¶ Small Business Conversation With Garrett Peters
Okay , everybody , welcome back to another episode of big talk about small business . I don't know what he's doing today . I don't know what he's on . Got me pumped up , bro . He just he's the guy's fired up and he's drinking Coke zero . So you don't even have any caffeine in that , eric . No , it was caffeine then , is it ?
Sure , yeah , it's got zero . Oh , it's got to be something good , something . You just learned that .
And now you should try them . Maybe I will . I can't stand artificial sweetener , though I just I can't . I ate it . I absolutely hate it . But anyway , yeah , it's like one molecule away from rat poison . Did you know that ? I did not know no way it is .
Really yeah .
It's almost identical in profile . That's why it tastes so good . Yeah , it does . They hook you .
Yeah , cool , everybody likes a little rat poison .
No , I saw this . I saw this article the other day , okay , online , and it was a 70 year old guy who has only consumed Coca-Cola for his entire life . He never had water . No way , that's what it said . How is he still alive , I know ? But he said the doctors keep telling him to drink water , but he stopped going to . He drinks coaccus . That's your oven .
That's your oven I love it .
Okay , is it the fully-wetted like full sugar ? I see you have teeth , that's so weird though .
When I worked at Byche Office as a kid , we used to use Coca-Cola to clean tires . Yeah , because the acid before we had Armoral , we used Coke Anyway .
Sponsor for Bill .
Speaking of , did you remember in science class they would throw teeth at it and just see how long it was before they rotted away ? Oh God , it was just terrible . Oh boy , anyway , that's a diversion . We've got a guest in the studio today , garrett Peters . Thank you for having me With me . Excited to be here . Duncan and Stone Paper Company . That's neat .
Always wear my hat so people know who you're right . They have no idea what Duncan and Stone Paper Company is , but they see the hat , but it's a classy name and it's a good logo .
Thank you , it is . I agree , I did a little reading . We like to discover our guests in the course of the show . It makes it a lot more fun and more interesting and more authentic yeah , more authentic , like our listeners , totally . Yeah , authentic . I like that word , thank you . It's a bit of a cliche today , but I still like it . I like him Genie .
I like everything Eric does . Thanks , thanks , why he sees the best . Thanks , buddy . It's always fun being here with him and it's going to be fun being with Garrett too . I can tell yeah .
So , garrett , before you tell us a little bit about yourself and Duncan and Stone Paper Company , I looked you guys up online and I saw was it your wife and her friend Were the ones who actually started the business . What's the story with that ? That's a great question , man .
But now you're the CEO , yeah , so a little background about me . So yeah , I got the title CEO somehow and we'll get to that at some point , I'm sure , but so Were they just trying to play ?
Yeah , okay , thank you , thank you , thank you , making you feel like you're okay . Yeah , yeah , basically , I'm sure you deal with it .
I'm sure it's a big deal with Garrett , deal with everything that happened . Oh , yeah , for sure , we're sure , we're sure . Relations , you're the CEO . You're like , oh sweet . And then you're like , whoa , this is not a .
CEO job . It's a bad job anyway , we have , I'm going to change my title .
We have been there . After this , I'm definitely changing my title . You can't please anybody and you'll never get any positive . That's not a problem . It's nothing but problems , okay .
And all the inslee when you went out with them . Yes , exactly . So tell us Enjoy running your own business . It's the first softball .
So Stephanie is my wife . We just celebrated 15 years yesterday . 15 year anniversary . Well , you've made it longer , I made two of mine , so Just appears . So
¶ Start Brand With Vision and Passion
, that says a lot . Stephanie is , she's the best and she is a the epitome of a dreamer , visionary , like starter , entrepreneur .
She's a real entrepreneur and early on in our marriage she had this vision that she wanted to figure out a way to get me out of my job so we could do our life together and kind of you know and have a life and have a life yeah .
That's freedom .
And it really was . It was probably in about 2015 or 16 . And we sat down . We had we had two young kids at the time . We have three boys today and at the time she was like what do we want our life to look like ? What do we want our every day to look like ? I like Stephanie , she's amazing . I wish she was here .
She will have to have her on at some point . But she was like let's define our why , what we want our kind of life to look like , and then we set down a path of how do we get there . And she was really on this , this journey of I want to get Garrett out of his like nine to five corporate job . What is fantastic , why she's the best one I know .
She's really looking out for him . She was like , and she was like I'm going to get this is my goal , I'm going to get my . And I didn't . It wasn't that I hated my job . I worked for some great companies a harvest group for a really long shirt , and I worked with , you know , at North Star way back in the day with Claybone .
I worked with Claybone , I worked with Clay and Rick and Henry and all these guys , amazing guys , and that's part of my journey is so Henry Ho . Where's Henry Ho ? Yeah , yeah , I am Rick West Clayville , love man . Yeah , amazing men and and we can get to some of how they shaped my vision for , like , starting my own business .
But basically back to your question , the original question . Stephanie and Sarah , her best friend , were dreaming of what could we do together . And then , and you know , fast forward to 2019 . They started this idea of Duncan and Stone , of could we create a brand that sold journals , gift double items , cards , et cetera . I think there's an opportunity here .
So we went all . We have four owners and four founders of the business . Sarah and Stephanie are kind of the front . You know the facing of the business and the kind of the vision of Duncan and Stone , and I came in early on and and and helped kind of start the business with them . And who's the other Rover man ? His name's Garlin . He has a full-time job .
He's just an owner , he doesn't work on it . He's a financial investor . He's kind of the finance yep investor and kind of he helps with some strategy and stuff like that and so , but not not really involved in the business .
