Solitaire by Alice Oseman | Big Gay Book Club

Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters, and we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. What's? On the Big Gay Agenda today, Fiora. Today it's that time of month. What time of the month? Yeah. I'm sure to throw people off their game and today our quicker

book is a long anticipated book. We've actually talked about quite a few times on the podcast randomly or some not so randomly when we were covering Heart Stopper. So today we're going to talk about Solitaire, which is really the first book of the Heart Stopper series and honestly, such a beautiful story. And we're very excited to like, get into this one because there's a lot going on. It's so, so, so fun. If you're new to book club and

you're here to join, welcome. In case you were unaware, what we usually do on the podcast is we read the book together. We pick a book of the month, like Solitaire was our book last month, and we read it together and we talk about it in our Discord server like as kind of like an informal virtual book

club. So if that's something you're interested in doing for future book clubs, please follow us on social media where we kind of announce the book and join our Discord where we talk about it and just kind of like have a lot of fun. And we incorporate those discussions into the episodes when we record them like right now. So in case you're unaware, come join us next time for a good virtual book club time. Caitlin left To go join the Discord.

Well, how could I nod that this course sounds like so much fun. It's so much fun. And plus you could just connect with other queers and have fun. And we just talk about everything, anything, mostly pets, so if you're into that. There's there are a lot of pet photos, There's a channel, just. For pets, Just for pets. But it's a. Place to be able to scream about your favorite media or something that happened that you're like, what is going on? Yeah. With other people who?

Think just like you. It's a great time. Also, if you are just listening, you can't see that we have Elena joining us again today. Hello, yes, welcome. She is our resident heart stopper. Alice Osman, extraordinaire, Intelligent. You're our expert. You're something better expert. I think I'm just hyper fixating. I think that's really the proper term, but sure, that leads to expertise. Though yeah. You're on the right track. That's fair. So welcome. We're so excited to have you back.

Yay. Thank you for having me again. It's good to be back. So excited. Other thing, just a little housekeeping thing for book club in general like if you ever want so we've done several book clubs that. Were. Books that were recommended to us by listeners. So if you have a book you'd like to us to cover on the podcast, please let us know. Like tag us into social media post coming to the Discord and we will fit it into our routine.

We're we also are looking for new books to expand our queer little horizon. So just let us know and we'll we'll cover it. We get some great books from suggestions and we've done a few already. We sure have and so just to let you know, if you're new to book club, the format of this episode is going to be in the beginning. If you've never read this book before, that's totally fine in the beginning. We're going to give a little spoiler free synopsis of the book and our little spoiler free

reviews. And then after that, we'll warn you when we're transitioning into the spoiler section when we're going to discuss everything and anything about. This book. Yes, but. Before we get into that. If you are watching. This episode on YouTube Please make sure that you are subscribed you like this video and leave a comment. Your thoughts on the book, on the episode, in life in general, whatever you want. Let us know in the comments if you're listening on podcast channels.

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Because with you following us, joining us, sharing our podcast with other friends and people you know, you are helping us spread the joy of queer content and allowing us to make more for you. And we are love what we do. So please help us. Yes. All right. Now, after you've done your charity work, come back and listen to this episode. Because right now we're going to talk about solitaire. But Alice Osman. Osman. I say it wrong every fucking time. Elena Osman. I think it's Osman.

That's what I've heard. Cool. Every time, Osman. Alice, I corrected. Theor. The first time and I said Osman and then you corrected us in the other one. So now I know it, but now I have to tell theor that I was wrong the first time and my brain won't listen. To be fair to Fiora there. How I have heard, like in interviews, like some of the other cast members of the show have pronounced it Osman. So, like, does anybody actually know for sure who knows it's spelled like Osman?

Yeah, I will agree with that. I think I've heard Alice herself say Osman, if I remember right. OK, that's helpful. I'm not sure we're just we're just. Going to say. The God of the Queen. The Queen, The Yeah. So God, Alice. The. Asexual Jesus our Yeah. Asexual Jesus. You know what you're right. Asexual Jesus Alice, that's what we're that's what we're calling Alice now. OK.

So we actually, I actually did post about this book club on YouTube and we did get get a couple of comments from our listeners that we're super excited about this. So I'm going to shout them out and kind of like read their thoughts now in our non spoilery section. So first time what we got was at that's my Osborne book. I think I'm saying that correctly I hope. Thank you for your comment. This listener said I'd love that

you're doing this book. Just in case you didn't know, it's the first novel the author wrote set in the Heart Stopper universe, but the timeline it comes in the middle of Heart Stopper book. 4. Heart Stoppers, the prequel series to Solitaire. So we covered Heart Stopper volume five that just came out recently. And Book 4 I'm pretty sure is something that it's going to be covered in season three of the show.

So it's really interesting the way this book falls like kind of almost like in the middle of that whole series, which is really interesting. All right. Second comment we got is from AT I just listen to Queer fiction P2195. Love that, handle this listener says I love Solitaire. To be the first book Alice Osman wrote is pretty good, especially Tori's character and her relationship with the people around her, especially the guy with ADHD. Michael Holden, I think is the

name You are a correct listener. That is the name. That's a great column that I love that. Like I think that's the same. I love it. So yeah, So that's a little little synopsis from our listeners of kind of like their thoughts and what what the book is about. I'm going to read the Goodreads synopsis because I thought this was really clever and I actually really like it instead of rewriting it. So this is the synopsis from like, the book cover, I think.

In case you're wondering, this is not a love story. My name is Tori Spring. I like to sleep and I like to blog. Last year, before all that stuff with Charlie and before I had to face the harsh realities of A Levels and university applications and the fact that one day I really will have to start talking to people. I have friends. Things are very different, I guess. But that's all over now. Now there's Solitaire and Michael Holden.

I don't know what Solitaire are trying to do, and I don't care about Michael Holden. I really don't. So that's. The synopsis I love Tori. I love that I don't care about Michael Holden. I really don't. I really don't. I really don't. Sure, girl. Sure. OK. So now we're going to give our spoiler free review of this book. So in five words or less, how would you guys describe Solomon Air? I'm this word limit has been increased from three so.

Yeah. Just saying, well it used to be like a 5 minute ranch so now I'm trying to limit it so this is faster so I'll give mine. Mine is my review of this book is it's funny because it's true. I said cards on the table. If you've read it you might you might get it. I read it and I'm having trouble getting it. That's just my issue anyway, I can't explain or also spoil it. Jump to the spoiler. Section if you want to know more. Yeah, I'm. Intrigued. Caitlyn.

Mine is the dark thoughts written down and I love it. Yeah, Tori goes through it. OK, last part of the spoiler Free review is our Big Gay Energy Scale rating. So this is something we've been doing for a while from our Big Witch Energy days. It's basically a synopsis of how queer we think it is in our own descriptive way. It's super scientific. And stuff. So I would say Solitaire has enough big Gay energy to fill a Michael Holden sized speed skating outfit.

And if you've read it, you know what I'm talking. About. What did I? Put I said so much gay energy that it inspired Alice to go on to write bigger and even gayer stories. AKA yes, and that is very true. Thank Asexual Jesus for that. Yeah, yeah. Mine is that it has so much that it makes people feel seen. Yeah, that's powerful. I love it all. Right everyone. Well, now we've reached the spoiler section, so if you haven't read it, turn this off, Go read it and.

Then come back because. We're about to talk about everything and anything solitaire. All right, Elena, would you like to lead off the spoiler section? Oh, do I? I think your point is first. OK, so first of all, can we take a second to acknowledge this? Was Alice's not only their first novel, but this was published when they first, the first time around when it was published was they were 19 years old. They were still, I want to say, they were still at university when they published those.

And like, and since then, like, this new version is like a rewrite. It's been republished and, like, modified. Obviously. Like, she has matured in her writing since then. So she's said, like, kind of just kind of modify things. So yeah, but yeah, this was first published when she was 19 years old, which is wild. That blows my mind. And the fact that Alice is so young and it's already been republished, like, that's crazy. I'm like, what have I done? With my life like. I know.

You started the podcast. They are. I did. But still that's insane. And and to have then created Heart Stopper, which is it's just this whole the whole universe she created that started from her first book has just impacted so many people's lives. Like that is so special and just amazing. Truly, it has. Like. It's so impressive. That's why she's asexual Jesus. Lesbian no, asexual Jesus. That makes Alice of Magic powers Queen of Queen of Queer Asexual

Jesus, agreed. All of Alice's books are just so well done. It's just amazing that this was the first one too and it it is a very well done book. Yeah. A lot of the things I noted in this book were very early on. Most of it was just trying to let me figure out who Tori is. All I knew of Tori was heart stopper because I read this. So Theo and Elena, I believe, read this before heart stopper. I did not. No, I didn't. Oh, before reading Heart stopper. No. Yeah. No.

I found heart stopper first online. Like way. Oh, OK. I was wrong. Yeah, They just know more than me. I read it for the first. Time This was the first like Heart Stopper universe book I read. Like, I started with hearts. I started with solitaire before I read the comics. Like I found the chauffeurs and then found this.

Book. I actually read a different book of Alice, Alice's book first, which was I was born for this, and then yeah, I found it during the trans rights, read a thon that was going on because there's a trans character in it. It's a really good book. And then I went to. Solitaire after that and I was like. OK, I have a bigger appreciation for appreciation for Tori after reading this. And then went and read the hard stuff for graphic novels. I did it a little out of order.

OK, this was my first time reading this in general. So the first. Thing I noted was in chapter one very early on when she says my name is Victoria Spring. I think you should know that I make up a lot of stuff in my

head and then get sad. And I just thought that that was relatable because I tend to, in one way, either make up things that I hoped that would happen and then get sad, or make up things that in interactions like, oh, this person doesn't like me or like they're they're thinking this and then get really sad. So I think there's a lot of different aspects around this. And. Maybe she really does. Care more than she's letting on.

I don't care, OK? Girl UN unprompted, has to say I don't care without anybody asking. I know in her own Inter monologue. That's my bit right in her brain. Yeah. I think I like I I found I I have a couple of things about Tori throughout this where I just she she she felt very relatable as a person. And a very like. Very introverted human being.

What I love about this particular line too, coming from Alice is like, it kind of sets up the fact that, like, Tori might not be a reliable narrator because you're going to see things through her perspective. And a lot of it's an inner monologue. And she's just saying, listen, I make. Up a lot of stuff in my head so. Like maybe you don't believe everything I'm telling you. So I love that too. I did not get that. That's a really good point though. What is the truth? What is the truth?

And like the actual truth. Really though, because is there an actual truth in life who knows your own and sexual Jesus? The only truth. That's my philosophy. The only truth is your own. Cheers of that. Sure. I don't know. All right. The next thing that I noted was also in chapter. There's a lot of chapter one. Chapter one is there. There's a lot going on. Another thought she has is but personally thinking or talking too much about boy issues makes me want to shoot myself in the

face. Girl. Also. Relate. So relatable, Yes, I really. But not as. That I didn't highlight it because it was relatable. I mean, it is, But I highlight it because I noticed that she was very violent towards herself, so she more so internalizes the emotions rather than like giving it to other people. Like, she doesn't lash out at people, really. She internalizes all of the anger, so she's more like, oh, I'm terrible. I don't like this. So she beats herself up.

And we do see that happen throughout the book, where she blames herself for things when it's not her fault. Like she should not be responsible for her brother. All of these people she should not be responsible for. But she feels like she needs to be there. She's the reason why things go bad. And I it just I want her to love herself. And I'm sure that's how everybody feels about someone in their life that they know internalizes this anger.

