If Pretty Privilege Exists, Is it Wrong To Use it? With Elouise Eftos

Babe, in a patriarchal society, you're telling me if you don't want us to to privilege off our looks or whatever, it's it's almost like but you set up this society to be in this way. Hi, I'm Sarah, and this is Small Talk. It's not quite a news headline, but it is what the girls are talking about. And today I am here with Eloise F-Tos. Welcome! Hello, my love. How are you? Isn't this beautiful? I think so vibe sexual. Sexy. This is a sexy podcast to be honest. I'm so

Flattered. Oh my god, I'm so excited to have you here. I haven't seen you in ages. I've seen you ages. It's sick but it's so nice to see. And on the on these gorgeous On the these are Abby's. Oh babe I love. So we're going, Thanks Abby. We love Abby. Um So if you haven't heard of Eloise, she is Australia's first attractive comedian according to your Instagram bio and the name of your show. And you you have been going

Strength to strength. Like even when I was just looking You like the times, time out. Five stars. He won director's choice at Sydney Comedy Festival. Best newcomer at Edinburgh French. That is Babe. That is I can't bel I think I'm still processing that. Like to get nominated for that is

insane'cause there's only five out of like four thousand something shows. And to be like the first I didn't know this at the time, but to be the first Australian woman nominated, I went, okay. And with that show of all shows is quite Yeah, a thing. Even for listeners, do you mind explaining like Edinburgh as well a little bit? So Edinburgh Fringe is like it's probably the I'd say it's the biggest arts festival in in the world. So it

Started like I mean, many, many years ago. But basically when you go, you perform, especially if you're it's your first time, they encourage you to perform. every night for a month, except you have one night off. So which is sick, which is mentally and physically ridiculous. Like it's it's Quite physically and mentally exhausting. And I did go in into it. I never thought I would do it. It's like a financial um loss basically, because it costs so much.

fucking money. And welcome to media and welcome to the arts, right? You should be and you should be you should be happy that you were even chosen to even be able to register and pay thousands of

pounds to me there. Isn't that fine when you talk to friends from other industries and you're like, and I'm gonna pay negotiate this or do that and they're like, Why are you making such a big deal out of this? Like that's like the least you can do and you go, No, because it's drilled into you when you work in media or the arts.

that you are just like lucky. You should be lucky. You should you should be honored. Like it's actually like crazy. And I feel it especially with any well, anything. I think most of the things that I do have all s well, they are all surrounded by the arts or media. And I find it really funny with um Especially when it came to like dancing, which is why I made like a video years ago about the AFL not paying the dancers, the grand final dancers and

For me, the response to that was so visceral from the arts community because it is such a thing. It's like, Oh, we're the biggest one of the biggest corporations in Australia and we're not gonna pay you so Yeah, you should just be la happy that you're performing at the grand final like what? Like it's just it's insane. It it was it

crazy that we get told that that's what we should, you know, be like privileged to do. Like I find you are. You are like thank you so much. And that's what's sick as well. It's drink it's it's like drilled into us and then we actually are like we're so conditioned.

And the thing is for me with Edinburgh it was really funny because people You're gonna have the worst time. It's so fucked up and you're gonna c wanna quit comedy, there'll be nights where you're gonna wanna be, you know, wish you were dead. Sorry. But my understanding that but that's how it feels. It's like people prepare you for failure. And I think the only thing that I heard about Edinburgh

was that you'll go into debt. Like that's all I heard. You'll go into debt. It's amazing. It's the best thing you'll ever do, but you'll go into debt and nothing will will come of it, but it's like a privilege to do it, right? And then when I did it, it's almost like my persona on stage. It was almost like El Woods. I was like, Oh, like it's hard. Like it was so I feel like mean saying that, but it was crazy how

I think I'm doing my comedy as something different, but I think for the UK they're a little bit more comedy savvy. My show is quite multimedia. Um, you know, it's a very multi hyphenate, you know, of what I do in the show and it's saying something, it has a message and the response was crazy. I I stayed very like this. I stayed very blinkers on and just tried to stay focused. But things just

w started to snowball and it was like I was selling out shows and people like, That's crazy. Like people don't sell out shows in their first year this easily and And but I was in shock. I sort of was just like, Oh wow, I'm so grateful and I would almost like cry every night because I would just be so like, I can't believe this is happening. And then um the nominations came out, I remember just like almost

just like burst into tears because I just s I think also for it to happen in on a world scale, especially in Australia, I I think you know, I think I was speaking to you about this view when we first met is just the way that people respond to my high status comedy was so Quite negative. And it was quite funny because being a woman, doing high status, especially with tall poppy syndrome in Australia, but I also don't want to

I don't wanna sort of um shit on that too much because that's why I wrote the show. And it's given me all these incredible you know, opportunities and it's it's a message that I think I'm really proud of and I yeah, it's it's just it's from there, from that Edinburgh nomination, so many things happened from that moment. So it changed my life. Well you're also you just

The Soho House? Yeah, then did Soho um theatre in London um for a week, which was amazing, and then did I'm about to do Soho Playhouse in New York in March, which is crazy. Thanks so much.

