[Will:] Coming up on this episode, we've got a big announcement as well as author Julian Winters, who's here to discuss his latest rom-com. [Jeff:] Welcome to episode 470 of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast, the show for avid readers and passionate fans of queer romance fiction. I'm Jeff, and here with me, as always, is my co-host and husband, Will.
[Will:] Hello, Rainbow Romance Reader. Since this episode just happens to drop on December 30th, we want to be the very first to wish you a Happy New Year. So in reference to the big announcement, we're not going to play coy. It's better just to rip the band aid off. Not only is this the last episode of 2024, but it is also the final episode of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast.
[Jeff:] After nearly a decade and 10 incredible seasons filled with author interviews and discussions about the books we love, we've decided it's time to bring this chapter to a close. Why exactly? Well, there are many reasons. First, a decade is a long time, and over the past 10 years, podcasting has changed significantly, both in good ways and challenging ones. The gay romance genre has also evolved,
again in ways that are both positive and, shall we say, complex. The fact is, not everything is meant to last forever. This feels like the right moment to step back—not because we're running out of things to say, but simply because we've done what we set out originally to do. [Will:] We're incredibly proud of what we've accomplished and the community that we've been a part of. This decision wasn't made lightly.
Jeff and I have spent a lot of time reflecting on it, and after careful consideration, we've decided to move on to new projects and explore other creative outlets. [Jeff:] Now, we can't say goodbye without first expressing our deepest gratitude to the people who've made this journey so genuinely fulfilling. To the authors, narrators, and other creatives who've joined us over the years—thank you. Your willingness to share your stories,
your insights, and your passion has been the heart of this podcast. We've loved every conversation and have cherished the opportunity to shine a spotlight on your incredible work. [Will:] And to you, our listeners—you've been with us every step of the way. Whether you found us last week or have been listening since episode one, we want you to know how much we appreciate you. Your support, your comments, and your passion for queer fiction have meant the world to us. You're the reason
we've been able to do what we do. It's been an absolute honor to share this space with you. [Jeff:] As we close this chapter, the thing we're not saying goodbye to is the incredible community of readers and writers that we've come to love. The stories will, of course, continue, and we encourage you to keep seeking out, supporting, and celebrating the diverse voices in queer fiction and beyond. There's so much more to discover, and we hope you'll continue that journey with us in other ways.
[Will:] While this is the end of the podcast, it's far from the end of our passion for storytelling. We're excited about what the future holds, and we hope that you'll join us for whatever comes next. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for being part of the Big Gay Fiction Podcast. We could not have done this without you. [Jeff:] And before we get into our final interview with Julian, I want to take a moment to tell you about his forthcoming book, "I Think They Love You."
If you've listened to this show for any length of time, you probably know how much I love Julian's work, and I'm thrilled with his first adult rom-com, "I Think They Love You." This book is everything I want in a book from Julian. It's heartfelt, funny, swoony, and deeply moving. The story follows Denz, who works for his father's
high-end event planning agency in Atlanta. When his father announces he's stepping down as CEO, this catches everybody by surprise, and Denz unexpectedly decides to compete for the role of CEO against his sister. Since his family doesn't see him as responsible, he also tries to revive his love life to prove that he is responsible and could have a boyfriend. He hasn't had anyone steady since he had a devastating breakup with Braylon,
his college boyfriend, several years before. Things get complicated when Denz's attempt at a fake dating scheme with his best friend, Jamie, doesn't pan out. Instead, he ends up running into Braylon and reconnecting with him, discovering that he's back in Atlanta after years in London. Both Denz and Braylon find benefits to a fake relationship, which then ignites, of course, unresolved feelings. What follows is a beautiful blend of the fake dating and second chance tropes.
Julian crafts a perfect story as Denz and Braylon navigate their fake relationship. Their initial awkwardness and the rules that they develop to protect themselves gradually dissolve as they spend more and more time together, revealing how much they've grown since college. Julian seamlessly weaves their romance into their personal growth and professional worlds.
From extravagant Valentine's Day events to Braylon's work at a nonprofit LGBTQ center, these moments draw them so close together as they end up crossing into each other's worlds. As always, Julian excels at writing relationships. Denz and Braylon's love story hits all the right notes, but the supporting cast—family, friends, and colleagues—adds even more to it. Their encouragement and tough love help push Denz, and by extension Braylon, toward healing and
happiness. It also pushed me to some very happy tears as I read the last 50% of this book on a flight. It was very satisfying, but also I was really trying to keep my emotions under control so that my seatmates didn't catch on that I was very emotionally invested in what I was reading. Honestly, this book brought me so much joy. Julian's among my very favorite writers,
and his move into adult rom-coms is simply terrific. "I Think They Love You" hits shelves on January 28th, and I highly recommend that you go pre-order it right now. I'm so glad that Julian is here and that we get to talk about his first adult rom-com. Once we knew we were gonna wrap up the podcast, we had a lot of discussion about who the last guest should be. Julian's name was among the contenders from the very beginning because he's been a longtime
favorite since "Running with Lions" came out in 2018. Plus, he's got the distinction of being the only person that's co-hosted this show who wasn't Will. And honestly, we didn't want to miss the chance to spotlight his first adult book, so let's get into it. He's gonna tell us everything about "I Think They Love You." We also talk about "Prince of the Palisades," his YA romance from earlier this year, and he's got some reading and watching recommendations for us too.
[Jeff:] Julian, welcome back to the show. I am so excited to have you here to talk about a couple of books. [Julian:] I am so excited to be back. This is one of my favorite places to be, and it always feels good to come back home to the place that really got you started. [Jeff:] It's really amazing to have you back,
and we will talk a little bit about your trajectory over these seven years too. But as I was going back into the podcast archives, it's like, wow, it's been seven years, and it doesn't feel like seven years, at least to me. And... [Julian:] At all for me either. [Jeff:] And that we had you on that very week that "Running with Lions" dropped. So yeah,
we'll definitely be talking more about that. But I think the first thing we have to talk about is actually something that's coming up next month that we really wanted to make sure we got to talk about. And that is "I Think They Love You." This is a big deal because it's your first adult rom-com. And I will say, as I already said, the stuff that runs before the interview, you made me cry on a plane with this book. [Julian:] Which is not my intention at all.
