Are You Dressing for You or the Algorithm? With Maggie Zhou

Snap production. This is not how our ancestors lived. This is so this is not normal to the human condition. No. This sort of speed, this sort of want and desire that can be fulfilled so suddenly. This is so, so new to us. Yeah. And It feels like a head spin because it is one.

I find the conversations around trend prediction so funny because a lot of comment sections will read, Oh thank goodness, now I can wear this. But it's like, you can wear whatever you want whenever. You don't have to wait for somebody, especially some random on TikTok to tell you what you can and can't wear. This is Smalltalk.

Quite a news headline, but it is what the girls are talking about. And today I am joined by Maggie Zhao. Welcome! Thank you so much for having me on Small Talk today. I'm so excited to have you on. I have, okay. To read out, you have been a self-described word scribbler and slow fashion wearer. You're a Melbourne-based writer, you're an editor, you're a content creator, you're the co-host of the Culture Club podcast. You've written for pretty much

Everyone? Editor at large for Broad Street, Melbourne, uh, The Guardian, L, A B, C. Well done. Well thank you. Thank you. I do love a verbal resume. Yeah. No, I love doing this to guests too. And I will say the at at the top, the w the self described word scribbler.

I feel a little bit mortified. I fear I wrote that as a teenager. That's very tumbler coded. And what do you mean? Word scribbler. Word scribbler? No, I love it. And I also It's so funny you bring up Tumble already,'cause that's genuinely something I wanted to even talk about today when like Even just the way you've obviously started your career and launched it in this digital age. And I have seen you've like referenced Tumblr before as like.

the education tool of those early days. You were a Tumblr girl. I was a Tumblr girl. I have grown up on the internet like you wouldn't believe. Even pre Tumblr, my first kind of foray into the online space was A one direction Twitter. And I'm thinking was that Twenty eleven, twenty twelve. Like it was

I had a one direction stan account. Oh, a hundred percent. And don't all the best media girlies No, they do. They do. They teach you proper like PR coms writing skills, I swear to God. No, it completely makes sense. I it's kind of sad that Tumblr's not a thing anymore. Like and look, it was problematic for sure. We're like, you know, elephant in the room. Yes. But I will say, so much of um that self-exploration of like what I found cool and what my personal style I wanted to be.

Poetry, songs, whatever I was aiming for as like a 14-year-old. I have so much time for her. Like, yeah. That little website really was. An incredible place to play. And again, really not disqualifying the terrible aspects of it. No, the horrors obviously, but there were so many. But in the same way, it was a place for us to experiment to see what we like to

kinda figure out what music, words, fashion, as you're saying. And I had a lot of fun there. It was it was it was a lot of fun. But like also how has it been being on that sort of the frontier of a a career that's like it's like the building a plane while it's flying. Like it just keeps changing the digital landscape too. Mm-hmm. I feel like it's one of those questions where you just can't predict it anymore and it is

always changing and that's the nature of the beast. If you think it's gonna stay stagnant, like the media world, digital media, obviously you know this as well. Um you just can't. Unpredictability is part of it. Yeah. And it's so it's so funny even like reminiscing on the Tumblr days. And I think that is when, you know, a lot of journalists or creators our age did get their start on

Tumblr, but then also I guess Pinterest Now or whatever it's been. God, there were so many. It was like Ask FM, like w all this like other torturous stuff, but Now like we could never have predicted what was to come.

with like the way Instagram would evolve from being a photo sharing platform between family and friends to like a career in itself. And then TikTok that is this like moving beast of trends and algorithms to keep up with. And that's kind of what I wanted to talk a little bit to you about today was like keeping up with that and how to and when not to. Because like even when I look at TikTok, like we have A a trend that could be created on a Tuesday and a dupe delivered to your home on a Friday.

And that is like a bit of a mind fuck, to be honest. This is not how our ancestors lived. This is so this is not normal to the human condition. No. This sort of speed, this sort of want and desire that can be fulfilled so suddenly. This is so, so new to us. Yeah and it feels like a head spin because it is one. It is. I actually think that's like the first. Like we're not supposed to be keeping up with this. Um but I I mean like it's also crazy that they're all happening

simultaneously, like I remember when Clean Girl Aesthetic was still going strong, which and then like mob wife at the same time. And you're like, what wha what am I meant to be doing right now? What and then I mean, what has been some of your favorite or like the ones you found the most interesting out of those trends? And I will say as well, this micro trend conversation, especially um it's rampant on TikTok.

Dare I say, is it slowing down a little bit? Because I feel like its peak was a few years ago. Perhaps that was when I was working full time in women's media, but that was like every goddamn day and oh my god. I feel like one of the trends that has stuck with me is the tomato girl aesthetic. Do you remember this one? Oh my gosh, yes. Because this one What even was that? I know. Tell me about it. This is a thing, when you look back with ret in

When you look back in hindsight, you're like, What was actually happening? Because This trend really blew up and he wasn't just seeing tomato print on clothing, which it definitely was, but it expanded to all facets. There was candles that looked and smelt like tomatoes. There was like books about tomatoes. It really was like every part of your life you can commercialized to um picture tomatoes. Mm-hmm. It it

And like, okay, I feel like I should say I need to admit on the outset of this plea I am a marketer's dream for this stuff. And I can have the self awareness. Like I I know that I think Maybe it's because in the last couple maybe in the last two years or so I've started on a journey of trying to find like personal style and finding confidence in that. Um, but trying to do that at a time like this is been a really interesting experience.