It's amazing how similar her and Charlie are in that aspect, like in their own heads. Like Charlie, you see it more in the show, especially like the way that Joe portrays him. It's like he thinks he's such an inconvenience and you never really think about it because Tori obviously is kind of a side character in the she should be on more because she's amazing,

but she will be hopefully. But yeah, to your point, like she has all of that same stuff going on in her head and they don't really talk about it in the show just because she's not the protagonist. But in this book, it really get that full scope of her head. Like it's the exact same thing. It's like, oh siblings. I mean, yeah, her and Charlie are basically the same. And. Both have issues in their own way.

Obviously Tori doesn't have the eating disorder, but she can understand where what he's going through. And I think that makes it even worse for her because when he gets bad again, like she doesn't realize it, 'cause she's going through her own stuff, but she's like, then why am I not able to see that through him? But I think we will get into that in a little bit as well. Yeah, to you guys. Point like I never I never thought about that with the two of them. So it's a really that's

interesting perspective. You both just shared the way they're so similar because usually people who who are very similar. Usually don't get. Along super well, which I think is part of the problem with like their mom. Like I think the mom has some tendencies like that where she's very internal and isn't external with her affection and things like that. So it causes friction with the kids. Mom has other issues but like that.

I think it's part of it. And so it's interesting that Charlie and Tori are like the most bonded of the family members and that's pretty consistent in heart, stopper and solitaire like all of it. So it's really interesting the fact that they're they're so similar yet they're so they have such a strong bond with each other. I think that's really interesting and special with the two of them. Yeah, just. Cute babies. I'm glad that they have each

other, yes. They just need to communicate more together so they don't feel like they need to take care of each other. It's hard. They're learning, yeah. Also. Another thing that I noticed early on was, I mean, she literally says that her and her mom don't like each other, but when she needed to get stuff for sixth form, she had to go shopping by herself because mom and dad were busy. And I know this that this isn't really related, but I really

don't understand why. They say mom but they don't say dud. I think it's like an O like an A to. I don't know. If you're from the UK, leave it in the comments. Why isn't it done? I don't know. That's remembering what? Sorry, OK. But anyway, so she had to take herself and. I think at that. Age. A lot of people go shopping by themselves, but she noticed that they were busy. They're too busy for her. She doesn't feel like she has that support system, so she's

taking care of herself more. And because the parents are busy, I feel like that also puts her in a place of where she feels like she has to take care of Charlie and Oliver as well. Which one of my notes in the book was Oliver Question Mark in the first time that I started reading, 'cause I didn't read the comics at all, He wasn't in volume five. I thought Oliver wasn't volume 5. No, he was. But you had me start reading Solitaire for the first time before we read. Any of our. Stoppers.

And so this the second time I got through 54 pages and then had to restart. And. Then I understand there's just this random 7 year old in their house making a truck, building a truck with his brother a tractor. Is what it is that what it is? Yeah, Who is this? Who is this? Child. I'm like Oliver, where did this kid? Come from I can. Understand why that'd be so confusing, yeah? Oh my God. Seriously.

Yeah, it was. It was quite It's quite interesting to see that she, like, accepts the fact that her mom doesn't like her and she's like, I don't like her either, so it's fine. Because the parents are supposed to. Be there for you and and you're rock. But Tori has to be there for herself and I think that makes a lot of things harder for her. And then but also I was curious because I was thinking about how

it's Tori's point of view more. Is it because she didn't let her mom in or. And it's just her point of view. I don't wonder. Maybe a little bit of both. I don't know. Yeah. Because, like, obviously, like, we know in hindsight while reading like Volume 5A hard stopper, like the mom's been through her own stuff. Like we know that now, but like in this book, you have no idea. And obviously Tori has no idea because her mom doesn't talk about it. So sounds like it might be beautiful.

Basically, this family needs to communicate this. This whole family needs therapy. Literally. I think they. They're actually going to therapy in this? Yeah. They're actually going to therapy in this book slowly. So they're working on it. Yeah. It it it. A lot of their interactions with with the mother. Rita's the mom's very dismissive of the children. A lot of like mom is trapped in her own world and is pretty dismissive of she's always busy with work. Like there's a scene later.

I don't know if we talked about with like Tori's where she's like my skirt needs to be iron. Can you help me? And mom's like put the other one on it. And as far as like it doesn't fit. It's never fit. I I need help and mom's like Tori. I'm not doing this for you like so it's like her needs. Are for you. Right. So like, that's hard to like

that I I am with you. Where I think it's it's there's a little bit of both perhaps because that's kind of clear to be like mom doesn't have time for me kind of thing versus just like, but it could have, you know, started with Tori internalizing everything and not being affectionate toward letting her mom in and then it just like festered into what it

is now. So like, who knows how it started when like Tori was younger, you know, and we know from Heart Stopper that like Charlie seems to have a similar relationship with the mom too, where there's there's there is a, there is miscommunication happening when they're talking to each other. That kind of reads as dismissive in a way, like from mom's point of view. So it might be bit of both. But like, I think mom's personality seems to be consistent with both kids.

So maybe it's not just the point of view, you know? But that's an interesting point. Something I love from Tori. And so chapter one is basically like setting up who Tori is, which is I think why we have so many things from chapter one, because it's just like we're getting to know all these things about Tori from because we don't get to know it in Heart Stopper, which we really need to. I'm really hoping that she gets more. There's supposed to be more.

Yeah, they're so excited. But I get it. She's the side character in there. I totally get it. But so it's interesting to, like, learn things about her because she's very interesting and we're hearing it from her head, which, I mean, she said she's unreliable, but some of the stuff is pretty revealing. So one of the quotes I really love is she says in her brain, I'm a vacuum. I'm a void.

I am nothing. And this is what Tori's inner monologue is after Michael Holden introduces himself to her and asks who she is. That's what she that's how she thinks of herself. So for me, the first impression I got of Tori was like, wow, her mental health is in the toilet. Like, herself. Esteem is in the toilet. This character reads as deeply depressed.

And I think that was pretty consistent throughout the novel, which is something I really loved about the way Alice wrote Tori, because to me, her mental health state felt so visceral, like, so real throughout the book that it was like painful sometimes to just, like, listen to the way Tori thinks about herself. It's so, so, so like dark, you know, It is like you knew exactly from the very beginning that she had mental health issues.

Whereas like you don't get that with CC, like really tries to hide it, but because it's this actual book book and you hear Tori's thoughts, we get to know her better through. This. And then, yeah, it's just, I felt it, yeah. And I thought it was interesting that like, Alice was like, we're starting with depression. Like this character is different. We're starting with it like Charlie goes on the journey of like his mental health decline, whereas Tori, we're just, we're

starting with the decline. Like it was just an interesting Tori's been through like Tori is the epitome. Like if like Tori is the emotion depression and inside out too. Yeah, totally. But does Tori know that? Does Tori? Is Tori aware that she's depressed? That's the real question. Because she says I am a vacuum, I am nothing or I'm a void. I'm nothing. But does she realize that that's her basically saying I'm depressed? I don't think she is. I don't think she's self aware

at the beginning. Yeah, it doesn't sound like it at all. No. Also because their family is not really one to talk about emotions in general. So I don't even know if she knows how to identify. Yeah, What is her viewpoint of what depression is? Because, like, when you're young, it's like depression. And like those mental health things are like such a specific idea in your mind. And so when you hear like trauma, you think, oh, it's big things that happen to you. It's like it can be little

things too. And you learn that as you go. So it's like, does she even know, like, what depression looks like and that it can look like many things? Who knows? Yeah. No, I agree. And I think we'll get into the Michael Holden stuff, but I think that's why Michael Holden is such a big catalyst for her because I don't think she was self aware until she meets him. I have many things to say about Michael Holden but a what a character.

But let's move on to Chapter 2. So something I loved in Chapter 2 is it's the start of Tori's. It's funny because it's true line and she says this multiple times. It starts when she's talking to like her friends and like it's almost like said in like a sarcastic, self deprecating kind

of way. And to me it read as like a defense mechanism where Tori is making jokes at her own expense to hide the fact that she's not quite happy or like doesn't feel normal in certain situations, or it's the depression she's not aware she has. So it's like she's wearing this mask of humor and indifference, like The Void, but to hide the fact that she's deeply hurt or perhaps unconsciously to protect herself if she's not aware that she's like really sad and

depressed. So I thought that was an interesting line to keep coming up, because that type of behavior is very, I found that relatable. You know, that hiding behind humor stuff. And. That's like a character, Corporatori, that comes up over and over and over again throughout the book. It's easier to hide behind humor than to actually let people see what's going on.

Yeah. And Tori also has this perspective where she feels like people aren't people are fake in real life and like people online are more real. So when she's having these, she's usually is thinking these thoughts when she's having real life interactions or says it out loud when she's having face to face interactions.

So I think there's like a bit of dissociation happening with Tori too, where she's like, I feel more like me on the Internet than like in real life where I'm like pretending to hang out with these people I don't really like and I'm with my family and I'm not super happy with them all the time, so. We're Tori. Tori Tori has a lot going on. Tori does have a lot going on and things ratchet up when she discovers Solitaire which is like the name of the book.

So basically the way this goes down is she's in the hallway and sees these post it notes with arrows and she basically follows them and ends up in a room where she finds the solitaire blog on a ancient computer. I think. And I found, I found this whole sequence really interesting because when we when we first like we've kind of established Tori seems very indifferent to a lot of things when we first or

introduced to her. So the fact that she was following these post it notes I found to be a really interesting thing. It almost seemed out of character in a way, because she was so curious that she actually. Did an action and like went. After this thing, it seemed really interesting. And then Solitaire becomes this like mini obsession that she has that ratchets up. As the book goes on. She spends a lot of time thinking about this blog or and eventually like despises the methods they use.

So it's like she's using up a lot of mental energy on solitaire, which is really interesting. Whereas before it was like she doesn't spend a lot of mental energy on anything outside of like her little like cocoon world in her room. So I found that to be really interesting about Tori, the way she's just like drawn to this thing and just really curious In general, though, like she she pretends not to be, but she doesn't care. Yeah, no, not at all. But she's very observant.

You see her, like whenever we see her in heart stopper, she just has her diet lemonade, like literally watching. She's a very curious person and observant. So. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And I think the thing that really made the obsession take root with her, with Solitaire in particular, it's because I think Tori felt seen for the first time in a really long time by Solitaire.

And I don't think she was aware of it until like later on in the book when she starts like literally has like the red string yarn wall when she's trying to piece things together. Because a lot of the things that they were doing were like, she's like, oh wait, Star Wars I used to be. Obsessed with that? Or like a violin.

I used to play the violin, so it's almost like, in a way with Solitaire, she was kind of like rediscovering who she was, like parts of herself she like forgot about or has been neglecting. So I think that's kind of what like unconsciously drew her in and then like kept her hooked, Was like she almost felt this connection because it was like she was seeing parts of herself again, which I thought, I wonder why she connected so much to Solitaire. Hi, Caitlin.

Caitlin was great about an exit. Oh gosh. All right then. In Chapter 3, Tori says this thing where she says I'm more of a blog than a person, and this is AAI also found this kind of relatable. But also like, it speaks to, like her mental state and how she sees herself in the world because she lives vicariously online. Because her real life isn't fulfilling and it feels it feels fake to her. Like she says things like, oh people.

Basically. She says it's quote where she's like, it's not acceptable to say sad things out loud in the real world without people thinking you're attention seeking. And I hate that because she's like, I can express how I'm actually feeling on the Internet, like shouting out to the void of my blog or whatever. And that's cathartic to her. And people respond to her and she's like other people do that. That's real versus like pretending I'm OK. It's funny because it's true kind of stuff.

