Hello, and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Bree. I'm Theora. And I'm Caitlin. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters, and we're here to talk about it. Cheers queers. Today on The Big Gay Agenda, we are talking with Robbie Taylor Hunt. Robbie is the intimacy coordinator who's worked on many projects including Matriarch You and Red, White and Royal Blue.
Welcome to the podcast, Robbie. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here. We have been dying to talk to somebody with your job because it's just so fascinating. I mean, the first time you hear it, you're like, what the heck is that? So can you tell us what does an intimacy coordinator do? Totally so. Intimacy coordinators are basically there to facilitate and choreograph intimate content. Intimate content is a huge umbrella and a subjective umbrella for different people.
People typically think that we're talking simulated sex and nudity. They are the big ones, of course. And kissing, Sometimes people think of. So we're actually there for kind of anything which someone might consider to be interaction.
So like physical touch, particularly kind of erotic or sensual physical touch, but really any physical touch, medical scenes, scenes of bodily functions, childbirth, there's really a lot that can go under that umbrella and we're there with sort of two hats on. So I think of the kind of safety and well-being hat making sure that people are happy and comfortable working within their boundaries, that that everyone's communicating clearly. The people are kind of happy and
clear. We're proud of the work that they're making and then the kind of choreographic movement hat. So with more the creative lens, how can we do justice to this moment of the story? How can we make this make sense for these characters and the script? That furthers the narrative in a way that we want it to happen. So they're the kind of key tenants of the work. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I guess. Question. How do you train to do intimacy coordinating? I'm just curious, what does the
training for that look like? Yeah, there's different pathways for different people, but it is a role that requires proper training and a really rigorous understanding of the practice before you go into it. Obviously, people are putting a lot of faith and and trust in you. It can be something where you're, you know, meeting people and quite quickly having to establish a sense of like, OK, you're going to put some real trust in me to make sure this
process goes smoothly. And so we need to make sure as a community that there is. Proper training process and experience that comes into that. So that for the sake of the industry, for the sake of those performers particularly that we're working with, people feel supported. People train in in different ways. The different training programs which have slightly different
capacities. But yeah, I personally, I I've trained with a company called intimacy for stage and screen where you apply sort of having to already have a certain level of experience. So I my background's in theater and I was working as a director and and facilitator of workshops and working with actors and. Movement capacities and fight
capacities like fight direction. So I sort of had the kind of movement understanding and safety well like physical safety particularly with fight and then I was volunteering with a brilliant organization who are now called Beyond Equality. So with that was sort of running workshops with boys and young men around consent and gender based violence and masculinity and so it's had a facilitation and consent language and that sort of fed into it as well and then.
With that training program with intimacy for stage and screen, that was across a year. We have light long weekends, weekends rather across that year spread throughout and sort of what you do in between where you really build a robust sense of consent and communication and closure practices and choreographic tricks and modesty comments and and all sorts. And then as you sort of start to work you then we'll get sort of mentorship support or peer support as you begin to work in
the industry. But I was in this sort of. Not the very earliest days, but sort of earlier days. And it's great to see that over the years there's an increasingly robust sense of what that training looks like in the US, intimacy directors and coordinators and T i.e. And also there's lots of various training bodies and I won't know the ins and outs of them in North America. Who have like now really robust sense of training it seems.
And in the UK there's various training bodies, moving body art in the UK have just announced their training program for which will launch pretty soon. They're brilliant. So they're really like brilliant educators making sure that we have the next generation of intimacy coordinators. Yeah, so how long has intimacy coordinators been a thing?
Cuz it seems fairly recent. Yeah, so the first sort of known intimacy coordinator on a TV project to my knowledge was Alicia Rodas in 2017 on the deuce season two, I think in the US and then the UK sort of 2018, we were getting it. So it's like pretty recent. I I just don't know if that's longer than you thought or not, but because of COVID as well, that sort of then means that even though it's sort of technically 5-6 years, it's sort of not really but before that.
I mean Tonya Cena in the noughties, I think like 2006 or 7 apologies. Tonya was had written her masters about intimate choreography and sort of beginning to try and figure out working with actors in this
capacity. Adam Noble and 2011 was writing for a kind of Fight and stunts magazine, I believe, about sort of staging sexual violence and then working on sort of extreme and intimate choreography and and how he went about not choreographing that I'm from New Zealand originally and what with the. Kiwis and helped to set up intimacy coordinators out Toro and Equity New Zealand in like I think it's like 2015 or something like pretty early. Did a sort of talk with actors and with.
Movers and shakers in the industry about working on intimacy to try and establish practice. So although it's sort of only got formalized in the last few years, of course people have been trying to figure it out in their own ways. There's been movement directors and choreographers and fight directors and stuff, coordinators who have been having to deal with intimate scenes and have been trying their best to make it work, as well as directors and costume departments.
Often that would fall on there. Full to them to try and like making nudity feel safe. Basically as long as there has been like live performance and theater, there has been senses of intimacy and there have been people dealing with it in some way and that has sometimes been very bad and sometimes been good and sometimes been fine and everything in between. So yes, more formally last couple of years, but I kind of.
