Ex-Prince Andrew Arrest, Tyra Banks & 'ISIS Brides'

Production.

Hi, I'm Hannah. And I'm Sarah. And this is Big Small Talk. This is the podcast where we try to cover the entirety of the news cycle, from the serious to the frivolous, all in one place. Because loving pop culture doesn't mean you don't understand politics. And today we're going to be talking about Prince Andrew Arrested, the Hillary Duff.

And Hannah Montana resurgents, Pauline Hansen and Isis Brides, The America's Next Top Model documentary, The Social Media Trial, and Eileen Goo. But before we begin today's episode, we would like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we're recording today. The Gadigal people, and pay our respect to Elders past and present. But before we get into the actual news, Hannah can be your personal headline. Um, I actually was thinking about this.

Two things. On a smaller note, I've had a life-changing experience, which is a smaller note. I've had a life-changing experience last week where I got my hair and makeup done for a shoot, and the hair and makeup lady, Sally, her name is at the ABC, said even thought about parting your hair differently? And Sarah, when I tell you it changed my life.

You know when someone just like suggests me you go, never I've never contemplated that. And you suddenly I was walking around, I got home and I said to my partner. ever seen me be more beautiful? And he said, what? He goes, what happened? And I said, just look at my forehead. She's absolutely found the perfect way to part my hair to make my face look in a completely different way.

It's not noticeable to anyone but me, I'm pretty sure. No, it's noticeable because you radiate now from the confidence and that's what makes it noticeable. I actually said on the way out of hair and makeup w to Sally, I said, I'm actually now considering a my life before part and after part. Is it B P or is it AP? When you go through a breakup or anything You change your hair. Oh You go through a new life phase, you change your hair.

Slightly. I've never actually dyed my hair personally. I haven't been able to commit to that and I'll explain actually later in the episode why that is. I mean, truly this is my personal headline and we're suddenly segueing. Sorry. But you have to change it. Yeah, you do. I've just I've started padding on the other side. It's completely changed my hairline. Wow, wow, wow. Thank you, Sally. Can I? Okay, my personal hairline, wow, we're on this ridiculous stuff. Thank God. So I found an app.

Over the weekend. I stumbled across it um because I read an article about how the creator of Pinterest has created this new app. And I looked it up and suddenly I spent six hours. And the this app is called Alta, right? Ulta, like A-L-T-E-R. A-L-T-A. Okay, so I think Alta show you on my phone. So what you do, upload your wardrobe into it. Like you take photos. You take photos of your clothes or you take a screenshot of where it's from or the a photo depop, whatever it is.

and you upload the photos and it'll immediately say like White collared top, cotton, whatever it is, and then it prettifies it. So it makes it so that it looks like you're shopping on a website, but it's your closet. And then it like sections it off so I can see all the tops I have, all the jeans I have, all like I can now see my wardrobe on an app clearly and it looks Stunning. And then I can say, make me some outfits. And it'll like AI, create me outfits. It created me an avatar. Wait.

I really hope there's nothing like unethical about this. I can I just say so much. That's amazing. Look at it. It does look like you're shopping. Look, it looks like I'm shopping in my own wardrobe. It's such a nice wardrobe. Mainly it's because I think that's gonna save me from shopping and I know I have a shopping addiction and I think that's gonna

stop me'cause I can now go sho what feels like shopping in my own wardrobe. The dopamine hit'cause I'm trying to stop myself from shopping too. I was doing a no retail quarter for the first quarter of the Yeah it's just not happened at all. That's beautiful. Actually, can I have another personal headline? I've shared one too. So it's a shared one. Oh what is our personal headline? Big talk is back tomorrow. Big talk is back tomorrow. Do you want to reveal what we're doing?

Oh yeah. So when we came back this year, we were like the week that I started back at work was the week that Trump invaded Venezuela. And there was a lot of conversation about the Iraq war and people drawing comparisons to that. And I found that really interesting. And I started looking into how relevant that was. And then I went down a rabbit hole of the Iraq war. And now I yeah. Sarah did like a week of Iraq war. Like Sarah was like, Sarah was just texting me going like

You have no idea what I've been through. I really hope this big talk makes sense to follow because I got so carried away. I was like, I have to start with Bush. I have to explain who he is. And then suddenly I'm writing about the butterfly ballots of the Algor Baby Booksh election. When you listen to this episode, everyone, and also we're dropping both parts on the same day for the first time ever. We're moving forward, dropping big talk all in one day.

Yeah, this was really interesting to go to go back on and just See it all through such a clear timeline. Hopefully a clear timeline. It's nice. Well it's not nice, it's a terrible story. It was it it was a terrible story, but it was really good recording session. Like again, I say every time after every big talk. That was one of my favorites. And it it just was. It was it was great.

Andrew, formerly known as Prince, was arrested last week on his 66th birthday. Wow, cut that cake. That was how did you wake up to this? Did you find out the night before? I wanna say I was incredibly fast to find this out. I was sitting on the couch

Watching Lord of the Rings because I made a deal with my boyfriend that if we watched all the Lord of the Rings we'd be able to watch Twilight last time. We're going to be playing through Twilight. Yeah. Obviously I was s doom scrolling'cause I'm not watching. Lord of the Rings, yeah. I saw it pop up. on Instagram and I immediately shared it to Big Smalltalk.

Then I felt like you know when you feel weirdly smug?'Cause then I get the notifications from like New York Times and this and that and I would like to beat you. Yeah. I literally got home from a wine with friends and I opened my phone and I saw it too and none of the other

uh news alerts had happened yet. So we must have been on the same train of doom scrolling. I text every group chat and all my friends like, you beat the SMH, you beat the New York Times to tell me. And I was like, that's my job. That's our job, actually. So likely most of us listening went to sleep very peacefully on Thursday night. After reading this nine PM breaking headline in Australia, that Andrew Mountbatten Windsor was arrested for suspicion of misconduct in public office.

Now, what police are continuing to investigate is Andrew's dealings, his relationship with convicted child sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. I want to look at the facts and what actually could happen from here. I also just actually before we do all that serious business. I wanna say a moment of silence on the pod for that photo of Andrew in the back of the car. Just high art. Can we have a moment of s when I saw that photo?

I couldn't be silent for a moment about it. Someone put it in the loop? Someone put it in the loop. I'm so glad you raised this. God. I love people go, thank you, Queens, for providing me with my objective news each week. Never claim to do it. Never, ever claim to do it. Awesome moment. Could never be me to just read the facts. It was done in like a the way a paparazzi shot. Like it's just because at first you look at it and you're like, I've kind of seen that same shot, but it's Lindsay Lowen.

