¶ The Gents Place
This is Mark Swig , and I'm here with my co-host , eric Howerton , as well as a very special guest today , ben Davis , who we'll introduce in a moment . But this is another episode of Big Talk About Small Business , and we're here in beautiful northwest Arkansas . The weather is perfect outside , really is .
I drove here on the highway with all my windows down , my sunroof , open . Your hat was your hat on , my hat stayed on , and then suddenly , though , like a straw wrapper went flying out of the car . I felt so bad . Was that from Burger King or McDonald's ?
It was from my kids From , yeah , it was McDonald's , of course , but you know , I'm just like this rampant litterer driving my Mercedes down the highway and throwing shit out the window . It was pretty embarrassing , frankly , although it was just a straw wrapper .
But your hair was flowing , though , yeah , and the Taco Bell bag that I knud under my seat fortunately didn't fly out . But anyway , it's always good to be here with you , eric and Ben . We're lucky to have been with us today . Now , you and Eric go back . Have some connection from the past , don't you Ben ?
I think so . So Eric is . He claims to be a OG Gents Place member in Bentonville , so I still need to fact check that , but he has been , it is true . Okay , all right , so we'll . We'll claim that .
So , yes , we own the Gents Place brand and Josh Safran there in Bentonville is our franchisee , and Eric apparently has been been looking and feeling his best , thanks to us , for five years straight .
Well , he is a good looking guy . Thanks , mark .
I will say Appreciate that man , and it now get better looking every time I go to the Gents Place . I was actually there yesterday . So , ben , you don't not only was an OG , not only an MIOG member , but I'm an all access member at that . Did you know that ?
you'd ? Yeah , man , I did not . I didn't know I was speaking to an all access member . I feel like I buttoned up , man I feel like I should have worn a you know , a suit and tire . I would have been better prepared for this call .
I'm missing out . I don't know what all access means exactly , but I'm going to learn about that . But so , ben , tell us a little bit about your business and your background and how you got into it .
Yeah , so I I'll try to be a little concise , but it does go all the way back to 2008 . So I actually got an SBA loan two weeks before Lehman brothers collapsed , at 25 years old , starting the Gents Place . Uh , yeah , it was crazy timing . And uh , my banker actually called me and said , hey , you haven't started spending your money from your SBA loan yet .
And I said yeah , you know , the construction is going to start in eight weeks or whatever . He said you need to start spending money now . Send an invoice to your contractor and so we can trigger the loan . Otherwise we may take it back from you .
So that was my entry into entrepreneurship and I didn't know and you guys probably have worked with contractors and builders enough there is a . It's probably the only time it's ever happened in the world where you know you call a contractor up and it's like can I wire you $50,000 today ? I don't need an invoice , and that's what I had to do .
I didn't realize I would never , ever want to do that to a contractor to pay him for work before anything starts so fast forward . So that's 15 years ago . Started the business ? Crazy time ended up opening in December oh eight , in Frisco , texas , just north of Dallas and had no experience in the hair business no experience really as an as an entrepreneur .
But I had built with a team . As a fifth employee at a company called Goosehead Insurance , I'd built that company from five to 150 people with the CEO . And so I felt at 25 years old I knew everything and I was going to go out and strike out on my own and so open the Gents place . And so the Gents place is a membership base .
I said what drew you to hair ?
Oh , really easy . I hate . I realized I hated two things in life . One was getting my haircut and the other was going to the grocery store , and I avoided both at all costs and I didn't have enough money to open a grocery store and it seemed kind of boring .
Now I realized I would go and get my haircut twice as short as I wanted , so I wouldn't have to go back for twice as long . I hated it that much and so I thought if I could fix a personal problem .
You're 25 , you've had some success in another business . You decided to go into this business . You got yourself a loan for a build out . Then what happened ?
I was in the business with cold water because we couldn't get the hot water to work . The day I opened my business was the day of my son's second open heart surgery . He was one years old , so I worked the front desk from 10 am to 8 pm that day and then I drove 45 minutes to go be with him after his open heart surgery . So it was crazy time .
So , 25 years old , no money kid with health problems , but we were entrepreneurs . We were able to control our own destiny , which was ultimately all that really mattered to us at that time .
Hey , ben to that . So what did you do that made it special ? How did you grow this business ?
Yeah . So the concept was what it is today , but probably on steroids . We wanted to create a place where I actually wanted to go and get my haircut . I looked forward to it . In order for that to happen , we needed to do something more than just haircuts , and so we created a membership based model that was focused on building community .
We call it a community of influential gentlemen a place where you could expand your business network , where you could expand your influence in the community , a place where there was personalized experiences , where you felt like people knew exactly what you wanted and anticipated your needs so you could expand your beverage ready when they saw you pulling into the parking
lot and coming in the front door . And so we created a concept that was I call it a country club meets speakeas , he meets barbershop it's kind of the way I visualize it . So I figured , if we could pull that off , that we would create a place where Mark would want to go to instead of avoid at all costs like I was doing .
Well , clearly I don't go to the barber too often , or I wouldn't look like this Didn't you say you were ? This was for , like , some kind of gentleman ? How did Eric get into this thing ? That was my thought .
Money , money . Okay , it's subscription , mark . Yeah , not too much qualification . Do you have a subscription ? So I'll actually testify as a long-term gents play subscriber that I mean everything . Ben , you talked about that country club atmosphere , networking , I mean personalization , it happens , I mean it's actually , it's .
You know , I think , ben , what you're saying is you hate it going to get a haircut , but you actually liked being in a network and going to a place where I mean there was a place to relax . You know , a place to chill out is actually an experience . That's . I mean , that's what .
I enjoy every time I go and everybody knows your name . They do Like Cheers they actually do , yeah .