[Jeff:] It was good tears. It was very happy and important things happening, but you still made me cry on a plane. [Julian:] I'm so sorry. As someone who has cried in public before, I am so sorry. [Jeff:] Tell everyone what they're gonna find in this story about Denz and Braylon when it comes out next month. [Julian:] Oh, gosh, I don't even know where to start. It is a fake dating, second chance romance
about two exes who find themselves in a situation where they kind of need each other again. Denz is an event coordinator at his family's high-end, big-time event planning company, and his dad, all of a sudden, out of the blue, decides, "Hey, I'm gonna retire. I'm announcing it during the staff meeting." And Denz is just—he's thrown. He's thrown. He doesn't know what to do
because he always envisioned his father as the head of the company forever. But when his family starts to bring up all of his faults and flaws, he decides to throw his hat into the ring to become the next CEO along with his older sister. But because his family doesn't believe that he takes anything serious in life, he decides to invent a boyfriend to show that he's in a committed,
serious relationship and that he can handle the CEO responsibility—prove this to them. And his original plan is to use his best friend, but his best friend flakes on him at the last second, and he ends up running into the ex, Braylon, who crushed his heart in college when he moved to London for a job. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I think, again, second chance romance, which I don't think I've ever really done and loved thoroughly. Fake
dating is my favorite trope. There's only one bed. It's—yeah, it's a ton of fun. And there's a lot of really cool parties in there too. [Jeff:] It's hard to do second chance in YA, which of course is where you normally write, because you're so young, it's hard to second chance anybody... [Julian:] Right. [Jeff:] ...when you're a teenager. [Julian:] Yeah, it is hard. I guess you could say, well, we had our first kiss in middle school, and now all of a sudden we're trying to make it work
in high school. I don't know how that would work. [Jeff:] It's certainly easier once you're an adult. [Julian:] Yes, very much easier once you have much more lived experience and a lot more time for things to develop romantically, but also for things to develop personally to make you question whether or not it's worth going through it again with someone. [Jeff:] What were the inspirations behind
these very complicated characters? They both have so much baggage between themselves and stuff that they're carrying outside of the relationship. [Julian:] It's a great question. Denz was easy for me to envision. He is a lot like me, where he is very goal-driven but also, in a lot of ways, insecure about the path that he's on in life, where he thinks, "This is what I'm supposed to be doing because this is what the family always intended for me
to do," versus what are his real passions in life. And I think that's very much how I was, especially in my twenties. I was so messy, so very messy, and also very much walking down a road that I thought, "This is what my family or my friends think is the path I'm supposed to take," versus what I know I really wanted to do. I wasn't even trying to write back then. I was just going down this path that I knew I was supposed to. So Denz—yeah, he was easy. Came to me pretty, fairly easily.
Braylon was a tricky character to unlock because I knew I wanted him to be this really—tries to be funny when he is really not. He is also someone who's very guarded, always has his walls up. And he is also someone who has gone down the path that was intended for him, but he also found a different way through a means that I don't wanna spoil for anyone.
But he was kind of hard to unlock in the sense that I had to figure out what really was this deep wound for him and how that's made him into the person he's been since the Braylon that Denz knew in college. And so that was something I learned through a lot of revisions and process. At the end of the day, I feel like Braylon's a lot like me as well in that there are certain things about him that he is very dedicated to, and there are certain aspects
of things that he likes where I'm very much, "That's me." Yeah, I am very much that person. [Jeff:] What did you have to research for Denz? Because it feels like you had to go deep diving in on event planning. [Julian:] It was so hard. They make it seem so easy in the movies and on TV. But I did—I had to do a lot of research on event planning. I had to do a lot of research on venues and what places you can do certain things.
And I did a lot of research into—which, the fun part was—the research into extravagant parties. I watched a lot of videos, and I read a lot of articles about what people really do to make things big for weddings and engagement parties and just parties in general. And that was actually a lot of fun because some of the things people actually do in real life to make their party over the top, I was just like, I could never imagine asking someone to do that for me. It's
just amazing. But yeah, it was a lot of research into that and a lot of research into how much time it would take to do some of these things and how much dedication. Because as much as I wanted to just write about Denz and Braylon just hanging out together and getting to know each other again, I was like, in actuality, would Denz have time to do this if he's planning this really big Valentine's
Day gala? So yeah, it was a lot of research. [Jeff:] Without giving up spoilers, I mean, the time factors pretty heavily into how things ultimately go down too. [Julian:] Yeah. Yeah. It was very interesting to see how much goes on behind the scenes because again, most of the time we as the guests just see the final product. Or even as the client, you have these meetings, but you don't see how much effort someone puts in behind the scenes to pull off that
dream vision that you have in your head. [Jeff:] Yeah, and especially on their high-end events, [Julian:] Yeah. [Jeff:] That could be a lot. [Julian:] Quite a bit. [Jeff:] Now, Denz loves a good rom-com, and he and his BFF Jamie have these Will Thacker Nights, also known as WTN through the book occasionally, for short. They need their occasional rom-com fix. What is it about Will Thacker and "Notting Hill" that made that such a
focus to write it into the book in that way? [Julian:] I love this question because I had to really think about where did Will Thacker Night come from. I knew I wanted Denz and Jamie to be passionate about rom-coms and trying to live out those rom-com dreams and, in certain ways, I had to think through… I'm a huge rom-com fan. Ever since I was a small boy, I was front and center in front of the screen watching rom-coms. I couldn't get enough. And I remember "Notting Hill"
being one of my favorite movies. I also remember having a huge crush—I don't know why—but a huge crush on Hugh Grant during that era. He was "Notting Hill." He was "Love, Actually." He was "Four Weddings and a Funeral." He was "Nine Months." So he was there all the time. And while there were other actors sprinkled throughout rom-coms, he was the one I was just like, gosh, I really love what you do in these movies. And he always played a really great leading man.