So what made you all want to go in that business ? I mean , it just seems like that's a obviously a super mature market .
Yeah , so the the background is Sarah was running an Etsy business on the side , so she's a stay-at-home mom . They also have three kids as well , and she is running an Etsy business creating cards and mutations like design . She's an amazing designer . She designs all our products now and and still does .
She was running an Etsy business at the time and one of her one of her items was a set of pregnancy cards that she sold .
Hold on , gary , yeah , yeah , mark's got to check in on his oh , that's on his car . Oh , god Damn right , let's pull him up . Is he really , though ? Yeah , yeah .
I am .
I love that . I don't you I am . I'm sorry , bro , I won't do that again , don't be upset , don't be upset .
If we buy my wife a new car , I think I'm going to take her car myself , are you yeah ? Nice , that's nice , yeah .
Sweet , well why she knew new car , then that's nice one .
Because she likes performance . Oh wow , she's . Wow . I'm sure she does that was good bro . I like that it's not fast enough for her . I'm serious . She likes to go fast , all right , I like where the she's hiding .
Okay , so interview has . So here's the deal I don't have to derail this .
Go on , no , no , no , it's fine , I can , I can , I can , I can , I can talk . Thank you , you're right .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , this is fine . We're here to talk . Oh , so what's funny is what here's . What's funny is Sarah was selling these items on Etsy and she had . She was packing up these cards at night .
We were hanging out at their house as friends there's some of our best friends and we're like what is going on , Like your hand putting together these you know orders for people , and Stephanie and I are sitting here like there's got to be a better way to do this . Sure , and she's like it's getting to the point where she's working at night .
She's making shoes , a pair of yeah , she's like really grinding on her business . And so we were just going there might be something here . You clearly have a market for this .
And then we're also looking at other like items that we could create journals , keepsake items , giftable types of goods and we just went down a path in 2019 of going we kind of step back and said we don't want to just sell an item or two , Like we're just going to sell a couple items on Amazon or whatever it may be .
What if we created a brand that kind of housed all these different types of items and we formed the business in 2019 , Duncan and Stone . We had three items we started with and we launched in 2020 officially online . So our business is almost online today .
Are you selling only from your own website or do you sell on any other ?
site . We sell on Amazon . Okay , we sell on Etsy and our website and those are the three primary channels .
And early on , as a unknown brand , you know , at the time we made the decision , for better or worse , to launch on Amazon and so we set up the business that way , registered the brand , launched on Amazon as kind of our first big channel , and Amazon is still our biggest revenue channel today . So it's just keeps growing . It's just really growing .
We've debated it . We've debated it . I mean honestly , I'm just not sure we said to get very sensitive juice . Hey , we could . I love to talk about this .
I love to talk about this Stunch , stunch Walmart or Walmart . Really , I love Walmart , are you really ? Oh , I am Big time . Yeah , do you ?
I mean , the business is yeah , to be honest with you , it's one of those things that I'm like we've had so many other things that we've been working on over the years that I'm kind of like is it really worth it for me to go through the hassle of doing that ? Maybe it is .
I mean , I'm sure there's an argument to be made that it is , but we just haven't .
There are low company in our area . I know we love Walmart .
That's big I am .
Big fans yeah , yeah , yeah , but it does take effort and time right . Yeah , attention . Yeah , boy . It's kind of like when you know how and when do you do that ?
That's when Eric's business is . You know , was very instrumental in making Walmartcom viable . Yeah , yeah , we can talk about that . Yeah , we can go on that , yeah , we can get into that . So so Amazon , etsy and her own site , and it's hard driving traffic to your own site . Well it seemed like it is Got a great brand . I mean we have made you have .
Yeah , I mean it's . I appreciate that . It's amazing You've only been in business since 2019 .
Yeah , yeah , and I think that that , early on , the reason we started with Amazon is to say , hey , we wanted to reach as many people as we could initially , right , so like , let's get our name out there .
Now , I wish that we would have been smart enough or had the know how or partners to be like let's build a direct to consumer business through your website first . Yes , that would have been , that would have been amazing . We just didn't know what that was going to look like or how to do that the right way . And we make it expensive too .
Yeah , like customer acquisition costs and how to do all that . But it's hard , you know , over the last couple of years in particular , we've really made a big shift to drive more traffic through our website , work on SEO type of things , email marketing , sms . We've always done ads , so Google ads , you know , facebook , Instagram ads .
But I have a figure that out myself , the formula on that yeah , We've turned .
I mean you guys could probably teach me a little . Well , I have worked with a lot of people that know how to do it , I mean . So that was one thing that we really did early on was we looked at what our team it was good at .
Yeah , things like Sarah being the creative director , the kind of brand voice , me being just a guy that would get stuff done on the business , set up stuff . There was the marketing side customer acquisition , email marketing , google ads it was all that . We have an agency that does it now .
Yeah , so for a long time , a local company called Vanquish Media Adam Adam Fight is his name shout out Adam . He's a great guy . He helped us get all that stuff set up early on . I think we just shifted everything to an agency that does our SEO , ads and email marketing . Okay , so they did it all together . He's still working with Adam .
We don't work with Adam anymore . No , yeah , yeah , we moved on from him , but he was super helpful for us .
So where's the business now ? Like , how big are you guys ? What are you ? Where are you going with it ?
Yeah , I mean we did , you know , in 2020 , we did about $300,000 in revenue . Okay , 2020 , 2021 , we about tripled and did not quite a million , but close to a million . Yeah , in 2022 , we did a couple of million dollars in sales in 2022
¶ Growing a Business With Close Friends
. And last year we did like three and a half . God love you . We did like three and a half million . Thank you , congratulations . That's fantastic , man . So at this point , I mean it's amazing , like the fact that our business keeps growing the way it does is just incredible with the small team of four and that's great .