It does make a difference for sure . It's crazy . All the stylists , like even the ones like I mean you know I have one that I go to every time , but I mean all the stylists know who I am and people at the front desk do greet me with a drink every time . Wow , I got my own locker there . That is so cool . Yeah , it's super chill .
I mean you get super nice lounge chairs . I mean it's like going to a country club and hanging out . That is awesome . I've had meetings there . Have you really Business meetings ? And stuff .
Yeah , it's great ,
¶ Hair Industry Entrepreneurial Growth and Franchising
that is cool . Well , you started in a really entrepreneurial area there in Texas , where you are , ben . How did you grow the business from there ?
Yeah . So Facebook ads had just come out that year that we opened and we took full advantage of that . So our primary acquisition vehicle for new customers was displaying ads on Facebook for a completely complimentary member day pass . So it was come in for a day , we'll roll out the red carpet . We were so good , let us prove to you that we're worth it .
And so we got thousands and thousands of form fills online that we ran through a marketing system , went through email , text message , follow up on phone calls , online booking , and we drove a lot of traffic into the business immediately and it was a very novel concept at the time .
There's a lot of copycats today , but guys were really looking for a place that was other than I'll call them XYZ clips , joints to put everyone in the same bucket , and it was too good of an offer to pass up . So that really built the business over the first several years .
Also smoothed out your cash flow , I think with the subscription model .
Well , yeah , the interesting thing about the subscription model is we have a big cash lever we can pull with an annual membership . So you know , eric's , on annual membership We've got anywhere from $600 to $8,000 cash lever we can pull if we're really good at what we do . So you could have a relatively slow traffic day in the business maybe .
See , you know 20 or 30 guests . But if you sell four or five annual memberships , you know you have a four , five , six , seven , eight $10,000 day . You've got to be good at what you do . You know people are taking a risk with their money . But that's attractive about the business when you're offering a comp service .
You've got to convert those annual memberships .
I mean it sounds like to do this you had to do pretty expensive build out . I mean you've got probably more facilities investment than the typical mail oriented hair place I would assume .
Yeah , everything about what we do is luxury . It's bigger , it's nicer , you know , restoration , hardware , furniture , full complimentary top shelf , bar , member lounge , liquor lockers . We want guys to come in and feel at home when they get their haircut and hopefully they spend some extra time there and invite their friends .
Wow , that sounds awesome . I'm gonna have to check this out myself , eric . It might look a little better . You might the next time I see you Might so , ben . So now you grew this business and do you have a franchise model now at this point , with your additional locations ?
Yeah , so we started with the SBA loan in 08 and in 2016 we decided to franchise the business and we took on some small investors but big names . So Jerry Jones and Emmett Smith came on as investors and partners in the brand in 2016 and 2017 . And we started franchising .
So we awarded several franchise licenses early on and as we started to get locations open , covid hit and so we've had took a few years off from franchising but just restarted our efforts this year and our next location will be opening in the Midland Odessa area oil country .
Nice , very cool . So when you started your franchise , I mean , had you you had just one original location or had you already built a couple more in your area ?
Yeah , we had . We had . We had three locations when we decided to franchise open our fourth right when we filed all of our paperwork . And my second location is actually in Kansas City . It was an acquisition . So it was probably against all common business practice and certainly advice I was being given .
But I got a phone call a year into our business in Frisco and someone had built a similar place in Kansas City and could not make it work for a variety of reasons and we ended up acquiring that business out of state .
So my second business was out of state and that forced me to create systems and controls and SOPs early on in the business and I think that's ultimately what gave me the confidence to franchise . We had already kind of quasi-franchised and having a location out of state and having to operate it remotely , yeah , what were some of your learnings about that distance ?
right , so I mean , like for anybody that's looking to kind of like scale their business , but I mean you went . I mean I don't know how many miles that is , but I can tell you it's probably a good eight hour drive to get up to Kansas City from Dallas .
Right , so that that distance had to cause some problems because I mean just building out , making sure things are running correctly , managing that , I mean all your SOPs , everything you're trying to instill I mean you had to have some challenges with that . I mean , what did you ? What were some of the painful points to that ?
Yeah , and I'll even start with just a recommendation before I forget , for anybody that's starting a business is started as if you are not there physically in the business . Even if you are there , you can force yourself to be out of the business to figure out what you need to systemize and create those SOPs early on .
You know , I was fortunate enough to be forced to do it because I had this business out of state , but I would highly recommend doing that because eventually you probably don't want to be in the business every hour of the day . I worked the front desk the first 18 hours , or at first 18 months , for 12 hours a day , most days of the week , to learn .
The business had no idea what I was doing .
But the challenge is Good way to learn .
Yeah , just remote , do it , yeah well , yeah . Well , that's again . There's a bunch of different philosophies out there and you know in business on , you know , do you learn everything yourself and then you start to kind of delegate it out . Or , you know , do you delegate the stuff out that you don't want to do and you don't care and you're not good at ?
And my approach has always been to have first hand knowledge of something before I delegate it out , because you know employees , team members they don't work out most of the time right , most people don't stay with you forever and I need to be able to potentially step in or at least have the internal confidence to know I know their job and I know how to hold
them accountable and I could step in if I need to . And that gives me that confidence that you know I don't need a bad team member in my way because they're holding me hostage in my business .
But to answer your question about remote management , you know I have a podcast called the Untrapped Entrepreneur and that podcast is really centered around giving advice to entrepreneurs on how to , you know , create a business life that does not require you to be physically present in a place at any given moment to get the job done , and so , for me , I always have
a mindset that when there's a failure in the business is that systems fail . People don't , and I could get an arguments all day long about whether that's true or not , but I think the majority of the time I have found that if there's a problem in the business , it's a system failure , and I just need to solve the system and not not the , not the person .