Like to give a sense of that there is that history and that legacy and there've been people working on in all sorts of ways who might not even be kind of properly known about or or credited in this, in the journey of what it's taken to get intimacy, coordination to where it is now.
Yeah, it seems like it because you mentioned like communication and trust building between performers and whoever's supervising seems like that would that would be a huge benefit to have a point person that is specifically in charge of that so like. What What are instances in which, like the intimacy coordinator would like, I guess, step in on behalf of the performer to kind of intervene
like on a project? Yeah, it's a really good point what you say, because I think some directors feel like they work really well with actors. They have a real good sense of trust. Costume teams can sometimes be like, look, we really know what we're doing. We have a really good sense with the with the performance of what this is movement folks like any there's lots of producers like.
I think sometimes people feel a bit threatened that we're turning up to be like, you're being terrible, we're here to do it right, which isn't true at all. Like, they might have an amazing relationship and be really good at dealing with it, but ultimately they're doing so many things that costume departments are so stretched, they have so much they're trying to do. Directors are focusing on 1000 things. There's 1000 people they're
trying to please. And we are there like with such a priority for well-being and making sure this goes well and that people are feeling pleased and proud of this work that they're making so. I think, yeah, it's partly just that that is our like real focus and something that we're particularly looking out for when we step in is basically, yeah, I mean with those kind of two hats you're thinking about particularly with the kind of wellbeing side of things, it's
if things are just beginning to shift amiss. So whether that is that could be for so many reasons, right. It could be that I'm just sort of sensing that something's that someone's beginning to sort of tire or feel a bit uncomfortable in a situation. Or something is going on. It might not even be clear what it is, but part of being an intipacy coordinator is you're quite good at kind of reading people and sort of empathy and emotional intelligence in that
way. So if you can just sort of sense that something's going a bit wrong, that you can step in and be like, how are things going? And they can. Then relate to you something you might have never imagined, could have no one could have planned for and that they can speak to you. If people are using sort of unprofessional inappropriate language can be something that you kind of trying and shift that that sense of things we try and work in on an anatomical professional language right.
But particularly step in if things are shifting beyond what was agreed, so if firstly in the kind of most obvious sense. If you've agreed a level of nudity or a certain type of simulated sexual action, that will usually be in an actor's rider. Well, it has to be an actor's rider. So that means that it sort of contractually actually can't go beyond that.
So for the sake of production as well, if things start to shift and become a higher level of nudity or simulated sex than what's planned, I'm there to be like, oh, this actor actually didn't agree to that, even though there's sort of.
Beginning to move into it and maybe they're see even saying that they're OK, like we just need to check in that they definitely are OK. But also like we have to stop and and talk about this because that's not what's in the rider and we won't get into the boring like technicalities of this because. But in the US, to my knowledge I'm not American and you're not allowed in a sag after after a contract to change a rider within 48 hours.
In the UK that's not a thing. So you can change it, but you need to. Step away and I actually change that or else you might not be able to use that footage, right. So I might intercept in that way. If a director is just being inappropriate or trying to kind of do something which I feel is like weaponizing sort of power dynamics or infringing on a performance boundaries, then I'll have to step in. But.
And then the other times I step in and when I'm like creatively this just looks terrible or like I think it's not telling the story you want it to tell. Like it doesn't make like sense. And like I'm a queer intimacy coordinator if just off it'll be kind of like the round look like queer mechanics of sex that I'm like that just doesn't Queer viewers will not resonate with
this. Then sometimes I'll step in and be like we gotta do something here, like just, you know, I'm and they can ignore me, but like. And I won't put my foot down in the same way, right, If it's sort of creative reasons over well-being, but then sometimes I will. Yeah, try and try and make a comment at least. Have you watched Dickinson?
No, OK. I only ask because some of their scenes was very reminiscent of a recent project that you've done, and I wasn't sure if like you had any hand in that because it was, it was very great. I'll just say that. OK. OK, great. I'll watch it. Is there a different approach
you have to LGBTQ plus scenes? Yeah, So I mean in in lots of ways, no, right that you're still doing all the same things you gotta do. You're still speaking to actors, being to directors, talking about the scenes, talking to costume. Hair makeup if you need to, stunts if you need to, Assistant director teams, like all that stuff is still the kind of foundations of the work are the same. The differences are that around L, GB, TQ, plus scenes I have a bit more of an eye for.
Kind of like what assumptions have been made around how this scene is going to be constructed, and does this feel realistic? If realism is what we're going for, it's not what it's working for. Does it feel realistic for this type of sex and for this community? And I feel a bit more of a sense of responsibility to like the queer viewers, right, of going what? How is this going to situate within like a body of work of like queer representation?
And you know, because I'm, I care about that, that body of work and and how it situates within that going. I might be more likely to say just so you know, team like, we're doing something which is a bit of a trope within like queer representations. It's not something which doesn't happen. It does happen. But just to know that, like that might be something that people
will pick up on, right? And I'm there for sort of production the creative team, if they have those questions because they might not know or might not, you know, they might be really excited about saying which they think is a really interesting take on queerness. And I'm like, actually, like the queer community is kind of like, we get that and we get that a bit too much and like it would be more.
