¶ Choosing the Right Business Partner
All right , everybody welcome back . It's another episode of big talk about small business . I'm here with my partner and friend , Eric Howerton . Good morning , mark Zwaag . Good morning .
How are you doing today ? Yeah , I was running a little late for our podcast , shamefully . That's okay . It's like I've had to apologize to you , for I mean , I still feel bad Even during the middle of this podcast . Don't feel bad , I love you .
All is no . Sin will not be forgiven . It's unconditional love .
Thank you I appreciate that , speaking of unconditional love .
Yes .
I think we're going to talk about partnerships today . Business partnerships yeah , I think that's a good one to talk about . Yeah , because I think that there is some unconditionalness that goes on when you're in business partnership and it's just like being married man . I think it's actually almost more .
Yeah , it really is , Cause you're so entwined and tied , Except that you don't have that way to make up that you have when you're married . What are you talking about ? I'm confused . Mark , can you elaborate please ? No , I'm sure our audience of love to hear elaboration .
I will not elaborate on that . But no , it's true though you do spend , as many of us spend more time with those business partners than we do with our , our life partners Totally .
And the other thing is is that I've noticed , is that , uh , or experienced , is that you have to like a lot of times in marriage , right Partnership .
You don't have to necessarily hit problems head on as they happen , like , and of course that doesn't ever lead to anything good but you really don't have to face a lot of the things you know , like if there's some shit between you you can kind of float it out for a few years .
It's devastating Not getting that kind of advice is a good thing . It is devastating . I've always subscribed to that theory . We got to make up before we go to sleep .
That's a good one , you know that's a good one . Yeah , but in business , like you got to kind of make up before the next meeting , yeah , that's going to happen in an hour , because if you walk in , especially with your team , or even with vendors and customers , it doesn't matter .
Like you got to be unified because people will say that crap Like I can sniff that from a mile away .
No , no question about it . But yeah , good partners are invaluable and bad partners are like toxic Terribly toxic .
Yes , so I've been lucky in my career . Yeah , I really have . Yeah , I really have . You've had a few good ones , for sure , yeah , so what do you think is like a makeup of a good part ? Like , ok , so our audience thinking about starting a business or own a business or a business , yeah , right .
And I often get that question of like , hey , I want to start a business , you know , should I get a partner ? I've heard horror stories about having partners and my response is always like it's so much better with a great partner . That is , I agree . Why is that ? Why do you feel that it is ?
Well , I'm sure and I think , knowing the kinds of part at least a couple of the partners that you had , I think you would agree with this You've got to find people who are different from yourself and have different skills than you have the more , but the same sort of value system and same plans for what you want to do with the business .
Yeah , the same idea of what you want to do for the business , but different skills , because the more the same they are , then the more likely you are to have conflict . Yeah , very true , you know you're treading in each other's territory .
And I think that you make a good point like the values , but also the values but also the same vision , right , yeah , absolutely , like you know , but that difference that you have is so strong because to have someone else involved in the business that is absolutely , relentlessly committed , yes , you know , and they're not going to bounce .
And if they want to bounce , that's not going to be an easy thing Like you're kind of stuck in it .
Right , and to know that you have that loyalty and that commitment that helps solidify , like that you do actually have somebody with you along the ride and if they're different than you and they can think about , they can have that vision , and then they can apply that strength . Yes , you know , and make sure that it's Check this out , done .
Right , I'm telling you , dude , like , if you can't , it's so valuable you can't pay somebody to run your books . No , well , you can . Well , you , okay , and do it right , like , legitimately right for the business .
Like I mean , there's people that are smart and they know how to move things around and you know that I've yet to experience somebody , especially in the financial side , that genuinely cares . Right , it can see red flags in the books . Right , like , if you're overpaying for something . You're a county . Your bookkeepers are going to say , hey , you know what ?
You should really watch out for this , because if you keep this behavior , you're going to be out of business or it's going to be hurting . You're going to be borrowing more money the whole partner that would .
Yeah , I mean a good partner is committed like you are . I mean it's so valuable they don't want to go broke anymore than you do , absolutely .
But I mean we could talk about the numbers all day , because I can't tell you how many companies I've been involved with that have bad numbers , and I'm dealing with it right now with one of them that you're aware of and it's just just trying to get the handle on . That is so important because nobody knew anything about the numbers in the firm yeah , nobody .
Yeah , you know , and in time point you can't , well , but you can't pay someone like a vendor or an employee .
No , you can't .
No , that's going to look at those numbers the way that you're looking at right numbers , because you actually care about the outcome of that business . So many vendors and so many people are gonna go along for the ride . Everybody wants to get paid .
Yeah , you're kidding . And if they don't wanna ruffle the feathers , the boss , they don't get paid .
Boom , right , Dude that's a huge point . Ruffling feathers Like what person is . If I'm getting paid a salary and that salary's important for me and my family and my future , I am not gonna jeopardize that salary . There's not many people that will .
Well you might , because you have confidence that you can go do something on your own . Well , that's true , that's true . But you're different , right ?