So I found that kind of relatable where she's like, I think I find people I connect with more on the Internet and. Is that your question? Caitlin yes. OK. I had a question. That I actually thought of while reading it, and I was curious if you relate to Tori as well, with her only being able to find people who are like her online. I wouldn't say only, but there's a higher chance of finding people with niche interests that

you have 'cause you can find. I think online is a way to find community of like minded people, like fandoms for example. And so like you can find that connection, which is kind of like what Tori's journey is. She's like I'm looking for people who are also feeling these sad things that I'm not feeling, 'cause like the real world tells me you have to be happy all the time and things like that.

So I think that is really that is true to an extent, but I think you can you can find people like that in real life. It's just it's harder to be like how do I Google a place that I can go through with sad people that will talk about sad things like you know what I mean? I'd be instantaneous. That is therapy, Theora. I guess you go to therapy. And then you'll find those people. That's true that. Was just funny. Group therapy actually, yeah, that that is how I've been

followed. That's called therapy. Theora Tori needs to go therapy. Oh my God, let's say. I mean the same thing like with fandom for sure. Yeah, like like specifically heart stop resident example. But also like my obsession with certain video games, I'd say like finding people who match that energy specifically for that fandom. Absolutely. Hands down. Like it. It depends on what it is that you're trying to connect with.

Like I've met people in real life now, but I also live in one of the most populated cities in the country now. So that's kind of an advantage that I meet a lot of people who are very passionate about some of things. I am about the same level. But like, you know, when it comes to like my obsession with The Legend of Zelda, I don't really know anybody IRL who will just like, yap with me for five hours straight about how great Breath of the Wild is.

So I feel like, yeah, I mean, it's so much easier on the Internet to, like, go into tags, Like tags are a thing. And so it's like you could literally just go into the tags on Tumblr or AO3 and be like these people here. They like this thing, Let's talk, let's connect. So yeah, I find it very hard to connect with people in real life, mostly because. I tend to share. Things too quickly with people and that's. Not OK. In real life. Trauma dumping. That's what Tori's saying, guys.

That's that's true. That's very true. Not all my stories, apparently, are fun. And I don't. Know when to shut up? Oh my God. So I don't do well with people in real life, but gotta work on it then. I'd rather just go fly and see Fiora, yeah. But. I'm with you guys. I like what you said about people matching the energy level, too, 'cause that's also very true. Like, you might find people in real life or, like, mildly interested, but you're like literally 100.

They're at like 20. So, like, no one's at my level in real life of talking about TV shows. Yeah, no one I've tried. I've tried so hard. The same sees. Which is why we have this podcast now. Exactly. Exactly. Online people. Yeah. So Speaking of people. Who are at 100? Let's talk about Michael. They Michael. Hold. It's always at 100. All right, so let's talk about that. So they do this thing where they, I think the first time they hang out outside of school

is at this pizza parlor. And there's an interesting interaction that happens between Michael and Tori. They're in a group of friends, but he has this moment where he has like a real assessment of Tori and she kind of clocks what's happening, where he mentions out loud, you act like you don't care, but if you keep carrying on like this, you will drown in the abyss you've imagined for yourself. And like, the friends call him a stalker for that comment.

But Michael counters with I'm just observant and like damn, like what he like clocks Tori immediately. Like he barely knows her and just like is like, I see you Tori like for exactly what you're doing. It's just like, wow, right. And he's like saying, oh, I just, I just found you on Facebook and they're like, you're a stalker. It's just like, you do know, like, how easily accessible, like, like on Facebook. Like if you're a friend of a friend on Facebook, you can see

things very easily. And this person's putting out this information by choice, somebody going to your profile and like scrolling through like your history. I mean, yeah, we call it Facebook stalking specifically. I feel like. I feel like there's a reason why we call it Facebook stalking is because it's like, you know, you can go into their profile and it's like you have to make the effort to go look at their profile. But it's like, it's all out there.

Like you made a choice to put it all out there and it's still there. So like, it's not their fault, Your stuff's easy to access and then if someone forgets, they put it online. It's not your. Fault that you found it. Right. Yeah, I I've. Had to deal with a lot of people thinking, I'm a stalker because I it's so easy. It's like literally the first page of Google people.

It's not hard to find out information, but the knowledge that Michael has is more impressive because he is observing and inferring information from what he finds out. And I think this might be the first time someone truly cared about trying to figure out Tori. And that's like an enigma to her, 'cause like, no one's cared enough to try to see her, especially in real life.

Yeah. And I think the big thing, my big take away from this too, is the fact that he says, like, you will drown in the abyss you've created for yourself. Like, to me that's him being, like, clocking her depression. And what I found really sad and interesting about that coming from him is that he just met her and the friends closest to Tori have not. Clocked them about her so. It's one of those things where, like, the people closest to you

can miss this. All the signs of like, a mental health decline, Like even though they're with you all the time, if they're not observing you, like truly observing you, it can be very missed. And it's easy for Tori to like, kind of skate by and mentally decline because her friends are not really paying that close attention to her. And it's more apparent throughout the book when her and Becky start having, like, they start kind of pulling apart from

each other. And Becky's like, we haven't been normal for a really long time. But like, Becky never confronts Tori. The way Michael is confronting her and basically saying, like, hey, I can see that you're spiraling mentally and like, if you keep going down this road, this is going to end well for you. And like, I don't think anyone else in her life who's close to her has honed in on her, not her

family. Like the family's focused on Charlie and his mental health decline is much more obvious now. But like Tori is going under the radar and undergo undergoing like a similar. Trajectory and the first person who sees that is the stranger that just met her. So that to me was really interesting. I know it's a little too mainstream, but I think Tori might like some stuff in the tortured poets department. Well, listen to some Taylor Swift. She would never admit it,

though. She would be like, I don't care. I don't care about Taylor Swift like unprompted, I guess. But like, I hate it here. Yeah. She would binge listen to that song and then be like I've never heard it in my life. That's so. True. That's so true. OK, so all right, so when Michael delivers this line to her and basically calls her out, it gets to Tori and she excuses herself to go to hide in the bathroom.

And while she's in there, she hears this little voice in her head that reminds her to be chatty, funny and normal. And so like again, showing that like Tori is kind of like a. Teeny. Tiny bit self aware that like she's not OK and that she has to almost like remind herself to like act cool in front of other people. Which like is so sad, but also like relatable. Oh yes, very relatable. Like, so relatable. I know this voice very well. And later, when they're alone,

Michael makes this comment. For most people, normal is their default setting. But for some, like you and me, normal is something we have to bring out, like putting on a suit for a posh dinner. So I feel like, in a way, the reason why Michael clocked what's going on with Tori is he's like, oh, that's what I do. Like. It's like he's almost like not just calling her out. He was almost acknowledging to her without acknowledging we're.

Kind of the same. Like, I understand you in a way that maybe these other people don't. So I thought that was really interesting, 'cause like, that's a whole other story of, like, what is normal anyway. But I think it's really cute that this is something they bond over, and I love that he said this to her, it's. It's always. Interesting to see someone like like the same coping mechanisms or dealing with things the same.

Way you do. It's and then being able to connect with them the the current person that I do that with is a toddler, so. Thanks all kind. Yeah. It's like every tantrum. Like, I know exactly what you're feeling, buddy. Life is so rough right now. Like, I will make sure that that cookie is not broken when I give it to you, because I know I would go berserk if someone gave handed me a broken cookie. So it's just nice to connect with someone, even if it's a

toddler. I never even thought of it this way. But like, it's interesting, 'cause they are so similar, but they Michael handles it kind of differently. Like he he puts on such a different mask than Tori does. Tori acts like I don't care, but Michael is all like, I care a lot, but everything is great. I am very he, he's got this very positive energy, tries to exude to kind of mask the pain inside. Whereas Tori is like, I just don't care about anything at all.

I feel nothing. So it's like, it's so interesting, but they're both feeling like the same thing, like so out of place. So it's that is. Such a good point. That is such a good point. Yeah, they're like opposites. They're opposites in how they behave. But like, you're right, the root problem is the same. And what I also love about this too is like, if you think about them, they're, they're young kids, like coming into adulthood, obviously it's Hawaii

book. So like also like what is normal at that age? Like, you don't even you barely know who you are and they're at the cost of where they have to make decisions about like, what do I do after this, like university, do I get a job? And so it's like they feel lost in a lot of ways. So like what is actually normal at that stage? You know. Right, yeah. What is what is normal and what is like what? Adults have told. US is normal because of what media tell.

Like what media tells us or what their parents told them, I don't know. And also like today's age, what is normal for today's era, which is definitely different from 20 years ago because technology is different. Society, societal views are different. I don't know like what even is normal like normal such. I love it. A lot of people are not using the word normal anymore. A lot of people are starting to

like, use the word common. Things are common like especially like I, I, this is I don't go to therapy right now. So I don't like know like for sure if this is like confirmed. But I hear people talk about when they go to therapy, their therapists don't say normal anymore. They say common because to say something's normal is like saying, you know you're you're not, you're abnormal. But to say something is common is like a way of saying you're

not the only one. So I love and I love that that's like a thing Now that's being more normalized is that people say common instead it's like, I mean, I don't know if it's normal, but it's not something that you're the only one that happens to so. Yeah, I think I was. Told something like. I don't know about normal, but it's definitely common. Yeah, yeah. Power of language. I love that. I feel like that's something both Michael and Tori needed to hear. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. They deserve the biggest hug. I hope. That. School. Brought in a trauma counselor at the end. Oh my God. Well, I mean, the school was on fucking fire. I hope so too. Jesus Christ. Wherever they all ended up going had. Some kind of therapist? Some kind of counselor. Literally. Yeah, I was like. We never find out where. I said we don't ever find. Out. What happens to Tori? Do we? Anyway, That's Oh well. Yeah, do I? Don't.

Think so? Current stopper Season 5 Waiting for the announcement for season four? Come on, Netflix. Where is it? There's going to be 6 novels We. Had there has to. Be another season like. You know, Alice said. Alice even said at one point, like in on Instagram. I think it was like at the latest they're going to have volume 5, but instead nothing about volume 6. But she hasn't even finished volume 6.

So it's like, what is? It'll be a while, though, if this season ends with the school on fire. And that's what. The end Oh my. God, I'm just thinking more like, I'm like, how are they going to incorporate that into Heartstop? Or are they going to show the school on fire? I'm just curious. I don't know because they didn't in the comics, so I'm not sure. I'm just curious. Yeah, I don't know. But also like Netflix, if they decided not to have a season four with this fandom, godspeed

to them. Good luck. Seriously, like, you saw what happened with Anne with an E when that got cancelled. Like, that's going to be tenfold that with this fandom. So Netflix is used to angering all on the fans. So Shadow and Bone. Yep. RIP. I'm still not over teenage bounty hunters and I will never be over it, not with that cliffhanger. Oh man. Yeah, it Why did they do that? So, OK, so we never really hear about like, Michael's home life,

obviously. So I don't know how similar he is in the sense of like what kind of role he plays in his family. But we definitely know Tori has like a very caretaker role that she takes on with Charlie, especially like in Chapter 6 when she is with Oliver there at dinner. I think she's just come home. Oh, from the pizza place. They just, she just comes home. They've had dinner. Oliver's done. Because Charlie has. Charlie has to take his time with his. Oliver's playing Mario Kart.

Tori sits down and plays with him, and she doesn't keep track of what time it is for his bedtime, which I mean, she's. Not why should she? Yeah, she's not his mother. She should only be concerned about her bedtime because that's her problem. And the mom comes in like Jane. She comes in like it's past his bedtime. And she's like, that's not really like, she literally says that's not really my job. And it seems like their mom, Jane, she she kind of, I think, Tori says.

