Hello and welcome to Big Gay energy. I'm Bree. I'm Fiora and I'm Caitlin come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media representation matters. And we're here to talk about it. Hello everybody, we are Beyond thrilled to have today's guest with us. They are the co Creator writer director, producer of the very important television series. Welcome to hey, guys, it's so nice to be here. It is so amazing to have you here.
We've been trying to get this for a while we're so excited to talk to you. Oh, it's a total pleasure. And yeah, I think some fans of your podcast, reached out to me on Twitter and we're like you should really do this and I was like, great, I will I will follow your command. Yeah. We love our fans. Yes, we do. I say, as we now have some anyway, we've been talking to crew of various TV shows and just basically introducing our audience to different jobs
behind the scenes. Now, you have, probably one of the biggest jobs. What does a co-creator and showrunner do? Well, that's a really good question. It's different depending on the show but I think you know what being Showrunner means, is that sort of the buck stops with you creatively when it comes to all the creative elements of the show, whether it's the scripts or the casting or hiring directors, or ultimately, kind of what it's delivered in the head.
It's and then also, you know, very often that person but not always, that person is also the person who who created the show. So in the case of me and Abby with league and also Desta ref who's really We integrally involved in the entire process, it sort of meant seeing it through, you know, it's there like insane job where you have to have the crazy Creative Vision and then you have to solve like 1 million tiny problems on the way to actually making it that like it's just
insane. The number of things that there are Yeah, it sounds like stuff. I mean it seems like things will just pop up left and right that you have to kind of put out fires. And yeah, I've always loved that
combination, you know. I think if I just loved the sort of creative imagining part, like I'd be very tempted to write novels or something where you don't have to deal with the rest of the world, but I kind of love that intersection of, you know, you have this crazy idea and then it's you And a couple people sitting alone in a room and then suddenly you're on a baseball field and it starts raining halfway through the day and everyone is like, oh God, what are we doing with the rest
of the day? What does this mean about the schedule would have? You know the Wardrobe is wet. Now we have to eat. Oh, and it's I guess that intersection of sort of having ideas that you really want to share with people and then kind of pulling together this this sort of incredible and very Very large group of talented people to make it happen. It's amazing. I can't even imagine the hours spent just getting everything
right? So. Well, I don't know if you always get everything right, you know, sometimes like your idea of rate changes or is even like bettered by something that happens that you didn't imagine or an idea that an actor has or or something else that happens. In the unfolding of the scene. So ultimately what you're seeing on screen is really the work of an enormous team. Is there anything that was supposed to happen? But changed for the better. Oh, gosh, yes.
I mean so many things, you know, I think like the most obvious example for us, is we had a lot of actors who are really skilled improvisers and that starts with Abby, but it's also definitely true of Darcy. And by me so like de Mello who plays Clans who's also a writer on the show is like one of the funniest improvisers that Ever worked with and is also like British. So she's doing English, he's improvising in an American accent, which is insane.
You know. But then like, you know, the the baseball sequences are another great example, where we have these incredible, real players that were working with Justine Siegel who's our coordinator for baseball was the first woman to ever coach under Major League staff and their jerseys in Cooperstown. And you know, the way that that Ed's and her perspective and the real players who were playing
the baseball players. You know, brings so much to it, but also there's something incredibly fun and I think this mostly comes through when I'm directing where you're like, okay, something happened in the day, suddenly we have two hours to get this scene. We were supposed to have five hours for. So, what's the like, really beautiful idea that captures, everything that I need to capture? That's maybe like a little simpler and more elegant than than what I had in mind.
All right, let's just push forward here. So do you pitch the show? And then give up the rights to your production company or network. Like, how does that work? If they cancel a show just like, curious about like the background of this stuff like not necessarily for a certain show? Just, I mean in general, since you we've been having a lot of like, A bit of experience, just a bit. And we like, did an episode about this kind of stuff from all the shows that got cancelled in 2022.
Yeah. So it really depends on the show, but in the case of League, Sony has the rights to the movie. So they have the rights to the show, their the studio Amazon, which is the network distributes it, right? So Sony retains the rights, no matter what. They have What's called the underlying material, which in this case is the movie. Speaking of the movie, yeah. What was the process for? Adapting it into a series and getting it up.
