Hyatt's West Kasova. We're taking a break this week for the holidays, so here's an episode you might have missed.
Why what you want?
Win or loss? We take it.
It's tough when you lose, of course, and you learn from it. But it's more than football. It's really family. Like I know people for three years now and these are my best friend and my sisters. They got my back and we do it because we're happy.
These players come from all walks of life. They are nurses, they are teachers, they are coaches. If you want to see women playing tackle football at their best and most athletic, this is where you would go.
What we here's the bag.
I'm West Kasova today on the Big Take. Bloom Business Week contributor Mary Palan asks us simple but not so simple question.
Why hasn't there been women's professional tackle football? Why isn't it professionalized? Why aren't they sponsored?
So?
Women's professional football has been around in the United States for a long time. The Women's Football Alliance was formed in two thousand and nine, and today it has about two thousand players across thirty two states. These are women playing full contact, full tackle football. Just so we're clear, not flag not rugby, not soccer. This is full tackle football.
And it's a professional league. But these players aren't doing this full time.
Correct, So there are divisions within the Women's Football Alliance for ranging from developing teams so it's brand new, you just started a team, to what they call the professional teams that are playing at a higher level of competition, usually with more experienced players, teams and coaches.
Unlike the NFL.
They do not have billions of dollars of marketing and sponsors behind them, so players often have to pay to cover field rental, gear, travel, hotels, the basics, and most folks are working full time jobs that are outside of football, so practices are at night and on weekends.
They really really have to hustle to.
Make it sustainable, which I think is also just a big testament to how much they obviously love the game.
And we'll be visiting a practice later in the show. But Mary, when it comes to paying for their own gear, I can't think of many sports that are more expensive to suit up for than football.
Yes, football is an extremely expensive sport to become involved, and anyone who's not a kid who's played football understands that as well. You've got the gear, you know, you need to have reps and officials. The other thing with football, and what originally kind of interested in me in this too, is physically it's extremely demanding. There's a lot of obviously head injuries, which is something I and others have written about pretty extensively.
And it's a rough sport, right. You can sprain an ankle really quickly.
Often you might need pain medication, so it's not just like, oh, you're.
Popping to the gym for an hour or two.
It's a very very physically demanding sport for men and for women, and it's very costly.
So how does it work as compared to men's professional football when it comes to how many teams and how many games and what's the season like?
So women's professional football starts where men's pretty much wraps up. You know, we had the Super Bowl earlier this year. This league is just getting started in late April, and they play throughout the spring and the summer, and it culminates in a championship that's played in Canton, Ohio at the Football Hall of Fame. In the summer, these teams are playing all over the country.
They travel extensively in order to do.
So, and you know, obviously it's kind of day and night from the NFL, right. You know, the NFL has a massive TV deal, It has huge stadiums with corporate seats and tons of money pumping in from all sides, which is very much the result of decades of work. The Women's Football Alliance they have to work really hard to kind of conjure up their local bases. You know, it's interesting when I talk to a lot of these teams,
the coaches and the players. A lot of smaller mid city teams are really well supported because there is not an NFL team, And unlike the WNBA, which has a partnership with the NBA, the WFA exists completely.
Separately from the NFL.
The NFL does not sponsor the Women's Football Alliance, they don't partner with them, They do not have any kind of relationship. So it's very different than what we see in terms of the development of women's professional basketball.
And so who does pay for it? Is it all through sponsorship and ticket sales? Where does the money come from?
So there isn't as much money and the structure is pretty different than the NFL. So the NFL, we're pretty familiar with you know, there's an owner or a small group of owners who owns each team if you follow the commander's sale, those are extremely lucrative deals. Usually a lot of these teams are structured as nonprofits, and what that allows the teams to do is do a lot more grassroots fundraising, so they could go to a local
business and say, hey, cut us a check. It's a tax right, and you're supporting the development of women's football. And the nonprofit model also kind of changes the culture of the teams a little bit.
One of the teams that I talked to, you.