But that's all from Edinburgh. Do you know what I mean? Like that's all from Edinburgh. And I think that's a part I mean, I made eleven quid. Like I made eleven pounds. Do you know what I mean? Like I didn't go into debt, but I made eleven pounds. Like that is just part of unfortunately what the arts is like, but it's also amazing how many

auditions and and meetings and and opportunities I got after that in lunch. It was just crazy. It was amazing. What I love about this as well when you were talking about like that

persona you have on stage as Australia's first attractive comedian. Yes. Like it is tongue in cheek, but I but you really do kind of manifest Babe. That persona. Isn't it so crazy? And this is kind of what my next show's about. It's almost like about the consequences of playing the persona. But at the same time, it's like part two. I see this as a trilogy. But especially

with the way that the negative response or the positive response, I think for me, manifesting and believing that you can do something is very fake it till you make it. And I think there's a part of me that I always wanted to feel empowered and powerful and love what I'm doing. And it's almost like the more that you believe it, it will happen and it's happening. I'm I'd I made a show that I wanted to perform and talk about the things I wanted to talk about.

and my sense of humor and it's like you either come along for the ride or like see you later. You know what I mean? And it kind of feels like the more you believe in yourself and and the persona for me is a very heightened version of me, but it's helped me I guess, manifest this. It's helped me feel empowered. And I get messages from especially women that see the show.

about how it uh makes them feel empowered or or you know, it's which is amazing. I couldn't think of a like a more suited big small talk guest because like Tongue in cheek. hot bitch persona, but then it's very layered in like the messages you're trying to to convey in that. And And I think also you're smart enough to get that. I think some people are a bit like they only see the And that's also part of the That's part of that bit that people see that headline and go

Absolutely. Why does she think that about her? Yeah, who the hell does she think she is? And it's almost like, Why are you worried that I think that? You know what I mean? It's sort of but I I g I guess it's like a bigger uh, you know, topic or like a a bigger um issue that we have as a society, especially when it comes to women. owning who they are or believing that they are believing, let alone like being smart and attractive and

and um funny, but then also going on stage and going, I actually know that I am in any workplace. You don't have to be a comedian to

to feel backlash because you do that. This is this is a universal, you know. It it's this is the perfect segue and I can't I cannot wait to get into all of this with you. But essentially I have been sitting on this idea for a small talk episode that I've wanted to tackle. What I know is a big conversation online and I know it can go in so many different directions, but the concept of pretty privilege. Love this.

And yeah, it's just something something light and easy for me. I was worried it was gonna be like euthanasia. I was going, Oh, baby, I I don't know if I can Help you with that one. But no, pretty privilege. I think it's really important to talk about it. Fascinating. And and and for those who don't know, pretty privilege is the belief that pretty people benefit

in life from being perceived as beautiful and fr and you know, that's from like being treated better at work to like having a drink purchase for you at a bar. I I think what I find interesting about it is people feel very passionate about embracing it. Or hating, hating the concept of it. Yes. And and I think both are valid, but I think like the first thing I wanna say is like just acknowledging

the existence of pretty fripplage. It's almost like Nepo babies when they don't acknowledge that they're Nepo bab but they don't acknowledge that they are. It's almost a bit like sorry. Like it's like that's why everyone hates you. You know what I mean? Like and also

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You might not think that I'm attractive. That's the point of my show. It's like sort of like it doesn't really matter what you think. It's like you're going to perceive me how you want to perceive me. My whole thing is that pretty privilege does exist. There is no There's no denying that it doesn't exist in some capacity. But I find it really funny when

For example, oh my god, I've forgotten her name. Uh the the that girl on Brig Big Brother, Holly, or did I just make that up? You know what? I'll fact check this. I fact check this story. I that sounds so mean. It sounds like I'm being a being a bitch, but I genuinely just c I've just blocked. her name. I've just literally blanked. That conversation was really interesting to me. Uh and I said it on another podcast that I I find it that she's lying if she doesn't if she doesn't s think that

you know, pretty privilege doesn't exist. It's like well, you know that it exists. And I think there's there's definitely pros and cons to being conventionally attractive, but I also think that That is more of a a bigger, broader topic of uh being a woman in this society that has been made for us to fail in some way or

to have to pander to men or you know what I mean? Like there's only there's definitely pros and cons to it, but you can't explain it doesn't exist. No, and I think like the the start of this is just kind of Acknowledging that. And yes, it's in the eye of beholder, but I think when we're talking about the research about pretty privilege and the science.

Yes. Like there is research around this. I'm going I love that. Let's e re less research on endometriosis. More on this, I think. That sounds so bad. No, I like it. I like it. I'm going, that's but no, it's funny, isn't it? It is funny. And I think when we're looking at this. you know, the studies on it. They're speaking more directly to the ideals that society has entrenched on like that bar of of what is pretty privilege. But I do think as well, like

F you know, we're mostly a female audience here. Like if you have had a drink hey girls. If you've had a drink purchase for you at a bar or like you've cut to the front of the line or you've had like had a car trouble and someone's helped you. There are elements of ways that we've all benefited from absolute privilege as well. Not that many Australian men are buying.

our strengths. Like I'm not really sure we're getting that plus. That's another podcast episode. Are you joking? I'm going the lack of effort is one that's another thing. Yeah, I'm not sure actually if we're going to benefit. The benefits of I go pretty privileged what benefits? I go to America, you'll see some benefits. Yeah, no, it's not. You'll see some negatives of other things there. But you know what I mean? Like you'll see some like benefits of actually like People buying you a drink.