All over the place. I think, you know, we loved the movie and we grew up on the movie and I think every person involved in the show has a slightly different relationship to it for me. I sort of found it as like a little queer kid who wasn't surrounded by queer content and was playing a lot of Little League. Baseball, which my dad made me do is probably a little bit too strong of way of saying it, but like strongly encouraged me to do, and I sort of felt undercover as like, a boy on the
team. And I was like, you know, I didn't have any words to describe what I was feeling but like, OG, you know, kind of felt like, oh, no, I'm going to get found out. And, and there was something about the movie that kind of Just gave you the feeling of like, oh, it's okay to be on the field.
Even if you don't look like or sound like her act like the what people expect to find on the field and then a few years ago I started looking into the real history behind it and you know sort of I think had the feeling that there was probably a really
big and important chapter. We are history underneath it and then the more I looked the more you find and you know the the most obvious thing was the stories of African-American women who weren't allowed to play in the league, but players like Connie Morgan Tony Stone, maybe Johnson and you know their lives of others who maybe didn't get as far who went on to play professionally in the Negro Leagues and you know even Penny Marshall I think has said publicly and she certainly said
to me in a be like oh that's a story that I really wish that I had gotten to tell and then beyond that, there were these stories of queer women who sort of Had to make themselves look like something they weren't or give up certain parts of themselves in order to get that opportunity. But at the same time, the way that Darcy cards character says in the pilot like they kind of got to rob the bank.
They got these opportunities to make money and have a team and become a different version of themselves. And in some cases, get independence from a lot of the structures that were We're sort of common for women at the time and and so you know, is incredible. Just personally, an incredible life experience kind of growing into all of that research and getting to know a lot of the people involved and pretty early on in the process.
Abby and I already knew each other a little bit in New York, and I was kind of talking to her about what I was thinking about doing, and she got excited about it and we started talking about it. Either. And, and it really, you know, came from the both of us from the start. That's great, our third host, for a big, a energy grew up with A League of Their Own and loved it. And she was with telling us about the show before. So early on she was so excited.
She couldn't be here today, but I just want you to know how much this show has meant to her as well. I mean, obviously it touched so many people, but to see her get so excited about this show. It made it made it even better for us. So what do you think Fred? Her excited about it. Anyway, I think that she she and I both grew up playing sports and Being queer and playing
sports. Yeah. And I know that she and I had a lot of similar experiences where we felt like we had to kind of the undercover in some ways, especially me, considering where I'm from, but I know that it meant a lot to her just to see something from that meant so much to her, is it as growing up as a kid somewhere that she could go? And just see this warm kind of welcoming special movie and then see something that was even more
representative. On TV at a time when we were feeling like daggum, all of our shows are getting cancelled, what's going on? And then the show comes along that just shows, you know, so many aspects of what we were looking for that. I think she just couldn't couldn't be more excited about it. I think it's really taken a place to surf as one of her favorites. Well, Thank you. Thank you. And thank her for that.
Anything, that's a lot of what, you know, I think again, Abby would have a slightly different perspective and so we destined that sort of the soul of the show in a lot of ways. For me, I think, what's been incredible about it is something really similar, sort of putting yourself back in the story. And finding yourself in stories that feel familiar and League of Their Own is a movie that we sort of think of as like a classic with a lot of Americana in it, right?
Which it really is. And then the fact that that story really in reality centers, queer women, and queer people, and queer people of color, is it makes you think about yourself a little different, you know, and the idea that we don't, In a
world that's perfect for us now. I mean, that's an understatement on so many levels, but I think it's an act of heroism is queer people to, to find joy in that world and to make lives that are full of meaning and fall in love with the people that you want to fall in love with. And just the idea that you know, our history while there's a lot of tragedy in. It isn't only tragic and that people have always been fighting that fight and found a way to have really joyful.
A full lives, despite the adversity yet to me that you know, personally has really meant a lot. That whole thing could just be a quote you just know like that. Pretty much summed up everything that I felt in and I feel like in an even better way than I could think it's oh Yeah, absolutely. But speaking of it being awesome since its release like their own has been recognized by the Human Rights Campaign.
Several cast and crew members have been nominated for awards, what do you think sets early get their own apart from other? Queer shows, boy, I don't, I don't know.
I mean, first of all I I like celebrate the queer narratives in the show and then also the this is a show that hopefully speaks to all kinds of people and people can find themselves in the same way, you know, Camille and Johnny said it really well where he was like I've been as ever since I was a kid watching stories that send her straight white men and not even thinking about it, you know, just sort of putting
myself in the story. So I think in a lot of ways, this show, you know, there's parts of it that are a love letter to queer people. There's also parts of it that are invitation to not queer people. To just step into our shoes and are y. Road and enjoy this story that really is universal.