You're wired differently than most , that's true , but most folks they won't approach a red flag situation Right or like we can't do this Right , Like literally putting your foot down and saying , man , it's gotta stop , and then facing that conflict head on . I mean you just can't . But a partner , Partner can , Partner can and will .
Yeah , if they have the right skills and should not follow in the same path that you're on personally . Yes , right , or the same orientation you have .
And , speaking of that , there's times in business when things like just from a mental standpoint like you can get too much on your plate , or there's other things in life that are going on and to have a partner and you know what's going to Right , they can take up the slack Boom .
Yeah , it's super . I mean several times in my life that's been the case and I'm very grateful for that . But yeah , I mean , the right partner is invaluable . But I think a lot of times people get the wrong partner because they go oh , bob's my friend .
We went to college together , we were in the same fraternity together , or he was in my dorm with me and Bob and I have been good friends all this time and Bob wants to do something with me , right , not necessarily the right person , and especially when you're really tight friends , that a lot of times it's not documented .
Well , very true , okay , I got another one of those situations I'm dealing with right now . The guy died who was partners with somebody else I know and nothing's documented . Oh no , so you can imagine the nightmare trying to Like you're talking about .
as far as the organization and the structure yes , the LLC , operating agreement , lending documents , things like that no way . Capital contributions not documented it's just as horrible . But there was too much trust in a way because of the personal relationship feeling we can work anything out .
That's a big point because it's we might like if you and I went into business together . I might trust you . But we know now well enough that setting up a true LLC with the right formalities and the legal documents is so critical . Or corporation , or corporation , yeah Right . And the point of those documents is not necessarily that . So you and I can agree .
It's more that when , if you pass , or I pass away , exactly what happens I know what's that exit , because you don't want to be stuck with a family member that has no idea nor care .
I'm telling you that's exactly the scenario that this friend of mine's involved with now , when the spouse the spouse is the one and the spouse knows nothing about the business . Yeah right , the spouse never contributed anything to the business . The whole arrangement was based on each having their own role in making certain contributions .
Yeah , and now it's purely financial ? Yeah , Okay , but nothing's documented . I mean , it's just a bad situation . So what ? And that brings me up to another point about partners . If it's purely financial , I'm going to be scared . There's got to be more to it than that . Somebody brings other than just the money Gotcha To your business .
They got to be able to help in some way Management expertise , worldliness , experience . So that kind of reminds me of some of our relationships .
Yeah , it reminds me of some of the discussions that we've had about if you're an entrepreneur and you're just going out looking for investor partners Exactly and you're just looking for somebody to throw money in it because you got this plan but if these people are removed from the business and there's being counted against what you're doing , there are people out
there like that who have money and who do invest in these businesses .
But if it's purely financially driven , there's no real relationship between the people and they don't have anything else to offer the business . They're likely to want to do something different than you are with it , and that's not a good partner . You got to have that . You said at the vision . It's got to be the same . The mission's got to be the same , like .
This is why we're in business . This is where we're trying to go with this business and if it's purely financial , there's only one thing they want out of it and that's money , and they probably want it as fast as they can get it , absolutely .
And then they're gonna know what detail reporting about where all the money's going , because they want more of that money . Yeah , exactly .
Versus all they got , yeah , they'll
¶ The Value of Partnerships
.
Versus like , hey , man , a better partnership would be like I get it , we got some . Okay , we got some cash in the business , but we need to reinvest into the company .
Yeah , we've got some problems that we need to deal with . We got some opportunities . We need to capitalize on them .
Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , and we need some people . We need qualified , good candidates .
And it ain't gonna be overnight . We got to be thinking longer term than just like next month here , because that's not where the opportunity is .
That's a good discussion because that's really the nail on the head , like of what we've talked about about this capital raising phenomenon that's going on , that you're like you can't approach it that way because I mean , heck , an investor like .
A big value I'd see from an investor , like as a partner , would be connections that they have Exactly , yeah , like connect me with the freaking people . That's gonna take me five years to get connected to my own methods , but if you can connect me in a week and I can develop that out in three months , man , that is substantial .
I was out of town recently for a couple nights and , of course , I just had Shark Tank on continuously at night . That's good for the rain to help you sleep . I mean , yeah , it's better than my watching the news all night , like my wife does , which puts me in a horrible mood .
But anyway , I was just watching episode after episode of Shark Tank for two nights in a row . Yeah , and the people who are there making a pitch you don't understand what the right Shark could do for them , true , and then they pass on their opportunity to associate with those people . It's really something else . I mean , they're so short-sighted , you know .
Like if you got a product you're gonna sell online and you got somebody via television , and you got somebody there who's been doing that for like 30 years and became a freaking multi-zillionaire off of it , I'd say , shit , this is a great opportunity .
Oh , dude , yeah , you know I've watched that so many times . When I'm like see these Go ahead .
I'm sorry , yeah , I'm just gonna say they want 35% of your company for the price that somebody else is willing to give you or that somebody else is willing to do it for 20% , and then take the 20% person who has no idea of how to really help that business , protecting their equity .
