Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Bree. I'm Fiora. And I'm Caitlin. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters, and we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. On today's Big Gay Agenda is a very special book club. Today we will finally dive into Rainbow Islands, a book we have talked about over and over on this podcast. But what makes it extra special
is that we are not alone. We'll be talking with the author, Devin. So welcome to the chaos, Devin. Thanks for being here. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Yay. We are so excited. I want to start before we kind of get into questions and kind of explain how we found out about this book. So one of my friends like, recommended this book to me. And my friend Pete and Pete found this book at a very pivotal moment in their life.
And I want to read you something that they sent to me because I I told them we were going to talk to you. And so this is a message from Pete. To quote The first time I found Rainbow Islands, it was by accident. The day before I started my transition, it held my hand like a kindly old man offering me tea and a warm fire in from a storm. I don't know how else to describe it. I've reread it so many times and recommended to every queer person I meet. I want a tattoo for it VS Malestram.
I'm so grateful for what you've done and I'm as grateful for the chance to say thank you. Oh God, that's so sweet. You're like, you're gonna make me cry. On my first podcast, it made me cry already. Yeah, well, to be honest, so much the book made me cry so oh. God, thank you so much. That means so much to me. I'm glad. That we got the chance to do this good. I'm happy to hear that. There's so many good things about this book. Not only is it does it, you know, help people.
My my absolute favorite thing about it though, is, is how we got the book. Like, for me, it's proof that, like, not all heroes wear Cape capes. So for those that don't know, the origin of rainbow islands starts like this. Once Upon a time, there was a troll on Tumblr that was wildly unaware of the power of the Internet. So, Devin, could you explain the infamous Tumblr post that brought us here together today?
So apparently there's a post where this, like, terrible bigot guy was like, homosexuality is kind of natural. Because if you took all of the lesbians and put them on an island and all of them put them on another island, they would die out within a generation. And then a lot of, like, queer people got a hold of this post and they started like, ripping on it and making comments and being like, well, where's this? Where's this straight island that's exiling people?
And like, have you seen lesbians around wood? They would build boats immediately and and then it became this like dystopian, like adventure story about like the the queer people on the islands getting into like a war with the straight people who excel them. And I was like, OK, this is super cool. And it was in my mind for like a while. And I just was like, you know, I
feel like I actually happened. Try this and put this into an actual book, because, like, nobody else is apparently in a It's been a while and I haven't seen anybody else take this idea, and I'm like, I'm just going to roll with it because I mean, how many different variations can you make?
Infinite, right? So I decided to do this for Nanowrimo 2016. If you don't know, Nanowrimo is National Novel Writing Month. Place in November and if you remember November 2016 and what that was like, I wrote this book in a white hot fever of like despair and rage and like kind of defiant hope. And it's basically like an expression of all of my, like, queer anger and frustration and and also like a love letter to the community.
And uplifting myself and trying to, like, get some positivity out of this like, horrible thing that we all went through. Yeah, the the I love that a love letter to the community is definitely how it reads. And that was my impression as well. So thank you for being the hero that, like, actually made it a story because it's so, so good and so fun and just the power of the Internet is the best. It's Internet at its finest. I saw the Tumblr post after reading it and I was like, oh shit, OK.
No, me too. And I was just. Reading it, I was like, it's one of those instances where everyone's like, somebody should write this, and then thank goodness you did. I actually like kind of poked around and like searched to see if there was anything. I mean, it's obviously hard to like. Find it based on like a keyword or something.
But I did actually kind of poke around and see like has anybody actually run with the story yet Because I didn't find anything that anybody actually wrote a novel based on any of these ideas that I even write in my, you know, in my office notes think that I own this idea, the general idea of this like what was kind of played out. It was just like it's only literally the story I wrote is the story I wrote.
But please go ahead and write all the different versions with all of the different like orientations and you know people with disabilities and different people with different like racial backgrounds. And so like please write all these stories because we need them. Like you're going to write a totally different version than I am. So just please go and and do something like that. I haven't seen anybody else do it. It would be really awesome if
somebody did. I would like you know, love to do like Co marketing and stuff with them just to like hey man, this is really cool. You should see this. That would be amazing. Yes, I would love that so, so much. Yeah. So if you're, if you're out there, writers that looking for a new story idea, please continue. Rainbow Islands in your vision. All right.
But in this version of Rainbow Islands, our protagonist of the story is Jason. And when we are first introduced to Jason, we learn that he is being exiled by the Mainlanders, which are the Christian Republic in the book. And he's being exiled because he's queer. And at the time he's being exiled, he's basically given a choice, either conversion camp like Rebecca, the girl Jason was kissing, or exile to Rainbow Islands.
And Jason comments that technically he had a choice between those two things, but for him there was no choice. So I'm curious why why Jason felt so strongly entrenched that like there was no decision for him. He's I've been you know, to be told like Transparent about like he's basically sort of like a fantasy version of like me as a teenager. And I wanted to kind of lean into some of my own like, personal feelings and
experience. And I had always been like, I know a lot of there are a lot of queer people who like, wish they weren't queer because of what society says about queer people and how it makes them feel and they try to like wish it away or pray it away and. I'd never actually felt that way before. Like I desperately prayed to be, like, magically turned into a boy. But I've never actually wanted to not be queer.
And I feel like if I had been put in that situation, as much as I am, like truly and deeply a coward, I don't think I'd be able to like, not, you know, I don't think I'd be able to to live with myself. If that takes like going to a conversion camp, I think I would have been like, I'm out of here. You know, whatever comes I'm out of here.
And I I just let that be a thing because I, you know that that Jason's choice kind of makes it a a statement of like what his personality is and his feelings about you know, even though he doesn't really know anything about his identity and the community he's going to be integrated into like he still
has the strong feelings of like. OK, now that I've been given this choice, forced into it, I don't want to deny myself, And I would rather like, head into the unknown and possible, like a life of, you know, difficulty and misery, then survive in a world that's going to turn me into something I'm not. That's so beautifully put. So I I love that it's coming from your perspective of like. What you would you would have done when you were Jason's age, like in that position.