And so I'm really big on creating systems in every single aspect of my life , from my own personal email management to , you know , operating a multi-million dollar facility , order management , everything else and so I would say do not wait on creating Systems . Pretend like you're not going to be in the business . You're gonna be , you know , on vacation for 30 days .
Someone else is gonna run it and build your business around that concept .
Okay , that's interesting , I might . I think that's a good advice . Plan for growth . Don't just expect to be a small operation forever . So tell us , like as far as and I know a lot of hair businesses , I've seen Mostly their Women , female oriented ones .
They tend to operate basically as providing a facility and then they rent out the space to individuals who pay them rent . Is that the way your business model works , or do you have some different practices ?
Yeah , there's really three segments in the in the beauty industry , at least at the brick and mortar level . So the first is a Commission based Hair stylist . So they're working inside someone else's business , getting paid a commission , and that's mostly female operators working on female clients .
And Then maybe they grow out of that and they want to run their own business . So you have the booth rental business and this is where someone's paying typically a weekly fee To operate in someone else's building , but they're running their own business , they're booking their own appointments , everything else .
So that's kind of a real estate play from an investor standpoint . And then you have the third , which is our segment , which is really a team-based environment . It's all W2 team members , very rich benefits .
So we have matching 401k , we have health insurance , we have paid vacation , paid community service , mental health visits , doctors visits , you name it some of the best benefits you know across Industry verticals .
And that particular type of team member is someone that is choosing to work in a team environment and may not want all the stress of running their own business , booking their own appointments or Kind of eating what they kill .
So you should be able to get better people . I would think , yeah , that model versus them having to Go out and bring it all in and then just get a percent , you know , either get a percentage of it or pay for the overhead of the business themselves Seems like you'd get better people you get . Yeah , you know .
I think the other side would probably argue this point but Someone who's really great at what they do and they charge $200 for men's haircut and they own their own business and they operate their own booth , they're probably giving fantastic haircuts . So from a quality standpoint , they may be really good at what they do . Otherwise it'd be out of business .
I think what you find in our business is you find people that are culturally aligned and aligned from Come a mindset standpoint . Like Eric comes into the gents place because he wants to feel a team Oriented culture , a team environment .
Everybody's working together on his behalf , making him feel , look and feel as best , and if Susie's not there one day to cut his hair , jenny will be right there to back her up and the there's continuity in his service experience , and so that's what the members expect . The team members Are in our industry segment because they want to make friends .
They don't want to work by themselves in a little hundred square foot booth , and so it is really a match made in heaven when everybody's getting along , because everybody wants to be there and connect with other people and build relationships .
Yep makes sense . You know , been one thing that I noticed too , just you know , as I've Been a customer is that you also have some pretty neat . This allows you to have good incentives to write for the team To where they can be challenged . They have targets and metrics and things of that nature .
When did you start deploying , you know , some of those things with your team ?
Well , I did some research on both of you guys and I know mark . I haven't attended his class , but I know mark is very big on transparency and business and and being an open book right . So I believe the same thing and I always had that mindset . And I remember meeting with a competitor who's sent sold his business Private equity huge success .
I remember meeting with him two years into the business and I'd looked at becoming a franchisee of his and then I ended up opening the gents place and we met up and he said hey , I hear you're posting your Revenue and profit numbers and you're in like you're going over your P&L's with your hairstylist . Is that true ? And I said , yeah , it's true , he goes .
Well , why would you do that ? Said , well , because they need to know if we're making money or losing money . And he's he was just blew his mind . He's like I don't think I could do that as Really too risky . He goes . He even said he goes .
So what if you make 80 thousand dollars in a month in revenue and they think it's profit and they think you made all that money ? And I said , well , I'll leave his name omitted . That's why you have to educate them that 80 thousand and revenue is not 80 thousand in profit .
¶ Transparency and Customer Service in Business
So from an early , early age in business for me I was just putting it all out there . Every day we're posting revenue reports , profitability , productivity , I mean everything is front and center and it is a culture where you can't hide . I mean there's a stack rank .
You know top and bottom Pretty much everything and we , you know we have a team environment and help everybody out . But it started from the beginning is when you have that transparency , then kpi start to come up that people care about , they're meaningful to the business and and everyone's aligned and driving the right numbers .
Oh man , that's , that's really progressive .
I think there's such a great opportunity to take a business where people don't do that yeah , and do that , oh yeah , you would come in completely change the country and drive to the next level . Yeah , I mean it's like you know you're they're gonna have more trust for management .
I mean , we've talked about these things before , that the you know the studies that show that the Employees of restaurants think the owners make something like 27 times or 29 times what they actually do . That's why you got to do that stuff , and it's really is interesting how many business owners are afraid to do it .
I think they either are taken too much out or they're afraid that's going to be discovered , or they're not making anything and they're embarrassed . What do you think ?
Yeah , well , on the expense side too , we've done some fun things in the past where we have monthly team meeting . We're like , okay , whoever can guess the rent In this facility you know closest to rent , get to gift card . And and You'll hear , I mean it's crazy , because you know someone will go 5,000 , 50,000 , or like , okay , you have five to 50 .
These people have no idea , right , they're just throwing numbers out . Um , the other question that we ask them to that's always fascinating to me and we do this one more regularly is we ask him the top one percent , or top to say , top 10 percent , top 10 percent of our members . What do you think they make per hour in their jobs ?
Because we're trying to get a reference point for them , because they're in this kind of , they get paid hourly , plus bonuses , commissions , all of that , and I'm always just fascinated with trying to get to figure out where they are .
And again , you'll hear as low as 25 an hour Too , as high as maybe 200 an hour , and that's where I kind of give them the big you know reveal . And I said the guy I worked for Before I started the gents place 15 years ago , who's now worth several billion dollars , they took , end up taking the company public .