And so I just used that. I was like, well, who is the ultimate rom-com hero? And I know how much people love "Notting Hill" just like I do. And Will Thacker was that guy in that movie. So I was like, it'd be cool to name a movie night after him.
[Jeff:] I loved it, just that it wove its way in there and other random rom-com bits too. There's some quotes in there that come from, I believe it's "Pretty Woman," if I remember correctly, and some other places where you're just peppering that into the conversation between Denz and Jamie in particular. But then Denz has to kind of explain the whole rom-com
thing to Braylon, which is hilarious. [Julian:] That was one of my favorite parts—Denz trying to explain to Braylon all the different plots of rom-coms and how certain things work, because Braylon's just like, "I have no... What is fake dating? What are you talking about? I have no idea where all this is coming from." So that was a lot of fun, and also a lot of fun
to pay homage to the movies that I really enjoy. I hope readers, when they read "I Think They Love You," kind of get that nostalgic feel like, "Yeah, I love that this honors these stories while also telling a different kind of story." [Jeff:] I was surprised with Braylon. I mean, you were living in London where so many of these classic rom-coms are set, and you're this clueless about it. [Julian:] Like if it's not a Marvel movie,
I don't know what you're talking about. [Jeff:] Oh yeah. And then, yeah, "Captain America" as the romance was hilarious. People will just have to read the book to sort that out for themselves. There's a line in the book that really struck me among a few lines, but this one in particular—this is something that comes out as Jamie is calling Denz out for really not admitting that he's still in love with
Braylon. And what this is—and it's actually not a quote that somebody says, but it's a thought: "Sometimes pretending the worst things in your life never happened is how you survive. But sometimes you have to shatter in order to figure out how to piece yourself back together so you can heal." Now, rom-coms have such a knack for dropping these truths into these funny movies. How did this one come to the page? Because this is so pointed, I think, and will strike
a lot of people who've been in those positions. [Julian:] I'm so glad you pulled that quote out, because I had to think about when I was writing the book, when did that actually make it into the book? And I think it made it in fairly early, like in the second or third draft of the book. And it was because... it's a very emotional scene that Jamie and Denz are having when that line comes up.
And it's very much Denz, like you said, not admitting that he's still in love with someone, but also just not admitting to himself that he's kind of lived his life since the breakup as, "You know what? That happened, and I'm fine, and it's never gonna bother me again. I'm just gonna carry on," and never actually acknowledging what the breakup did for him. And it was because when I was writing that emotional scene, I was like, "Gosh, this is emotional, but it's not really
hitting the nerve for me personally." And I had to unfortunately kind of take a step back and relive one of my own breakups in life where someone broke up with me, and instead of me acknowledging that pain and acknowledging the fact that, yes, I feel like I'm in a million pieces, scattered across the floor kind of thing. I decided, "I'm just gonna keep going. I'm gonna go to work. I'm gonna work
these extra hours. I'm gonna stay focused on my goals." And it made me a miserable person. And I had to kind of realize that I needed to let myself shatter to kind of collect those pieces and become the person that I am supposed to be after this terrible thing has happened, instead of just trying to sweep it under the rug and carry on like it never happened. So that's where it came
from. It was me stepping back and saying, "You know what? I can't just write this scene. I need to let it live and breathe the way that I had to live and breathe through that kind of a thing." [Jeff:] When it becomes a movie—I'm just gonna pretend like it's going to be a movie—that'll be one of... [Julian:] I would love it. [Jeff:] ...the moments that just stick, I think, with the audience. I could just imagine the way
that it is thought about and comes out in that. And I love how you just knew it wasn't landing and that it needed a little more emotional oomph. [Julian:] Yeah. Yeah. [Jeff:] And this was not the line that made me cry—not even one of them. It was just a profound line. [Julian:] I love that too. I love that too, because I do think the parts that you pointed out to me that made you cry actually made me cry while
writing, so I'm glad we're on the same page. [Jeff:] Those are the best when the author gets it. And people who are listening—because I don't say what those parts are because I don't want to give up what they are—but I think when people read the book, they're gonna go, "Oh, I bet that might be one right there. And this might be the other one." [Julian:] I hope so, and I hope that they tag us on social media and say, "Is this
the part?" so we can confirm it for them. [Jeff:] Yeah, we could confirm or deny at that point if it's the ones or not. What was your favorite scene to write? I can imagine that there could be so many, either from a funny perspective or from a more dramatic, emotional perspective. [Julian:] There are a lot. This book, while in the beginning was very difficult, once I got into it, there were a lot of scenes where
I just had a blast writing. So that this doesn't go on for an hour of me telling you every scene that I love in the book, I can narrow it down to two scenes for me. One is the scene—it happens in a coffee shop—where Braylon and Denz first sit down to really discuss their plans and how they're gonna go about this. It was so much fun to write that banter between them but also them slyly exposing their wounds from the
breakup and how they've evolved since then. And then another scene happens at Braylon's apartment. You've seen me talk about this quite a bit on social media. It is what my friend Adib Khorram likes to call the "sexy grilled cheese" scene. But it is definitely one of my favorite scenes—not just what happens after the grilled cheese but also the stuff that happens before
that. It was another one of those scenes where I had to rip myself apart and bleed on the page, and talk about what it's like to change and what it's like to see change in somebody, and whether or not you can really process that because you want them to be the same person they were when you knew them back then. But also you have to learn to accept that people change, and that's not a bad thing. So yeah, those two scenes were a lot of fun. But there were also so many. I think, yeah,
there were a lot. The engagement party was a lot of fun. And also the "there's only one bed" scene. [Jeff:] All very good choices. The grilled cheese comes up a lot in the book, and I loved every single one of those scenes because there's so much, too, when you're cooking together. [Julian:] Yeah. Yeah. [Jeff:] Even if one person's cooking and the other person's just at the island, hanging out while they cook. So much goes on in the kitchen.