Or asking you for your number. Do you know what I mean? Like Australian men it's like the less effort the better. I'm going please. It's the worst It's it's actually like exhausting. It's lazy. It's so lazy. And that's why like And look, this is a very nuanced conversation. We're gonna go a thousand different evidence with it. But I mean, my first thing when I think about it is like, you know what? I love pretty privilege when it means

Friends get to walk into a club and, you know, the guy that we were with has to play twenty one questions with the bouncer and then get turned away. And you're like, you know what, play on. Babe, in a patriarchal society, you're telling me that like what, these men are going How dare it's like a little bit, you made this, you made it like this. Do you know what I mean? You you made it like this. It's like if if you

don't want us to to privilege off our looks or whatever. No. So it's almost a bit like if I'm if I can benefit from it, damn right I will. Do you know what I mean? Right. And also it's not even just

Girls benefiting. Like there are times that a guy has not replied, treated you like shit. Yes. And you give him fifty seven lives because he's hot. Don't get me started off paid. Even when they're not hot. Sorry. We have been conditioned we have been conditioned as women to be the kindest. Do you know what I mean? Like this is a lot of like that's getting into more like my news shows a bit more about this and how we've literally been conditioned to to cater to men in this sense of like because

We need their validation. Well, we did, um, to I guess have security, have safety in our lives, to be able to h buy houses and have a life. That that that's why we're conditioned to you know, give these guys a chance or be extra kind. The these guys treat us like shit and it's almost like a bit oh, like they'll still we will still give them, you know, hundred and fifty chances because

We've been conditioned to think that it is our duty to cater and be kind and nurture these men. It's like and that's why it's quite funny that now all of a sudden we're like, actually I'm okay. Like, um, what about my lineage? What's your lineage? What only what an Xbox and some like Turkish hairplugs? I'm like, I'm fine. You know what? That's actually funny because like we talk about Pretty privileged.

for girls, but think of like the the hard yards we're putting in. What we're buying for makeup, buying for outfits. what we do to ourselves, like contort ourselves. Totally. Also, we could also not g we could and we could do the opposite and we could g not give in and not wear makeup and everything, but at the same time

Again, it's a we're a we're a product of the world that we're living in. At the same time it's like if we don't do that, we also are criticized. If we do, we're criticized. We can't win. There's no win. Whereas, you know, we're doing all of these mental gymnastics and these guys that are

Then that's a good idea. It's giving mediocre. And we're all trying to like, no, no, no, let me find a better photo of him. Babe, don't get me started on that. The amount of times where I'm like, I know that women date down because the amount of times that you have a girl going Oh let me get a better photo up of Oh sorry, this isn't the best photo. He hasn't posted in a couple of years. Sorry, um oh this is a bit um he's the one on the left like it's just

I think now as a society we're we're changing the way that we view their value. And also for us, I feel like there is a unfortunate thing of yes, we can I don't know, benefit off pretty privilege and we can um But it also sorry, but even that. It takes effort to even be perceived as this as this privilege has been, you know, unless you are born a supermodel sounds. The privilege has been working out.

YouTube tutorials and outfits and joking. It's like there's always something and then it would be Then also like I do, you know, see the point of like, you know, uh there are the negatives to being pretty and that people will treat you horribly because of it. And look and I will get to that as well. Yeah, because I feel like that is the the back and forth. But it was interesting

If I if I go back to the science of it all. If I go to the science of it all. Science is real. So'cause when we're talking about like that that like stereotypical beauty that we think of. Yes, the conventional the conventional so science says one of the reasons that people are viewed as more attractive is because they have a symmetrical face. Like it's all about the symmetry.

So That's so interesting. Right. So as a society we grew up with this like subconscious preference for people with symmetrical faces. What the? Or to try and like balance our features out with makeup and like to get closer to symmetrical whatever it is. And it's like all on ratios and like proportion.

the appropriate distance apart, which is like just under half the size of the face from pupil to pupil. Oh. And the distance between their eyes and their mouth is like a third of the size of their face, etc. etc. It just goes on and on and on. Wow. And you're like, okay, so there's like that. Right?

So like that is like the way our our brains are programmed in a way. And then on top of that, we have what is presented to us in media and like entrenched. Yes. In you know, what we've been talking about. And if you grow up in a country like Australia All media, obviously.

not the best representation. Babe, sorry, we grew up in the nineties. I thought babe I you couldn't get arrested if you were brunette. Babe, being brunette in the nineties, also also like I'm a wog girl. Like being Greek Macedonian growing up, like I thought I was disgust I never thought I was attractive. Which is so isn't so funny.

Part of this because like if you grew up in whatever like pretty much all of us it's like thin, white, able bodied. And isn't it so funny? You can see it now, this whole proportion thing is very interesting because I do think we're gonna get to a time where the people that haven't had work done, which I don't judge people if they've had work done, I don't

That's I I'm almost going, Hey, but if you if you wanna do it, go for it. But it's interesting how I think people that don't get worked on or don't alter their features. will then be seen as individual over time because Everybody's trying to look the same and it's almost a bit it's like dystopian, it's like scary. You know what? I actually this was ages ago, but we did an episode with

with rooms and we spoke about Instagram face. Yes. And like how everyone's morphing in Hollywood into the same phase. It's so spooky. It's really the only reason I mean me, the only reason. The only reason I haven't had work done, no, I feel like for me I'm very scared of needles and that freaks me out. I I get quite anxious about that. But there's a part of me as someone who is an actor and and does comedy and I'm on screen and on camera.