And then I'm watching it and I'm going, wait, what is happening? It's actually poor Lindsay. You know, that's oh that's very funny, but poor Lindsay when we look back, right? But God. There is something, and you know, a lot of people have pointed this out. It's a very English thing to have that photo happen. The tabloids of the paparazzi there. Fucking mental. Is mental. But the back like it could not be scarier. I just love it. You know, it's gonna be framed in my my house, I'm sure.

So let's go back to Thursday morning in the UK. So around eight AM, plainclothes officers in an unmarked police car arrived at Wood Farm on Sandringham Estate. At yeah, that morning, local time, Andrew's birthday. Now the Guardian reporting said that Andrew's Norfolk property and former home in the Royal Lodge in Great Winds Park were so. I want to start by saying that the arrest of Andrew is really important for a couple of reasons. The first is

When you arrest someone, you no longer need a search warrant. You no no longer need a magistrate to approve a search warrant for their property. So by police arresting him, they're saying we can go in, we don't need any more. The second is they could have invited him in for an interview, right? But they held him for 11 hours. And so I think that the police action also, I just want to say in a non a less factual way, in a more allegedly way from me.

They absolutely did not have to arrest him on his birthday. I was about to say, do you think they did that for dramatic flight? Totally! There's no need. There was all the need. Because also I think I think this is momentous, right? Like no monarch in modern history has been held by police. Like this is not something that is ha that that happens, right? It's been like four hundred years. The last one would have been like a beheading. Yes. Yeah.

So I think the fact that they chose the morning of his birthday to hold him for eleven hours was to send a clear message, I think. I still and also they made a big deal of the palace not being informed beforehand. Do you believe that? You believe Charles didn't know he was going to be arrested? Oh I think gutsy if not, you know. No, I actually do believe it because I think then there would have been a push.

to, you know, call them into the station or whatever it is. Whereas I think this was a real just go for it mentality. Absolutely. I think yeah, it gave them the rights to search both properties and I think it was really clear in saying this is serious. You're not being invited in for a, you know, a a cordial chat. This is you being held because we do have

really deep concerns about this. Now, he hasn't been charged. Let's also stipulate that. He was let go, it's not on bail or anything. He has just not been charged, which means investigations are continuing. But the allegation here relates to having allegedly shared sensitive information with Jeffrey Epstein during his time as a UK trade envoy between 2001 and 2011. And what the documents in the Epstein Files release partially show, basically, is that Andrew shared investment briefs.

That gave Jeffrey Epstein insight into like investment opportunities, like for example, the reconstruction of Hellman Province in Afghanistan, and also official visits, reports of official visits to countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam. Obviously Andrew denies wrongdoing, duh, no surprises there. What people don't know, and I think is actually missing from a lot of reporting, is the maximum sentence that could be served. It's life in prison. For this chart.

Mm. Now again, that's because if you think about like um you know, this suspicion of misconduct in a in a in a position like this, you can understand that that has far ranging consequences and far ranging thresholds for like how severe the action, the criminal action has been.

So uh no, I don't think that's w what Andrew's staring down, but it's interesting that that is the maximum as well. Uh I also read in the ABC's coverage that the Crown Prosecution Service, which is the body which determines whether someone can be successfully prosecuted under the law, has kind of labeled the following as the criteria. So one is a direct link between the misconduct and an abuse of those powers or responsibilities.

The person must also have willfully neglected to perform their duty and or misconducted themselves to such an extent that it abused the public's trust in the office held. And the final criteria is their actions must have been done without reasonable excuse or justification. So that's reporting from the ABC there. You also might be listening and thinking, what the fuck is a trade envoy? Right? Because it is a strange title. And why was Andrew one?

This was actually opposed by Charles, I believe, but pushed through by Queen Elizabeth II at the time, and by then Prime Minister Tony Blair. Essentially the role you're tasked with. managing the sort of marketing of British trade interests around the world. So you have a lot of networking capacity with businesses, with like leading business figures, with government officials. It is quite a powerful position.

Now police have released Andrew. That essentially means, you know, they probably didn't have enough to charge him at the time, but investigations will continue. What has King Charles said? You know, it's no secret here that I am not someone who is supportive of the monarchy, because I don't believe someone should by their birthright have this kind of position or privilege or power. I also think the roles.

No. I think it's open secrets within it's an open secret within the royal family what Andrew has done, you know, in regards to the allegations of child sexual abuse in relation to Virginia Giffray. But I also thought King Charles put out quite a firm statement on this and I wanna acknowledge that too.

He said, I have learned with deepest concern the news about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full, fair, and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner and by the appropriate authorities. In this, as I have said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. This is the bit that gets me. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course.

As this process continues, it would not be right for me to comment further on this matter. Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all. I think it's what needed to happen. I don't know when I say it's when I say it's a firm statement, I just mean I actually think it's a lot firmer than Queen Elizabeth ever was. I think that's a really interesting part of this discussion because obviously it's pretty hard to believe.

that Queen Elizabeth would not have been aware of what was happening. We know that there have been settlements, there have been discussions, there have been lost positions for Andrew. So the royal family is aware of the allegations against him, and I'm sure there's a lot of information that's been shared internally that we will never know as well. I think the debate is like How far does a mother's protection go? And is this protecting her favorite child or is this protecting the crown?

How do you justify that? Yeah. I think that that's a really important question because I think from Queen Elizabeth's perspective, you know, one of her most famous quotes is like, never complain, never explain. And I think that there's this real kind of you know, protect the crown, protect the monarchy, protect the family. Yeah, like that's very steely from her. Yeah, and it would have you know, I think it's uh what I find hard in that is that Andrew is facing

serious allegations of child sexual abuse and having children trafficked to him for sex, right? That is Virginia Gefrays who tragically died by suicide last year. That is, you know, what she claimed happened to her. And I think that it's kind of devastating again, that a lot of people are devastated that this is also the charge that he's facing, something in like a a trade envoy capacity rather than sexually violent crimes.

And I think that there's a frustration there. But I also see this as a step forward of the police asserting that they are going to investigate Andrew along this avenue at the very least. And I think it is actually in some ways relieving.

that some police force, some government is willing to take action in response to these files while the US just completely buries them essentially. Mm-hmm. Uh there was another statement I wanted to read out, which is from Maria Farmer, who was the first known survivor to report Epstein and Maxwell. Two police?

And she issued a statement which said, Today is just the beginning of accountability and justice brought forth by Virginia Roberts Jaffray, a young mother who adored her daughter so deeply, she fought the most powerful on earth to protect her. She did this for everyone's daughters. Let's now demand all the dominoes of power and corruption begin to fall. Trump obviously said this is very bad and very sad for the royal family.