Realistic or dynamic or interesting if we sort of skewed inside this way so there's there's sort of that creative set of things and then working on L, GB, TQ plus content. I never like ask the the sexual experiences of the performers I work with of course like that is their personal life. This is professional work. There's a boundary between that, but I'm like more likely to explain Either an actor might disclose that they don't know this type of sex or.
But regardless, I may be more likely to kind of make sure I'm really clear with the beats of what the sex will look like and what the feelings might be and how we might perform that. I mean, we do that whenever we've never assumed that someone has an experience of sex. No matter what you're you're doing, like you always embed it in choreography and and like kind of physical movement language.
But with any kind of clear choreography and quick content, I might be a little like more clear and specific about those things because. Partly just, I feel like it's not done well very often, so I want to make it really clear and really good. And because queer, straight, CIS, trans, anything, you're we've just seen less queer content. So regardless of your actual identity, you've seen it less. You might just be like slightly less able to like feel like you can really confidently embody
that. So is everything really calculated rather than? I guess the word would be like improv in a scene? Sorry about sirens. Yeah. So, yeah, when I'm not really in the business of improv, but but that's not to say. And yes, we're really about choreographing it and making it clear within that. But that's also not to say that it's like aggressively, like it has to be exactly this or I'm gonna kick off like, depending on the project.
And depending on the needs of the actors, it can be about creating like a framework and a container for what something is and then what it's definitely not. And then allowing effort be some like scope of of finding it within that and then having a really robust sense of how you
check in through that process. So some performers I work with really don't want certain types of touch or certain type of kissing or whatever it is. And we make that clear, we'll go through that and make sure that their boundaries are going to be respected and then. You might create like a shape of it or like some key beats we want to hit, but we might not
absolutely everything. Every hand mover we might we might not say exactly what those have to be and but that like some actors and and intimacy coordinators might, you know, will work a bit differently in that capacity. But you know, I have a colleague, Lucy Fennel, who's brilliant, whose background is in improv, and she's really interested in how that intersects of like improv and intimacy because. Sort of part of intimacy is
informed consent, right. You have to be informed about something that's going to happen. And sort of that feels like inherently at loggerheads with improv. But actually, you know, she's really big on the fact about how and she's not the only one. I'm sure there's lots of people working in this field of like how you can actually marry that. And you know there's there's truly like improv shows just doing improv who can embed a good intimacy practice into their shows.
And I really believe that like and I think us being too like. If you have any improv, then it's not intimacy, and that's terrible. I think that actually just does a disservice because that is gonna happen. There are improv shows. There are directors and actors who want to work with an element of improv. And that's OK as long as we have the kind of support system in place. That's my opinion. Got. It no.
And that makes perfect sense. And I've heard I've read that in quotes of people being like, well, it takes the spontaneity out of it, but the marriage of the two seems like really the key because. Communication, trust and all those things. Exactly.
It's like, you know, you're going, yes, I want to be spontaneous, but actually can't be spontaneous because all I'm worried about is that my Co star is going to touch this part of my body or do this thing that I really don't want them to do and then I'm there to go, right. This isn't happening. This is the framework of what roughly needs to happen. Anyone got any problems? And you're like, yeah, I also worry that you're going to do this.
And they're like, oh, no, let's definitely not do that. We go, great, OK, let's like, work this through and let's find spontaneously what happens with this kind of quality. And then? You go for and then afterwards someone says that's perfect. Apart from this moment, I feel like it went a bit too far. Can we, like, not do that next time we go? Yeah, great, let's not do that next time. Like, it doesn't have to be this
like real. I think some people who say the kind of kill spontaneity thing thinks I'm going to come in with like a clipboard and a high vis jacket and be like. Everyone stay away from each other and do exactly what I say here. I'm gonna report everyone like that's not this is about, I'm there to like make it work and make people feel like they can do their jobs in a like creative way that they're pleased about. So yeah, I think people just
don't. Usually people who say that I have, like, not actually worked for an intipa sequence, they just don't like the idea. Of it. And they've just decided in their head kind of what it is. It's very strange. Yeah, and it seems like. That would be, you know, advantageous, especially to an actor who's never been in an intimate scene on that level before. So how do you approach an actor if it's like, it's their first like sex scene ever?
Like how would you approach that particular performer? Yeah, yeah. I mean it's so nerve wracking, right? Like I think people, some people have like oh, they're actors or whatever. Like no, like they want to be an actor. They don't necessarily know that they are gonna have to do this. Or like, even if they think they might have to do it, it's still such a. It's a big thing to have to do at work in front of all your colleagues. Then I go on lunch and then come back to work the next day.
Like it's very strange. So basically when I come to work with new actors, it's just, you know, actually early career or even sometimes I've worked with actors who are not early career and they were like, look, I've managed to get through my career without having to do one of these scenes and I thought it would be my time at some point. And look, here it is, it's my time. I have to do it. It's just about being really clear with the process and and.
