What Comes Next For Donald Trump

as Tuesday. A grand jury in Manhattan decided there was enough evidence to proceed with a case against him for directing hush money payments to a porn star during his twenty sixteen campaign. It's the first indictment against Trump, but not necessarily the last, and it might not even be the one that ultimately poses the greatest league peril for the former president. Listen, there are probes into Trump's possible incitement of the January six protesters. There's an investigation of

his handling of classified material found at Mara Lago. So really, however this plays out, there could be other indictments or legal setbacks coming ahead for the president. All of that will believe. So today we look beyond that case to assess the other ongoing criminal investigations and civil cases involving Trump. Bloomberg Legal correspondence Zoe Tillman and Eric Larson have been tracking them all where they stand, how serious they are,

and what to expect in the weeks and months ahead. Zoe, everyone is understandably talking about the Trump indictment, but there are many other investigations related to the former president that are still underway. Start by just telling us what is the next one that you're really looking at. I think

that's the million dollar question, because we don't know. And for the past few months it sort of felt like, you know, one week, all the attention was on the investigation in Georgia, where Trump is under investigation for you did he commit state crimes in connection with trying to undo President Bines win in the twenty twenty election, And then you know, the next week it moves over to Washington, where there is a Justice Department Special Counsel Jack Smith,

who is overseeing two separate investigations surrounding Trump. One also related to January sixth, and whether there were any federal crimes committed across the country by Trump and his supporters, and then also into whether Trump or anyone else committed crimes for mishandling classified information, all the documents that were found at his Marilago estate, and then the New York

case kind of leap frogged ahead of those. So you know, we don't know what's coming next, and it could be in a couple of weeks we get a federal indictment in one or both of the Jack Smith matter. It could be coming up in the spring. We get action out of Fulton County. Fulton County, of course, that's Georgia. You know, we get drips and drabs on those probes. There's a lot looming and arguably, you know, with higher stakes in terms of the types of crimes under investigation

and the amount of prison time they carry. So you know, we don't know what's coming next, and we don't know when something might be coming next, but we know there's a lot out there. It's interesting the point you make about these other cases potentially being more serious, because right now we have Trump and his allies really pushing back hard on the idea that this case is in nothing burger. You know, it's relates to payments to a porn start.

All sounds like a little bit tabloidy, right, But these other cases are so much more significant. I mean in Fulton County, potentially crimes related to trying to overturn the election there with his phone call pressuring state officials to find more votes. And then, of course, you know January sixth, an insurrection, and then all these hundreds of documents, many of them classified, some highly classified, carted off tomorrow lago.

You know, when these other cases, if they come, if he is charged, there's going to be so much more at stake for him, and it's going to be a lot harder to push back on some of these other potential crimes because a lot of them we witness events around them, happen right on TV in front of our eyes, and they've already been recent court cases related to them, you know, the fight over the search warrants in Florida and whatnot. So this is crazy as this feels now,

it's potentially going to get so much crazier. So let's take a moment now that you've spelled out the range of cases and start to just go through them, and maybe, Zoe, why don't we start with the Justice Department cases. The Justice Department activity entered a new phase late last year when the Attorney General Merik Garland brought in Jack Smith, who was a long time former Justice Department official and had then over to the Hague and the Netherlands to

lead war crimes prosecutions. He had brought Jack Smith back to the United States to oversee two different investigations that were already well underway. I'm here today to announce the appointment of a special Council in connection with two ongoing

criminal investigations that have received significant public attention. The first, as ascribed in court filings in the District of Columbia, is the investigation first was into whether Trump longly not only took classified material and other government records that he was not supposed to take from the White House when his term ended, but then held onto them even after the National Archives got in touch and said you're not

supposed to have those, we need those back. So there was an ongoing investigation sort of happening behind the scenes that broke out into the open when last summer the FBI agents went to Mara Lago with a search warrant, which was another unprecedented moment in the history of things happening around Donald Trump, and they executed that search warrant and they took away boxes of documents, thousands of documents,

hundreds of which have classified markings. So there was that investigation that Jack Smith was then put in charge of. And where does that case stand now. It's a bit of a black box at the moment. We know grand jury proceedings are secret, so there's only so much that we know about the timeline. We know that it's ongoing, we know that it's open, We know that they are

