How Do We Talk About Grief? With Toni Lodge

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Production. My mum's ghost went to Dan Murphy's and bought a bottle of shampoo. Really good of her. It's really good. She asked for the money back though. Pretty cheap. She'd been requested afterwards. This is small talk, it's not quite a news headline, but it is what the girls are talking about, and I'm here with Tony Lodge.

Half of the Tony and Ryan podcast. The better half. The better half of the Tony So sorry, Ryan. He would I would say that to him to make enemies. And next week Ryan's on. He's never gonna come on now. No, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun. We we were actually just laughing about this before, but you started in radio, you were a producer, and now you're this huge

Talent in your own right. Oh my god. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well when I was in radio, I was like, oh, this is really fun. I'd love to be on the air. And they were like, no. I don't think so. You don't really have the right look. I'm like, well, okay. Radio. is not a look so I was gonna say. You know that the old insult? Like you've got a face for radio. Apparently you still have to be pretty good looking to be on the billboard and they don't like that. So

Here we are. Um, yeah. Oh my god. Because which which radio were you at? I moved around a bit. I started at SCA. So I was doing like Hit and Triple M. And then I did Kiss1011 Breakfast. At ARN, like in Melbourne. Yeah. Yeah. I did, I worked on Jason PJ, which was the best show ever. That's so fun. That's so fun. I was um I started off as a street teamer at SCA. That's the way to do it.

That's the way to do it. It's all the best. It's true. Yeah. I did crosses. I ha I handed out chocolate milk. Yeah. Oh yeah. We've we've done it all. Yeah. We've done I've literally we had like Last last w a few weeks ago we had um Mitch Turion and it was like a similar and everyone's like and everyone started out as a promo girl. Yes. That is that is the way to do it. Yeah.

Anyway, we made the move to podcast. So we're here now. Yes. And but like Tony and Ryan, you guys, the podcast has over a million downloads a month. That's that's unbelievable to fathom. That's really weird, isn't it? When I went and saw Taylor Swift. Um did you look at the arena? I'm looking at the arena and I'm like, oh my god, look at all these people here and I was like, Holy moly like you kind of the all those perspectives, I'm like, Am I Taylor Swift? You it's so funny. I went to the um

Amazing time. Unbelievable. Incredible. She is amazing. Incredible. It was the night that it was pouring rain, and the dancer like flew off the stage and they were like stopping the show. It was a very dramatic evening. But uh That feels very late again back then, yes. Yes. It was it was mayhem, honor. And um But

Harry, my boyfriend, looks at just the standing area, like the front half of the standing area and goes, And that's kinda crazy'cause that would be your podcast audience. So the fact that you ca you're looking at the whole stadium. That's c but it is weird, isn't it? I re I reckon like Now that we just see like the numbers on a screen, we just have like no ability to like really understand how many people that is.

And like, can you imagine if you had a conversation with like 10 people? Disgusting. Yeah. Let alone however many are listening. It's the best though. Like We have tappas that's Tony and Ryan podcast listeners um all around the world. And so we get like all these different perspectives on whatever we've talked about. And like because you much smarter than me, our podcast is a brain break. Like

It we decided because we started during COVID. We decided like this is a news-free zone. Like, we don't want to contribute to COVID. fear and chat and talk. And so it was kind of by accident, but it's now become like

a bit of a discipline. Like it would be really easy to talk about what's going on because it's filling out and there's a lot of comedy in it. There's so much going on and there's so much like Heaviness that it is actually now a discipline to be like, no, we actually don't want to be part of that, and we want to give people like half an hour a day where they're not.

thinking about that. There's also people much smarter than us that can comment on things. But we'll leave that to you guys. We'll stick to the dick jokes. But so I think it's been actually really a good, yeah, exercise in being like, no, we're like staying on that path of like this is just supposed to be silly. It's something even for our pot having this

interview series or even having the small talk side of it, like I just think both can exist at once. And this like idea that it it's like a guilt thing to not enjoy humor in times like this as well. Is like well that's That's making it a lot harder for everyone. Yeah. One thousand percent. Yeah. So it's been nice to be able to give pe and like we get messages daily of people being like, Thanks for just being a spot where I don't have to think about the news or

Like there was a really big like Ryan and I have both been through like hard times, like everybody. And like when my mum was really sick, like before she passed away, spoiler my mum's dead. Um really with all episodes. It's coming. Um but like I just watched The Office US like literally every night because I was like, I just need something that is just like so ridiculous, that is so far from my world right now.

And I think that people need that. And so it's been really nice to be able to provide that for people that are like in s vastly different scenarios, whether it's like A breakup or a shitty day at work or like trying to avoid the news or s like a a ill parent or something. Like it's been really nice. It's so nice and

And leads me. Dead parent chat. No, I get it. It's it's my headline. I hope that anybody listening to this isn't so bored of me talking about my dead mum. Do you know what I mean? Oh, she's craving. We get it. Like, uh I'm glad. No. Okay. What I mean Are your parents alive? My parents are alive. Love that you that's so nice. Okay. Wow. No. So I I No, go you go. I wanted I do want to talk about I want to talk about grief and the way that you've handled it because it's pretty incredible that I'm

Starting an episode about grief, people are reading this headline and hearing us laugh this much. Yeah, I know. It I think that some people find it so unsettling. The first people that come to mind for that are my family. Like, especially when my mum First died. So she had a brain tumor. She had CNS lymphoma. She was sick for exactly 11 months. Like she didn't make it to a year.