You know , we ran the business out of our house for multiple years and so we are so thankful for like where it's at . I mean , I think that there's a good chance we get hit $5 million this year in revenue . I think that's like when we're headed , oh , it's wonderful and I love it . That's fantastic .
So last year we sold like 120,000 orders or something last year .
Wow , that's insane . What's the ratio ? So you said Amazon's Amazon stills . Is that like at 60% , yep ?
60% is Amazon , but 20% is at sea and about 10% is our website . And then a little bit for wholesale . We have a wholesale business as well . Yeah , yeah . So we sell the stores city supply and Fayetteville , you know , white's , mercantile and Nashville , places like that , right Cool stores the hip , totally yeah .
Yeah , so what's ? Can I ask , like , what's the legal form of organization ? Did you set it up as a corporation ? Is it as a corporation ? Yeah , okay , good .
Yeah , that's the when we , when we were in 2019 , when we were dreaming about this thing , my , my idea was , like I was coming into this , like I'm interested in trying to start something , Like my view was , I've been around great business owners , entrepreneurs Ross Cully , Bill Wakesman , Dan Arsberg , all these amazing men who are like starters and built , built
these amazing businesses . Right , I was just always like I kind of want to do that . Yeah , there's something in me that wants to do that . Sure , I had we get it . You know , you guys , I'm speaking to the crowd . Yeah , we totally understand , Like . So .
So when I was like , hey , we're going to sell Prompti Keepsake journals I didn't even know what that meant . It wasn't like that meaningful for me at the time was like I don't really care what it is .
That's a huge passion for that .
But I'm just want to see if we can create something Like what , what would that look like ? And I was just always like intrigued by that . And so , you know , when we started , I was like , let's just figure out how to start a business together , yeah , and ? And so back to your question .
There were some of our best friends and actually , when I got feedback from mentors of mine , they were all kind of like I don't know if you should do that . Right , proceed with caution . You know what I'm saying Proceed with caution . And I was real hesitant about it , honestly , because I was .
What I didn't want to do was like ruin a friendship , a deep friendship that we have just to start a business , right . And so we spent a lot of time really like wrestling through what it looks like , what does an ownership look like , what does roles look like , what is the vision of where we're going , before we even had a product .
Good , and just the feedback I got was like set it up the right way , yeah , don't just willy nilly , thank you , do something . Exit plan Get , get with the lawyer , yeah , set the bylaws , set the corporation up , all the other things , all the stuff .
And my team Shareholder , yeah , yeah , shareholder , all the stuff , and I was like I didn't know about any of that and they're all like this seems like a lot of work , like doing all this stuff and it was . It was kind of cumbersome , but I was like we need to have this in place .
Yes , because in a few years , let's just say it's like this thing blows up and now somebody's like hey , you know , I'm having some like tension here , you know . So , anyway , we set it up as an escort Excellent , early on . So glad .
Yeah , we just talked about that last week , I guess , or week before last where everybody , just they go to their attorneys , they go well , you need an LLC , and they set up an LLC and then they've got an LLC operating agreement that requires everyone to agree on everything yeah , with no buyback provisions , no valuation methodology yeah , and it blows up damn near
every single time . I do . Yeah , it's like you know . I think we were saying it's like lawyers or a dentist has given away Mary Janes or something so they can rip your feelings out . I mean , it's just the worst possible thing you could do .
I think there's something to be said about setting it up the right way , you know , obviously there is , I mean , and so it's worked out well . You guys are all still together , we are yeah , we've had some .
We've had some , you know , obviously , challenges along the way . Sure , sure , relationally , I think that I was more so concerned about what our friendship relationship was going to look like versus Stephanie and I , like our marriage was we had done some things together . We worked well together , like oh , was that concerned about it ?
But sure , I think that one of the things that that we really struggle with the first few years was how overwhelming it could be , like we talked about this all the time .
You're successful , Well it was .
It was like you know , it can become yeah , exactly , it's like it . Just it can become overwhelming , like we're talking about it every time . Every time we're hanging out with them , it's like talking about the business . What do we got to do ? And so we had to eventually draw just some more clear boundaries around .
Let's talk about the business throughout the day . If there's a need to do something at night , we can , but let's just be friends at night . Yeah , you know so . Yeah , these are our business . My business partners are some of our best friends . Like we literally are taking vacations with them and doing stuff like that .
So Awesome , yeah , that's great If you can , if you can keep that intact and have a successful business . Yeah , I mean , it's funny in business like it's just nothing , but problems are either good or bad . Yeah , you know , but don't , don't expect it's not going to always be a problem .
Yeah , because the business starts going down and you have that type of stress and your friendship , but a big growl is like Mark was saying .
Yeah , well , that's a different stress , but it's a stress .
I'll tell you the . So I was running the business when we started the business in 2020 , let's say , we launched in , you know , february 2020 , right , it's like the world was shutting down . It was a wild season . That's exactly what it was . Our kids were at home where we just launched . Well , we get to the end of that year , first of 2021 .
And I was so stressed like we are , you know I'm we're fulfilling orders out of our garage and we're following up with customers after the holidays . We're like all this stuff is going on . I have a full-time job working for someone else , and I walked into our kitchen one day first of the year in 2021 . And I was super stressed .
I'm like I don't know what to do and Stephanie looked at me . She was at me . She was like you need to quit your job , which I was not expecting that to happen at all . I was like what are you talking about ? I just wanted to talk about the stress of it . I'm like how is it ? I'm not ready to do that .
