¶ Founder of Ozark Integrated Circuits Interview
Hey everybody , we're back with another episode of Big Talk about Small Business and thankfully , my partner , eric Howardton , is back this week . Well , thanks , mark .
I appreciate you busting me out about not being here last week . When I was here last week ?
No , you were , or was that the week before ?
Must have been the week before . Okay , yeah , because I was late last week . Okay , is that it ?
Well , anyway , yeah , I had to do one of these by myself , and it's always more entertaining with Eric here . Well , thank you . I appreciate that so and hopefully informative as well .
Hopefully . So I mean , I have opinions , you do have that .
Just of course , everyone has them , as they say . I won't get into what that old adage is about opinions Right , but anyway , no , they're good opinions . But we also have a guest with us today .
Matt Francis , who is the founder and president of Ozark Integrated Circuits , is here with us today and I met Matt like maybe a year or two ago and I was impressed with the guy . He's very interesting guy . Congratulations , matt .
You impressed , mark . Well , it was a large walk .
Actually , specifically Mark said at our first visit you're weird . Well , I like you .
Yeah , exactly , we value nonconformity here in our personal and business relationships , and you certainly have done that , and your business is a very unique business that we'll get into in a little bit . But so , matt , why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself ? Where did you grow up and how did you get into what you do ? Well , sure , thanks , mark .
Well , pleasure to be here with you . Yeah , so I grew up all over . I'm a child of aerospace so nice . So I was born in Michigan . We lived in New Jersey for several years . My dad actually started installing radios down for Falcon Jet and Little Rock , so both my parents are from Arkansas .
I used to actually work with them back in the round 1983 Falcon Jet from a facility standpoint and it was cool People don't realize they were French jets . They flew them over here with a pack of instrumentation that they would take out and take back over and fly another one and they still do that to this day , so yeah .
so my dad knocked on the door in the 70s and said there's a job for a draftsman . He interviewed and they said well , you're not qualified , but you want to work on airplanes . Oh , cool and so he ended up .
That gives me a lot of faith in us whites . You want to work on the wings ?
Yeah , so he ended up working his way up to being the charge of spares for North America . So that's how we ended up . I was born in Michigan and then we moved to New Jersey and he did that there .
So I spent my first six years in New Jersey , Then we moved to Texas where he was a national tech rep for them , and then we moved up to Tulsa where he I know you're on the shocking went to go work at a startup .
Well , we either follow the lead of our parents or we do the exact opposite .
Yeah . So I don't think I understood it was a startup , it was just another job it was . And so I actually kind of grew up around airplanes . And that was a company in Tulsa still there Bizjet that refurbishes and does maintenance on business jets .
So that's probably where I got the bug for what part of what Ozark does , which is aerospace , is growing up around engine shops and things like that . And then when it came time to go to college , I was well , I was growing up in Oklahoma .
I was all set to go be a cowboy at Oklahoma State and this John White guy offered me a Chancellor's Scholarship to the U of A and so I was in a class there in the late 90s and then stuck around at the Walton Fellowship and the rest of sort of history .
So now you got three degrees in total , didn't you ? No , I got four degrees . Four degrees , dang Mark . Sorry about that . The thing I like about Matt is he's got all this education . He's a PhD , but he's not , like you can see , he's a very practical down there .
He's going to academia . Yeah yeah , my Christmas vacation was going out in the shop and working on tractors .
So , yeah , I got tractor too . I need your help .
So now you have engine , you pursued engineering .
Yeah Well . So yeah , I actually started as a mechanical engineer because of my love of engines and cars and things . And then along the way I started realizing there's like , if you're going to work in this , the electronics are even becoming , at that time , even more important .
So I ended up switching over electrical engineering and then I was like , well , this is interesting , but I want to know a little more . So then I doubled in physics Wow . And then , once I doubled in physics , I got the quantum mechanics and I said I have learned enough , I'm good , this is as deep as I want to go .
So I stopped there , ended up getting a master's and a PhD in double E electrical engineering Nice .
Wow , and so you did it . Congratulations .
But you didn't go into academia . I mean , obviously with a PhD in electrical engineering you can have a really good job in academia . I mean people don't realize these guys start out at like 200 plus . Oh really , yeah , it's a good and it's a nice lifestyle , but you didn't opt for that .
I like making things . That's my thing , and I think there's more opportunity to do that now in academia than there was back then , because of all the blab . Yeah , and we're , and rightfully so .
It's what we need to be focusing on Incubators and things that we have .
But no , I was like I went and worked . I had unique opportunities while I was in school . I went and did internships and co-ops everywhere . I worked at Hewlett-Packard when they were the biggest tech company in the world , worked on some of the biggest chips in the world , got the bug for that .
I worked for the Air Force Research Lab up in Dayton Ohio and got to see like all of it , like that was a whole side of the federal research . I had no idea what we did to enable our war fighters Did you see like any of the UFOs and stuff there ? Yeah , I know what you said .
I worked in the building that supposedly you know they moved the aliens from . Osmull too . And we had a tornado drill went down the basement . I did not see a single alien . Heck , you know I was hoping you'd do that .
It's been the best podcast of all time . Thank you , it's been a huge mark .
Oh man , I'm doing you buddy .
If we brought out the alien truth we could have unmasked it right here Right .
Un-big talk about small business , you know . Anyway , sorry , we missed it .
So I said , while I spent my , you know , when I had my base pass , I looked everywhere , yeah . I did not find any Sure .
I mean the lovelies are , though he knows it all . I don't even think the guy's got a degree . I'm not sure there's any evidence he actually worked for the government , but go on , sorry , so anyway .
So you know , I said when I got into graduate school that was one I wanted . I've always like , said , came from a family of entrepreneurs , small business owners . I said , even when my dad was working at these companies , my parents were usually running businesses on the side financial services , mortgages , whatever .
I was always , you know , sort of seeing my mom was a realtor . When I learned to drive . I learned to drive in a Lincoln Continental because it was a realtor car , right , so you know . So I've always had that bug whether I had a job or not , I always kind of wanted to side gig .
And so when I got into graduate school , the opportunity came up to be involved in a startup and it was a kind of transferring some of the things I had worked on in graduate school and it was in modeling and simulation , so electronic circuits , so you want to make them operate , and in that case it was like in space , so there's radiation .
Radiation affects the circuits and so you have to design for that . So I worked on some of them . And temperature , extreme temperature , yeah , and that's where I started to learn about extreme temperatures . And so I did that for five years , you know , and like most startups , it wasn't successful .