Really having space for them to ask all those questions that are in the back of their head, they're worried about so many times there's just something that they're worried is going to happen or they've had a friend have a bad experience, which they're like apparently this might happen sometimes. Like, is that a thing? And I can go it can be. We're going to make sure that doesn't happen or like this is what we do, if that happens, etcetera.
So it's basically coming to it with no assumptions, really, going from square one and explaining absolutely everything and then answering. Ask you any questions they have because you just can't predict what is in someone's head with people and personalities and creativity, like that's such a subjective space. You just got to meet people where they're at. So yeah, I just might give a
little bit more time. I might ask production either to have a bit more rehearsal or to make sure we have rehearsal, depending what the content is. Some scenes, they might go, oh, there's enough time to rehearse on the day, if it's something kind of lower level for some. The earlier career or actors who haven't had experience of intimacy, I might say no, look, we really should have a time to rehearse this before.
And yeah, it's really that. But then sometimes there were people who've done like tons of sex scenes and they still really want support through it. And then some people who it's their first time and they feel completely empowered and completely fine. So you like the more I do this job, the more I think that I'll, like settle into like, knowing what's what. And actually just the more I go,
you can never know. Like there is no, there's no that you can't assume that anything's gonna be the case. You've just gotta approach each project as it comes. I've seen a couple people I don't remember who. Who've been like in the industry a while. Talk about how they don't understand why intimate state coordinators have to be there. I don't want to work with them. Have you faced any reluctance from people? Yeah, totally. It's a bit less, Bit less so
nowadays. But like in those early years, it makes me sound like I'm ancient. But in those early years working with people for the first time, there's a lot yeah, weird resistance either like, you know active resistance where people are sort of going like I didn't know what this is or why I need it or a sort of confusion that ends up as a sort of frustrated unwillingness to to properly collaborate. But it's much better now. Now I don't find I have such a problem and it's people are now
like okay. I've worked with one or two intimacy coordinate like this is fine. Yeah. People I think people were worried that we were sort of stepping on toes that would tell people they're not allowed to do what they want to do.
Even really recently I worked on something where the director came to me with a real energy of like don't worry like they don't have to do anything and we can keep it really small and we can just do like if they don't want to do it, we don't have to do it. Like let me know. And I was like I'm not here to like shut it down. Like I'm here to make it work and and work in a way that people can be happy with this intimacy including you director. So they tell me what you actually want.
And if you have quite bold ideas for what it is, then tell me as bold it is. And it might not be possible. But like, I'm the person who can, like, help make that happen if you wanted to. And he's kind of like, oh, OK.
And then I spoke to the actors and they were like, could not be more chill about it. So I could like actually help to carefully make something which was a bit higher intensity than he was sort of initially asking for because he was sort of really like low, low, low, low about it all. And he was like, yeah, this is perfect. And I was like, yeah, like, look, it's fine. I'm here to like make it work. You're like, that's my job, Well, literally my job to make it happen in a safe way.
So there was a lot of that kind of like winning over sometimes had to happen and having to be sort of hesitant and not look like, yeah, you're gonna ruin everything for people. And yeah, I mean, actors, we usually happier to have you there, but some actors as well were kind of sometimes actors were a bit like burnt by the fact that this that, you know, you arriving then they're like, I haven't had this for years of
my career. And now you're turning up and like you're going to just swan in and like make this a good process. Like there's a sort of weird resentment about it, which I can totally appreciate. Like how frustrating that must be to see it start to be done well and then almost in that realize how badly it's been
treated in the past. Or you've sort of had to like toughen up and like get a thick skin in order to be able to do it. And then someone's like, anyway, you don't need that thick skin the same way I'm here to like help and you're like, but I've built this thick skin because I've had to like what are you just I can't just like flick a
switch and turn that off. So yeah, so some of the some of the resistances is, you know, terrible and based on just like not really wanting there to be a content based process. But some of the resistance, I sort of get a bit more of like, yeah, it's difficult. And, you know, I spoke to a director really recently who we worked well together and he was like, look, we had a good time working together. But the first intimacy coordinator I worked with, they
just turned up one day. And directors, we had no training or knowledge. We weren't given any tools, like how we meant to work with intimacy coordinators. Like, it's quite a weird, like, dynamic. And I was like, yeah, we've sort of all had to learn on the job. So I I don't do this often. But to give a bit of due respect to those directors having to work with the divisive 180 for the first time and sort of slightly floundering with it.
Like I do appreciate that there was strangeness to that. But but there was also a real difference between the directors who are like, I don't really know what I meant to do with you, but yes, this is important. And the directors who are like, I don't want to do with you and I don't think this is important, please go away, but yeah. I'm trying to picture a director just like so is it a director's choice to have you there or not?
Or is it like higher up on the chain, so now most can have big production studios. It's like policy. They have to have an intimacy coordinator. So like HBO, Netflix, Amazon, BBC, I'm pretty sure like all of them sort of have like if there's simulated sex, if there's nudity, you have to have an intimacy coordinator.