So I'm curious what everybody else did gay energy podcast people. What what would you have done if you were, like, in Jason's position given this? Like, ultimatum choice? I think it depends on which part of my life, because now, yeah, hell yeah, I'm going to those islands, but it's definitely in like high school I. I don't know what my choice would have been like because, like, you're leaving your whole family as well and it's just,
yeah, I I wish I would know. I wish I'm who I was today back then to like have always gone to the islands because, I mean, the islands seem really cool. I don't. I don't think I could have made any other choice but but going because even thinking about myself back at that age, just hearing the blatant homophobia happening around me because I grew up in the, well, I mean, like, not like it didn't happen
everywhere. But in the South in the 90s, it was just like even my softball coach was like, if there were any lesbians on this team, I would, they would immediately be kicked off. And I'm just saying they're like, well, guess I know why my friend didn't make the team and I guess I better not say anything to anybody about anything. So I definitely would have had to go to the island, because I can't imagine being confined and constricted and forced into a like, like in the book.
The whole, because it's just such a metaphor for the whole thing. They're putting you in in the hole is what they're doing and forcing their ideals on you until you break. So I would have had to go to the islands. Yeah, I I agree with that. I I agree with both of you and Caitlin. I to your point like when you're young like it is a hard it is a hard choice because like you know you would have to like at the point where Jason's being given this like.
Choice. What he knows about Rainbow Islands is propaganda from the people who are sending him there. So he's like, oh, it's a terrible place and you're just going to die. And it's like it's they described as like humane death because they're like, well, we don't have to kill. Them like with the. Guns, we're just going to send them on this island where they'll just die off and like keep our hands, you know, kind of like blood free.
So like what he knows is like it's basically he's going to die there versus like this not, which is not what he finds. And so to do so, he'd have to leave his family versus like, being. Indoctrinated by force, essentially into Christianity, which, like, I think if I was 16 and like Jason's age, I would choose the islands. If I was younger than that, maybe I would have made a different decision because I grew up like in a Catholic
household and stuff like that. And so, like I I kind of went through a similar thing with Jason, where I was kind of like grew up in that environment. And so if I was younger, maybe I would have been more impressionable and more like, yeah, like, maybe it's me, I'm the, it's me. Hi I have the problem. You know, fix me. But at 16, I was like, yeah, fuck that. I think I know who I am at this point. It's I'm not the problem, you guys are the problem.
But I would have left. So it's just an interesting question that depends on like your age where you're at in your life I think and perhaps your choice would be different, but it's just very interesting stereo. The other aspect is I do because when I was growing up we ended up going to, I don't know if if you guys are familiar with the the Church of Christ like a mega church, no, like the the very fundamentalist type. They speak in tongues and
etcetera etcetera in any case. So I ended up we ended up going to that church sometimes and any time that church was involved because my relatives are very religious. I even as a kid was like, this is bullshit and it's it's the worst fantasy book I've ever read. I love fantasy and this is horrible. So can I. It always felt so culty to me that I don't think I could have ever gone. That's another reason I couldn't have gone to the conversion
camp. It just it's always felt like a a culty type feel with any kind of super organized religion. Yeah, I. Think I just struggled with accepting myself for so long. That like because I didn't come out to family until my sophomore year of college. So I wish again wish high school I was out because it's been so great. But because I was always trying
to convince myself I wasn't. I don't think I would have been strong enough, especially with what they know about the islands before even getting there, because we have the benefit of knowing how great these islands are. But they don't, no. All right, so when Jason is exiled, he basically gets to bring some possessions with him. And one thing I love is that Jason's like, I don't need anything except my books. Devin, is that what you would have brought with you? Just a bunch of books.
Being told I'm being set to like an island that's basically just, you know, it's going to be some fruit and some sand and that's, you know, you're going to live in a Hut and have nothing. You know, I was like, OK, I got to bring some books with me, bring all my favorites loaded up. And like, he says, like, I don't care about the clothes because I hate everything, you know, that's yeah, I put on my favorite pair of pants and then that's all I need.
Just going to load it up with absolutely Team me would have been like, whoa, I've ever put all the books in. Also agrees with you. I do love when he gets to. He eventually when he starts on New Hope and he gets to the library and then he's like books and then he's like, but no one can have my books like. I love that internal model. Yes, it's so real. The initial possess. I'm just like, OK, I'm not. Looks like people share their stuff, but these are my books. Yeah, these are my books.
I also love because to me, when I read that part, it kind of struck me as the library as the if you had a church on on Rainbow Islands, it would be the library. Right. Like that's the religion. The religion is knowledge, acceptance. And yeah, so I love that. Apart from that, I also appreciated the different governing systems for each group
of Rainbow people. It was a super realistic concept and I'm curious what made you decide on each one and if you could tell us a little bit about the that decision. I think a lot of it was just thinking like OK if these islands are like at least semi independent once they when they start like each like each group of like general group of like queer people, they have slightly different cultures.