She gives her a very blank look, a very expressionist look, doesn't say anything else. But she just stands there while Oliver leaves. And then Tori's like, do you, do you, did you want to say something? And then she just walks away. And it's like, I have to wonder, if not that this is what Tori meant by it.

But like if if Jane took that as like a jab at her saying you're not doing your job as a parent, which is like, I totally, I get where that would be a bit of a stab to the back or whatever. But it's also like expecting your child. Like I have to wonder if that's where Tori's role like that kind of either it's where it started, maybe not.

It could just be where it kind of enforces, where Tori feels like compelled to care more for them, but she's trying to fight against it. And then when she does, she gets that she gets that reaction. So we have to wonder if that's at at the very least part of the influence, where that role, she falls into that role, But also who cares about his bedtime? The siblings are bonding, and that's adorable. Yeah, she's helping him beat Rainbow Road and I I know from

experience that shit's hard. It is. I don't even know what CC they're playing on, but if it's on 200, good, no. I could never, no. Apparently this household is, though, like, they're like aiming to be experts at Mario Kart. I mean, like, Charlie's the expert. Then there's Tori and Port. Oliver is trying to catch up. I think at one point he's like the game hates me or. Something. It was really cute. I can't beat Rainbow Rd. So cute Rd. Adults can't. It's hard.

It's OK, man. But also which one? Because they're if they're playing Mario Kart 8, like the one on Switch, it's like, which which Rainbow Rd. There's like 6, There's like 4-5 or six now and they're all hard. The farm, yeah, there's something with the farm and I don't like that one. Is it the one where the cows walk into the road? Probably. I only know is I always get turned around and it tells me to turn back around. I run into everything and it's

really annoying. I like the cows because you can if you, if you have a mushroom and you go fast, you can hit the cows and they just go flying. That makes me. Laugh. That's really funny. That makes me laugh. Mario Cow tipping? Yeah. Another reason to join the discord, maybe we should have like a Mario Kart party. That was so fun. There's online play. Is there? Yeah. You don't play online. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, you can play with other people.

It's it can be kind of slow sometimes, just loading, but like, you can play online with other people. You have to have a membership, though. But it's like in honor of heart stopper. OK, let's play Mario Kart. Mario Kart. All right. One thing though, I want to comment though about Tori and the mother relationship. I think that another aspect of why perhaps Tori feels responsible for her brother so much.

She's also like the oldest child, so I also wonder if maybe mom expects her to be like a Co parent in a way because like eldest child syndrome and so maybe like the blank stare could also be just like, I don't understand what you're saying to me, You're supposed to. You're the oldest child. You're supposed to just be the parent kind of thing when I'm not. Around. But I also like your yeah, I also like your read that, like Jane also seems dissociated from her family.

So perhaps it's like one of those things where it's like she's processing, you know, the fact that, oh, I'm the parent or something. Like, yeah, it's really hard, 'cause like the the mom is. I think I've said this before when we talked about Hard Summer. But I think Jane is also very much like Charlie and Tori, where she's very introverted, very internal with a lot of things. So it's hard to read her. And she's, you know, older with more experience than the kids.

So I think, like, even Tori has a hard time, kind of like reading what is going on with her mom, too, perhaps, like, and I wonder if the mom has a bit of depression. Oh, no, She has to like, you know, so she's kind of like. You know, she's also like. I don't care what kind of thing. And then here's Tori trying to invoke an emotional response and Mom's like. Not computing, not computing. I got. I try to remember, is it Jane's? Is it their mom's family that is that comes to visit in this

winter. I think it might be. I think it was. I don't think it was. Yeah, I think it. Was. Yeah. Because I know in the books at some point they come in bid, like Charlie's Spanish grandparents come and visit because he, like, fails miserably into Spanish or whatever. So I'm like, yeah, I remember that. I'm like, yeah, I was like, was that the glimpse we got into like her home life? Because like, I know we all know, like after reading Heart stopper, like her parents are.

Yeah, But yeah. And I don't remember if Jane has siblings, if she's like the. I don't remember. Is she an only child? Yeah, I don't remember. We have to look into that. Like, yeah, I don't remember.

Yeah, 'cause if she was I I I don't recall if she if she had siblings and then if she, the older sibling, younger sibling, 'cause that could also like impact this whole scene you're talking about with Tori. Like she definitely has trauma from her childhood, like, and I wonder if like, it's similar. I think she has siblings, cause Charlie had like cousins this winter. I think that we're right there. Oh my gosh, Can you go back and read this winter?

My gosh, Actually, I think you're right. I think that was Jane's family because you're right there. There's multiple cousins, especially because she was so adamant about this. Christmas is going to be normal. We're not going to. And like, they they didn't tell them that Charlie went to the hospital. Like they kept that all a secret. So it's like, I wonder maybe that that sounds about right. Yeah, that sounds, but that's not makes way more sense than

the the father's family. Yeah, like that. Julio's family seems a lot more chill less. Yeah, I was like, they're they're the less stressful family visits and like, Jane's family is the stressful family. Yeah. Yeah, I think that I think that makes sense. But then I don't, I don't recall like, is she the older sibling? Because if she's the older sibling, then that would make sense why she's yeah, we have to go back and read this one to her again. Oh damn, I did. Not read this winter.

I'm very lost. It's. Cute, yeah. Anyway, Chapter 7. Caitlin. Yes, Chapter 7. So Tori has a habit of just saying no to people like no to questions of asking her like how she's doing or something like that. And one of the things she says after saying no is I lie a lot for no reason. And I'm just curious why you all think this is.

The only thing I think of is that I think Tori is having a hard time living in reality at this point because I think it's painful for her because she's unhappy in it. So I think she just it's easier for her to just lie than to be authentic. In real life, I think that's. Part of her problem. So I think that's why she's just like, it's a reflex where she's just like, I just lie about everything now because, like, what does it matter?

I don't care about anything. I think it's part of her, a manifestation of her depression, maybe that has, you know, gotten worse over time, where, like, you lie to conceal, you know, how you feel and also, like, protect yourself. But I think Tore is the point where she's so depressed, where she's just like, I just lie about everything because, like, what's the point? I think that might be why. My. Theory is that she lies so she doesn't have to talk or explain. Things as much.

Because it's a lot to have to explain to people, especially when she doesn't seem to be the one to have conversation. She just says the bare minimum. We see that on the phone with Becky, like she doesn't want to, like talk too much, so it's easier for her to say no or I don't know than actually give an answer, which is fair, like, especially if someone's not, you know, like someone won't understand the answer. You're like that. No, I don't know.

Yeah, I mean. Get Me Out of this conversation. Yeah I wonder like maybe like to your point like just it's easier to just say Nah, because trying to open up if they don't understand I think. I mean, this is maybe just me projecting, but like it could be just like the fear of from personal experience, like having been dismissed. Or like it sounds like what Becky like Becky doesn't understand, so she kind of just shrugs off whatever Tori is dealing with and she doesn't really seem to bother.

And so it was like, maybe there's like this internal fear of like, I I'd rather just her not even know than her know and just go, whatever, because that would be more painful to be dismissed. Yeah, I totally, I think you're

right. And I think part of it, too, that we do get from Tori in the book is that she, she compares herself to Becky. Also like internally where when Becky is having the conversation about all the boys she's into, Tori's having this kind of, like internal crisis where she's like comparing herself to Becky and she's like, wow, this makes me feel like shit because I can't get a boyfriend. Like, I I I feel like I'm failing at life where you're

succeeding. So I think that might be part of it too, To engage with her friend where she feels like Becky's succeeding and I'm failing, I think that also is painful for Tori. So I think it's easier to be like it's funny because it's true and just be dismissive of it versus just like process the way she actually feels about that. In the moment. And a lot of it. She's like, this is ridiculous and stupid. But like, yeah, feelings are

ridiculous and stupid sometimes. But like, that is how Tori feels. And she just is like, ignoring her own feelings. And I think maybe it's a deflection perhaps too, that might be part of it. And you're right. And I think that if perhaps she did engage and Becky did dismiss how she really felt, that would crush Tori. Yeah, because that can be very hurtful. Like, totally like to open yourself to somebody and for them to just. I mean it's it's it is like the fear of being vulnerable.

It's that person's just going to take your heart and just crash it on the floor, like because they just don't care about you the way that you care about them or whatever. It's it's heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Also notice how Tori always like when she talks about Becky, how she feels bad that she's not like Becky. It's always She feels bad because Becky has a boyfriend and she doesn't because she's not like Becky. And it's not because Tori story never says she wants a boyfriend.

Yes, yes, Alice. Alice. OK, what? I don't know if you have this later, but one of my favorite things about reading this book is when I first I read the new edition and when I first read it. There's like AQ and A in the back with Alice, I think. Is there at least the Kindle version it is. Hold on, I have it. Let me look. Hmm. Oh my gosh, wait, there is. Did you read it? Oh my God, it's so good. I just love this Q&A so much.

And they and I think whoever was interviewing her kind of asked her about like Tori and Tori sexuality. And the Alice was like. I had no idea about myself when I was writing this book. She was 19. I had no idea. And then she's like, in hindsight, when I went back and redid the redid the book for the new publication, she was like, it was so obvious to me that. Corey was asexually. Coated As I'm reading, I'm like, wow, damn, I was telling it on myself when I wrote this

character. Yeah, I have no idea. Which I love. It's so endearing to to endear that. Because, yeah, to your point, like, it's very like, OK, Tori, yeah, that's so true. She never talks about Michael in like a he's attractive in the sense of like she's she's drawn to him because of his attraction. It's she's drawn to him and she's very drawn to an emotional level. Like very much. Like personally.

Like gets to know him and sees his feelings and like it just says so much that it's a very emotional level for them. Not at all. I think it's also like intellectual too. It's it's it's not. There's nothing sexual at. All. Coming from BORI like never. She never has a sexual thought like at. All right. Never. That's why, like, it's so funny. I was like, damn, like this character is clearly sexually coded. I didn't even. Clock that when I wrote it. She's so funny.

It is the epitome of tell me you're raised without telling me you're raised literally. And then she said something too out in the in the end because like I think in the revision she made it much more clear that like Michael is pansexual. But she's like, when I first wrote it, I didn't even have that language to describe him. So like that was something she kind of like added in later when she was like kind of looking at the characters through a different lens.

I also thought that. Was really interesting. Because little little 19 year, that's a that's the whole thing. Like this whole thing is a journey. And like, so I love hearing like her perspective of like when I was young and then now that I know more about myself, like this book said a lot about me, which I thought it's great, It's so relatable there to go on. Right. No, I think. It's so relatable. Like it's just, that's why that's one of the reasons I love

this book so much. It's just like it's relatable on like the book and then like how she wrote it or how else wrote it and kind of like looking at it in hindsight. Just I love everything. About it, It's great. But Speaking of Michael and Tori, OK, so let's shoot over to Chapter 12 where they watch Beauty and the Beast together. This is one of my favorite stands for a lot of reasons. Because Tori, as you'd expect from this, like cynical human being, is like fuck Disney Disney movies.

Which like she is the person who'd be like, I hate Disney movies. I don't blame her, I don't blame her. And and also like Michael being the Super +1, you'd expect him to be a super big Disney Stan, which is exactly their dynamic. And he asks her, he's like Tori, why don't you like Disney? And Tori says that she doesn't like that these films are fake, where the characters and the story are, are really perfect. Things don't happen like that in

real life. And Michael's like, isn't that the point of films like to Escape? So I kind of wanted to see what you guys thought about this because I love this discussion of theirs. I I feel like I relate to this whole discussion a lot and see what you guys. Thought about this. If you're asking little me, Little me was very much. I hate happy endings. I don't want people to be happy.

