Revolt of The Dairy Farmers

starting to crack down. They're demanding farms dramatically cut the size of their herds to meet environmental goals that could force thousands of farmers out of business. One place where anchor over this issue is spilled over is the Netherlands, where political tensions are so it threatens to overturn the government. So if you end up in a situation that force will be necessary. It's quite possible that there will be a big crisis within the Dutch government that could even

Toplet to describe what's happening. Bloomberg reporter Diedrich Bazil joins me now from Amsterdam. Diedrich Bazil, thanks so much for being here. Hi s thanks for having we So you've been covering this conflict between dairy farmers in the Netherlands and the government. Can you just give us sort of a lay of the land of exactly what's happening there, If it's okay, I would like to start with asking you a question. Actually, sure, the Netherlands has about seventeen

million people. But I was wondering, do you know how many chickens we have in this country? How many chickens? You know your right away, I have no idea how many chickens there are in the Netherlands. Now we have one hundred million chickens in the Netherlands, and on top of that we have eleven million picks and another four million cows. And that makes Netlands the country and with the highest density of farm farm animals in the whole of Europe. And yet it creates all kinds of problems,

including the nitrogen crisis we're discussing today. One risk is the amount of nitrogen that is emitted. But another risk is what we've seen with Corona. When a lot of people and a lot of animals are together on the small piece of land, chances are that diseases are gonna jump from animals to humans. So we have this situation

where nitrogen other pollutants are building up. The government is trying to meet climate pledges and looking to dairy farmers and other farmers to help with that by ordering them to reduce the emissions. Yeah, so what happened is this has been an issue for a couple of years in the Netherlands, but back in June, the government's announced a target to reduce their nitrogen the emittance, and the target

was to reduce it by fifty in twenty thirty. When they gender this target, they also presented a map of the Netherlands and that map included the nature areas in the country, and we have we have several and surrounding those nature areas. Often the nitrogen had to be diminished by up to nine and that basically means that all farms that operate there have to close down. So that map and that target of cost a lot of commotion

in the country. And since we have seen strikes from for farmers for a couple of months now and they have been blocking the streets. They have been going to the house of the minister to protest. They're starting fires on the Highway, that kind of stuff. But you can see why farmers would be so alarmed by this because they're essentially saying, we're going to be putting a certain number of people out of business who may have been

farming for generations. Did they prepare farmers at all for this or was this something that was announced out of the blue. There are two sides to this story, like always think, One side is that these farmers, for years, and especially also the big companies behind those farmers, they have been polluting Dutch in nature and making money out

of it. And the other side of the story is that political parties that are still in power today in the Netherlands have told those farmers for years that if they scale up, if they become bigger, and if they investigate in innovation, everything will be okay and everything will be fine. And yeah, that's not the way it is. The problem is just way more structural politicians just haven't been brave enough to tell the honest story to the farmers, and now they don't have a choice anymore, and the

farmers feel betrayed. Can you describe some of the protests that happened over the summer, because some of them are quite large and pretty dramatic. Yes, so the thing is farmers they have tractors, so if you have a tractor, you can do a lot of things. They drove with the tractors to Parliament. They use them to block the highway, they use them to go to the house of the minister and straight away, when you have tractor, you basically

have a weapon. It's difficult for the police to do something about it when the road is blocked with tractors. And they have been doing this for the for the past months. Even the cost Minister of Agriculture to step down, and we are we have a new now new one since a couple of weeks. And we also have a Ministry of Nitrogen, the first one ever in the history of the Netherlands and I think the world to be honest, this is fascinating. A Minister of nitrogen. What does that

person do? Yes, so the Netherlands has I think it's the first country in the world to have a Minister of nitrogenial name is just Chris the Ball and yes, she basically is the Minister of bad news because her only task is to make sure that the target of fifty percent production by twenty thirty that's going to happen. And that's a terrible, terrible mission, I guess, because there's only bad news you can tell farmers because they have to close down their farms, they have to stop the