But that's what I , you know , I tell a lot of young people if they want to go , if they want to go work , they think they want to start a company . I said go work for one first .
Yeah , right Start up .
Yeah , because I learned a lot of things not to do . I learned .
you know , Learning what not to do is every bit as important sometimes as learning what to do .
Oh , hell yeah .
Yeah .
Yeah , so but . I know Eric .
Glard everything for me .
I did yeah , no , yeah , that's true . No , it is so true it is far more successful .
No , no , that's not true .
That's true , it's absolutely true , go on so , yeah , so . But you know , I learned about that application area and then what ? That's what led to starting Ozark and focusing on the hardware side , and I said how did you do ? That ? How did you start ? Well , I love software .
Right .
Like that's one of the things that is said . If I could go sit down and go work on something for a day , I'd go write some software . Don't get to do it a lot these days . But what I figured out is I didn't like selling software . Yeah , I really didn't like selling software to engineers . Yeah , because they're pretty harsh critics .
Yeah , sure , yeah , they always wanted to do something different than what's designed for , and one of the things I learned is I think if you're definitely with technical products , it's really good to have a relationship of respect to the point that your customers think what you do is magic . That's a good place to be .
Well , it helps if you're an engineer or selling to engineers . There's no doubt about that , because they don't have a lot of respect for people that aren't yeah , exactly yeah , or me , or me .
Yeah , you're suits .
It's like we're not even suits , but they would still . I got called that before .
Yeah , it's like , well , hey , you should go have something to eat . I mean , that's what I'm here for . Yeah , yeah . She's gonna have something to eat and talk about it .
¶ Farming and Finding Passions
So you mentioned farming along the way . Yeah yeah , I had grown up just around equipment engines . Sure , you gotta be handy on a farm . Well , I didn't grow up on a farm , but I guess I don't know . We had a big garage and I became all of my friends' shop To the point I had my friends' parents would pay me to fix their cars .
Right to fix the kids' cars . That's what I did in high school one of many things and so when I met my wife at the U of A , in marching band , and that's that I participated for five years of undergraduate you were in marching band , yeah , so yeah , I was the . I ended up being the , I played drums and I was the captain of the drum line .
Awesome , damn man , he's done everything .
I see you , the thing is too . What he hasn't gotten into yet is he is solely responsible for making Elkins , arkansas , into a decent town . I mean , really let the fire , that's started there I have said I'm not solely responsible but Maybe you would know why he fired .
We'll talk about that . That's where I was leading to . It's a great community that we yeah , I think we . It's beautiful down there We've helped people realize what a great asset it is in north of Arkansas , but no , so I met my wife in marching band and so well , what came with her were four horses , and so that's where the Dude .
I've been there . My daughters are both into . My oldest has a horse farm , Yep .
Well , yeah , and we've sold her hay before .
There you go . We're all related here . Yeah , oh , this will last . It's very incestuous .
Well , our markets saw that we travel and people are like I go all over the world and I'll say I'm from Arkansas and there'll be someone in the room , and we know each other and people are like are there like 12 people there ? No , it's more like 15 .
Yeah , it's like 15 .
But no .
So I learned how to sort of along the way , how to buck bales and all that kind of stuff , and so at some point it became pretty perry if I wanted to see my wife and she wasn't going to be spending all her time commuting to go take care of her horses , right , and we were like I don't know , we're not going to be spending all of our time commuting to
the farm or them . So that's how we ended up in Elkins . So we found kind of our dream property out there . We have 10 acres right in the middle of town with a historic farmhouse that we're both in the old houses and you redid that . Yeah , it took seven years to do that , god did .
It Isn't that crazy , yeah , and was that just so frustrating the whole way through ?
It was . I mean , it was a labor of love . Yeah , and I said I actually was my second 100 plus year old house to renovate and no , I witnessed the transformation over time .
I mean you could see like , wow , somebody's really doing something with this house . Yeah , you have to be meticulous with it Sure right yeah .
But when I bought the property I didn't really understand farming at all . Yeah , and we bought 10 acres . And we accidentally bought , like you know , only some of the few 10 , eight flat acres in Northostar you saw , right on the White River . Oh , that's great , yeah . So you rode on the river yeah , we're just , I mean , real close .
And we looked out my back door and so , yeah , so the first summer we had it we realized this is more than four horses can keep up with .
So I said you better get more horses .
Well and then I was like , hey , he's kind of expensive . And so that's where it kind of started . I got a tractor and then I went down to the local harps and there was an ad for a hay baler for sale for $400 . Wow , next thing I know I became a farmer and so I actually enjoyed , I said . I said I love working on cars .
I actually ended up loving working on tractors and five equipment even more , cause you just you look at it , you can see exactly how it works .
It's not really simple , isn't it ?
Yeah , and who cares if there's scratches in ?
the body work or what they do .
Yeah , it's about making it work and so so , yeah , I really got into that over the years . I've I've got like five or six tractors now , which is stupid for the 10 acres , yeah , but they go back from 1956 to early 80s . Oh , that's cool , yeah , so all sorts of different kinds and stuff . So , yeah , it's just that's .
That's definitely what become one of my my favorite hobbies and passions and it , like most of them , somehow makes money too .
You know what's your use . That's the way I got to do it .
Yeah , it's true I got . I've been getting into like moving dirt . I love like . I got some property that I just bought some equipment where I got a skid steer . Go out there and just tear some stuff up clean , clean debris . I have some property around the river so it's just nothing but a trash can of flood debris . Yeah , yeah , so there's always something .
So that you can take that . Yeah , and you can .
yeah , it's so satisfying and that's a strong way to satisfy it . Yeah , it's so , it's so satisfying , it's truly satisfying , yeah . So the winter , yeah , and the winter I got to , I've got to work on this equipment because in the summer , that's it's all about .
I'm out there and that sense of satisfaction of you laid it , you know , and it's I never said that was . Growing up , I never had that opportunity to have the satisfaction to say , like , look , I filled that barn with hay and it's going to feed all these animals . It's awesome .
And these other people's animals and Mark's daughter's , yeah , yeah God , I got to sell some hay to Mark yeah , I mean it's like , I said , it's , it's , I'm not into that , yeah .
So hay birders , I'll leave that to you and your wife and my daughter daughters .
Yeah , so , yeah , so , yeah . Well , and that's how it all worked with us . They have a barn in a shop . They're the same size that I . We go out there every weekend . I work on tractors , she , she works on horses Isn't that great , I like . I like things that when you get on them and you turn the key to start , yeah .
No kidding , you know so , and she likes , and they don't they don't .