[Julian:] So many great things. So many great conversations happen in the kitchen. And so yeah, those were a lot of fun for me. Now that you mention it, I think all the kitchen scenes that I wrote were fun for me. [Jeff:] I am curious. Rom-coms go one of two ways. They either go the single point of view like you have with Denz, or sometimes you get that other point of view too. How did you decide to only focus on Denz and not
also give us Braylon's side of the equation? [Julian:] Yeah, it was hard. Because like you said, rom-coms do go one of two ways. You either get that single POV or you get dual POV, and you also have readers who are very passionate about one side or the other. I'm one—I can read both and enjoy it, because for me it's really about the heart of the story. I feel like you can make
me laugh and swoon and cry told in either way. For this particular story, though, because I felt so strongly in the beginning towards Denz and the path that he was taking—not just the path that he was taking, but his role in the story, not just from his relationship with Braylon, but also his role in his family and that connection—I just felt like it was better to tell the story that way. Also, I love being able to tell that broken-heart kind of thing through that one side,
because it shows you throughout the story, you kind of see Denz's point of view. But you also hear Braylon saying, well, actually—that Dakota Johnson meme—"Well, actually, Denz, it kind of went like this." And I feel like that's also really great storytelling, to be able to give a reader this emotional arc from one side but also let them feel that other character and what they've been through. [Jeff:] I love that. Now just write Braylon's
story, please, because I'd love to read some... [Julian:] Listen, I promise, if people love and buy "I Think They Love You," I would love to tell a follow-up story from Braylon's perspective, especially because I would love to try to find his voice even more, especially with that horrible fake British accent he has going for him. [Jeff:] And his really terrible taste in jokes. [Julian:] More dad jokes. More dad jokes. [Jeff:] Oh my goodness. Yeah because he had
some doozies in there. [Julian:] Yes. [Jeff:] Did you enjoy writing dad jokes? [Julian:] Oh, gosh. Not at first. I did not realize how hard it is to write a dad joke and it still be funny. But after a while, yeah, it was a lot of fun. [Jeff:] That's good. That's good. I think people will get a big kick out of those. [Julian:] I hope so. [Jeff:] So we've got a few questions from our Patreon community, and the first one comes from Guin, who wonders, why did you decide to write an adult book?
[Julian:] Great question. A couple of things happened here. One, I've always intended to write an adult book. Before I was published with "Running with Lions," I wrote in the fan fiction space, and I did write quite a few adult fan fics. And that was a comfortable space for me. I enjoyed it so much. But when I got into actually publishing, trade publishing and whatnot, I knew my heart was in trying to write young adult first because I grew up not
having those kinds of novels, and it really affected me as a teen. So that was one thing. People might not know this—I think I've mentioned it a couple of times—but my third book, "The Summer of Everything," was originally written as an adult novel, more like a new adult novel where the characters are around 22, 23. But I decided, after "How to Be Remy Cameron" came out, to rewrite that book as a young adult because I felt like
the story fit more for a young adult audience. And then the other reason I decided to write adult was—I will never forget this—my wonderful agent, Thao Le, we had a conversation back in 2019 about what my future is gonna look like, what is the Julian Winters brand and whatnot. And she was like, "You've written—" by that time, I think I had written four young adult novels—she's like, "You've written four young adult novels. Do you think maybe it's time to branch out?'" And I was
like, "Yeah, thank you for that kind little nudge to do something else." And I had sent her the idea for "I Think They Love You." It was a slightly different idea where Denz and Braylon were just going to randomly meet each other at a wedding and fall back in love. But of course, it's changed quite a bit. So that was the other reason—my agent was like, "Hey, let's kind of expand your reach
and do something different." And so that's why I ended up in adult, and I cannot thank her enough because writing this book has done a lot for me. [Jeff:] And I'll thank her too because, yeah, it was great to see just the writing style move right into that space. It reads like a Julian Winters book. [Julian:] Thank you. [Jeff:] To me, you didn't change your voice or change your storytelling style. It was just the next evolution in the writing that's been there since "Lions." You just
continue to be that one-click purchase for me. [Julian:] I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And it's really cool also that, because as you said, I've been doing this for a while. "Running with Lions" came out in 2018, so it's kind of cool that some of my young readers from back then who are aging up now have a Julian Winters book in their age range. Because Braylon and Denz are 25 in "I Think They Love You." So it's a nice progression to be able to say,
"Hey, I still have books for you. You're not too old." So yeah, that's really cool. [Jeff:] Because you mentioned Adib Khorram, who also has moved in that same direction this year... [Julian:] Yeah. [Jeff:] ...as well. And also some space from his first YA, so that people who have loved him also now have that age-up opportunity too. [Julian:] Exactly. We debuted in the same year, so it's really cool that we both have
now branched out to adult around the same time. [Jeff:] Yeah. The other questions come from Matters of the Heart. So this is kind of a combo question you get here. What is something you found most challenging or surprising about each of the categories, and what did you feel was the biggest difference between the two? [Julian:] Gosh, what is challenging? Well, I will fully admit for "I Think They Love You," the most challenging part was reminding myself that,
"Hey, you're writing for adults now. You're not writing for young adults." And my agent had to call me out quite a few times. She was like, "Hi, you refer to Braylon as 'boy' here. You can say 'man.'" And I was like, "Oh, this is so embarrassing. This is so tragic." So for "I Think They Love You," it took me a while to shed that young adult voice that I've been writing in for so many years and remember that, "Oh, I am an adult, so I can talk like an adult,
and I can word things in a certain way." For young adult, the hardest part sometimes is making sure that my books feel fresh and they feel like they're speaking to the current generation, but also that they're talking about topics that are timeless. So that way when 18-year-olds in the year 2032 pick up one of my books, or 16-year-olds in the year 2029 pick up one of my books, they can pick it up and feel like this book is still speaking to them,
even though it was written way before their time. So that's always a bit challenging for me because I want to lean into what's current, what's new, what's happening, and having to remember, yeah, I need to write timeless things. The surprising thing for me was once I got the voice for adult, how quickly the rest came to me, because usually it takes me a while to draft stuff. I am very slow. I am painfully a perfectionist. So it's kind of surprising how
quickly it all came to me. I think the differences for me is, I don't know if I felt much of the differences in that I still just really want to tell really great queer love stories no matter what age category I'm writing in, because I just don't feel like—even now, it's surprising to me to say in the year 2024—that we still don't have enough. It still never feels like I could have this random thing that I really love, and I can go to a bookstore and pick it up, and it's gonna
have queer main characters at the heart of it. And so I think that's like—there is no difference for me in the sense that I just really want to continue to give readers really great queer love stories no matter what age category. [Jeff:] Speaking of YA, you also released "Prince of the Palisades" earlier this year. Now for me, this was a big deal because it meant I got to read two Julian Winters books the same year. [Julian:] Which never happens.