Because I do kind of foray into all of these because and s and you know, see what works and see what suits. Um but it's also made it a lot harder because every time you feel like you've got somewhere with it, um It's now um party grunge is back and I'm like, I've literally just mastered a slick back bun. Like Oh my god. And I someone said in one of my comments when I did a trend prediction of the

for this year they were like sleepbacks might be out and I was like, But what are we gonna do then? What am I literally supposed to do then? No, I What were your trend predictions, Alec? Uh some of them for this year, um you kinda mentioned kind of like the pastel grunge aesthetic and colour wise, we're looking at like aquamarines and teals. I think I'm seeing plaid but like plaid shirt kinda like

That Western aesthetic, but continued. Mm-hmm. Things like this. Um we've seen it's been the summer of the casual heel. So seeing how Wedges are back. Wedge is a bag. Wedges a back. Yeah, there's a lot to love, but it's a thing of like

I find the conversations around trend prediction so funny because a lot of comment sections will read, Oh, thank goodness, now I can wear this. But it's like, you can wear whatever you want whenever. You don't have to wait for somebody, especially some random on TikTok, to tell you what you can and can't wear.

Well, I think this is what we like fight with within ourselves because I love following creative content creators that are able to like maximize on these moments and see what they do with it. And I love following how they interpret trends or how they stick to like develop their own style. But it's like trying to figure out that ability to put a distance between it. Um to know that you can also just enjoy that as like an art form online and not have to

try and incorporate it in your wardrobe immediately. I love this because to me actually this might be an unpopular take, but trends are neutral. Yeah. Right? There's a lot of hatred towards trends and what they represent, which I definitely resonate with because I am someone who advocates for slow fashion. But the yet at the end of the day, trends are something that are representative of the mass. It's something that's popular at a certain time, right? Yeah. And that's fine.

The thing is, it's about how we partake in it. And you hit the nail on the head, Sarah, of like you don't have to buy in and wear every trend, but you can actually play with it. I love, yeah, exactly, watching people style it, even just seeing other people interact with trends. It could be looking at your own spin on it. So perhaps you're just taking a certain color from a trend and seeing how you already have these items. Like you don't a trend doesn't mean you have to go shop for an item.

Yeah, and I think this might be the disconnect sometimes because You are being sold at when when it happens, but I think what's really the way I try and think of it now is like Some of these creators they and they're they're so it's it is like art. Well if you're if you're good at fashion and you have an eye for that and you're able to pull looks and and maximize on trends, like not everyone has that gift. Like it's really cool to watch.

Um, but it's also being like they are brands, like they're a personal brand walking around, they're funded by other brands, and That's their job. It doesn't have to be your no one's paying you to do that. Maybe true. Maybe they are. Maybe they are eventually. Maybe that's something you wanna do. But you think of it like a career decision and less b like You and your everyday life has to have to do it because that's falling for the

the the marketing trap of it, I guess. And at the end of the day, like whether you're even that online yourself or you're that interested in fashion, I do wanna reiterate that Everybody is part of the fashion system. If you wear clothes, so nudists listening, this does not apply to you, but like if you wear clothes, you are making decisions every single day about how you're partaking in the fashion industry.

And that means that you have power, you have choice, you have autonomy there and I actually think it's great that people reflect on how they're participating because the truth is you are already.

Yeah. Mm. Yeah. What tell us a little bit about your personal style journey as well and like how'cause you you seem so Like you've you've you're confident, you've figured this out, but was that a bit of a journey?

Yeah. And even as you say like you figured this out, I'm like, however It is a journey, that's a thing. I think My personal style has always been really like heavily reliant on secondhand clothes and I've loved in my teen years going op shopping and then that's how I think I've really figured my style out.

a lot of trial and error and I do think op shopping is a really good avenue for that because it allows you to play with such a like diverse array of styles, see what works, see what doesn't. I would say now, I wish I was someone who had like a personal style that you could say in a sentence. Like Have you heard of the three words Alison Um Bernstein method?

You know what? I w as you were saying this, I was remembering this, but like do remind me of it. Because this is a thing. I haven't done it myself. But it's essentially encapsulating your style into three words, and these are words that encompass what it's like already as well as what you want it to be like.

she has a proper structure through it. So definitely research more if you're interested. But I'm like, oh, I don't know if I can narrow it down that much. I would say I love like a preppy style, I love vintage styles and I like something that's a bit more masculine as well. But It varies. It varies and I think um The other thing that's interesting about personal style is you're you're trying to figure out your aesthetic and that's almost different to

styling as well. Like in the way that I've also had to figure out my body type and like what suits features. And and sometimes when you're following these like mass produced trends, you know, when micro skirts brin. Yeah. I was like, fuck. Like this doesn't look the same on me as it's gonna look on one of my friends. But then there would be another trend that suits me. And like i so much of that figuring out when you're younger is um

not just following and like actually paying attention to what suits you. And it's interesting that you bring in the aesthetics of it. And of obviously fashion is such a visual platform. But I think personal style to me is also a values based thing. And I'm not just talking about ethics and sustainability, but I'm talking about why do you dress the way you dress? What do you actually want to achieve? So you were speaking about like

body types and essentially, you know, things that might quote unquote look flattering. I don't want to put words in your mouth, right? No. But it could also be like How do I want others to perceive me? Like what do I want to project into the world? So everybody's got a different reasoning of how they dress. It could be purely for comfort. Like I wanna be the most comfortable