There is a part of me that's like, I'm thirty-three now. I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to do something. Because everyone that you see in Hollywood has had something done. There's no There's no way that people are in that industry without um getting a little nip tuck of something. And I think it's'cause you just they would constantly be seeing themselves on camera. It's it's one of the most confronting things. It's very it's very hard to not

But and you know what? It's even that whole thing of like this Ozempic epidemic. Which I think is really wild. I think it's like a little bit it scares me, but at the same time I I don't know. I I don't like this whole heroin chic resurgence. I don't like it. I don't think it's It's healthy. I don't think it's a great message to be sending people Um, but at the same time, I get it. I empathize with people that

That do feel like they found this loophole to you know what I mean. I think that's why when we have these conversations, there's almost two conversations and I think this is the big critique that pretty privilege gets when we talk about and what makes people comfortable is'cause Obviously it is a form of choice feminism. And I think when talking about Ozempic and stuff like that, like that's all plays into it because for you as an individual to make that decision, I don't judge

at all to be honest. Because I can see how we got there. I how can you not? How can you not? Yeah, very good. But I can also think, okay, I'm not sure we can call it feminism though, because that In the s and I know that's like complicated, but the idea that like what feminism is meant to be is that you it's not about the individual. Like the feminism is about like doing what's right for the collection. Which I think was a bit more

I do feel like first second wave definitely left out a lot of um women of colour. I I think Hopefully it's a bit more third and fourth, but then this is when this comes in and becomes more choice feminism. And it's like that idea of like, okay, well, can we take what we can get as the individual to like survive in this?

In this world. In this world. And like but then it's like, yeah, but we can't say that this is for the collective greater good. It's sick. It's very it's it's also there is a um a Margaret Atwood quote. The way wow. The way I've been at doing all this research for my new show, basically about uh uh kind of about some of this stuff. Um, it's more about love and and my experience of not ever, ever feeling that, whatever that is.

But I was looking up this this quote of Margaret Atwoods and I find it actually is really relates to this this whole idea I can't remember what book it's from or what um Male fantasies male fantasies does everything run by male fantasies, up on a pedestal or down on your knees. It's all a male fantasy that you're strong enough to take what they dish out or else too weak to do anything about it.

Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy. Pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever present watcher peering through the keyhole. Peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur. Disgusting. Disgusting. But it's like as in like in the best like incredible. Because it's also

I feel like it's such a unfortunate thing of trying to like kill the man in your head. But we live in a society that is patriarchal. And I know that things are definitely changed. You can see it, you can feel it. It's things are changing, but there is a part of me that's like I I I I don't know, I wanna do what makes me feel good and unfortunately, I mean, you know

I think it's a bit extreme to go on Ozempic, but at the same time I see why people, if they feel like that's their only only option, to be perceived as beautiful in this world. Yeah. I get it. I think it's really unfortunate, but I get it. I get it. And I think that's why I don't think it's fair to judge people on individual levels. Like you can judge society at large and like take steps towards that.

hopefully collectively. Yeah. But um I do judge judge like an Erica Kirk who's going around going, Babe g like I judge a woman like that. I find I th again this is maybe going on a tangent, but even this whole idea of like the whole trad wife thing, I'm like We live in a world where it's so

Everything on our phones, we're we're being fed all this information, fed all this like influencer culture, people with the distorted features that are not that are not their natural features or natural bodies. I feel like the lack of um honesty and authenticity is what I think we suffer from. I you know what it would be good is if people are on o Ozempic or getting fifty million procedures done and they were honest about it. That's what they should then e then again is that another topic of

Is that unethically not good? Because then people go, Oh, well they did that, so I should do that. But I don't know. I don't know where stuff like this stops and starts. I think it's interesting I think Erica Kirk and and there are so many w women that you're like Can I critique another one? Yeah. Yeah, babe. Yeah. This is it. I'm giving you permission. Yeah. You shouldn't be I can't the way that she's going around uh like

Telling people to like go back to this like trad wife lifestyle when it's like, you don't even you're going out on your spe feminism is the reason why you're even allowed to do this. Like I find it really odd when people are like, Oh, I'm not a feminist. It's like, well

If you what do you really want to go back to this tr the trad wives that you're looking at online, they're influencers that have a nannies and they have, you know, um assistants and they're making thousands millions of dollars or whatever the hell it is. And I I think that also this idea of what is perceived as beautiful or pretty or again, it's that whole thing, male fa it's like if you I mean, yeah, if you want to t tailor to that, I I don't know, it's frustrating.

It's marketing at the end of the day. Like Erica Kirk is a great example of not following at all what you preach. Like she is a CEO. Yeah. And, you know, would have help and nannies and wealth and like completely the opposite of what she's telling every other woman to be and it's like it's so weird. The the con the the contradiction of it all is crazy. Insane insane.

Yeah, and I feel like you you're dealing with pressure and and critique on that level as a woman from other women. Yeah. But then it's interesting when we talk about critiques from other women as well, because what I find fascinating about this whole conversation of pretty privilege. Obviously we know it exists. As we were saying, like we know there are hot girls walking around, we know there are models.