They just sit out there and colic and have all the problems ?
Yeah , I don't know . I said this . I had a little international this weekend that was kind of colic it wasn't , but it was in the carburetor .
Yeah , no , no , they don't have a will to die like horses , You're right , they just there's a pain , but anyway . So so let's go back to Ozark integrated circuits . Now , how did you get into that ?
And and yeah . So I said when . So when the when the other company , you know , was clearly you know this 2008 , 2009, . There were some , there were some things going on the economy back then . Yeah , yeah , yeah the you know it wasn't gonna , it wasn't gonna go .
¶ The Journey of Building Integrated Circuits
You know , I was looking around what to do and I was like , well , I have these skills , I know integrated circuits , I know , I know simulation modeling , for I know extreme environments and what am I gonna do . And so there were not a lot of job openings in those fields at the time in Northwest Arkansas you could have been a professor , though you know .
And I , and that was that's basically what I did , is I ? I was basically a postdoc , okay , so that , so that I wasn't full time , right , I could , I could concentrate on , on starting the company .
But but , like I said , I like making things and so when I started this company I said , well , let's try the hardware side , right , and so and it kind of works out as a as a beautiful thing for me because it I got to the first really six , seven years of the company .
What I did , my technical expertise , was I wrote the software for the company that made the circuits . I see , okay , and that ended up being our competitive advantage starting out , because Sure , more confidence .
Yeah .
Because most people go buy it and the software to make chips starts at $100,000 a person to a million dollars plus Good . Lord . Well , and so that .
Your software sell for that much perceived .
Oh , hell , no , yeah . And the funny Different industry , yeah .
Different industry . Yeah , this is well you know , it's the , it's the , it's the software to make chips . So it's it's . In the grand scheme of things , it impacts a huge industry , but it's a small volume . There's not that many people in the world that actually does it ?
Yeah , you don't have . I mean , what ? Where the hell else are you going to get the software at ? Yeah , the competitive amount was probably not as great , right .
No . So when you talk about , you talked about research and professors . Well , you know , where did all the where did all of the software start for designing circuits in universities ? Yeah , so it all . It actually some of the first open source code was for circuit simulation , really yeah , so so I had .
This is some of the stuff I learned at the previous company the software side , and so when I started this company , we evaluated solutions . We said you know , we've got more time than money , let's invest in the software . And so we did so .
We went and took the best in class things that were out there , built a whole tool chain , and what we learned along the way is well , we were doing it . We were doing circuit design for really weird things .
We were doing high temperature , we were doing radiation , we were doing extreme vibration , all this kind of things that they , at the time , really no one was doing anything in . Well , we didn't need the bleeding edge software . We weren't making Intel processors or anything , because that's where most of the software's concentrated on , that really high performance .
We were not doing that , we were doing the specialty . Well , by doing the software ourselves , we can customize it for what we were doing . Yep , so over about , like I said , five , six , seven years , me and my partner Jim Holmes at the company . We just we built chips and we built the software around building the chips . And then , uh , how do you build ?
a chip .
I mean , that's it's easy . Yeah , yeah , I'm just kidding .
Well , it's a , I'm gonna take the chips , maybe . But , I had an advantage . I talk a lot about this , like why it's hard to explain to kids these days . When I was in high school , one of the things I did was I worked in a photo lab . I did . That's great , it's fantastic . It's something that you can't do these days .
No , you can't .
Yeah , it was a great experience . Well , make it . If you understand how to photo , think of a photo lab on steroids . That's how you make it , how you make integrated circuits .
Okay , so how's that ? What's the I mean ? What do you mean by that ?
Because you you essentially make negatives . We call them masks .
Got it .
Better chips and the different layers of the chips . That's what we're designing and then you shoot those onto essentially film . Really yeah . Which is the , which is the silicon . Okay , oh shit , so we put different , you put different photo . Yeah , it's crazy .
Because ? Because you're just literally layering layers upon , layers upon layers , and there's the special thing that's in there .
I mean , it's actually along the lines of what we did you do in photo processes . I mean , a lot of the things are based on silver , right ? Yeah Well , silver is conductive , so you could , what we , what you were doing in a photo lab , you could have made making circuits , dang it .
If you'd know that I'm not gonna say that , oh well , what you know , what could you have done with your lights ?
So much you know we would be mad , like number one can powder , so , but yeah . It is no , that's really cool . It's really cool . You have to . I guess you had to be in the dark . You have to be in dark , yeah .
So we and so , to be honest , so we don't really do any of that in-house that actual part . I'll talk about what we do at Ozark . But that's the . That's how you make the actual chips .
Didn't know that . And as part of that is I mean , obviously you want to get the chip as small . Yeah , yes , yes .
And that's where it said , yeah , and like the , we talked about this whole world of like it , of design , like before they'd made software to do it . If they actually drew out the circuits and then reduce them down , mm-hmm .
Just like like in the old , like printing press days yes , you'd shoot negatives , yes , of the paper , and then you'd draw out the freaking rubies to do the C and YK processing .
Yeah , and it was . They used RubyLith in the early days . Like I said , it's it's freaking awesome , and I said that and that's one of the lessons is like everything's based off something else .
It is , it is . It is how some of these early experiences that you would think are unrelated to your ultimate , you know , refaction .
You don't . Yeah , I said , that's why I tell young people . I was like just don't say no to things when you're young , just go try things , and that's still so cool too , cause you'll never forget those times , spin-in times and those .
You know the historical foundation , you know . I mean like in photography , real quick . You know , like the whole digital photography stuff . People start on the digital side and they never understand aperture , shutter speed , the physics of the light .
They don't understand the dots per inch , you know from back in the day and how all that relates to pixels and they can't get the qualities . They don't understand all those roots but it's all based upon that stuff .
It's all based on it exactly , and that's why I shoot with old manual focus lenses . Love it , man .
Dude . Hey , yeah , love that . You know I've been wanting to get into medium format photography . Yeah , cause I mean when I was starting out that stuff , like I was running around in nature shooting pictures of waterfalls and , like you know , positive transparency slides top film .
Didn't anybody ever tell you don't go chasing waterfalls .
I know that's your favorite song . You broke or you brought that out in one podcast . Yeah , I do . That's his favorite Hegum song . I was like what kind of music you like ? Well , I like waterfalls by TLC . Are you kidding me right now , dude ? Is that seriously your music ?
My favorite but I was like that's the one why I ask you what kind of music you like . That's the first thing you said .