To you know to a degree and and we all kind of know that too like OK I was thinking like all right so if you have an island full of lesbians, like what are they, what are they going to come up with as their system And you know it's a little bit less like formal and they have like a matriarch and it's you know somebody who's given that title of like it it it's kind of a almost like a parental title and then you know the the the Gale Island. Alexandra society has a just has
a mayor and it you know it's a little bit more like a like a city structure and then the Aeronautica has like the the Triumph written I just thought that was like a cool thing for that was it was something like I think it was like my idea was that the hospital and the university and I'm like a like a science place or something and that and and that each of those
three like key. Pillars of of the island has the representative and then the the Buccaneers sort of like the you know consensus chaos of you know every captain is their own representative and and then I was like OK they can't so they're going to vote to pick like people to represent like the whole but I thought that was kind of cool have everybody has a little bit of a different system but they all interact
with each other all the time. And when they have to get down to, you know, making a huge decision that's going to affect everybody there, they they still have a system in place for like consensus across all of the different communities. That was awesome. I really enjoyed. I really enjoyed that. And my my only complaint is that I wish there was more book. Yeah, which is always a good
complaint to have with a book. One of the things that I really loved reading is Jason witnessing this island for the first time being like, Oh my gosh, all these people are being themselves. So in the book, the capital of Sapphos is New Hope, and this brought back a core memory I
kind of forgot about. So when I was about 12 or 13, my family visited New Hope, PA. And I don't know if you know that town at all, but it's a place where the 1st place I saw where pride flags were on basically all the businesses, all the houses, there were so many pride flags and people were just being themselves. Like it was the first time I saw same sex couples holding hands and kissing publicly, not caring about it. Anyone what anyone thought and.
Growing up, my family would make jokes about gay people. So like in my head, it's not that they weren't accepting, but it's just like they were a joke and it was just like never something I personally witnessed. So having this town and me witnessing all this, it just really opened my world and I remember the feelings and it's exactly what Jason was feeling when he witnessed this island and. So thank you for capturing that.
I I'm so glad that it it works out and then and it like impacts people because that was the feeling I wanted to capture of this. What? What is it like the first time you truly see your community and know that other people like you exist and they are happy and they have love and they have family and they've built a whole
world where we can be ourselves? And I just was like, OK, I'm going to like, pour all of my feeling into this and and hope that it, you know, reflects back on their reader when they're reading it. It was beautiful. And Fiora let me borrow her book. And so she has notes in her book and I loved, like, being able to read it while I was reading. And she asked a question, What would I have been if I was raised on Rainbow Islands?
And I know that was just a question for herself, but I am actually curious what everyone's answers would be to this. I know I would have realized I was trans way sooner. Like, I always knew I wished to be a boy. And the portrayals that I ever really saw trans people in like media was like either. They were like on talk shows as
this big joke. Or they were in these like, sort of attempting to be thoughtful documentary things where they would portray trans people as like they were so miserable in their previous life that it was kind of like, I have to change my gender or I'm going to kill myself. And I was like, well, I never really think anything like that. So I must not be what they are because I'm not miserable. And it took. Until my 30s.
Until I finally saw like a regular trans man who was like a nerdy dude and had a happy life and just was a a guy. That it clicked for me, though. I'm like, I could be this too. And if I had been, you know, raised in a community like a Rainbow Island, I would have known from like, you know, Tiny, that people like this existed. And I could be that too. Yeah. I want to read where that
thought kind of came from. So it was in Chapter 15 and it's right after Jason like his plan to defeat the Krakenworks. And everyone's like, yeah, we got to give you a cool nickname now because you're you're success like Jason the Kraken Slayer. And he's like kind of struggling to accept himself as like a hero because he still has so much PTSD from like the Christian Republic where he was just hiding who he was and he views himself as a coward and.
Kind of things like that. And so there's this quote where he says, and I'm quoting in the book here. If I'd been raised in Rainbow Islands, I might have been downright dull, a quiet kid who stuck to himself and spent a large portion of his time reading. Then again, maybe I wouldn't have escaped into books so often if real life hadn't been so terrible. And so, like, for me, that's exactly how I feel.
So like, I think we. You know, obviously we have a podcast here about queer representation in media because it's important. And for sometimes that's all we get. Like you're you explained to Devin and it can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what we're viewing. But if it's just part of our normal lives, we wouldn't have to like escape into media to see ourselves. So I I, I agree with you. I feel like the journey of like self discovery would have been a
lot simpler, maybe accelerated. If that was part of the society we were just raised in right off the bat, and I think for Jason too, he wouldn't have struggled with seeing himself as like a whole, you know, complete person, a hero, things like that, because he wouldn't have had all that PTSD and just that little voice in the back of his head that's like, you're bad, Like that comes from that, you know, upbringing he had. So I feel like I related to him in that aspect of like.
Wow. Like, who would have Would I've been? Would I've been like me now? Or could I've been a completely different person if, like, I never had that negativity to begin with? So I I love that scene. I know I keep talking about how I wish I knew earlier, but I feel like if I was on these islands, I wouldn't have hated myself for so long. Like internally, like, not even realizing that I hated myself.
But like, that's basically what I was doing as I'm like I there's no way I like girls like. And I was just like trying so hard to convince myself that I was straight and I'm just like I can't do it. And I hated it so much. And then as soon as I let myself be me, I found my people and it's it's beautiful and powerful and I wish we could have the acceptance that there is on these islands. So I think it would help a lot of people. Totally, yeah.
Be it's just a not having that trauma growing up because like you're the most impressionable when you're developing as a as a child into. Teenager into adulthood. So that's the time period where we're encountering all of this negativity. And it's it really is trauma. Deep seated for a lot of people, different for everyone. But I definitely would have been like the same as Caitlin, like I just would have been able to be myself so much.
Quicker in life and avoided a lot of difficulty with within myself and externally. Like my, my dad asked me if I was gay in a really funny way when I was 13. And I I didn't know at the time. So I was just like, no, I just, you know, so I just was like, no. I don't think I even really knew what gay was at the time. So because it's just, you didn't see it.
And that's The thing is, if we were on Rainbow Island, we would have seen it. We would have known, had so much more freedom just to explore who we are, be that straight, queer, whatever. So I think it could help straight people as much as it could help gay people in a lot of ways. And it's not bad to know what else is out. There, yeah. It's not like, why are we limiting ourselves? I don't get it. And they, you know, I mentioned like, you know, a lot of stuff in the book about sense.