We can accept there are hot girls and there are girls hotter or whatever it is. We can't accept them knowing that they're hot. Like it is, it is. And that's why I think it was so funny because even as you were talking about it, I was like, Oh God, I need to say that The funniest part about I think the tagline for my show is basically that like it's actually so hard for me to be hot. It's actually really, really hard and

This is what this show's about and how difficult it is and how everyone hates me and the you know, all the other comedians look like mutants and they're all jealous of me. Like it's so clearly I'm joking about like the mutant thing. But for me it is that whole thing of

The that's like the little pull you know, to get to get them in and there's a bit of marketing or whatever and like bait. It's rage bait. And even in the same sense of um I was even gonna say that whole thing of, you know, we don't judge what women wanna wear or do or whatever. I wore a bikini on my poster, and I think there was a part of me that was like on I there's a part of me that was a bit like nervous and and scared to do that. But again, it's like

I don't even want to call it rebellion, but it's almost like this punk rock statement of you will judge me for my body, you will judge me for my face, you will judge me for anything. If I wear this and I don't feel good about how I like every night when I do the show.

I end the show doing like a dance as like a fembo and I wear lingerie. I've I love this video. It's so good. It's so w it's wild, but it's like it all ties in with the show. But it's funny how there are nights where I don't feel confident and I don't feel beautiful and I don't feel the best about my body because, you know, that's that's our lives as as women.

And it's almost like this defiant thing, especially growing up as a dancer. It's almost like a part of me goes, Regardless of how I feel or how I think others are gonna make me feel, I'm still gonna go out there and do this dance that makes me feel good because I know that it is a

I don't know, it's almost like a form of r a rebellion against what we're told. Do you know what I mean? It's not like I'm doing it to cater to the male gaze. It and it's exactly what we're talking about. If like um you can make these statements and like point out this like feels like an obvious as well. But like doing so in a way that still feels palatable to people, which is really

Uh fascinating because it you have to have a lot of self-awareness to be able to do it, which is what your show is, like incredibly self-aware. But it is kind of this thing of like, You're not really otherwise meant to be too sexual or too hot or like it has to be in the right kind of way. Like a it's like The girl next door who doesn't know she's cream, it's gonna be that it's the whole thing of women are only valued for their look.

If they don't actually know that they're attractive. You're punished for being pretty, you're punished for knowing it. Literally, if you had autonomy over who you are and what you think you are and your intelligence and your your um you know uh humor.

Or you're look it's a it's kind of it's a double edged sword and that's what I w made my show about because I found it very, very fascinating that there would be times when I'd walk out on stage and it would just be from what I was wearing because It was very anti-comedy. I would wear heels and I would wear a little dress. Yeah. And it was almost me trying to take the piss out of this world that was so male-centric and male-dominated.

that women felt like to fit in, they had to dress down, which I think also is another Do you know what I mean? It's not like that. But it is what I mean. Be palatable. Don't don't be uncomfortable. It's very post m my my act is very post me too. There's obviously people like Natasha LeJerry, one of my favorite comedians ever from the States. She

was, you know, doing a persona, you know, um, as well that is high status and and amazing. But it again it's like and it has to almost be like, Oh, I'm playing a persona and it's almost like I'd have to break character in Australia especially because

They couldn't fathom the idea that in comedy I would get on stage. And it's my style of comedy, I feel like I don't get enough credit. And I feel like I and they're saying that going like, now I sound like my persona. Oh, I don't get enough credit. But I find it interesting that people

Babe, after that nomination, the amount of people with egg on their faces and coming out to me going, I always got what you did, always got your comedy. I'm like, No, you didn't. Really? The amount of people that turned around pretending that they always got what I did when I know that they used to talk badly about still people still do. People don't get what I'm doing.

especially unfortunately majority men but there's a lot of women that don't too because they think that I'm catering to the male gays. I'm like it's the male gays and the gay men, but never mind. And it's it's just this funny visceral reaction from even the audience as soon as I walk out. I don't even have to talk on the mic before they already judge me. Do you know what I mean? It's like you're doing a live social experiment. Exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is.

owned it and made it your comedy. But like the way you get away with it is exploring this expectation to recognize it. Critique it and then also transcend it somehow. Babe, I'm going, what the hell? You should write my you should write my bios and things though. That's great. It's for me a litmus test. Mm. Cause I'm not making fun of women. The amount of people that will come up to me after and they think it's a compliment to go

I know a woman just like that because they think it's like a very and it's very funny because I'm like, I'm not making fun of women. I'm making fun of how you see women. I'm making fun of the

the ideas that you put onto women. You want me to be this thing because of how you I don't know. It's yeah. It's very it's an almost that people like, oh, but you're doing it ironically. I'm like, no, not really. It's not really ironic. It's more the fact that you either will sit there and go, Oh, she's not even that hot because I think I am or You'll already be judging that you can see maybe my nipples on stage or you c you're already p like and I do this bit in my show where I'm

talking to the audience and I start moving in slow motion and music starts playing'cause I make it out because everyone was telling me don't don't dress too sexy on stage. People won't listen to you or take you seriously or they'll think that you're trying to fuck their husbands. And I'm going I'm okay.

I I'm not a male comedian, I do this to get laid. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just so it's so harder to be a comedian. It's harder baby but that's what my next show's about. Is it's harder for me to be a female comedian and try and like get hit on by people. Yeah, babe it's a hole. And especially women that are like, you know, perceived as like almost like a succubus, babe.

It's almost like the the confidence in your sexuality as well. That's another thing too. If you're a woman that is confident and empowered and you like the way that you look Zip it, Hoddy. And whether it is and whether you are conventionally attractive, isn't it so funny that

It it's it's almost like men, I know this is a for a fact. Men won't respect women because they don't find them attractive. But yet if she has um if if a woman that they perceive as not attractive has ownership and she goes, I look good and I love myself

It's almost like they can't compute. They're like, sorry, you're not allowed to do that. But it doesn't matter what level of attractiveness you are to these people, to these men or to women, because I d I do know that the internalized misogyny is rife. It it's it's unfortunate that um it's it basically

to go to go under the topic. Pretty privilege is real, but there also is a negative um there's there's pros and cons in the sense of like I've said, as women, we are constantly under scrutiny, regardless of what we do, regardless of how we look. that um if you are pretty it's one thing you'll be judged maybe that people will think you're stupid.