business they have been running for several generations. What is it that the farmers are demanding they see the government's solution has been pretty severe. What is that they're coming back with in demanding or asking for? So the challenge of the government is to live up to their tar good and at the same time provide a future for for farming in the Netherlands, and that is that is a big challenge because the only way to reach this

target is for farmers to close down. Not all, of course, but a big portion will have to quit their business. And these farmers are requesting basically either come with a decent way to buy us out with a lot of money, or give us other ways to continue our business what we have been doing for generations, and give us a roadmap what is allowed, what is possible. And that's also something that has been lacking up to this moment. It is unclear what farming is acceptable for the Netherlands within

the targets they want to reach. Basically, so they want they want clarity. If these farms are forced to shut down, if others have to cut their herds in half or more in order to meet the requirements and somehow still stay in business, where will the milk, the meat, the cheese, everything else that those farms are now producing come from. Because I guess the assumption is that the demand for those products isn't going to drop. They'll just have to

come from someplace else. What farmers have been saying is that we're feeding an eland, so what are you doing to us? That is true, but also not entirely true because I think about seventy of what is produced in the Netherlands is for export, and els is the second biggest export or in the world when it comes to agricultural product. If they will have to minimize their their output, then someone else in the world as an opportunity to to fill the gap. Basically, what would that mean for

the economy of the Netherlands to lose those exports? And that's actually a very interesting question because the strange thing is that we're the second biggest exporter of agriculture products in the world. But there's some important context there because if you look at how big part it is of the Dutch GDPs, only one point four percent. Like, it's not nothing, but it's also not very it's not also

not major. One element is important here is that those numbers of exporting products are inflated a little bit because of what we call the Rotterdam effect. In Rododama city and Atlands we have the port of Rododam, which is the biggest of Europe, and a lot of products that are produced in the heartlands of Europe are shipped to the rest of the world via Roddam and often the those products end up on the balance sheet of Dutch export By the end. It's it's not that big of

a deal for the Dutch economy. Will hurt, but I don't think that will be the biggest problem. One interesting thing about the Netherlands is how progressive a lot of the agriculture is. There's you know, enormous fields of greenhouses where lettuce, tomatoes, other things are grown, and yet we have on the other side this traditional agriculture which is very polluting. Is there conflict between those two different sort of visions of farming and agriculture in the country. This

is an argument of those same farms in thelands. They say like, look, we're the most enoughtive farmers in the world. Why if you're going to close down farms, while will you close on our farms? And I think if there is a future for the Dutch agriculture sector, it lies in the innovation. We have the Wagoning University which is at the forefront of research when it comes to agriculture. So I think the nets will still be able to make a lot of money with this innovation, but perhaps

they shouldn't produce everything themselves in their own country. So tensions are really high still between farmers and the government. How do you see this playing out? What is the solution? Obviously some politicians are going to want to be responsive to farmers who vote, and yet they have to balance that against the requirements of climate change. Where do you see this heading? In June, the target was presented of OFT reduction by twenty thirty and only last week the

government presented the buy out plan. What does that mean? It means that as a farmer you can say high government, please buy my farm in a way to reach the targets. And not all details are known at the moment, but what it seems to be is that they're going to offer one hundred and twenty percent of the current market value of their company or their lens. How are farmers responding to the bio plan. Are they signing up? Do you think that many of them will take this deal?

Mixed signals from the farmers. Some are very happy. There's also quite some farmers that already wanted to quit their business and not just waiting for a good offer basically. But you also have those big farms which are just making lots of money producing their products, and those are also the big polluters and if they continue their business they can make way more money than if they would sell it today. I think those are the essential farms are not not that keen to go along with the split.

The hopes of the government and the political party at the moment is that this is voluntary buio plan will do the trick, and if it doesn't, then you at some points have to get to a place where you're going to use force, and that is a bridge many political parties don't want to across at this moment. Dutch Prime Minister Margaret that did say that it could happen at some point that you need force when you say forest, you mean going in and actually shutting down the farms.