I think this is a really important one to watch and I understand people's deep frustration with the charges on which he's being sorry, the the claims on which he's being investigated. But I also think we need to just hold our horses for a second and think, okay, if this is the first inroad, that is a major moment too.

It's 2007 again. Hillary Duff sells out arenas and Miley puts the blonde wig back on. Do you know how I like joke occasionally that we're zillenial? You know, like we're like older Gen Z, but we also like played my scene on the family computer. Yeah. This story is I'm millennial this story. Like I'm fully millennial in this story. Hilary Duff coming to Australia is the pop culture story for the whole I know it's not, but it is. And I'm like I was her number one

fan growing up. Like, did you grow up watching Lizzie Maguire? Oh my God. I addresses that cartoon character for book week sort of vibes. It's not a book. I I think I've kind of joked about this on the podcast before, but I don't think I've ever truly admitted the extent. Of what a Disney freak of a kid I was. Um, I used to watch the show and then I developed

an American twang. Oh god. As a child. It's really scary. And I would w I don't know sometimes you can still hear it in things that I say, but I have this slight American twang when I speak. And it was like more prominent in primary school, I would say.

And people be like, Where are you American? Like where did that like And I was way too embarrassed to admit that's because I watched way too much Disney Channel, so I would say like, Oh, I lived in England as a child and then like the accents merge lies. It has been gone. The English and Australian accents merge to become American. You're now a southern gal. I used to believe that I'd be like, girl. You can be doing the Billy Ray Cyrus, like, dang nabbit.

like sweet nibblets and then then you start breaking out into the oh like in between the takes like the reason I would develop the accent too is because I would take their because I wanted to be an actress as a kid so I'd take their monologues. And then I would film myself. Doing the monologue so I and then I would just email them to Disney Channel random email addresses. Can I tell you, this is so embarrassing? I wonder, let's poll how many people did this because I also did.

Camp Orange. Oh yeah, Camp Orange. But my cousin got to like the final stage of Camp Orange applications. But you know what I actually did? I found Kenny Ortega, infamous director of high school musicals email address. And I sent him a handwritten letter and an email.

saying I would like to be in the next film. I used to send and this is why Hillary Duff is near and dear to me. I used to practice the monologue from a Cinderella story. Wow. The one at the other week. The one at the end where she's like I know the guy that sent those emails is somewhere down inside of you, but I can't wait for him. Well is what's the metaphor she says like waiting for him is like waiting for rain in this drought? Useless and disappointing.

Anyway, clearly we love this. There are people listening who are doing that along with us and there are people listening who are going, there's something wrong with them or they're the same person right now. And what you know thing is we're actually we're not alone in the nostalgia because when Hillary Duff announced that she was going to tour Australia with her her shows called Lucky Me.

Millennials went into overdrive. There has been reports of fifty thousand people left in Ticketech Hughes. She sold out all of her shows. She's touring across seven different countries. She must not have known. She must not have known, right? It I think it is hard to predict like who would buy a concert ticket, knowing that a lot of us were like, this was twenty years ago that we were obsessed with this.

I wanted tickets. I didn't get tickets. Yeah, no, neither did I. Like within seconds, you were at the back of the queue. What I found funny is those who didn't score tickets took to social media to share their experiences of the bloodbath. Uh and there was a podcaster called Mickey Burnett who has a podcast called Dreaming with Mickey, which is bedtime stories for kids. Cute. I love that she's using a platform for good. She's got a children's she was like.

Hillary, if you're listening. Yeah, no, genuinely. And she posted, Hey Queen, can you please do Australia a favor and add some more shows? Because it's basically a millennial bloodbath down here right now. Just a bunch of pe Perimonopausal. Perimenopausal mothers and thirty something year old gays who are fighting for their life for tickets at school pickup. To which Hilary personally responded. Making me laugh.

On it, babe. But then that the way she talks is so like L O L. Yeah. Laugh out loud. It is the meme. It is the meme. Alas, uh another show in Melbourne was added. Effective. And then in the midst of all this, and I knew you would love this story, none other than the true Queen of Disney, Miley Cyrus. has uh decided to return to her route.

As Hannah Montana. Famously, I'm not a little monster. I am um a smiler, you know? A smile. I am a smiler. So I could not handle this. Wait, another another quick anecdote that I thought you'd find funny. My mum? Fan of Liz McGuire, let me watch that. Didn't like when I watched Hannah Montana, though. No, I get this. My parents supported my Hannah Montana dream. So when she did Can't Be Tamed,

It was all over for my mother. My mother got the album cover out and said, That is not a Christian woman. And I said, I'm not either. What are you talking about? I'm 12. You, what's funny? Mom, I think, gained respect for her when she came out with the bangers here and mom was like, oh actually wrecking pool's amazing. But when we were younger, she's like, I don't like the way she speaks to her dad on that show.

Extremely funny. Also, to link back to what I was talking about before with the hair dyeing, the reason I've never dyed my hair is because I when I went to Disneyland as a child. I bought the Hannah Montana wig and I put it on and I was so excited and I was so fucking horrified by what I saw and how bad I looked. Can I just say, are we even running segments today? No, no, no. But every single bit has been like

Anyway, I had this singing pen that was it saying best of both worlds and then it went through the wash once and then suddenly it sounded very different. Okay. I'm back in the story. The reason she's doing it is because it is the twentieth year anniversary of Hannah Montana, which is so scary. Oh my

And she's bringing it back as part of a big Disney special to celebrate the show. And for the special, Miley will sit down with none other than Alex Cooper from Call Her Daddy for an intimate look at the long-lasting impact of Hannah Montana and Miley as a character and revisit some of the show's best bits. The bet the first time I ever listened to Call of Daddy was the last time Miley Cyrus was on because I wanted to listen that bad to Miley Cyrus. That's how much of a smiler I am.

Wow, I love her. It will be filmed in front of a live studio audience. We'd also like to attend on March twenty fourth. We could do that. And yeah, pop over. We won't be let in anymore. No. And I just love seeing the photos of her running around New York City recently wearing the Hannah Montana wig. They also said they're gonna revive some of the old sets. So the the closet.

Be on stage as well? I know. It's crazy. And I also just think this all makes sense. Disney, but also Hillary Duff are so smart to be recognizing that nostalgia is just so powerful and it sells like especially in times like these as the world is falling apart it makes sense that, you know, by definition nostalgia is this desire to return to a time that we perceived as better. Recession indicator. A huge recession indicator, but like the ability to revisit your childhood.