Yeah .
Because they go in there with a little bit overconfidence and idea . You know and you get advice from folks like you got a protector . What you do have in protector equity right it's very expensive capital , the most expensive cash .
Especially if you're not on a long term plan . There's no short term . You're sacrificing along the way I mean it lasts than you should bearing all that stress . Whatever , you want to have a payoff at the end .
Yeah , but if I'm walking into Shark Tank and I got a clothing line and Damien is like I'll be happy to get in but I'm gonna take a little bit higher equity position , right , if you're Damien , but I can connect you and you see these entrepreneurs like no , I'm out man . Yeah , I know it's worth more than that .
No , bro , it's not .
Yeah , take it , bro . I mean great quote that I heard a long time ago is you don't get wealthy off one transaction . Exactly , it's multiple transactions , so just being connected into that group .
Yeah , maybe they can make your business 10 times larger than it is . So your stake , even if you had 20% instead of 35 , is worth far more . Yeah , because it's 10 times larger . There's that .
And then there's also the fact that , like , if you have a real mindset to it , it's like you got a lifelong entrepreneurial career .
Right .
Of which you can actually be involved in 10 , 20 businesses throughout your life . And if you're really an entrepreneur , you're enjoying that ride Like you love the ride , man . Exactly , you like seeing going .
I like seeing things going from nothing to something and you do the same thing , like how you paint canvases , man , with businesses and all the stuff that you've done , and it's like years over years of just developing . The next thing you know you turn around and like you have , you're sitting in a land of opportunities , yeah .
You got something that's worth , something that has all kinds of possibilities for the future Exactly .
And then you got people that know about you , bring you involved in opportunities all the way , and you know that , the mindset that you can do greater things with a group of people than you can all by yourself .
Yeah , wouldn't you like to be in business with Mark Cuban ? I mean , the guy's smart , I'm all good , yeah , he just that just turns to gold .
Exactly Like give me 30 minutes with him each week and just hanging out , I mean like I'll fly down there with my own dime Exactly I mean , yeah , oh , I get 1% , great .
Yeah , the right , the right partner is so critical . I , you know my primary business partner . It's why white was Fred White , yeah , and he was . You know I'm not and Fred and
¶ Visionary and Doer Roles in Partnerships
I are . We still talk occasionally we don't talk all that often , but we do talk occasionally and Fred was a difficult person to work with at times . There's no denying it . However , we never would have been as successful without the guy .
True , he was a genius and his skillset was almost like the exact opposite of mine , yeah , so together we made a really good team . He was the guy that figured out the longterm stuff how to create the systems that made us more efficient , how to create the databases .
You know how to make books faster and better than anybody else , how to market all our stuff consistently . So we got a consistent result . That's super valuable , yeah .
And so he was more inside . Yes , so I think that , like there is a common simple to simplify this Inside versus out , then even we didn't even plan that , but that's so true it is . And you were the outside guy . Yes , talk and smack , drink and coffee yapping , drinking , campaigning .
Makes me sound so insubstantive Wow , I mean I mean , hey , you know what .
I'm sorry for you , but that's been my real tooth .
I know it is , I know it is and I love it , you know , yeah , somebody's got to do that .
Somebody's got to do it . I think I tell people at the time I'm like I'm a professional coffee drinker , it's all I am . Man , like you know , I know how to go out there and I'm not afraid to make strength .
I'm the promoter and the connector and all that . And I was picking on LinkedIn recently . I know you don't spend a lot of time on LinkedIn and you're smart for not , but these people who put in their profile visionary I mean I'm a visionary , jesus , maybe somebody could call you that . But to claim that is ridiculous . However , that set .
And then I was corrected by somebody that said well now , if you're an EOS company , that is a formal job title to be an a visionary . I'm like , okay , cut the bullshit with the EOS too . Okay , and not to say EOS is bad , it's not , but it's not a panacea for everything . And I said and not everybody knows you're an EOS .
So when they see self-proclaimed visionary , they think this guy's oh , dude soul . I mean , I ain't to say it , but Dude , I would , I would be , ashamed to put visionary on my LinkedIn it is . but all that aside , somebody's gotta be the visionary .
No , it's very true . You know , and honestly , if you are a visionary , I wouldn't really wanna claim it because most of the times people think you're crazy . Right , if you're bringing out vision to stuff . Like it's not a fun . It's not a fun spot to be in . No , it's not . It's superbly frustrating as hell .
I have been Because everybody else doesn't see it . I can't think , I know .
I've been with my life in a frustrating bubble , Like my wife can't see it , my partners can't see it , my staff definitely can't see it , no one can see it and I drive Right Absolutely insane . And then you have to go to my little spaces and understand that it's okay and that I'm you know I'm right .
And you gotta chip away at trying to convince them and sell them . Yes On your vision .
And then they make decisions and you're like what the hell are you doing ? That is not a lie . That's not gonna work out . Well , the numbers work , but the vision is terrible .
