Marianne Lake

We discuss advice for people looking to pay down debt, the biggest mistakes people make with their money, what Americans take for granted in the banking system, and whether or not it's smart to invest in cryptocurrency. So let's get into it. Welcome to another episode. Today is a very very special day because I finally got the guests who's in front of me to agree to sit down with me. Her schedule is insane for a lot of different reasons. One,

she's an absolute icon. She is a mega businesswoman. She's the former CFO of JP Morgan and now the CEO of Consumer Lending at JP Morgan Chase. Mary Anne Lake. She's been with JP Morgan for twenty years, working as a senior financial officer in London. Office and managing the global financial infrastructure and control programs as a part of the Corporate Finance Group. Not to mention she's a champion

of empowering women in finance. She is the co founder of the Women on the Move Initiative, the largest employee business resource group at the company. And as if that wasn't enough, she also sits on the board of directors of the New York City Ballet. She is easily one of the smartest and most influential people in the world. Um, and that is a statement. I'm gonna leave that there, and has had such a dynamic career. Chase Cards Services alone is the number one credit card issuer in the nation.

So I am super excited to be sitting down with her today. Out further ado, Hi, Marianne, thanks for doing this. My absolute pleasure to do it, and I'm thrilled to be here. And that was a big intro, so we'll hope to live up to it a bit. Well, there's more. You know, when I wrote the intro, it was like

a full page. You know, it's tough because you do so many things and you've had such a really it's such an important and impressive career so then I'm like trying to figure out with the team, like, Okay, we won't go through all this stuff and I just I'll just talk to her. How is it being back in the city today. It's good. I like you to be here.

I miss it, if I'm honest with you, you know, I think we've become incredibly capable virtually, and there are some really big benefits to it, and some of those are family related and some of them are, you know, professionally, But I miss it. I missed the combustion, the collaboration, that kind of bumping into people in the corridor. So it's fun to be back for me. You know, back then it was, you know, it was very new, scary. Nobody knew what they were doing. New York was the

epicenter of this whole thing. And even though you know, nationally it's still um, the pandemic is still an issue. I feel like we kind of have a little bit of an understanding about how to cope with it here. So yeah, it's kind of like anything, right, Like you you kind of figure out what your flaws are personally, and then you just learn how to amplify your better traits. It's like we've all kind of figured out, all right, this virus is a flaw. We want to amplify our

better traits, coping mechanisms, all that. Can you talk to me for just for a split second about you know, you see all the time hospitals and you know, let's say the police force fire department, they run drills all the time for you know, terrorist attacks, for anything, anything, anything. You are a very very large part of the biggest bank in the world. Are there drills for if everyone needs to stay home for seven months? What do you do?

How you operate? Yeah? So, I mean look, business resiliency and kind of operational resildiency is a you know, pretty critical part of what we do, and we're systemically important all around the world to you know, the financial infrastructure and all of our clients, and so we do drill

all of the time in every possible way. To be completely candid, you know, many of the resiliency plans that companies had in all genres of industry involved failing over from one location to another and level loading around the world. And clearly I would be misleading you to suggest that we had the you know, one year long global pandemic work from home drill. So you know, there was a

lot of lessons to be learned. And you know, my hat is off to all the tech and infrastructure folks here, you know, at our company, but quite frankly, you know everywhere that managed to pull off getting you know, for us two d fifty thousand close to two hundred and fifty thousand people working from home in weeks and we've

just gotten better and better and better. And so you know, when we look forward now to whatever that looks like, resiliency planning for the future, you know, one of the things that will be you know, conscious of is you know, this whole dynamic of virtual working, working from home, and you know, we should never lose this capability now, right, One of the things that we're focus on and everybody will be focused on, is what does the you know,

workpace solution look like in the future ways of working? You know, will people be physical virtual hybrid? You know, what will that look like? And so you know we're working on it too, and it will be different. I'm pretty sure would have been the benefits of virtual work in a bank is productivity? Still there is the intellectual conversation what's tougher like? What do you think that what do you think is going to come out of this Other than just that you can save on office space,

which everyone talks about. We're more worried about the things that you might lose than necessarily focusing on the benefits. But there are some I would say, you know, first of all, this has been a deeply human crisis, and so you know, we are first and foremost we employ um, you know, two human beings who have families that they care about, and many of many people have experienced sickness