It's actually it's bloody beautiful. It is bloody beautiful, Sarah. It's bloody beautiful. And as well for why it's so powerful for millennials, is it's like, wow, let's return to a simpler time but with adult money. Ha ha ha. Okay, Sarah's like, I'm saving money on clothes with this app. So now let's redistribute that wealth to where it deserves to be. No, there's literally there's literally a quote in here from an associate professor from the University of Melbourne, Lauren Roseborn.

It works because you're selling people who have you are selling to people now who have disposable income. People the same age as Hillary Duff thinking to themselves, What's the harm? I have the money. But then there's another flip, like that's being like and even if you don't have the money, that's a fun thing to spend on when life is crumbling. Who's with us?

Right in this week at Big Small Dog underscore pod, do you have enough money to buy Hillary Duff tickets? Neither. Can I also add something as well about the Hillary Duff thing that I saw? So she has a song in the album that's all about not talking to her sister anymore, Hailey Duff, which if you remember from the Toxic Mom drama, I was gonna ask about that. Hayley liked

Ashley Tisdale's post and like went on a play date with Ashley Tisdale's kids afterwards. Like really interesting. Yeah, so she wrote this song about how she's not speaking to her sister anymore. And then when she was asked about it, She told CBS, it's absolutely the most lonely part of my existence not having my sister in my life at the moment. I'm interested to see how that's received, that song. That's really interesting. Anyway, end scene.

Pauline Hansen says there are no good Muslims in a week of discussion about ISIS brides. Here's the story. Okay, let's start this story with Unfortunately, Paul emped into Sky News last Monday. She's the one nation leader and the Queensland Senator who is absolutely surging in the pulse right now. We've talked about it on the pod.

But I think I wanna go back to the statement that she released. That the statement that she made in this video last week. You know, you say, Oh well, there's good Muslims out there. Well, I'm sorry. How can you tell me there are good Muslims? If jihad is ever called, and people must understand this, go and research, go and understand about this, and the ones that will suffer, as those Jews did on that

You know, when they were murdered and slaughtered. And that's what we've got to realise could happen. I didn't want to share this footage. I didn't want to share this audio because I think it is damaging to continue circulating these kind of viral moments that she is building a supporter base through. But I think for the purpose of this podcast, knowing who is listening to it in large part.

What I want to do is go through the actual facts and understand, okay, well, how can we have conversations about this when it comes up with our families? And it's important to know what she has said so that we can respond to it too, which is why I think it's important to actually reiterate the tone and what she's exactly stated. Lots of reporting has then claimed she has subsequently walked back or kind of backtracked in any way on her views in the days following in a series of media interviews.

I don't think that's accurate. I think to describe it as a walk back is a vast underestimation of what she said in subsequent interviews. In the following days, she went on ABC News Breakfast, and this is what she said.

What is your view on Australian Muslims? Do you genuinely believe there are no good Muslims in Australia? If I've offended anyone out there that doesn't believe in Sharia law or multiple marriages or wants to bring the ice Sprides in or people from Gaza who believes in the caliphate and all the rest of it, then I apologize to you for my comment. in general, that's what they want, a royal caliphate.

And I'm not gonna apologise for the fact is I will have my say now before it's too late. I'm at the end of my life, I worried about the future of this nation. I don't want Australia to become like Britain or France. or Canada or Germany or these other countries that regret the number they have allowed in the country that have slowly been taking

control of it. And when we have our politicians, our federal politicians, who are doing every bending over backwards for them because clearly it is the vote and the number of Muslims in those electorates that is determining their decision making. So I won't apologise for any of that. I love this country, I love our culture, I love our way of life.

And a lot of these people don't and would dearly love to change it. But you do believe there are good Muslims in Australia though and that they do enrich our society more broadly, or would you be trying to stop Any sort of Muslim migration to Australia? I want a a vetting process that is going to be m far more stringent and as I said.

I don't believe in in women wearing the burqa. I don't believe in multiple marriages. I don't believe in the taxpayer funding this as well. That's not the Australian way of life. That's not the Australian culture. Again, a really clear tool she's using to try and conflate. Isis with Muslims.

So she's saying, like, if you don't believe in the caliphate, if you blah blah, you know, if I've offended anyone else in outside of that. But what she's actually doing in the process there is blurring things for every listener. So by just listing a series of kind of extreme views. She's just actually reaffirming to the Australian population that might not know what these things are.

to have a direct association of those things with Islam as a faith, right? With m with and it that's problematic in its own way because it's inaccurate. So I think that that's actually again another tool in her tool belt of fear and shame and isolation to try and trick people when it's inaccurate.

And I I wanna just say, like, I know that we call out a lot of stuff in this podcast, you know, when there are racialized remarks, when there's the weaponization of minority communities, like all the time. We we spend a lot of time doing this. This is one of the worst things I've ever seen. I've really n rarely have I seen things this bad in Australian politics. It was, you know, and this is the person that wore the burqa in the Senate. Hey, let's politicize the Bondi terror attack.

you know, to the nth degree and has seen a surge in pogling subsequently because she has done these major these major moments where she's just found headlines. I also want to refer to another one of Pauline Hanson's comments this week about the suburb of Lakemba in western Sydney. It's a large Muslim community living there. And she said

Um, you feel unwanted, you're not wanted to be there in that suburb. And she was really just trying to kind of polarize certain suburbs in Australia um that have large Muslim communities and trying to kind of demonize that they don't accept, welcome or are inclusive of people, you know, white people. But I think actually it would be fair to say why would those communities be accepting of someone as racist as Pauline Hansen?

But actually, what I wanted to refer to is a really positive and amazing, just like such an admirable response from Australia's Special Envoy to Combat Islamophobia, Aftab Malik. In response to Pauline Hansen's comments, he invited her to join him for an iftar meal this Ramadan. Wow. He said she could ask him any question about the Quran, women in Islam, violent extremism, jihad, Sharia law,

Any concern she wants to raise, she can ask him and sit down with him for a meal. We also saw a lot of conservative politicians come out and disagree with. Pauline Hansen. I mean, I'd never thought I'd side with Matt Canavan, a senator from Queensland for the L M P, who said it was un Australian, that she's not fit to lead a political party, which is again The thing is with Pauline Hansen, though, is you do just You do become a little desensitized to her because you're like

It's Pauline Hansen. What I do want to talk about too is this broader context of this story and the other major discussion happening in Australian politics over the last couple of weeks. You've probably heard it referred to as ISIS Brides. What is happening, just put simply, is that there are a group of 34 Australian who have been trapped in Syria for seven years. Now these are the wives, the widows, the children of ISIS fighters. They're now trying to return home.