I think in terms of what makes the show stand stand out, I guess I would say I think we're more standing on the shoulders of other career shows and trying to build on some of what they've done but also really standing on the shoulders of the real stories and the real women who had those experiences. Has and played played ball and everything else for me, the thing that makes it different or special just from shows in general is that sense of Joy underneath it.
And even the really hard Parts, you know, for this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't watched the show. But the bar read things like that, which came from, you know, real stories of people that we are friends with. And And talk to you that that it's told through a lens that at the end of the day, it's worth it to still live as yourself and play. The sport that you love, but but not give up the parts of yourself that Society doesn't
necessarily support. So I would say it's like the joy to me that really is the thing that I love the most, in the show sort of Joy without looking away from the hard things. I lost my train of thought. I am so sorry. Okay happens to me cuz if you take a th I remember now. So not only Like A League of Their Own doesn't just allow you to like see yourself because of so many diverse storylines.
I feel like it allows people to learn more about others and how different experiences can be. Especially when you compare Carson and Max. Because like two different both want the same goal. But it's an interesting juxtaposition. Yes. And I think that's just incredible.
Yeah, it's a, you know, we talked about the sort of pilot which is the inciting incident for the show, sort of being a moment where a door opens for one person and it doesn't open for another person just based on their race. And the social construct around that and and what that meant at the time, and that's very much based on real events. The the scene we're maxing Let's go to try out for the league in.
The pilot is, is very close to what happened to me me Johnson and her friend Rita when she tried to try out for the league and made me looking back on her. That sort of chapter in her story was like, well, when I played pro ball, I didn't have to wear a skirt. There was something kind of bad ass in that knowing that we didn't want to minimize the
effect of that. But We also wanted to, to position that scene and that event as not defining for Max and she's going to find her own door and her own world. Even if she has to make it herself which I think, you know, it was heavily influenced by me, Connie and Tony Story, heavily influenced by a lot of our writers and ultimately Max this story is about Out, you know, the shows about teams different kinds of teams, right? There's a team that you play
with on the field. There's also a team that kind of gets you to the fields, right family or a chosen family friends. And so Max's story, you think we took as an opportunity to sort of explore both sides of that. But it is something that I think people it was one of the biggest sort of structural, I guess risks in the show.
Like there hasn't really been a show that is structured in exactly that way before with these sort of parallel stories that intersect and these kind of side-by-side worlds. And and that was it was an incredible challenge engine, incredible privilege, you completely nailed it. Yeah. Well, I think the experience of making something and I'm guessing you guys and a lot of your audience are probably creative people too.
So you know, the feeling of when you've made something and I see like every tattered Edge and every I'm like, oh, that happened because of that and know that moment and I don't know if we got that right? But it's wonderful. A when other people don't see that and when they bring themselves to the show and make it mean something to them, like that's something that Ultimately doesn't come from us.
It's like we build a house and we let people into it and people decide whether they want to live in the house and and it's just been incredible. Watching how much, how much the audience and the fans of the show have sort of let the show into their lives. I've never had an experience like that before. Well, I'ma tell you right now, I'm sitting on the couch, eating some chips. So I'm going to be here for a while in the house. I'm really glad feel free to the house is working.
It's like it's wonderful. It's gonna put it that way. I'm so glad. Yeah, it's such a strange feeling. You know, when you think it was really for years, four and a half four years, something like that of of living with these histories and exploring the ideas and working with Abby and working with other writers and everything. And then there's sort of one day where you're like, okay, here it is. And then you're like yeah, that's been inside your head for so long. Is that in lie?
Like it belongs to other people and it's really wonderful that experience. It's insane. How long like these shows take to get developed and actually put out there and I don't think anybody realizes that. So I was like four and a half years, you said. Yeah. And In fairness they don't all take that long. This one went through a bunch of twists and Turns and and different chapters along the way and it still is going through different twists and turns and
chapters. You know it was it was never going to be easy because of the movie because of the stories because of the complexity of what we're trying to do.
So I've I've gotten to a place where so like quote the Tom Hanks line from the movie like I just embraced the hard and like the heart is What makes it great and and, and that's been, you know, a part of a part of the journey, the whole way along, but also I wouldn't change it. Meaning, you know, the great thing about that development process, was that, by the time, we finally showed up on set, we really knew what we wanted to do. It's great.