But in a partnership somebody's gotta have that role . But yeah , the inside versus outside , yeah , I think the visionary versus the doer , yep , you know not to say that the visionary never does Right . The doer never has any kind of inspiration or sense of a greater possibility . Because they have to .
And you both have to be good with that . Yeah , and respect that . Like , what I've been blessed with with my partners is that they greatly respected what I did , even though it's very soft , like you can't put your hands on , like I'm not cranking out freaking spreadsheets , right , I understand .
You know what I'm saying , yeah , but they appreciated and were grateful and allowed me to just be me , Right , you know . But I was also on the flip side . You were allowing them to be totally yeah and I let them like , I mean , if we brought both my partners in , that I've had they would .
You know , I'm actually had JS in here and I mean like , but I mean the ability for me to get the hell out of that way , out of their way , you know , was probably the greatest , allowed them to be who they are , Right .
I agree with you 100% . I call that abdication . Okay , you know you're just abdicate to them . You just this is your domain , go for it . You know it's not delegation at all , it's abdication .
And then there's been many times , too , where I've been like I probably didn't really agree yeah , didn't , it was the the what are the cut the juice wasn't worth the squeeze , right a pigment battles .
Yeah , you want to win the war , not the battle .
Yeah , man , sometimes like it may not be the best thing , might not be the best thing for a lot of reasons , but right you know , allow it to happen and then support them and back them up right with the team , like I never . I never countered my partner , not one single time you can't .
It's just like parenting . It's the same thing . If you go against your partner , they're gonna be friggin furious with you and be . Your kids are gonna be confused as hell , confused , okay , so you can't , yeah , you can't do it , and if you do it right you can actually use that a lot like man .
I'll be like man . I mean Alex . Alex said no , I'm sorry , I don't .
yeah , you claim against each other . Yeah , right now you use them as the bad guy . That's the other
¶ Being a Good Partner
thing . Do you ever notice that the outside guy is usually not the bad guy ?
I like that .
The outside guy is the nice guy . Yeah , man , everybody loves the outside guy .
The inside guy that coddies up , sob , dude up , you know , or she is all the horrible you know , and folks will come to you trying to convince you , cuz you're the good guy , you're probably gonna say , yes , right , but I always be like man . I don't know , I I would probably take another look at that for you .
Go talk to J S , man Like man , I'll talk with them as well , but you know , I don't think it's gonna work and then I'll let J S just be the bad guy . I think I was gonna be the bad guy .
Exactly , I hear you . I think that that you know . So another characteristic of good partners is they have to be Putting in the same amount of effort that you are in intensity . Yes , you know , and if they're not doing that , then there's gonna be a problem . Totally that course .
That's the problem that people like you and I have , because we get involved in so many things that then we're not giving the full attention to the one thing that the partner may be involved in , and then that can make them Resent you . Yeah , but you got to be careful up , you got to make sure you're still earning your Hell .
Yeah , you know that's when you just say , hey , like it's not worth it to sleep , mm-hmm , it's a . And then you . Then you get twisted up with your spouse partner at the crib . Yeah , I mean , then you got to make good on that like it's just a whirlwind man , it's a great life .
It is so much fun it is , and the real light , yeah . The relationships , all that , yeah . I will say this , though , and I think you would agree it gets easier the older you get . Yeah , when you're young , it's like Things upset you more than maybe they should . I don't know what that is . It's like .
With age comes a certain amount of perspective that allows you to carry on in spite of Disagreements or problems or , yeah , add , feelings you know that might have really derailed you when you're younger .
I think that's probably I would call that just emotional intelligence . Like you go , if you grow up and you start recognizing , like you know , you have experiences is and Experiences in your , and you're like that . You know why was I so bent out of shape about that ? Cuz it didn't make any difference .
And then the next time you have certain things like that happened , like you , you just stay calmer , like you just .
Yeah , it doesn't .
It doesn't blow your lid . It's not the end of the freaking world anymore . Yep and I think that goes into is like I think I'm a better partner today , that I was way back . Oh , I definitely think so .
I agree . I mean , I remember fighting . You are a lot better partner now than you were .
Oh , big time . No , well , we could call Alex now , like he saw me grow up quite a bit , you know , in those early days . I say for him too , though I mean like it took five Took some time .
Yeah , we're , I mean , we're still learning . Okay , oh , we're , that's the great thing . I was saying this to somebody the other day . It's like they're like I don't want to change , I'm gonna be just the way I am . I'm like You're in your 20s . I'm not the same person I was five years ago than I am now . Oh , at all , hopefully . Yeah , I'm .
No , I'm not . I hope I've learned something over that time . Oh , you have , bro , I've watched you now , so much Back at you .
that comment yeah , like you've grown up .
No , it's true , though you do , hopefully you're still learning , which is another good characteristic of a partner is somebody who can say I'm still learning , I'm not done , I'm not set , I'm not rigid , I've , I have the capacity to change . Yeah , you know , yeah , I learned new stuff , absolutely so .
And you know , I think that too is like there's also a level of caring and genuine concern about your partner's well-being , like there's been many times that I've been able to spot in my partner that man , you're not Like , you're not , you're not a hundred percent , not a hundred percent .