And when she first got sick, they were like, we actually think that this first round of chemo is gonna be sweet. We're gonna get it out of her and she's gonna be all good. And so even that was just like so crazy. I was 18 at the time and I was like, I just haven't lived any life yet. And now this is happening. Yeah. And I think because I retreated so much.

from all of my friends. I was at uni, but I d I just didn't really know what to do. All my friends from high school kind of they didn't know what to say to me either. So they pulled away from me as well. But No one really knew how to talk to me about it. I didn't know how to talk to them about it, but it was all I wanted to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. And I had just so many feelings in my body.

And then when my mum did pass away, it was still all I wanted to talk about. People still didn't know how to ask me. And even when I tried to talk to my family and kind of, you know, bring up my it would just like make a weird Yeah. And I've spoken about this at length and lots of people have kind of had the same consensus that in Western culture we aren't very good at talking about death. We're not very good at the awkwardness that it brings.

And we don't wanna say the wrong thing. Yeah. And I totally get it. It's so fucking tough to know Oh, can I say fuck? Is that okay? Absolutely you can. Right. Um but it is like it's So difficult because everybody handles things the same way. What I might want you to say to me is so different to what someone else might need. Yeah. So I do understand that, but the way that I felt like I could talk about it was by

making a joke because I tried to like break the ice and lighten the mood a little bit. It was just the only thing that I knew how to do. It but it makes so much, it makes so much sense. And I think God, even when I was like Oh, I I have Tony Lodge coming on the podcast. Like, she's so funny, she's so cool. And I'm gonna talk to her about her dead mother. And I'm like, why would I do that? Like, why would anyone want to talk about that? Like, but we are so hardwired.

to avoid discomfort as human beings. And like, I think the conversation, especially someone who hasn't lost anyone in their immediate family, I there's this like, A reminder of your own mortality and the mortality of your own family. And this like

feeling that you might accidentally speak it into existence. Totally. You you really don't know how to talk about it. And that that creates this like lack of open dialogue. And so I hope conversations like this I mean I think people will still always say the wrong thing somehow, but like it starts with just

Tabling the conversation as well? I think so. And if it's somebody that you really love that's going through it, it's not that you don't want to, it's just that you don't know how. And I and I do really respect that. I think the only thing that I really hated was Um, like when people said sorry, like, oh, I'm so sorry about your mom, or I'm like, Well, you didn't kill her. Like, I don't need you to be sorry. Like

I like I want you to say that fucking sucks because it does really suck. I am in emotional turmoil right now. And it's like you saying that you're sorry then shifts. the emotional responsibility onto me. Yeah. And I then have to go, no, oh my gosh, it's so fine. And then all I'm like, hang on. Like I'm now reassuring you. And you didn't mean that, but now I feel weird about it. And So I think that it was just more that I wanted people to agree and appreciate that it just sucked.

And it still sucks. It sucks now. It's been like 13 years and it still sucks. Of course it sucks. I don't know if it'll ever not suc No, no, it won't. And I just I I find it's interesting. I I mean, I had a a friend who's hi her dad passed away and um So much of what she was saying is and she's very good at laughing about it in ways, but she said it's very tough for her. A, she's the same thing with the sorry. And the second thing would be like, Oh, I totally understand.

Um and then they'll name a distant relative or or like a pet and you go, I'm also now comforting you for that, but I don't think that's the same as a parent in ways, and it's like It's tough'cause everyone's worst thing is their worst thing. Like the worst thing that happened to somebody might be that they missed the bus that day and it meant that they missed this thing at work.

And like, is that the same as my mum dying? Maybe not, but to them on that day, that was the worst thing that happened to them. And you wanna be able to relate to say like this is safe. Yeah. And I think that We as humans, like we look for patterns and I think that we go, you're feeling sad. I want to tell you about a time that I felt sad.

And in a way, I think it is actually really charming that we look for, I'm like, oh my God, let me hang on, go through my beep beep beep beep beep database and think about the saddest I've ever been so that I can try and relate to you like. There is something kind of dark and sweet about that. It is. And I feel like I've had times when I've like not in relation to this, but if someone's told me something and then I've tried to relate and be like, oh

Same thing, similar things happen. And then I walk away and I go, shut the fuck up. Why did I say that, bitch? Like, yeah, but you are like you do mean it in a um Absolutely trying to meet you at your level. And I'm trying to tell you that like I felt sad to be. Like I think my I d I just think I judge people a lot less on their reaction to those things now because I'm like, I know that you are genuinely trying to meet me where I'm at.

Yeah. But I think that yeah, it takes a long time to get to that point. When at the beginning you're just so angry. Yeah. You're just so mad with everybody. And you see someone that's happy or they mention their mom and you go, Oh, I love shock's my mum. Oh, sounds awesome. Oh you know, like you're just so mad. And I'm like, I want to hit you in the face for telling me that your mum pissed you off. I would love for my mum to piss me off, you know? And I know that she would.

If she was alive, I know that she would pee I think there's also there's this like holier than thou thing of like My mum passed away and if she was here I would love every minute. Yeah, I would, but I know that she would still annoy me'cause she's still my mum. Yes.

The people we love the most annoy us the most. Because they can. Because they know us the most. Because we let them. They know how to pull your strings because they know everything about you. Genuinely. They created you. Yes. Yes. And and also just the age that you were as well. Like nineteen is such a f formative Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Like if I like nineteen

There's actually like a running joke online about like your 19-year-old love, your 19-year-old crash out, like Really? Yes. Because it's such a like You're just on the brink of somewhat adults in your 20s. But you've just been allowed to vote, which feels like a very big deal. Um, I think. They also I've read a lot about this kind of thing and that like you get

stuck in the year that like something super traumatic happens to you, whether it is a death or an accident or anything like that. I've read about that for celebrities when they like get famous and then they get stuck mentally at the age that they are. Interesting. But I th it would all it is. It's like it's not it's it's

It is trauma. It's that like something really shifted that year. Really quickly. And I think that, yeah, for a long time I probably was like stuck at that age. And then it was really hard to like acknowledge that I was Changing. And I think part of it for me, I don't know if this is like a real thing, but I think part of it for me was that I wanted to stay the same person that she knew. Yeah. Because I was like, well, if I change.