They have very wide ranging tastes , but anyway , like back in , like you go out , there came equipment and you couldn't see anything and you take you a week and a half to develop the film you know , after you've been back from a trip so satisfying , oh wow I got on that and I mean , I don't know if this was your experience , but half the people that worked
in photo labs back in the day were aspiring photographers Absolutely .
That's why they did it Absolutely . So I have lifelong friends that still from over , like I should have almost 40 years ago where we met in a photo lab . So that's so cool , but anyway , it's a small like says a small world . It is Arkansas . Well , that was Oklahoma , Two degrees of separation .
Yeah , what was ?
that two months ago Eastern .
Oklahoma . So the land time for God is what I call that .
So 50 years behind , yeah Well hey , we won't get into that . So once you have the chip , you have to put it in something , because when you talk to somebody about electronics , what they immediately think if they know anything , they think like a green circuit board . That's what everybody's popularized . Well , you have to take the chip and you have to put it .
Usually , traditionally , we put it in something called a package , and that's the little black thing that you see on the board . So it might be plastic , it might be ceramic , with little leads coming out of it , and then that's soldered on a board and then they have a system . And so you've got to do all those things or you have nothing useful .
You have to be able to connect it all together , and so when I started the company , we were concentrating on the chips , and the market we were going after were these extreme environments . So we were looking at oil and gas , so like drilling underground , high temperature , stream , vibrations , things like that .
Well , you need a chip for to drill , though . I mean , I'm really curious about that .
That's all . The drills are steered . I see .
So you have to navigate , so you have to navigate Yep OK .
And then you have you log wells , you're logging pressures , you're trying to because you're flying blind . You're trying to figure out what's down there .
Makes sense , Makes sense .
So there's yeah , so that's actually . And actually , if you go back to Texas Instruments , Texas Instruments first projects were to serve the oil and gas industry . That's why it's in Texas . So how do ?
you sell that . You've got this Stone calls , bro , you know . Come on , man , I mean seriously , how do you sell this ? Who do you sell that to ?
Well , so my specialty has turned out in small businesses has been basically deep tech . That's what I do and , yeah , you don't go raise investment for that traditional . You don't go raise a venture . If you do , you'll probably run out of business really quick because these are things that could take five to 10 years to come to fruition .
Well , like pharmacy drug development .
Exactly Well , who funds that ?
to start , I would guess big money , the government .
OK , the government it's , depending on what stats you look at . The number one thing we invested in producing the US is essentially pharma and medicine . As the government yeah from the government investments , but the next one would be military right . Exactly , exactly . So what I'm saying .
Smart guy more . You see that shit man . I've always known that about you .
Thanks , man so we make a lot of it . We said , well , we can get into this if we have time . But that's really what the CHIPS Act was recognizing is that we invent the US as the engine of innovation of the world .
Right , we may not make the CHIPS , but we are the technology behind the CHIPS and so like what ?
But we sort of got into a mindset of outsourcing everything and it got Right , and that's not good . It's not good . And so they said what we need to get better at is the transition . And I'm Mr Transition . I saw something .
They're funding , they help to subsidize , so like we can manufacture here as well , yes , and , yeah , that's what's going on right now with the CHIPS Act .
But with small business , there's a program that a lot of people don't know about if you're trying to start tech companies , which is the SBIR Small Business , innovate Research and there's a couple flavors of it , but you can get like six to one year grants for $100 to $300,000 , $400,000 .
You can get multi-year , multi-million dollar contracts through it to go solve problems that the government thinks are deep tech problems . So that's what you , that's what you .
That's what you ?
Yeah , that's what you're doing and so , yeah , and so when I started the company that first year I've lost count , but I know I wrote anywhere from 20 plus proposals .
That's literally what I was doing with my prototype you personally were writing grants , basically Grant proposals .
Yeah , grant proposals , contract proposals , and the way the program works is there's a set aside for every agency for this . It's a percentage of their overall budget . So everybody's got one . Nasa has one , all the branches of DoD , nih , nsf , and so you can go look around those and you talk about some really cool customer discovery .
I really like working , for example , with the DoD , because they're basically saying we have this bizarre problem , is there somebody out there that has an interesting solution ? And so you start learning about these really interesting problems and so yeah .
¶ Journey to Success
So I did that for a year and I was literally just about to give up . That's why I actually I joke about it to this day . I got my BlackBerry . I'd left a board .
Dude , I gave up BlackBerry . I was like the last guy .
I loved my BlackBerry , the last one out the door . I loved them . It's still in my museum , oh yeah .
I've got a bunch of them too . We've got a display case in our living room that's got some old BlackBerry stuff . I want them .
If you go to the Smithsonian right now they have the Natural Science Museum has a display of cell phones , how they're made and all the metic minerals and they have old cell phones . It was how to blast taking my daughter through there and showing all these old cells .
Yeah , we used to have those ones that were like in a pack . Yeah , you'd be like huge .
When I first met Mark for my interview , he was on that dag on BlackBerry . He's multitasking While he's talking to me right now one of his swig letters . It's probably it's not good , I wish not how many words on this wide ? You do at least 2,500 words .
Oh no , 500 to a thousand . But I wrote like 100 and some articles in a year . But on your Blackberry , yeah , I do it on an iPhone now , which I hate the lack of people I know the feature .
Oh the ball .
And the ball . Yeah , that was it , that was awesome .
That was the best brick breaker game of all time .
Exactly , I used to keep spare parts handed when they wouldn't . I'm like why can't you be more successful Blackberry , Because you're going to lose .
I can play that ball before I changed mine too . Yeah , yeah , you could wear it out . Yeah , I would wear it out , but then they wear out , yeah , but anyway . Anyway . So I was literally I have .
well , no , I had a board meeting after a year of doing this and we said , yeah , I don't know if this is going to go . So , like , I've written 30 of these things and you haven't had anything back . You know we'd done some consulting things or whatever , but it wasn't turning anything . And literally I got in the parking lot and I checked my Blackberry .
It says you know , award notice . Oh great . So like , okay , let's give this a go . So that was just about the time my daughter arrived . So I'm literally we're going to the hospital , so how ? long ago was this , so this was 2012 . Okay , wow , yeah , so , yeah . So we started the company and I said a year later , I finally , so we finally hit it .
And so then , basically , we started from almost almost nothing and basically designed our first chip in six months so when you were , applying for those grants and stuff and you said you went to your board that day .
I mean , how were you ? Were you self-funded ? I mean , when you took that board .
It was just basically all .
Yeah , just like an advisory , and okay , so people just got in and they're going to help this
¶ Starting a Business and Growing Ownership
way . That was sweat equity , sweat equity basically .