People are having kids because there's many ways to have kids and some, you know, queer people are buying Pan and all the other stuff and. There are straight people there too, because they have kids that are straight and they know they're comfortable with themselves and accepting and you know, they understand what all their options are and they can be, you know, they're not shoved into it. And they're not shoved into like super limiting gender roles
either. So they can just be whoever they are in their natural personality with having, without having to like conform to what people have taught them about what, you know, men and women are. And I like that, you know, made sure to like it's like straight people too, because their babies are born there and you know, that's what happens. I think whoever with that original tumble post came up with that whole concept had half a brain cell because it's pretty
obvious that you can just. There are other ways to make babies, guys. Just saying. Well, and even like historically we have a lot of history of like people who were like out with each other choosing to get married and have kids, where as like kind of as a shield, but also like they wanted to have families. And they made those choices to like, like gay men was marrying lesbian women. And they made those choices that they wanted to have kids and and be married for that protection
of, like, society. But they were out to each other and had, you know, romantic lives outside of that marriage. And I was like, OK, there's so many options with rainbow eyes. And also we have, you know, Aeronautica, Steampunk Island with technology. Christian Republic has so like. Artificial insemination like, you know, simple level and buy and pay on people exist. And you know, eventually as time goes on, there's more straight people.
There's, you know, and trans people like, can choose to have kids. Like there's so many options of like obviously lots of babies are going to be born. And that's like, like when Jason first comes to New Hope, he's like, wait a minute, there's kids here way younger then because there's like a limit, You know, even the Christian Republic has a limit on what they're going to.
What age they're going to send people because they of course in their mind they believe, like queer young kids don't exist. It's a sexual thing. So now now you're of an age that you're making decisions about, you know, sexual attraction and things like that. So that's that's kind of their cut out. Now you're of an age that you're making decisions about, you know, sexual attraction and things like that. So that's that's kind of their cut off of like. That what they believe.
You know, queer people exist as. Yeah, and kind of in that line before Jason arrives. His understanding of queerness is limited by the narrow minded Christian society that he was raised in, but his concept of sexuality just expands dramatically as he integrates into a true queer culture. So do you feel like exploring Rainbow Islands is meant to be a metaphor for discovering your own sexuality and identity?
For for like everybody too, yes. And and I was meant to be What happens when you're really fully integrated into that queer committee and you can see all of the different options and talk to people who are both different and similar to you and and. Really, that freedom, buddy. They just want to like hold hands and kiss and be romantic and like, you know, that kind of stuff where they're like, that's not into the sex thing.
And that's an option that a lot of people, you know, buddy, they just want to like hold hands and kiss and be romantic and like, you know, that kind of stuff where they're like, that's not into the sex thing. And that's an option that a lot of people you know that haven't been exposed to that community, they don't know that that's an option or or. Like they, you know, oh, I'm just I wanted to like get all that stuff and and I wanted to show too.
Jason's struggling a little bit with some of those concepts. There's so much new information being I wanted to like get all that stuff and and I wanted to show too. Jason's struggling a little bit with some of those concepts. There's so much new information being good conservative negative view of queerness. Even though he, you know, he knows he's queer. He's. Comfortable with that to a certain degree.
Learning all these different things about the various like sexualities and genders and things like that. He struggles a little bit with getting those concepts a certain degree, learning all these different things about the various like sexualities and genders and things like that. He struggles a little bit with getting those concepts and kind of mentally corrects himself too, because it's like it's OK when. You're new to your identity and
you're new to the community. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to have jizzes and kind of mentally corrects themselves too, because it's like, it's OK When you're new to your identity and you're new to the community. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to have bad thoughts about people because that's what you've been taught.
And it's OK to have those feelings and those thoughts, But you got to, like, teach yourself to get out of it and really, really accept other people no matter what their identity is. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I think that another big part of Jason's journey that kind of influences everything you're just talking about is the deconstruction that he goes
through. And I found that to be very timely because a lot of people are publicly posting on social media their journey of deconstructing like a lot of ex evangelicals, at least in America, and as so it seems to me like, as Jason spends more time with.
The Rainbow Folk, he unlearns that internalized like misogyny, homophobia, the conformity, like all that stuff he was that he was like indoctrinated into essentially in the Christian Republic. And personally, I found this to be a really realistic and relatable aspect of Jason's journey. So I'm curious if that came from personal experience or that was just something you were integrating? Into the story based on like the. Tumblr post.
But like curiously. I wasn't raised like super Christian or super restricted, but I know a lot of people like homophobic and transphobic. But like personally, I wasn't raised like super Christian or super restricted. But I know a lot of people who have a lot of different experiences and I basically like just projected. Like, what if I had been raised in this, you know? Evangelical Christianity culture, what would I have felt
like? What would I've been thinking and that kind of like, you know this pushed stuff to a higher level of things that I did experience. So and then I again, I've like, you know read comments from people and I've talked to people who were raised in much more restricted. Cultures of homophobia and transphobia and and negativity and and what what they were
feeling like too. So I was trying to kind of integrate those two pieces of like my true experience and then like what would it have been like to be raised in a much, much worse conditions. I mean, obviously like it, it hits you anyway because our society is like that. You're getting those messages. Even if you're not conscious about that, you're getting those messages. I'm just like, let's like pump this up to a higher level. Yeah, absolutely. And so to me, it felt really
relatable. And I'm just curious if Caitlin and Bree, you you found that to be relatable growing up in America also? Yeah, it was for all the reasons I've kind of already stated and also through Jason learning about the amount of different. Ways that people can identify and the different culture within those that are out there.
That was really relatable for me because there was a time period in my life where if you had said the words non binary I would have had no fucking clue what you were talking about. And now and then learning about it like and kind of like Jason and my mind, it was like. Oh, that makes sense. And so you're all of those prior ideas that you had about things kind of get demystified and kind of like, OK, it makes sense that
that I can let go of that now. So I mean, and that that was a big thing for me, is finding out that I didn't have to think of myself as within a binary. So like, just going, I don't have to be classified. It's basically it like I have freedom and that gave me a lot of relief and joy in my life that I didn't have to worry about doing that to myself internally. So I really, really freaking love Jason. Like, this is literally one of the best. This is like my.