Man , things are going on with you Right , like , and you have to be somebody that they can lean on . I mean , dude , it's . It's like friendship , marriage , business , everything wrapped up into it . And I think that that's why a lot of people you know might have a pretty significant horror story , you know , about partnership . It's they .
They could very well have picked the right partner , but because they weren't being a good partner , yeah you know , undermined it and sure , and it becomes more problematic for you , like you literally have to be able to let things go .
You have to be able to trust the person , you know , you have to be able to communicate , you know , and you can't duck and hide , you know . I mean , it's just , there's just so much to it and I'm a big believer in partnerships . I mean , I tolerate the idiosyncrasies , totally .
I mean , I , I , fred , and , and I love him . But we used to sit in meetings and we were young yeah , okay , we , you know , it was just me and Fred and maybe some other people but he always put his leg up against the table and then would move the table like this the whole time . It would just absolutely , I got the word .
I can't even pay any attention to what he's saying or thinking or anything . The moving of the table is driving me insane today . I can totally tolerate that , can you ? Yeah , it's all good now right . But those idiosyncrasies that we all have , yeah , you have to be able to go past them .
You know that is so true . And I mean , you know I've raised my hand saying I probably got a lot that would piss somebody off . You know you never pissed me off . Well , I know , because you and I hurt we're on the outside I mean there's not much that I think that you and I could do . I'd be like , oh dude , that was hilarious , that's great .
Yeah , we're too much alike . That's the problem .
We are for sure . But you know , I mean , like you know , I've always been a big believer in escaping . When you need to escape in business , like sometimes you got to take 30 minutes , take a couple hours to get back in it . You know , and yes , and you know , my brain is regroup , retreating Totally .
My partners were different man they're , they're able to focus and stay , you know , stay in line and keep that , just that consistency . I'm the most inconsistent person that I think that I've ever met , maybe other than you . You're pretty inconsistent to you , like you're freaking .
I never , I never . Consistency wasn't my goal . Okay , I mean obviously that's what I'm saying . Like you're the most inconsistent person I think I've ever met , I'm consistent in some ways though , like I always pay my bills on time and I always do certain things that you know I . I comply with laws and regulations and forms and bills and deadlines you do .
You think , things I comply with . That taught me that , but consistency in all other ways , no , it's never been a goal .
Yeah , I remember back in the day like when we were paying bills of our AP was pretty high . Yeah , we got back in the day that was a yeah , but you were relentless on . As soon as we got some payment in , it's like , okay , who are you gonna pay off today ? Get it done , relentless like you .
There was nothing else that you were focused on that day other than how many wires were sitting and you , the other room slamming your head look table screen . We did . We sit that out , yet we gotta get that out . I mean it's just like . And then in the next thing you know , they were back at .
We're screaming where we were the morning broke again and I've been my brain . I was like , don't you want to keep this for a few days ? and we have no , you didn't , man . I mean that . That was a good lesson .
Well , no only because you know people . If you're doing business with people , they want to do bit . Yeah they like you and will do favors for you . If you're a fast payer , yes . If you're a slow payer , then you're gonna get De-prioritized . They'll work , they'll do stuff for you if they got nothing better to do .
I don't want to be that kind of a client or , you know , a buyer of whatever they're selling .
I just don't . I think another term in relation to everything we're talking about is that there is 100% such thing as business karma man . Yes , there is , bro , like I have .
You know , put out good and good . Yeah , you put out bad and bad . Bad stuff happens .
That's an episode on its own man and like what are all the details and what is good and bad karma ? Because I mean like it will ? I have seen it happen myself and I've seen
¶ The Importance of Values and Partnerships
. You know from a couple of things that I did . I actually told you that I texted you like the way I left is like why I'm not very proud of you .
I know , I know I never know didn't get it . I know you didn't man .
It was awesome . Yeah , I didn't feel good about it , yeah , and I felt like that . That that returned to me in In a in a way that that was not the most pleasant thing , you know , and and so .
But that's the lesson learned , and you know that's not that big of a deal , because I don't do anything really bad , just , yeah , you just move it on , but I was a kid man , yeah .
I was just a kid , it's okay . Okay , I Never had any ill feelings towards you , ever at all . Well , I appreciate that you were always a good person to work with and you always tried to do you could do to make things successful and , yeah , keep everybody happy .
Well , I appreciate that man , but I didn't feel good about but you know . But then I've seen other people in throughout the business that did not do good things and it's detrimental .
I'm not even like it when it was going on the things that weren't doing good and I was like it , obviously didn't feel good when it happened to me , but I certainly didn't even like to know that down the road it's going to multiply on them . I'd like karma thing , like man that is . I hate that for them .
We only have one reputation , so that's obviously super , super critical . You've got to protect that with everything you got . But back on partners okay , when I do see unethical behavior of a partner , that's a problem . And or super selfish behavior , all right , the selfishness is bad .
It's really hard to once I make that determination that I think somebody's being selfish or unethical . I'm going to be pretty harsh in my judgment of them and it's going to be really difficult for us to be partners . What would you do in a situation like going forward .