So that is like a good basic. But then when you get into kind of kissing where usually like you should really have us, but it's sort of a bit less like essential like policy based. And then all those intimate moments that I mentioned earlier that really you should have an intimacy coordinator or at least have to have a conversation around it that can still be difficult to persuade people that it's needed.
If it comes from an actor, usually, then they're like, OK, fine, If an actor is like, I want the intimacy coordinates there depending a bit on the actor and their status, like, they'll be like finest to it. But to answer your question, so with that in line, usually it's a producer somewhat higher up who like engages the intimacy coordinator and then we'll say, all right, intimacy coordinator do look at all the scripts and
tell us when you're needed. And then there can be a little bit of like a a negotiation of when you're exactly there and a really good production though That means that I look at the script, have a chat with the director about what they're imagining, have a chat with the actors about how they feel about it. And then with the actors, the actors that are like I actually feel completely fine about that content. Like I don't need you there.
As long as X is happening and you said that's going to happen, then great. And I'll be like cool, fine. Like if no one needs me there, I'm not going to, you know, consent based practice. I'm not going to turn up. But no one wants to be there. Or an actor says, look, I know this seems quite low intensity, but like, I really want someone there. I'm really nervous about it. And they might say don't tell anyone that I've said you that like, just between us, I really want you there.
But I want to seem really like aloof and like, I don't care. Like I'm worried about how I seem. I don't want to be seen as like a problem or a difficult actor. So then I have to go to production and be like, I've decided that it's quite important that I'm there for the scene. And then they're like, what? The scene seems really low intensity and I'm like, I just really want to be there. Then they're like, OK, fine.
So then productions usually, if they're good, are like totally, and a director can be a bit annoyed. But I'm just like, look, I'm coming, yeah. But then sometimes I work with directors who are like, so happy to have you there, right. I don't want direct seem to be like the directors are always the kind of barrier to it. Directors sometimes like, what do you mean? I have to like, tell this actor how to, like, simulate an orgasm. Like, this is terrible.
I don't want to have to do that. I'm not prepared to do that as a director. Please let there be an intimacy coordinator there who could like, do give me that language. And I can speak to them in a frank way and they can know and go and deliver that like in a sensitive way. Like, you know, obviously it's not just actors and therefore it's the whole team, the whole crew, production, everyone. And yeah, yeah, so it can happen. Feel like it would definitely be easier to have you there.
Yeah, well this is the thing like worst case scenario, like you know, you might just stand around and not do very much. But the comparison is like for ages I would always feel a bit like guilty about being there and then being like I'm not really doing anything. Everyone is actually fine. But then it is about risk, right? Like, if you have like a push, right? They might have the stunt coordinator there and they do the push and they're like, actually now we're doing the
push. Everyone's fine. We don't really do the stunt coordinator. But thank goodness they're here. In case this push became bigger or in case we needed we decided we would push against the wall or he'd trip over or whatever. And no one would bat an eyelid about having into the stunt coordinator there for that. And yet we'd be really guilty. Like, thank you so much for having us here. We're so sorry because it was this new role when we're there and then weren't really used.
And Ditto, like there's a fire on set. The fire is very clear. There's a safety in where this fire's gonna be in one place. No one's near the fire. Like, it's very safe. But they have to have someone there to make sure that if something goes wrong with the fire, there's someone there to, like, be in charge of the fire, right. So I think, yeah, like you say, best case scenario you're really involved and like really doing things and it's and it's that's great.
Worst case scenario, you're standing around and everyone can just feel confident that rest assured, if something bad happened, there is the intimacy coordinator here and sometimes I'm just there and I go, you're clear with what you're doing. Director let me tell you, they're clear with what they're doing. Actors, you can come to me if you need and they're like great. And then everyone can sort of crack on and I'll check in and I'll be there.
But it's sometimes just being there at all that actually helps alleviate some stress and means that everyone can do their good work. So, yeah, yeah, it's yeah. Do you ever just hang out at Crafty? Yeah, don't don't. A good crafty situation. Crafty I should say, tempted me with your American I sound so British with like craft and craft. I just sound like that's the most British I could possibly sound. English I should say.
But yeah, that's a that's a danger for me to be able to do my job properly if I'm being wooed in by the good craft services. As long as it's good, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's the that's the important thing. All right. That one. OK. I missed a question, which is why we were. That's why I was deleting. Yeah. Sorry. OK, back to it and we can, there can be other questions, don't worry about whatever is fine. I didn't even have the question on my screen.