She's getting further and further away from me. Yeah. And I don't want to move on. Like I don't want her to think that I've gone, all right, well Wash my hands of that, she's gone. Now I'm just gonna move on. Like, so there was so much guilt in like moving on with my life and becoming a different person or different version of myself and like

growing and learning because I was like, oh, but she didn't know that about me. Yeah. So I didn't want to lose that. I I think that that makes so much sense. And I feel like something I've heard a lot about as well is like happens, you get this like explosion of goodwill from people. You know, you have people that want to drop ready-made meals like checking two weeks.

Yeah, and it's like the the world stops and they and they give you that like grace period of a few weeks or till after the funeral or whatever it is. And then people do move on with their lives and that's a r that must just be the most confusing feeling of having so much and then suddenly everyone moves on and then you're like, Well, I can't out of

Well, I'm like stuck here. And I think as well, it's like those two weeks or week is like so overwhelming. Everyone that you ever met, there is such an outpouring of love. And it's it's so lovely. Yeah. But then when that when you're in that, it's like too much. And then it's all gone and you go, Oh no, come back like wouldn't you have all come up with like a timetable? Maybe one of you message me each week for the next like thirty weeks instead of

thirty of you in the one day. Even it's thirty years actually. Yeah. Just just just even it out a little bit. I would have really appreciated that. And so I try and make a concerted effort to like when that happens to people. I'm like I'm not gonna message straight away. Or if I do, I try and then also go like A couple of weeks after and go, everyone's gone now. Like

Like now that things have died down, how are you actually feeling? Cause that's when you start to kind of process it, I think. Like I mean, I'm not a genius. I'm not like an expert in this field. I just know how I felt. Yeah. And now how I like to try and support people in my life after those kinds of things happen. Like Such an incredible

Book about this and the title as well. Yeah, I don't need therapy. I did. I do. Everyone's up in brackets and other lies I tell myself. You missed the best part of the title. That I I mean, did you find Wanting to write that was because you were getting so many different reactions from people, or was it a way of processing yourself, or probably kind of both. I think the processing part.

What like the cathartic nature of like writing all my thoughts down and getting to kind of share it. And because I'd never thought That anything that I was saying is Or was groundbreaking. Like, I don't think that I've ever, like do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think that anything I could say is really that

Different to what anyone else is saying. But like after we started the pod and I was like happy to share about like laughs about my mum and happy memories and say that I was sad and all these people kind of messaged and were like, Oh, I lost my mom and I have always like related to dark humor, but people around me don't understand that it's really cool to hear someone else

kind of talk in that way. And so even that for me was quite validating because I was like, I thought I was just saying that into the ether and the fact it like Other people saying that they felt less alone made me feel less alone because I was like, Oh my god, there's other people out there that wanna laugh about this because it's just the only way they know forward. Yeah. Um

And so that was so nice to me. And I was like, oh, maybe I am ready to kind of explore some of these things. And, you know, it was like I think eight years after she'd passed away when I was writing that. And it felt like so much time had passed. And then every year it just gets further and further away. And I'm like, oh my like How am I still here? Because in that first year, those first three years, I was like

This might be it. Like I don't know how I can how am I gonna move on without This person who was so important to me and like such a huge part of my life. And like when she passed away, I still lived at home. You know, like all of those things were still She was still like fully my mum. Like I hadn't moved I didn't have a partner. I didn't have, you know, and all of my siblings are a lot older than me. So they all had partners and kids. And I just felt like so

like solo. Yeah. Like I I was like, you've all got people to like Go and chat to and kind of have your own life. And I was like, Well, I'm at home and she's not here and just, you know, that all of those things were so complicated. And I wonder as well, like, and and certainly it's not for everyone, but like

Especially for my friend, they were saying like it's such a such a thing that you when there is enough space or when you're ready to be able to talk about them, because You know, it like helps that stay, like that vividness, that vivid memory keeps that like

alive, but also because you want others to keep that vivid memory. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so it's like I don't want other people to forget who she was or um or things that she would say or the way that she would laugh or whatever. Like she had a pretty wicked sense of humor and

Like so when I talk about mum like this, like I've gotten people before being like, it's so disrespectful to your mother. I'm like, my mum would love it. She would love that I wrote a book about her. She would love that I'm here talking about her. I think that she would just be so excited like

She just would. I just know that she would. Absolut. But I I just I find as well, like, it would disarm people because again, like it when If you've been through it, I imagine there is so much a wealth of, you know, you were saying before, like, oh, everyone said this.

And yes, I think maybe if you're looking for that material they have, but if you haven't and you're like trying to engage and you don't know what that's like, you're like, I've never heard any of that before. It's such a power play at times. But the first time I ever met so I had kind of

If somebody ever said, and I was pretty angry little bitch, but if if people ever kind of mentioned their mom or something, I would drop a like, oh, I wouldn't know. Or that sounds lovely, or that must be nice, you know. And then the first time I met Ryan.

He was the first person to ever get me. Someone had said like, oh yeah, my mum really like pissed me off or something. And he was just he w was working at the same radio station as me. He was like walking through our conversation. And I was like, oh, must be nice. Like wish my mum was alive. And Ryan just like turns around and lobs out. At least she met yours and kept walking out. Because Ryan's adopted.