That would be a very extreme move. Yeah, that would be in a very extreme move. But if you if you listen to the specialist, it's it's quite likely because it's not the case that if half of the farmers will quit that you reach the tegus. It's also specific farms that are close to a very vulnerable nature reserves. Those farms have to close down and if those farms

decide not to, then force will be necessary. And the Dutch government currently consists out of four parties, it's a coalition government and at least one party is very much opposed using force because many of their voters are farmers. So if you end up in a situation that force will be necessary, it's quite possible that there will be a big crisis within the Dutch government that could even topple it. And who knows what will happen after that. It's a very sensitive topic and it will it will

stay difficult for question time. Dietrich Brazil, thanks so much for being here. Thanks West for having me. Was a pleasant occasion. It's not just the Netherlands where this political and economic battle over agriculture is playing out more on that when we return, the tensions we're seeing in the Netherlands are also playing out in other countries around the world. To talk about that, Agne Esca de Susa joins me from London. She is a food reporter and also known

affectionately as Bloomberg's foods are Aggie. Thanks for being here, Thank you for having us. When we talk about the biggest pollutants, it's often oil or coal, but as we just heard from Dietrich, the Netherlands is zeroing in on agricultural pollutants. In in your own reporting, you describe how other countries in Europe and around the world are also targeting agriculture. Why is this happening now? Farming and agriculture is still relatively little understood driver of climate change. Is

more effort and more understanding. I think the public opinion is changing when it comes to impact of farming on the environment. It's actually pretty big. Agriculture itself accounts for a quarter of global greenhouse gas emissions. Growing your food, but then also transporting the food all the way to retailers, that actually accounts for about a third of global greenhouse

gas emissions. So it's actually substantial and and just looking at livestock, livestock is a major driver other missions of the land, usage of water, consumption of so many different aspects and cleaning up agriculture cannot happen without tackling the environmental footprint of livestock. And what exactly is it about live style that is so polluting. The environmental footprint of

life stock is so multidimensional. First and foremost, I think the most important thing when it comes to livestock is the fact that livestock emit methane. It's a really powerful gas, and live stock is actually a major source of methane emissions. This happens through a so called enteric fermentation. Is basically means that the digestive system of cattle of sheep causes microbes inside stomachs of of of an animals to actually

release methane. They're gassy, they're gassy animals. They're gassy, they're gases, so they're burp out, they burp out methane. Their manure, their urine pollutes soil. You know, it's a source of nitrogen oxide. That's another polluting factor. And on top of it, they eat a lot of crop, so you need to actually use so much more land in order to grow a crop for them. The man management is not there yet.

More needs to be done in order to figure out the way to start the manure but actually converted into biomass, converted into energy. I wanted to ask you now about the political pressure that is building in a lot of countries, especially in Europe, when it comes to governments trying to cut their greenhouse gas emissions and are now looking at

farmers to do that. What is happening is that after many, many, many years of seeing a lot of focus on fossil fuels, it seems like there is more attention right now on farming in general. What we're seeing is that more governments around the world are introducing our furthering policies that are focused on agriculture and actually making agriculture most sustain the all and trying to address emissions from livestock. Certainly more should be done, but there are signs that they are

moving in that direction. We've had so far, I think at least one hundred fifty countries signing up to the Methane Pledge. The Methane Pledge was the major push at Glasgow at COP twenty six, there was last year's cap conference. Since then, so many more countries have joined that pledge. So at least one hundred fifty countries have pledged to cut methane emissions by thirty pc by the end of

the decade. This is a very general pledge, so it includes all sorts of sectors, and particularly there's been a focus on oil and gas. There is an understanding that in some countries agriculture will need to be tackled. There are some countries where livestock commissions and agriculture emissions account for a large share of the total country footprint. So for example, take New Zealand. Half of New zealand carbon emissions come from agriculture. That is a very big chunk

of emissions. So what's going to happen is that countries will have to determine how they're gonna cut their methane emissions. So if if the countries that were agriculture is a huge part of the problem, they will need to tackle it. And we're all already seeing some of those big producers trying to and introducing targets for farming. How have they responded to these restrictions that the government is trying to impose. So it depends on the country, but generally farmers are nervous.