Know, they have a program where they partner with girls who play on junior and boys' high school teams and they get to go to these games, and then the women who play WFA football go and support the girls at their games, especially if they hear that there's bullying
or anything else like that. So it's a very different culture, I would argue than the NFL, where you've got agents, you've got drafts, you've got multimillion dollar deals individual players are you know, negotiating the players here have very very different headwinds. The WFA is not shy about, you know, the financial disparities here. Which we see across men's and
women's sports. During this year Super Bowl, they did this campaign called give Us a Second, and it was kind of their cheeky way of pointing out that with a half minute ad that costs seven million dollars during the Super Bowl, a donation equivalent to what they paid for a single second, So about two hundred and thirty thousand dollars could sponsor entire season of women's pro football. That isn't just like a pay gap, that's like a pay stratosphere. That's a different, different world.
And of course it's because this league just doesn't have the kind of following that pro foot, probably most popular sport in America does, And if a lot of these teams are nonprofits, the players are paying for their own gear and travel, and the budgets are so small, how is it really a pro sport.
There's a long history of the debate around what is a professional athlete. I'm thinking of the Amateur Athletic Union AAU, and a lot of the fights that runners went up against the Olympic Committee and the nineteen seventies because they weren't being paid to race, which is crazy when you think about how many shoes Nike has sold on the feet of runners, right, So I think that they want it to be professionalized. It's like the whole mantra from a Field of dreams. If you build it, they will come.
Has been at the root of so many terrible stadium deals and arena deals. But here you see them applying at kind of that kind of thinking to a league. If you call it professional, if you increase the athleticism, if you have committed athletes, if you treat it seriously, then sponsors hopefully will as well, and fans will want to watch as well.
We say professional because we want to see.
The best of anybody competing and playing. And as it stands now, they have the whole world of women's professional football.
You know, it's them.
So I think the hope is that with time that it grows and develops, and that the players will get paid.
One of the things I think.
About a lot in sports is when you show up just because things are the way they are doesn't mean it's right or the way things are going to stay.
You know, if you look at a.
Sport like tennis, Serena Williams outsells most of, if not all, of the men when she was, you know, competing before her retirement. So we have a lot of these assumptions about revenue and women's sports that aren't necessarily true or dated. You know, our women's national team outpaces our men in TV ratings all the time. You know, during March Madness with women's basketball, you saw that when they were given decent, if not equal, slots, they did amazing in the ratings.
So I think that this is also kind of under that umbrella for me.
So when you were reporting, you spoke to a lot of the players, What did they tell you about what it's like to try to hold down a normal life on top of being a professional football player.
You know, it's interesting because I parallel a lot of the conversations about injuries in the sport. You know, we have this quote in the story, injuries are a part of life, and I think a lot of women feel that way, And I think it's always silly going back to assumptions. You know, you know, it's really hard pregnancy. So where do we get this idea that women can't do tough physical athletic things, Because last I checked, for a long long time, women's bodies were doing all sorts
of really impressive feats. And you know that said, I think most women have to juggle a ton of stuff all the time. They're so committed to this sport that they are willing to make the time in addition to caretaking duties which often fall to women, in addition to professional ambitions. And you know, there are even some people I talk to where their daughters play. Their son is playing football, so they wanted to get involved as well.
So it also can become kind of a family event, the same way that a lot of sports do too. But instead of maybe you know, the dad, it's the mom who's really kind of leading the charge on that.
Mary. We spoke to Asia Wisecarver. She's the assistant coach of player development with a Portland Fighting Shockwave, and here's what she had to say.
When we get visibility and accessibility in marketing and dollars invested, people show up, they want to play, they want to watch. And you can see that even like the WNBA, it's not the people this all of a sudden love women's basketball. So people can watch basketball now, but I don't think, you know, the interest is necessarily different.
And Mary, she's talking about people watching, do they pack the stands at these games. Who are the fans?
Sure?
So I'm based in Los Angeles and angel City, which is our national women's Soccer League team, is packing out Bank of California Stadium and it's second season. You would think they've been playing there for twenty years. I think it's a exactly what she's talking about. You know, it's interesting she's in Portland. So this story I reported on
the heels of something Portland. I wrote about this bar called the Sports Bra, which is the first bar in the country that only plays women's sports, and it's packed. It is a great neighborhood vibe. There was a line out the door and I was actually there for a Thorns game. The Portland Thorns, which is their soccer team, is really really well supported and kind of beloved in the community, and I think Portland is a great example of a.
Community that really sports.