Yeah , okay , love it . So that's a smart move , I think , a lot of people don't do that .
Yeah , and I said and there's things , there's things I would do differently about it , about defining the sweat .
That's such a big deal . I love that point because I love sweat equity . I love it . I love it because I mean I'm a contributor , like if I say I'm going to do something you know , and I will contribute above and beyond what I said . I will , except unless it's Mark . He contributes more than I do on this podcast .
But anyway that don't want to bust out a live board meeting right now , but I mean , but defining that sweat equity like that to me is kind of this magical thing that .
And it's never perfect , but I think that's one I'm with you . It's like one of the number one things when I advise somebody is like what , let's figure out a structure that's probably going to work for you and going to grow into , because you don't want to get into sore feelings and stuff because of how do you measure it ? Well .
I'm in my operating agreement . Now , yeah , Well , like I mean , I don't , I mean I think that's , that's what we're doing .
We're really getting good people . Unless you're willing to provide some kind of ownership opportunity , yeah .
But you know , I think a lot of small business owners are too self-assured in regard and that's one of the things we pivoted it on with our company over time is we went from just having the original founders to actually having you know a stock option playing all this and so , yeah , pretty much all my employees .
they always end up at being essentially owning a piece of the company . Yeah , that's cool , that's how over time . So that's something I would have done from day one . Yeah , put that on , just put it . Put it . Set it up to where there was a pool for that . And so you know those things the later you do them , the more expensive they are .
Yeah , it's always a problem . I mean yeah .
So it is , but you know , we did some things right . I started out as a C-Corp . I didn't do an S or an LLC .
It was Thank God , because LLCs , in particular , they don't , they don't scale , they don't scale .
And I , yeah , we just converted an LLC into a C-Corp and that was some of the best advice I got when I started was to just like yeah , you're not , and at the time the taxes mattered and it's like you're not making much money anyway . We're in a building mode . What difference does it ?
make . Plus , you can always bonus out all your profits through the payroll , and in which case you got no profit anyway .
We've talked about that . I mean , I think I'm going to start it like that makes sense , but I've ran into problems on acquisition , like being acquired as a C-Corp or S-Corp is extremely problematic .
Yeah as well , yeah .
Yeah , but the LLC is super simple Well it's not necessarily more somatic in the sense if you've got good bylaws and shareholder agreements , the LLC , any member , could hold up your whole deal . You realize that ? Yeah , whereas in a typical corporation a majority of shareholders can make the decision .
Yes , well , I'm a fan of corporations you can work in , drag along clauses and other things right from day one .
We should probably have an episode about that in digs and deep , oh yeah , deepness , because , yes , we do need . The thing is , what I experienced was that when we were out trying to raise capital for a company the second that I said we were in S-Corp we would have folks who know for out .
Well , you know why ? Because they can't own their ownership interest in another entity in the name of another entity . That's the problem with an S-Corp .
So , but how do you that ?
that's what I'm kind of saying A S-Corp , though , you can do that , you can do that , yeah , okay , that's the difference .
But they didn't want to change the C-Corp , they wanted to go to LLC . Okay , all of them . I'm just telling you , I don't know why , I'm just like .
The attorneys automatically . If you said I want to go start a business , they'll be like we'll set you up with an LLC . It's the first knee jerk reaction , but they need to know what your longer term plans .
Yeah , exactly , you have to fit it to your . Yeah , if you're going to set it up , you're going to sell it , or maybe ?
And not bring other owners in and out .
Okay , that's where LLC . That LLC is great so anyway , which is kind of what they're going to go . Oh sorry , no , no , no , no Go ahead .
That's a deep conversation . It is , but yeah , so Deep thoughts .
Deep jack-and-dude , do you remember ?
Oh yes , I don't know , that was the best man . That's why I watch this . And all of a sudden he thought so did he , sorry man , yeah , I will .
I mean , we get a lot of side tracks . Oh well , yeah , you'll send me down all sorts of SNL . He's liking the ride man .
I know I'm telling you , matt . It's why you can . I liked him . He's just down to earth . Yeah . Seacores . They're like butter .
Yeah , like that . See Rabbit trail More cowbell .
So , matt , so you got . You started out , you had an advisory board , you created a Seacorp , you got grant money . Yeah , yeah .
And well , you know there was still . There was new struggles after that because you had to learn how to administer those projects , because it's not like you just get a bunch of money and you know , hey , you're done , you've got to set up .
You know government Basically , as soon as you start a company that's going to do government contracting , you kind of in a way , need to be a miniature defense contractor , you reflect the market that you serve , exactly yes . I've always said that .
So you have to learn , you have to say , and that's one of the big the other , if you're going to go down this path . The next big mistake people make is they don't . They don't know how to set up the books from day one Right and that , and if you set them up wrong , fixing them that gets really expensive , like can't bring overhead .
Exactly it's all about your overhead .
Yeah , and they look into all that . They have the right to see all that stuff and I'm sure they do pretty sophisticated PO processing .
Oh , they do . And then also it's completely different based on who you're talking to , yeah , which agencies . Which makes the bold billy like you got to have your eyes dotted so that was , you know , when we started it was like my hat rack was full of hats . Right , I did accounting , I did everything .
So I learned a lot along the way and I still say the happiest day I had was when my bookkeeper who still works for me when she came on , oh yeah , totally , I wasn't doing entries , I wasn't doing all this stuff , but yeah . So we but you know , we had our struggles .
It was still sort of a touch and go for several years , but it was basically I think it was around 2015, . We finally just sort of hit it off that we , you know , you're putting ideas into ether .
Once you get in , it's a two-way street because you're performing on these topics and you know what the next topic they're going to ask for is probably going to be based on what you did .
So once you're in , you're starting to become a thought leader and if you're doing this right in the process , and so we finally sort of got to a point where there was a I think there was becoming a consensus on the approach that we had to high temperature and we we're still , to this day , things hilarious . We got freaked out .
We won two projects at the same time . You know , we were so small back then we couldn't even think conceived of that . And we said , well , this thing , this might go . And so we got those two and they were the first .
They're multi-phase , so we got two phase ones and for us the goal was starting out we wanted to get a phase two because that would be probably close to a million dollars Over two years . We can , we can do some stuff .
Right , we got a baseline , so we finally , around then , around 2015 , we got one of those , transitioned to a phase two and then basically we were off to the races since then . Then I really started being able . I started hiring full-time engineers . We weren't all part divers doing other things and , yeah , we grew it .