And she goes no , I'm looking at our numbers for the year . Like we had a great . We had a great holiday . You know we're . We're continuing to see momentum on every day we're getting more and more orders . I'm like she's like we can do this . You need to quit your job .
Like she's thinking in her mind this my dream could be coming true of my husband can now work for like her own business and we can , you know , build our life this way . And I was like I don't think that's a good idea .
Like we're not making money on the business , right , you can't keep up your six figure , yeah , and I'm like , yeah , and I'm like we have a , we have a , I have a great job . You know all this stuff . And I was like Stephanie , we don't make any money . We don't make the money . Don't let us get in the way .
We don't . You should be spending four times what you make Exactly . It doesn't matter . Don't let that yeah .
And so what's ? What's funny is , don't let that stop you . I was like , how are we going to live ? We have three kids at the house , like what are we doing ? And um , and so , anyway , we , I said , I'll take , I'll take the rest of the day . I literally took the rest of the day off , called a couple of my good friends , met with some people .
We met as a team that night , as an ownership team , and basically I told them either I have to completely stop working on this side , hustle business and or or I'm like go all in on it , like those are the options . And everyone basically unanimously said we need you to do that , we need you to help , like move , like do the business .
No one else on our team was wanting to do that and so I was like , sweet , I get to run the business now . Okay , well , that set me on 2021 was a complete disaster . Yeah , oh , just the worst left my job in January to 21 .
So let's talk real quick on that . Yeah , that decision . Yeah , like you met with your team , mm . Hmm , unanimous that you should come in and do that . How soon did you make the decision the next day ? So I want to point something out . I think it's so important Decisiveness .
Amen , brother , decisiveness and action , and as side and act .
It is actually I've been to kind of study , restudy a little bit , just from different materials it is the antidote and the killer to passivity . Yes , passivity is what kills about every person and every business , and it's the leaning leg of non-productivity and freaking . Yeah right , all the nastiness of humanity . Decisiveness , though I will love that fact .
Yep , so you don't have to do a gosh . Dang freaking market analysis to the side if you should quit or not . Well , I know , either go shit or get off the pot , yeah . Go fake or go go for it or not . That's really good , right . Get in or get out of my face , yeah .
Yeah , exactly .
Like it's , it's a big deal . I think that I don't know . I mean , you'll probably look at that decision and probably that's probably why you make makes you a good CEO too . Yeah , being , yeah , totally .
Well , I think that for me it was a . It was a really simple equation because I said I'm going to give this a year , like what ? It was risky in a lot in some ways , but we had already been selling product , we'd already been like the business was going Right . That's the reason I I , so we started .
It was like , hey , let's see if this could work and then let's go all in . And so I said I told Stephanie , I was like let's take a year , like if , for whatever reason , it just doesn't grow like we think it should , or could we go back Then ? I'll go back , I'll call some of my friends and get a job somewhere else .
Sure , I mean how hard is that ? That's another thing . Confidence , decisiveness , confidence I mean those are big things that I don't think . That I think , when we think about the people listening , you're so true . So many people out there that went , yes , what you wanted , your wife wanted , but they don't have the confidence or the decisiveness to make that call .
And the reality is is that when time came in , duty called , you made the decision to step up , which is another thing . You went into uncharted territory for yourself , yeah , which requires confidence .
You know , I grant long and biojail us a quote recently from Bezos that was something to the effect of , like you'll never have enough information to make a decision . No , that's okay , and if you had 40% of the information , you're lucky . You know , but if you make a bad decision , the whole key is you make a new decision quickly .
Yeah , all right , but it's always cheaper than not making a decision and not acting good . Yeah , it's really good . It's so true , because it's always cheaper than not , absolutely .
Yeah , one of the good quotes is like the worst decision is not making one .
Yeah , yeah that's good , that's really good
¶ Leadership Growth and Balancing Understanding
. This is why and again , I'm a big fan of formal education . Okay , I got my MBA . I used every single bit of what I learned . However , that said , I do think that it encourages analysis paralysis to a certain extent . All right , because you always think , well , I need more information . Everything's a data driven decision . It's a big cliche .
Okay , you'll never have all the data . You won't . You got to go on gut feeling . It's growing , you do . All right , we're going , let's do this . Go , go , go , go , go , it's going . Go for it . Yeah , but let me see . But if I project out our growth in a straight line , what will the bottom line be ?
And will that replace my full salary and all the benefits I get ? No , it's not going to for a while . Yeah , okay , yeah , probably .
Yeah .
Well , what's about it ? Howdy you know ? We got credit cards , honey . We got credit cards and a card , all on general mode . Yes , yes , we got credit cards , we got credit cards . That's it , that's it , that's our time .
I've always called credit cards before we're retired , right , it's . You know , I get it up front . It's my retirement up front . That's hilarious . Thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you , thank it .
That's so funny .
But you did it , you survived . Yeah , that one's going straight on .
But here's what's funny , though is like when I left and we talked we mentioned this earlier , maybe before we started was I had a couple of things happen , like in 2021 . I was so wired around my schedule , the tasks , the you know the goals , the corporate kind of environment that I came from .
I spent a lot of time working with Walmart and Sam's , you know buyers and merchandising and stuff , and if you said you got to get , if it says you're going to hit a certain date , you better hit the date , oh , you're dead , you're not in the store , yeah , it doesn't matter . So , like there's deadlines and you have to meet those things .
Well , I'm coming into our business now as the CEO , head wrangler of Duncan and Stone and I'm like guys , what are we going to do ? Like we got to hit these deadlines , we got to do this , we got to do that . And Sarah and Stephanie were looking at me like whoa , bro , you need to settle down . They're staying at home .