Women's sports are trying to get a WMA team now, and exactly it goes back to kind of these bigger systemic issues in sports. Are women getting the same time slots, Are they getting the same marketing budgets? Are they getting the same adviys from sponsors? You know? Leading into these events? There are all these things that go around sports. And this is an anecdotal observation, but I think people want to watch great competition, men, women, old, young, however you
want to slice it. Sports are stories with an uncertain outcome. That's why we tune in to watch anything. And I think that that's part of why when you give an equal platform, there's drama, there's plot, you want to know who's going to win. It's like this primal thing that's wired into us. So I think that she's a great example of, like, you know, the shockwave is right in the heart of that. I think Portland exemplifies that definitely.
More with Mary in just a bit, but after the break, we head to the field to watch a women's pro football team in action, Ladies disciplin. We wanted to see what a women's pro football practice looks like. So our producers Michael Flarro and Mowbarrow went out to watch the DC Divas. They're a pro team that plays in suburban Virginia just outside Washington, DC.
Dava Jumper, we did what what what?
My name is Slice EPs Kinglee known as TIG. I am a middle linebacker. I'm been playing for it is my eleventh season playing professional tackle football my day job, I am actually in the military, even in the military Air Force for twenty two years. I've been playing sports all my life, So I started playing at I think seven years old and I was on my elementary school basketball team with all guys. I've been playing sports with all guys all my life. So when I found out
about the professional tackle team, I was ecstatic. It was a dream come true for me because you know, I'm finally able to actually play tackle football.
You clearly love it. What's the biggest draw for you? Like, what keeps you going coming out to these practices, going to games all year?
Oh man, hitting somebody, hitting somebody, and it's nothing they can do about it. They just gotta get up and keep moving. It's a stress reliever. You know, It's amazing.
It's a rush, really.
Is Felicia Donaldson.
I play offensive line, right and left guard, and for my day job, I'm.
A trained lawyer and immigration.
However, what I'm doing right now is in the process of starting my own nonprofit to focus on raising awareness and women in football. So today Faith Robinson and I
she's on the defense. We visited Eastern Senior High School we did a presentation for their girls flag football team, and our hope is that we continue building this relationship with them because there's a stereotype that comes along with female football players, and it's like to show like, no, actually, we're lawyers, we're chemists, some of us work for NASA.
We have engineers, we have teachers, we have law enforcement, we have The gamut runs wild in terms of all the different kinds of careers and pathways you have in addition to being mothers, but sisters, aunties, caretakers, and football players. So just giving them that opportunity to understand that you can go so far.
So it was just great. It felt like, these are my little sisters.
What's the end goal? What does it look like?
I want them to be able to get paid to play, Like literally, that's the end goal for me. Conversation to play full recognition from the NFL and for them to embrace the women's football team, not see us as competitors, but see us as equals.
In between the tackle drills, Michael and Moe also spoke to some of the divas coaches and front office staff.
Right.
Alicia Marphall.
They called me coach Ghost and I'm the head coach of the DC Divas.
I was a player.
I was played for the Devas for ten years. I was a captain, but I was also a leader on the team. At times if we didn't have a coach, I ran the practices for the offensive line. Captains have played a huge role in this team for twenty years, really the backbone of the support for.
The coaches in history.
Generally, our coaches have been men until past recent years. When we won national championship in twenty fifteen, Alison Fisher was the first Dave to become head coach, so it's a pretty monumental time for our team. That is one of my focuses is to grow women in the sport, especially our alumni. We are about six hundred strong alumni, and there's no reason why players should retire and not stay with the organization, whether it's marketing, COO. Because we
are a nonprofit. We have grown so much to where we have a chief Operating Officer, Director of Football ops and things of that nature. So we're just growing and it's natural that women grow with the sport.
What would you say is the difference and someone just walking up tonight like me saying what's the difference between women's tackle.
Football and men men tackle football. What answer would you give them?
The playbook that these ladies learn is a definitely at minimum a high level collegiate playbook and NFL playbook. A lot of the staff that I have, majority of them are all head coach caliber coaches or are our head coaches somewhere else. But these guys are our backbone. They truly whole hardly believe in what we're doing. The difference is the learning curve. Men have the liberty to not have to work. They can train all day long, they can go to football practice, train some days a week.