This book really got me. I'll just put it that way. Bree can't even figure out her words. I can't. She loves it. It's I read a lot of books in a year, and this is in my top two books that I've read this year. I don't remember, like, homophobic stuff happening growing up. I think I just wasn't aware of it. I I was sheltered, but like, not like consciously sheltered. I went to a Catholic school until through 4th grade. Some of 5th grade I think. And I mean I also failed
religion incredibly every year. But that's a whole another story. I could not pay attention to it. I didn't care. So I didn't have to go and learn anything because apparently I learned Jackson. But anyway, you actually, yeah, it's just more of AI could sit there for an hour and do nothing. I have a lot of patience. So I guess, I don't know it it's just ingrained in you subconsciously, I guess that it's not OK somehow 'cause you don't see it.
So it's like it's man and woman and they're together. And yeah, so I'm I'm glad that I didn't have like, people in my life who were like completely homophobic and like, completely against it. And I come across people now and I'm just like, how, how can people be like that? But yeah, so I found it relatable in the fact that I understood because like, I knew of other people who were like very, very religious and morals. Like you had to do this.
And it's like not even just for sexuality, but like they basically define your entire life and you have to follow a made-up book. Yeah, Anything else you want to? Like I said, it's the worst science fiction book I've ever read. And the key is that what Rainbow Islands is really showing for me is that like knowledge is power. And that knowledge and the and the setting of Rainbow Island gave Jason agency to make a choice.
So not only did he not know there were choices before going there, because like like you said, Devin is just like gay. Or straight. That's it. But then when he gets there, he's like, oh, there's other options. So, like, things I didn't know about. So knowledge is power. And then he had the agency to make the choice because constantly it's reinforced to him. Like, hey, you can pick your name. Hey, if you tell us you're a boy, we believe you.
Like whatever you say, you identify with, if you want to identify, that's cool. We accept you as you are. You know, I think that's really the key. And that's where, like our reality in America clashes with what we would like it to be, which is Rainbow Islands. Because here there's rules. Enforced, whether you're aware of them or not, or like propaganda, that's enforced whether you're aware of it or not.
And so that shapes how you think because you don't know there are options if you're only taught it's this or that, this or that. But it's like it's not just this or that. And once you realize that it's, it's liberating, which is what I think Jason feels. But I also want to, just before we move on to the next question, just because I don't want anyone who like actually does is religious and has faith like to think that they're wrong for feeling like that.
Like it just because the three of us are not religious. Like, it's not. We're not saying, like you shouldn't believe in anything because just like in the book, Jason learns that there's still, I believe there's a church. And that people still believe in God. And they. Yeah. And. There was there's specifically there's a church in New Hope that he like walks past and he's really surprised to see it and they're like Oh yeah, no, some
people still believe. And I just kind of throwing that out as like there are accepting churches that are very like queer friendly. And I just was like, obviously there are going to be some people who make those like deconstruct from within and you know, take the, the homophobia and the transfer be like out of their Christian belief and. You know, still still have faith in God and Jesus and believe in
like that kind of stuff. But but taking out all that negative stuff so that they can believe. Like, you know, God loves me as I am. And there's plenty of, like, you know, in real world. Like there's plenty of gay and and trans and queer Christians that truly believe in our, you know, faithful and all that other stuff. But at least wanted to put old people who embrace both, and that's fine.
But I didn't want to, like, dwell on it too much because I was kind of not, you know, I just wanted to make sure it was at least acknowledged in there. That's like, it's fine if you're still Christian, as long as you're not, like, feeding into that hate of yourself and your community in there. That's like it's fine if you're still Christian, as long as you're not, like, feeding into that hate of yourself and your
community. Yeah, that's really important because I think sometimes we forget to mention that, you know, even though the three of us aren't, don't identify with being Christian or aren't religious in any way, that there's nothing wrong with that. Like it's like any any other identity, you be who you feel like it's you. If that's what you believe, that's what you believe. And we're going to love you regardless of anything but moving away from the religious talk because we've talked about
it quite a bit. So throughout the book, Jason's dead name is never used once. Was that an intentional choice? Yes, so really early concepting this, I was thinking about like how am I going to write this without like. Misgendering him at the beginning of the book because he doesn't really know he's trans and doesn't know that's an option. And then I was like, wait a wait a minute, what if I did this like first person instead?
And I was like, oh, actually the whole thing would work better in first person because it's like his personal emotions, his personal journey. And it's a very popular option for YA because it really gets you into that person's POV. And then I'm like, Oh my God, then I never have to make up a dead name for him. I don't know what it is because it's not important. I. Love that. I love that. That was one of the first things I noticed reading it and I was
like, genius writing. Like even later on when it's when they get Rebecca out of the hole, it's it's not. I just love it. I love it, all right. In chapter 4, Jason mentioned something called a boundary name, and for me this was a concept I was very unfamiliar with before reading the book. So I was wondering if Devin you could explain what a what a boundary name means in the
context of like the story. I I don't think, I don't know if that's an actual term, but it was just something that I was trying to like, convey as an idea of, like when you're like exploring that trans identity, you're trying to pick a name that's like safe. So you're like you're not bold enough yet to to take a fully, firmly gendered name. But you don't want to have, like, your current gender either. So you're trying to pick a name that's like unisex or sounds unisex.
You know, you're going to go with like, maybe Chris, because people might interpret it as either Christopher or Christina. You might pick like Danny because that could be Danielle or Daniel. You know, you're like, you want to pick that in between kind of safe option that you're like not going to scare people too much or make them feel weird.
And I was like, OK, that definitely is something a lot trans people experience because you're a little bit uncertain yet about, like, really going for it and expressing your identity fully. And, you know, just to send, like, I'm putting it out there because you're a little bit uncertain yet about, like really going for it and expressing your
identity fully. And, you know, just to send, like, I'm putting it out there now that I, you know, I'm picking my gender and I don't care what you think about it. Yeah. Thank you. I think I figured that's what he was going for.