And he went through this really like quite public journey of like trying to find his birth family. He did like an ancestry DNA test. And um Ryan and I make a podcast together for anybody that doesn't know. And um so he had gone through this journey and he was the first person that had ever won that with me. And he just went, Oh, at least you met yours and kept walking like the smoothest operator I've ever seen. And I went

Who is that man? I was just like in disbelief. I was like, no one's ever beat me at my own game before. I don't like this. And then um I think like he was, he was, he ran off to do whatever he was doing. And then he came back and I was like, That was amazing. And he was just like, he was like, Yeah, I don't think I've ever won against you before in that way. And it was just, it was amazing. And it was like,

this great equalizer between the two of us and now you join forces. Yes. In morbid comedy. No, I was watching a literally a compilation the other day. That you guys must have put out on like Mother's Day or something like that. Yeah. And it's like, um

Dark humor jokes. I my mum's dead and I'm adopted. So legally we're allowed to make- We're allowed to make these jokes. And you w Oh my w I actually wrote, I was like Just so the audience can hear what I was working with when I was Sorry, I was trying to call my mum, but it was a deadline.

That's good. Why can't orphans play baseball? Because they don't know where home is. And you guys are just me slapping. We're like kissing yourselves. But then on the screen I loved at the start, you were like, It's okay to laugh.

Yeah. You actually put yes put that out for people watching. Because I think that it does it just makes people so uncomfortable. And like, I actually think that there was like five of those videos that we made and we only posted one because I think the comments were like, you're disgusting.

humans for doing this. And it was like, look, everybody deals with things differently. But then every now and again, like a great viral video will come around and it will be someone doing like dark humor about like their mum passing away. There was one last year, maybe the year before, and it was those two girls, those sisters, and they're sitting there pissing themselves and they're like, Oh, have you seen that video? Is this when they're saying like the stuff that they've

got wrong. Yes since they're mum. Yes, yeah, yeah. But they're piercing, laughing and it's just these two girls. And there's it's filled with comments and people are like, This is so disrespectful. It's disgusting. And I actually get it's not everyone's cup of tea, but For me, I go, Oh my god, you feel like my sisters. I feel like I know you. I feel like I now know your mum.

I feel like I'm part of your fa like the way that that brings you in for the right type of person. I just love it. Yeah and it's so cool that people are willing to share stuff like that online and it makes you feel so much less alone. Like if I didn't have the access to people now that I do where I've connected over how they might feel about losing a parent or, you know, oh, I was the same age as you when your mum passed away or whatever.

Well, you must have had a huge response from audiences as well. Do you is it because you put things out publicly though, um, and and have like navigated grief through the book and through the podcast? Do you find that a lot of people want to then talk to you about this? Yeah, but I kinda love it because I Love it sounds a bit fucked, but like I think We don't have a lot of people in our lives because of like

the community thing is kind of lost in this like day and age, which is awful. And I think that if somebody is willing to talk to someone that they don't know about it, Because there feels some connection that I'm like, Oh, you don't have anyone else to talk to about this. Um, and so I'm honored to be that person. I really am like

We have a Patreon for our podcast and we I reply to every DM. Like every single message that comes in. I d I You would be getting hundreds. I reply to everyone. I reply to every single one. Wow. And um often They are things like that. Like just found the podcast and like really relate to X and and the they're they're heavy, but it's really amazing that people are like, no, this feels like an open enough dialogue that I can now add my

story or and I can't believe that people would share that with me. It's so intimate. Um and so I'm very honored actually. I really love it. Well it is well you you even I was reading parts of the book, it's you are

It it is so bizarre that you're you are giggling and you could cry at the same time. Like I was watching That's me all the time. I could always cry. You know like when a baby's like teetering between two emotions and you're not sure if it's gonna start laugh at their goat.

They do that frown, you're like, Oh yeah. And you go, which way is this going? That's how I felt the entire time. Oh my god, that sounds like awful. That sounds like a terrible experience. No, I loved it like it there was The the bit and and I I wanna I'll read out a little bit so people get what I mean, but it was so funny and very um fleabag esque. To me when you were Fuck off. That's so sweet. I love people who loves it. Yeah. But there was this whole

Part where you're talking about the lead up to your to the funeral. Mm. And someone no, someone had asked, Are you okay? And you said, I am fine and then it was like, it wasn't okay. I needed to get my fucking eyebrows done. And did I need to bring a date to my mum's funeral? I probably wanted someone to hold my hand. Should I bring a boy? Imagine that incredibly honest phone call.

And then you go on like d wait, did and you did actually bring a date. No, I I didn't bring a date, but I booty called someone after my mum's funeral. Um, my friend Ian, who was busy and about two years ago we talked about this on Tony Ryan. Yeah. And I was like, I wonder if he was actually busy. And I messaged him and I was like, hey Do you remember that night? And he goes, yes.

And I was like, Were you actually busy? And he was like, I I was. And he like told me w where he was. He was like, I promise you that I would have been there if And he said it not in a way of like, yeah, I would have been there. Fuck yeah. It wasn't like that at all. It was I was literally like, Yeah,'cause I would understand if you lied, because that's a pretty brutal like message to get. Like you up, because I'm just at my mum's wake right now.

So grim. But yeah, he was busy. Uh I didn't die. Yeah, probably for the best. Do you know what? I probably didn't need to get cummed in that same day. Like I probably just didn't. I think that might have just added another layer of complexity to the emotions. It yes. But is quite um nice to get cummed in, so true. So it's like which one do you go with?

Yeah. Not where I was I don't even know where I was going with that sentence. I was part of me was hoping to find it as I started talking, but that was definitely not the direction. I didn't give you a lot to work with there. No, that's fair. That's totally fair. But And then th there was another bit we were talking about like Going dress shopping.