15 years ago actually it's 20 years ago at bain consulting , he charged $2,000 an hour for his time $2,000 an hour 20 years ago and people are like they can't even fathom it it's it's anywhere from 10 to 100 times more than they thought it was , and so we use that as a , as a An example and a learning moment for the value of their time .
So if you run someone 15 minutes late , that could be $500 .
Yeah , yep , that's really good . I like that .
Yeah , it puts them in the cut . I mean that Again . I mean I think one biggest things in business is understanding your target audience . Right , Amen .
And so if you know who your target audience is time is so precious to them , Yep and then you can Demonstrate that you respect , that , you appreciate it and you help with that , then I mean you're gonna keep passing happy customers . I mean that's yeah , you know . I mean I know when I go in , I mean that's like time is of , is on the clock .
I mean it's like they're , they're very much on top of it and so that's a hard thing to do . It shows respect .
I think for you , mm-hmm , if nothing else , you know , it's like you're considerate and they're respectful of your time . I love that , ben . That's a really great idea .
Thank you . And I had a guy what really burned this into my brain when I was working the front desk for 18 months , had a guy I wasn't working the desk at the time and Someone else working there I get a phone call and this member says hey , ben , and so , and so I just wanted to let you know that I'm canceling my membership , not coming back again .
I said , oh my gosh , what happened ? You love this place . He said , well , you've run me late two times and I'm done . And you know , the first time it was like Something happened and it was excusable . And the second time , something happened and there's a reason for it .
And I said , well , but you know , the first time I remember , when you were late because I was working . And then the second , like today , this he said Ben , let me explain something to you . I'm not comparing your service to the service I could get at any other haircut establishment .
I'm comparing the service that you deliver to all the other places that I give my money to , like the Four Seasons , the Ritz Carlton , the Capitol Grill . He starts listing all these places and that that burned in my mind that if we're gonna serve this type of clientele , we have to be thinking about this business completely differently .
That's a really cool Story , um , the only but you did get me thinking there for just a minute . Um , sounds like some of your clients might be a pain in the ass and be a little carried away with themselves . I mean . I go to the Capitol Grill , I go to Ritz . Chris only you know what I mean . I that must be a hard customer base to take care of .
I mean you must really have to like hold back sometime Telling people what you think the hardest , the hardest customer base .
Um , but you know what man ? I like a challenge , I really do . I like I like the guy coming in that's had a terrible day and you can tell he just walks in and he's kicking the dirt and you know if there's a dog outside he'd kick that on the way in . And yeah , he's pissed off .
And I like seeing that guy and saying he has no idea what's about to happen to him . Because we have a system in place . We ask questions a certain way . We have this whole life coaching type of program that we take our team members through on how to turn grumpy mark around . You know , pissed off mark around . And we , you know I live for that .
That's why I love the business that we're in . I remember walking to my CEO's office and I told him we're growing this company really fast . I called all my friends from childhood in . They took the company public six plus billion dollar company from nothing .
I was a fifth employee there and I walk into my CEO's office and I'm quitting because I found my passion in life and he says what is it ? And I said customer service . And he goes oh Ben , no , no , customer service , you're running this organization like we're hiring , you know , 4.0 GPAs . We're going to take this company public one day .
And I attended this class at UT Austin for two days on the experiential economy . I learned about Starbucks and Rich Carleton and Four Seasons and all of these organizations that sold basically a commodity product and they made it really special and , for whatever reason , I just fell in love with that .
I love the challenge of taking a guy who has really high expectations and blowing him away and exceeding those .
That's a really great idea . You know , I've got a friend and we need to have him on the show at some time . He owns a whole bunch of car washes and oil change places and they're really different than anybody else's as far as his facilities , his people , the training .
He took five of his managers to Europe and stayed in five star hotels because he wanted them to see what really good service was . Because he says you don't even see it in this country . Yeah , I mean , I thought that was pretty interesting and progressive , don't you ? I mean , it's the same idea .
I did the same thing I've taken our team members to even if we couldn't afford Rich Carleton , we took them to the Fleming's Bar at the Rich Carleton in Dallas . We've taken them to five star restaurants so they could get that experience . And I'll tell you a quick story .
The very first time in 15 years I've had a candidate hang up the phone on me on an interview happened two weeks ago and it started to go downhill when I said have you ever eaten at a nice day , calc like for a dinner or a birthday or special occasion .
And 100% of the time I've had people say yes , I've interviewed thousands of people and this woman said no , she's like no , you've never had a nice place like birthday , anniversary , something , she's like not really . And I go , oh man , this is not good . And she ended up hanging up on me because I was- .
I thought you were going to say . She said yeah , I've been to Bonanza or somewhere . You know , you set a nice take house and then you knew that they weren't your person . But sorry , bailey .
That's right , chillies , yeah . But you know , I guess my desire to convert people over to living this Jens place experience out and having something better for themselves it got in the way and it offended her and I'm like I kind of went through my whole spiel and I go .
Well , but this is why do you think someone would pay $250,000 up front for a country club membership and $2,000 a month to maintain it ? What do you think they're buying ? And she's like I don't know , it's a golf club , right . And I'm like yes , it's a golf club , well , probably golf . And I go what if it isn't golf ? Because we all know it's not golf ?
At $1,500,000 up front , you can never get that return . You could play golf 100 times a day and still be over the public course fees and she didn't get it . I tried , I even used the okay you go to I said I know you haven't been a nice take house , but there's a $100 stake at a nice take house that exists right now in this world .
And let's just pretend you're willing to pay $100 for it and you move the stake over to the hot dog rollers at 7-11 , right , the same stake . You move it's $100 over here and you move it to the hot dog rollers at 7-11 . And I'm like what would you pay for that ? She's like if I'm really hungry , $10 .