Yeah. Version of myself every single day. But it could also be like I wanna express my like creativity onto the world. But you don't have to. Like all of these are choices. Yeah. Like fashion tells us I think there's like one way to be, and that's usually wear what's trendy wear what looks quote-unquote good on you but

You don't have to ab oblige by that to that. No. You can also change your aesthetic on the weekly if you wanted. Like but that doesn't mean you have to go out and change your whole wardrobe on the weekly. One hundred percent. And that I think is that's where I think we get we get stuck.'Cause it seems like such an easy way of like, oh, they've put a link in bio to exactly their entire outfit. And therefore I can go and buy that. And I don't have to and then I and therefore I am trendy. Like

And then the cycle that it puts you into because the fashion industry is so naughty. Naughty. It preys off people's insecurities, especially women's, and it puts you into this endless cycle of feeling behind. Yeah. Because once you jump on a trend, the way that the trend cycle goes is that it will disappear, right? So if you're always trying to chase that newest thing, you're always going to be in that constant cycle of chasing, which makes you not feel good. No, it's also

Expensive. My question to you when talking about also just how expensive everything is, is like, how do you suggest for people to start to retrain their brain? So that the value of a garment doesn't come with that like instant gratification of buying it. Oh, there's so much here. There's so much here. I think the first one, which is the truth that people don't like to hear that much, is that clothes shouldn't actually be this cheap.

All clothes are handmade. They all touch human hands. And the fact is we've been trained to expect a five dollar bargain bin at like the shopping center. And trust me, I was there. I used to think twenty dollars for a t shirt was expensive. And I've had to do some big unlearning because we see these brands, especially now with She Yin and Timu out in the world, we know that we can buy something for$2, which means that

clothes that are produced more ethically, more sustainably, feel like an investment. There should be an investment. But not even just like an investment like ridiculous. Yeah. We've I and and I know this is how guys I'm someone who frugal, who can be stingy. Yeah. And it is a, I think, a rewiring of being like, hang on.

It takes a lot to produce a garment and s we just don't see that. And that's purposeful. And to produce it ethically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is what you're what you'd hope you're paying for in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of that like ridiculousness outrage. Sometimes comes from the fact that Things that aren't ethically made or haven't had the same level of craftsmanship in it are being marketed as

Fifteen times what they should be. Yeah. Um, because they can. Yeah. And it's it's a hard industry to so And it's a h fashion is hard to decipher and it's purposely, I think, opaque because They don't like people don't want to know and people don't want other people to know how things are actually made, the cost of that, like how materials are gathered.

Um, because at the end of the day it it is an industry that employs millions of people and the truth is a lot of the time most things aren't being made well. No. And it's really hard to have literacy on what is a reasonable price for things when you have machine making three dollar versions of things. And then other companies that aren't as well made, maybe a few steps up from Sheen.

Charging triple the price. Yeah. And then, you know, and then some beautifully crafted things that are reasonably priced, but you you can't. Unless you're in fashion or really paying attention, it's really hard to get a grasp on what should be normal. I get that. And I fall for it and I get confused too. I feel like a good website I like looking at is Good On You, which is an Australian take. website where they independently audit brands on the basis of like people, planet and animals.

'Cause when you go I you know, I'm going through brands' websites, like reading the about, reading the sustainability pages, et cetera. Yeah. But sometimes it's still so hard to kinda wade through. So I do like That's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. Or even there's some actually great like TikTokers and stuff who teach you

the basics of like stitching. Yes, yes, yes. And things like how to check the like hundred how to check how something is made yourself when you feel it. Or like this is seventy percent this, which means like Yeah, I've been loving those TikToks too because I think we're one of the first generations to really lack this material knowledge. I know that my mom and like her mom would make clothes. Like they knew how to do this. Yes, my every

nearly like grandmother's soul you know. I I don't know how to use the subject. Neither, neither. And I just wish we could connect back to the material objects around us because I think having that disconnect means that we lack a lot of this knowledge or connection. I think it's actually a connection piece as well. Yeah. I hope that clothes

won't always be seen as disposable as they are today because that's again not how our ancestors, not how our grandparents lived. There's a connection to clothes, you know, that we should be fostering.

I think so. And I think I've actually got really lucky with my mum always caught to buy qu quality over quantity. And that is a luxury in itself to be able to to think like that. Um, because so much of this conversation is affordability. But I do think that actually has saved me so much money.

than buying a ton of smaller things than one really good thing. And then it's you know pretty hard to resell some of that. Yeah. Whereas if you've if it's a good piece that you've maybe just outgrown or you it's not really your style anymore.

if it has that quality, you you can actually give it that second lease of life. It's true. It is true. And there is that value that's kept in the garment that can be passed on. We see this for the circular economy where we keep clothes in circulation for longer and he benefits everybody, right? And when we're talking about the affordability of clothes and that is such an important part of this conversation,

I want to stress that like the most there's a great quote by one of the co-founders of Fashion Revolution, which is like a global fashion movement. And she says, the most sustainable garment is the one already in your wardrobe.