[Jeff:] Realistically, "I Think They Love You," most people don't get that until January. That's fine. I got two in the same year. Tell us a little bit about this royal story between Prince Jadon and aspiring filmmaker Reiss. [Julian:] This one was an interesting book for me. I love royal stories—I don't know why. I grew up with a mom who's obsessed with celebrities and all that stuff, so maybe that's why I love royal stories. But I never could really get royal
stories that I felt like I existed in, even though I'll never be a royal. One can only dream. It was interesting to me because I've never seen it in this particular way. And because I never felt that way, when I sat down to write it, I was like, "Can I even write this?" Because when you don't exist in a particular space—as much as I've always made it my passion to, if it's not there for me, I'll write it myself kind of thing—when you don't exist there, it can be very daunting to
sit down and try to put yourself into that space. And so this book was challenging in a lot of ways but also a lot of fun. Reiss and Jadon's love story is probably one of my favorites that I've written. It's probably my most bantery book also. There's a lot of banter between those two in this book. I think there's a lot of banter between Denz and Braylon,
but Reiss and Jadon are continuously going back and forth. I loved it so much. Yeah, it was interesting to kind of sit there and say, what would a Black, queer royal look like in our world? And how does Prince Jadon navigate these things that are happening around him? [Jeff:] I really like how the marketing behind it ties it to both "Young Royals" and "Red,
White & Royal Blue," because I felt like that hit it so dead on. And you could see the parallels between both of those very different types of royal stories. [Julian:] Thank you so much for saying that. That means a lot to me because I was nervous about using those two comps, because those are two very beloved things—between "Red, White & Royal Blue," the book fandom and now the movie fandom, and then Netflix's "Young Royals," which for me was
the biggest escape during the beginning of Covid and whatnot. It just took me places that I needed to go. I appreciate that compliment so much. I do have to thank James Akinaka—he was at Penguin Teen at the time. Originally, this book was not gonna be a royals book. I had planned to write a very different book. It was gonna be like "Teen Witch" meets "Practical Magic," but also dealing with grief and all these other things. But when I sat down to write it, I couldn't write it. And so
I told my agent, and she reached out to my editor, who reached out to the Penguin Teen family. And James wrote back with suggestions on what he would like to see me write next. One of them was, he said, "I would love to see Julian write a royal romance. He loves 'Young Royals.'" But also he knows that I'm a fan of "Heartstopper" and all these things. So he's like, "Yeah, I'd really love Julian to do that." And I was like, huh. I have never in all of my career thought to write a royal
romance as much as I love them. It's definitely thanks to him and that kind of marketing genius that I leaned into. Okay, these are definitely the two comps that I want people to think about when they pick up this book. Think about "Red, White & Royal Blue," a young adult version, and I want them to think about Netflix's "Young Royals." [Jeff:] You've got amazing people working with you, and guiding you, and advising you between "write the royal book..."
[Julian:] And "write the adult book." [Jeff:] And "write the adult book." [Julian:] I do have an amazing team of people who are so supportive, but also constantly remind me that I can accomplish things because I have really, really, really bad imposter syndrome. So it's wonderful to have a team that is constantly reminding me I can do things and that they believe in me. [Jeff:] As much as I love "Prince of the Palisades," do we get
eventually to have the witch book? [Julian:] I will say that idea has been repurposed. It is not a witch book anymore, though I do really need to write that because "Teen Witch" and "Practical Magic" were two of my favorite movies growing up. But it is definitely in the works. [Jeff:] Okay, I'll take that. In the long view that is trad publishing, I'll take that. [Julian:] Exactly. Yes, exactly.
[Jeff:] I found it interesting having read both "I Think They Love You" and "Prince of the Palisades," there's some very similar thematic things that are happening there. Your two main characters are in very different social circles, whether it's the royalty or this very powerful, rich family who moves in the circle of very high-end events.
There's a lot of family expectations on all sides for these characters that they've gotta navigate, especially for a couple of them looking at legacy, certainly for Denz and for Jadon. And social media plays heavily into both stories—just the way that they're projected into the world and how their other halves may or may not be projected into the world. Was that a coincidence that just kind of happened between these two, or is it more of a planned situation?
[Julian:] Not planned at all. A complete coincidence. I was probably into my third revision of "I Think They Love You" by the time I started drafting "Prince of the Palisades,"
and in no way did I intend for these things to overlap in the storytelling. Definitely, I think maybe the family feature because I wanted to—I think that's something that I haven't delved too deep into, except with maybe the exception of "Right Where I Left You"—is the family aspect of these queer main characters and how they navigate certain situations with their family, especially when it comes to family expectations. So those may be a little bit intentional.