and grief. And so the ability to continue to employ those people and allow them to have, you know, a more flexible working dynamic when they're kind of personal and professional life is collided in this un like precedented, completely unimaginable way, you know, has been a benefit, of course, because you know, otherwise more people would have had to

put their hand up and say, I'm tapping out. I need to go deal with you know, my kids, my family, my circumstances, and you know, I think this virtual world has allowed a degree of flexibility that we see when we measure the statistics. We see some people are working later at night and having to take some time off during the day to get stuff done. Other people are coming in because we need them to. Branches need to

be staffed to help our customers. The traders are in, you know, and other people are working you know, an extra hour a day that they're not commuting. So we're paranoid about losing productivity. We measure everything we can measure, which is not everything. I think that you know, our employees have met us more than halfway and are like putting in the extra time when they can, and so we're just you know, sort of keeping the face. Now.

What we're worried about, other than just activity, is the cultural draw down because you know, you build You're a relationship guy, right, You build relationships because you have the human interaction and the human factor and you get the organic opportunities to sort of understand people and what makes

them tick. And you know that's hard. So figuring out how you can mentor people virtually making the time to like hire, how you hire people, how you train them, how you mentor them, how you teach them the culture, and then how you maintain the culture. That's you know, what we're focused on. And you know, so far, so good, honestly, like pleasantly surprised, but you know, it's the watch item, and we're paranoid about that, so we're focused on over

compensating for it. We've started to have what we're calling like zoom amnesia, because if the place doesn't change, the screen doesn't change, and all that's changing, or the little squares and faces. You know, I will always remember this meeting, sitting down with you. I always remember, you know, good times I've had with other people physically, because I haven't

going to remember these ceilings. You know that whatever the zoom always looks the same, and so you know it's like, oh, remember that conversation we had, and like I honestly vaguely, I mean I remember, I remember the sound, remember exactly that specific zoom meeting. Which is which is I think tough for tough for growth? Right, Like it's everyone's going

to become either these these task tickers and doers. Everyone's gonna have their little memo pads because they're not going to be able to remember specific situations because they will have no planting in place. Right, there's no hook. Everything is like monochrome. But you know, look, I will say one other benefit for me, and you know, I'm like thrilled about this is if if you call me on the phone these days, like you know, CELLU learned no video, I'm like, what are you doing? Why? Why would you

do that? Why are we not looking at each other? Like we can't necessarily be in the same room And that's like a given. But now everything I do is face to face. And so I'm weaning myself off email, not completely, but as much as I can. And that's a benefit, so you know, and I'm able to zoom you at nine o'clock at night and it doesn't like ruined my day. So there are some good stuff and dinner with my kids, yes, family time. How stressful was

March twenty twenty. I think that this company and like for me, you know, we rise to a good crisis. If I'm honest with you, and you know, I think that you feel the stress of it kind of a little bit more when you're past the peak, So you know, I would say, kind of June maybe felt to me like my gosh, this is like, you know, still going and here we are now in January. I think in March for me it was it was all about our customers. You know, we had millions of customers that needed our help.

In a variety of different capacities and they needed it quickly. And when we were all sitting there in March, I don't know about you, but you know, we didn't know

where it was going to end. And you know, we were talking about unemployment in the you know above t and you know, so if you think about the business that we're in in terms of helping people, you know, both with their financial lives in terms of their banking investments, but also you know, with their lending um you know, being able to provide them with quick solutions and you know,

engage with them digitally. That's the other thing. We're a world where you know, our default is, you know, pick up the phone and call the call center or go into the branch and ask for help. And so we rapidly had to turn around and say no, no no, no, like we've we've got you covered digitally, and like reabituating

or obituating people to do things a little differently. So I would say March and April it was like you know, execution, execution, execution, you know, meeting every day, like solving problems, like figuring out the plan, like getting after it, like singularly focused on helping customers, and June was more than kind of and then you know, you're re up what were some of the tough decisions that you all had to make. Honestly, if you come at something from a customer lends, decisions

to kind of become a little easier. But for us it was you know that the government obviously has done a huge amount to help all Americans at least to try to, and you know we wanted to, you know, step up and do our part. And so clearly as you know, the cares that provided you know, certain protections and payment relief for only parts of the mortgage industry.