You talked about talking to the actual people and hearing their stories. Why is it so important to accurately? Tell their stories of just queer people and people of color in general from the 1940s?
That's a great question. I think, you know, on the one hand just like for me personally I would say those people and Maybelle Blair is obviously someone who's Publicly and came out around our Premiere at the age of 95 but there's lots of others to they've really come to mean something to me and to all of us. So you wanna you want them to see themselves in the show and at the same time and I think this happens with a lot of shows that represent historically
marginalized group. There's the additional pressure of we don't get a lot of shots, you know, TV doesn't we don't have 27 different. Lesbian cop shows on TV or film,
that is so funny. So I think you know what happens in the writers room in the Making process is when people from those groups are involved, you feel that duo pressures of of wanting to really represent your experience and be authentic and and then knowing that like you, you're incredibly lucky to get to do it at all and you really want to make something
out of that opportunity. And I would say like Telling telling these stories now, you know, when I grew up which I graduated from college in 2003, like we didn't have there was like nothing about queer people in the like sex, ed, but there was no like History unit that focused on queer history. Obviously like people of color, black people, especially black women like large parts of that history.
Including a lot of what happened in the The factories in WWII have either been lost or edited out or Dean to not be as important. So getting to tell some of those stories in a way that people can see themselves in it, and it's joyful and fun, and a comedy. And at the same time, it's maybe giving them a story that they didn't have before. I think that's part of what we felt. Like we were getting to do with the show, you're actually
keeping their stories alive. Making sure people don't forget them. Yeah, I mean that that is the Hope and and I love you guys probably know this. But like I love the history and the real anecdotes that we find along the way and it's been so fun, even on social media, just to watch people, like oh start to like order some of those books and learn a little more about the history underneath it. You don't have to you don't have to know any of that to enjoy the
show. The shows basically like a good time and a lot of it is It's such a it's just the most of the spirit of it is pretty fun. I think the the sort of what I think is important about the show. Hopefully speaks with a little bit of a quieter voice where it's not saying like this is important, you should care about this but it's just bringing you into that, that world. It's very interesting because you do get like, this is important, not like directly, but especially with there being
so much comedy. D. The balanced for you to be able to do. That was just insane. And also it being a comedy and itself is amazing because we don't have enough comedies. Yes. Like, totally, we don't and, you know, that, that's something that's so amazing about the movie, which is in some ways they think we're the tone of the show. Sort of, it's not that it's the same, but it's sort of it definitely grew from there,
right? The movie is, it said, In the middle of World War Two, historically of dark time. Not not often the place for the funniest comedies, and it's also just well, what was that? Sounds like there's like a tiger on the go, so, so yes, it has. We is that Sophie? Comedic, the sort of balance of the comedy and drama and the, the the movie has that you can sort of Imagine The like Oscar
bait version of the movie. It's a little more like capital, I important and instead like, Penny told the story in this beautiful human really funny way with these iconic and really flawed characters. And and I think that's part of what has made the movie. So long-lasting is, is that sort of comedic approach? But I also definitely feel like and and, and again, Abby your desks or any of the other
writers make put it differently. and I feel like I discover emotion in comedy and I discover comedy in some of my most emotional moments and it was really something that in developing the show Abby and I looked at each other and we were like well we don't want to Sometimes they think when you have a show that has a balance of both, you sort of you, wind up being in the middle, you know, it's like the comedy is not going to be too absurd and the emotional Stakes won't be
too heavy. We were kind of like, we're instead just going to really go for it on both sides. Oh, you did. Yeah. And see what happens, a plus, but it was also a place just to say it that Don't always in television. Now get to make a pilot for the show and the fact that we got to make a pilot, we got to see the tone and we were like okay and we could kind of adjusted a few degrees and go from there. I think that gave us the confidence to really go.
So you did start out with a pilot not like a full season order. No. Yeah. We started with the fact that we actually wrote a, you know, in terms of what those four years where we originally receive the show as a half hour, we wrote a season of the half-hour show, and then I think Amazon was like, well, we're never going to be able to afford. This show. Is a half-hour. It should be an hour. We were like, okay, great.