I literally remember it like it was yesterday. If there's anyone here listening that lives in Perth before carousel Got it's huge now and it's all new, but at the carousel, underneath the Hoits where the stairs were, on the left-hand side was like waves.

And on the right hand side was an alley. Do you remember Alley? I don't know if that exists anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like original fast fashion. That's so funny that we both just said that. Like it was like when we didn't know that plastic was bad for the environment. And that was where we my I was there with my three uh my two sisters and my sister-in-law, so my husband's my husband's wife, my brother's wife. Um little Freudian slipper. That was a bit interesting, wasn't it?

And it's like we just were all in there and I'm like, well, I have to find something to wear. And we're in this fast fashion shop. And if you can cast your mind back to the smell of plastic. But also like the mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm in those shops. Like the music is pumping. The girls are smacking gum in their mouths. Their lanyards like doing this against the cash register and like

Hi Bob, do you need a changing room? You know, like glory days. Oh, yeah. It really was. You just don't get it like that anymore. People used to really not care. And they didn't care if you lived or died. Like they couldn't have given less of a fuck. And love that for them, they were just making enough money to go clubbing that night. And so fine, so fine. That's just not why I was there. No, it wasn't. And she's like, I love that on you, babe. What's it for? And I was like, my mum's funeral.

And this girl's just like I'll leave you guys to it. Like she just could not have gotten out of there faster and I was like, so fair bitch. Like I would have done a U-turn as well if I could have if I didn't need to buy a dress for my mum's funeral.

Um doesn't fit me anymore, but I do still have it. I know. Well I remember you telling a story about how then you had a work friend that like raided your wardrobe and wore it one night. Yeah. And you were like, what that is And it felt really weird, but I was like Is that fine? Sh they didn't know. Like it's on as if they went, Oh, the dress she wore to her mom's funeral. That's perfect. Like they didn't know. But I just remember being like, Oh things just keep going.

That dress it doesn't owe anything to anyone. Yeah. I've just I know what it means to me, but for anybody else that doesn't mean anything to them. And I feel like that's kind of how grief shows up for me, like in my life all the time. Like The other day I was op shopping. Yeah, I'm a really good person. And I found this Tupperware cake container. And my sister has the same one and she's had it for like a hundred years. And she has it because it was my mom's. And I found this cake container.

And it's like this blue box on like a like a cream plate is like where you'd put like the cake and then the thing on the top. And I am in the op shop and I was like, oh, like, mum would love this kind of thing. And then I turned the corner and this fucking blue cake box is there. And I was just like, oh my God, she really is everywhere. Yeah. And like Spot me at the Savers Mega Store having a little cry about this fucking Tupperware.

The eight dollars in the op shop. And I was like, oh my God, like people have walked past this. It's just meant nothing to them. And th th those things really remind me, I think, of like How important it is to feel sentimental. I'm a very sentimental person. My mum was a really sentimental person.

I take things really to heart. I wear my heart on my sleeve a lot. And those things remind me that like that's the right way for me to live. Yeah. Cause I go, oh, but if I had ignored that, I wouldn't have had this like moment of connection with her. And I know it sounds so silly that it's a Tupperware cake box. Um, but and then I messaged my sister right away. I was like, you will not believe what I found. And she was so excited, she was like, Oh my god, like the one that mom had. Like it just

It's just so I just love it. And that's so me. But that's also such a good example of that grief is like, it's like omnipresent. You can't it's everywhere and like It really surprises you when it when it catches you off guard. Absolutely. Yeah. And it always does. Like you just. Little things and then or a song or smell. Yep. Yes, yep. Like the perfume my mum always wore. Like I can smell that in a football field. Like if someone's wearing it, I'm like, oh my god, my mum. Like

I just I know it from anywhere. And so all of those little things are just those little like glimmers of like, oh. Maybe I don't get to text her, but is that kind of my version of like her checking in and just reminding me that she's around like and it's a bit woo-woo, but it makes me feel so much more connected.

And I just yeah, it definitely gets me through'cause there have been times where like, say I'm like running a bit late and the light stays green a little bit longer than it should have and I'm like, Thanks, ma Like I n like I just know that those little things she's like looking out for me. So

I think that those things are also helped like in the beginning the grief was just like so suffocating that you can't see those like glimmers and then as you kinda move through it and you like learn to be a human again. Then those things come through and it's like a reward. Yeah. Because it's like, no, you fucking persevered and you didn't give up, even though it would have been really easy to and people would have understood. Yeah. So I think that those things just make it so worth it.

You talk about the woo-woo side of things, and something that comes up a lot is the like you have this inbuilt guardian angel forever, and you're like, oh. And like, you know, some people might not like that, but I know like my mum is super into like she's one of the most woo waff person you'll ever have. Have you come up with like a code word so that if you go to a sidekick after she passes away, you know that she's really there?

Wait, genius. No. You have to. My sister's psychic a lot. My sister and I have come up with one because I was like, We need to know that I'm I need to know that you're there.

Yeah, I'm not gonna say what it is because then any psychics listening might be able to scam me. I'm not kidding though. I went to a psychic and they were like, Oh, your like your nanny is here, and the stuff that they said, the roomy for six, like stuff that And I went till my mum sent me.'Cause mom's like, No, like you'll love it, it'll it'll be good for you.

And I went and I was like, this lady's batshit. And then she started she kept talking and I was like, wait, and then suddenly I'm bawling my eyes out in this in this and it was like some of the weirdest Tiniest stuff that was like little memories that like could not have made sense otherwise. And I thought, you know what?