But I like, I really love that explanation because like at the point like Jason was really trying to figure out like a who he is and like what do I call myself which is a a very interesting thing to have to figure out like not only like who what do I identify with but like who am I like what was his power and words and names and things like that. So I I like that kind of concept like as Jason's figuring it out like the name shifts just like little by little until like.
He's like Jason. Jason, that's the that's the one. That's me. All right. So it wouldn't be a top tier queer book if there wasn't a romance, right? So as Jason comes to Rainbow Island, he he he meets Sky, the queer Buccaneer, which we love. We stand our bisexual pirate queen. We love her. And that relationship, first of all, is so just adorable.
It's adorable. One aspect of their relationship that I really love is how Jason as it progresses, Jason is very self-conscious when he's on their first date and how different the relationship with Sky is. Then like Rebecca that's like hit like what he's kind of contrasting them with and we as the reader. So with Sky, Jason's like a very openly dating her as a man and is and you know, as his true self.
But at that point where they're like having their first date or they're starting to date, he's at the point where he's like, still doesn't feel like his body matches with who he is. I think at one point he's like damn boobs, which I thought was hilarious. And so because of like the body dysmorphia a little bit, he kind of doesn't feel like quote like a real man. So personally, having never been on this particular journey, I'm curious like what is the process
for like reconciling like? Physical and emotional gender expression, because that seems to be what Jason was kind of like going through at that point. Yes. And a lot of it is that, you know, is a very personal journey for every different queer person. And some trans people can't ever really feel comfortable in their bodies until they have like a full physical surgery, and others don't want any surgery at all. And there's like a whole range in between. And I wanted to at least
express. Some of that struggle, because I struggle with that too, along for a long time about, you know, I can never really like a real boy because I have a girl body. And then I wanted to kind of express that kind of the twofold of like speaking directly to the trans community and, you know, especially even like younger people who don't understand their identity yet or aren't out, and also just sharing it for sister other people to understand what that feels like.
And having, you know, a young character like Jason figuring out his identity, it was a really great character choice to have somebody being able to share that for both sides of that kind of leadership. And I one of the other really specific things I wanted to put in there was having an older trans man be his mentor, that he can talk to somebody who's completely comfortable in his identity, comfortable in his body. He's got, you know, he's got a
woman in every port or whatever. Like, he's just like this complete, like total badass guy that's like everybody loves him. And I wanted Jason to have that experience of seeing, like his future, basically a future possibility for himself that I could, I could be accepted in the community, I can be respected. I can have, you know, romantic relationships. People aren't going to misgender me and judge me. I can just be myself. I can be happy and comfortable with my body.
And I have these like, conversations that he has pretty, you know, real guttural, like conversations about physical body parts that he has with Captain Agasi, his his
mentor. And Jason has part of, like that journey of understanding, like he starts to become a little bit more comfortable in himself and understand like no matter, no matter what the shape of my body is, that doesn't determine who I am. And I can start to understand, even if I'm not 100% comfortable with my physical self, I'm not going to be judged by what I look like. I'm going to be accepted for who I am and who I tell people I am.
So his, his, some of his dysphoria starts the lesson as he finds himself in this community of acceptance. And like I I very much changed my own view of myself and my body over time. And I'm way more comfortable than I've ever been before. And it's just, you know, part of it is just accepting myself and being living in a world where, you know, all the people that I interact with, like, see me as a man and treat me as a man. And that changes so much about
any kind of negativity. I felt about like how I might look and how you know things like that. So I wanted to put some of that in there and like so and I'm like, you know, Captain Agasi is sort of also kind of like a fantasy future self for me, whereas in the same way that Jason is like a fantasy past self for me. I love that so much. Yeah.
I just it felt really real and it was really I I I like the first person choice, like you said, to really like get really understand through Jason's own thoughts like. How that whole process kind of goes and what he feels and like, the action reaction, like when he meets a gusty and things like that. So yeah, thank you for writing that. I love that part in the book.
It's really well done. So I have a little small passage from the book that I noted immediately after I read it because it struck me and I just wanted to get everyone's reaction to it so I will read it out loud. That's one of the best things about being a Rainbow person. We can make our own families with only people that love and understand us. And family. Yeah, but just the concept that family isn't blood.
Blood. I mean figuring out who you are and then once you accept yourself, if you didn't from the beginning, I mean I found, I guess, who I would call my family after coming out. And like, I mean, no one's in the same state as me, but online it helps. I think it's true. Especially in the queer community like you have. You find your family because blood isn't always going to be there for you.
But I thought it was really interesting an interesting choice to have a a actual blood relative of Jason also in the island like Jason's cousins there. And so I thought that was interesting too. Like it seems like they get closer because like the curtains gone. Like they're just like being themselves and like it, it bonds them closer together. So it also shows that like families can be healthier if we stop trying to force people into boxes and just let them be and
just. Love people for who they are, like blood relation or not. So I like that choice to have like an actual blood relative there too. And it's also. Of of relationships and family. And it's also just like, you know, what are like the chances of another person in your family of origin being queer is incredibly high. So you know, that's just like remember to be open to that possibility and whether they're
out or not. You never know who's going to, you know, turn out whatever you know, cousin, aunt, uncle, whatever. Like, you never know. Somebody in your family also might be queer. And you got to be open to the possibility that maybe someday they'll reach out to you and and you'll be able to develop, like a positive relationship with them. A lot of the family stuff was really, really hard to write because, again, I wrote this in November 2016.
After like finding out that some of my family members had voted for, you know, who, and I went no contact with them immediately. So I have a very awkward, strained relationship with my family because parts of them I don't talk to at all. And other parts of them it's like this kind of like these these subjects that we just don't touch. And it it feels like I kind of like, divorced my family in 2016 and that was all the, you know, all of the like. Gut reaction.