My favorite movie was obscure movie that Brittany Snow did called Hide and Seek where it the ending is just so brutal. There's a lot of death in it. But anyway, like that's what little be like. I made the ending of the boy in the Striped Pajamas even sadder. Oh my God, I'm like, what the? No, I had the I had the dad like. Shoot the kid his. Child not knowing that it was him. Yeah. No, I was a very people should be, should have questioned when

I was younger. Now I'm like, I figured out that I am gay and I'm like happiness. But like, no, I was a very cynical child so I was. Now I'm like more escape with media, but it depends on where you are in life. I mean, there is that weird fascination, like, with concepts. And just like that's the thing about fiction. Yeah, it's like it gives you the space to tackle those concepts without harming anyone. Thank God. I can only imagine your Google history, what that must have looked like.

No, it was just my brain. If your brain had a Google search history, that'd be that'd be a journey. I swear I'm a writer. Me like Googling How many? Stab wounds it takes to kill stab. Literally how dangerous. Stab. Watch. List, Yeah. How how hard does something have to bite you to make you bleed on your arm? I've definitely. Looked that up and. It's like I promise this is for a thing I'm writing. When I was younger. It was like a mix between me wanting.

So basically, they. Had us like, change the ending of the story and it was fan fiction. So I went from doing that. And then the other part of me was just making the female characters I liked in my shows be together. But I wasn't gay at all. Not at all. It's for science. Or whatever. I feel that 16 year old me being obsessed with Glee, but it's only the queer characters. Yeah, well, let's be fair. They were the best. They were the most interesting. Until season five hit.

And then it was like, why? What have you done? Yes. Oh dear. Yeah, that show it off the rails. We haven't. That was the question about that, how that went off the rails. And the queer does. What was the question? Oh, the film stuff. Jesus. Films are a suspension of reality. Yeah, OK. I see. It it depends on the. Kind of film. I think it's like, oh, I love this new thing. Like Hard Suffer is a prime example of like.

It tries to be true to reality in a sense of like, this is things that actually happened to teenagers. But it's also in the sense of like healing and optimism of everything's going to be OK, Which it might not be true, obviously, it's not true for everybody at all. But it's something we want to try to strive more towards being true for more people. Like, yes, it's going to be hard now, but obviously, like there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Everything's going to be OK You

have, you will have. If you don't have a support system now, you will at some point. You just need to find the right people because there are people out there and I love that. That has become a more normal thing in media, more common thing in media that it is like some of the things it's it is like a not a suspension of reality. It's an expansion on reality to the point that it's almost fantasy in a way. But it kind of, I don't know, it makes you like wish better for

the world. And I love that. Like we need more of that. The world is a terrible place to live and we need to normalize media that makes it better. The non. Fake films would be documentaries. So. Technically, you do have balance. Somewhat. I like your description. Expansion of reality. That's a really good way to phrase that. Honestly, 'cause I'm with you. I agree with Tori's sentiment that sometimes Disney films feel fake is kind of what she's getting at.

She's like, this is too perfect. Like life, real life isn't this perfect, you know? And there are elements like, I don't know, I feel like I mentioned this a million times when I can't and I talked about high school, the High School Musical show. It's like sometimes it feels, it feels forced, it feels, it feels too perfect, it feels fake and

not super grounded in reality. So the contrast like that teenage show with like heart stopper, to your point, like heart stopper, the characters feel more grounded. They're more flawed. They're more like human beings versus like perfect caricatures, which I think is what Tori's getting at. And to Michael's point, like,

yeah, media is escapism. But media also can be a way to analyze life like it, to analyze human behavior like and explore it through this fictional world, which is like the kind of media I I prefer to enjoy. So I I get what both of them are saying, but I'm with you. I I I prefer media like Heartstopper that's it's grounded in reality but it's also an expansion of that of like this. This could be a better way to do things or this could be healing for people so. I I, I, I agree with.

What both of them are saying, and I like the way you put it, that's really good. Also, just the irony. Not the the irony. Also just like I know that this book like it was written a decade ago so it this wasn't relevant than but Tori being like I hate Disney movies but love Star Wars I'm just like well that didn't age well. Sorry Tori. Yeah yeah that's true. I wonder what she thinks about Star Wars. She probably was. She, she would have been so

pissed hearing that Lumen film. God sell to Disney And she's like, no, absolutely not. Yeah, again, Tori. Relatable. Relatable. And there's going to be three more movies. No, absolutely not. And then she watches them and she's like, OK, they're actually kind of good. Dang it. Don't tell anyone. Yeah, but I don't care to wrap up their Beauty and the Beast

movie watching. I love at the end of the movie when Tori tells she this is a moment where she feels very, very, very comfortable with Michael and is very vulnerable with him. Where she tells him all about Charlie because he mentions like, oh, I know of Charlie because he used to go to trum and now he's at Higgs and Tori. Just like trauma dumps. Basically all of the Charlie stuff to Michael, which I don't think she really tells anybody truly about what's going on with Charlie.

And I I love how, yeah, she basically just, like, doesn't keep it bottled up for once because I feel like that's Tori's default. And it's just, it's just a beautiful scene. Because if you think about the Charlie stuff, I think that that weighs very, very heavily on Tori. And there's like, who is she gonna talk about that with? She doesn't really connect with Becky. Her family doesn't like to truly talk about what's going on with Charlie.

Yeah, they're dealing with it and they support him, but they don't communicate. So I like that Tori finally has somebody she can open up to. And just it seems so natural for her to just tell Michael this stuff. And I just. I love that moment with them. Yeah. Oh, man. Then she gets. Home. And like our all of our calls. Oh my God. And they get home and take two on Tori being a caretaker. God, yeah, she the fact that she gets home, this is, this is

what, like, I thought was crazy. Like it just kind of leads into like another point of Tori. The parents are always busy and Tori has to take care of things. The fact that when she sees or Charlie relapse again, she comes in and finds that he's relapsed. Her first response like, yes, like she's talking to Charlie and he's like, we had an argument, me and Nick. That's why this has happened, I guess, like, but it wasn't his fault. It was my fault.

Don't call him, please. Her response is to call him immediately. It's not to call the parents. It's not to say like to the parents, hey, this is what happened. That's like that became an afterthought. Her first response is to immediately call Nick and scream at him like, do you realize what you've done? Like and like it's just it's just so much. I think like she didn't even consider at all calling the parents until after, like she calmed down. Like it just shows.

Like, her parents are not in the slightest like the people she turns to in those situations. Yeah. And particularly when it comes to Charlie, too, you know, Like, who cares about Charlie enough to, like, help him in this moment? Nick. Not the parents. Yeah. Who? Yeah. Who is? Like, who does Charlie feel safe with Nick? 100% right.

Parents, right. No. And when and when she's screaming at Nick, it's and just basically being like, you let me down, Nick, you're supposed to be the one that takes care of him. Because I almost like it's like she feels like the weight of Charlie falls on her. And also Nick, not the parents. So, like, it's really sad. It's like, almost like an argument parents would be having about their kid.

You know, It's sad they're kids like, Oh my God, yeah, she calls them like, hey, you were literally Charlie's safe place, and now you're the reason he relapsed. So what the hell, dude. So I mean, obviously, like, Charlie even says, like, it was a mutual argument. It was like my fault. Which, you know, as far as we understand, it was probably just a mutual. Like they just got heated and Nick left to just get. Out of the. Situation because he also was

upset. We don't know exactly what happened, but in her mind, it's like, dude, dude, like, you're Charlie's boyfriend. You've been the one who's gotten in through this rough time, and now you're just going to walk away it like, to her and her mind and her perspective. So she's like, of course, rightfully so, angry about it. And then of course, obviously as soon as she calls him, he's just like, wait, what? And she tells him what happened.

And of course his first instinct is like, no, I'm coming over. I'm coming back. Like, so we learned like, yeah, like he knows he messed up and this. Is Nick's a good guy? Nick is such a Oh my God, he's such a sweetie. Even in this book we don't have like, the full breadth. Of Nick, he's just. The actual best I I also wonder in this conversation too if Tori's projecting a little bit here.

Almost like, because if you think about it, the the lead up to this was she was having this really great night slash evening with Michael and then rushed out of there to be in this situation where her perspective of like Nick and Charlie is like they're the perfect couple. Basically coming from like Tori's point of view. Like they support each other. They're very cute. She can clearly see they're in

love. And I think she's almost like, wow, what if Michael leaves me and like doesn't support me too. And I wonder if she's, like projecting her insecurities of like if this happened to her aunt and Nick also to be like you were supposed to be there and like, you're unreliable. And I wonder if that's partially what's going on, too. Maybe. Maybe. But maybe Charlie? And poor Oliver.

To have to be so young and to witness all this stuff with his siblings, and he kind of doesn't fully know what's going on. I hope he's OK when he gets older. Yeah. He's just like something's wrong with Charlie. Imagine, like when he's a teenager and he finds out the truth. It's just like, how how do you break that news to your to your kid? Yeah. Yeah, 'cause, like this is almost like going to be normal for Oliver, you know? Like, yeah. Anyway all. Right.

So after Charlie's relapse. So basically like Tori, like get out got out of there with Michael and like went home and afterwards he, Michael calls Tori to check on her like the next day. And this is like, I think this is where part of the projection comes from. She's surprised that he even called the check up on her, because I think Tori has very clearly been living in the shadow of Charlie's mental illness too. Which is why I think partially why her depression falls under

the radar, like from her family. Because everyone's so fixated on Charlie, because what's going on with him is much more overt, much more obvious, like he really needed help. They helped him, but they can't see the subtle, like things going on with with Tori's depression and the way she's unhappy, very withdrawn from her friends, sleeps all day, like she's clearly not OK, but it's overshadowed by Charlie a bit.

And as the older sibling and somebody who obviously loves her brother, she puts on this mass of strength all the time because I feel like she also feels responsible for Charlie and feels like she has to be strong for him because the parents failed them. Everybody's feeling Charlie. I think Tori sometimes feels like she fails Charlie because she's also like I saw some signs with him and I didn't do anything. And so I think there's an

element of guilt there. But for for Tori to again feel seen by Michael and then to have him actually just check up on her, not Charlie, but like her to see how she's doing, I think was such a huge moment for Tori and it's really sad that she was surprised by that. You know, I know. She deserves to have people care about her.

Yeah, I agree. But you know, this was her Nick moment where she had like, somebody who, like, sees her, cares about her, is her willing to be her support system, which she really needs. I know. Yeah, she's surprised because it's like she deserves, obviously she deserves somebody to care about her. But does she feel that way? Seems like, no, she doesn't,

right? Yeah. Yeah. And then after that, it's like Chapter 18. They go to Charlie's therapy session, and I think it's the parents going first to do a session. And so Tori and Charlie are sitting in the waiting room and Charlie asks, why haven't we been talking? I don't. I don't remember exactly how many days it's been since the Relapse at this point because it's 4 chapters later. I'm like, I don't remember how long it is. It's probably like maybe a week at the most.

I would imagine it's been a few, a few days. But yeah, they go and he's like, why haven't we been talking? It's like, obviously Tori's been very preoccupied with Michael. And at this point, I think Tori and Michael have gotten into an argument about their friendship. So it's like they she's very preoccupied. And so like, Charlie's like, we haven't been talking. She's like, oh, that's right, my

favorite. One of my things that I really love about this, like, she has a little bit of an olive branch. She says she offers to take the bus with him. She explicitly says like to herself, she hates taking the bus. But she offers because he always goes. But I love this because it's like it's it's a little bit of her trying to step away from being such a caretaker in a way, because it's like it's not necessarily caring for him. It is.