And the Australian government has refused to repatriate them, which essentially means like refused to help assist bring them home. There was an amazing article published in The Conversation by Kiraloi Ingram from the University of Queensland, who was breaking this down in what I found to be such a comprehensive way. Essentially what she explains in this piece is that in 2014 The Islamic State Terrorist group known as IS or ISIS

Declared a caliphate, which is what you heard Pauline Hansen kind of dog whistling to earlier today in that list of things we heard in that video that you were talking about. Mm-hmm. And a caliphate is essentially an Islamic government led by a caliph, which is kind of understood to be a successor of the Prophet Muhammad. Sorry, ISIS and IS, I just want to clarify. Do not represent the Muslim faith. And any conflation of the two is incredibly problematic. Again, really

Timely as well, because we talk about this a lot in the big talk. Yes, we do. This article kind of sets out that, you know, in 2014 there was this campaign of terror where 53,000 foreigners from 80 countries moved to support and fight for ISIS. and two hundred and seven Australians immigrated at the time to countries like Syria and Iraq. Now, if we fast forward seven years ago, ISIS lost all of its territory.

many of the fighters were placed in these detention camps again in Syria, in Iraq, in these countries. This isn't a new conversation either, because the Australian government did repatriate four women who would be were called at the time ISIS brides in 2022 and 13 of their children who were also in a Syrian camp.

So let's just state clearly, when we're talking about the repatriation of this group of people, we're not talking about the husbands that were ISIS fighters. Some of them are have been killed. We're talking about women and children who are Australian citizens. So the question now becomes

Are children responsible for the actions of their parents? And do they deserve to be repatriated as Australian citizens? But what's been happening in the media of the past couple of weeks is just lots of screaming about like ISIS brides and extremism. But also, the state of play with these thirty-four remaining women that we're speaking about is very different. Because three years ago, a not-for-profit took the government to court.

to kind of force the home affairs department to repatriate these remaining women and children. And that court case lost. It was say the children that took the government to court. They lost. Now there's these thirty four women and children.

who only made it fifty kilometers in their journey back to Australia and were stopped at a detention camp in Syria. You know, reports by Amnesty International say that there's torture, there is mistreatment, there's inhumane conditions in these detention camps that they now remain in.

And the Australian government and Anthony Albanese, our Prime Minister, is saying, We will not help these people. We are not involved. I thought that Anthony Albanese was absolutely ice cold in his media interviews say discussing this. He literally said to the ABC in an interview, My mother would have said, If you make your bed, you lion. Talking about these kids, I just want to say the reason this is such an important story is because

He is saying this in the context of knowing One Nation's polling numbers and knowing how the coalition will attack him. Yes. a lot of layers to this story. It's almost impossible to talk about this.

unless we look at individual cases. Yes. And the only other thing I wanted to mention, I'm really glad you brought that up, is that the ABC actually had this amazing article where they reported on the eleven women who are attempting to travel back to Australia. So it's eleven women and twenty three of their children. And they've written the group of thirty four Australians has been living in camps in Syria since the fall of the so called caliphate. I wanna say it's so called is correct.

And some of those children were actually born behind the razor wire. So they actually have gone and spoken like they they have gone and actually tracked down the stories of these eleven women. And so there are differing circumstances under which each has kind of

be been there, essentially. And I don't want to make generalizations. And I understand that we are also talking about a known terrorist organization of ISIS. But really, again, my question remains, should the kids be held responsible for the actions of their parents?

They are Australian citizens. They have the right to a passport. They have the right to consular assistance. I know why Labour's doing what they're doing. I understand the way the media's positioned this and the fact that it's called ISIS Brides when there's actually 23 kids at the heart of this story. It's a really complicated discussion.

It's been a long time coming. America's next top model finally gets its reality check, and so does Tyra Banks. Now you've probably already heard of this documentary and seen the clips uh from this very explosive new show. It's called Reality Check Inside America's Next Top Model. It's a three-part docuseries. It's on Netflix. I binge watched it last night and wrote a crazy amount of notes while watching. It is

fascinating to watch. Um, but what it does is it revisits the best and worst of one of the most successful TV shows ever. Uh and it was created by supermodel Tyra Banks and it aired from 2003 to 2018. It has Tyra in it, Jay Manuel, who was the coach, Ken Mock, the executive producer, Nigel, who was the hot photographer, Jay Alexander, the runway coach, and many other contestants, all in this docuseries.

I before we get into it, I wanna just look into Tyra Banks a little bit and her career because I do think that's quite foundational to understanding the original inception of this show. So Tyra started modeling at just fourteen years old and she was rejected countless times. before she landed an agency. She said there was a door that was locked because I was a young black model. Four of them told her we already have a black girl.

Despite that, she pushed through and she went on to walk for international runways. She became the first black woman on the cover of GQ, as well as sports illustrated swimsuit issue. She was also one of the first black models to sign with Victoria's Secret Angel. She became a household name. I have to give her her flowers when we talk at the beginning here about what she did for representation.

in the fashion industry at that time. She also had a very successful acting career. She was in the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. She was in higher learning. She was obviously in life size with a very young Lindsay Lowen. Sheoed in the Hannah Montana movie, just to bring it back. She absolutely did. One of the greatest scenes of that film. She was in Coyote Ugly. Yeah. Iconic.

And then it was two thousand and three when she created, produced and hosted America's Next Top Model. And what that did was it really brought the entire modeling industry into prime time reality two thousands television. And when you look at why she did it, she her quotes are, I wanted to make something that fought against the fashion industry.

She said, What if I created a show where you saw what it looked like to become a model? Not all white and skinny, but with all the differences and different types of beauty. She then went and teamed up with Ken, who said in the doco that he's the executive producer and he said that he just thought it was gonna be a vanity project from her. Also interesting. I don't know if many people picked up on this, but he pretty much implied that he thought that she was gonna be dumb because she's a model.

And I think that speaks a lot to the stigma the time. He then jumped on board. They got knocked back from pretty much every major network until the very last one. And then she formulated a team with the Jays and Nigel and Janice, who was one of the original soup models. She was a judge and she was like evil on the show. There's no other way to put it. She was there as the antagonizer, one hundred percent.

But the show was a massive success. It ran for twenty-four seasons across fifteen years, launched multiple n international spin-offs. Obviously loved Australia's Next Top Model. I watched that. and became like a defining force of two thousands pop culture and now nostalgia. But if you then recall when the pandemic hit and everyone was binge watching T V

America's next top model started trending again. Everyone just collectively was taking to TikTok or talking about like, wait, do do we all remember how fucked up that show was? And it was like everyone was like seeing it through this new lens of like How the fuck did that get to air? And it is like it is crazy the stuff they did on this show. And like I think it was a long time coming for it to have this.

reckoning. And Tyra says at the start of the doco, like it overnight turned from something that everyone loved to something that everyone then hated. And she agreed to be a part of this to give her side of things. But I also think it's important to know that she got given no approval power.