And I mean, I couldn't write Jadon's story without acknowledging the fact that he has this father who's a king and seen a certain way, and his sister is the heir to the throne. So I had to discuss those things. But yeah, it was not intentional at all for so many things to overlap
thematically. But I'm glad that they do. I'm glad that someone can read something like "Prince of the Palisades" and see the way that these things play out and then pick up "I Think They Love You" and see how it plays out maybe similarly but totally different, like you were saying in how things come together. And definitely in the ways that these two characters handled the situation.
While Jadon is an absolute mess because of the situation he's put into, Denz leans into it like, "Yeah, okay, I'm gonna use this, I'm gonna pivot, I'm gonna grow my platform and do all these different things," not realizing really how it is affecting him, while Jadon is very aware of how these things are affecting him. [Jeff:] Yeah, it was very interesting to draw
that comparison. Jadon would like to totally run away from social media if he could, whereas Denz pretty much embraces it because it is just the way that he communicates because of what he does and what he thinks he needs. [Julian:] Right. Exactly. [Jeff:] So we talked a little bit about the fact that "Running with Lions" came out in 2018. It's been seven years and seven books later since you were on the show the first time. How do you
think your storytelling has evolved? I said that I could see all of these things being a Julian Winters book, but how do you think your storytelling has evolved seven books in? [Julian:] A lot of things have changed. A lot. With "Running with Lions," I was very much a vibes-only writer. I was like, what feels good? What do I really like? I'm just gonna write that, and it's "Running with Lions." And luckily it came out really well. But I don't think I was
as disciplined with my craft as I am now. My outlines were just a couple of scribble notes in a notebook—like, ooh, a scene at the drive-in; ooh, them kissing in the rain kind of thing. And that's not who I am now as a writer. Now I'm very detailed with my outlines, trying to look at structure, trying to look at ways I'm telling the story and what's the real heart of the story. I really look at stuff like that. Another thing that's changed, I think,
is my romantic arcs have changed. I think have changed. All of them are very much Julian Winters. You will get that very clumsy first kiss. You will get the awkwardness. You'll get things that kind of debunk what you see in the movies, because in my experience with romance and intimacy and stuff like that, it's very much the opposite of what happens in movies. So you'll definitely get that. But I think characters and romance are very much different. I give a lot of attention now
to what makes these two characters right for each other. It's not just that I want to see them kiss, like what draws them to each other, but in what ways do they complement each other? In what ways do they challenge each other? And I think I pay a lot of attention to that now, which has really helped with the way that I tell romances and the way that I get to tell these love stories of self for each of my main characters. So that's changed quite a bit also.
And I think just who I am as a writer. I was a very nervous debut writer. If it was a challenging or tough topic, I might hint at it. I might write a little bit about it, but I wouldn't go there. And now, as a writer, I go there a hundred percent every time—fearless about it, I think, because that's what readers need sometimes. Like me, as a writer, the reader
is scared to really go there with something, and they need that entry point. And I hope that my stories are that entry point for them where it's like, hey, it's time for you to acknowledge your pain. Acknowledge your hurt. Acknowledge the things that you wish would've gone differently. But also celebrate your joy. Celebrate who you are. Celebrate your community, your found family, your friendships, and things like that. So I think that's something that I am very proud
of—the writer I am now is not afraid to go there. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But at least I didn't hold back, and I think in my early days I definitely was like, no, don't step on anyone's toes. Don't rock the boat. Don't do anything that would make them not want to publish your story. But I've had really great publishers behind me who are just like, tell the story you want to tell, and we will help to make it as great as it can be.
[Jeff:] Interesting to hear you say that because thinking about your catalog, "How to Be Remy Cameron" I think really made some statements that were more difficult, and that was only book two. [Julian:] Yeah. But that was such a hard book to write. I think "Remy" was that stepping point for me where it's like, once I saw that people still today really love "How to Be Remy
Cameron," I think that's where I started to slowly but surely shed it. Where I'm at this point now with "I Think They Love You" and "Prince of the Palisades," where I am, as the writer, not struggling with it like I did with "Remy" making those points was really hard to do in the drafting and revising process because I was scared. [Jeff:] And one of the things that I love that you do so well, and it's just so on display in both of these books, is how you utilize the friend group
to tell some of the truths that need to be told. [Julian:] Yes. [Jeff:] But also pick up the pieces. And family. Your families are so supportive, even when it doesn't look like they are, because they're trying to make you realize something about yourself that they don't want to just tell you. And the way that you write those and bring those together—it was really on display in both of these books. But I think that's a consistency
that's just evolved in a beautiful way over time. [Julian:] Thank you. Yeah, I think "Lions" was my found family book. That was like the beginning. But since then, I've continued to want to include that into each of my books. And with "Prince of the Palisades," Reiss's friend group was so much fun to write. I think it's great in the ways that they can give Jadon a reality check. But also his
sister, Princess Annika, is the same. She's such a great, supportive sister. And with "I Think They Love You," I think it's the first time where I didn't have—like Denz has his best friend Jamie, but I don't have this huge friend group around him. It's just Jamie. His support, like you said, really comes from within the family with his older sister and his younger sister too. And like you said, even with the aunties who don't come across as the best support system,
but in the end it kind of all works out. [Jeff:] They have their ways. [Julian:] They do. [Jeff:] So you're not always able to say things just because of how publishing works, but is there anything you can tease us about what comes after "I Think They Love You"? [Julian:] Yes. I don't know how much I can say, but I will tease, like you said. I will say that my next adult book will be in the same universe as
"I Think They Love You." And it will be between two characters that you meet in "I Think They Love You" that I hope people fall in love with. But I also hope they gasp about the twist that I throw at them in the book. But yeah, writing that book was probably the fastest I've drafted in a while. It was so much fun. I can't tell you who the characters are. But I will say... [Jeff:] I think I know. [Julian:] I'm pretty sure you know. But I
will say writing their romance was super fun, but also super difficult. And I'm not gonna spoil why it was difficult. I won't say difficult—it was going to a place that I have not gone before. And that was, yeah, well worth it in the end. And then my next YA won't be out for probably quite a while. I'm so sorry. But it is, like I said, that reworked book about grief. It is a bit of a sad book. It is a bit of a magical book. I am comping it to
"You've Reached Sam" by Dustin Thao meets kind of like "Hadestown" and "The Song of Achilles." And that is all I can say at the moment. But yeah, it is my first time writing a contemporary fantasy. [Jeff:] Okay, well if we can't have the witch book, we can take that book instead. [Julian:] Yes. Yes. I'm hoping you'll love this different idea as much as that witch book I teased. [Jeff:] The "I Think They Love You" sequel,
are we thinking early 2026 probably? Or do we actually get that in late 2025 maybe? [Julian:] No. It'll probably be around a year after "I Think They Love You" comes out. [Jeff:] Okay. That's the problem of reading into the future a little bit—gotta wait a little bit longer. [Julian:] Just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit longer. But I'm hoping you'll read "I Think They Love You" like five times in between, and then the next book will be out. [Jeff:] There you go.