That was the issue. All right, So what is the difference between intimacy direction and coordination? So different intimacy professionals use slightly different language. For me and a lot of my colleagues, we talk about intimacy direction for live performance. So typically theater and intimacy coordination for recorded media. So music videos, TV film ads, etc. But some people say intimacy coordination for everything. Some people like I don't hear you so much intimacy coach used
to be used. We don't really. I don't know anyone who uses that in terms of this work. To me, that might be something more about actual people's real personal. Right. Like outside of film? Exactly. So I don't want any confusion, but that's not what I do. You don't want me to fix your real personal marriage or anything? Has anyone ever asked you something like that for like personal in like in at parties and things people will be like oh so you do this, this that's
part of that world. I'm like, no, no, no, that's really just that. And in another podcast I did recently, they were like, you know what's what are some kind of tools that people can use in their real lives? And I'm like, well there are sort of things that are inherent intimacy practice which are just good for people's real lives, like communication, real rigorous, like consent based
practice. So I can happily talk about that, but, like, also clear that I'm not here to help people coordinate their actual intimate lives. Yeah. It's like a doctor going to a party. Like, can you check this thing out? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But also it's like, it's, I'm such a party people in a way. Because people be like, oh, yeah, So what? Like, how does that actually impact, like, real people's intimacy lives? And I'm like really good consent practice. And they're like, all right.
Like, you know, I think they want me to say something really like sexy or like scandalous or exciting or surprising. And I'm like honestly, the best thing is like being really good at having a real fluency with consent And and really like training that skill of how you identify consent and work with consent and use consent based language like that is the best thing for working as an intimacy coordinator, which also translates to people's real intimate lives.
But people don't want to hear that. That's not, that's not the kind of, yeah, exciting arts they were hoping for. Have you had since you've been doing this for a bit? Do you have any, like, memorable moments from, like, working with actors as an intimacy coordinator like that you were like, very proud of?
Yeah, yeah, it's hard because a lot of the exciting moments are like little successes that come when you're working with people and you managed to just like navigate a little tricky situation well and and people can be pleased about it. There's been moments I'm proud of when things have gone very badly, like this happened very rarely.
There's basically one instance that I remember that obviously I can't talk about too much detail but when things were going really awry and it's like the first time I've been on set and that really happened and going like OK have you take that little step back and go right okay things that things people aren't happy things are going wrong and and managing to just you know advocate for that actor and stop things going properly wrong and anyone being kind of long term harmed or or any
boundaries being crossed in a in a properly damaging way. But, but then also doing that in a way that the actor felt like supported and yet it not for the actor's sake, not made into something that they didn't want it to be made into, right. They felt like they could carry on with the scene and have that support and it and etcetera. And and that was kind of beyond the shooting of the scene of like how we dealt with that as well. So I felt proud of that.
The scenes of queerness that I've worked on, where I've watched it and been like, okay, wow, like, I think that I don't think that's that scene exists for two queer people. I don't think that sits like a Canon of theater, of Canon of of television or film that hasn't been seen before. And then hearing like queer people's reactions and it resonating with people like makes me feel very proud.
And like, I think it's really meaningful to think of particularly like representation is like more like loving and romantic queer sex. I don't think like we get a lot of that and particularly like sex scenes between men often represented quite like fraught and conflicted and rough and sort of often I love less. And whilst like we should absolutely have that representation of sex. Like we have all representations of sex. Like I think getting to for people who are like look I think
I'm queer. I am queer and I want to just be able to have like a loving sex. I want to know that it's possible for me in my future of like having just like nice loving sex between people and being able to be part of amongst the actors and directors and everyone be one part of, like, helping to create. That has has felt very meaningful. Yeah, yeah, they're the kind of the big things that I've been proud of, yeah.
But then it's like it's often, honestly, it's sometimes you'll work on a scene and it will seem quite straightforward. You'll get through it and it'll be fine. And then like the actual message you afterwards and say thank you so much. I was so nervous about it today and you just made it really straightforward. And that's like what I'm all about, right? Like I said that it the people are so, so worried about them.
I mean, I understand that we'll be worried about them, but it's partly because of the context of how badly they've gone for people in the past. But to be a part of making that a safer process and more enjoyable process, or when people are like that was actually really fun. Like every good time. I'm really proud of that scene like that. That makes me feel very happy. Yeah, that's wonderful to be able to get the validation.
I like that you gave those two examples, the validation from the performers, creators, and then also the audience, which I feel like sometimes the audience is missing. So I'm glad you've had. Where would I have both of those experiences? Yeah, cuz sometimes the actors like are completely fine and they're like really like there's
no like danger. They're feeling pretty confident and and and so really then you get a chance to really craft something that you feel is meaningful and exciting for audiences that they can resonate with. And that's so exciting to get to see that. And then, yeah, getting to hear people's reactions. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, so far. Is there ever a time where you feel like a project has too many
unnecessary, intimate scenes? Yeah, I've I actually, I'm lucky to have not worked on things where I've gone. This is so obviously gratuitous. It's more likely to rather than the scene existing at all. It's more likely to be like how the scene is like constructed. So going like OK, they're being
a sex scene. It says at the bottom of the scene like they are having sex or they have sex or like they start to have sex with me and then you talk to the director and the actors etc. And then, you know you can do that in a million ways, right? That can just be a shots of people's faces and hands. And like, you can it doesn't just because there is a sex and doesn't mean it needs to feel, quote UN quote, like gratuitous or explicit or anything like
that. But then sometimes people will someone, whoever it is, will say, like, I really feel like it needs to have this in it. Well, like, I think we need to do this. And I'm not in the business of like shutting everything down to be really limited just for the sake of it and to be honest, if if someone what goes like look, this is just to feel kind of like shocking or feel like it is really kind of sexually forward and everyone's on board with that, they're like, fine, I'm not really in.