In some instances they feel they are being singled out unfairly. Sometimes they can feel confused as to actually what's going to happen. I think in several countries, like for example, in New Zealand in the Netherlands, when it comes to actually nitrogen emissions and nitrogen reduction, land farmers know and have been it's quite clear that farmers will need to reduce their herd size, and they feel that that will lead to the loss of business, the loss of profitability.

They will have to change the way they've been doing things, and they feel the changes coming. But it's also you know that they're producing food. You have to put yourself in the shoes of those farmers. They've been farmers their entire lifetime. Maybe they grew up in a farming family. You know, they've been farming for generations. Suddenly they need to change this. Suddenly a government policy, a government measure tells them, well, it's time. You know, you're gonna have

to cull back on your herds. You might actually have to shut down your business, go and move to the city and do something else. In a way, it feels like they're gonna have to be approoted, and it's it's a huge confusion as well as to huge uncertainty, huge confusion, feeling of the lack of appreciation of for what they do. They essentially feel under siege, under siege from a government, understiege from vegans suddenly telling everyone it less meat. It's

a lot to take on. At the same time, you know, they're told to cut back on pesticides, cut back on fertilizers. You're gonna have to be taxed more. So suddenly there's just a lot to take on. The world is changing. At the same time, they're being affected by the consequence by the climate change itself. We've had years of drought, we've had extreme weather and that's affecting their crops. It is affecting their livestock, and so they're in a way,

they're pummeled. They're you know, being struck from both sides. And they've been protesting, some of them. Is that right, I mean kind of very dramatic protests to show politicians how they're feeling. Yes, and two fields. Has been a year of protests farm process, at least in Europe. What is quite unique about two is first and foremost, what we so earlier this year is the fact that the energy and fertilizer costs are on the rise. That squeezing

farmer margins. At the same time, they don't feel they're being paid enough for the food they produce. And then it's the climate policies that are coming as governments introduce them. It feels like climb policies are becoming one more sticking topic factor when it comes to the farmer discontent. It's a relatively new thing and we expect to see more of it. We see a lot of politicians sort of jumping on this bandwagon against green policies in order to

curry favor with farmers. There are millions of farmers out there and very often they are a strong electorate that politicians have to count with them. They need to respond to their needs because they know they may lose votes. They also have in several countries they lobbying is strong. In a way, you could argue that that may be something that could put breaks on the introduction of climate policies on time and at scale, and it feels like

governments are really weighing it carefully. The sentiment of farmers are feeling actually has been to an extent culptured by right wing groups by a movement opposing vaccinations and COVID restrictions. We even so former US President Donald Trump speaking out on the issue of farmers and on the protests, and he did say that farmers in the Netherlands, of all places, are courageously opposing the climate tyranny of the Dutch government.

And as we speak, farmers in the Netherlands, of all places, are courageously opposing the climate tyranny of the Dutch government. Can you believe this? We do see this argument being furthered by conspiracy theory by extreme right as well, that climate policies will lead to a redaction of food supplies, that it may actually cause shortages, if not famine. You know, you see farmers repeating that argument as well. It does

appeal to primordial fears in a way. I mean, we're all concerned about food and people are struggling with food inflation, with the cost of living crisis. To actually see that, wow, you know, my food bill is going to go up even more if my government actually introduces climate policy and we're going to produce less food and the prices are going to go up. I mean that really appeals to people's fears. We need to pay attention to the populist argument.

It's such an easy argument to make. You know, there's that hashtag. There are social media hashtags out there. No farmers, no food farmers are using that hashtag, but anti vaxers are using that hashtag and we're seeing it. You know, from what I read as well, in terms of their claims, they're very, very simplistic, and they're just very it's so much more complicated than that, but it's it's very catchy when we come back, what do you, if anything can

be done to fix this mess? You've spelled out how big a problem this is, and we've heard the very dramatic example from the Netherlands of how deeply people feel about this, and so I guess all that raises the question of what can be done about this? What is the solution here? Tackling pollution from agriculture and making agriculture, farming, and the food systems more sustainable is a multidimensional problem.