And so I literally grew it from a hundred dollar company . And now we're you know we're we're usually doing three and a half to . I think we'll be probably doing 10 million in revenue here in a year or two . And so hockey stick and all that good stuff , right , man ? So 20 employees now and that's growing pretty steadily . Are y'all all in Elkins too ?
No , no , so we're . Actually we started back in the in the tech park at the down south Fayetteville , and we're still there to this day , I still technically have the original room we started in as one of our part of our suite .
We just kept adding , adding , adding , and now we're the building we're in , we're the biggest tenant , and then what happened is we started making these chips , coming back to like the technology we , we , as we got to this point where we could actually start making them . We got off the paper and started making them .
We realized that making the chips was only half the battle . You had to put them in something to even test them , and so we started learning about packaging . So , like what you put the chips in , and for high temperature , it's not going to be plastic , it's ceramics . So then my hands on kicked in .
Yeah that was like you can make circuits out of out of ceramics . This is really cool . Do you have a kiln ? Yes , and that's that's really what Ozark has . Our in-house is all around , is all around the .
So we design the circuits , we help develop the processes to manufacture the , the integrated circuits , but what we do here in Fayetteville is we do the all the ceramic packaging . So , yeah , we have . We have kilns , we have printers , we have punches , and then we have the .
The thing that you have to do then is get the signal off of the chip onto that board or package . So we have these machines that are really like industrial robots , called wire bonders , that can make this tiny little wire , a thousandth of a human hair thick , go from one point to the other . Then you program to do this Really so fascinating .
I love this . Let me ask you this , and I had some family members who are in the ceramics trade , martin you're talking low like you .
Nobody can see your face right here .
And they all called kilns , kills , kills . I've called them that in your field . It's something unique to our vernacular here it's like I got to get a new kill . I'm like what are you talking about ?
We're engineers , so we call them . We call them furnaces .
Okay , oh , okay .
You don't call them refractors . No , we call them furnaces . Okay , yeah , they go . If they go really high in temperature , their furnaces , and if they're moderate range , their ovens that's our , that's our , that's our .
Well , that's good , then I'm I'm happy to hear that , cause it always .
But Well , we run into all this stuff where it's actually suspecting cones and stuff like that . The materials , because it comes from ceramics , it's bizarre and we're making circuit boards out of it . But what we , what we ended up figuring out through all of this discovery , customer discovery was that you know , you're making chips .
Cool , but there were chips out there . There were , there were , there were materials and things , but what no one had done is put it all together into something that would work in almost any application .
And if you look at what electronics have turned into , whether it's , you know , you're in your cell phone or running the window up and down in your car , it's basically a computer . It's just a different scale , different scales , right , I understand .
Right yeah , every car has got 20 or 40 of them , or however many it's got .
Exactly . And so well , guess what , if you're going to do a high temperature , what you need to make is a computer . Right , you need to make a general purpose computer , and then you can put stuff around it , customize it for the , for the , for the customer . So yeah , so that's what we do .
We make a single board computers so ceramics with our own chips on them .
Maybe there's somebody out there that's going to be listening to signers . I am like what's the difference between ? What do you mean by computer versus the chips ?
Well , yeah , so it's , it's the rate . So , basically , by making the chips into a computer . So what does that mean , though ? It means it's programmable . That's really what it means . It means now software can come to play , because you can put your software in the chip . That's really what a computer that becomes a computer . Wow , that'll be damn .
And you do this rather on a micro scale .
That's . That goes back to Turing .
¶ General Purpose Machines and Challenging Environments
He theorized that if you made a machine this way , you basically could make it do anything . It's a general purpose machine .
So are you guys ? Are you all writing the scripts in the software that goes into ?
the chip . Yes , we do that . It depends on the customer . There's some where we do everything and there's others where we say , here you go , here's the start , and they're going to write their own . But yeah , that's , that's the sole . It allows them to customize it further into their application Can they go back and customize it as well .
Can you just throw in new scripts and yes , exactly yes , and it's like when you can take your car to the dealer or do an over the air update . It's the same sort of thing , yeah , but the difference is the applications we're going into might be oil and oil and gas drilling rig or a jet engine , that's .
We're basically making those same kind of computers that have on on a , you know , in your engine management system in a car , but we're making them for these , these other .
You've also done stuff for NASA , yes , and how about SpaceX ?
Are they ? Yeah , no , so we've . We've never broken in with SpaceX , but yeah , we've have done a lot of our early work . Actually , our first contract was for NASA and a lot of it was driven by . They eventually want to land their own stuff on Venus . Yeah , it's , it's almost 500 degrees Celsius and a hundred times earth pressure , and it rains sulfuric acid .
Holy cow .
That's no big deal , so we got to ask .
That's what you call a not so friendly environment .
It's and so that's what I it was . It was one of our first applications , and so that's what we actually called it Like the , where we figured out a lot of this stuff that we're now doing . At like , a lot of our products are around 200 and 250 C our commercial products . So like centigrade . Centigrade . Yeah .
So , like like lasagna , temperatures in the in the 300s Fahrenheit 300 to 400 Fahrenheit Lasagna temperatures .
Yeah yeah , that's what I , that's what I . I try to relate everything . Thank you .
But that's where a lot of our commercial stuff is . But so when I talked to Custer like how we figured out how to make that stuff work for long term , I said Venus , so as so , instead of a moonshot we had a Venus shot . Yeah , it's like the moonshot advanced us into doing essentially all the semiconductors , a lot of these other things .
For Ozark it was a Venus shot . We , we did all these programs and try , like how would you make this work on Venus ? And you know , literally that's when I started putting circuits in kilns , what's just to see if they would work .
Test and puzzle .
So is it . So is it ceramic that can withstand ?
that Venus ? That's part of the yeah , that's part of the part of the puzzle . Is the yeah , the system that makes the most sense for that you put , integrate all the chips together with the ceramics . That's really where we got into it and then the .
To make the chips work at those temperatures , we actually use different things than silicon , one of them , silicon carbide , and so that was a material we got into way way early and this imagine a lot of that stuff you're doing is very proprietary secretive . Well , you know it varies . I've always told people is like I think this is one of our key advantages .
One of the problems with technologists is they'll get welded to something that they just . I love this , this is my thing , this is the best way . Ozark is not that way . We're welded to the problem Like what solves the problem . So if something new comes along , gotta keep learning Exactly .
Our goal is to be there at the table when something new comes along , and if it's better than what we're doing for an application , then we'll use it . But there's a lot of variables . It might be better in terms of performance , but it might not be better in terms of cost . It might not be scalable to volume .