And I go perfect , I got her right , I'm going okay . So it's worth more over here than over here . It's the same product . Why would someone pay $90 more to go to Capitol Grill ? Happens every day . She didn't know , and so I think I just got so frustrated that she said you know what ? This position is not for me and I said I agree .
Yeah , well , yeah , sounds like it was an effective interview in the sense that you figured out she was true . Jen's place material right .
It bothered me because I felt like I could convert everybody over to realizing the value of what we do . And she was a tough cookie , yeah .
I think that it kind of actually speaks to your entrepreneurial spirit there . When you say converting her over , I mean you can convert so many folks into your vision
¶ Investing in People and Growing Businesses
, right . But I think that I don't know about you , but I've had some hard knocks and just like , again , I mean you can invest in people , but sometimes it's just reality , Like they just , I mean they just don't get it , they just don't get it and you're just spinning your wheels and you can pour that energy elsewhere .
Yeah , I think obviously you've got to have certain standards and if people haven't ever experienced it themselves , really good service , I think it'd be hard to give .
And again , though , I just love this idea of these mature , fragmented , huge industries where people need the basic product or service , but here you have differentiated yourself and made it so much more premium and you go after the high end of the market . It's such a good business model for smaller businesses , I think , but most don't do it . I don't know .
They're afraid to spend the money on the front end , or afraid to ask , or they all think . I fight this every day , people who own businesses or want to own businesses , and they think pricing drives everybody's purchase decision and just doesn't .
No , no , it doesn't .
I think that you know , and to the point , like I mean , like no , ben , I'm sure that not all your customers you know me being one of them is not always you know , the high income earning folks right that are coming in , like I mean , but the fact is that these folks are , they work hard for a living and they just genuinely appreciate something good .
Something good , yeah , and they're willing to invest in that , and I think you've hit on that . So , like you can come in and get that high end service , and you know , without having to pay your arm and leg for it .
Yeah , it's expensive for what it is , but it's not really expensive in the context of life . That's right . That's the other thing , that's right , you know .
Yeah , yeah , I mean we're like 10 or $15 more per service than kind of the mid tier place . So yeah , from an absolute dollar standpoint it's not . I want to share one thing too that I think maybe answers your question mark , at least in some cases .
When you have this highly fragmented market , a workforce that is very low formal education , you have a customer based that is affluent , very discerning , that's high price point .
There's a massive gap between where the team member is and where the customer is , and the work that you have to put in to that team member is not like a SOP follow the SOP training manual . It is an investment into them as a person , as a human being .
So there's personal and professional development that needs to happen from the owner , from the leadership , from the brand , into these people on a constant , ongoing basis in order to have them start here and move their way up to at least understanding how the customer thinks , and that's what I'm really passionate about .
So if you ask me kind of what business we're in , we're in the business of growing people and the haircut's just the vehicle that gets guys in the door and they pay us at the checkout and everything .
But that's what I'm passionate about is taking a 19 year old , a 20 year old , a 21 year old , a 25 year old , a 40 year old that just has never had personal and professional development , no mentor nor no coach , and bring them into our world where they say , oh my gosh , I wish I would have come here 15 years ago , 20 years ago , and that's how we've
been able to keep . Some team members have been with us for 14 and a half years . Our average manager tenure is over seven years . It's unheard of in this industry .
Sure , I believe it . Well , you're kind of trying to raise their expectations in a way for themselves , it sounds like , through this process .
Well .
Ben , you're hitting on a universal thread , right , because I think a lot of entrepreneurs , you know , in the very early stages , they think , okay , I have this vision , I can see what needs to happen . Everything's on me , you know , I'm the only one that knows what's going on .
And they think it's a , you know , especially in the tech world , right , and all the software and all that industry that's growing , that it becomes more about the programming , it becomes about the technology , the automation and all these things . And they think that , you know , it's not a team play .
But the reality is , is every single business and I've been around a lot of tech and software businesses too in my time , in some of the biggest and smallest , like the pouring into the team , developing the individual person , you know , and trying to get them to , you know , to basically to mentor them up and to take an ownership , and having confidence and leading
other people , you know , is absolutely critical .
I mean , it's 100% critical and most people don't want to do it . That's what I was kind of getting at , mark .
¶ Considerations for Franchising a Business
Most of these entrepreneurs that I've met , they go Ben , I don't know how you do it , how you deal with all these crazy hairstyles , how you deal with these people . I deal with this . You should come over to my business and manage a bunch of NBAs , and I came from that world . I came from you know , a startup where I did . I did that and so it is .
I think a lot of people are afraid to address these problems . They don't chase , they chase opportunity and they chase what other people are succeeding in in , in , in business and they go there and for whatever reason , I am sure there I have a disease of some kind . I chase problems . I really like to solve problems .
I don't think it's a disease . Let me ask you a question , though , because I've something I've been really interested in in learning more about and I think there's probably a lot of listeners to franchising right . So you , you started a business right . You got your first location going , you did a couple more right Cause you saw the opportunities there .
But then you , what triggered what was actually triggering your , your ambition to go into franchising , the franchising model of the business , what triggered that ? And then tell us a little about the , the challenges that that were part of actually franchising , yeah ?
So I had the belief back in 2016 , and I think this has changed a little bit that in order for a gents place to be successful , there needed to be the man or woman owner there shaking hands and kissing babies and like that's what made the gents place work , and I convinced myself that that was .
You know , that was the only way to do it , and so franchising kind of lends itself to that model of that person being there locally in the community . We found that that's not necessarily the case . It's a good thing for sure , if you can have that . You have a Josh and Emily Safran and Bentonville .
They're going to run that Bentonville location much better than I would remotely . It's going to be more personalized . They're going to see people and play tennis with them and all of that . And so the franchising model if you have a business that is dependent on building relationships , I think the franchising model is great .