When it comes to nitrogen, better manure management, trying to find ways of converting converting manure into our st of energy when we look at meta and emissions, there are new solutions coming up. For example, feed supplements that are supposed to reduce the work of microbes responsible for the submission, in other words, make them less gassy. Yes, make them less gassy. However, these solutions are still at early stages and there's no silver bullet for cutting those emissions altogether.

It has to be a holistic approach from an economic perspective. If these regulations going to affect and dairy farmers have to cut the size of their herds, that in itself will reduce emissions. I guess what then happens is dairy products of all kinds, the prices rise, and that decreases demand. Because really, aren't we looking at a problem that people

want this? People want milk, they want cheese, they want meat, and as long as there's a demand for it, people are going to want to produce it, and then it becomes just a matter of how much does it cost. Currently, we still produce more food than we consume. What needs to change is actually distribution of food, the fact that we waste so much food. About a third of food produced around the world is being wasted or lost at the harvest level, So this is beyond livestock but I

think it's a very important point. If we were to, in theory, reduce food waste, we would end up getting more food. So I think, you know, we could speculate on what it will do to prices, but none of those climate policies need to be kind of taken in isolation. There's a variety of solutions. There's a variety of policies that can be implemented, so reducing food waste would be one of them. Coming up with alternative proteins, yes, we do need to acknowledge, and your absolutely right, people want

to eat that stuff. People like cheese. They love cheese, you know, and and they like their steak. So yes, there should be a push towards healthier, more sustainable diets, encouraging people to cut back on meat, especially in the developed world. But at the same time we need to come up with solutions, come up with new alternative sources

of protein, and those are being developed right now. Precision fermentation is really capturing attention, so producing cow free milk or cheese or protein, and all these things are kind of new and in development, and there's a long process to get people to accept them over time, and until then you have a lot of these farmers who are pretty angry. I suppose it's not that different from other

industries that change over time. The question is how do you engage farmers, how do you actually bring them on board in order to support that transition in agriculture. New industries and new food sources will require will still require agriculture, will still require farmers to actually produce for them. I think the role of governments is to policemakers is to figure out the ways of bringing farmers on on board so that they become part of those solutions as well.

So the process when it comes to climate policies supporting new sources of food needs to be inclusive of farmers. This is something that climate policy makers need to be thinking about. One place we haven't talked about is one of the world's biggest agriculture biggest live stock market, which is the US. Also one of the biggest emitters of agricultural pollutants, and yet we haven't seen these kinds of

protests in the US. Yes, it's it's it's quite interesting what is happening in the US that have been voices out of the US look into Dutch farmers as an example of why governments shouldn't get involved. But at the same time, when we look at the US climate policies as well and what they want to do with livestock, that we haven't really seen much action, that the US isn't really cracking down on farmers in a way that

these other countries are. Yeah, that's right. So we haven't seen a push to reduce, for example, demand for meat. We haven't seen a push to slash emissions from life stock the same way as we see in other producing powerhouses. But at the same time, we do have some positive examples of where farmers can get involved, and one such example is actually regenerative agriculture. It's where the US arguably

is leading the way. And what is that. What is regenerative agriculture, So it's basically involving farmers in carbon trading. Farmers can earn carbon credits essentially, so they can actually earn money for their sustainable practices, so there's incentives for farmers to do things better. So they're incentive financial incentives

for farmers to do things better. And that still a nascent market, but we are seeing more and more companies trying to support those practices as well and support the farmers who supplied to them, and we're seeing more farmers actually getting involved. It's an example of farmers actually being on board the sustainability ship. Agni Esca de Susa thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you very much

for having me. You can read more of Agnesca de Susas and Detrich bass Seals reporting at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's the daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more shows from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Read today's story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com slash Big Take, and we'd love to hear from you. Email us with questions or comments to Big

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