She's just trying to be beside him and be a safe space for him, which is I feel like it's definitely a much healthier role to. Take. Instead, when when you're literally not the kids parent, it's like being a safe space. It's very different than being the caretaker obviously. Like, like that's. I feel like that's Nick for Charlie.

It's like he is the safe space and that's what Tori, I think wants to be. But she takes on just this big role as the caretaker for him because the parents are not around. But I love that because this is like a little bit of a balance of her saying I'll, I'll be next to you so that if you need me, I'm here. And I love that. But she's still, she's still his sister, like, and that's that's what I love.

And then, yeah, I I totally agree with you because yeah, I think that the whole I have to play the role of parent it, it changes their dynamic in a way that they shouldn't have to like because when we see them when Charlie's having good days, they are partners in a way like you know, like siblings like like to your point and so puts them more on equal footing. They have a lot of understanding between each other.

So I think that was a really important olive branch, like you said, to like get their old dynamic back and reinforce the fact that they really do have a strong bond with each other. So I love that it came from Tori. Who? You know, the cold and distant. I don't care, Tori. So I love that it came from her and not necessarily Charlie who Charlie's more of a people pleaser sometimes. So I would imagine the olive branch would come from him. So I like that it's her doing

that. I think that showed a lot of maturity from Tori and how much she prioritizes Charlie and her relationship with him. You know, I know that's like such a like a one of those prime like. Saying I love you without saying I love you. Like I hate taking the bus. Like it's a terrible that I'll do it for you. Yeah. Oh, it's a really good point. Yeah. It's. Worth it. It's worth it to spend time with you, or it'll if it makes you feel more comfortable. But I also want to spend time

with you. It's just like siblings who love each other. There's it's just warms my heart so much. Siblings who know how to say I love you without saying it out loud. It's just the best. It's so cute. Yeah, all the siblings are really cute and their relationship with each other, it's really adorable in this in this series you. Know and then we. Get to the awful part with censor his name. Ben A lot of. People censor his name is the funniest thing. That's hilarious, in fact.

And this is like a little bit. Of a jump to 20, Chapter 23. At this point, I think Tori and Michael like, we've stepped away a little bit from Tori and Michael's drama and they've like made-up at this point. Cause don't they? At some point like, yeah, they like have a. Talk. And they're like friends.

I think, Michael, the skating competition comes after this, but they're like kind of more on speaking terms, 'cause I think they had the whole situation where he called her a sociopath or a psychopath or whatever, and she was like, OK, and that caused the riff. And they're like kind of getting more on speaking terms. But the chapter after this is where they, like, become fully friends again when she shows up for him. Oh yeah, OK, Because I know

that. Yeah, they're like because at this point they're like outside the school and they're like not, there's not a tension with them necessarily in the sense of like, oh, we had an argument. We haven't talked. So I'm like, yeah, they've they've had a bit of a conversation. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lucas is just being Lucas. Connie. You. Mentioned it, yeah. But yeah, Lucas is Lucas. The whole book. Also, like, I don't know if you guys have ever read Waiting for Godot, but these, Oh my gosh,

I'm a theater kid. So, like, I I've never seen it, but I know what it's about. And so like, just like him making those jokes just makes me cackle. I'm just like. We're waiting for. Charlie I'm like, hey, hey, it's it's it's literally, it's an entire play just about like two guys waiting for Godot. It's it's actually really kind of dark. But it yeah, so it's it just made me laugh because I I understand what it meant. But it was like, Oh my.

But I love. That it's not explained because it's so true to like Tori's perspective of like, I don't know what it is. I've never seen it. If you if. You know, you know, if you know, you know, kind of thing. But what's so crazy is like when they hear like, Ben, Ben punches Charlie, just straight up punches him in the face because they're in this argument. And Tori's first thought this time is not to like go like, scream at him. It's to go rush to Charlie's

side and be like, are you OK? And so it's like, but this time she's not by herself. That's what I love about, like, the differences. Like, Oliver couldn't have done anything in chapter 13. Like, he's a kid. But in this chapter, like, she's got Nick, she's got Michael, and yeah, she's got Becky and Lucas. Well, actually, no, Becky disappears. Like, yeah, she runs away, but she's got like, yeah, she's got them and she's got Lucas. Who? I don't know.

He does something. He's he's kind of there. But Michael, like Nick. Nick is the one who goes like, I don't think. He doesn't say it, but he's like, you're dead hope or whatever he says. I don't remember. But he like tackles him. Yeah. Punching his boyfriend. Rightfully so. But Michael goes over and starts like asking Charlie, like does he know his name and all that, making sure he has, doesn't have a concussion.

And it's like Tori there, there is a little bit of a role of caretaker in the sense of like, you know, just like, Oh my God, you just got punched in the face. But she's not alone this time. And I think that's so huge.

And I like, that's such a big contrast to the last, the last experience with it because now she's got Michael, she's got Nick. And it's like she has a group, she has a support system with her that like, yes, they're there to support Charlie, but they're also there to support her, unbeknownst to them, because now she's not by herself, which is huge. For. Her finally in real life instead of just online, right Karna? Yeah. It's it's like a found family

moment. And I don't think Tori realizes she's having a found family moment, which also makes it really beautiful because that's kind of how that happens in real life. When when found families are found, I guess it kind of just happens naturally and it's not usually a conscious thing that's happening. So in this scene that I think that's kind of what's. Playing out and it's. Tori's not super aware that that's what's happening, but yeah, I love it. And Nick had every right to tackle that.

Bitch screwed then. My God, it's even. Worse in the this book I one of my notes was Misery follows everywhere. I know this is the new version too. So you hate him even more. In the old version I never really. I don't know how bad it is. Yeah, I have some notes later on that. We can. We can. Yeah, you need to teach us about. Yeah, teach us. I only read this version. Yeah, OK, but. To contrast the misery scene, let's go to a super cute happy

scene. I mean kind of happy in terms of like triumphant for like emotionally, not actually, I'll explain. So basically, Michael and Tori, they're big, like, rekindling or like solidifying of their relationship. Like, like on a positive note is when Michael basically invites her to do something with him on Saturday and Torre doesn't realize what it is and then finds out later. Michael's in this real, like, big deal speed skating competition.

Like he's somebody who, like, is on track to go to the Olympics kind of thing. And he's in this big competition and she's like, oh, crap, that's what you invited me to. So she, like, runs over there to support him. How's the competition? It's so sweet. Like, no thoughts. She's just like, I need to be there to support him. He supports me. I need like, that was her instinct, which is huge in terms

of her character growth. But she gets there and basically Michael comes in 2nd and he's like a competitive speed skater. So he has, he has some feelings about that that are not positive. And so this is the first time that Tori actually sees him not being positive. Like he's just like angry and like throwing things and like, 'cause, you know, he's got a lot of adrenaline. And this is him like, unleashing what he he actually bottles up, right? And so she she thinks like about

him. It's weird how you see someone who smiles all the time and you assume they are happy all the time. It's weird how someone is nice to you and you assume they're a wholly good person. I did not think Michael could be so serious about something. What scares me the most is that no one else seems to notice. And to me, this seemed like this parallel scene to the pizza parlor where Tori is seeing Michael. Like truly seeing him when no one else does.

And I just love the sentiment because yeah, there's a lot of time that where people who you think are happy are sometimes the saddest people actually cause of that whole pretending to be normal thing that they were talking about earlier. And so I like that Tori's having this moment of like I think like oh, we are very similar. He just, he's not always happy on the inside. I assumed he was the sunshine in human form and oh, he's just like me.

He has dark feelings and that he needs to express, so I love that she sees that and like she sees the kinship with him for like what it is. It's just it's such a. Beautiful. Moment. And then I love when he's like, oh, you did come. And. So cute, because now he's surprised. He's like, oh, they surprise each other and it seems like no one else was there for him either. So. Yeah. They really relate in that

aspect as well. Oh my gosh, yeah, I love, I love Alice's choices of love languages with these people. It's like being present with each other, showing up for each other. It's like that is a love language that we don't really. I know like especially when the parents are not showing, right? Yeah, like show showing up is definitely its own love language for sure. Showing up, especially when you know it matters to the person that much. That is a big love language

hands down. I'm glad you said that. Because I think again, it's really it's interesting the fact that Alice wrote this and had no idea about her own sexuality. I. Just find that really interesting because a lot of books like this of like teenagers coming of age, like the hormonal element would come in and kind of cloud everything and make it, you know, sexual on some level in terms of like affection and things like that. But because that's not Alice like I I agree with you.

I think there's more of a depth to like what is love really and how can you express it? And yeah, it just it. It's so good, I'm. Just I love it. You don't see this often in YA. It gets convoluted with the hormonal aspect, which is not really happening with a lot of these characters. It's it's very different and it's just I love it. It's a yeah, that's a really good point. I love that. I know that's something you see a lot, especially in Friends to

Lovers books. Like they can be such well written characters, such well developed characters with such a solid friendship since like childhood. The next thing you know, oh now suddenly they're in love and they want to have sex all the time. And it's like, I understand like build up sexual tension. But like, I don't know. I feel like when you know somebody that far on an emotional level, and this is me speaking as somebody on the Ace Spectrum, I'm like, I don't

know. Like for me that's it's so much more like there's already that emotional connection. Why wouldn't I want to just double down on that? And then like, the sex comes after the fact. Like, I don't know, I don't Maybe I'm just, that's just me. I don't get it. But no, I agree with you.

I think there's, like you said, there's many ways to show your affectionate, particularly at this age too, where like that's what you know how to do more than anything else when you're coming into puberty and things like that. So it's refreshing to read that from young characters. You know who? Are, you know, expressing love and these kinds of ways of like, I have to be there at this

competition. Like, like that meant everything to Michael. And the fact that Tori is like, I understand how important that is for me to just be there, you know? I love that. Yeah. Oh God, Chapter 27, unfortunately. Oh God. This, this chapter, essentially when I first read it, made me feel so morally conflicted because like, I hate Ben so much. Like you're, I mean, you're supposed to, but also like, if this is like one of those things, I wouldn't wish it on some just a person.

Like like, yes, he's done horrible things. But like so Ben basically is solitaire basically riles up this. They're at this party and they basically tell him to them to beat him up. Like every single person that's party to go beat the shit out of him. And they do, they go and they like beat him to the ground and and Tori is like freaking out. Like they're going to kill him. Oh my God, of course that's spoiler that's not what happens. He he gets out of it alive. But. I just.

Like. Yeah, like, I hate this person, but like. I don't. Want to die like. No. Also why are all these people like finally following this person telling someone to like inflict violence like it was at that moment like whoever Solitaire was, they're a terrible person right? Like that was. I think that was also a wake up call for Tori to was just like wait a second. No, that's this is like I already felt shady about this but no, this is messed up.

Hold on, 'cause it was all pranks, but now it's this. What? So something's out of the hand. And of course, this is like, this is the end of part one of the book. So it's like, Oh my God. But what breaks my heart is Tori. Like this whole time she's tried, like, she's been the caretaker role, but she's like trying to break out of it, trying to be his sister, Charlie's sister and not his, you know, like his mom, basically.

And in this moment where, like she says, to quote, I couldn't stick up for Charlie and now Solitaire is doing my job for me, I've never been able to do my job properly. I suppose I'm like, what does she think is her job? And like, clearly it's something to do with she has to take care of Tori and to an extent it could be she's his big sister. But it's like. It feels like it's. So much more than that to her. Like it's it's more than just a big sister role. Like she has to be his caretaker

in a sense. And anyway obviously it's it's purely because she loves him and she wants him to be OK but and so she's she's yeah, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier how they are so similar. Like, she doesn't understand how, like, her thoughts are depression, but she can understand, like, the what Charlie is going through. So she's like, it's my job to make sure that he doesn't feel like that, right?