Again, it's not really my place to go. This doesn't need to be there because right, like there's lots of things that don't need to be there. But if people decide that it is sort of makes sense for the world of the show and everyone's on board with that, then fine. But my issue comes with if someone is like really pushing for some level of nudity or sex or act or whatever it is that an actor is like, I guess like, yeah, I'm doing that.
And the other scene where I feel like it really makes sense. I don't know why it really needs to be here for this. Like, I don't have an issue with it in principle. I've done it, you know, before and I'm OK with it. But sometimes actors can get the place where they the fact that it feels quite unnecessary just also sort of makes them
uncomfortable. And in that case then I'm really there to be like look like there's other ways we could do this but sometime before it's even gone to the actor, if someone a director or producer or it's in the script or or anything sort of implies quite a high extremity action. I'll at that point be kind of like, OK, what do you need to get out of the seat? Like, what do you want the
viewers to to get here, right? Because sometimes then it's like I want to feel like really shocked or like really surprised or sort of feel creeped out or whatever it is and I can go, OK, great. So you you're asking for a level of nudity, which you think will achieve that.
Maybe that'll be fine. But can I suggest that maybe we do it in this way or we could do it with seeing this reaction or with this kind of like moot like physical reaction that we see which is mainly just played out like above the collarbones, right? Or we can play it out like closer shots or the sense of like muscles and their reaction or backs or whatever, like this, or hands pressed together, whatever it is, there's like, partly I'm there to give like
creative solutions, right? So even if that's not come, I mean, definitely if it's come from an actor saying I don't want to do that, then I come in to go, yeah, doesn't want to do that. You want to achieve this with those things. I think this is the best way to
make you both happy. But even before that point, if I feel like they they think the best way to achieve something is by a really high level intensity, high intensity level of intimacy, I might go, OK, like, can I suggest these like potentials for it? And then sometimes they go, Oh yeah, that's way better. Or sometimes they go no, for whatever reason, I really think this is the best way. And then I go, OK, great, Let's let's talk about that. Yeah. Does that answer your question?
Yes. All right, so you also have training in sexual harassment, bullying and harassment, unconscious bias, queer awareness, bystander intervention. How does all of those skills help you as an intimacy coordinator? Yeah, yeah. So as part of that intimacy for stage and screen training, like you had to do those things as part of that. And I think a lot of training programs will say that you have to to do those those those bits of training we have to be adult mental health first aiders as
well. So they're all like like different things. But the, I guess to take a step back, it's to say you know we're working with sensitive content and we're there to be able to in those quite those spaces which are just a little bit more of sight of risk like tensions is like to be higher, emotions a bit higher. There's more likely to be some like sticking points or points where there's a challenge to what someone might feel
comfortable doing. And that little whirlwind of of space means that those kind of elements of bullying and harassment, I mean building harassment, sexual harassment, obviously all those things then are just like more I I feel slightly more likely to be cut in play.
But what's really important to remember is that, you know, we are there sometimes like 1% of the time, right, depending on what the nature of the project is and the production just need to have a robust sense of this stuff regardless of us being there and we're not there to be sort of bullying and harassment police obviously, right? That is like HR, that is production. That is a separate thing.
It is just for us to know about that because that will that will all fuse into how the intimacy is navigated from like a pre production to post production level, right.
If there is a sense of kind of that bullying and harassment language or dynamic then I need to be kind of trained in how to acknowledge that because that might be affecting what happens with the intimacy knowing what sexual harassment is and looks like in like it's true like actual and the nuance of that I need to know when working on intimacy obviously L GB, TQ plus awareness obviously for just you know being able to work
sensitively with those groups. Unconscious bias because it get you know I'm working on like very sensitive space and I mean everyone should do unconscious training but which is particularly for that. And then adult mental health, first age because we work on content which has like a risk to it around emotional, psychological, well-being you're in a space where you're more likely to expect to trigger
response or trauma response. And so whilst you know, you should have again like full mental health support for those people in in a crisis and not just in a crisis. And so the preparation too in terms of that first aid response, we're just kind of ready to deal with that because it might be something that they might be triggering content. Yeah. So that I think, I mean it's I really it's great to do for anyone and it's not difficult to
do those trainings. But yeah, it's just an awareness of that being a kind of slightly more fraught space. Yeah. It sounds like it's more so about the environment that you'll be working in and the power dynamics that happens and all that kind of nuance like you said that goes into this particular setting. As well as what you're coordinating. Yeah, exactly. This. It's a, it's a beautiful, wonderful industry in lots of ways. And it's also a slightly scary
industry in lots of ways. In terms of it. There's a lot of money thrown around when there's a lot of money around. There's a lot of urgency. The, you know, time means money and people are rushing to get stuff done. And there's some, you know, big powerful people in the space and not in space and behind projects. And like with all that in the mix, it's like it is just something you have to not take for granted as something which is just going to be fine, right.