The challenge is you have to have a Josh and Emily Safran , and not everybody is Josh and Emily . Some people are not in their business very much . They're doing two or three or ten different things , or entrepreneurs , they're absentee owner , and that's where it gets a lot more challenging .
Where how can you replicate what Josh and Emily are doing and what Ben did back in 2008 to 2016 , being everywhere all the time , how can you replicate that ? And so that's where we're using pretty sophisticated marketing Techniques and systems and I'm not gonna be one of those like , we're not a haircut business , we're a technology business .
We're not in that position , but I can tell you that we do use technology , we do use data to Personalize and best serve our guests , and we're just getting started in doing that , in doing that at the next level .
And so I think what you'll see , you know , going forward from us is We'll open corporate locations , will open franchise locations , but we're gonna pick the franchisees that we know are going to be Like a Josh and Emily I'm not just saying that because I'm on a Bentonville show and you guys know them . They just do an Exceptional job .
I'm really glad to hear you say that , because I thought you were gonna go a different direction . I thought you were gonna say you want to have a business that can have an absentee owner . Hmm and all that . I'm not a big fan of those businesses , I mean , it seems like that would degrade what you're trying to do .
So you need to be very selective and you need people who are , who are highly involved . I would think I mean , or you know , the thing is not gonna . It's not gonna represent what you're all about .
No , and we have been able to have a blend that works . You know our most , our highest revenue locations . Well , our highest revenue location last year is a franchise location .
Our highest revenue location this year is and maybe I'll take the top two spots or my locations , which I'm very rarely in , but in those locations you have a manager that's been there for 11 years and one that's been there for eight years and they have a true sense , trained by me , grew , kind of grew up , grew up both personally and professionally , been through
divorces , been through having kids , been through life together , and so they treat that as if it's their own . And so that's where you know If you , if you , if you don't have a franchisee and you're gonna grow corporately , you better have somebody that lives and breathes that business and loves it almost as much as you do .
Yeah , I can see that could work , that's . That's not the same thing as , like , I'm selling out , I'm retiring from Tyson and I've got half a million bucks and I'm gonna open this thing because I don't really want to work that hard , ben . I'd worked hard in my corporate life but this seems like it could be good .
That's not the guy you want , I would think you know no . I'm gonna spend half my time here and half in my House in friggin Colorado or some shit like that , you know .
I see a lot of those guys fail .
I Mean , yeah , you can bring people up like you did . It's like a farm team , you know . You work them up through every job , you Hold their hands and , yeah , coach them daily and they turn into people who think like business owner , like you . But just the new franchisee , you know . You just kind of you wonder about that .
If they're not willing to make that investment into their people and we talked about that gap If they don't have the energy to invest to close the gap , then it's not right for them . There are absentee owner franchise models that are great , where you don't have to close the gap .
It's a yogurt shop , so you have the , the customer , the customer in the , in the cashier , maybe in the exact same place a lot of the time , and so you don't have to teach them how to be a great business person . You just need to teach you know . Find someone that can show up and follow the SOPs .
That Tyson guy that's got a half million bucks , we would tell him go find one of these other models that fit with absentee ownership . But you're gonna get clobbered in our business because you're gonna have a hairstylist that breaks down on you and says Her car's broken , she's getting divorced , this is , she's a single mother , and then what do you do ?
And if your response to that is I don't want to deal with that , then you're not gonna be a good franchisee for us .
Yeah , that's it sounds like the construction business , except it was guys and their cars were being repoed , you know . So it's like this one , this one guy named Gator . He lost his Monte Carlo SS and his Cavaliers E24 at the same weekend . Wow , that's a bad weekend . You know , that's a bad weekend .
I mean , the next weekend they're gonna jerk the double wide off the the lot . I mean it's . But yeah , now I get what you're saying and , and and that makes a lot of sense . So your selection with your franchisees , I mean .
Imagine you've probably learned some Hard knocks on that at some times , or maybe you've had some really great experiences . I mean , what kind of advice would you give to , you know , to a listener that's that's considered in that ?
Yeah , they're considering it as a business owner thinking about franchising their business . You know there's a bunch of legal steps and requirements and costs associated with that and when you get through those hurdles which that could be enough to scare you off it's kind of like going public . You know you get halfway through and you go what are we doing ?
This is gonna cost us two million dollars a year to service it . So you have to kind of jump over that hurdle and then when you finally go live in your , in your Taking on franchisees , it is a 10 year agreement in 10 years , believe it or not , and unfortunately is longer than most marriages in the United States .
So You've got to think about it through that lens and I'll just kind of leave it at that . Right , there's
¶ Franchisee Qualities and Business Growth Strategies
a lot that goes into that . If you're on the other side and you're considering buying a business , starting a business , and you're considering , and you're considering buying a business , starting a business , or buying into a franchise as a franchisee , what I found is the best fit for a franchisee .
So if you're , if you're thinking , okay , I wanted to , I want to own a business , am I a good franchisee ? A good franchisee , for my experience , has been someone that Does not want to take the enormous risk to start something on their own . They've decided they they think that's too risky . Yeah , so it's like that's step .
One Good franchisee says Ben , I would never want to do what you did . If someone says that to me and they're still interested in owning their own business , I want to talk to that person . If they come in saying hey , ben , you know I like what you do , but have you ever thought of taking the beams off the wall and changing the furniture ?
and joining in Before they know what the system is . Man , that's not good . Yeah , I'm with you . That's funny . Well , you'll get a lot of MBAs and engineers who might start doing that to you , you know . Yeah , it's like learn it , self-actualization . Learn it our way first . I mean , that's always the thing . I think you see it with employees too .