They have a nutrition as somebody cooking their meal, somebody driving this this big fat salary. These women out here they don't have that. They don't have that. All of them have come from a very very long workday. Majority of them are mothers and high ranking professions, you know. So it is a hard task to carrying. They're out here until sometimes eleven thirty twelve o'clock at night.
That's the difference.
I think we work a lot harder because it's not given to us. Man.
My name is Susannah Brown aka Susie Brown. I am one of the offensive line coaches, and I am an analyst. I think one of the things that is unique about women's sports period, and I think you saw it a lot during COVID, you know, with the bubble with the WNBA versus the NBA. We have a lot more kids around, and you know, because it's a lot more likely that you have women who are going to be the primary caretaker.
So like the fact that we have kids on the sideline, you know, during games, at practices and stuff like that. Like that's something that I think is unique to adult women's sports.
Has anyone ever been taken them back? When they're like, oh, you say you played tackle football, women's tackle football? What do you say in response? How does the conversation go?
Usually there are lots of follow up questions. They automatically want to see if I'm aggressive. That's usually some questions. I was at a music festival and there was a guy who's like, oh, can you hit? And I'm like, yeah, I could hit. I play that like I was. I think I just made the All Star team that year, and he is like, prove it. So like I literally got out of my and like he got down in a defensive line stance. And I drove her right back and he was like, okay, all right, let me try akad,
let me try again. He's like, I wasn't ready.
I wasn't ready.
But it's definitely you get people who are non believers until they see it, you know, sort of got to see it to believe it because they've never seen it before. I was a very aggressive basketball player and so finding football. The reason I play football and not basketball is the aggression. Like, the aggression is the reason and for like, you know, being able to hit somebody and like assert your dominance over somebody and just like it's it's a rush on like no other.
I'm Lois Cook.
I'm vice president and defensive back of the GC Divas.
My day job is to grow the game.
For someone who's never been to a women's Fallow game, what do you say to them? Like, what do you say, like why they should come out to watch a game?
First of all, it's a fun experience. We are a family friendly organization.
We have contests and giveaways. We have kids come down and do.
Dance offs, and you know they do a uniform race where they try to hurry up and put on the uniform. But what you get is you get women out here who are not only a lot of things during the day, but then they all come together at night to play football. And when you have that type of determination, you know, despite all the odds, the challenges with lack of resources.
As you see, we're practicing late at night. There's kids out here, you know, and sometimes you know, childcare is an issue, and so you know it's a hurdle, but we're out here still doing it. And when you have that type of determination and that type of perseverance, no matter the obstacle that women aren't still out here playing this game, you see that translate on the field. You see the passion, you see the intensity, and you see
the grid. It's interesting because women who play this game, they start playing typically they start playing at eighteen years or older. So we didn't grow with the game. We didn't have anything to funnel into this sport. So recruiting and just finding people who want to play is it's a big deal. We got to find them so and it's a lot of word of mouth, so a lot of the players have friends and family. We put a
you know, social media as a big thing. We have multiple tryouts so that people do have the opportunity maybe they didn't see the first one. We have three to four tryouts throughout the fall season so that we can get more people in here. Pre season will typically be, you know, with most of the teams January through March, where we'll.
Have three practices a week.
We'll also combine that with virtual practices, so maybe there's one to two days virtually and then three days on the field, and then when we get into the season, we have two days per week on the field with the game day being on a Saturday, and then we'll have film study and then we'll have unit meetings virtually as well, so we pretty much use up our whole week.
I personally have four sons. They're ages three through sixteen, and so it is a juggle, but you find a rhythm, you know, when you are passionate and when you want to do something and you have the love for this game, you find a way to make it work. And so whether you're having your kids out here with you or whether you are you know, doing the crock pod in the morning because you know you're going to be at price this at night, you find these little things to
just kind of support the game. We used to play on grass fields where we had to use our headlights.
From our cars.
And this is real talk, to shine light on the field just so that we can get that practice time in. We used to practice in a parking lot with no grass, just doing walkthroughs because we didn't have the resources. So we have come a long way, and it's so important to have the support of our community and those around us, those who support the men who play. You know, a lot of people say that they want to see women with these big, powerful hits, and just like the men do,
and guess what, we do it too. We have those hits. But if you want to see the women do better, you have to invest in us.