And then she allows herself to step away for like a little while, to just be a teenager and whatever all goes on with Michael. And then as soon as she does this happens, he gets punched and he gets, she gets really hurt. And so now she feels like it's my fault that he got hurt. I didn't do what I was supposed to do when she just put herself first for once in her life. So that's hard. Like, yeah, I agree with you. It just this moment feels bigger.

Like you said, it's more than just the sibling bond. And I I I agree with you. I think that it's a guilt thing because she's like, finally I took off the mom hat. And look what? Happened. Like I, I, I and I feel like she feels that way when Charlie relapses where she's like I wasn't doing my job and look what happened. So I think it's like a negative, like a a negative reinforcement cycle.

She's kind of trapped in with with Charlie because she feels more responsible for him than just a normal sibling dynamic perhaps from like the parents lack of oversight and things like that. And because she loves him so much, like you said, Yeah. And so poor, poor Tori is having a hard time getting free of the shadow of Charlie and his like his, his well-being and his mental illness and things like that. So she can be her own person.

And this almost like, takes her a step back where she's like, wow, it shouldn't have been so selfish and like. You know which. Is really sad because she's a child too, you know? Yeah. She's only, what, a year older than Charlie, so like Ish. She's she's like only a year ahead in school. So it's like, yeah. She's not that much older than. Him. She's a child and she's, you know, is forced into adulthood by, you know, these

circumstances. So it's it's sad that she can't just like be a kid, you know, She has to be more than that because she has this responsibility, which is Charlie, whether it's self-imposed or like the actual sad truth of it, that she is the more responsible person in his life, like when it comes to like taking care of him. So it's just yeah. It's a lot. And yeah, this is the point in the book where I was like, oh, damn, Solitaire is much more powerful than I thought they

were. And they have mob mentality now, which is never good. Yeah, this is when I was like, little shit's getting real. Yeah. So before we get to Part 2, I am curious because I was very fixated on who Solitaire. Was. Did y'all have? Theories about who was solitaire while reading. I did did. You. Me. Or. Elena. Yeah. Elena, did you have I? I kind of just had bullshit theories.

But like, I thought. I thought it was like, for a while I thought it might be part partially Ben, like he was going to be one of the villains in the story. But again, I I read Hearts over before I read this. So I already had a preconceived notion of, like, this is the horrible person that Ben is. And then the party happened. And I was like, oh, maybe not. But then I was like, well, maybe he was, maybe he was. And then he got kicked out.

I don't know. I had like, these weird theories about, like, he could have been, but it kind of was like, or he wanted to use it for sympathy. Honestly, that's not beneath Ben. Yeah, right. Oh my God. Literally. Episode of season 2. My parents would never love me. OK, But like, you still assaulted Charlie. So like. Exactly. I'm pretty sure that I thought it was everyone at some point. Not like all together, but like I was very paranoid, like including Tori. I thought it was Tori and I'm

and I thought. It was just like. Maybe she had dissociative identity disorder and so like she has a system that she doesn't understand and that's why she feels like her personality changes with people. So like, I thought that maybe she's like really just not aware that she is doing it and like it's someone else taking over. Yeah, that would track too. Because the what the things that I found weird about Solitaire was that it's a blog and I'm like, who still uses blogs? Tori uses blogs.

So I'm like, it is connect. I knew. I knew from the beginning it was connected to Tori because I'm just like they're using a blog like Tumblr, I assume. And I'm like not many people are on Tumblr at this point in time, but Tori is. So that's a typical. So that's to be somebody who still uses blogs and they kept bringing up the fact that Tori was getting these like messages on the blog from like like an on request that are kind of weird. And I'm like. I feel like that's connected.

At the beginning, I thought it was Michael Holden, but I was like, 'cause he's new, the solitaire is new, so I'm like, the timing makes sense, but it's kind of too obvious, 'cause he was in the room when she discovered it, but also like, maybe. But then I thought, I thought for a really long time it was Lucas because I was just like, why? He's not. He's like because it seemed connected to her from the beginning. So I was like the Star Wars

thing she mentioned she likes. Star Wars and I'm like. That's weird. What a weird coincidence. I don't think that's a coincidence that Alice is putting this in here and then Lucas comes up out of nowhere and she's like, oh, childhood friends. I was like, OK, so he knew her when she liked Star Wars. I thought it was him for like the very longest time. But then like towards the middle of the book with the Ben stuff, I'm like, I don't know, this could, this could be any

somebody, like anybody. This could be a group of people because like, when the mob started happening, I'm like, I don't think this is one person anymore. I think there's a group that's trying to disrupt the school. Who has it out for the school? I. Thought it was Becky during all that because she kept saying Tori, I want you to be happy. I want you so and like this

person knew her. So I was thinking that Becky secretly had a crush on Tori, so she wanted her to be happy and she's like obsessed with Tori. I can say she wanted to talk all about the guy she was having all the sex with. Throw her off the set. That's that would have been that would have. Been such a good gay storyline? Dang it. What A twist.

But yeah, it was. It became very obvious at one point, even before Tori figured out I'm like somebody's obsessed with Tori. And who is obsessed with Tori? Or yeah, Becky would have been a good one too. Yeah, no, to your point too, Theora. Like the second time I read this, having already known, like obviously going back and reading it, I was like, I'm dumb. Like I see all the signs now. Like, Oh my God, it makes so much more sense. I feel so stupid.

But it's like, you know, first time reading it. No, you don't know absolutely. And like solitaire, it's like, especially when you're reading it for the first time, it's like, it's there, but it's not like you kind of forget about it. You know, a lot of until you get towards like this part, like towards the crescendo of like the end of part one and into Part 2.

It's a lot more about solitaire. Like you forget about it and that's how I was feeling about and I'm like, it's the name of the book like it had like I feel like it has to come back And the fact that like Lucas has the same trajectory where he's like introduced and you forget about him, he follows the same trajectory as as solitaire. That's why I was like, I feel like it's him because why introduce him, do nothing with

him. I feel like he's part of something because like he's like this ghost in the background. Like, why bring him back? And put him in the book. That was the only reason I was, like, fixated on him, 'cause I'm like, he's really seems like a random character that knows her really well. Like this. Weird. Blog. But the blog part was like weird where I was just like, this is connected to Tori because who's blogging?

They're using Facebook. Instagram is like the social media of choice and hard stoppers. I was like, this is weirdly specific to Tori. But anyways, I was watching ATV show in the plot. It was a comedy and they're reading the story and they but the last page was missing and it there was like a murder. And they're trying to figure out who did it and they're like, obviously it's this person, obviously this person. They find the author and they're like, oh, it was the Butler.

And they're like, you mean the character who only opened the door in the first page and was never talked about again. He's like, yeah, no one would expect it. That's. So. Cool. I love. That and then they fan fiction. The. Ending it was like it was. All of the people who? Yeah. That's so wild. I. I never forgot about sausage. That was like the main point. I was like, who is it?

I've watched it pretty. Little Liars who is a yeah, yeah, should have known it was multiple people from them. All right, Part 2. Part 2 A lot happens in part. 20 my. God. I mean, first of all, Tori immediately, like, right off the bat in the first, like the very beginning of Part 2, she thinks that she's this bad guy. Like she's falling back into

this. Like she, she has so much progression in the first part, like in thinking, like finding the support system, and now she's like falling back into this headspace. She is a villain. She is nothing. And she starts like acting on this villain role that she thinks that she is. And she even says, like, she's being mean to the people around her. She knows it.

She feels like a horrible person, and she doesn't know why she does it. And then, like, she's actively, like, mean to Lucas. And then when she texts him and apologizes later and he just says it's fine, she's like, why are you just like, why can't you be mad at me? Like, you can tell she's frustrated. She's like, no, be mad at me, please. Like somebody, like, be angry at what I'm doing because what I'm doing is terrible, which is so interesting.

Yeah. It's like she's lashing out, which is different than what Ori used to do. And like basically the behavior she got from Lucas is kind of like the behavior she was giving Becky at the beginning where it's just Tori wasn't engaging. And this is Lucas not engaging. So it's like the the roles are reversed and now she's like, oh, I see how this feels. And this sucks. I want, I want you to like, want to like maintain our friendship basically. And it's like you're giving up,

which was Tori at the beginning. So 180 character like behavior for her, which is really, really interesting. And the big thing in in Part 2, we didn't write this down, but I'll just go into it is like the, I think, the conclusion of solitaire, which was burn the school down, which we get here. Seriously, why? Why is burning the school down what they want to do? Yeah, 'cause they're just like, I guess they're like patience kills, and then they're like, school is ruining everybody's lives.

It's making Tori unhappy. Let's burn it to the because they like, they move into like this anarchy position, right, Versus just like disruptive and charming. And it's just like burn it like the way it escalates is like. Wild. I want to see the repercussions of this because like jail time and like at the end it looks like it would be Michael and Tori because they stay in this freaking burn in school and they're on. Top of the. Building like there has. There, there needs to be another.

Book where like they're framed now for burning down this school. You have to write that fan fiction now, Caitlin. Literally. Like I was supposed to have someone else do it and send it to us like we asked, with all of our fanfic ideas. Yeah, I did somebody else. And just also, like, I'm sorry, the ending of this book is just wild. The school's on fire, Michael and Foyer on the roof. And they're just like, yes, I love you. It's great. Yeah, sure, sure. Like. It's the crescendo after Tori

almost jumps off the building. It. Was crazy. Just wild. I feel like this happened really fast. The Ending. Ending. Tori has the moment where she like, 'cause she it's like Tori. I feel alone. I don't matter. Michael's here. You matter. That's kind of what's happening. Then she looks out on the expanse of the school grounds and like the town is there. It's like 6:00 in the morning. The whole town's there, including the school's been burning for an hour.

I was. I was waiting for the roofs to collapse, like it's burning underneath you. I like you guys. You're fucked. Exactly. Like, how are you getting down? Questions. I need answers. Exactly, but like. You jump apparently, but like Tori's big moment is like. We're not alone. And like Charlie's there mix there, she finally feels supported standing on a burning building. Like the symbolism and everything is real great, but I'm like, practically, how do they get out of there?

Who's going to Jail for Arson? That's all I could think about. Is that like? You can't burn down to school. And also I'm thinking of like how much money it's going to take to rebuild the school and all of that logistics. How long is Higgs out of Commission? That's why I was like, does everybody end up at true I'm in the means. That's what they said. What's happening? They can't, they can't fit

everybody in that seat. So like, that's all I could think about was the logistics of everything. And I could not focus on the story, which I know is not the point. But that is just so like, yeah, just focus on that after I have so many questions. I know they're literally in the car at the end. And it's Charlie who was asked where are you going to go next year? Not Tori. Hey, your school's burnt down. Where are you going to go?

Tori? It's Charlie, cause Charlie's been going through this conflict of where are you going to go? I'm going to. I'll stay at Trum Tori. He's like, I guess. We're all going the trum now. The fire decided for everybody. Yeah, if my sister's there, I'll stay there. That work? You know what? That's fair. I mean, yeah. Oh, man. Well, yeah. I really want to know what happened because none of the people who actually committed arson are. There and Michael, technically.

Made it worse because he threw the freaking fire extinguisher out the window. That's got his fingerprints on it. Yeah, he. Stayed in. The building, everyone sees them on the roof, like they have to get them down. The administrator, they're like come to my. Oh, I can't even come to my. Office, It's about fire. Like, come with the jail. Like, I mean, it looks like they're, like, proud of it because they're on the roof showing everybody they're like, I'm thrilling.