We don't need to go buy like sustainability isn't about buying stuff. It's actually the opposite. And it's about like making use of what we already have. Yeah. Which is like maybe a boring answer. No, but I actually think like if you want to get and this is what I in the last few weeks, which is like if you wanna get experimental with style It's less about buying more things and more about challenging yourself to

put outfits together beyond the one. Like I used to p and I'll admit, I used to fall into the trap of um buying something that I know looks good with these pants. Yeah. And then I would not know how to apply that top to anything else. Yes. This one just goes with this. And this goes with this and I know that looks okay. And it was actually like a confidence thing to be able to go like, oh, I can actually mix this or experiment

With a few other things that, you know, hasn't been modeled to me from that storm already. It's like, but that was on the mannequin. Yeah. Literally that was on the mannequin, so I know it's safe. Like And that is so fair. One of my favorite things is like when uh I wonder if you've had this experience as well. It's like when you go traveling somewhere and you have to pack a limited wardrobe in your suitcase and you've only got a few pieces to play around with.

I actually kind of love it because that limitation means that you experiment more, you try things on together that you might not have like a dress you might wear as like a skirt or you might layer these things and you're like, I've never done this, but that's all I've got. Yeah. And that's

It's fun. It is fun. And you know what else I've found with style in the last few years is um knowing you're A teenager and you feel a bit disappointed. silly if you wear something that's um long. Or you feel a bit silly if you wear something that's like a handbag like'cause you don't feel grown up enough to be wearing that or like you do just wanna be dressing in like I mean I was definitely a culprit of I w I wanna wear the tiniest things in in in existence when I'm nineteen.

um a cook eye crop only. And now that I'm older it feels like no, I can wear little heels and I could wear a long skirt and I can wear um I can layer and I I look I look the part now. Hell yeah. There's so much confidence that comes with age too with this. Well I find it really interesting, especially in an Australian fashion content context.

Well you see, I don't know, you're in Sydney, I'm in Melbourne, but like teenagers, majority of the time, I swear sorry, teenagers. This does not represent you. You may like it's cool and it's comfortable to just wear sweats. Right, like people wear trackies and maybe like a little tight top. Because fitting in, I think especially in Australian fashion. Oh my god. So valued. Like that's what people want to do.

Do. I think that's why I was so stunted with my personal style for a while. Because yeah, there was a real thing when I was younger that you wore one teaspoon denim cut off short. And a cook eye crop or like a baby tea or whatever it was. And objectively, that does not look good on me. Like that is Not not for me. Um but I kept trying with it because I wanted to fit you wanna fit in and

the the more casual you could look, the better. And there was such like value and currency and looking like you hadn't tried. But there's a lot of effort into looking like you haven't tried. It's something that's been really nice in the last couple of years is being like, no, I love wearing tiny heels and fuck off actually. There's so much power in that I think like that fear of looking overdressed is something so entrenched in Australian culture. It is.

Why not again? It comes to tall poppy syndrome, doesn't it? Like most things. It is but also it's funny that you mentioned like Sydney and Melbourne because I find it's a lot more like there's a lot more pressure to be cool in Melbourne. Whereas Sydney you can lean into um

A tiny handbag, a little bit easier, I think. Perhaps, perhaps. I've also been hearing discourse which I tend to agree with every time I go to Sydney. It's like Sydney people are put together. Yeah. Melbourne, we look disheveled. I actually remember getting slight culture shock going out too up here. Because I showed up I showed up in my I can't even remember what I was wearing, but like I was dressed in a similar thing that I guess I guess I'd wear to like

Bondi. Yeah. And I w I wore it to like a Fitzway pie. I look I stuck out like a sore thumb. Um I get it. Like I think once I've I've walked around Fitzroy in like active wear, and I was like, I feel like I'm just like standing out in such a bad way. So yeah, like the the I think the cultural kind of codes of fashion, depending on where you are, even like the suburbs of the

city you live in. They're so strong. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And it's I I also wanna I wanna go back a little bit to um when we're talking about styles from influencers or creatives that we really like and how useful I find that because If I already really love their vibe, it kind of helps me. It's like putting it's like their page becomes a bit of a mood board in a way.

But I think that that what that's given birth to is the whole concept of the influence of brand. Yeah. And I find this really interesting, like how that's evolved in the last couple of years and how I I think I don't know if you've seen this like discourse online because there's so many brands that I love and I love supporting small brands and creators. Um, but there's also a lot of

I guess pressure on creating something that's different now and a lot of them feeling quite similar or feeling like it's another activewear brand or whatever it is. Yeah. What do you think about the like the influencer brand market?

Yeah, the influencer brand market is an interesting one because I think when we look globally at celebrities who have done this and done it well. I can so see why people want to emulate. So Kim Kardashian Skims or even like Hailey Bieber Road. And I understand influences wanting to I guess

diversify their revenue, income and not just them themselves be the product, but actually create something. But looking at the fashion side of things, I think It's normal for small businesses to want to play it safe, I guess, to look at existing success stories and try to Not copy not copy, but at least take reference from. Yeah. Or value that or inbuilt audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like I kind of feel kinda like

whatever about it. I don't have strong opinions. I will say one brand that I've seen recently that's headed up by an influencer that I find who's doing something different um is Romeo Waiting, which is made by Maxine Wilde, who does a lot of like colourful clothes. The thing that I love is that it's all made in Melbourne, which is really bloody hard to do. And number two, she's really lent into colour and like

kind of more statement basics in a way. And I'm like, that's great. Like lean into what makes you different. I think it makes sense, especially if they have a distinct personal style or brand that's like can be replicated in a brand. I think that is really cool to see when you can see their personality and creativity in it. And it's less I think this a lot with like American influences and stuff. It feels like a cash grab when it is really beige simple stuff that is just like