Maybe you could have told us that before hand and then you need a pilot for the, our version and then wrote the our version. So that's what I mean, where it's like, we really got to live with the characters and refine them in a couple. Frame formats and a couple different sort of drafts in a way that you don't always get to do on TV. But also it's fun for fans of the show to know that there's another version of season. One out there. Somewhere seems on people's
computers hackers. Yeah, I don't think it's going to get that. Why is it our cheaper than a half hour? That was my question. I mean, the economics of hour-long television are different partly because you can Syndicate, the more and partly because ours are basically, we're sort of the Big Show's tend to go. Not, not all the time, but so hours in general just are sort of meat at a higher cost per minute, if that makes sense. Gotcha, then half hours,
usually. But I don't, I mean, the real answer is like, I'm not sure, that's just what happens. We just got more and I'm not Complaining. Yeah, don't don't, complain Caitlin. I think, I was curious. There's a huge difference. Yes. Okay, Haley. So, I have a question when you guys cast Rosie O'Donnell, that was such a freaking wonderful, homage to the movie that and was that something that you guys like wanted to do from the beginning? And is there a possibility for
more cameos? There's certainly, if there are future Seasons, they certainly is a possibility for more cameos and the way that the rosy thing came about was was really wonderful. I mean, I think we are originally, sort of I've set out saying, well maybe we'll do kind of more direct links with the movie at some point. But first we really want the show to stand on its own.
So we were sort of developing the Ark of the season and Abby knew Rosie. I can't completely remember how but they've gotten to know each other and Abby was like I was thinking maybe I'd ask her come to come to the writers room and talk to the writers and we were excited and nervous. And all the things because they think at that point really, you know, no one really knew what we were doing and we came in and we started Rosie came in and we pitched sort of the ref season.
She was like, I like it. You know, here's what I think and then she was like and, you know, something that I could do is like in this gay bar. Maybe there's a person like this that and she sort of pitched us a little bit like what what she wanted to do and we were like, yeah, that that sounds great. So like every other part of the show, that was a real real collaboration and it was such a joy.
You know, she was in my episode that I wrote and directed and was just like such in that episode. There was a lot of moments where I really like pinched myself about what we were getting to do and that was definitely one of them. and if you come in here, Bri because of her Mike, she said I can imagine Don't sue me. All right, we'll see. So the next question is from Fiora and I want to make sure to read it forward forward because she wrote this out.
So one of the most incredible episodes in the series, I believe it's 6, which is an episode, you directed. There seems to be a lot of subtle references to The Wizard of Oz throughout the entire episode Carson is asked, if asked, if she is a friend of Dorothy, both Carson and Max. Across through curtains when entering queer spaces, the golden Lighting in parts, house is like the yellow brick road.
Where these choices comparing Dorothy, entering oz to the characters entering a whole new world. Yes. I mean first of all thank you
for that question. You could watch that episode very closely which is it was you had to like just take a moment after the episode we had to tell you called because a while yeah well that that's amazing again that she sort of let it mean something to hurt and yeah I mean you know obviously Wizard of Oz is a huge reference Send and sort of part of queer storytelling or there's a lot of queer inferences Into The Wizard of Oz. And then it has the historical
reference of like, friends of Dorothy, which like, nobody exactly knows if that really came from The Wizard of Oz. But it seems like it must have somehow and we early on in the writers room and talked about using a movie As a parallel and, and sort of framing one episode with a movie and The Wizard of Oz jumped out to me for all the reasons that we're talking
about, right? And the idea that like the answers inside, you all along as Dorothy, says, in The Wizard of Oz and that, you sort of have to travel someplace completely new in order to find yourself. I think we're the Kind of the Touchstone thematic pieces that obviously really resonate with what Carson and Max are both going through in the episode in their own specific ways. I'm really glad she noticed the curtains. I spent a lot of time explaining how why the curtains were important.
But at the same time, you know, in basing the episode on The Wizard of Oz, we sort of wanted to Both celebrate that as a text in a set of references for the time but then also interrogate it in a way because obviously The Wizard of Oz is like you know, is sort of well I guess just say the cast is entirely white and clients in the show sees it really differently. Then Carson does or value. Does right?
So and that really came from be solely, Camilla who plays clients who also sort of wrote or sort of spontaneously generated claims his big speech about Dorothy in The Writers room. And so we wanted to really play play the two sides of that reference and and celebrated in question it at the same time which I think is very much in keeping with the spirit of the show in general. Only a different color. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I want to get, it's been who came up with it, so it sounds like I'm celebrating a line that I wrote, but but she's like, she's not even paying them, making them go on a magical adventure and it's the factory, and the extra hours, she's having to work supposed to because she's volunteering. The war and, you know, is Dorothy like a nice person trying to find her way home or is she like a horrible dictator is sort of like the question behind it.