There you go, they're going, that's how you run.
When we come back. Mary Palan talks about what it'll take for the Divas and other women's pro football teams to make it big. Mary, when you look at men's professional football, so much of it now is about money, huge salaries, television deals, sponsorships. With women's pro football, it seems to still be mostly about love of the.
Game, definitely, and I think love of the game also drives the men's side. I think most people don't realize the average NFL career is about three years, and that's if you're lucky enough to make it to the NFL, which obviously the vast majority of D one players do not, and the vast majority of high school players do not make it to a Division one program. But with the women, that's not even on the table as a carrot, and
that changes the dynamics a lot. It isn't a D one scholarship sport, and there isn't some big paycheck and a flurry of agents that will represent you and get you millions of dollars for you to earn by a pretty young age. So I think that heart you really feel it when you watch and you see thecices, and just from a time management standpoint, I mean, it's really incredible.
Part of what the Women's Football Alliance also has to work on is when you go to the NFL, you've had years of basically being in a feeder system, you know, whether it's Pop Orner or your college. They often have to take players who are rugby players, soccer players, etc. And really educate them on the game, on plays, on the way you move your body being very different obviously with this kind of padding, you know, I talked to some rugby players who were like, we think it's crazy.
There is padding, you know in rugby, we just go out there, and some say even more dangerous.
I don't know. I haven't seen the data.
So there's an educational component that also has to happen on top of it, and I think to do something like that on top of work and family and all these other things really shows that folks really love it. And it's not surprising to me that the WFA has been this huge feeder system for female coaches and refs in the NFL. All the more surprising to me, honestly that the NFL doesn't back it, because it's been this incredible pipeline of talent for them, for women.
Who really know the game and really want to be immersed in it.
Let's talk about that physical aspect of the game, because a lot of these players are not in their young twenties. They have a whole range of ages of people who are showing up to play nationally.
Obviously, we're having a lot of conversations about head injuries and just overall safety in men's professional football and men's football at all levels, and a lot of the conversations I had with players about safety were very similar to those I've had with men playing the game. They love the game. It's also part of the exhilaration and the high of it. I think one of the things that shifted is kind of what do we know about the risks?
You know, ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, you had a professional league that was in many cases denying outright that football is dangerous. I think that's you know, shifted pretty dramatically, especially with the big settlements that have been paid out. You know, I grew up in a house my brother played football, my dad played football.
I grew up in Eugene, Oregon. Football as part of life.
And when I was.
Reporting this story, and what originally interested me in it was like, well, what are our assumptions about men, men and boys playing this sport that we know can be really harmful. So if we're saying it's okay for boys and men to do it, why are we not saying women are doing it? And I think we live in this interesting time with our assumptions about female athletes.
You know, mixed martial arts is a sport I've.
Written about, and Dana White, you know, has been the face of the UFC for a long time. I mean, he told me he didn't think people would want to watch women beat each other up. And then Ronda Rowsi and Holly Holms show up and all these other you know, amazing women, Ronda Rowsi being a professionally trained judo athlete like, and she.
Made more money than the men you know for a while there.
So I think that that's also something that's shifting as well. And also it reflects the huge fan base that the NFL has actively cultivated of women who've been fans of men's football.
The NFL's job is to grow the game of football.
They have pumped a ton of money into trying to cultivate female fans in the face of paying cheerleaders to seventy five an hour, in the face of horrible domestic violence cases, and I think they've been successful in a lot of ways. So it's this interesting tension to me between people wanting the money and the eyeballs of female fans. But when it comes to them getting on the field, there's still a stigma. There's still something unresolved there. And these players are just smack in.
The middle of it.
You know, they're out there playing and they don't care about any of that. They love the game and they love playing.
Asia Wiskarfer, she's the assistant coach in Portland who we heard from earlier, also talked about balancing that risk of injury in football.
The fear is if there's an injury, regardless of what it is, and I don't think it's football specific, it interferes with your entire life. If you're a mother, if you work on your feet, there's like lots of reasons why you would be considering that. But the opportunity to play, I think the ROI in that is so much higher that I don't think it's a pervasive concern that keeps people from playing. Not by the time they make it to the field.