Easy to mass produce. Yeah. It's like do we need another hoodie brand? Like, do we I don't know. I don't I j I don't know. And but like if I can be a little bit cynical overall as well, let's be real, all fashion brands are in a way cash crab because it's a for pro for profit business. Essentially fine, but we don't need to hide behind the moralizing of oh like

I just really wanted to put this product out in the world. It's like, yeah, it's okay, you can admit that you want to make money and whether people resonate with that or want to support that is on them. Yeah. I agree. I agree. And I also think it it's fascinating though to look at um if we're looking at the TikTok and trend side of things. those who can really make it work and make it a

make it a trend? Like even just thinking about Hayley Beaver and Road, that is like one person who's been behind like three or four of those major trends of like Strawberry Girl, Clean Girl aesthetic, bubblegum nails, like it's endless.

It's yeah. I'm actually credit where it's due to believe eva. But you know what's funny though? This re I I can't get this example out of my head. I always think about it. Again, working in women's media, I think he actually points to the vicious like concert nature of the Especially like the media news cycle or like grasping at anything. I remember when it was Halloween, maybe two years ago, Hailey Bieber had brown nails on.

And that sparked a trend. They they called it something like what was it like? Oh my god, I remember it. Cappuccino or whatever it was. I remember this. And then she used like a brown lipstick, a br a br a brown lip liner and everyone called it like cocoa lips or whatever it was and everyone was like, No, actually cultures have been doing that for ages. What are you talking about? Yeah. A lot of this is like being derived from cultures too. Definitely, definitely. And it's I just think that

that want from an audience or perhaps that that desire or that demand from media to be like, We need to name this thing and it needs to be a new thing But we can just sit back and be like, Yeah, girl, she's got brown nails for autumn. That that's Like it could be as simple as that. Yeah, I know. And I get it,'cause like we need that new buzzy thing to latch onto to help give our own style meaning to give to give us like a direction to look at. But I think at the end of the day, everyone

has direction within themselves. I know we have this conversation about quote unquote finding our own personal style, but I want to also maybe

give a different take, which is like your style is innate to you. You're like discovering it perhaps. But it's not like something that you have to find and search for. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's so much of it's just a confidence thing. Yeah. But also, oh my God, on the trends thing, this is a slight slight pivot, but I saw in one of um I looked at an episode title that popped up of yours recently and I was like, okay, if we're gonna talk about trends moving fast.

Can we talk about the I'm Becoming Chinese traup, yep, So there's this if you haven't seen it, there's this trend online that'll be like genuinely people saying day day thirty-seven of being Chinese. And what they're taking from it is like the trend of um having hot water and like that's good for you and Uh it is like good advice, but the the packaging of trends and calling it that has been r this has been really interesting. What do you think? Yeah, I think you've

Hit the nail on the head. It's about the packaging of this conversation. Because, you know, I even talked to my mum about it. I tried to explain it, hear her thoughts, and I was like, In the end, sure. Like embrace drinking hot water, embrace trying traditional Chinese medicine, i embrace like movement in the morning and all these

great holistic, especially like the wellness side of this conversation. That's great. Why do you have to say that you're turning Chinese though? Like no one's saying that you have to do that. And what that does is it really belittles this whole conversation. It makes a whole culture and there it's a it's a long culture. Like a lot of these tr traditions and practices have been going on for, you know, centuries. Um, it kind of

reduces all of that to like a quick fix trend, but also kind of like a joke. That's that's the main thing that is pissing me off. Yeah. It's like we're we're sort of a punchline. Our ethnicity is made into a punchline because where a culture that you can quote unquote be diagnosed as as well. It it's so Uh not that I encourage people to go r but it just popped up in my feed and it was like, you know

It w at first I was like, is this funny? I think I was genuinely confused at first because I was like, this seems funny because it's so like um There's like a shock factor to a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I was interested in your tail, because I struggled with it a little bit because I was like, it's not like it's Chinese medicine and moving in the morning and having hot water hasn't always been there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's

Someone on TikTok didn't find that. No, truly. And I feel like we see this a lot with different cultures and in different ways. And I just I just think People are becoming too comfortable online to make these kind of outlandish

claims and I get it it was like a humorous they came at it humorously but I'm just like we didn't need to do this. Yeah. I think what's um when we're having these conversations about how fast trends move is then like this trend probably will only have a lifespan of a couple of months If that and then it moves on to the next thing and that's when it starts to feel a bit like

Completely. Was I supposed am I still meant to be Chinese? Like Yeah, well Are we still all drinking hot water in the morning? Uhhuh. And it's like people who aren't Chinese can move on from this trend like it was whatever, they can dust their hands, clean.