still putting witnesses before the grand jury. You know, we don't know what sort of timeline Smith has to then go to the Attorney General if they need to have a discussion about bringing charges, and what that would look like at which point, you know, if there is a recommendation going back to the grand jury to get an indictment. You know, Trump has denied that he did anything wrong when it came to the documents, and that this is

all sound and fury. That being said, the US government takes the mishandling of classified information extremely seriously, and there are a number of federal primes, misdemeanors, and felonies that they can charge someone for having classified information when they shouldn't,

even if it wasn't an espionage type situation. And then there's the obstruction component if they decide that there was a willful effort to get in the way of returning these documents, if you know, if they were misleading the Archives and the Justice Department. There's a range of felonies that carry a significant amount of potential prison time, although someone like Trump wouldn't normally face those upper limits even

if he were convicted down the road. So that alone is quite a lot of exposure for one person, let alone one of several potential indictments, and we should mention that Mark Carland, the Attorney General, also had to appoint a special counsel in the case of Joe Biden, who was found to also have documents in his garage, So an investigation is under way for that too, Eric, And that's just one of the Justice Department cases against Trump.

Can you talk about the other? The other investigation is looking into the events around January sixth and the overall efforts to overturn the election nationwide as a wide ranging effort. We all saw a lot of the efforts by his allies. We don't know exactly to what extents Trump personally would

be on the hook for any of this. Of course, he's been accused of inciting the insurrection and directing his supporters to bring court cases across the US, all of which scenario sort of failed, and of course the events on January sixth, But as far as how it might be pieced together into a potential criminal case, I don't think we have any clue, or at least I don't exactly how they're building that or even how much they're

emphasizing that investigation over others. We know also for January sixth that Jack Smith is still bringing people into the courthouse. They've still got outstanding subpoenas, some of those are still

being litigated. It doesn't have the feeling that it's imminent to the extent they feel like they really need to hear from Mike Penn's former White House aids you folks who are waiting in the queue to come into court and wants a judge or an appeals court finally resolves these challenges that Trump, I should add, has mostly lost,

I mean entirely lost at this point. And if Trump does get charged in relation to January sixth, the cases we've seen so far over January six with the members of the militia and the individuals who have challenged the charges. It hasn't really gone well for a lot of them, So you already get a sense that these juries are looking at these mountains of evidence and sort of drawing some pretty severe conclusions. But the big question is will

that be enough to charge Trump with something specifically? And that's not the only investigation into Ruary six that Trump is involved in, and you know, there's potential legal exposure for him that is moving along at already a faster pace than the criminal probe, which is a set of civil cases that have been filed that he's been litigating, brought by Democrats in Congress and police officers who were there at the Capitol that day and you know, in

the middle of the violence, seeking to hold him civilly liable for that, and judges have already said that he cannot claim absolute immunity against those, and he's fighting that in an appeals court right now, but the Justice Department has said that they are not going to back his

immunity claim on that. So you know, in terms of getting evidence out me open in a courtroom, those civil cases have the potential to put a lot more of that out on the table than the criminal cases, even depending on how long it takes before we see anything out of the criminal side. More with Zoe and Eric when we come back Eric. Before the break, Zoe mentioned the case in Georgia having to do with Trump's efforts

to overturn the twenty twenty election. Where does that case stand. Yes, So just to catch everyone up on what has happened in Fulton County so far. Fannie willis the district attorney in Fulton County where Atlanta is. She was elected in twenty twenty and started her job just right around the time of the insurrection. So a lot of people were looking at Georgia because it was such an important swing state.

It was one of the states where Trump and his allies tried really hard in court to overturn Joe Biden's victory. There an alleging voter fraud that did not occur. Eventually, some audio recording came out of Trump pressuring state officials, the governor, the Secretary of States Brad Raefensberger to find more votes. So there was a lot going on behind the scenes with Trump and his allies trying to flip Georgia to his side, and obviously that it didn't work. Out.

But once news of this effort got out, Fannie Willis opened an investigation. And what we know is that a special grand jury was convened that heard from dozens of witnesses over a period of several months. And the way the system works in Georgia is that this special grand jury made a recommendation about indictments. So we don't know what those recommendations were. But in February they issued their reports.