Mary, I think that idea of the ROI, the return onun investment of the game and everything that they get out of it is worth that injury risk when they do the calculation.
Yes, I think the ROI of women in sports, you know, you can't underestimate that.
I mean, we live in a culture that's.
Constantly telling women, including professional athletes, you have to look a certain way. Often sports is shot by men and through a male gaze, whether it's your sleek ad or it's the broadcast you see on TV, and I think, you know, I can't even tell you how many women I've talked to across all sports, football and otherwise where it's part of the empowerment of I'm using my body as a tool, I'm using it as a machine.
Mary, You've talked about how the stands are full of fans, that people who are aware of the sport and watch it really love it. What is the ambition for this league? Do they set their sights on an NFL for women at the same level.
I think it's a little unclear kind of what the goal is. But I think you know, when you consider that they call themselves professional football, when you consider that they are going to have their championship game on ESPN two, you can read between the lines and see that you know they do want to be right up there, and that's not a crazy goal. Look at where the WNBA was when it started in the mid nineties and where it is today.
Look at women's soccer.
I grew up watching me a Ham and now there actually is a sustainable, viable league after many you know, starts and stops, and so I don't think that's a crazy idea that there could be a league that has its own fans, it has its own stars, that has its own contracts and things. So I see no reason why they can't follow in the footsteps of these other leagues that have, you know, since blossomed.
When you're talking about trying to build out this league and making it into really a more professional league, a lot of that has to do with sponsorship. Where's the money coming from right now, and where do they need to take it?
Like it or not.
Sports are business, even though we kind of talk about it with like a religious passion, and it's a multi billion dollar industry, and right now, the folks who write the checks for professional sports are by and.
Large white men.
That means that a lot of things like the women's ball lines can get ignored. And you need sponsors to grow the sport. You need it to pay players, you need it to pay coaches, you need it to procure venues, you need it to make sure that doctors are around, And there's a lot of room to grow there. Right now, players are doing basically their own fundraising at a very grassroots level. You know, when you start a sport, that's
often the case. It's hard to imagine, but you know, once upon a time the NFL was like a small niche thing. As well, nothing's huge out the gate, we like it or not. We live in a capital society and money determines a lot of how and when things grow. You know, at some point sponsors realize like, wow, women are fifty percent of the population and they might be interested in this. And millions of people, women and men watch football and are really interested in it, and so
often sponsors. It's interesting they're often late to the game when it comes to women's sports. The track record is not great in terms of sponsors and broadcasters, right, So there's a lot that still needs to happen.
And you know, who knows. I think that you.
Know, sports is really behind in terms of representation off the field of play, and that obviously impacts what happens on the field of play. So it'll be interesting to see as this generation of Women's Football Alliance players kind of moves on in their careers. We already know they're in the NFL and coaching capacity, so it'll be interesting to see kind of how these players and the alumni end up affecting the finances of this that they very
much have lived. When you watch the game, it makes you realize how many assumptions you have about football, and.
When you watch women playing it.
To be honest, I went to the Cali War practice and it was surreal to me because I have never seen people who look like me play tackle football. I can't even tell you how many hours of tackle football I watched over my lifetime, right, and it made me think, well, why haven't I seen this? You know, I read about sports for a living. I grew up in a football mecha.
I grew up in a football house. Like, why has it taken thirty some odd years for me to see something like this, especially when women have made such strides in combat sports. So I think it's a I think it's one of those stories. You know, when you're writing a piece for a magazine or newspaper, part of your brain is always like, how will this age?
And I hope that this is like a period piece.
I hope that I look back on this story and I'm like, oh my gosh, I remember when I wrote about women's football, when people had to pay when they were scrambling for sponsors, when they were scrambling, you know, and that happens in sports all the time you write about like the rookie and then they go on to win a US Open or a big title or whatever.
And so I very much felt like that when I was writing about this, that even though it's been around since two thousand and nine, it's like this timestamp piece of like, here's this snapshot of where this sport is in twenty twenty three.
Who knows where it's going to go.
Mary, Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me. This is fun.
Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And we'd love to hear from you emails, questions, or comments to at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Vergalina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers are Michael Falero and Moe Barrow. Filde Garcia is our engineer. Our original music was composed
by Leo Sidron. I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.