But if you're Chinese, you're staying Chinese. Yeah. Like I'm still here, you know? And we we've seen this over the years. I definitely think about the Fox Eye trend that happened maybe around 2020, which was a beauty trend that kind of emulated Asian features, East Asian features. and people could partake and then they could leave that conversation. And I think when it happens at the time and I think when it happens at the same time as

other xenophobic conversations, especially around twenty twenty, and we saw the rise of that in terms of COVID, it's like you can't pick and choose and that's what people are doing. Yeah. I think that That's it's it's a big part of this whole thing with um trends. I remember a really interesting conversation we had a few months ago with Kritikupta was about when the trend was to where. Yeah.

uh like uh direct from South Asian culture where the scarf around the neck and people didn't even know. And that's the thing, they didn't actually even they weren't doing it maliciously or anything like that. But it was genuinely like that wasn't an educational piece or included in the conversation at all.

And of course, like n no one's expected to know everything. But it's like when criticisms start to arise, that is your place to listen to it. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, of course I give people the benefit of the doubt, but it's like Now there's a lot of information out there about, you know, wearing traditional clothing from other cultures. And I'm like, I don't know how much of an excuse I'm gonna give

People. I know that sounds quite cruel and harsh sometimes, but I've been on the internet for so long. Yeah. I've seen this happen so many times. Yeah. And it's so s and trends are just so cyclical. Um and that's also funny. Like

genuinely everything for even in the last like three years, most major trends from like the seventies, eighties and nineties and early two thousands have at some stage come. back. Like even looking at wedges. I would never have thought that two years ago. And here we are. Thank God, honestly. Oh, I know. Well it's interesting because um when we talk about vintage fashion, um, for instance, there's no set term that

defines what is classified as vintage, but most people agree that it's about twenty years, right? So we have been seeing trend cycles work in about a twenty year trend cycle. Um, so th that's why maybe in the early two thousands people were referencing like eighties clothing. But that has ramped up so much that we are looking at like twenty sixteen fashion now. It's genuinely reduced by heart. Oh my god.

The 2016 trend was so I keep talking about it, but it was so funny to me. It was so funny to me. And it was also hilarious that it was wrong. Like the ancient scripts were wrong. Oh my god. And they're not ancient. Like that's um Yeah, there were so many people who would I was seeing online dressing up in the twenty sixteen aesthetic and I was like that That's not it. That's not what we were wearing. Like respect on the neck. Exactly. But we love to kind of rewrite.

what just happened and to romanticize times that might not need it. And yeah, it's just becoming quicker and quicker. I think this it's like it's just so hard to keep up with a trend cycle that fast that we just have to keep coming up with stuff. Yeah. One of the trends though I'm seeing die off, or maybe it's just in my feed, but I'm interested in your take, I'm not seeing hauls received as nicely.

Yeah. I it feels like it's a bit of the death of the hall race. And I don't know whether that's just yeah, I don't know if that is just me, but it seems to just not. sit is nice. Like people just are like, okay, because everyone can do a haul and there's so much PR and it's I think Because things are moving so fast, I wonder if now as consumers we're and and I would think this even for like movie marketing in general or um

just marketing in general. We're expecting a lot more creativity to be able to cut through now. Yeah. You're in You're right, I hadn't actually considered the trend of hauls kind of dying off, but I feel like I haven't seen as much of it. I do wonder if it's also like a

something that's seen as perhaps distasteful in a cost of living crisis. Yeah. But then at the same time you're right, like anybody can create a haul. And then in Australia the average c person buys fifty six new items of clothing a year. I don't know if you've seen that stat, that's from the Australian Institute. Wow. Yeah. Where per capita the um country that purchases the most amount of clothing. Even th this was compared to like the US

That's so why do you think Australia is so wending? I am so intrigued by this, and I would love to know exactly why. I think that because we are quite isolated from the rest of the world and the invent of, you know, online shopping, especially ultra fast fashion retailers, I feel like we have this kind of expectation that we are like entitled to this or like oh like now we can buy so I'm gonna get a lot.

That's even talking about the road example there. We're like, it's finally here. Yeah. I'll buy out the whole space. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That is that's but also I think Australia has the best style. I don't know. Do you? I inf not that thank you. I I do if I look at like things that I actually purchased. It is almost all Australian brass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think especially

some smaller cr like smaller brands at the moment that are popping off. And there are all these young girls at the like at the frontier of it that are just killing it. And I go, I this is really cool stuff. And it's cool to see other Like people from the States or from the UK talk about

Australian brands. Yeah. The amount of as I've seen like five Australian brands that you should know and it'll be naming like the mode mischiefs and things like that. And you're like, that's so cool. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're right. I think we do have a really exciting, like emerging fashion scene. But and like wow, that was so nice. I feel like most people do undervalue Australian fashion at times. Or we have that I guess

thing where we value brands after they get international approval. That's been a big conversation. Australian though. Like Yeah, classic. Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, everyone loves Margot Robbie. Okay. We we're playing. Yeah, exactly. So it's like um it's a bit of a catch twenty two at times. But you're right, there's a lot lot of good things happening, especially from indo independent creators. Yeah. I think so. But I also think the m that amount of spend on clothes is interesting. Um because