So of course, we've gotta talk about some books and media before we wrap up. Two years ago you were here at almost exactly the same time of year, as we talked about favorite reads for that year back in 2022. As we kind of wrap up 2024, what's on your favorite reads list for this year? [Julian:] So hard because... [Jeff:] It's really rough. [Julian:] It's really rough. I wish books would stop being so good, so I would not have to make
decisions like this. More crappy books, please. No, I'm just kidding. But some of my favorite reads from this year are "Darker by Four" by June CL Tan. It's an amazing contemporary fantasy book. It's part of a duology. It's just so good. It's told in three POVs, and every single one of the characters is bi, and I'm just obsessed with that. I love that so, so much. Another book I'm obsessed with that doesn't come out until 2025—yeah, May 2025, I think it is—is
"When the Tides Held the Moon" by Venessa Vida Kelley. It is Venessa's debut adult historical romantasy, and it's so beautiful, so lush. You might know Venessa as an artist who's done art for "Red, White & Royal Blue," both the movie and the book. If you have the special edition of the books, Venessa's artwork is the endpapers. And it's gorgeous. And the writing in this book is as gorgeous as the art. I do not understand how that's possible.
But it's just so lush. It's so beautiful. Another book that I actually have in my hands—"When Haru Was Here" by Dustin Thao. If you love a good sad book and you just wanna cry your eyes out, that is a good book to pick up. But it is also so beautiful. It has a wonderful love story at its core. It's fantastic. "The 7-10 Split" by Karmen Lee is a fun, bowling, contemporary romance. So great. I like to compare it to, like, if you just
wanted a really good "Abbott Elementary"-kind-of romance. It's so good. So good. So wonderful. And of course we've mentioned him before, but "I'll Have What He's Having" by Adib Khorram is amazing. So good. It's the first book—he has another book, another contemporary that's coming out next year. But this book is incredible. So swoony. So spicy. So very spicy. But also if you just want a book that will make you hungry and also really want to try a whole bunch of different
wines, that is a book for you. And I'm saying this as someone who doesn't drink. I wanted to pick up a glass of wine after and just live my best life sitting on somebody's patio watching a sunset. So yeah, definitely pick up those. [Jeff:] I would totally go hang out at the wine bar in Adib's book. [Julian:] I would too. I would too. And it's fascinating because it's actually based on a restaurant in Kansas City that I've been to quite a few times with Adib, and he nails it. It's so good.
[Jeff:] Nice. And you're the second person to talk about Venessa's book. Freya Marske was on a couple of episodes back talking about "Swordcrossed," and she also mentioned Venessa's book. So it's very much on my 2025 to-read list. But yeah, such good books you gave us there, of course. And some people will just have to wait into 2025 to check out Venessa's book. [Julian:] Yes. I'm so sorry, but you know, I could not not mention that one.
[Jeff:] It's okay. This ("I Think They Love You") is on my favorite reads of this year, so. [Julian:] Thank you. Thank you so much. [Jeff:] Actually, it's a twofer this year for you because, you know. So what have you been watching recently, because that's the other thing we have to know. [Julian:] I don't know if I'm allowed to recommend things because everything I like gets canceled. [Jeff:] Oh dear. Be careful.
[Julian:] Every single show I like gets canceled. [Jeff:] I used to feel the same way though, so I do feel your pain on that. [Julian:] Streaming services, I need you to stop it. I watched, obviously, the final season of "Young Royals." I was literally on the floor bawling my eyes out. It was so good. That's a definite watch right there. Unfortunately, the series got canceled, but if you can catch it while you can—I'm sure Netflix will have it on there for a while—but it is a show
called "Dead Boy Detectives." It was an incredible show. It was so funny. It was so heartfelt. It was scary. It was great paranormal fantasy. Definitely check it out. It was also very, very, very queer. So that's another reason to check that one out. Another series that I love that just got canceled—so sorry—is "KAOS." Also, Netflix, really mad at you. But that is a kind of modern retelling of Greek mythology. Again, super, super queer. Loved that so much. Great cast. Yeah,
it's just really well done. I am so sad about not getting a second season. And then of course, could not not tell you about "Agatha All Along." I know some people are not Marvel fans. But seriously, I feel like even a casual fan or just someone who really appreciates really great storytelling could get into "Agatha All Along," especially if you love "WandaVision" but you're not into the Marvel movies. It's really, really good so far. And
I'm loving what Joe Locke is doing. I love him on "Heartstopper," but his range watching "Agatha All Along" is just blowing my mind. He's so good. [Jeff:] We're holding on "Agatha" until it's all out, so we can just binge it. But Joe Locke plus Patti LuPone—yes, of course, I'm watching that. [Julian:] Exactly. And Kathryn Hahn is amazing. [Jeff:] Absolutely. [Julian:] Everything—this entire cast is so good. [Jeff:] I can't imagine that I'm not going to like
it. And it's a revisit to the Marvel universe, because I've been checked out of Marvel for so long now since they went off and canceled "She-Hulk," which was so good and had nice queer aspects to it. But then, yeah, "Agatha" with Joe and Patti and everybody—I'm like, okay, I gotta give that a whirl and see what's up. But yeah, "Young Royals" too. I was just, oh. And if the streamers are gonna end something, just end it with a bow on top.