Moms , our youngest kids are still at the house . They're like this is a true side business for me . Like I don't have the time for you to be a psychopath with like the intensity You're breaking .
I can't wait till people hear this , okay .
I mean , I was just . I was a maniac because in my mind I'm like I I just had this thing of we got to get this done . We got to figure this out . We got to grow , we got to build this thing , we got to do this Everything that I'm reading stuff about in e-commerce businesses . I didn't . I don't know what to do .
I'm not an expert , but I know what they're telling me to do and so dang it . We got to do those things , yeah , and ? And my team is like dude , you're freaking , doing too much and pushing people to the heart . So we had a lot of conversations and I was super stressed . I'm like we're not , we're not getting anything done .
You know , I just was , my wheels were spinning and I'm now like a entrepreneur quote , quote , unquote , whatever that means , and I don't know what the heck is going on . And it was just , it was the worst . It's like , literally by the end of that year , I was like being a business owner sounds amazing . Working for my business sucks .
This is not sustainable for me . Because I was grinding , I was just doing everything . I was doing . Fulfillment I was doing . You name it , you name it , it was coming through . That's what you do when you're small though . Yeah and I think I've heard you guys talk about that before you go on here is like that's just .
That was the life stage that we were in , you know , the first year or two of our business , right ? It's like , yeah , gotta figure it out , right ? The reality , though , for me was how much just relational damage that was causing within our team , within my friends , just within my own mental state of like this is overwhelming .
I remember , specifically leaving a meeting that we all had , and it was toward the end of the year , and here's what was going on . We were celebrating the growth , because we were growing , like I said , we'd like tripled the first , the second year , or something in revenue . We were . We were celebrating as a team .
Our team was like , oh man , we've had , we're having a great year , yay . And I was looking at this like I'm just busted my butt to get this growth and I don't feel very excited about this . I'm like so we did $900,000 ? Like that's nothing it did , but you tell me what's that ?
You're like wall rower . Yeah , I'm like what ? That's nothing . I'm like what are we doing ? We're coming from nothing . That's pretty damn impressive , I know , yeah , sure .
But I'm just thinking about the . You know we're well . Another person on our team is like well , let's start talking about what taxes we're going to pay this year and all these other things . I'm like , well , how are we talking about this ? I've just killed myself for the year and now I'm about to go pay a bunch of taxes . Like what the heck ?
This business sucks . I don't want to do this . You know it'll get past that .
It really it began to like clearly there were significant issues and things we needed to change moving forward if we were going to scale Duncan and Stone , and it really helped clarify heading into 2022 , like what we needed to do differently and how I needed to change kind of my perspective as well . You know , through that it was tough .
I think when you're talking about that , I mean I can relate to that and as you're a CEO , you know business owner leading other people . So you got to have a team that's grateful about the work that they've done , which is a fantastic culture .
Yeah , which is one of the most is my opinion , the most important thing of a company and organization is to have a culture that is grateful and passionate about what they're doing . Yeah , you know , and they're growing and they're developing , but then you have this CEO that it's not good enough .
Yeah , you know , and , but I think that's true , but there , I think there's like what it seems like you learn was like there was this , there's this balance , there's just there's this way to check yourself , mm-hmm , because , as in that leadership position here , I Know I've checked myself a million times , I've been like where I've been , like wigging out in the
way I'm thinking , but having the ability to stop Yep , and get objective and grateful and thankful , yes , people , you got the progress you may . Yes , resting in that , yeah , that's good , you know , you know work .
Yeah , we had to have . Oh , it's so good , that's really good .
And I think that the I Just had to step back and like yeah , and just talk to our team very transparently to say , hey , when you celebrate , even publicly or with friends , like , hey , our businesses triple this year , yay , I Hear that as like you're taking the credit for this thing that's been built , but I feel like I've basically been the one building that .
Not say that doesn't necessarily mean that that's rational , right ? You know I'm saying sure , like hey , I know that we've been cuz takes , takes Sarah , for example , who's our creative director and the brains behind the brand . She's also going . I feel like I've created , I've been the one that's been grinding to build this business .
Sure , working at nights , when I don't really want to work full-time on the business and now I do so it was like just really setting down , sitting down as a team , to say , hey , this is how I feel about this . I know this probably isn't accurate , but like I still feel this way . It's like , okay , thank you for sharing that .
Like let's talk about , can just you ? Let's get to the bottom of that and maybe make some adjustments Can .
I oh sorry , can you ? You can do it both again . Hey , I'm you , go first , eric .
So this means a lot to me , mm-hmm , because , like my experience when we got , when we build white spider up and we sold , you know , people would come and say how does it feel to sell your bait right as a , as a founder of that company , I Can legitimately say like it did not feel that way , like I had at some point early on , like probably the first two
years it was my baby , you know , and I was just so driven by that , yeah . But I came to a point where I had , like , by the time we had sold that company at , was so far away from being my identity and I was literally , I believed in this brand and what this entity and this identity of this company was , which was encompassing Everyone .
Like it's an organization . Yeah , it was an organization . Like it , right , like , and so there was no piece of me that went away with that or that went along with that . It was Like it , but on the flip side of it , it was really come . It's been really confusing to ever really Feel like that I contributed .
If you talked to my wife , like he might have had a problem of recognizing that I was actually even valuable to the company . Of course you're in the spark plug , yeah , but I could . I cannot relate yet like mentally , like I had , I had , I Guess I had what would you call it ?
You had , you know , I had humbled my Myself over and over and over and over again to such a , to such a level that I didn't even know what my contribution to the company was . Wow , and while we're rebuilding it , grow in and so yeah , I think that's a barrier .