I do wonder if like doom spending is like a thing where we react to like global anxiety. It's kind of like that lipstick theory. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like buying something that's cheaper to have that kind of

increase in I don't wanna say serotonin serotonin. Yeah. To also feel like you can be spending. Exactly. For those who don't know the lipstick theory, it's super fascinating. It's like when a and this is like actual research behind this, when it's times of economic crisis, the sales of lipstick will go up because we like to be able to feel like we are

buying something for ourselves still, but it's on a much smaller scale. Yeah. Um, I do think that's maybe changed with time because it doesn't have to be a lipstick anymore. You can now spend on a dress or clothes, literally anything and get it pretty cheap now. And maybe that's maybe that's a response that we subconsciously have to the state of the world in a way. Yeah, I mean it's similar to like little treat culture that I think has really um come about in the last couple of years that

we want to spend like seven dollars on a pastry or whatever at three PM on our days. Like we almost feel like we deserve it or we need it to get through, which I totally get. Like Yeah. That really pulls through some days. Do what you can. Do what you can with the world. Get yourself the little trade. And when it comes to online shopping as well, like that is almost the

Uh like that is where we see instant gratification really take off, especially in the fashion realm. Like you really can get things delivered the same day even now. And we don't have to wait and we can get that nice, like Boost of serotonin and

But I find it interesting that I think you'll you'll have to fact check me, but I think saw this study about like when our serotonin peaks the most when we're online shopping and it's actually at the checkout right before we make the purchase, not when it comes. Does that resonate too with you? At the same time I also feel

So sad when nothing's coming in the post. Nothing to wait for. But isn't it that anticipation of waiting for something like you haven't gotten it yet, but you know it's just checking that it's coming. Like Yeah. Which kind of is the waiting for the checkout. Like it is. Yeah. And then at the end of the day that really proves that, hey, maybe it's not about the actual thing you're getting, but it's about like getting something your way. And then

It's interesting to consider. I d I'm considering it and I feel very sane and like in this. But I I d I think that I think that's quite a universal experience. I oh, but maybe it depends'cause I have some friends that are like

What are you spending on? Like literally, what is wrong? And it's not that I'm buying a bunch, but it's just It it is actu and we're talking about investments, but I was saying this as on a pod in an earlier episode, but I can't remember the context, but When you do after like wearing the one teaspoon shorts for long enough and then you realize this probably isn't my personal style. To make the right investments and ethical investments and to start to build a wardrobe that does reflect you.

is expensive and and time consuming. Um And it's fun, but it's also really it takes a long time. Yeah. And and even just getting back to like, okay, I probably even being in an office and stuff like that again, you're like, Okay, I probably need some shirts and some pants and some tops and you realise how quickly that racks up. Um and then you feel in furious at the guy that's wearing the same shirt like plaid shirt every day.

Um but it is and I think there's like some grace in that as well. Like having a grown up wardrobe is hard to build. It's hard to build, but it's also that thing of like, I feel like maybe movies have Change our idea of it that you expect to go into a shop and then you're like changing up your entire wardrobe. You're getting rid of everything and then it's all new. So it's just like no one who's got the time and money for that, right? No. So it's like perhaps it's looking at what you already own.

think about what you resonate with, what do you gravitate to, like what do you find yourself like wearing constantly and then building from that. Like that's your base. And then it's about trialing little things, right? That could be accessories. It could be

like a different trend that's coming your way that you find interesting and it's like small little increments, not like a huge overhaul. Yeah. Yeah. I think I joke about this on the pod, but like this um idea of a personal rebrand, and you do tend to think that needs to come with

an entire overhaul and it doesn't. It really doesn't. How nice would it be to have that like scene in The Princess Cyrus and stuff and it's a whole makeover. It's like so the makeover scene in that in the first movie and then number two when she goes and she has like the new house or the the do you know this scene I'm talking about and like she like gets a wardrobe and then like the jewelry comes out and it's like oh God, I wish I could live in a

in one of those transition scenes. It's honestly so good. Genuinely.

That and the Devil Wears Prada were two of my favorite movies growing up that I've watched a thousand times. Such unrealistic expectations on a rebrand. No, I know and I want those boots and I want her bangs. Sorry, this is the Devil Wears Prada, by the way. But I also I love that you've mentioned that personal style is, you know, something that comes naturally. It's trial and error. But like when algorithms are constantly t showing us what others are wearing.

How can you begin to like I mean, yeah, what's your tips from someone who needs to help blocking that out a little bit? Yeah. And like to be honest, I love using the internet for inspo for fashion. And so it's not necessarily about blocking it out completely.

I think it's about being discerning. I think the way that we're using the internet, so like kind of full circle from maybe the Tumblr days to now is that the internet is no longer like an inspiration mood board, but it is almost like a direct Here's exactly how to wear this, here's exactly where to buy this exact item, and then you wear it yourself. For me, I think

to be more discerning. So to look at an outfit of a creator you might like and ask yourself like actually what do you like about it? What specifically? Because just because something looks great on someone else doesn't mean it's necessarily for you. Yeah. But almost pick and choose what you like. There's actually something I used to do a bit and this might sound mean, so give me your take, okay? Okay.

So I would set a game for myself sometimes when I'm on public transport and I'd look at people's outfits like anybody. So people gonna work, whatever, and I'd pick something I like and something I don't like about how they're wearing or what they're wearing. In my head, obviously Sarah. Just I'm not sliding across to them afterwards. You can just read that in your own time. And like I say this as almost like a way to train myself to be

discerning about what I like in terms of fashion and style and also to almost give props to everybody who's partaking in fashion because you would you might not expect like the fifty year old businessman or whatever to have something you like but it's nice to kind of approach it in that way. It's almost Like a muscle you need to train to like be like what do you actually like? Because I will help you figure out your personal style or become, you know, more intimate.