And you know, I run not just a government lending business, but also proprietary business and also a credit card business and auto and auto lending business, and we have you know, lending to small businesses, and so you know, we made the decision that we were going to provide you know,

consistent relief across all asset classes from Marche. We had it all built up and running digitally for everyone and not sort of be led necessarily by just what's required, but just you know, full stop, everybody who needs help can get ninety days of relief, no questions asked, across all asset classes to buy time, you know, for everybody to figure out where this was going. And I wouldn't say it was hard decision, but it was important to

make the decision and just do it. Yeah, I will say, you know, in the converse stations that I have with salespeople, buyer sellers around the country, in Chase was one of those companies where everyone felt safe. Like that feeling. Actually, I think in hindsight, you guys will see this in consumer growth. Probably people always go to what they think is safe because you know, they hear it through rumor

or they got them through that pandemic. I know, with kind of the you know, the paycheck protection program, Chase was right on top of it and was answering emails everything quickly, whereas other banks were having a really really hard time either technically or logistically playing catch up. But that program ran through. You know, it didn't, but you

know part of the team that did it. And I have a colleague of mine who's like an extraordinary partner who spent large portions of her twenty year figuring out the p p P program and is now you know, doing again round two. And there will be you know, around three and listen, we moments of truth are important that you know, there are like customer experience is important all the time, but it's never more important than when there's a moment of truth for someone regardless of what

that is. That's what people remember. You know, you had my back when I needed your help. And you know, did we do everything right? You know? No? And did you know will every customer be you know, we'll be equally happy. I'm sure not, but we like definitely tried and it is you know, our intention to like meet our customers in those moments of truth. So PPP was you know a really important program? Wasn't straightforward? It still isn't,

but you know we did our best. Are you you know, motivated because there are so many people looking for home loans right now and buying cars and spending money? Or is there a worry in the back of your mind as someone who runs the entire lending business, that these interest rates are just too low? Where does inflation go? What are the next couple of years going to look like? These valuations, forget New York City, valuations on real estate around the country are not making a whole lot of sense.

Like where we go from here, Disco. Do you think it's a kind of roaring twenties into another crisis or do you think we are set up as much smarter and more capable. And so I think for me, I think this is a very different situation than the great you know, the recession that we had in the last

ten years. And I can speak for us, but I think it's true, you know, quite broadly that like our business is very different today than it was before, and you know, we de risked and so and and this isn't a consumer lead crisis either, So consumer balance sheets are stronger. I mean that's not to say obviously that at the margin there are not you know a lot of people who are and will struggle and we should have like significant empathy and might be there to help folks.

But you know, it is the case that you know, in that kind of ability and willingness to pay spectrum, you know, I think that the consumer just generally is in a decent spot. And so with interest rates where they are, and you know, and the appetite as you talked about for home purchases in record purchase volumes in this region, we've doubled our mortgage origination year. Every year. I do think the next year or two has a

long way to run. And you know, we pulled back a little bit on risk of course, you know, so we we are always going to make sure that when we do loans, we expect our customers be able to unwilling to pay them. Um. So I don't actually see that this is going to be something where we're going to get through the next couple of years and then see a significant consumer stress. But you know, we prepare

for the worst always. What advice do you give to anyone who's listening who might have you know, let's say, either lower credit or they've got a student loan that they need to pay down. So it makes things hard in this idea of the American dream of home ownership just seems like it's getting further and further and further away from their grasp. Is it? Just listen, go through the motions. You gotta make money, they got to be

able to build up. These are the protocols. You know, big banks need to calculate risk because there we we deal with a lot of people as well. Um, you know, first time homebuyers who have said to us, well listen, right, I can't even I have some money, but I've got this loan to pay down, I got this to handle, I got this. I don't think I'll ever be able

to buy a home or afford it. Yeah, I mean, look, at the end of the day, there are some things you can control, and then there are obviously things that you can't. And so you know, as an individual, you can control like your credit, education, your financial health, doing what you can do to make sure that you're positioning yourself the best way you can for someone who's gonna, you know, potentially assess you, you know for you know,