That's a big problem with a lot of companies . Who that sell is the buyers don't really appreciate what the founder did over . Okay , my brother can talk a lot about that . You know he's been involved in buying hundred . That's what agency's WPP ?
Yeah , it was the the chairman of the health care and specialized communication companies for them , but anyway , and his buddy is you know . Oh , what are the two big ad agencies ? Piblises , omnicon ? No , the one that they had J Walter Thompson is Fred , yes , the CEO of that . He's always talking about you know that .
But anyway , I wanted to go back and ask you or make a comment . Well , I think you know what you pointed out was One reason why companies need to grow is because you're not gonna be good at everything .
You can't do everything , and if you commit to a growth vision , Not only can everybody else get closer to what they do best , but you can , you know , and you can get , you can Offload , start off loading . Some of the things that you don't like is yeah , you're aren't as good at you and I think that's a really big deal .
That that you know , people need to understand . Sometimes , I think a small business center Thanks . Well , I can't grow because I'm doing all I can do right now , and if I grow , that makes it worse . Yeah , you see what I mean , but in reality it could go the other way . It could make it a lot better for you , sure yeah , because you can .
if you're smart about it , you can isolate yourself out of the things that you don't enjoy .
exactly like , really just good , yeah , yeah yeah , yeah , a friend of mine who's who has been a mentor of mine as well over the years . His name's Mike Harvey . He's a guy that works at harvest group , one of the key leaders at heart risk here locally and been there for a long time . Amazing man and Don't know it's .
He'd follow him on LinkedIn because he writes almost every day about some sort of you know Kind of life or business thing . Very , very insightful
¶ Entrepreneurial Grit and Sacrifice
guy . I met with him recently and he was like hearing some of the story of our , of our business and just kind of my journey , and he said something that was really interesting and he basically equated it to you have been in the trenches and developed the grit .
Like those first few years of building the business was you guys just developing real resiliency and grit and just the backbone of this thing , like you were gonna make it happen and thankfully it's like we were working hard . But also there's luck involved . There's things that just happen outside of our control for us to continue to grow .
And what he was describing is most people don't see all that . Most people see the small two , three percent that you show on social media or you're posting about . Yay , like you grew and you keep doubling . Yay , business is awesome , but they don't see the grind .
Oh , yeah , of course . Yeah , the overnight success that happened took 30 years .
And it really struck for me because the point he was making was like most people don't push through that , there's this . It's hard to do that , to continue , even when you're struggling the first year or two .
You know , it's really interesting because I you know , Eric and I are owners in this motorcycle manufacturing business and I mean , I'm involved with it on a daily basis . It's like a really big time commitment for me . But in any case , we talk a lot about failures in the industry . Several electric motorcycle makers have failed recently .
They all have this one thing in common , though it's like they blew through $77 million worth of capital . You know our 120, . It's like , yeah , when you have too much capital , it's a bad thing , because you don't force yourself to have the discipline to do what you really need to do to build the system .
So the thing is actually gonna work because you have no resources whatsoever , and if you can push through that , okay , then you set the stage to have a successful company later that actually functions as a business . These other people just burn through cash . They ever develop that discipline , and then it all blows in . It's like , oh , it failed , of course .
Okay , wow , like a lot of the , it's not a blessing .
They have a lot of money . They have a very successful business . Yes , they don't do well , it's true , a lot of them . Or when you win the friggin' lottery and you blow up your money because you don't have the wisdom in the discipline yes , that's good .
Yeah , if you can push through that with no resources , like you're saying , and do an every job and get yourself past that , you set the stage with a platform that's good . Now the potential is far greater . I mean because if you look at where you are right now , it's a three and a half million dollar business . You know what . It's not that hard to visualize .
You can get a $35 million business . Yeah , that'd be nice . And then what's that ? That'd be nice yeah .
Might have a CF Roll . What is CF Roll , I'm gonna ask ? Definitely need to be out of the business .
And we're gonna do that . And then what's that company worth ? Okay , and then what are your options ? I know , yeah , yeah .
Well , I think there's something about , like , I love meeting with people locally , or they wanna start something , or they're working on this side business or whatever . I love that , I love the early , I love ideas , I love that early stage . But what I tell them is I'll ask them questions about their life . Hey , what does your life look like ?
What do you do at nights ? Right , are you watching shows , mm-hmm ? Are you just binging and chilling ? Well , if you are , if you are , then there's just no way you're gonna put in the time and energy necessary to grow something if you're truly passionate about it . Wait a minute .
I can work from six till nine pm , and then I can turn on my house , then you can yeah , hey , yeah , maybe that's fine , do both .
Yeah that nine to the 11 , you're only TPS .
Yeah , if you're already working and you eat that in there too . Yeah , if you're lucky .
Well , I think that , and that's just . It's different . Not everybody needs to go start a business . No , nobody needs to do it . That's not right for everybody , it's like it's not right for everybody .
The supportive spouse is a really big part of it . Yes , parents who support you is a big part of it . Yep , I mean , I think you're right . There's a lot of factors and you really need to understand , like , what kind of a life Wiring ? How much are you willing to sacrifice ? Are you willing to get rid of your $70,000 test ?
Yes , buy a $5,000 piece of crap car ? Yeah , if you need to . You know what I mean . It's what it all comes down to , like how much are you willing to give it ? Do you have the support system of some people that care about you ? Yeah , yeah , I , I , yeah , you're right , though that's start asking those questions .