I mean like how would you hate , I mean , how would you ?
You know , the first time we had Swig or Swig White , we had like 23 or 24 partners . Now , fred and I combined , I think we still had like 75 to 78% of the company . So , put on that order , okay . At the time we sold it . However , you know , we had all these other partners in there and the way .
Honestly , a few times I just had to let people go , partners or not , we're going to part ways , gotcha , it's not working out , so we're just going to just bomb out and yes , okay , and we had very well-documented buyback provisions and time , you know , to pay back their ownership and valuation methodology . Baked it in the ownership agreements .
Where do you see ? Where do you ?
see S Corp . S Corp . Yeah , never had any question or problem with any of that , never got challenged . Everybody signed the agreements . Everybody lived and died by the same agreement .
Got it and that's what's important about corporate structures . Yes , that's why you have to get your . I mean , like you can't go to legal zoom and just download and then sign documents , man , it will freaking , it will hurt .
It's going to hurt . I mean , I just seen case after case of it Case . I mean , even people I work with at the U of A , who teach entrepreneurship , who actually are entrepreneurs , have made some of the classic mistakes in that regard Of undocumented relationships or poorly documented relationships with business partners .
Yeah , and then they end up in the newspaper , yeah , with lawsuits .
Yeah , and that's not good . That goes back to the reputation thing , whether it's true , valid or not .
Exactly , it's toxic . It casts a shadow over you . Yeah , that's going to be really hard to escape . Well , make sure that people doubt , right ? Yeah , and people talk about it forever . I mean , we live in an area it's got like 600,000 people now and people around here are still talking about stuff that people did wrong 20 years ago . Have you noticed that ?
True , very true , it's true .
Yeah , it's a big deal it is .
It's so like when you're getting in , if you are going to get in a partnership , you both have to be on the same page in the beginning , like how those legalities are set up , and you have to believe in that document , right , that corporate set up , yes , and all the things you mentioned , yes , and you have to be aligned and that's your guiding principle .
It is , it's got to be there . And another thing that you said at earlier values . So I did a values exercise a long time ago that it was after I was in partnership and , man , it was ruthless , trying to identify those with my partner , you know , because they aren't the same person I am . I believed in it .
Sure , they were kind of going along that that was such a big deal to establish values , the characteristics and the beliefs that I have , along with my partner allotting to that to set the values of the company .
It's super important . I think most of the exercises I've seen to define values in companies are absolute crap , but it's super important . I mean , don't you agree though ? Yeah , I mean the values . They've got these sort of empty statements of platitudes that they don't actually live by , and then that's just what they want to be , not play on Aspirational values .
I mean , values are values . They're not aspirational in my mind . Yeah , true Goals can be aspirational , or a vision can be aspirational , but values you gotta live those you do you know you do .
It has to be within your being and it's basically an exercise of trying to get out between you and your partner but you deeply already believe in and who you identify as you are right and then you bring those together and that actually defines the company Right , you know , if you're those two part it should , yeah , it should , and then that's the expectation .
And what I loved about that exercise is it helped us identify who we actually hire .
Yes .
That is super critical . Super critical because if the folks you're hiring , or even vendors or customers you deal with Right and when you don't want to lie to that , it's going to be devastating . It is , it absolutely is . That's what wreaks havoc all over the place .
Yeah , most companies , though . I mean , they don't act like that's really within their control to hire people that have the right values . They don't act like they can shed any clients who don't really have the right values . They , you know , isn't that true , though ?
It's like , well , you know it's hard to hire people , so we're gonna hire , you know so and so over there , yeah , it's kind of doesn't really have half of what we want in a person . Yeah , you know .
JS taught me that so well . I like just watching him about how he brought people in the company . He was just he's genius man . He was just so diligent about it and was patient , thoughtful , studied .
It's an essential skill if you want to build a business beyond some small business that goes nowhere .
So true , being able to identify those people that are the ones that have what you need in the right orientation , and then get them on your team Yep , and the reality is that you know , and the partnership thing is not only was you know we strong and weak in other areas and able to do that with the values , but then it's just a matter of time to dedicate
to those things .
Yes .
You know JS would spend so much time Like he even to you know the end at White Spider . He would interview everybody that was coming to that company .
Yeah , I think that's smart Dude , so smart . If you're running a business , why wouldn't you care about everybody on the team ? Yeah , I mean , if you were a football coach , would you let somebody else recruit a player and sign them . That's a good point . Without meeting them , yeah , what the .
That'd be pretty stupid , and making some kind of determination yourself about whether they were gonna be right or not .
That's right , that's crazy . Yeah , I mean it's . You know , it's a .
We're building a winning team here , man . That's it , man .
Champions , yes , champions , yes . Look man , I just wanna be around like five to 10 people that are freaking champions . I agree , bro , like I feel like I can do anything under the sun with a small amount of freaking Class A champions .