I love clients so much. That's like one of the characters that are related to so much because I will go in those rants about media. And I absolutely adore classes obsession with comic books, I really do.
I do too and I'll say there's not a lot of things in the show that like the show has a lot of layers in the sense of like, you know, the writer would do a pass at something and then I would do a pass and then Abby would do a pass and then we would do punch up so at the end of the day you're like whose idea was this. This is what did I write in here? I can't, I can't really remember but I put glances the story in
the pilot about how clean spray. It's a letter to Wonder Woman sort of like ranting at them, for what they're doing her character. And instead they publish like a for sentence version of the letter, that's just like great job happened to me when I was a kid. I wrote like a very long critical. Say to and sent it to X-Men and the healing and just printed like a force in its thing, that was like, Hey, I really love the
issue. And so that was, it was a little thing that I put into the character that I'm not as Brave or smart or many other things as Clean Cities, but it like, it helped me really to hurt the surgery. Think it's my gosh. That's awesome. Things like that happens. Yeah, but what was your beef with X-Men? Honestly, I can't really remember feeling as an adult. You look back.
And you're like, yeah, I wrote them probably like A three-page Treatise and their letters Pages like one page long and, you know, they're, they're just probably very nice 20-somethings who are trying to do their job. But like what I really felt at that moment in my life was just this real sense. Like how is this? Okay that I think is like I
don't know. The the intensity that people feel about stories and the idea that clients, you know, can't exactly figure out how to find herself in this world. So she's figuring out that through through living in this imaginary world in her head. It's very much how I felt as like a young queer person wears. Like not really sure how to do
any of this. Yes, I'm gonna go in here for a while in comic books and and the X-Files and that was me and Buffy. Oh yeah, I mean but he's incredible and and it's how it's what I think about when I make things now to is like you're making that experience for people so it's like I always got to ask myself the question like where are you? Taking people. That's like a fun. One Journey or an adventure and then what are you? Kind of giving them to take back
with them if that makes sense. Oh yeah, that's it. That's, it's like one of my favorite things about media and general, but speaking of like seeing yourself We recently spoke to Julie Robinson about how impactful Uncle Burt was with, Max is exploration of gender expression. How was that? Whole narrative developed, it's a great question. And so the real truth is it's a
really good example sorry. It's a really good example of kind of what I was saying before where like people's perspectives and ideas get piled on top of each other and what basically this is a long-winded way of me saying I can't exactly remember how Uncle Burt first entered the narrative but one of our writers whose wonderful and fantastic He sowed ophea who also wrote on
the Chinko and is a playwright. When we were first meeting with her, she talked about how she had done a lot of work in her own place on genealogy, and sort of family experiences and how they're passed down. And we knew enough about Max it at that point, to know that Tony and Edgar her parents were going to be a really big part of her story. And I think something in that conversation made us feel like, okay. Let's spend a minute and Really
imagine the bigger world. That Max comes from and what the story of her family has been as part of the Great Migration coming up from the south and how long they've been there and Edgar's lived in town longer than Tony. And and in doing that, I think we we started to talk about how you first find queerness. And we knew that for Carson, she was going to start to find it on this team.
And we also knew that in a story, the sort of role of the team especially in the, the sort of first chunk of the season is, is taken by her family, that sort of team that gets you to the field. So, we started to talk about like what are those mirrors that you start to find in your own family that it first? Maybe you you think? Oh, that person's exactly like me. And and in reality, of course, they're not because no one's ever a perfect mirror of your experience or your own Journey
with gender or anything else. But we wanted to develop a really positive relationship for form X in that sense. And I think we then started to research trans stories from the time and their incredible stories there. About the factories about people passing, you know? And, and again, just that reminder that people have always sort of experience gender really differently and trans. People have always existed in non-binary.
People have always existed. And yeah, our society in our vocabulary is maybe starting to catch up to that, which is wonderful, but none of this is new on any level. And, and then lie really brought, I mean, it's really hard to To overstate, you know, we had trans and sort of gender non-conforming writers who worked on the story and helped
shape. It really, really Broad and Patrice who plays Gracie, just brought a beautiful depth and soul and seriousness and warmth and humor to that role. And they also brought this, you know, something that we were really worked on in the writers room but they brought to life in a way that I think was ultimately more.