Stuff that Jason has to his family is like really honest and in the moment. So some of that stuff when I I was rereading it this week because it's been a while and I was like, oh, I yeah, that was straight from the heart. Some of that stuff, that feeling of like love and hate twined together and this anger about why, Why would you do this to me? Why would you view people like me like this when you had to know, You know, like you got to
know. And why you supporting this negativity and this hate when you know you've got to have a gut feeling that I'm one of them. So why is it like this? And and then you know, of course all the acceptance of the Rainbow Island and building your own family and how quickly he starts to develop these really deep relationship with people he literally just met, you know like weeks. And he's just, he feels closer to them than he's ever felt his own blood relatives.
And that's a very career experience that a lot of people have. Like I, you know, I have people in my life now that I've had for years and they they feel like family. They're people that I rely on. They're people that like have my back. And I never have to ever, ever question my acceptance with them because they're, you know they've been from day one accepting because they're most of the time they're all so queer. And even those who aren't, you know, I, I, you know, I am who I am up front.
And they got to know right, right away. And if people aren't accepting like, you just kind of let them go. I think the realization that you're able to like it's OK to let blood relatives go is very powerful in itself because so many people are like, oh, that's your parent. That's your brother, cousin or aunt or uncle. And like, you have to, like, be OK with them, forgive. Them like, no, If they're really not good for you, just let them go.
I'm sorry. Like this is something like, I had a therapist tell another person it was like root therapy that they should try talking to them. And I'm like, no, they don't have to if they don't want to. They're terrible for them. They're constantly beating you down. You don't need people like that. So just seeing Jason find his family and literally but it it's just you see how much happier he is by the end and it's really nice to see. Yes, Happy queers.
It was very That was the best part, though. Yeah, the best. Part is the happy queers. All the way. So happy, can we please have ATV show? That's. Called that Happy Queers with just like a bunch of queer people living in one house. Be like happy feet, except with queers. A really weird concept. You've you've been in here, you know it's crazy. So, Devin, I was on your website because I love to do my research for these interview type things, and I noticed that you have a
playlist for the book. Can you talk a little bit about how you chose the music for you for it? Not you? No worries. I I do playlists for a lot of my books and it's kind of like a combination of like vibes and I get the answers and then things that like remind me of like the plot stuff and I just like to and it all, I'm like really picky. So it has to be something that I know I can listen to like many,
many times. So there's sometimes like this song is super fitting, but I'm kind of tired of that. That's where, like, you know, I listen to it once and I'm like, yeah, that's cool, but. Not not making the playlist. So it's got to be something. I'm like, I know I'm going to listen to this probably like 50 times while I'm writing this book. It's got to be something that I
really, really like. So that's I like the Rainbow Island. And some of them, I really randomly stumbled on some of those songs and I was like, oh, that one, that one's perfect. Like some stuff I knew, like, oh, you know, some songs I like. I'm like, yeah, that's going to go on the playlist. And other stuff I just randomly stumbled on and they were perfect fit for, you know the
feeling at the time. I like Run is I call that Sky song, 'cause that really reminds me of that feeling of Sky is like the freedom of her and the the playfulness of that kind of emotion. And I I was like that's that's her song for sure. That's going on the playlist. That's so bad. I love that. That's awesome. What do you think the benefits are of having a playlist for the book? It's. It gives me the.
Mindset of the book itself and it it kind of ties in like that emotional feeling and it helps to kind of give me like a like a parameters around the work itself. It's like, OK, so I try to make my playlist roughly around 45 minutes or something because that's about as long as I can go at one time really good and focused and then. I needed to like take a break and walk away, like even for like physical health to get out of the chair. So I try to put a roughly that many songs on there.
And then I will a lot of times go into a writing session and just hit play on that playlist and go and and kind of get into that emotional mindset of of what the book is or the characters are. And it helps to kind of give me the vibe. And it also is giving me like almost like a time or two. And I can kind of feel like as the songs change, like I kind of know where I am and like the time. And it's just kind of nice to have all of that, you know, musical accompaniment as you're
writing too. Sometimes it's hard in silence. It's a little bit, sometimes a little difficult, to get into that mindset. Well, it's great. The Aura also does playlist for. Things, yeah, I do too. And it's you do too. I just never thought of that. I just. I just listen to music to. I have to have music when I write over. And over. I can't have music when I write, but I like, will listen to me like, I will do like you Devin. Like I'll have like, character playlists.
Or like, yeah. Was it remind me of, like, the specific plot that I'm trying to plot out? And I'll listen to it like throughout the day when I'm not writing because that's what my mind wanders. And then I'll be like, Oh yeah, And I'll like, solve problems while, like, my brain's not thinking about it. But when I'm writing, I need like silence or instrumental music, 'cause I get distracted by lyrics. Yeah, I have to do instrumental. The ADHD makes me need two
things going at one time. So yeah, like a lot of times it's like the playlist is is songs that I'm familiar enough with that it it it like the lyrics don't distract me, 'cause it's like just something I'm like. Used to. But there are times. Background almost, Yeah, yeah, and there. But there are times where lyrics can be kind of distracting to me. And I do have like a like a huge playlist of like, Interment instrumental stuff that I sometimes pop on just for general writing sessions.
Or like if I'm feeling kind of like Squirrely that day and like my brain won't settle down to like a lyrics type thing and I get distracted sometimes I just put on like instrumental music. So yeah, that's an option too for me, a lot of fun, like, OK, I just need to see, hear, hear something to keep me active. Sometimes I do it in silence because I get so, you know, I sit down to write and I get so into what I'm doing and I just actually keep going even though I'm not playing anything.