Yeah , you want to be open to new ideas and everybody's creativity , but when they just get there and they already want to change it and they haven't figured out , maybe , why things are the way they are first , that just bugs the hell out of me . It really does .
Well , to your point . Something my multi-billionaire former CEO and mentor taught me probably the first couple of weeks on the job is listen , execute , add . He said Ben , listen to what we're telling you to do , then do it and then add . Then tell us how we can make improvements .
When you have different types of people , you have the people that come in and they will listen and then they'll say but at my old company we did it this way and they skip over execution . Then you have people that won't listen and they'll say yeah , yeah , yeah , I'm the type that needs to get my hands in and just do it and execute without listening .
Then they tell you it didn't work . That's like me trying to put the cat tree together that came in from Ikea or Amazon . I'm like I don't need instructions , let me do it . I'm going to blame the cat tree for it , but the truly the most dangerous person in business , at least for us , is a person that comes in , or the franchisee that comes in .
They listen , they execute and then that's it . They listen and execute and they're like a robot . They're like yes , sir , boss , man , I'm here , just tell me what to do . We never get the ad out of them . Those are the ones that hold a business back from growth .
We require that , but you got to go in that order and we expect the ad Tell us when it's not working or that you can do it better , because that's what causes us to grow .
You can't just do listen , execute , because you can't anticipate every single problem that you're ever going to have . That tell them how to deal with it if it comes up . I mean , it's just , you can't . That's where it breaks down , I would guess .
Hey man , in a few minutes we got left . We got a couple of questions , if you don't mind . First is what are your plans ? You've built this business . It's growing . What's your plans ? Are you going to continue to try to scale this out as much as absolutely possible ? Do you have a what's your foresight on that ?
We just built a 2.0 model which we were waiting to start franchising again . Until we had this done , we just built the Gents Storecom , and the Gents Storecom is a way to serve our members outside of just grooming services where they can buy .
We have thousands of products on there from $30,000 electric vehicles to $1,000 leather bags and high end apparel and everything in between . Where they shop on the site and they earn 20% of their purchases , convert into annual membership credit , they could earn down their membership dollars .
Now we're kind of surrounding our members , both offline and online , in a way that allows us to deliver luxury to them , to deliver emerging brands and new things and community . The Gents Store is going to evolve over time but now that we've got that in place , we want to grow . We're going to grow .
We're opening another location soon and really hit January 2024 hard . In announcing to the world the new Gents Place model , we did a really good thing as we blocked every competitor out of doing what we're doing with the technology partner , who's the largest in the industry .
We think we've got a little bit of runway to get this done , to prove out a new financial model , and we feel like we've built a moat around the business that is worth making a big investment in . I'm personally making an investment into the company , in growth , and we're going to ask franchisees to do the same .
In your store , ben , to be a favor man there needs to be . I can't find it , and I mean it's about to be a little bit of gross , but a good like nose trimmer . They can't find one , you can't find one .
I've got an 80 volt cobalt that does a wonderful job . It's a weedwacker and a nose trimmer . Well , okay , no , I'm kidding , it's an X .
Mark , if you could commercialize that , we'll sell your product on the store I think you're my age .
Okay , I mean you think it's bad now , but it is a problem . It is a problem I mean , like I can't people can say well , have you tried the wall ?
What is it Wall ? Yeah , it's about , yeah , yeah , it's like . I'm like yeah , I've tried that , I've tried this , I've tried the tool for your nose , yeah , I mean , and it's battery operated and it doesn't really work .
No , it just kind of pushes things down . It's like a bad lawnmower with a dull blade . Yeah .
I mean , well , bam , do you have a bias on that man ? I mean , is there ?
one . No , no , taken , there is one . And we're , we're , uh , we're about to pull in a significant amount of product from some very big retailers that you have all heard of into the store .
So you're going to see , you'll literally see Gucci and Balenciaga and North Face and Nike , and gift cards show up on the site here pretty soon and , uh , I can get you a nose trimmer man , there's no problem at all .
Well , you appreciate that .
The problem is when you get to be my age , the hair on your head not only does it stop growing , it falls out right , but it makes up for it with your nose and your ears . You know , you guys are young , you haven't been there yet , but I'm sure Ben deals with old farts like me over there .
But I'm going to . I'm going to put you down for a wigs mark . I'll get wigs on the site as well .
So , but I do . But , ben , yeah , we do have some , some products that that , um , we'd love to talk with you about sometime that I think you know might fit in with your audience and , um , and you know it does make sense .
I mean , if you capture this group of highly affluent people of taste , then one good stuff , yeah , then you should be able to to , um , you know , tap into that audience and meet some of their other needs . It just makes sense to me .
Yeah , it's a big , big , big project , but we're going to . We're putting a lot of energy into it .
It's a huge undertaking . I mean completely understand that , that retail space on the digital side . The other question I had so your podcast Untrapped Entrepreneur right , is that what ? What is it called ? Yes . So how do folks get onto that ? How , where can they go find that ? Um , and you know what's your , what's kind of your strategy on that ?
I mean not necessarily strategy , but like how many episodes have you created , how many are you going to do ? I mean , what's your vision on that ?
Yeah , so you can go to untrappedcom um to find all the episodes and more about the podcast Untrappedcom .
You got a good domain .
I got , I got it , baby , I got it . You know this , uh , and it did . It didn't cost that much money , but it cost enough for it , cost enough for me to be forced to start a business out of it , Um .
So I am sure there's a lot of crossover on on the site or on on the podcast , um , but what I'm really focused on is there's so many podcasts out there that's like how did you do it ? What are the three keys to success ? How do you buy the Ferrari and it ? And those don't really interest me .
What I really want to know , because us , as entrepreneurs , we all talk behind the scenes and you know we're whispering to each other like I don't know what the fuck I'm doing to you , and it's like , no , I don't either .