Part of it was made public, not very much of it, but sort of the intro and the conclusion, which indicated that they had recommended some indictments, but we don't know who. So now what we are expecting the DA to bring a case to a regular grand jury that we think potentially could convene in early May. We don't know exactly how long that's going to take, but we understand that

those regular grand juries last about two months. Clearly, the special grand jury that got a first glimpse at this evidence thought that what happened in Georgia with Trump and his allies someone violated some state laws. Yeah, and we had the pretty extraordinary moment of a member of that special grand jury going on television to talk about it, suggesting I would say, suggesting strongly that they had recommended charges and probably recommended charges against Donald Trump, although she

wouldn't say it. We rarely get that kind of insight into a grand jury, but this special grand jury was given leave to do that. They didn't have the power to vote to indict. So we don't know what Fannie Willis will do with whatever the grand jury wants her to do. And what is Trump said about this investigation? In this case, In addition to denying having done anything wrong, he said that his call with the state officials was

a perfect call, not his only perfect call. So he says he did nothing wrong, and he says that the case is politically motivated, a witch hunt like the others and Zoe. It's early days, as you say. And ultimately,

if charges are brought, what does Trump potentially face. I think the prevailing theory is that it would be some kind of racketeering case, grouping together not just Donald Trump, but other people that we've all become very familiar with, maybe Rudy Giuliani or John Eastman, you know, these lawyers on the right who were part of directing the efforts on the ground in these states to try and undo the election, trying to convince state legislators to stop the

certification from happening, and both of them say they two did nothing wrong. There are state actors and all of this too, you know, members of the state legislature in Georgia who might be implicated. It's state crimes. It's not a federal case, so it's different requirements, different players. You know, it's possible there other state crimes similar to what is under investigation on the federal side, but you obstructing generally

or fraud. Unlike in the New York case, where it was always very clear, I think what the focus was, it was much narrower. There's just a range of things that could be on the table in both the Justice Department and the Fulton County case, just Fulton County specific to Georgia and Justice Department nationwide. When we come back, what to watch for in the months ahead, Eric, there are also civil lawsuits ongoing right now. Can you tell

us about them? On April twenty fifth, Donald Trump is set to go on trial in a civil sexual assault case filed against him last year by Aging Carroll, a well known New York author of former l magazine advice columnists who alleges that Trump raped her in the nineteen nineties in a department store dressing room in Manhattan, and she filed the suit last year under a new New York law that lifted the statute of limitations on these

older assault claims temporarily for one year. So I believe her suit against Trump was actually the first one to be filed on the day that this law took effect. And now it's already set for trial. And it also includes a claim for defamation, claiming that one of his truth social posts on social media attacking her last October defamed her. So this whole case has been set to go for trial. Trump has said that he was going

to take the witness stand in his own defense. Aging Carroll was also set to testify, and also several other witnesses who say they can back up her story. Trump has repeatedly denied raping Eging Carroll and claims that her allegation against him was politically motivated. But we don't know exactly what's going to happen to this trial now with this indictment. So far, on neither side has asked to move the case. I know the judge has said he's

very determined to keep it going no matter what. So on top of that, in October, Trump is again set to go on trial, along with three of his kids and his company in a two hundred and fifty million dollar fraud lawsuit brought by the New York Attorney General,

Letitia James. That suit followed years of investigation claims that they all inflated the value of Trump's assets for years, specifically to get better terms on loans and insurance and things like that, and essentially reaped two hundred and fifty million dollars in improper games over that time. She wants to claw all that back, and she also wants to ban the Trumps from being directors of any New York based company, which could have significant consequences of course for them,

with the Trump Organization being based in Manhattan. Trump and his company and also his kids have denied wrongdoing, and right now they've lost their motions to dismiss the discovery, and the case is ongoing and it is set for trial in October and then also in New York. Separate from these cases that really dominated the headlines during his presidency and post presidency, there's other litigation that predates his

time in the White House. There's a case pending in New York brought by disgruntled investors who say that they put their money into this videophone technology because Trump had come on and the spokesperson for it saying, this is

a great investment. Trust me, I'm a great businessman. And these investors say that they were duped, that they weren't informed that he was being paid to come out and tout this investment opportunity, and that it was a really bad investment opportunity and they lost a lot of money. And that case has kind of been proceeding in the background, and I believe Eric you reported Trump sat for a deposition in that case in the fall, So that seems to be moving forward as well. And it's not related

to his political activities. It's not related to the insurrection, but it's more legal liability that he has to face at some point. We should say, the device Trump promoted was sold by a company called ac and the company is not a defendant in this case and has not