Bang on out of the shit. She's legit. She's legit. So you need to come up with a code word with your mum so that when she comes through for you, you'll know. I uh but you there's also something beautiful with mum that Um, because there is no fine out way of knowing, everything's assigned to mom. So, like a bird will come over and she'll be like, Yes. That's Nan. Yes. Yes. No, but see I kind of love that.

I mean, it's better to be just like so positive and so connected than just to not see it at all, in my opinion. Like I just think like if that like pop off. You know what I mean? Like I just think like, yes, accept it all. Bring it all in. I just love it. And y there are times when I'm probably oh fuck, that might have been a bit of a reach. But at the time I obviously really needed to see it.

Yeah. And it just you go, Yeah, well I needed to take that one for me and maybe it wasn't her, but like it really felt like I needed that that moment. Um, I don't know. And that I I th I don't think I don't even think that's woo at all. Like actually I think that's I think that's gorgeous. And that I and like as we're talking about signs and those moments where you wanna feel their

you feel them still. Yeah. And I think about that age you were at nineteen, but I think anyone that's lost a loved one, it's it is that feeling of like you go on and like look at your career. Like look at everything you've done. Look at all these like and

Oh my god, the engagement story was crack. Wait, we'll come back to that in like two seconds. That cracked me off so much. But you know, there's people that come into your life and that y or moments that happen that it's like they don't know this or they don't know this person. Yeah. Which is weird. Like, so my partner well, fiance now, but um, he Didn't ever meet my mom. But we were at uni together. And so we met while my mom had just gotten sick.

And so he wa we kind of like chatted. We weren't super close or anything, but we chatted and hung out and like gone out for lunch and like worked together at uni and stuff. And he knew that my mum was sick. And we'd kind of talked about that. And then like when I because I ended up like leaving uni to kind of care for her.

and then ended up after she passed away, like deferring for a year. So it was like towards the end of the year and I was like, I just need a few months before I know what I'm gonna do. I might come back. I didn't really know. Um, and so he knew her while she was sick. So for my whole like he's known our whole relationship, that's kind of been part of her. And but obviously I would love for them to have

known each other'cause I think that they would have gotten along really well. Um, but it is weird to think that like he's been around for so long that it's like, oh, that's always been part of it. But it was kinda nice that I never had to like in introduce the thought of like Yes, I love going for long walks on the beach. And yes, my mum is dead, we can get to it. You know, like how I don't even know how you would date and try and bring that into it. Like I

Yeah, I do not envy people that would have to kind of bring that into their story meeting someone like from scratch. And like when do you bring that up? And like, yeah. I don't wanna seem like I'm too like have too much baggage'cause I don't wanna be too high maintenance to this person or Yeah. Yeah. So luckily I've always been high maintenance. So he knew what to expect.

But also you guys it was eleven years you guys dated? Um yeah, twenty fourteen I think we started going out together like officially. And yeah, we like slept together for a bit'cause we were at uni and whatever. Very young like that's young. Yeah, yeah. I was really young. Um, but yeah, so we've been together since I was nineteen. Wow. Yeah. Which is so wild. Yeah. I'm now thirty two. I'm now thirty two. Yeah. I do you ever find like I have some friends that have been with partners

Since like high school or nineteen and you're like, Yeah, okay, that makes it and then and then other times I get scared because I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's like your whole experience It's growing up together. Yeah. Which is beautiful but also terrifying. Well I just think

I just really wasn't expecting that from this person. Like, and'cause I you know, I was like, Yeah, I'm so young. There's like all these things are still gonna happen to me. I wouldn't change it for the world, obviously. I love him to bits and he's just the best person on earth. Um But yeah, it is a long time. But then I think I just like I was like, God, yeah, but um I feel like an old soul now because of going through that so young. Yeah. And then I went through like a really dark period where

I didn't want to find joy in anything. Like I was so depressed and I um I also have OCD. So at that time I was going through like really bad triggers. Everything was very overwhelming. Then when I ended up finding out that I did like was diagnosed with OCD, I was like, okay, all of this is starting to make sense. Now I understand what triggers me and how this like shows up in my life. And it was a really long time that I just wouldn't have blamed him if he'd left.

And like I know that he wouldn't, but when I look back on that now, I'm like, wow, I was just I was so unhappy and I was so unwilling to help myself because I just didn't know how. I didn't know where to start. I didn't know who to talk to. I didn't know Like the problem was that my mum was dead and that couldn't be fixed. So I just felt so

Helpless, I guess. And now when I think back to that time, I just feel so sad for that Tony. Because I just deserved to feel better. I d I just did. And now that I know more about myself and I know how to look after myself better and I know what um I know when I need to go like, oh, I need to pull myself out of this. Like and it it's quicker now. And I know how to like cut off those little triggers and things like that. So

It's I just feel so sad from that version of me that like I really put her through the ringer. Like and I just feel so guilty for doing that. But I think I ha I just didn't know how to cope. But that uh you have to like The ability to know triggers and to underst and and like to navigate grief, to navigate on top of just what everyone's going through in their early Twenties and life in general. Yeah.