No questions in advance and no compensation. And the series executive producers said that she would only be able to watch it when the broader public would. Before I get through the big conversation points in this. For those who haven't watched or haven't seen the DOCO, I've not watched it. Because I just like dot pointed some of the most diabolical moments of the show, just to sum up what exactly we're talking about here.

They did a photo shoot that was a race swap. Like their race. Full-on blackface. That's fucked. Truly one of the most insane photo shoots you would ever See, and at the time Tyree was like, I didn't think it was controversial, like it was my way of showing the world that everything was beautiful. But like, what?

And then what's crazier is they did it again. Six cycles later. Like six seasons later they did it again. They called them they don't do seasons, they do cycles. Um sorry about that. Yeah. But um yeah, they did it again. Wow. And then they realized it was wrong. She goes, looking back on a twenty twenty lens, I can see it was wrong. They did a homelessness shoot.

Where they shot in front of real homeless people. It was like dramatic photos of the girls and they're like, wow, I love how I can see the sadness in your eyes. Like, what? Like absolutely insane. They posed with dead carcasses. They had hypothermia and like medical emergencies as girls failed to eat and were fainting. They wore beef panties. Tyra fake faint. You might have seen this meme. She like fake feints and everyone's like, Oh my she's like, I just

I'm just feeling really unwell and then collapses in front of them and then goes, Today we're gonna learn about acting. Let's do a commercial. I've seen this real. Posing with pigeons, haunted houses, uh, which was like genuinely terrifying. It's like girls being terrified. in dim lit houses and being like, smise, now smile like ten inch stilettos on r on the most difficult runways, walking on water, a dangers of smoking photo shoot.

Fishnets with them like tied in fishnets on boats with real fish in there. That's kind of activist. Crime scene victims. What? They were all given backstories, like they were strangled to death, pushed off a building, one girl was shot in the head. And they did that because the producers knew that her mother had been shot in the head before and was now paralyzed. Ken, the executive producer, that was one he conceded on, regrets that one.

But they didn't regret a lot. What was happening? Like the seven deadly sins, where they gave gluttony to a girl that they thought was overweight, and then in the next photo shoot gave her an elephant. What? It's fucking wild. Also insane on the like the girls fainting because of being skinny and telling the girls, you know, this is just the fashion industry and this is what you've gotta do. When like Tyra became so much of her

Uh monologue was being like kiss my fat ass like on her TV show and like standing up like models don't have to be sticked in. That's like how the show started. Like how did we get there so fast? Because it got ratings, right? Like You know, some were more forgivable, like no they weren't, but like the pendul they had like pendulums on a runway. Oh, and they got hit. I haven't seen this real yet. Fucking crazy. Like w hamster wheels walk on water.

And then there was the makeovers. They closed someone's gap tooth. They had an actual medical procedure on the show to close someone's gap tooth after she said She really liked her gap tooth and didn't want to do it. And then they ultimately that they would kick her off the show if she didn't do it. What was fucking crazy about that as well, few seasons later, they widened someone's gap tooth. Can you imagine watching that? Being like, Are you fucking kidding me?

woman. There was one girl, Ebony, from season one. She was the only black girl on that season. They shaved her head and not well because they didn't know how to handle her hair. And then they went on to call her skin ashy. Also, Tyra Banks is a woman of colour. And that's what they're saying in the docker.

contestant speaks and was like, I thought I was gonna get a level of support from her at least. Like that is unbelievable. We have to also talk about Shandy. She was a r a young model who was on one of the earlier seasons. She worked at Walgreens. She did really well in the competition. She made it to Milan. It was her first time overseas. There was a bunch of male models that the producers invited over to their house to like have dinner with the girls.

She hadn't eaten all day. She's not wasn't used to drinking. She was super young, far away from home, got blackout drunk, got in a hot tub. The producers got them all in a hot tub together. Ended up having sex with one of the male models while she was clearly like incoherent. then the show framed it as she cheated on her boyfriend as opposed to was assaulted and they filmed the whole thing. It is frightening to watch. They then

Didn't let her have a phone. She wanted to go home. She was distraught the next day. She had a boyfriend. She had a boyfriend. They then told her she couldn't go home. Then they told her she couldn't have a phone. Then suddenly she could have a phone, but they had to they could she could only call her boyfriend if they recorded it.

She's having an absolute like heartbreaking hyperventilating crying conversation with her boyfriend who calls her an awful name and she just keeps saying, like, please let me go home. Like it is Really, really, really difficult to watch. And when they asked Tyra, like, and what about Shandy? She goes, It's really difficult for me to talk about production. That's not my area. Actually it is. Ken defended it by saying, we filmed everything. It was documentary style. It's so

diabolical. Yeah. You really can't. Um and I think there's a few clear discussion points in it. One is that like the early years of America's Next Top Model. Is a case study on how two thousand's reality TV became such an ethical disaster? I think in that it's like this strayed so far from the original point of the show. There was one point that Tyra even compared the show to Fear Factor.

And I think that's really funny that she unin unintentionally summed up the fucking problem. Yeah. It that's not without taking any responsibility, but almost like kind of making herself out to be a victim of that in many ways too. Yeah. I I wanna read this from the cut, they said. This gets to the heart of the issue. Banks wants credit for inventing the show to fight against the fashion industry.

But what she was actually doing was teaching the girls how to thrive within an oppressive system like she did. That's a different thing altogether. Oh, that is like one of the core arguments in feminism is that a lot of the time you're just teaching women how to like rise up through the ranks in this system rather than actually

You know, break it apart. Another really big part of this was uh there was a lot of deflecting. It was a master class in deflection watching this. But was it? It wasn't effective, clearly. It wasn't that effective, but There was an element and argument in like, you know, as the ratings soared, it's kind of on the audience because they were loving it and like the audience demanded it. You know, Tyra says, we made it because they wanted it.

I think I will give credit that there is a grain of truth to that, obviously. The show was huge. Well, I I think if they'd stopped doing that and decided to make an ethical show the next season, no one would have watched. Like I think that's true. Where do you go from there? I think that's what they're saying. Like you had to keep upping the ante to be able to keep audiences hooked. How do you grow a show? And it gets you know, it does follow that fear factor element.