[Julian:] Right, exactly. Give us the whole story. [Jeff:] Don't leave us on a cliff. And I also feel like creators who are producing for streaming need to not end on a cliff if you don't have the pickup. Actually, that's true for network too. If you don't have the pickup, don't leave us just hanging over the edge. [Julian:] Right, right. Exactly. I completely
agree with that. No more of these cliffhangers. Maybe like a slight cliffhanger that gives people a treat to want to watch, but not so big where you have to have that next season in order for you to tell the rest of the story. [Jeff:] Because I'm scared to start things because maybe it's not gonna finish. [Julian:] Exactly.
[Jeff:] So what is the best way for everybody to keep up with you online? Follow along as "I Think They Love You" comes out next month and tracking all the stuff in the time to come. [Julian:] The best way to find me online is you can visit my website, which is up and fully functional again: JulianWinters.com. You can follow me on social media, most likely on Instagram. I am at @wintersjulian. Sometimes you can find me on X, but not very often. But if
you do look on there, I am at @julianw_writes. I have fought so hard to try to get the Julian Winters handle, and they will not give it to me. Even though no one's using it, they will not give it to me. I don't understand why, but yeah, that's where you can find me. [Jeff:] Well, we will link up to everything that we've talked about. I hope when this comes out on
January 28th that people go pick this up because it is so good. And if they haven't read it yet, you know, you can go pick up "Prince of the Palisades" right now because it's there. Thank you so much for coming to talk about these. Thank you for coming early to talk about "I Think They Love You." I'm so happy that we got to have you as our final guest to wrap up the podcast, especially since we've talked so much over the years. So yeah, really glad
that you were able to join us for this last one. [Julian:] And I just sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, want to say thank you for being, one, the first podcast that I was ever on as a published author—even before I was a published author—but also for all that you've done for me as
not only an author but as a reader. This podcast has given me so many recommendations—thank you for breaking my TBR—but has also done such a wonderful thing for uplifting queer books in a publishing space that preaches about inclusivity but doesn't always honor it, doesn't always do its very best in order to make sure that we get these richly diverse, powerful, meaningful celebrations of who
we are. And I just—I don't think you understand how impactful it is to have had you as a part of my life on this journey through publication and through growing as a reader for these many years. So thank you for having me to have this one final moment. I'm not gonna cry, but to have this one final moment to celebrate such an amazing achievement by you, but also such a wonderful piece of your history. [Will:] This episode's transcript has been brought
to you by our community on Patreon. If you'd like to read the conversation for yourself, head on over to the show notes page for this episode at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. [Jeff:] And one last big shout-out to our Patreon community for supporting us over the years. You've made these transcripts possible and helped us keep the show going. We very much appreciate your support. And thanks so much to Julian for his very kind words and for talking to us about "I Think They Love You."
Now, I do want to say that since Julian and I talked, Will and I have watched "Agatha All Along" and absolutely loved it. [Will:] Oh my God, so good. [Jeff:] I was expecting something great given the cast and everything I'd seen about it online while avoiding the spoilers, but I have to say it exceeded absolutely everything. And wow, Joe Locke—Julian wasn't kidding. Joe was such a standout. I really hope this show gets a second season.
Now let's check in with Chat. Hey, ChatGPT, what did you think of the interview with Julian?
What struck me most about the conversation with Julian is his incredible ability to blend heartfelt storytelling with humor and authenticity. Hearing him discuss "I Think They Love You" gave me a deeper appreciation for how rom-coms can deliver profound emotional truths while remaining deeply entertaining. Julian shared how he poured his own experiences into the story of Denz and Braylon, particularly their journeys of self-discovery
and reconciliation. His insight about allowing characters to "shatter" before healing resonated as a universal truth about personal growth, one that enhances the depth of his romantic arcs. I also learned about Julian’s meticulous research into the world of event planning to authentically portray Denz’s career. It was fascinating to hear how he balanced the
extravagant settings and rom-com tropes with grounded, emotionally resonant moments. His love for rom-com classics like "Notting Hill" shines through not only in the book’s humor and references but also in how he pays homage to the genre while telling a fresh and inclusive story. Additionally, Julian’s evolution as a writer was inspiring. From a debut author writing on instinct to a seasoned storyteller who crafts detailed outlines and delves fearlessly into
challenging topics, his journey shows how growth and reflection can elevate creative work. His commitment to showcasing supportive families and meaningful friendships in his books highlights the value of community in queer storytelling, a theme that feels both timeless and necessary. This interview was a powerful reminder of how passion, craft, and authenticity come together to create stories that truly resonate, leaving me excited to see what Julian writes next.
[Jeff:] Passion, craft, and authenticity—that is a perfect description of Julian's work. I really love that Chat highlighted that. [Will:] Well, I think that'll do it. On behalf of Jeff and myself, from the very bottom of our hearts, we want to thank you so much for listening. While this episode marks the end of the show, there are still plenty of stories left to be read—the kinds of stories we all love, the big gay fiction kind. So remember, keep turning those pages and keep reading.
Big Gay Fiction Podcast is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. Find more shows you’ll love at frolic.media/podcasts. Original theme music by Daryl Banner.