I I think that's an incredible amount of maturity actually. And I think they were talking about this the other day. It was like, oh, maturity doesn't actually necessarily come with age. Like maturity comes with experiences. Yeah. Or these moments. And there was actually something

in one of the bios that I read that really stood out to me where you said you were the opposite of whatever that girl was. And that I still think that's true. That that racked me up'cause I literally for this year has been like uh playing around with the concept of that girl'cause I find it fascinating that people

package it up like that. Yeah. When actually when I look at someone who like has a huge podcast like you and is has a book and is like that is that girl to me in so many ways. But In the way that like Nobody becomes this like successful or like well rounded person that's like done the work and has this maturity unless they've been through it. Like you don't get there without having a few years that are just or experiences that like

Turn your world upside down in some ways. And I think some m so many of the women that I look up to have had experiences that they've been open to share. Mm. Yeah, well I guess it it is that like People go through some type of adversity, whatever it is in your life and then You go, Well, I either have to like get through this or like I will stay here. And I think like

being able to go, I don't want to stay here is really hard. Yeah. Um, and well, it was for me and I knew what I was going through at the time. I didn't know what was on the other side of it. But like, um I don't know. I feel uncomfortable because I don't agree with you, but I really appreciate what you said. Um I don't think that I will ever have that girl energy. I don't think I'll ever be like that girl, you know, but

I think though I really am like proud of the person that I am. And I think I love that I have experienced all of these things because In a way I'm like, Well, I've already gone through the hardest thing I probably ever will. I hope so. I hope there's nothing worse coming. Um, but you know, like losing my mum, I think I just I did If it had to happen, then I'm really grateful that it did because I've learned so much.

And I've been able to share so much with other people and helped others and been able to talk and and I don't mean any of that in a wanky way. Like I've helped so many people. Like I know I'm not like the Dalai Lama or anything, but like, you know what I mean? I think it's like It's just I feel so grateful to then be able to ha like I've got I'm 32. I've got hopefully so much life ahead of me and I already know all of these things about myself. Yeah. My mum didn't know that much about herself.

Because she was waiting to retire so that she could go and travel the world and she never fucking got there. So I'm like, well, bitch, I think I need to like get a move on, you know? Let's wriggle through, let's get over the grief, let's move on so that we can go out and live our lives and not miss out. Yeah.

I I yes. Yeah. And I and I do agree with you actually in the Get a Regal off. But I also like I just that like um even We haven't ever even told the engagement story, but it was like you were shocked at first, you were on the couch. And I think The way you it was described is like this like comedy of errors in itself. And that is so much of your comedy, and like. Is that I guess like

Such a a lesson that you've learned from grief about using that comedy? Um, I don't know. I guess like trying to see the light in stuff or being like, oh, that hasn't gone well. Like I tried to, I think for a long time, I've just like Hated myself or berated myself into hoping that it got better. And that just was not working. So I think that trying to see the lighter side of things.

is where I'm trying to go. So when all of those things went wrong, I was like, okay. So the story kind of goes that like, um So Tobs and I, we had been together for A really long time. And we talked about getting married and then, like, so I knew that we would, but I think we just were spending all this time on kind of

on working and we moved around a lot. So like we're both from Perth. We moved to Regional WA for me to work in radio. We moved to Sydney for me to work in Metro Radio and then down to Melbourne to work in Metro Radio and He stood by me through like all of those career moves, all of those like all the things that I knew I needed to do. And I I knew that we would get married, but because we were like, well

At this stage we don't want children. We're not really in a rush to get anywhere. We're really happy together. So we probably just don't feel like we need to get to that like next step. Um, and so it was our surprise. Yeah. Um, but on I think it was like the Friday.

Um, he'd gotten home and he was really like acting really odd and he grabbed my hand and he was really sweaty and I was like, What's wrong with you? Why are you so sweaty? He's like, I'm not sweaty, and he just like walked away and I was like, What the f maybe he had a bad day at work or something, I don't know. And the next day, the Saturday, he like

He I was like, oh, I think I might cook blah for dinner. He goes, no, I found this like short rib pasta recipe. I'm gonna make. It looks so delicious. Like let me make dinner. And I was like, oh my God, how beautiful.

He makes this like little side salad. He makes this um this beautiful red pasta. And he goes, Oh, for the pasta, like I need a little bit of wine. So do you want a glass?'Cause I'm opening a bottle anyway. And I was like, I don't drink very much, but okay. Like I'll have a glass of wine with you, like that's fine. And like I was like Is something happening here? Like, I'm just like, it all starts like ticking over, and I'm like

Wait, am I getting engaged today? And then we're like sitting on the couch and normally we would just like watch some shit thing on TV, but he's like, oh, we should watch this movie or like what? And I was just and I'm sitting there and I'm like Oh my God, like I think I'm about to get engaged. And then like the movie finishes and we're like kind of lovey dovey sitting on the couch, like we're not on our phones, like we're fully like and then um we go to bed.

And it's that's it. And I was like, oh my god, I fully read that wrong. That's so random. And then the next day I was like, It like I was kind of in a bad mood'cause I was like, Oh, I feel really silly that I thought that something was gonna happen and it didn't and then I was like, No, that's so like, that's so ridiculous. Like, it's fine.

And then um it was like midday and we hadn't really talked very much. And I was just like, and he was like, is everything all good? And I was like, Yeah, it's just really awkward because I kind of thought that last night you were gonna propose to me, and I don't know where I got that from, and I'm really sorry, but I just feel grumpy.

It's like, you know, when you have a dream that someone's mean to you and then you're a bitch to them the next day because you're like, no, we're in an argument. Um, and so he was like, Oh.

sorry. And I was like, no, no, no. I actually don't want you to be sorry. I feel really bad that I'm mad with you about this. But then I was like, oh like, you know, we've been together for a long time. Like, is that, you know? And then he just kind of like froze up and I was just like, so you don't even want to talk about it? And I was the biggest mole. We had this like big argument and then we didn't talk for like two hours.

And then I was sitting on the couch and I was like, Well, I've got to go get stuff for dinner, so I'm just gonna go to the supermarket. He's like, No, no, no, I'll go to s like you stay here. Um, I'll go to the supermarket, I'll get stuff for dinner. And I was like, fine. And he go and he's like, I just need to go get changed. And he goes up to our room and he comes back with a different t-shirt on and the ring in his hand, like the ring box in his hand.