been accused of any wrongdoing. Yeah. The interesting thing about that case too, is that it really relates to his behavior as a businessman and not even to his normal Trump organization type business with real estate and everything like that, but his marketing and his persona. These plaintiffs, they're seeking a class action status, which is yet to be decided before the case goes to trial, depending on how many

plainists end up being part of this class. If indeed there is a class approved, it could end up being millions of dollars in damages here. Trump ends his three adult kids, Don Junior, Eric Trump, and Ivanka Trump are also defendants in that case and his company. They've all and i'd wrongdoing. It certainly should be a very interesting trial if it happens, So Zoe, how will all these various prosecutors, judges, lawyers decide the order they should go in?

Is there going to be a pile up where Donald Trump potentially could be appearing in courtroom after courtroom, month after month. I mean, the short answer to that is yes. You know, there is a certain amount of coordination that goes on among lawyers and judges and court personnel. Most people in this system have an interest in moving these along, and judges are not going to interfere with another judges

hearing trial date. That's incumbent on the lawyers to make sure that they communicate that kind of stuff to judges, But at the end of the day, you know, we would expect to see a lot of requests for delayed deadlines for filings and motions, hearings that might need to be rescheduled. As a defendant in a criminal case, that is likely going to take priority over everything else that's going on. There are certain rights, you know, important constitutional

rights that he now has as a criminal defendant. The judge is going to be very sensitive to that, especially given the circumstances, and if there are deadlines in that criminal case, those are likely going to take some precedence. I would expect, and I've talked to sources who said this over some of the civil matters. You know, he's running for president, which we haven't really talked about that much. Well,

let's talk about that too. We expect that Donald Trump is going to have to take time off of the campaign trail to testify in cases in the middle of the twenty twenty four campaign. It's possible. I think prosecutors, you know, are going to try to avoid that as much as they have an interest in not getting dragged down into a discussion about whether this is all politically motivated, which they will say it is not, but they don't want to be taking him off the campaign trail to

get into court. It's not going to be a good look, and you know, public relations wise, that's going to be a problem. It's going to get really difficult, I think, to get them all sorted. If there are multiple cases before the primaries pick up early in twenty twenty four. As the two of you are both covering all of these cases, what are the ones that you think pose

the biggest legal peril for the former president. I don't know exactly what the January sixth or election interference case could potentially look like, because it's just so broad and there's so many different potential cases that could be put together. So I kind of wonder if the classified records case doesn't sort of stand out as being potentially the most serious.

The court finalings that we have seen related to the Moralogo search also specify certain crimes that carry quite a lot of prison time, and again not saying that he would face anywhere near the maximum. It's not really how that works, but it is a lot more in both of those cases than what he seems to be likely to face in New York on the hush money charges. As we've seen, the New York case over the hush money would not disqualify him from running or serving as

president even if he were convicted. Do any of these other cases disqualify him from serving as president? A conviction on a lot of these crimes does not necessarily stop him from being president should he win that election. On the classified documents side, there are certain offenses that do disqualify someone from holding office, but there's some uncertainty about how that would apply to the presidency. But you know, he can run for office right now. If he's facing

ten thousand criminal charges, it doesn't matter. And let's be honest, this criminal case actually is really going to galvanize him in a lot of ways. And this is the perfect kind of backdrop almost for part of his campaign, which is largely based on this idea of Democrats attacking and trying to silence Republicans, trying to destroy the Make America

Great movement, that sort of thing. I think it's important to say at the end that regardless of what happens in any of this, every prosecutor, state or federal will tell you that the goal in bringing charges against someone

is not to serve some other political purpose. And at the end of the day, the DA's Office, the Justice Department, the Fulton County District Attorney's office, if they're presenting a case that they can't win in front of a jury, that's a huge problem for them, and they know that

going into this. So, you know, setting aside sort of the larger political conversation, you know, at the point that we get to an indictment, at least in theory, it's supposed to mean that law enforcement is convinced that a crime has been committed, and you know, they really can't just bring an indictment to make a statement and then walk away. They have to see this through. I think it's just important to remember that this is the beginning and not the end of this process. Zoe, Eric, thanks

so much for coming on the show. Thank you, thanks for having us, Thanks for listening to us here at the Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot Net. The supervising producer of the Big Take is Vicky Burgolina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. They produced

this episode with additional production support from Mobarrow. Raphael m Seely is our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.