Is it meme? A little bit meme. I don't think it's meme because it's all the thing is with fashion, with art, is it's personal preference. It's personal taste. Someone else could look at the same person and have the opposite take to you and that's also okay. So it's just about having fun with

figuring out what you like and don't like. And I think a lot of that is the confidence of being able to have an opinion yourself. Yes. And I think people need to practice having an opinion. Oh my God. I could not agree more. I find I'm like bursting at the seams trying to like agree with you. I think we have like a big issue with people not feeling confident in taste and that varies from

T like what they're watching in terms of entertainment or what how they're dressing. And I want to be like to people, just try back yourself. Ask yourself why you like or don't like something. And those conversations are so important. Don't just say something's nice. Something's good, something's bad. Ask yourself why. That's all we have. I think when people are especially handing over so much to AI, it's like Remember that at the end of the day, you're...

not just opinions, but your takes and your taste or things are so important. Like don't just give that over to other people. Yeah. And I I really think it's so much of it when when you think back to those early years of style. If someone was ta it it's so you kinda step into a personality and it's really hard to shake. Um and there are some girls that were told really early they have a great eye and they became in cr they they then they had the confidence.

Experiment because they were already had that instilled. And if you were told, like even a little bit, and I feel like I hear this story all the time that like you're not the fashionable one. Or um fashion's not your thing or whatever it is, um, then you carry that with you for a really long time. And you go, if someone just said something of those early years of like then

I wonder how different your personal style would be. That's such a good point. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is. And like, especially when your scene is one way and then you wanna pivot to another. It's it's hard to shake.

I will say though, I was never interested in fashion until my mid-teens. So I have distinct memories. This was like so like from 14, 15 I was interested. But like my whole year eight. Every single weekend, it's actually mortifying. I wore the same blue JJ's hoodie. Okay? Like I did not care about fashion at all. Like

Oh that one and it had a monster on it. Do you remember when they did like those like cartoony and they had like some words on it? Yeah, I was obsessed. That's so f you what's so funny. I'll admit. I

Wore a lot of hammy downs when I was younger, which is great. Cyclical fashion. Yeah. Vintage, some would say, if I had these words at the time. Um But I had like an auntie that was a bit older and my mum was always pretty stylish and so she would let me like if it was Muffy Day, she'd kinda like give me a jacket or whatever.

Which now I look back and I would die to wear those jackets. But like being a year seven kid walking around in a Pashmina was like iconic. Like objectively iconic looking back on. But at the time it was like I'm walking around like a Of like a smart 45 year old and everyone else is in their hoodie. And I was like, yeah, that. That probably set me back a little bit.

Oh my god, I love that you did that though. I love that I did that with the the confidence that I was walking around in this like a trench coat to Mufti Day. Like also Mufti Day's a wild name for it. We call it free dress day in Victoria. You don't call it a mufty day? That's crazy. Well, I don't even know what Mufti stands for. It feels like a slur. It's close to something. Like free dress day feels uh

That makes way more sense. That makes way more sense. If anyone knows, please tell us. Yeah, God, the the ierosyncrasies between like the vena the vocab between Sydney and Melbourne, like sorry. So fun. Potato cake versus potato scolet? Like what the hell is a potato?

Oh, that shook me when I was here around Christmas and I said that and I didn't know what a potato cake was. Stop. I genuinely had no idea. I was so confused. As a fun fact I you can probably cut all of this, but did you know that chicken salt is an Australian invention? No. Yeah, it was invented in the seventies. I I always get confused. It's either Adelaide or Perth man.

And I owe that man everything. That is my favorite thing. Also it's it's also vegetarian, F Y I. Yeah. It makes complete sense to me that it is Australian'cause it's the most Australian thing I've ever seen or heard, but that's hilarious. We have culture and it there it is. The other thing that also shocks me is that there's not like a chooker's equivalent in the States. They don't have

Oh, this could be another this could be another device. More like the good luck chokers. No, do you guys are like like like barbecue chicken, right? Like barbecue chicken shops? Like yes. Like barbecue chicken chicken and chips in Australia. That doesn't exist. Why? In like the States. They would never like they have fried chicken. Yeah. But they would never have barbecue chicken. Wow. Right? Okay, and I'm taking the term chukas. I'm gonna try to implement that. It's'cause there is a store in

Like in Sydney, that's charcoal charlies. Everyone's called chukas. And um then I think I just a automatically consumed all the tall chickens. So I don't know if this is a your term or a Sydney term? I'm not confident now. Oh my goodness. Who would have known like Sydney Melbourne one hour flights? So many differen So many differences. So many differences from the tiny handbag. Oh yeah. To true case And everything in between.

Oh God. Um, thank you so much for coming on this show. This has been so much fun. I did not think we'd be ch talking about chicken salt, but uh no trust me to bring it up. I've I enjoyed We're very lucky. No, I actually found that was really that was really helpful and hopefully helpful to other people. I love just getting small talk guests on about things that I want advice on. I love that. Yeah.

This is your solo episode today, you know, solo hour to ask whatever you want. Genuinely. Feel free to say anything about like where you'd like people to go. Oh, of course. So you can find me on Instagram at Yehmag, which is Y-E-M-A-S. GZ TikTok is Maggie underscore Zhao and I'm also the co-host of the Culture Club podcast. So yeah, find me there.