credit worthiness in the future. And so you know, everywhere that you look, you can find your credit score, you can find tips on how to improve it, um and just maintain good financial discipline and health in what you do. Do pay your bills on time, and don't overreach and and and so for me, if you kind of take those disciplines um, you know, into account and then I would also say for us, we we also build relationships. So it's not to say that we don't want to

make money on a transaction. But for me, if you're a customer of Chase, you have had your financial situation with us, we know your inflows, we know your outflows, we know what you have. We're more inclined to be able to lend you because we see risk separation. We see that the performance of our own customers is better. So I would say, you know, consolidate your financial situation with a partner you trust, pay attention to your financial discipline and your own financial health, do what you can

to improve your situation. And then there's an element of things you can't control, so you know, patients is also a virtue. And then if you can't you know, reach the goals of being able to own a home, then maybe there's other ways you can invest and continue to grow your wealth. I mean, obviously the American dream is that you have you know, home ownership and that it's able to sort of create generational wealth for you and and that's something for everyone should aspire to you, but

any wealth creation would be helpful. What was your connection to money growing up? And as a kid, do you remember so my dad he was an electronic engineer, so he wasn't like this super ambitious guy, incredibly smart, um, you know, had a good job. We were sort of very happy and you know, financially healthy, but we didn't.

We weren't like wealthy by the stretch of imagination. I do have a recollection and it's like not particularly clear, but I do have a recollection of when I was you know, old enough to know and young enough not to be worried about it. Of interest rates in the UK like hitting double digits and they're being you know, a big negative equity wave and it being an actual thing that was you know, worrying for my family. So

I have that recollection. And but other than that, you know, it wasn't really something that I paid huge amounts of attention to. We didn't have any real challenges, We didn't have you know, significant excess either. And I would say one sort of formative financial thing for me was when I was at college and you know, I worked a job as well as being at college and you know, has a barmaid pulled pines, um, so yeah, it's fun,

it's social. Why not. But I did that as well as like being at college, and I don't even really know or have a clear appreciation of how I did it. But I ran up some that's not like huge, but like enough that I couldn't you get out on credit cards and stuff not on credit cards, but like you know, just not not so significant that it would be a thing. But I remember being like really embarrassed and just like

making myself the promise that that's not happening again. And so, you know, planning is a big part of what I do. It's someone who's advised and is consulted, and it is now a part of a very very large bank. What what's the biggest money advice that you've either given or someone's given to you that that you think everyone who's listening could take away from. So I think two things. One is like, you know, a little bit more super tactical, but I think probably the most important thing. And then

one may be a bit more strategic. You need to have some liquidity. You know, stuff happens and you can't control everything clearly, right And you know we have in this company, we have the JP Morgan Chase Institute that does a lot of kind of research and did some research on you know, um savings, and you know what you need to be able to weather you know, a contemporaneous or a simultaneous you know, decrease in income with

the spike and expenses. I think you lose your job or your hours are curtailed, and you have a medical expense, and you know, mostly you know, the rule of thumb is six weeks of like you know, take home pay would be a good liquidity buffer to try and help make you resilient through those kinds of normal income volatility stresses. And you know, two thirds of people in this company don't have that, and you know, so that's one of the reasons why national savings is such a priority. And

I do the same thing. I mean, it looks different for me maybe, but you know, I, you know, take a look at what I have that I need to you know, lay out in terms of operating expense for my life and my family, and I make sure that that is at least for some period of time it's liquid and that I have access to it um And I just think that discipline, and it's not always possible, and everybody's situation is different, but I think that like

having that when you can it is super important. And you know, any kind of goals based savings, any kind of ability to try and lean into that I think would be you know, great advice and has been for me. The other thing is, I think long term about your financial situation, if you can, like if you can get invested again, whether it's in investments, whether it's in you know,

your first home. However that is, even if it's in a small amount, and stay invested through cycles and not get sort of over excited with you know, the day to day markets, stay invested, have a long term view. Generally speaking for me, that's you know, that's my philosophy. What's the biggest mistake though, that you think people make

with money? You know, from your position where you sit, which you're the one, is there is there something you know where a one third of Americans I wish I wish people could just learn to stop doing that thing and they'd be so much better off as it just savings. Probably. I don't spend much time judging other people because you know, I think everything is relative to your situation. So you know,

sometimes what looks like a mistake is by necessity. I do think it is literally at its core, just like financial discipline, so you know, don't overreach and pay your bills on time you know you can control. I mean not everybody can control all of the time. And if you lose your job and you haven't got the funds that you know, you know, circumstances can you know, can conspire against you, of course, but if you have the capacity, don't be sloppy. Um and you know, and then yes, savings.