They they'll they won't think that you're all these things which I feel like I've dealt with that before I go on stage I'll be in the green room and be a comic comedians won't even talk to you. You know what I mean? Also, nobody wants to hear a hot girl complain. Nobody wants to hear that. Like a m like I have

I have like th two of my closest friends are models. And when I hear them talk sometimes I'm like, Oh my god, I can't. I can't even notice like this. I can't notice my name. But I do think there is an element of that is the choice feminism we're talking about because when you do see a hot white girl complain, you're like, Well, you're not facing like especially from women of colour, you know, it's like you're not facing the same

systemic discrimination. And so it f that feels like the tone that feels like the Neppo baby complaining about being a Neppo baby. It is ba a bit about all that complaining that like I don't know why people say that it's like that it's bad that I'm a Neppo baby and I'm going, bitch, like how can you not see th for me it's like That lack of self awareness I think is what's what's lacking and that's what's key because

That is really, really um not not self aware. You almost like when we have this pretty privileged conversation, there almost has to be like a baseline understanding that's assumed here about like a self aware. I know that for me like I know that what I benefit from is so different from a woman of colour already at a baseline that it's almost like whether they are different body types, different different sexualities. Like there's so many factors that come into it.

And I just don't think that I think that that's the problem. A lot of women I think what's annoying and what I think is really frustrating is that there is this whole idea of Feminism and like I'm I'm independent, I'm doing this. It's sort of like um if feminism isn't really feminism of sort of lifting everybody el else up with us. And I don't think that there is enough of that. There's not enough advocating for people less fortunate and and or

that are, you know, criticized way more than we I that's the that's the stuff that I think is a little bit Yeah. Yeah. I think when we're talking about like women talking to other women about this, it is this like relentless cycle of there is always going to be someone

else that you deem must have life better because they look like that or I wish I looked like that or I wish and like That exists. I don't I actually don't know anyone in my life that doesn't have that same feeling of like being in the room or being in a photo or being in whatever and being like, Oh my god, I do not feel like I'm the prettiest one or even close and like that's such a human experience. But it's also what has

propped up a multi-billion dollar wellness like they this is like we are all facing this. This is like

That's the thing. It's like when you find out Yeah, exactly. And when you find out that it's almost like they're just like us. Like you know what I mean? Like models and actors that are like they're the most beautiful girl. They cry too. They cry too. It's like but that is I think also And I'm saying this with like a great with a great assault because I find it funny that I think people perceive because of what I do on stage And I

It's so funny. I never grew up thinking I was attractive. I never felt that I was that way. I obviously, it's again, fake it till you make it, manifesting this. idea. It's like if I go on stage and I say that I'm hot and I and I do this and I dance in what makes me feel sexy and powerful and it does it works. There is a part of it that works. But I find it really interesting I definitely have days where I don't feel that way. But I find it interesting that me being like this or acting like this.

There's women that will come up to me and say, I feel now that it's okay for me to feel th this or you've made me feel this way. So there's a power in that as well, which I think is really interesting. And at the same time You know, it's not like I I I'm I'm trying to I'm I'm like some sort of, you know, you've gotta do that's like a cult leader or something. Like you don't try to be like, you've gotta do this and do it the way I'm doing. Which is what makes like that's almost an armor.

In its own. It is a fact. And that's kind of what that my next show is about is this whole idea is is what I even when you were saying that, it's like I feel like for me, it's this armor and the more things go well for me, I can't completely let it down, especially when it comes to finding connections or having relationships, because I think again

It's a it's another topic because of the the patriarchy and the shifting ideologies and the independence that women have now. But also this idea of um the way men perceive women in general. is so flawed that we're already not equal. And I don't know how long it's gonna take for us for it to really ever be considered equal. But even me, I this is so funny, but it's the the whole thing for me is that when I

I say I've never been in love and I don't know if it's real. It's almost like because of people's idea of what I do on stage or how I I'm Australia's first attractive comedian, they're almost like in shock. They can't believe that I've never been in love. Or it's almost like a Oh uh you and it's like it's so funny because I always almost go, Oh no, I think this this next show I wanna talk about the how scary it is to let that guard down because I think at the same time

It's it's really interesting that men will perceive you when you're confident. It's not even just about how you look. It's also how you look comes into a baby. It's your aura, it's your confidence, is that you are a threat. And I think the looks thing comes into it, but it's also this whole idea of if you're if you're you're now in like this weird competition, it's almost like the the looks kind of come into it. I I talk about it in the in the new show is that um

I feel like I either get treated like shit by men or I get treated like a trophy and how um there's no in between there's no in between. And even that it's like I'm either something to bring down and take down a few pegs or I'm a trophy. And I you'd think that being a trophy would be

quite fun and you'd and you'd and you'd like it, but it's the opposite. It felt so degrading and it felt really because then again I was treated and also this might sound like pretty pretty this might sound like me going Oh, I'm it's really hard for me to be, but it it's really hurtful because it's also almost like the consequences of being a woman on stage that's like, I I'm hot and I n know that I'm hot is almost the the consequences of that is that a man will treat you like you're

um your social currency. Yeah. And and I think in this day and age it's even worse because everybody wants to be wanted, but nobody wants to be want nobody wants to want. this whole idea that to be desired is currency but to desire is a liability. And I read that on this amazing Substack and I just was like, wow and it just hit me'cause it's this whole thing of, um

You know, yeah, we can all make ourselves desirable and we can all but at the same time, West I feel like I still suffer. I'm sure many women still feel like they suffer because It's not just about how you look, it's about how we are perceived in this society. And the more confident and the more independent, the the better that you do at your job, it's like, Well, will I ever find true love and connection?