But it's kind of all mood based. It's vibes like you said. So I have the biggest question we'll ever ask you. OK, here it goes. Is there any chance we will get to read more about this world in the future? For example, here are some suggestions from our friend Pete, a sequel about liberating the cut inversion camps or a prequel about the first island inhabitants, or Captain Augusti Augusti. I like part of you would really like to go back and write stuff because it was such an amazing
quote. But part of me is like, I wrote the story I wrote, and that feels done because that was really what I was trying to express is like Jason's emotional journey and this, you know, plot of like, basically happiest thing of destruction. But you know, it. I felt like when I finished it, I was like, that feels like, done for me. That's the story I wanted to tell. And I know, like, it's, it's a really fun world. And I like a lot of people have been like, what? Where's the sequel?
Where's the sequel? I'm like, I I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to come up with an idea that's going to like compel me so much that I'll go back to that world. Like, I I love that world, but the story is the story and I feel like I I finished it. Feel like that's fair and it's. Fair. Story on its own. Pete had two more questions for you. One just a question about like. Earlier drafts of the book, if there's anything you tell us about them.
Like, were they vastly different from like the final product or anything you changed or like added or just any tidbit? I wrote during Nanowrimo and it was like chaos. Like it was, I really think like this book and a lot of ways like saved me because it was so I mean I, you know early November we didn't really know what was going to happen. And and by the time of the election I I was looking at this book going, I like, I have to finish this.
I have to keep going. It's so important to me and it's like I would love to put this book out into the world, especially the way things have gone. And also just, you know, thinking like, I don't know if I've been writing anything else, if I'd been able, if I would have been able to keep going because it was so hard. And like, I would struggle, you know, for weeks, I'd sit down and it's like, I don't know how I can do this, but I kind of felt like I needed to finish it for myself.
And and it just was like, I I made pretty much everything up as I went. It's like chaos. I sat down and I was like, what can I throw at them now? They're they're they're in the ocean Krakens what's with Krakens in and it was just entertaining myself day by day. So just keep going and like there there was some incredibly clunky run on sentences and like awful paragraphs and there were
entire chunks like pages long. There were days that were so hard that pages long with me just like talking to myself about what I can do next in the book. So this is like a mess and chaos. And by the and then I finished that first draft, I had one Nanowrimo, which I'm kind of addicted to. Nanowrimo. I win every year.
I finished it and I put it aside for a while and I picked it up again and I read it and like obviously there's like huge chunks that are immediately going to have to go because they're not actually book. But as I was reading it, I was like, this is surprisingly coherent as far as like the overall plot, even though I totally was making things up as I went along, I was like, how did this, how did my brain come up with this in this highly stressful situation?
I don't know. I surprised myself. I'm just reading the book. It was past week and I was like, who knows? This is good, but I I cleaned up the immediate work first. Like oh. My God, I couldn't see immediate, really terrible stuff 1st. And then I sat down and like was like, OK, what what, what really needs to like be like finessed and fixed and whatever and like honest, like I've admittedly like there a huge amount of that book. I mean obviously like cleans the sentences and and stuff like
that. But a lot of that was just came out purely as it is in the book, especially like a lot of the emotional stuff, just it's the way it was in the first draft. And I actually didn't have to. I was. I did way less work than I thought I would have to do while I was in the middle of that first draft.
I thought it was going to be like this is going to be a nightmare to fix and that really was surprisingly not that hard and and the subsequent drafts were much much easier because I had already the base to go on. But then I knew where I was going so that everything that felt like really like random and
extraneous. I would either like build on that to make it more like, OK, this actually fits more in the book or I'm like alright, that's got to go because that just didn't go anywhere in the first draft. But I'm surprised that it actually is semi coherent by the end of that month because that was really hard. Honestly, that is so amazing and I love that.
It was like a comfort for you to kind of like write it at that point in time in your life because it's a comfort to read it. So, like, I love that. That's amazing. Like, truly, like, well done. Thank you. Last question from Pete. This may be a long shot too, but Pete wants to know if there will ever be official merch for Rainbow Islands. I'm sorry, what? Pete wants to know if there will ever be official, like, merchandise. Oh, a merchandise. For the book, I I've never
thought of that. I don't know. I I can always like. I could always like, make a T-shirt or something I've been like. Have you ever seen those? Like, people will get sketches done of their D&D characters? Yeah, I think there should be like a whole sketch of all of the characters, and then they can just be on a freaking T-shirt. Yes, with the rainbow. Yeah, especially the Crew. Like the the Pirates. Man, I need that.
The Buccaneer shirt. And in a. Ship with the Kraken like trying to crack. I'll be yeah, baby, I yeah, I haven't really thought about that because, like, and it occurs to me, but like, that's the the great thing about being indie is like, it's my book. I can do whatever I want with it. I don't have to ask, you know, a publisher for permission. It's all mine. Yep, you need merch ideas. We got them. We have way too many ideas from Rush. We do well. That's all the questions we have.
Devin, thank you so much for talking with us today. We really appreciate it and loved getting to know you better and the book before we sign off, do you have any final words for the listeners at home? Just so, I think the world has become even more difficult for queer people in the last few
years. And my hope is that something like Rainbow Islands and other queer media out there can help give us the strength to keep fighting, to show younger people and people who aren't out to themselves yet that there's hope and love and community and family out there for you. Even in our times that we live in, like, share that love, share that community. We're going to need that light in all of this darkness. And, you know, remind yourself that there are things fight worth fighting for.
There's family worth fighting for. Yourself is worth fighting for. Don't put yourself in a box. Don't don't hide yourself for you know to because of the judgement of other people. Let yourself go to those islands and be free. Be free with yourself. Be free with each other. Accept each other and love each other and and you know we can get through this together and and that's you know worth fighting for. Amazing. I'm going to. Go cry. Yeah, making me cry 2 times.
That's so beautiful. You're really good at pulling on people's emotions. I guess you should be a writer or something, I don't know. To everyone at home listening, make sure to check out Rainbow Islands to support Devon and follow Devon on social media. Until next time, get it up all. Lesbian Jesus. I don't know. Like giving up all over the place. Oh my gosh. Sorry. That was a terrible outro. Bye everyone. Bye. And with that, we've been big
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