It's true , and it's not like we don't encounter bad things or setbacks , right , I mean , I gotta say it's like there's tons of setbacks , there's tons of negative information out there and damn near everything I get involved with . Ooh . But we've got the vision . I know you've got the value system and that you're working hard over here , just like me .
Okay , that's it . We will overcome whatever the obstacles are . We will overcome Hell . Yeah , all right , it's not delusional if we're gonna do what we need to do . It is delusional if we just say we're gonna overcome . By the way , we're not gonna do anything we need to do to fix the situation or get past this obstacle .
Yeah , I mean , my thing is on a resume and even in an interview . How do you measure the get a shit that somebody has ?
Yeah , I know . Well , it's hard . It is hard . You can ask them for stories . That's what you look for .
Yeah , you can sense that when somebody is self-determined and wants to be part of a team that are all rising up Doing stuff man .
Well , yeah , and have standards of excellence . We used to always go look at the cars in the parking lot to see what they look like . If they were driving like a really trashy car filled up with junk in the interior , yeah , nah , it didn't have to be anything fantastic , but are they maintaining what they've got ? There you go .
Taking care . Yeah , are they happy Are ?
they proud of what they have . It's there a standard that they have to keep in every way ?
Yeah , Remember , you looked at my car . Actually I can't remember .
You had like a Lexus , yeah , an old Lexus .
Yeah , I remember . Yeah , it was like a . I bought it for my dad , I think , and he drove it for like 30 years . Oh , it wasn't that old , for God's sakes , but I remember you judging me about it .
No , I judged me , I didn't judge you from that . Your car was fine . I do remember , though , that remember Katen , who worked for us , and we harassed him endlessly when he bought a Toyota . What is that ? The luxury , big Toyota that he bought ? Not a Camry , but the next level of Cressida . No , it wasn't a Cressida , it was gosh .
Whatever , it was just a big sedan . Yeah , it was a big sedan , and we looked at the average age of the buyer . It was like 72 years old or something . We had a little too much fun .
That guy man busted him man , I just talked to him the other day .
He lives in India , he's got his MBA and he works for a private equity firm he started getting good .
He started talking towards the end . He was returning to smack talk man . And I remember there was a couple of them and they were like he shut me up , that's his terrible .
You know he's getting so good at it .
So partnerships would you advise as a beginning , new or even a returning entrepreneur ? Partnerships , are they good or are they bad ?
I think they're good if you get the right person . What do you think ?
I would say yes to that , and then if you understand how to be a good partner Like you can't .
No , you're right , you have to be , because you can't operate with impunity . You can't be selfish . You got to know that you're part of the team . You got to carry your weight . It's definitely a reciprocal deal , for sure .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , and I think that there's also just like I didn't . I know what I had my partnership for . There was no like deep analysis about it , but there was a good sense and , to your point , I knew that they were really good at something that I was , that I wasn't really good at , and also I had no interest to be good at .
Yeah , Like I think that's where a lot of the magic happened for me is like I did not . Not only was I not good at that , but I'd not have zero desire to compete with you in the goodness of whatever you're good at . Yes , and let you roll with that . Yes , you know , and then respect that and appreciate it , being grateful and thankful and yeah , exactly .
Well , you've always been so nice , you know how to treat people . Yeah , yeah , somebody taught you Toyota Avalon . That's what he had , and my mother-in-law had one too .
That's an Avalon .
I'm telling you , and especially if you get it in that like champagne color oh yeah , that's what his was right , yeah it screams old man . Okay , this guy was like 22 , 23 .
What are you doing ?
We're giving . Yeah , it's like Like you don't even go to car lots by yourself anymore . Do you want to get any dates ? I mean what ? Do you have your AARP card ?
Right , he's just trying to get discounts , man , that's what he was trying to do .
I get him now In Zanya and I went to see . Do you ? Yes , we get all the senior discounts . I was left to see that Ferrari movie Christmas Day Eve was awesome . Have you seen it yet ? No , no , enzo Ferrari man , he was a gutsy guy . I'll tell you .
I love it . It's a good business . So you got a discount to go see . Yeah , we get the senior .
Fantastic , mark , congratulations . It's like 10 something versus like 14 or whatever .
You know , Well done bro .
Yeah .
Do you get that when you go to your fast food joints too , because you're always you know I hadn't thought about that .
I should ask , bro , you have seen like Burger King ?
Yes , I get discounts too , man . I think they started the senior discount thing , bro . You need to take advantage
¶ Food Preferences and Family Recall Discussion
of that I do . What did you eat today ?
Olive and I , my 17-year-old , we went to Arsigas toast oh wow .
OK , well , that's because you had Olive with you .
That you did that Exactly . It was her request , otherwise I'd have had like a nice sausage , biscuit and hash browns .
Do you go to hard McDonald's ? Do you ever go hard ? We don't have any . Do we have a hearties and fail ?
hardies is gone and oh man , that's terrible went out of business .
Nobody went there , yeah yeah , it was kind of say they didn't revive , now revitalize themselves . They , my grandparents , but they camped out at hardies back . Did they like hardies ? They loved hardies , the hash browns , like it was what they did .