So you have to always be cognizant of these things and know there's not one solution , there's multiple solutions and you're always mapping them to the application .
It sounds like a quote from an entrepreneur , or not an engineer .
It does . I was just thinking business is much the same , totally yeah . You can't get wedded and say , well , this is the answer , everybody's got to go on EOS or whatever . Yeah right , you know you've got to be open and you've got to be learning .
Yeah , and I think that's what you said . I'm hoping that's what we see more of over the coming years . With what the investments from the government and related to the CHIPS Act is more problem solving .
And well , I think this is the ultimate .
Yeah , and please could I just give me another million dollars Because I want to finish this thought . I was like who needs the thought ? They want the stakeholders that have the problems at the table from day one .
Yeah , they're trying to pay for the to ensure their theory not continue to Exactly .
Yeah , so where do you go with this business , matt ?
Well , I said we . So essentially people ask like you know , where are we ? I said , well , I think we're probably at least a decade ahead of anyone else because we had the just determination and to do it .
There's actually some pretty large market reports come out and list us as one of the disruptors and literally be on charts where we're the only company that's not valued in billions of dollars .
So you know , we're pretty excited about where it is and I'm you know I am , at the end of the day , whether I'm an Arkansen by birth or by spirit , I just want to build it and I want to build stuff here . Yeah , I love it and that's what we all love .
Yeah , and what the people have always asked is like well , you know you're growing at this rate and stuff and can you ? Can you grow the team ? And I said we've always been able to . You know what ?
One of the biggest things that we export from the state are smart people , and when you give them an opportunity to come back here and do cool stuff , they think there's a lot . Or stay here and do cool stuff . That's right .
As a bug , you guys , though the way we're stereotyped out there and the and the media , I mean it's just , you know , it's like I saw that movie that came out recently with David Dukovny and and yeah , the airport movie yeah , and , and Meg Ryan , and it's like it starts out where are you ? I'm stuck in the middle of nowhere .
Okay , you know , in some flyover country or whatever , some some negative aspersions . You know , that's the way people think of us and we do have smart people here and we have people who can actually do
¶ Entrepreneurship and Purpose in Business
stuff . Oh , yeah , I just hate that .
I kind of like it , though . It gives you yeah , it gives the opportunity to shank somebody . You can you just shank him . You feel like a prison . But it's kind of a prison , I mean . It's a little bit like that , though . I mean like because they got surprise people , there you go .
That's a better way to put it . I think if you look at all of our , our , our , our , our our range of success stories in Arkansas surprise people . They came out of nowhere .
Yeah , because they . They let you . Oh , don't worry about that . That's what happened with our , our entire business . Like they let eyes , you got some goofballs over there . What do you know about software ? What do you know about ecom ? What do you know about retail ?
Yeah , this has to happen in New York , or .
LA or Boston . Yeah no , we got to shanks . We got to New York shanking .
Yeah .
It's fantastic .
Same thing with yeah Well , I try to work with everyone , so I'm not planning on shanking anyone but okay .
So before a disclaimer , I'm a little scared to an uncluckly shanking , or I don't even know how you make a shank .
Y'all need to acknowledge that I'm not talking about a physical .
Do we like to use a fork to make that or something ? So ?
I have no idea Cause I'm talking in in terms of figuratively speaking . Yeah , okay , okay , that's fine . Trying to get me in trouble here . You're trying to get me out . You're trying to oust me from our LLC for this podcast .
No , I'm not , it's your bankroll buddy . You're the one supporting this thing . Thank God , so well , that's very interesting . So so what are your plans personally ? You plan on keep working forever . Are you going to turn the reins over to somebody else and still be an owner , or do ?
you have any plan at all . So the way my brain , the way my brain works with a business is , if you're , if you're in my past experience if you try to set it up to sell it , it doesn't work . So I'm focused , I'm just continuing to focus and solving the problem .
Yep , there you go and I , until there's a day I wake up and I don't want to do this anymore . I'm going to keep doing it as long as I have the resource to be able to do it and the opportunity to do it . It's .
I think these are some of the coolest problems to solve and I get to work with some of the best partners in the world and I get to make the you know the US be the most competitive in this area that I can make them love it .
Somebody comes along and says bad , I'll give you a hundred million dollars to get out of this thing . What do you ?
do then 250, . He wants 250 . It's his response .
I mean , I'm just , you know you could go full around with your tractors and kilns or whatever that you want to do .
If scenarios came along that led the company scale up , then I would think about that . It's about the mission for me . Okay , well , that's good .
I love that . I love you man .
That's great man , that is a great guy . It's just one of the many great people we have here and one of the many people that I know .
Well , I love the mission . Purpose behind a business to me is absolutely significant .
This is what drives me crazy , though . Most people , when you start talking entrepreneurship and business , they ascribe these evil motives and greed just to make money . It's rarely it's like seven or eight down on the list . It's like I hope I can make a living doing what I love to do something .
Yeah , yeah . And then the good news for folks that aren't in the entrepreneurial space that might have that perspective is that most people that do start businesses to make money are not really going to be successful .
Exactly they . As I said , they and they fail , they end up , and they usually end up miserable . Totally miserable . Exactly Because it's . You know , running a business is really hard work .
It's a labor of love it takes . We always say we don't believe in what we do . We believe in work-life balance , we believe in work-life integration here , yeah , yeah , yeah , it's one and the same .
Yeah , you know , it's funny , like even just last night . First of all made two knots in a row and made a really bad mistake . Eights and nerd clusters before bed .
But they're so good , don't do that , don't do that I can't stop . He's a loose thing . And then , not before , when my daughter heard me on , it hurt me .
I might have a lot of it grabbing , getting a ruler actually for this thing , to make sure that you don't look at the engineer of that . It's terrible . Man , don't be judging .
But anyway , I saw it , nerd clusters .
And I was in the oh and I did the impulse thing and said , oh man , there's some nerd clusters and they only come in like a huge bag . Well , yeah , yeah . So I ate them . Then that night and I didn't slip like hell , did I before ?
And then last night I get home , my wife , for some reason , she saw the popularity of the nerd clusters so she bought some . So she bought a family , like I'm talking , it was like a gallon bag , oh , buddy . And I did my hand in there two times . So I fall asleep . Fine , it's like I can't stop , I know .
And then you wake up , and I will wake up at 2 am , 3 am , and my mind is just racing . But my point to this is that I wake up and all I'm doing in my mind , subconsciously , is thinking about all the business problems going on . I mean it's just like dude . I mean I feel like I was like literally spinning .