If if a man's can't actually see me as a fucking person. No. Oh my god. I w okay, we're gonna have to do another episode that you're the best person to think about. No, no, no, no. That wasn't a huge tangent, but it's like my way of trying to say I know that I have privilege of being, you know, a certain but it's how you're treated and I think that's such a tangible um

uh you know, example of how that shifts and and even when you were saying that like I and again, this is like quite high level thinking with it, but like when I think about how it's applied when we're talking about getting ahead or getting even with other guys, because I think choosing to leverage attractiveness isn't It doesn't mean you're actively like, Yeah, fuck, I love this system. This is awesome. It's like a so it's like you're surviving within it.

It is a survival technique. I I I find it it's very much that's exactly what it is. And I find it interesting that people can't see that as well. But also Some women could leverage that, but like men leverage every advantage they get. They leverage their networks, their wealth, like whatever else.

The most mediocre men you'll see are in the top roles that you've ever seen and now they're threatened by it. And it's like and they should be. But they leverage the similar privileges that they get with no moral panic. It's just framed as smart.

from them rather than anything else. And like it actually frustrates you, even you talking about it's like I'm having like a visceral reaction. Visceral reaction. Singling out women for using attractiveness, which like, you know, like a whole conversation here could be the whole entire influencer industry as well. And it's like that is a double standard for saying like they can't use their privileges, but babe, I saw this video on the way here.

And it was so interesting about this uh this girl saying that her male friend was talking about how he thinks it's so stupid that these influencers who don't really have any value have all this influence. And it's almost like You're angry because they have found a way of getting in and finding an audience.

And they can't they can't handle that because they have been these mediocre men in roles that it doesn't it didn't matter how they looked, it didn't matter and all of a sudden but it mattered how we looked, it mattered how we were perceived, w we couldn't be too confident, we couldn't be too this, we couldn't be too that. And all of a sudden this world, the influencer world

has almost like shadowing all of that. And now they can't handle it learning how much influences make a post. It's like one of my best. But also like at the same time, it's like don't hate them, hate the game. And sorry, it's a and and I think

uh the with the influencer creator economy, like there is so there is a ways to go, especially when we're talking about totally representation and like the you know, the critiques are pretty privileged within that of like what how to like uplift way more women in but as a starting point Like you can't I'm not hating anyway. That's what I'm saying. There's also many different kinds of privileges to exist, like similar to what I was saying with the boys. Like you have the privilege of

education, of being talented, of being funny, of being intelligent. And it's like I would never say, hey, don't be funny. These sorry, the amount of especially coming from the comedy world, I've been sort of writing a bit of material about this because I find it really interesting that

We look at w I I go, Why do men act like they act? And I go, Because they've been told their whole lives that they have the God given right to do whatever the fuck they want. That is why I've been doing it at shows and going, How's it feel? And men are like, um and they and everyone laughs and then they go

Oh pretty good. I go, I bet it does. I bet it feels fucking amazing to go through life, living your life. And that's why they sit like this on the on the subway. That's why they live like that on the on the train because they they're told that they can take up space. That's they've been told that they can do that.

And then for us it's like we've been told the opposite. Be small, don't say too much, don't do this. And I I don't know, I find it really interesting that th that they're having this moment now where they're almost like their what they've gone through life tell being told that they can do. Like even with with comedy you can see it. The women and the queer men are taking comedy and the

The way that we do it is on a whole other level. It's almost giving this is gonna be the funniest reference. Thank you. High school musical. Troy you're telling me Troy Bolton is better than you know what I mean? Like Ryan Evans or Sharpay. Do you know what I mean? Like it's almost like the Sharpay Evans of it all, someone who has worked her ass off. She's like the the the bitch. She's a bad guy. I'm going, Toy Bolton should be playing basketball. Just'cause you can hold a note.

You can't just be you can't just be the star of the musical. She's got outfit. She's worked hard. Like even justice for her, justice for Sharpei Evans. The fact that also you can see it even the way that we market actors. Especially coming from the acting world as well. Ю ферс холдан алсай ви комеді. You will see it over and over again. A male comedian walks out, it's almost like the crowd will just trust that he will be funny because he is a white man, especially, or a man, right?

A woman walks out, they're waiting for us to fail. And then if you're the only woman on the lineup and you have a bad gig Then they all think that if you Told you women aren't funny, right?

fucked up and I hate that. So you feel this extra pressure. We also have to work twice as hard to even be considered for half the shit they get considered for. It is slowly changing, really slowly, but it's especially here. But then also you look at actors, babe. Look at actors and the way that they're marketed.

The less effort, the less they care, the better. Oh yeah. Especially with men. Babe, the way that they would market Harrison Ford as a carpenter, it's like, yeah, to support his acting career. Sam Worthington, there's all these rumors about his audition when I, you know, did the this course at NIDA.