So to me, it would be if you have the capacity, if you're not in a difficult situation, don't be lacks, don't be sloppy, don't use track of things, be on top of it, like maintain the discipline that you would over your health or whatever else. It is. What do you think Americans take for granted with our banking system? You see Venezuela for example, or other countries, and you know, Americans like to complain a lot, right, not things that are good enough. You know, you know the Cares Act.

It's only I can't remember what was it, trillions of dollars, but it was only trillions. How come you can't do this? How can we can't do that? And I feel like if people just understood what it was like in other parts of the world, it really come to appreciate a lot in the United States, but specifically the US banking system. Yeah, I mean, I look, I don't think that you know, our customers take a lot for granted. I think they

have high expectations, and I think they should. They have the right to have high expectations of the US banking system. But I suppose of course that you know, we have the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, we have a lot of other you know, regulatory standards, and you know, the fd

I C insurance. So I think there's a lot of protections, you know, for for US consumers in terms of the you know, where they put their money in, the banking relationships and how you know, regulated banks should be UM, and the standards we should be held to when we're dealing with other people's money and livelihoods and things like that, UM.

And so I think that there are high expectations and that's like as it should be, honestly, and we have to earn the right to continue to deserve that every day, and that's that's healthy. So I don't know if it's unrealistic, but I do think we are blessed over here. Of course, we have you know, and you know, Jamie always says it the deepest, most liquid financial markets in the world, and you know, our Americans have access to you know,

I think differently situated you know, protections. What's a misconception that people have of your job. Well, I don't know if it's a misconception. I mean, I read a lot of customer complaints. I think it's incredibly important to do it. Really, Yes, listen to a lot of phone calls customer really all those recorded calls, every time they see this call is being recorded for yes, really, we're not all of them. I listen. Yeah, we are. So I get complaints directly

to me. We you know, we also go through them often, listen to the cause. I think it's not a misconception of my job. Obviously, we're we're very large financial tution, lots of lots of transactions, um, and you know that that I'm sort of personally involved in deciding each and every one of those is obviously not realistic. But I do try to listen to the cause the complaints and

like really dig into what we could do differently. So I don't know if it's a misconception, but we do spend as much time and I do spend, you know, a decent amount of time like really getting into the nitty gritty of the experience, because you know, it's not always where it should be and we need to do better. Do you remember when you bought your first time. I definitely remember when I bought my first time. I'm a real estate geek. You know that, right, yes, yes, yes?

Where was it? It was in Wimbledon in London in a mansion block, so like purpose built mansioned flats, hundred years old, two and a half bedrooms. Yeah, it was when I bought it. The real estate market in the UK was like fully booming, so like quite literally between starting to look for a place and like being able to buy a place, I went from being able to afford a small terraced house to a partment hundred percent loan to value io when in the days when that

was a thing, really that was your loan. Super brave. That's the bravest I've been. But then I like tightened my belt. I didn't go out. I painted everything would be your absolute nightmare. I painted every single room a different color. Thanks swear to God. How long did I have it? I had that from so I had that for maybe two two and a half years, and I was fortunate that in that two and a half years the UK real estate market we're still doing quite well.

So Liquidated brought up not a hundred percent loan to value you'd be delighted to know. Um, and I still have that house, by the way, That is the house I bought. Yeah, I still have that one. You keep it rented or family lives there? My family? Yeah, okay, Yeah, why do you think you like real estate so much? I'm not great at investing in real estate, just so they were clear, because I'm emotional about it, and I think that's like not a really particularly um you know,

good trade. I actually I appreciate that. I guess I just enjoy the process as my wich as I enjoy the outcome of it. So you know, for me, I spend a lot of time like getting to know the neighborhoods I'm in so right now, you know, I'm not in the city at the moment, and I spend a lot of time just looking at everything that's for sale around the area, so I know the markets. Yeah, it's