That happens so many times but just so fresh on my memory and I can't go back to sleep , right . So I'm like I'm doing nerd clusters , b problems . But the point of that is is if , unless you're mission bound in your business , because what I started to do is consciously start overcoming that by going why am I doing what I'm doing ?
What is my purpose behind what I'm doing ? Yeah , because all these problems exist . I'm like , oh , that's right , I'm doing a , I'm doing B , right , doing C , this is what and this is a bigger vision behind it , and I know that . Yes , and if I don't do this , no one's going to do it .
Therefore , the problem's still going to exist and things will progress and be better .
And I said I'm biased and I'm sure you are , and I think the entrepreneurial mindset is a is the right mindset . You can apply it to running a business or you can apply it to being in an organization of any kind not a nonprofit , in government and that's right . That's how I've probably ended up .
And also along the way , working with so many different organizations is because I get the same buzz from it , the same high for applying that mindset to . Hey , this is a really cool problem . What's our mission ? How do we solve it ? And if you get state of the core , you can solve anything .
Totally agree and like because you have this . If you have the same mentality of I'm going to start a business to make money , hey , you're going to get your butt kicked at the 3 am .
Right .
Right , yes , same thing is if you go work for a company and it's about , hey , how much time do I get off , I get my benefits and how much money I get , yeah , what's my ceiling for growth ? What are all these pathways and plans ? Like , you are in the wrong mentality .
But if you're going there and you're like , hey , you know what I love , what this company's doing Exactly , I'm going to do this . Here's what's disappointing . I had an interview with a guy a few days ago about a position and he was speaking mission and vision about . You know , because I was sharing him what I'm doing . He's like , man , I love it .
Boom , boom , boom boom . And so disappointing that this person text messes me back . You know , the next day is like hey , listen , I can't do it . I'm like man I thought we had a really fantastic connection Good connection , yes , and the really important stuff .
What happened was you went away and got suffocated by someone out there that was hey well , what's the pay ? What's the ladder and the skill ? Probably their spot .
This is your fraud . He doesn't have the same entrepreneurial orientation . I think a lot of people end up like that , but we've had that discussion right here with our spouses . Eric and I brought our shoes . Yeah , Remember when we should have had mats here with us .
Yeah , okay , we should have with the horse women what ?
else Do a horse horse ? Yeah , we should get Christie on here . Yeah , we need to get Christie's got a real business with her horse farm , so I have no horses .
I will have no relevancy to that . You're like a horse combo . You don't have to have me a hair for that one , because I won't add anything to it other than the stupid questions .
The one great quote I've learned was if you're talking to the horse's rear , you're not talking to the horse's head , or something . Well , I think you could be not talking to the horse's head , you're talking to the horse's rear . I don't know .
We could play the same role as Best in Show . Yeah , oh yeah .
For sure which role in Best in Show is that . That movie is one of my favorites .
The guy who was the announcer . Oh yeah , willard , I remember his name .
Oh , Fred Willard . Yes .
Yeah , I could do that . Yeah , because that's why I thought he knew nothing about dogs and that was so funny about it . Why does that matter ?
But that episode with their wives remember how we like I mean at the beginning it was really like they had a lot you know , like they knew what they were talking about . By the end of it you and I had like really shown the audience who's boss in that relationship , oh great .
He loves to say stuff like this because it's the complete opposite . Okay .
My wife was so attracted to me after that episode it was ridiculous . She's like . You're such a smart , beautiful , sexy man . I don't know about you .
I can't say I've experienced that reaction , but anyway , you know my wife , she's pretty hard edged , but anyway , so , yeah , I think that's very interesting , though , to talk about this and and and I commend you , matt , for having the the long game and the right motivations , yeah , and also the ability to do all the other things that you do .
It's not like you don't have any other interests or life . Yeah , you know you've been able to build this business and redo your , your places there in Elkins , and be very active in restoring the town to a guiding its future with your your your work .
Yeah , yeah , I've had the the the honor of serving on the city council now for five years .
Oh , cool yeah .
And it's been a it's been a fascinating experience . I said I never knew I would know so much about Sewers , right , but but is a lot of the skills I've transferred ? Sure , the mindset transfers everywhere and it was , it's been , it's been . It really has been great to see the community continue to grow and and it's been great to be a part of that .
And I said I'm I'm on my way to the airport and it's not for work , it's actually for volunteer work . I'm sitting on the board of one of the largest technical professionals societies in the world . That's how I trip a little bit . I trip a little bit , yeah .
So that's what I thought . It's fantastic and we're really glad you're here .
Yeah , it's been great , and and I guess I'm going to end with one final question Maybe this is too broad for the amount of time we've got , which is just a couple of minutes , but , matt , tell us , tell our listeners , what advice do you have for them if they want to get into their own business ?
It's the most important thought that you would have for them .
Well , I think we kind of hit on it . You have to absolutely match something you love with something you can make some money at , I think . I think that is and I have that conversation many , many times over with with young people and I guess I'd add to that Don't be afraid to get into it and pivot to something else . Yeah , okay .
Yeah , don't hold to that theory , don't ?
hold to the original theory . You need one to start with . Yeah , if we hadn't pivoted two times in the history of the company by listening , we wouldn't still be here . We pivoted at least twice .
Yeah , you got to grow , you got to adapt to your market , you got to learn things and change . I mean , eric completely transformed his marketing consulting business into a software company .
That's a great example An excellent example Of that .
So yeah , Sorry to tell , but scary . I think , especially when the world is in such a dynamic state as it's , in Some constant change , one must be open to change . Yeah , exactly .
And I guess let's just summarize it Be open to change if you're going to start a business Very good .
All right .
¶ Promoting Small Business Website Talk
Well , we are so glad you're here and hope you have a good trip , and I want to thank all of our listeners and encourage you to get onto our website of wwwbigtalkaboutsmusinesscom and see our whole bank of episodes out there and , as we discussed last time , as Mark said , you don't have to log in to our website .
No , sorry .
You can just hit our website or whatever you do .
I'm sorry , I'm picking on you , man , it's okay .
Sorry , there's no login required . Just get on our website , click on some things Get on it . Click , get on it , click , scrub , and if you want to get an email address on the show , we're glad to accept those , and if you want more of Matt , come back on , let us know , man , yeah .
Matt , if somebody wants to reach out to you , what is your email address ?
Francis F-R-A-N-C-I-S at Ozark-I-C dot com . Sweet , All right . Thank you so much .
Well , we'll say goodbye now . This has been another episode of Big .
Talk About Small Business . We'll be good now .