And I will say, like, even as a you know, a small child watching it, I maybe I would get a sadistic thrill out of Are they gonna make them pose with a hungry lion next? No, but it's like shows like The Biggest Loser as well, where like shame and fear, you know, are sold to us, packaged up as like high value programs that we then watch and we are literally just projecting our own shit onto those contestants all the time. And that's why it works because it it connects with something deeply in us.

And it's just a really evil cycle. I agree. But I o uh but it's ultimately like it's that's such a cop out to say It's a cop out from the producers, but I it's this cycle of like There are producers, there are hosts, there are advertisers, there are networks, there are auto-mini people.

Everyone is complicit in some way, but to say that the audience is as complicit as the creators is not fair. No, it's not fair. And it's also like you cannot position yourself as the architect of the show, as the mastermind, as the expert. expert editor. These are all, you know, quotes, the visionary who built a global franchise and then turned around and say, you only did it because like the audience forced your hand. I don't think you can claim the genius and then outsource the guild.

Great quote. Thanks. The other part of this is do you believe Tyra is sorry? I really think she started with good intentions. It opened doors, it diversified representation, but I think people got drunk off the power pretty quick. I also think happened. From my perspective I go, Yeah, Tyra is absolutely responsible in many ways for this but I also think as the woman of colour hosting the show that did start off with good intentions, I believe.

I think it's also very easy for people to lump all of the burden on her when there's a lot of people producing and creating that show that are pushing contestants. Yes, Tyra is playing a fucking huge role in that. But I don't think it's fair that we'd lump it all with her either. There is so many people to answer for this show. But I think what's difficult with Tyra and with Ken Mock and really everyone in there is there was

so much shifting of blame because I don't even think they've come to terms with it. There was an inability to acknowledge the extent or only concede on some things. There also was like an irony as like As the show became increasingly more chaotic as they kept trying to get these ratings and outdo themselves. They fired the three the people she started this with, the Jays and Nigel. Yeah. And then, you know, the network turned around and asked her.

As well. No one really's kind of that thing where you do a lot of things against your own ethics in the pursuit of retaining your position and then you you lose it anyway. If I think Tyra Banks is both victim and perpetrator in this, as someone who's was a model, who went through the industry, who faced the same pressures. This is a cycle. They are both. Yeah, I agree. I I also wonder like how this impacts Tyra's career and legacy. I I mean, she lives in Sydney now.

Have you thought about that? You should put her on Sport Talk. Ask her these questions. I would love to I don't know if she'd answer. I mean, she's in Sydney. She is in Sydney. An unexpected twist. Uh she's the founder of Smise and Dream, which is an ice cream brand. Also, uh something I want to add at the end of this.

She's always said that she wanted to bring the show back. It was with the big bosses, but she's like willing to do it. And in the doco, she actually says, I feel like my work is not done. You have no idea what you plan for cycle twenty five. Cycle twenty f so scary these cycles. Sounds like my start us up. Go watch one episode. Please just watch Okay. I think you have to watch one episode and then watch the DOCO.

I'm a big fan of Eileen Goo. Best headline you've ever got. Thank you. As the Winter Olympics enthusiast, I'm really excited to talk about this story and Eileen Goo. Correspondent, Courtney correspondent Sarah Jane Addams is in the sea. Did you see the news reporter that was like

Uh drunk quite intoxicated. I love her love. I love her so much. We were watching the clip of it like two nights ago and meat Boltonium was going, God, she's really plastic. She's and she and I was like, It's kind of awesome. Good good for her. Too funny. So You may have seen Eileen. She's American Chinese, but she represents China at the Olympics. And she's popped up this week with a now viral video where she clapped back at a reporter after she took home two silver medals.

And was asked in the press conference afterwards if she saw them as two silvers gained or two goals lost. I can't wait to play this clip. Do you see um these as two silvers gained or two goals lost? I'm the most decorated free skier female free skier in history. I think that's a answer in and of itself. Um How do I say this? Winning a medal at the Olympics is a life changing experience for every athlete.

Doing it five times is exponentially harder because every medal is equally hard for me, but everybody else's expectations rise, right? And so the two medals lost situation uh To be quite frank with you, I think it's kind of a ridiculous perspective to take.

Um I'm showcasing my best skiing. I'm doing things that quite literally have never been done before. And so I think that is more than good enough. But thank you. I there is so much about like I I think the first thing is A lot of athletes that you watch respond interview questions, they are not particularly good in front of the media. Eileen is fucking phenomenal. She the laugh, the immediacy of the laugh, and also the kindness in her tone.

There is such a mixture of elements here that make that the perfect response. But I just want to say she remains friendly and kind and warm, but also really firm, really well respected. Like I just go, you are going in for this interviewer in such a way that is both Plain and direct.

But is also maintaining like a level of warmth that I think is actually really admirable. She was just perfect. I'm gonna play another clip because I feel like you'll find this fascinating. This isn't supposed to be a a rude question, but do you think before you speak? Because you answer questions so quickly and so comprehensively whether it's about geopolitics or your sport or aerodynamics, like can you take us into your brain? Thank you, Charlotte. That's very kind. Um oh man.

Do I think I think overall I'm just a pensive person. Like I'm a very introspective I'm an introspective young woman. Like I spend a lot of time in my head. Um and it's not a bad place to be. I I journal a lot. I break down all of my thought processes. I think I apply a very analytical lens to my own thinking and I kind of modify it because it's so interesting. You can control what you think. Like you can control how you think and therefore you can control who you are.

And especially as a young person, like I'm 22, so with neuroplasticity on my side, I can literally become exactly who I want to be. How cool is that? Like, how empowering is that, right? And so the fact is I get to become every day the kind of person that me at age eight would revere. Like I would be obsessed with me today. Are you kidding? I would love me. And I think that's the biggest flux of all time that you can have like little younger you be proud of you today. And so

I guess for me it's like I yes, I spend a lot of time in my own head. Yes, I think a lot. But it's not really like in an egotistical kind of way. It's in like a tinkering like a scientist kind of way. I'm always like trying to modify. I'm trying to think how can I be better. How can I approach my own brain the way that I approach my craft of free skiing um so that I can be better tomorrow than I was today. Amazing. She's 22. It's just, it's just, this is exactly what young women need to hear.

But she like what? That would that answer. I respect it so much. She answers the question. She doesn't take it to this weird like she's not being like I manifest. She's literally saying I'm a reflective person. And I have the capacity to control how I show up in the world and I'm considered. And and the fact that she's only 22 years old. And I will say since that uh press conference, she's won gold in the half pipe. Go off.