Did they go to stock car races ? Hardies was always a big sponsor of that . I don't know that one thing . Yeah , your dad was a professor .
Yeah , so is he still ? Yeah , no , no , he's been retired for about 10 years now . Okay , he's the Psychologist . He was the chair of the psychology department .
Yeah , he's a thinker .
Yeah , he's still things . That's awesome . I thought of myself as I get older just sitting there thinking like what am I thinking about ?
But I just went to , so I went somewhere . You know that famous quote from Mark Twain . It was like when he was 18 he couldn't believe how dumb his dad was , and when he was 20 , it's something to this effect yeah , but when he was 25 he couldn't believe how much his father had learned over the next last seven years . That's a good point .
A little appreciation for overtime , right , big time man . Well , listen , eric , I think our conversation is done for today . Time is crap . That's great . We . We encourage our listeners to write us with whatever questions you'd like for us to deal with you , and it's something that we're gonna start reading some of those and talking about them .
The new year , they shout . The new year coming up in in the new year . We're , as we record this , the year is almost over , mm-hmm , and thank God , christmas is over . Bahum bug is what I'd like to say to that . Ah .
Humbug ? Why do you say bottom of the Christmas ?
if you looked at my MX bill for the month , you would know why I'm saying bahum bug . Okay , it's staggering . It's your great with the economy , man , it's stressful this time of year , yeah you know yeah it really is .
I mean just trying to get everything done and make everybody happy and go all the places that you're supposed to go , and you Know what I do love the whole .
You know what I love the holidays most about ? Yeah , okay , yeah , you see what I mean . Yeah , you did some stuff there , didn't buddy ? He went out .
Didn't do anything . It's an boss yeah for people .
Yeah .
What I've always loved about holidays is that people ghost out , and it gives me that one to two weeks time , relentless focus , to plan the attack of the shit . I hear you I'm doing , I can bring the shank out . Yeah , january 2nd at 7 am . Baby , I love it , I do too . And then everybody's like , oh , whoa , yeah , you're back . Here we go .
Yeah , this is how we roll .
That's it , the the new year . It starts a hole . We got a whole new blank sheet ahead of us .
It's what's possible , but I got it all figured out the last two weeks . Yeah , you're welcome . Yeah , that's good . It's been a good thing . All right , man .
All right . Well , hey , everybody the other . I guess the other thing I want to say is make sure you log into our website . We don't have to log in . Well , our we're gonna have a website and and and sign up for our email list www .
Big talk about small business , calm , and If you're interested in becoming a sponsor of our program , we have somebody here who would love to talk with you .
Yeah .
And yeah , who can , who can help you out with that ? Yeah , again , I mean , we're not gonna take just anybody as sponsors , that's right . We better believe in what they're doing you better line to our values .
That's right . Damn it , yep . But if you are a Sausage , egg and biscuit company , we'd love to Especially .
You can supply some of those to us here in the studio .
Yeah , if you're McDonald's and you want to sponsor with just unlimited supply of Fast food for Mark's why you can , you can get it big Mac .
She like big Mac , I love big . My daughter Olive , who's sitting in our lobby right now , she told me she had a dream last night . We're , a big Mac meal cost 75 bucks .
What ? Yeah , oh , she had a dream about a dream about it . Yeah , dude , that could be where we're at one day .
I let me tell you every time I drive through Starbucks with my kids in the morning and pay 20 bucks , I'm like this is ridiculous .
You can't get a . I mean I , my daughter gets like she bought like a seven dollar and fifty cent drink the other day might get that .
a tall Frappuccino , which is tall in their nomenclature , means small , yeah yeah , just another one of my pet peeves . Okay , and it's friggin Dollars for a like a 12 ounce drink .
It's insane man but then they want to tip . Why is it ? Can we have an episode about why everybody wants a tip ?
Do we want tips , but we don't get them , for God's sake , that's dude , it drives me nuts .
I'm like man you like , why do I have it ? It's so embarrassing . Now , you like , you pull out your debit card , yeah , and you're just trying to buy something and it says tip 20% , 25% , I know , or no tip , and I have to sit there and push that no tip button and then they're like you , so be .
If I could spit in your food right now , I would , but it's already out here . I just feel like it's so rude man it grew up in the server in the right , I know you worked at holiday and I recall , yeah , bro , I've worked for the tip man , right , like I talked for the tip .
Now , if somebody's nice to me and broadens my day , I'll tip them . Sure , actually , I'll tip them . Well , right . But I mean , you got work for that tip man . I worked for the tip . I hadn't expecting you to give me a tip .
I bought two smoked turkeys from a local restaurant for Thanksgiving . I ordered them and advanced and I go to pick them up and it's like 150 bucks . But what's the tip ? Like a tip , I just picked up these damn turkeys , like you should , just to give you like 30 bucks . They handle me , you should have payroll .
Okay , I'm worked into the props of my turkey man .
Anyway , well , that's a subject for another day , but , um , in any case , this has been another episode of big talk about small business , and we'll see you next time , thank you , thank you , thanks for tuning into this episode of big talk about small business .
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