not necessarily about the deal. It's more about the like awareness and having the context and the insights and being a amateur of what you are, a deep deep amateur. What would you say to women entering the workplace now? And can you tell me a little bit about what you do for women on the move and what that

initiative is all about. So Women on the Move started being quite internally focused and started off working like a Draper Morgan Chase, where a few of us in you know, some senior positions in the company kind of said, well, we should get together and listen to what the experience is like if you are a woman working in this company but maybe you're not at the level we're at, or in the business in or even in New York, and just really understand, you know, what the experiences like

and understand at a really practical level, whether we as leaders could actually you know, champion some change and make

this a great place to work. We did that for you know, a couple or three years, and then decided that actually, you know, we ought to turn not just to be internally but externally focused and look at you know, women in corporate America, but also our clients and you know, small business women, entrepreneurs and other parts of our client base, and you know, try and see whether through our actual businesses we could um, you know, promote more women run businesses.

Try and you provide capital or you know, get access to capital for you know, female entrepreneurs and things that are just a little bit harder. We have now internally focused a lot of events that we do where we do go out and go on the road and listen to our employees and here like what's working and what's not working and how we could change things. And as I think you said at the beginning, the sort of women's group in the company is the biggest resource group

we have. And there's tens of thousands of women and men, by the way, who participate in that. UM. Many of our women are mentored by great men who have you know, wives and daughters and want women to be successful. UM. And then obviously we're you know, structuring our businesses to also make sure that we're promoting success for minority and women owned businesses and communities. What do you think about when people say you're a trailblazer in the industry? Do

you agree with them? Do you feel like that's a lot of weight on your shoulders and you kind of

have to agree. I don't really think about it so very much, except for I will tell you that when I became the CFO of the company, and you know, people would start asking me, you know, my thinking, my thoughts about you know, women in the workforce and women in corporate America, and I realized that you had a responsibility to actually have a point of view and to lean in and really you know, take some responsibility for you know, helping others. But I don't, you know, think

so very much about myself. And you know, I do this job because I love it in this company because I love it, um you know, with a team that I think is extraordinary, and nothing that any of us do is like just us. The best leaders are people who have you know, teams of people working for them that are more talented than they are, and you know, bring talent and culture along. And so I really think it's got precious little to do with me, but I'm happy to be a part of it. What would you

say is, I don't know what to say. Number one, But why do you think you've been successful other than just work really hard and you're smart and like math, you know, there's there's got to be more to it than that. You know, you are resilient, right persistent. I will say that there are two things that that about me that I think are the most true of anything. And uh, and again I don't know that I'm the only person that's ever said this, but it is definitely

true of me. And there is no one that will be more prepared to me, and there will there is no one that will ever our work me and you know, so I think those are like reasonably um sort of good core competencies is to like work hard, be prepared

um and you know, know your stuff and get stuff done. Um. I think that you know, people become people have trust and confidence in people who know what they're doing and get stuff done, who actually have a clear appreciation of what they don't know, know when to ask for help. They don't consider that there are boundaries to their jobs, that are willing to like put their hand up and lean into things that haven't you know, got very much

to do with them. So who are great partners. And then I wouldn't underestimate the importance of being nice to be around, you know, I will. I know it's you should never overuse it. But the number of times that I've said to people like it is a genuine pleasure to have you on the team. And that's not nothing right, that is like pretty significant. People like to be with people where they have trust and confidence in them because

they know that if they need help, gonna ask for it. Um. If they can't do what you want them to do, they're gonna like tell you that they are going to work really hard and that they're going to do it with a smile on their face and a good attitude and be a great partner. Thank you so much for doing this and going into the city amongst the craziness I do come in. It's not just for you, but I'm going to say it's just for me because that makes me feel today. It was you. Yeah, good, great um,

and you're the best. Thank you so much and we'll talk. Thank you if you're ready to take action today. Based on Mary Anne Lake's entire blueprint for how she got to where she is, go to Big Money Energy dot com slash podcast to download an action plan and I put together for you as well as the show notes. That's Big Money Energy dot com slash podcast. Find more podcasts like Big Money Energy on the I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Big Money Energy

is hosted by me Ryan Sirhant. It's produced by Mike Coscarelli and Joe Loreesca, an executive produced by Lindsay Hoffman.