Quite tragic though, she did have a news that was broken to her right after the event, right after she won gold that her grandmother had passed away, and so she came to the press conference and it was really Teary, but now that I I know of Eileen, I've really deep dived into her a little bit. And, you know, this is not her first time in the spotlight. She is mega famous, both in China and the US. Uh, she's larger than life.

She's also model stunning, genuinely. Oh, she is beautiful. She has a face card. And like she's been on the cover of Sports Illustrated. She's modeled for Victoria's Secret. She's walked Milan runways. Like this woman is insane, yeah. But she's also considered pretty controversial and this was a an excerpt from the New York Times that explains it, but it's basically around the fact that she chooses to represent China over the US.

She's American born, American raised, American college student who listens to American music, Metro Boomin, ASAP Rocky, and even Blues Legends BB King. While she competes for the Chinese flag. She's been called a traitor by a former MBA player, Inez Canter Freedom, and labelled ungrateful and shameful by conservative pundits for her twenty nineteen decision to leave the United States team and compete for her mother's native country.

She says she's been attacked on her college campus, Stanford University. A quote from Eileen. I've gone through some things as a twenty-two-year-old that really no one should ever have to endure ever. So essentially she made the decision at fifteen to represent China. Yeah. Seven years ago. Yeah. People say that it's an ethical dilemma for her to represent China because China has been called out. by Human Rights Watch and many other watchdogs for denying freedom of speech.

And for persecuting anyone who criticizes the government. And and I understand that, but I would also say human rights watchers also flagged the US. I was gonna I understand that twenty nineteen was probably a different time for this discussion. I mean Trump was still the president at that time too. I was gonna say, but from that time as well. Yeah, but I I think she made the decision at fifteen. I like the fact that she's so confident in herself.

because of what she would have faced in in in making this decision. JD Vance uh called her out on Fox News recently and said, I certainly think that someone who's grown up in the United States of America who has benefited from our education system, from the freedoms and liberties that make this country a great place.

I would hope that they want to compete with the United States of America. To which she responded, I'm flattered. Thanks, JD. That's sweet. Amazing response. Again, positive, not putting him down, not engaging in a fight, just responding. She went in in a press conference to also off the back of that agree that she does believe that she's become a punching bag for US political debate. She said so many athletes compete for different countries.

People only have a problem with me doing it because they kind of lump China into this monolithic entity and also they just hate China. So it's not really about what they think it's about and also because I win. Like, if I wasn't doing well, they probably wouldn't care as much.

And that's okay for me. People are entitled for their opinions. I was genuinely going to say that they wouldn't give a shit, but it's because she's winning gold and they want to claim her. Yeah. She is a commodity to them. And also she's making millions. She's made she's made such a difference to this sport. Like parks are genuine seeing uptick in the amount of little girls. It's amazing. It's it's like wriggly tangible. People are showing up to meet her. She is such a fan base.

And there was huge financial benefit in China. She says she's been asked about that. She says that wasn't really something she considered at the time. Her whole thing and her through line has always been that she wants to make this sport as big as as big as she can, that she wants to inspire little girls. There was a quote that I found interesting where she said, America had so many idols, China didn't have that. I also just think maybe if Americans were more welcoming of immigrants

There'd be more of an argument to want to, you know, actually engage as an American. But you know, it's like she doesn't feel welcome right now, probably. Fascinating story though. And I love her.

We are now at the QA for this week's episode. And this week's question comes from listener Joanna, who was asked about this landmark social media addiction trial and what's happening with it. Now fill me in. I just was about to say like I feel like this story

in five years ago would have been the biggest story in the world. And I just feel like now it's like the tenth thing on the list, which is why I haven't got to it yet. But I know it's gonna be unfolding over the next few weeks. So hopefully we'll have capacity for a full segment on it. But I just wanted to kinda go through the top line of what this trial's about. So

This is happening in the Los Angeles Superior Court at the moment, and it's kind of being viewed as like the big tobacco moment for social media. And essentially, there is a 20-year-old woman who's the plaintiff in this case known as KGM. And she is claiming that her use of Instagram and YouTube made her depression and suicidal thoughts worse? And she's started using Instagram at the age of nine. And essentially she is taking these big tech owners to court.

Arguing that these platforms are purposefully addictive for children to keep them on the app and that they have, you know, major mental health outcomes because of the addictive element. And so what's happened is we've seen Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Meta, who has had to actually face up to the jury in this trial. The Instagram CEO, Adam Massori, has had to do the same thing. And so there's some really interesting elements coming out in this case.

And what's being argued by the plaintiff and it could open thousands, if not tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of millions, potentially of new lawsuits if it is successful. Because usually content is protected under US federal law. So you can't argue that a piece of content individually has harmed you, like Meta's harmed you through that capacity, because it's not really their responsibility as the platform to take, you know, the onus of the liability for every single post.

But instead that the platform by design is addictive, which again, you know, it's so funny. It feels like saying water is wet. The platform is of course addictive. Instagram has so many features. Facebook has so many features to keep you on the platform, on YouTube, the algorithmic features, the infinite scroll, like there are so many things.

And so really as this trial unfolds, what we're seeing is a lot of parents alleging that their children have been harmed or even died, um, because of social media outcomes, whether it be hacking and sex tortion, you know, threatening threatening children, um, children who have, you know,

engaged in really harmful mental health practices as the result of social media, which has led to these outcomes of, you know, extreme harm or death. There's just a lot of different allegations that are coming out through the process of this court case.

Um, and really there's been some key moments already where, you know, the Instagram CEO, Adam Massori, has said, you know, during his testimony that he think it's important to differ he thinks it's important to differentiate between clinical addiction and problematic use. So undermining that there's a clinical issue that i Instagram and Facebook feed into.

And that he said that the platform is trying to really find the balance between being as safe as possible, but censoring as little as possible. And I think that also kind of negates the question, which is like, well, are there addictive elements and mechanisms rather than i are you censoring people and what's the balance there? But Mark Zuckerberg has testified. And again, we know that in 2024 he faced a Senate hearing where he was questioned about.

you know, the safety for children of the platform. He apologised to parents at the same time, but again, they haven't done a lot to make tangible change, which is why the Australian social media ban, which is a world first, has been such a prominent conversation in a lot of, you know, EU countries lately who are trying to follow suit now.

Trial will continue unfolding. You know, we'll have the head of I don't think the head of YouTube is set to testify now, but there will be other major executives who are part of this. And the outcome is truly so important, set a precedent for what other parents can sue these platforms for in future. Fascinating to follow. Thank you so much for listening again this week. If you want, you can tap the bell.

And we have big talk back tomorrow morning and small talk on Thursday, and otherwise we will see you next Tuesday. And my take is the Dome Fest, 29th of March in Sydney.