Hey , that's going to be your opening social media clip , right there , did you just hear ?
the conversation , eric , can I we're having before we started ? Awesome , perfect .
So I'm I'm trying to get that out of entrepreneurs that haven't really shared it before because they've been too busy doing the podcast circuit telling everyone how great they are and um , and so the first season of the show , uh , we shot , I think , seven episodes that's rolling right now , um , and we got some really good contents and some great guests .
Season two and beyond is going to be themed out . So season two is about being married and , uh , an entrepreneur , and so the challenges , the traps that come along with that .
That's cool . Eric and I had an episode like that with our wives , yeah .
We should check that out . Yeah , you should check that out . The problem in the show is fun .
It really was .
It was really educational , though , mark and I , like we actually were nervous about that before we're actually saying , hey , mark , keep me on your bed . I mean is legitimately talk about the shit that we say behind the scenes . We don't want to have problems . Yeah , we go home .
It's like Mark , you need to watch , right before the weekend yeah , it's like don't ruin the weekend . Yeah , don't leave the weekend . But , no , that that is a big , big topic and I talk with my students about that too , with your , your maid or your partner or your spouse .
¶ Entrepreneurship and Spousal Challenges
You know you got to pick the right person , obviously , and you've got to have a lot of mutual understanding about what this really means , the commitment that you're making . And it's hard for people , you know .
I , my last wife , I'm on wife number three I always tell people , if you want to get business advice , I'm generally pretty good , but when it comes to like relationship advice , you need to question the source . But actually I've learned a lot from that .
But my second wife she she did not come from a family of entrepreneurs at all and so it was really really difficult for her to understand a lot of the risks and commitments and and all that we have to do . So anyway , that sounds like a great season . I'm really interested to listen to those yeah .
I'll start recording season two in November and should be out December , january , I think , january .
Sweet man , super cool , love it . Well , we need to keep connecting on that because I think that I mean , there's there's just so much content to talk through , right , and I think that it's going to be hopeful for listeners .
I mean , this point , we're all doing our shows , you know , to make sure that entrepreneurs know that they're not alone is one of the biggest things , right , and I think to that point about the spouses is like it's hard as an entrepreneur , Like we're pretty bullheaded .
You know , we've talked about that a little bit , right Almost to the point of narcissism almost , but but I mean , like we want , we want them to understand us , like what Mark was just talking about . But also , how do we understand our spouses ?
Because , yeah , you know , I mean like they , they're going through some stuff , as we're going through stuff , you know , and if you have a spouse that actually cares about you , they're watching you , yeah , and they'll like put everything you have into what you're going after and I mean that's affecting them you know I think the other thing is , too , is like you're
used to being the boss too .
Yeah , Then you come home and it's like I don't work for you . You know , I don't have that problem Now . I just abdicate . Whatever it is . It's like yes , of course , honey .
You know , well .
Well , I'll tell you one story that we're going to , so we're going to open up season two , episode one , with my wife and I talking and being interviewed , and one of the stories I'm going to share in that , and I'll share it here , is you know , one day my wife and I were working together in the business and she was reporting into me , which I know you're
probably thinking like okay , you idiot , like we could have told you not to do that . But you know , I leave the house and she calls me and I'm on the phone , driving away , and she is just complaining about everything . Her job sucks . I'm telling her it's not a job , you own the business .
And then I just I got tired of it , so I just turned around without hanging up on her , and so I'm just like uh-huh , okay , and I turn around , I go back in the front door and we're still on the phone and I walk over to her desk and I just put my palm on her laptop and close it and just said you're done , you're fired .
And she's like well , but I've got to get this and this done and I've got to call this person , I got to email this person . I'm like you are done , done , done , done . You're gone and that didn't work out too well . No , that's the worst mistake , I'll save the rest of the story for episode one .
Man . That's some of the worst mistakes I've ever heard an entrepreneur make my entire life , man .
You guys are still married though , right Ben ?
We've been together since we were 16 years old , still married , and she's , you know I think she's actually in hearing distance from us , so I'm probably going to get shit , for you know , talking about this , she's a great woman , yeah .
You can tell her . I said she's a saint and undoubtedly to put up with that .
But I can't wait to hear the story from her perspective . This is that I'm tuning in on that episode .
I am too , man . I am seriously going to be listening to this one . It sounds exciting . Well , it's great , and you know , the thing with these podcasts is there are a zillion of them and you do have to be different .
Yeah , you know I think we struggle with that , but you know , I guess our whole thing is we like having successful people on , like yourself , who are honest and will tell the truth and who've done it , and so that's really what we look for . I think , more than anything as far as guests go , is everybody's got their own success model .
You know , there's no one best way to do anything , but I think the more stories we have of people who have done it , they all have something to offer , and that hopefully helps our listeners figure out what they want to do and how they want to do it .
Yeah .
And I can tell you I learned a lot every time we have a guest , and definitely have on this one too , ben , I really appreciate your time , man .
I love your model , ben , and what you're doing and really appreciate it , and we appreciate you being on the show today .
Yeah , thank you guys for having me .
Absolutely so . One last thing what is the web address for the Gents Place ?
Okay , so go to the gentsplacecom and I'm going to give you the gentsstorecom , our new website that just launched this week , and then untrapcom if you want to follow the podcast .
That's fantastic . So those are both on the Gents Place . It is wwwthegentsplace , right .
You don't even have to put the Ws in . We paid extra for that man . You can just put the gentsplacecom .
Okay , the gentsplacecom All right . Well , listen , we appreciate you here today being here with us today . We could talk forever , but we're out of time now and we will end this show with . This has been another episode of Big Talk About .
Small Business . Thank you all Been blessed . Thanks , Ben . Thank you guys , Thanks Ben , See you man .
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