And it was like this this this fairy this folk tale, this almost like folklore about how he went to the audition but didn't really want to do it and he had dreads and he came in with his surfboard right out of the from the beach.

And he did this um Shakespeare monologue um with swear words in it and he didn't even really want to be there and he got in and I was like, What the fuck are you talking about? Sorry, babe, you have to pay for a registration fee to go to NIDA. You can't just rock up. Also like To learn a monologue, like you have to really want to be an actor, but you can see it. Look at the way they market straight men and look at the way they market women. It's crazy. Well, it's not even like, and I think

We haven't even said this yet and it also feels like a a big part of it is when we're talking about pretty privilege, we're also talking about people maximizing on a shelf life as well. Yes, babe. Yes. You know burry that too. You know, that's like that's especially any women in media, but just in life in general. Like you do

You feel like if if that is a privilege that you've been given in w the eye of whatever beholder, you're like, Fuck, let me maximize on this because you got it, babe. Yeah. And even then it's like sick. That's a sick sick sick sick world that we live in. But at the same time as well, even you saying that I'm going It's so frustrating because we've also been told as women when we're talking about the You know, getting work done, et cetera.

We've been told that we have a shelf life. We've been told that like thirty is old. I can't believe the lies that we were told when we were growing up. It's just a really strange You know is it confusing space. Yeah, very confusing space. Take that confusing space and put it online. Like and l think about that. And put it online. Put it online and um yeah, make sure that we consume it every day, every second, um, you know, and What, you're gonna not gonna go around comparing yourself

You know, it's sick. It's the way something I've just found really fascinating. And I and I don't know if you find this with your content. Yeah. But the comment sections and what people feel it liberal to say. People are sick. But I think that's why I find and I'm so thankful that you've like had come on this journey with me on this topic today. Because I just find it's one of those things

that we haven't even scratched the surface. And it requires everyone, like whatever side of the coin, whatever level if we're talking you know, high level down to just like how we act in everyday life. There is so much interrogation to interrogate others, to interrogate ourselves, like You know the funniest part about all this? Babe, men aren't doing this. But the funniest part about all this is we are almost like too self aware. It's like almost a little bit like we're so

Self-aware and we do the work, babe. The amount of women that I know to go to therapy and men are going, Wow, like it's sort of and and I mean I'm saying No, it's we're not those guys are sitting around going like and what is what do I have to heal on myself for the way I've spoken about him recently? We're almost like two like we're so we we operate on such a high frequency

But the thing is, I think it makes us better people and I think we are the greater sex and I and we are the divine and until men realize that that sounds so intense, but that is what I wanna try and say in my next show. But also for f for me, babe, I think that we need to Um yeah, just be self aware at the same time, try and celebrate what we love about ourselves a little bit more because

God, you see some really like not to end on like a downer, but like you see some horrible, you know, situations where people feel so down about themselves. They feel like they can't love themselves or or feel like they can post a photo of themselves online. I'm going I'm just going We need to lift each other up. That's what we need to do as women. Because the more that we lift each other up and and

feel, you know, empowered together, the more that we all win in the end you know. Exactly. And that your show and the the fact that you're doing this all through comedy, which I genuinely I genuinely believe is the most powerful movement to be able to cut through Oh, in a simple way. That's why I I have I've had quite a few comedians on it. I love stand up comedy. I just think it's so powerful for that. So

I'm so so excited to keep watching you. If I I hope that the next show, you know, also can answer a few of these questions or, you know, we talk can talk a bit more in depth about stuff and I think I'm a bit nervous because I am gonna get a little bit more vulnerable in this one. But I'm like, I think comedy can be funny and I think it can be quite sad. And I think also, you know, it's really funny. I had women come out of my

First show saying that they were in tears at the Fembo at the end. And it's so funny, it's like this funny, silly dance, but it is really dark and there's moments that I think of my comedy that is dark because Yeah, there's layers there's layers there and and I hope that, you know, um you or anyone that comes along feels seen. That's what I want I want, you know, and that that means so much, babe, to hear you say that. So thank you.

For those listening, where where can they find you? How can they go see this show? Actually Friday, Saturday night I'm doing two work in progresses in Sydney. Then I'll be in Adelaide doing Australia's first attractive comedian, my first show, and then a week that's for a week. And then I'll be doing a week of um a whip, the the trophy it's called. That's the whip.

Um and then I'll be debuting I'll be then I'm going to New York, but you guys you know if you can't everyone wants to fly over. Um and then I'm doing Australia's first attractive comedian for one night in Hobart on the twenty first of March. And then I'm debuting my brand new show, Aphrodite, or if you want to say in Greek Aphroditi. And um she's the Greek goddess of love. And I'll be debuting that show in Melbourne. I'll be in Melbourne. Then in Perth for one night.

So Melbourne for two weeks, Perth for one night, then in Sydney for a week and then Brisbane for four nights. So hopefully and then um and Canberra hopefully gone on the babe, I'm exhausted even telling you I'm sorry about the w we'll have to put it in the in the the notes or whatever. Sorry. You are a hard that is hard. It's a lot. It's a lot. Also Auckland and Wellington, Auckland and um Canberra will also be included in that.

It's not released for that yet, but um hopefully see you there. It's gonna be I'm I'm excited. I'm excited to do a brand new show, but I'm a bit nervous, so hopefully the girls can come make me feel strong and powerful. Hope to see you there.