There's there's a lot in play for people. I think we forget particularly those people who have been in the industry forever and it's maybe the only industry they've been in that they, you know, just take that little step back and going like look at what we're doing and look at what's actually happening between these individuals in this space and what's at stake for people financially in terms of their career. And like there's just so much on
the line. So like, you know, you can't just think you're going to wing it and get by that you have to be tuned into what that really looks like. And I think some people don't like to look at that because it sort of exposes what a tricky space it really is. It's nicer to just go. But we're all sort of pals and like there can be a really nice family feel on set and on a production sometimes then sort of. And you're all there together all day, every day, and you sort
of have to be pals or not. But yeah, it's a it's a strange one, you know. There's loads of joys to it, but there's real things to be wary of as well. So when I was looking you up for these questions, I noticed that you are also a theater director and started Airlock Theater Company which has a play titled Lesbian Space Drama. Please tell us more lesbian space crime. Not just any old drama, a specific crime. Lesbian space crime, Yes. So yeah, my background's in
theater. Like as a kid I was doing theater at university. I didn't study theater, but I did theater more than I did my degree. And then got into directing and then went out into the world and was assisting directors. And I was assisting directors and creating theater and new plays. And yeah, I still do that. Yeah, so like say that in that creation of new plays and working in theater, I set up airlock just really as a sense of like I'm making theater.
So I have to do that with the company in some capacity. And in early years, it was a bit more like ad hoc and sort of figuring it out a bit. And then sort of more recently with my colleagues Rose Super and Catcher Hamilton sort of established the company bit more properly.
And now with Eleanor Colville, we created Lesbian Space Crime last year, which was sort of like a few years in the making because of pandemic slowing things down, which we performed at the Soho Theatre in London off West End. And you hear, which is just sort of like a big queer musical romp, a whole thing with airlock and theater creating is is about sort of more like interesting takes or like unseen takes on
queerness. That was really about kind of pressures of representation of like pressures of feeling like you're an ambassador for a community when you might not want to be, when you're in sort of public eye position. As well as being sort of like slightly older queer person in a sort of complicated marriage with a kid. And being a queer person in space. And how the sun is queer as well, so as in the sun and the sky, not the sun. I mean, we can all relate to
being queer in space, right? Yeah. I mean space is just so queer. The thing about space, which is so queer, right? Cuz it's just like, what's it doing up there? It's sort of everything and nothing like classic. I mean, have you seen the Colors in space? No, the literally colors. No, it's got every color up there, exactly, like 100%, like maybe, like black holes are more homophobic. I was like, what's this queer film called The Colors in Space? I was like, what's that? What?
Who's. But apart from that, like, it's all pretty. It's pretty clear up there. We don't talk about black holes all the time. Yeah, so we did that, and now we're working on the next one, which is pansexual pregnant piracy, which based on a true story of Anne Bonnie, who's a queer. Yes, Pirate. Yeah, Who was assigned female at birth and dressed as a man on the seven seas to be able to be
a pirate. And then got pregnant and then started to, like, get it on with this other pirate who turned out to be another woman pretending to be a man, and who also got pregnant, Mary Reed. And so we sort of used that as, like finding your queerness and queer spaces and sort of like pregnancy and queerness. Yeah, it's just so fun and so silly. And that is, that's real creative, joyful times, but yeah. Your shows sound very interesting. I know. I wanna see them all.
Yeah, we'll do the tour to America at some point, I'm sure. Please, I can't wait. Well, Robbie, it's been so great getting to know you better. Thank you so much for taking for talking to us today. Before we sign off, do you have any final words for the listeners at home and things? I feel like I've spoken loads. Not enough.
We should have had enough of me I guess if you're British intimacy coordinator I you know I'm I'm on the beck to union committee and we're doing lots of work with the beck to committee to like have further intimacy coordination and intimacy practice in the industry. So like keep a lookout for that if you're in the industry and kind of want to know more of how you meant to work with intimacy
coordinators. Like we have shooting talents there and also to say that there's the Sagatra strikes happening over in the US at the I mean I'm British so I'm not
covered by that. I think even the intimacy coordinator in the US aren't technically covered by it but obviously they're striking in solidarity and and in that there is negotiation around intimacy coordination and and I think that is something that that people are sort of seeming to actually agree on amongst lots of things they're not agreeing on. So I'd like to think that with the with the strikes, they'll be a sort of a further support or
or at least a kind of more concrete support for intimacy coordination cut in the policy. So just, yeah, my my support and solidarity to all all the people really on the front lines of haggling through all of that and how frustrating that must be. And everyone's striking. Amazing. So to everyone at home listening, make sure to follow Robbie on social media because he's awesome. And check out Airlock Theater Company, because they're always gonna have amazing shows, apparently.
Really, You really need to come to America anyway. Until next time, hydrate for lesbian, Jesus and gay enough all over the place. Bye. Thank you. And with that, we've been big gay energy. If you like this episode, check out all our other episodes on whatever you're using to listen right now. If you're listening on Apple, we'd really appreciate it if you left us a review. No matter how brief, it helps us get into Apple's algorithm to
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