Yeah , that can be a lot of reason . Like all these startups that go out and raise capital they don't have in . They never make a sacrifice . They don't have a support system with just 100% financial support they do . Yeah , or even mentor support of people that are the investors . Like that's kind of not what you really need as an entrepreneur .
Yeah , right , the one that's running stuff . Yeah , as always , going to your investor group to only get advice there and support . Like they , because they they hear if they sense your weakness . Yeah .
They're going to have a different idea for your business . Yeah .
Oh , what do you mean ? You're ? What do you mean ? You haven't been sleeping for three days .
You've got to be careful about asking them . Yeah , that sounds terrible , by the way . Well , yeah , you're right , man , you're really right about that .
Smell that weakness . Yeah , they do . Mm-hmm , yeah they don't .
Yeah , they do . That's why it's good not to bring them in and tell them you're done , got it All right . Well , you avoid outside investors like the play yeah , so you absolutely can't help it . And then , if you do , you got to get people who are really going to actually be helpful to your business . Yeah , yeah .
Obviously another time to get investors . If you're , if you're , if you knowingly are prepared to play that game , mm-hmm yeah , like if you go in with it with the right mindset , right yeah , you can be really successful as well . You know what I'm saying ? This is what this money is , and this is my role with this and that's what my duty is for them .
Yeah , right , well , good , outside investors can be very helpful . But you're right , because you do have a duty to them Absolutely . And just because their money's entirely at risk doesn't mean you can be cavalier with it , yeah , or feel like it's not your responsibility . Yeah , to make that a good investment for them , hell yeah , that's your job .
That is your job and you owe them that If I pay you , if I give you a hundred thousand dollars , yeah , and I'm expecting you to make money for me , that's a high responsibility . And if you're going around like , oh , I don't have any risk in this , yeah , it ain't gonna work well man .
No , that's going to end ugly .
Yeah , and that's what a lot of them do .
I know I can't understand that . I it , just it's not in my makeup . I feel the responsibility to perform .
Just like you . Well , especially with your friends . Yeah , you got your wife involved . Oh , yeah , a lot of people . We have family .
Well , you're a family business , family income now .
That's 100% . It does
¶ Building a Sustainable Business Asset
. It depends , yeah , stress , I don't know , I don't know .
I don't know . You guys are stressed out now . Yeah , I'm stressed out now . Well , no , I think there's the reality of that is something we talk about as a team . Multiple times throughout the year , we sit down and we'll have a couple off sites to talk through vision where we go in the next year . Where are we like ?
Yeah , we usually go through a handful of specific questions every time just to make sure we're on the same page , because and it's changed a little bit over the years , for sure , but generally where we are going in the same direction .
But the point being , like , if someone on our team is , like , let's have an exit , like let's just sell this Now , well , we need to talk about that . We need to like , do you want to do that ? Like , what is that going to look like ?
And so , but what we found is the way I think about it now is we're trying to build an asset , like we're trying to build something that's sustainable .
You're thinking like an entrepreneur . Now , that's not just what money you make from it . Yeah , it's like .
I want to build something that is a desirable , sustainable thing . If somebody wants to buy us , then like that would be awesome one day , but at the same time , we're also like finally like enjoy running a business . Right , you're just .
It's so like I don't want to get rid of this thing Way too early . This is amazing yeah way too early , You're yeah .
Yeah , keep going . I think really was in comparison . Yes , I think so . I mean to have goal settings , visual discussions like listen , make sure they're all in alignment .
Wow .
You know what I was . You know ? First one I'd be like I don't give a shit what you think , Mark , this is the right way to do it , and you would have been like I hate you , I hate you . What are you talking about ?
Well , listen that we got along we , other than the fact that Eric wants black and chrome on everything . There's really no , there's no other disagreement . I just there's no highlights , though you use that your graphic design . Well , yeah , okay , you know what I mean . That's the only thing .
I , because she's younger , you know , he said product at the nine layers , that's hilarious .
Yeah , bronze , that's the difference . That's the difference . Freaking reggae's machines . I can see that . Your dog , your fauna , what I love , that that's what I grew up in . That's amazing . That's a veteran using time in the world . Oh man , that's the best . I mean , who else ? I'm forgetting somebody , I'm sure .
Sound garden Yep Allison Chains what ?
Thank you . Yes , thank you , that's my favorite name . Yes , dude , have you ? Allison Chains came to the amp a couple of years ago . I didn't go . Yeah , you know , of course Lane's not around . Yeah Right , I went there with zero expectation . I was like my boy Lane's gone , I'm just gonna go because it's a change . You know what's the guitar player's name ?
I can't remember his name . Anyway , I knew he was still doing it .
Anyway , I'm gonna go . It's a foreign language . I don't even know what song Allison Chains did .
Well , because you young guys carry on . I got into that show and , dude , it was freaking fantastic , was it ?
They played Slutch Factory . I mean Mark's like amazing .
Slutch Factory . You know what I'm saying . That's like in South Fand though you know what I'm saying when we have the sewage treatment play . No , I don't know . I don't know what that is , can we ? You guys are too much .
Yeah , I wanna , let's look , because we won't be more probably get close to time . So show us show everyone .
Listen , we sell all sorts of stuff . When we started the business , we sold . This is one of our early items . This is like a childhood keepsake book , so it's called Dear Son , it's a Can I see what ? Yeah , you can look around . Look around at them . This is a newer item . It's like a baby's first year , baby's first year .
So our brand is really built on bringing families together , capturing memories , all of that sort of thing . So you sort of organize this . Where people can put so many of your looking things Is like a birth to 18 years old childhood keepsake . Nice Is a first year , baby's first year book . You and I have got to talk about it .
It's fantastic , okay , sweet , I love it .