Then powerful for us than we even thought, which is like the sense that they have a really wonderful life despite all the sacrifices and the things that they give up to have it and just to talks about like how, maybe her favorite moment in the show is like, where Max wakes up kind of hung over after the party.
And, you know, bringing greasier kind of just making fun of her and then have this nice kind of couple moment where they Kiss and that was you know, something that really came from the Patrice. And it's you know, like I said before, it's all a collaboration where you have ideas and then the actors just bring something that ultimately is better. So we were so lucky to have them in those roles. They're amazing. Yeah, they really are.
In the first episode of the show Greta and Carson write a letter to Charlie was that scene? Greta and Carson writing a letter or a b and Darcy goofing around after a few martinis the letter writing scene of was well I was definitely Greta and Kirsten writing the letter but Abbi and Darcy who played getting Carson have known each other for many years.
And I think the feeling of how to like get each other and how it's like poking each other and everything really that that comes through in their performances. And it definitely came through in that scene that scene was shot at the end of a day on the pilot and we didn't have as much time as we wanted to, which always happens. And so it was definitely a situation where Jamie Babbitt who directed the pilot and the next two episodes, kind of set
up the cameras. And it was just like, okay, like do it and she was yelling out ideas and they were doing things and it was great. And I think that sort of sense of fun and immediacy comes through in the sea. Yeah reminder me. First of all it was so it was perfect and it also reminded me of things that I've done with my with my friends or people that I've just met, even when you get into it, the situation like that, where you're throwing together, it is. Yeah.
Well it was also, you know, it's a moment for Carson where she looks at Greta and she's like, This person is courageous and strong in a way that I don't know how to be, but I but I know that I kind of need to be, which I think is part of why she latches on to her at that moment. Not knowing that there's a lot of pain in the back story and a reason why Greta is that way. Switching, gears a little bit.
You have another Amazon Prime show premiering on March 3rd called Daisy drones and the six that is correct. Can you tell us a little bit about that one? That shows like league has been a long time in coming? It was delayed for covid. It's based on a book by Taylor Jenkins, read, which is wonderful, and romantic, and sort of takes you behind the scenes.
Scenes of one of the greatest albums of all time and a band that came together, recorded this album generated a lot of rumors and then broke up and nobody knows why. And for me, the fun of that show, one of the fun parts of that show was getting to kind of go on the bus with the band and really be on that journey and on that rise with them.
But also You know, Scott neustadter who I ran the show with and I think in different ways, they're both sort of obsessed with the music of that time and and getting to really make an album that speaks to those albums that we love with an incredible group of musicians, has been so much fun. So the show comes out on March 3rd. We're incredibly excited for people to see it and nervous, all the other things. Yeah. I'm sure it's going to be great. All your work is amazing.
And I don't just say that because we're talking to you. I mean we really do. We love we suck at lying about stuff like that. I promise. But that's a miniseries correct. Yeah. It's a, it's a 10-episode miniseries. So like that's it. Well, I mean, never say, never we'll see how the show does and if people sort of move into To the house and, and make something out of it.
Like, they have with League, you know, maybe there's a way to continue a bit at the moment, were not thinking about anything besides just putting the show on. Yeah, I was just wondering if you think like miniseries are better than shows at this point because renewals are like so hard to get anymore. Yeah.
I mean there's definitely a part of me that looking at the way that people are using data and metrics and especially when you're telling us, Story with female protagonist people from historically, marginalized groups and there's something wonderful about just getting to end this story and then not go through that process. But at the same time, you know there's something amazing about living with characters for three seasons and and essentially having them be part of your
family. And and ultimately I think they're both. Satisfying to do in different ways. So, We hear you have another series on The Works called Nigerian princess that is writing. That's a series that I'm producing the Z-Wave Houma. Do who you guys probably know created and is starting it and it's been like so fun to to get to help her sort of make her world and figure out a version of her scripted sensibility. I really can't. Wait for people to see it. Does it have a release date yet?
Or is it still don't have it of? We just turned in the second episode and hopefully we'll be able to start shooting at sometime this year so I'll keep you guys posted. Do you have any advice for people trying to break into the industry and how to tell underrepresented stories? Well first of all for people trying to break into the industry. I think the thing that I would say is like start to really cultivate your own process, like the industry parts of it are always going to be hard.