And he like walks over to me and kneels behind the couch and he's like Bowling. And he's shaking and he's like, I'm so sorry, la I was gonna I've I've been so nervous and I I really love you and I didn't know what to do and I have had the ring since Thursday. That's why I've been so sweaty and I didn't know what to do and he's like I was gonna wait another two weeks but then I I just really uh the second that the ring was in the house, I've moved it i in the house like 19 times.

He's like every time I th he's like, You haven't been in my wardrobe for three years, and then you went in my wardrobe and that's what the ring was. He just like full word from it, and I was sitting like What? Like a baby deer. I'm like this, like my eyes like bulging. And then he's like, So I'm so sorry, but will you please marry me? And I was like No, what what? And then anyway, I was like, what? He's like, please marry me. And he's like,

He looked grumpy and I was just like, What is going on? And then I was like, No, don't ask me like this. I was just such a bitch to you And he's like, No, I really wanted to ask, I just didn't know how And he's like, this is like the biggest moment of my life. And he j it was just it was so endearing and so beautiful because he's very quiet.

Um, it was so endearing and so beautiful. And then I like got up from the couch. I slipped back down the couch. The dog started barking at us because she was like, What the fuck is going on? And then so the dog's barking, I'm like freaking out, he's crying, we're both so sweaty, like it was just

Such a mess. It was such like it was such a mess. And it wasn't then for like another twenty minutes. He's like, oh, do you wanna look at the ring? Like he's like had it in his hand the whole time, but I've just been looking at him like Just the whole thing was such a chamaz and I had like a movie. It's actually exactly what I imagined.

Truly. I probably would have taken the argument away. I would have loved for the argument not to be part of it. But that created some suspense. It did. I would say that's a good thing. That's what a director logic actually is. Um but yeah, so I after saying no, I did say yes. Um and it was like, yeah, it was actually so perfect. It was so silly. Like it was

Anna was at home and Pippa was there, our dog, and you know, even though she was yelling at us, it's fine. But yeah, she never barks. She's never barked in her life and she barked at us and I was like, This is a beautiful moment, bitch. Get over it. Sorry, we're not talking about you right now. Ha ha ha I just I love that that sounds so beautiful. And I also

That stresses me out less than when I hear proposal stories that are like super public. So like, oh my God. If he had've proposed to me in public, I would have said no for real. Like I just would have been so embarrassed. And I think because we could kind of like Talk it out and like scream, cry at each other.

That was what we needed. Whereas if you're sitting, say you're at Korean barbecue and you get proposed to, you know, there's people walking around, it's all you can eat. Like they come back to change the grill out. You know, there's too much going on. I just don't think that that would be a good time. Then you go to would we just celebrate with a glass of hot water to like aid our digestion. I just don't think that that would have been the right vibe for that.

So I am s I love the way that you've like either or it's either at Korean bark or an out or it's well, what else is there? What else is there? What else is there? That's a metaphor for life I feel. You know, when you're at the Korean barbecue hot pot, what else is there? Um But no, and I I think it is so sweet. And then like I was like, Oh my god. We need to go to Libby's, like need to go to my sister's. And so we drove to my sister's straight away and like banged on her door.

Um, and she was so excited. And she's like, oh my god, I randomly have a bottle of champagne in the fridge. Like I never have champagne and like so we yeah, so it just designed it just worked out. Yeah, mum was there, she put it in there. My mum's ghost. And bought a bottle of shampoo. It's really good. She asked for the money back though. Pretty cheap. She beamed requested afterwards. Up request in the thing. Uh but no, so it was very beautiful and I love him.

So much and he's just the biggest sweetie pie. He's lovers sweetie pie. Yeah. A muffin, a sweetie pie. He's such a sweetie pie. He loves Korean barbecue. And if you were the one proposing, would it have gone to Korean barbecue?

Okay. So much. I'm a comic. I don't even I have nothing. I feel like that was just a wall of noise for the last like hour or something. The producer and me and out on a laugh. I wasn't too self indulgent, that's so funny. No, w I mean no, I probably should say so like t to wrap this up. Oh leave that in after you're I reckon we're gonna leave this. This is an uncut version actually. For for people listening though, and I do think if you've

clicked on this episode, you know, either you're just a really solid listener to the bottom that you know, there's a lot of people in here that The highs and the lows. That would be that would be listening because They might be at the beginning of a grief journey or expi in the middle of it or i looking for guidance. Like maybe for anyone who is at the start of that, what is your what is your parting words of wisdom? I think try and find joy in little ways. Really easy to say

Oh, just think of the good times, but I don't think that's healthy either. I don't think that like cutting it out is healthy. And I don't think the like toxic positivity thing is good either. But trying to find little pieces of joy each day, even if it's that like The Rockabee protein milks that you love from Woolworth's Ron Special, which they actually are at the moment, are full dollar off. They're expensive.

They're expensive. Um, you know, if that's your joy for that day, then that's fine. Like, but just being really kind to yourself because it's just, it's fucking tough. It's so tough. And I d like if someone that you loved was going through it, you would never expect them to be back at work the next day. You would never expect them to be back at the gym or back to being themselves or what you know, like I think don't put pressure on being yourself before.

Because that she doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. Like that person is uh changed now. There's like been a m movement and a difference. And they can't not be, you know? Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think that would be you would Almost like beat yourself up over that too. Like, why aren't I back to work? I used to be so fun. It's like, no, like that's just it was just a different time. Time for that will come again. But I just don't think that there's so she used to put so much pressure on yourself being

Just happy go lucky immediately if that's what you want to return to. It will come, but don't hurt yourself over that coming like immediately. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on this. It was so lovely to have you on. You're the guest on the podcast!