We're gonna make let's see how the ends .
So yes , yeah . Jillian . But here's the deal After when we launched , we kept getting more . This is one of our most popular items . That's a legacy journal right there . That's like a family keepsake family or a life story keepsake book .
So you know , what we found was like customers were giving us all sorts of great feedback Like I really want , like can you guys do one for our engagement , for our anniversaries , all this stuff .
They're giving you all the ideas the customers were just giving us feedback , sure .
And so now , and we've been , yeah , customer feedback , customer feedback .
Yeah , look at this one Problem answer . I can say that's worth $1 million . I mean $100 billion .
And so now what started is like you know , my what's funny man is like we have I have some of my good friends . Some of my friends are like are you still selling , like baby books and stuff like that ? I'm like , yes , yes , we do sell , we do , yeah , I do sell a lot of baby books , you know so . But we sell all sorts of stuff now .
We have reading journals , we have travel journals , we have recipe books , all sorts of Well , they're Keep your articles . Thank you , enduring , enduring , and I can take literally zero credit for the way all this looks . Our team is amazing .
Like Sarah and Stephanie , it's very tasty the way that they built all of our products were like we want something that's timeless . It is , I mean , very well done , beautiful quality , something that you would want to sit out and people to look at .
And also like that's just very nice . It's a cool thing , like for the bait , I mean for all of it . You look at it and it's identifiable as that capsule . Yeah yeah , like you're a kid you see that light out and then you grow up , you know you got your house and you come you know , there's all the things that you actually want .
Yeah , exactly , you know what I mean , cause all the rest of it is well Meaningless .
Art art , art . Our design team is phenomenal .
It is meaningless .
It is though .
I mean it's everything is meaningless . It's . Yeah , this is like .
The one thing I'm gonna like is like I saw him and saw my house about that fire .
I'm gonna grab this . You better keep your duck and stone .
Okay , I'm giving my duck and stone back . The rest of it , that's it . That's it , but I'll run through fire , I will risk my life .
I need that sort of feedback on our last class You're gonna take . We're gonna give you a clip of this . Yeah , and just say I would risk my life for a duck and stone memory book . Yes , I will run through fire and floods , let's go .
Yeah , I don't need my mom's area . Hey , I don't need my mom's 30 year old couch . I don't need her bed upright . Let's do that stuff Wall , nut , piano , where we're gonna wanna remember what your kids were doing when they were . But I do want this . Exactly , okay , exactly . My phone all the photos I took from him got lost . That's the best .
They have the cloud back then , okay .
That's the best like yeah Brand , you know , video we could ever do is what you just said . What ?
you said Thank you for that . Yeah , really , Really , I'm not sponsored by so many .
I like to hey Talks for 47.5% ownership yeah , so funny , so funny . And a 7% royalty Rolteo , I feel like it's like Shark Tank . I know that's the way these guys are . Are you , mr Wonderful ? No , no , no , I'm not . I'm not , it should be .
I do like that guy though , actually , even though you would be that , kevin , even though people give him a hard time , he might really mark you .
He'd be like he makes a lot of sense and the work is like I tell you what . I'm not ready to give you equity , or to give you percentage to get equity , but I will make you a forever lifetime royalty of two and a half percent . Yes , what is ?
that like it's insane . It's like where did you get that valuation number ? That's my favorite one . Funny , where did you get that ? Where did you fill up with that valuation ? Yeah , like , how do you suck ?
But however I will . It's worth $1 million , yeah .
Yeah , well , it's been great having you here . We could talk all day . Yeah , we could Cause it's really been fun and you seem like a really solid guy . You got a great company . Thank you , and again , this is exactly the kind of company and person we like to have on the show here , absolutely man , and it's been a pleasure .
Thank you , guys . I love what you're putting out there .
You laid out today that you can do it and maybe you shouldn't do it right ? Yeah , some really nice little points , man , and congrats on your success . Thank you , man , appreciate it . I think you have a great team of people that you can leave listeners with that are thinking about starting .
If I could leave you with one thing , it's just try it . Just try it . If you're thinking about it . I mean , I love hearing stories of people that said you know what I'm gonna see ? If this works , let's try something . And if it fails , it fails . That doesn't define you .
It could be something , though , like when we started our business for five years we'd be selling hundreds of thousands of orders . Yeah , you know , that wasn't on our radar , but we had the gumption to go let's try something and see if there is a possibility of something here , and with wisdom . You know , I didn't quit my job day one when we had this idea .
Right , exactly , I was like , hey , let's see if this could work . You saw if you got some traction , and then from there so I think that you said it earlier of like the decisiveness , you know , if you have something you wanna pursue and you feel strongly about it , make a decision to do something , do it Go do it .
So I just thought of a new product my startup journal . Oh listen , my startup journal , don't you ?
think that would be good , it would be really good . I would spend the time that actually rotted it Well by testing it . You got now cocky , almost my startup journal .
They are journal , but no , I mean I thought that was fantastic , that could be cool . Well , could you put coals in there ? You're all like , yeah , mm .
Yep , another idea we expect a full . We can do a partnership , we could do a co-branding Ooh , co-branding .
Well , we could sponsor big talk about small business and then people who sign up for the get a discount , trying to get a startup journal In royalties , and then we get 12.5 . 12.5 , 12% of every sale . No , all right . Thanks , guys , and Garrett , it's been great having you here , and unfortunately we're out of time , and so we will see you all next week .
Until then , this has been another episode of Big Talk About Small Business . And look up Duncan and Stone . Give it a search , check them out online and buy their products .
Please do All right , appreciate it . Thank you guys , thank you , thank you , thank you .
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