Whether it's getting a show made, getting it renewed, getting representation getting somebody to read your pilot, you know? And so I think what you really have to do is, is figure out what your work means in your life. And figure out a routine that really supports it and then you have to be doing that work every day or whatever your schedule is, sort of no matter what's going on in your life and what's what's happening in the world and what the industry thinks of what you're doing.
You know, you have to sort of nurture your own processes, an artist first, and then I think, in terms of people who are trying to break in, you know, like really, Yourself into your
scripts. Like when we're reading scripts for Staffing, you read a lot of scripts that you're like you know what that's pretty good and like that totally feels like a TV show and then you read one that you're like oh this is really weird and specific and like I don't know, this voice feels different and it's somebody's just going a little bit deeper and writing from their own personal experience or, you know, something that they want to write about. Out. So that that difference is is
really big, you know? And and again I think that's part of kind of a good process in terms of telling queer stories under represented stories. I think you know there's not a magic answer to that it is challenging because audiences of color and queer audiences. As we said earlier tend to watch Which shows with wait, stream, protagonists. And the same is not true in Reverse which creates a set of Dynamics in data and ratings and
everything else. That essentially, I think platforms, a lot of the bias that exists in the world into those metrics. Unless they're looked at thoughtfully with a lot of context. And the thing that I would say, is like first of all, like do It it's incredibly important. The second thing I would say is like have a community. Find the people that you want to work with or that you want to have drinks with who care about the same things that you care about and find a team.
You know, and ultimately that's the thing that I think really makes it possible. That's true. Not that I know from firsthand experience but well, not the that but, you know, about finding a team because yeah, I found each other and it was Awesome. Yeah. Little team. I'm sure it's the same thing for you guys at the podcast, right? It's like you do it partly because there's some joy and doing it together. Oh, that's absolutely.
Wouldn't be here. And so there's like because there's two main reasons is one is, you know, putting out the getting queer media it like information about queer, media out there and then also our family. So, and those things go hand in hand. Hand. So that's awesome. And I'm glad you guys you do. And thank you for doing what you're doing, because it makes our jobs a lot more fun. Yeah, we can't. We're getting close to talking about A League of Their Own. It's gonna be so good for your
non-first. Well, we appreciate it and then hopefully season to do even more. No. No crossing fingers. Yeah, I'm sure we could figure out hundreds of more questions to ask you because, like, we didn't touch the surface on a league of there, and there's just so much in it so much, I can't like it. There's no words. It's just it's an experience. That's that's all I can say.
The show is it really is. Well, that is the nicest thing you could possibly say about it and it means a lot to me that you guys say that. And you know that the fandom around the show, the different fandoms around the show have really embraced it in that way, you know, that's that's why we do what we do and it really matters. Absolutely, I love that. Well, that wraps wraps up our questions for today before we sign off. Do you have any final words for the listeners at home?
I would just say I mean I assume there's a lot of queer people in your audience and usually our face audience. Yeah, I figured there's a couple. Yeah. So I guess I would just say the same way as the characters in the show by sorting out your lives and finding your people and falling in love. Like, there is real heroism in that in a world that isn't necessarily set up for you and we need each other to make it worth it and to make it fun and and everything.
So, you know, it's not the easiest time in the world to be a queer person. Not the easiest time in our country to be a queer person. So take care of yourselves and take care of each other. That's beautiful. Thank you again, for taking the time to talk with us today. We really appreciate it and loved getting to know you better do things like and don't worry, I'm going to get you that list of books. Okay, the snag. But I'm going to get it. I can't wait.
Everyone at home listening. Make sure to check out A League of Their Own and Daisy Jones in the six post review on Amazon will do the latter will be starting March 3rd. Thank you. You goodbye. And with that, we've been big gay energy. If you liked this episode check out all our other episodes on whatever you're using to listen right now. If you're listening on Apple we'd really appreciate it.
If you left us a review, no matter how brief it helps us get into apples algorithm to reach a wider audience. Please feel free to reach out to us. We would love to hear from you about everything and anything you can find us on all the social medias at Big Gay energy pod, or email us. Us at Big Gay energy pod at gmail.com? If you'd like to make friends with other queer media, loving people, reach out to us to join our Discord server. If you'd like to support us.
Check out our merch store or join our patreon for Early Access to episodes, exclusive content and so much more. Until next time, stay safe and hydrate for lesbian Jesus.