Oh my God. Supergirl pose. It was wild. Besides all the wildness, though, we do get the, you know, Tori and Michael and their kiss, which is really cute. And just like, I don't know. The conclusion of their relationship was really sweet by the end. I know, especially the snow scene, like what is like halfway through Part 2, like Tori and Michael, to get to just be teenagers hanging out on the

field in the snow. And I was like, I I love just they got to be. They just got to be kids and have fun together and they got to be alone and just like be human. And I love that part. Yeah, I agree. Corey doesn't get many moments like that. So that was really, really special for her. To have to do it and then have somebody to share it with was also big, right? Yeah. I found the scene where the firecrackers, I believe, or the fireworks festival.

Yeah, and how she was just like I have AI. Could I have a choice now? Like do I run or? Do I just this could? Kill me and she just freezes. That's wild. That was scary with Tori. Yeah. And poor Michaels in the frozen water. Like, can you get over here?

Also, poor Charlie, like having see, like, I I look at, like from Charlie's perspective in this second part, like just the progression that he has seen, like he's he's at the festival, he sees Tori almost get blown up and like, he's like, 'cause I think. He's literally like. Screaming at her from like, across the across the river. He's like Tori. Get out of there. And she doesn't move. Like the panic he probably had. And then after that, like, I'm trying to remember, is it this?

I mean, obviously, like, yes, there's the when the school burns down, but I feel like there's something before that that he also sees. Maybe that's it that I'm thinking of. But then he, like, sees her. Yeah, the roles. Reverse for them. Yeah, and then he sees. Her almost jump and he like, he's like, Oh my God. I think it. Doesn't mean at the very end even say something like he he never really noticed that she was doing stuff. He's like, how did I not see this coming?

Yeah. Because he has to take her to the hospital like force her to go to the hospital and get a wounds care and fork. She's like I don't want to go. It's yeah, their roles are exactly reversed and and this is the whole like when the people closest to you don't see what's really going on and Charlie's like. Oh. I miss all the signs you are not doing well because I've I've been focused on me and what I'm going through and you were focused on me.

So yeah, it's a big role of result like you said. And then it and then it ends with him saying I love you Tori. And she says I love you too. Like. It's such a simple. Little thing, but it just that warmed my heart because they never say it like and they haven't said it in the show at all. They haven't like, like, yes, obviously. Like, like we've said before, like you don't have to say I

love you to say I love you. But like just to hear them say it out loud, especially after like how internalizing everything they have been, just to say it out loud, both just very out and proud, especially surrounded by everybody else in the car. Like, no shame. It's just like, I mean obviously, like they they love each other. Like that's that's obvious. Like we they knew that. But for them it's like such a vulnerable thing to say out loud. So I thought that just warmed my heart so much.

Like their sibling relationship is like probably one of my favorites in media. Like ever. I just love it so much. So yeah, yeah, let's. Keep on. It all right now I'm. Really. I really, really want to know what the difference between the original version and the new version is. I don't. So I only ever listened to the audio book in the original version. So I'm just this is kind of just

what I remember. I remember Charlie's Relapse, both Charlie's Relapse episode and Ben's assault on him. We're both a lot more graphic. So like in his Relapse, there's a lot more details. In the original version of like there's Blood, there is like it's it's a little bit more graphic and it's very heartbreaking and she didn't

like take out too much. But there's even, I think if I remember right, the her monologue where she's yelling at Nick on the phone is a lot longer in the original version too. Like she is cussing him out on the phone for a while in the original version. And so I think like just for the sake of brevity, she cut that down a little bit in this new version. But then even when Ben hits Charlie in the, I think in this version he basically just punches him, but in the original

version he beats him. Oh, wow. So it's like, it's so yeah, it's a lot more graphic. And I think part of what I really appreciate, Alice Alice even says, like, yeah, I wrote this when I was like a teenager. So like, I had a much more different viewpoint on everything. And like my writing style was very different. And obviously this was before Heart Stopper because Heart Stopper was inspired by this.

So I like, I appreciate that. Like when she rewrote and republish this book, she kind of made it to where a lot of like those scenes specifically were a little bit more vague, like less graphic, but also just a little bit more ambiguous. So it leaves a lot to the imagination to where you could just be like you can either fill in the gaps or you don't have to think about it. Like if it's triggering for you, you don't have to even consider it. You just are like, oh, this is what happened.

So yeah, I I do appreciate that She like, she didn't try to like what's the word saturated or sanitize it. She didn't try to sanitize it or anything. It's just like she made it less unnecessarily graphic and I appreciated that, Yeah. That's interesting, yeah. And I guess that, I mean that kind of makes sense on a couple of levels, the fact that she rewrote it after Heart Stopper.

Because I think even in this the republishing, there's a like a trigger warning in there specifically about Heart Stopper, where she says, hey, if you're a fan of heart Stopper, just know the tone of this book is very, very different than Heart Stopper. So I also wonder if she made some of those choices in mind, knowing how big Heart Stopper was. And she's like, oh, people are going to want to read this and the tones are different.

Maybe I should try to match it a little bit more because perhaps that audience is not prepared to see something so graphic happening to happening to Charlie, you know. So I wonder if that was part of the choice and obviously like her message has like warped in it has evolved like with Heartsopper especially like it's all about hope it's all about like everything will be OK at the end where.

And so like, I feel like she still wanted to keep a little bit of that tone in this by kind of reducing a little bit more of the dark side and focusing more on the aftermath, which is they have support, They have these people who are wanting to help. And so I think that that was a really big step for her to kind of keep on, keep on brand with her message that she's trying to get across, which is yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. And I do like the ending here too, where it's, it's

open-ended. And like, there's still that element of, well, we're still not sure what the future holds or what's going to happen. But, you know, we're just going to carry on, which is life. And and especially at that age where it's like, yes, you don't, you don't have everything figured out. You don't know what's going to happen next. But you know it's OK and change is going to happen and we just hope it's going to be some more

good days than bad days. And that was basically the message of of Solitaire at the end. And so I do like that because that her messages like that to me or why I enjoy Alice's writing so much because that's real life and that's very grounding in fiction. So I like that she had that open-ended. We don't have all the answers and that's OK ending. I just love that. It's particularly in Hawaii novel where it's like that's reality for those characters.

They they they don't know what's going to happen next and that's OK They have each other like you said and just. I thought that was great. And especially if one of them goes to jail, at least they have a lot of visitors. Need to know who goes to jail. Like, come on now. All right, all right. Before we wrap up any any last thoughts about Solitaire Corey, just want to know who goes to

jail. That's Kylie. If you like audio books, highly recommend this audio book because the actress who plays Tori in the show is the narrator in this new re redone version and she does a really great job. I love her very dearly. Yeah, I kind of listen to it now. Yeah. Jenny Walser is awesome. She's she is the perfect Tori. Literally. Yes, the perfect, perfect Tori.

Yeah. The first time I I actually read the book Solitaire. The second time around I listened to that audio book and it was, it was really nice having her voice because like it just, it's like Tori's reading you the book and it was really great. It literally is it. Was so good. She is the she is the perfect Tori though, like just the delivery is very like dry. It's perfect.

Yeah. Yeah. I doubt that they're going to incorporate anything from the book into heart stopper season three, honestly. Like, I think Alice has said that she doesn't plan on it, but I I just, I do want to see a lot more Tori. And obviously we're getting Michael, thank God. Yeah. So I wonder if like his personality from the book will end up in the show like that. Kind of like Solitaire homage versus like actual scenes from Solitaire. Right.

But yeah, yeah, because where are they going to? Go and they burn down the school. My God, right? They are going to put that into show, right? Like that. Happens like. They just explain it like they don't, like explain the solitaire thing. In the background there's like, but then you just see like, like. Darcy will definitely have like so many jokes about she. Would could you? Imagine, like Elle especially like in the show, Cannon going to Lambert. And now she's like, well, I

dodged a bullet, right? That 'd be so funny. I feel like Becky, especially with my theory that she likes Tori. I feel like Becky's a little bit like Imogen. Oh, oh oh, maybe want me some Imogen. We're definitely getting that concert scene that we talked about when we were musing at the at the Volume 5 discussion because there's shots of them all in their outfits, so like. Imogen does come to that. I just can't wait, OK. It's gonna. Be great anyway. All right.

Before we go off the rail talking about season three, which soon, We're getting it. So soon? October. Yes, we're almost there. We'll be back to talk about all of that. I literally cannot wait. I think we're all excited here, but let's wrap, let's wrap up solitaire with our Lesbian Jesus hydration scale. If you're new here, basically this is a super scientific thing. We came up using gay science, where we rate. A piece of media based on how important we feel it is into the

lexicon of queer media. And we hydrate because water, like queer media, is essential for life. So how much would you hydrate for lesbian Jesus? I'll go first. However much diet, lemonade, Tori drinks of the day, that's how much I would hydrate for lesbian. Jesus. This is a hard question because does lesbian Jesus? Because obviously the Jesus from the traditional idea. Yes, from the book. The OG book converts water to wine. What does lesbian Jesus convert water to? That's my question.

Diet. Lemonade. Diet. Lemonade. Is that OK? I'll have whatever they're having. I will hydrate with all the water that was not used to put out the fire. That's so much water and that's how much we appreciate solitaire. That's so true. That's so funny. Well done, Caitlin. Thank you. I just thought of it. I'm really stuck on this burning building. You know. I wear Bear.

I mean, fair. But you know what I'm about to be stuck on. And I kind of already am, because I already read it. But our next book club is Dear Wendy by Anne Zhao. Zhao. No, I said that wrong. Yeah, Zhao, I believe it is. Anyway, it's a love story, but not the kind you'd expect. So if you're into solitaire, this is right up your alley. Yes, I want to give the synopsis so I can give the synopsis. I can give the synopsis. Here's the synopsis.

Dear Wendy's Sophie and Joe 2, a romantic and asexual students at Wellesley College, engage. In an online. Feud while unknowingly becoming friends in real life. It's super, super queer. It's really cute. If you like. YA type stuff. It's set in college. The protagonists are really great. Look at how cute they are. And all the characters, yes, all the characters. We had the pleasure of talking to Anne about this book.

So in our next episode that comes out next month, we'll release that or We had Anne's thoughts on writing this, but this is her first novel. Yes, ever it's. Ever. It's really great and she's a Arrow ace person herself and wrote this book for the representation aspect and it's really fun and cute. So if you like Solitaire, it's not dark like Solitaire, but. No. No, but it's got a lot of those, like showing love in different. Kind of aspects. Kind of way. So like, it's really cute.

It's it's very cute. I love it. There's some Taylor Swift references in it as well that we asked Dan about. That's coming anyway. But if you have a suggestion for a book you would like us to cover, if you want more Heart Stopper volumes or anything like that, please let us know. We would be super happy to dive into that or anything by AL's. We will probably cover up more AL's books in the future 'cause they're also good. Let's be honest. And but that's all we got for

today. So until next time, keep hydrating for lesbian Jesus however you want. We gave various ways you could do that in our wrap up and gave up all over the place. Just maybe not in burning Higgs building, yeah. Don't do that anywhere else. Bye, bye. And with that, we've been Big Gay Energy. Thank you for listening. We'd really appreciate it if you downloaded this episode and left us a review. No matter how brief, your contribution will help us reach a wider audience.

We would love to hear from you about everything and anything. You can. Find us on all social media platforms at Big Gay Energy Pod or e-mail us at Big Gay Energy [email protected]. Join our Discord server to connect with us and our friends who also love queer media. The link to join is in our episode description below. If you'd like to support us, check out our Merch store on Big gayenergypod.com or join our Patreon for early access to episodes, exclusive content, and so much more.

Until next time. Hydrate from Lesbian. Jesus. And get it. Up all over the place.