Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters. And we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. We are back with another super fun interview. Today we are talking to Mark Julian, the talented graphic novelist who created Just in Case In the Closet Monster and Becoming Able. Welcome to the podcast, Mark. Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be here.
I I hope I can live up to the name of your podcast and have lots of energy. Oh, oh, we have all the confidence in the world in you. Yes. All right, so to kick things off for our listeners at home who may not know what inspired you to write your first graphic novel, which was, just in case, in the Closet Monster. Yeah, that's a great question. I lost my father to complications due to Alzheimer's disease and I never had the opportunity to tell my dad that I was gay.
And so my book is my creative way of being able to tell my dad all the things I never had the courage to say to him while he was alive. Yeah. That's such a beautiful way to, like, cope with such a big thing in your life, Like not being able to tell a family member in Alzheimer's, which is such a horrible and debilitating disease, to, like, have those two things kind of collide must have been really, really challenging for you.
I'm glad that you had, like, a creative way to process and like, kind of like, deal with that. And it really does show in the book, like you mentioned, I think in the intro you had like your dad in like a portrait in like 1 of the first or second frames of like Justin in his room. And yeah, it was, it was really beautiful. And I think that kind of like came through with Justin's story in particular. Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad.
Yeah, I really admire the like the vulnerability that you had putting your story out there and you start the book with it. And I was just curious why you decided to include that in this? Book I've been trying to be as truthful as I can when I wrote the book I I I I wanted to like I wanted to deal with the fact that I had lost my dad and never got a chance to tell him.
I, I, I was fortunate enough to tell my other family members and they've been great with me coming out, but I wanted to connect with the readers as as early as I possibly could, right? I wanted them to know who I was and, and, and, and that this story was a personal story and, and that there, that there was truth in this story. And, and, and truth has always been really important to me.
Although our relationship to truth changes as we grow older, But I, I, I, I think that that, that that's the reason that I, that I started the book the way that I did. That's wonderful. I always, I sometimes I say too much out there, but I just like if I anything I say help somebody or connects with somebody, then it's all worth it. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I was so alone when I came out of the closet. It took me a long time to to to come to that realization.
I think I always knew. I knew when I was a little kid, but I was afraid, so afraid. And I was bullied tremendously when I was in grade 7 and 8. And I carried that bullying with me for years. And I actually, I, Justin's story is my story and, and Justin became homophobic at, at a certain part in his life. And, and that's definitely something that I shared with him because I was so afraid. All I ever heard about gay people was they were awful. And, and it was horrible to be gay.
And so I, I, I tried everything that I possibly could not to be gay. And it wasn't until after college, university, that I was had the courage enough to to to be able to be true to myself. Yeah, that's unfortunately a lot of people can definitely relate to that. Yeah, yeah, It's not, it's not, it's not something that I'm proud of, right? But I think it's something that that that needed to be addressed. And, and again, I, I, I've been trying with the books to come
from a place of truth. And so we even have to be truthful about the things that we're not necessarily so proud of all. Right, just to pivot a little bit. So Speaking of things, in the novel, it was we're sticking with just in case. So the let's talk about the monsters. So the monsters quote, they function like queer guides for
the baby gaze in the closet. And I found the diversity of the pairings of the monster and like they're queer that they're helping coming out of the closet really interesting. So some of the pairs got along, while others are polar opposite. So I'm curious, how did you approach creating the monster queer pairings? Like what was your thought process for that? That's a good question, and I don't know if I have a really good answer for that.
I think I think the monsters, really, after I had written the first 12 pages of the book, the monsters started to tell me what they wanted to do and what the pairings were going to be. I think you're talking about the pairing between Marlin and Corey specifically. And I didn't want the monsters to be perfect. I wanted them to be flawed
individuals as well. And I, I don't think I'm giving anything away by telling you that the the monsters were actually human before they became closet monsters. And the reason that they are closet monsters is they didn't live their life in truth. And so they were destined to become closet monsters and help those that don't have the courage to come over to the closet or or need a little push to come out of the closet. I Justin's closet monster, who
is a minotaur. I, I think one of the reasons that he was a Minotaur is because I wanted something that wasn't in pop culture. I wanted, I didn't want Dracula. I didn't want the Frankenstein monster. I wanted something that was original and original to the piece And, and that, and that's where his creation came from. I think my friends would probably tell you that I'm a cross between Justin and the closet Monster.
I I it took me a long time to come out as I said, but when I did I was out and ready to party. I Justin's Closet Monster tends to be a little inappropriate and if you talk to any of my friends you will you will find out that my my sense of humour skews to be on the inappropriate side. I love it. OK, so you also mentioned in the introduction section that you are deliberate with your colour choices when creating a scene. Is your process rooted in any
kind of colour theory? Again, a good question. I don't know if it's. It probably is I I think it was instinctual. I, I think I, I also is very, been very cognizant of the environments that the, the, the characters inhabit. So I also not only took into consideration the colours, but also the patterns that, that, that appear on Justin's wall, on the, on the priest's wall. All of those patterns were very important to me.
If, if you look at Justin's room, it has vertical stripes, which was supposed to represent a, a, a jail cell, right? Because that's how he felt being locked in the closet. So I, I, I just, I, I just wanted every character to have a color story. And I, I don't know if I have a lot of reason why I decided that, but I, I, I just wanted to it to be distinct for the viewer When, when they, when, when they
looked at the, at the book. I think, I think one of the things that maybe we should talk about is that I actually haven't told you the premise of the book. And would it be OK for me to tell you the premise of the first book? Oh, please do, of course. Yeah, so, so the premise of the book is just in case the, the main character in my story wakes up in the middle of the night to
a rustling in his closet. He gets up to investigate and he realized that there's that there's a monster in his closet. And he comes to find out that the monster's sole purpose is to help him come out of the closet. Now, throughout the book, you actually realize that there's a Guild of monsters, and that Guild of monsters is tasked to come to every LGBTQ person when they need help to come out of the closet. It's beautiful. Oh, thank you.
Back to the monsters in in the introduction, you also mentioned that you had a love of like classic monsters. You mentioned like Dracula earlier. So how did you decide? I guess you kind of touched on this a little bit, but how did you decide which of the classics to incorporate? Because you have quite a few in like the array of monsters. And how did you kind of like, adapt the classic to fit the novel?
Yeah, well, I've loved Greek and Roman mythology and the universal monster movies back in the 30s. I think that was the 30s. And I wanted to represent every classical monster because I I I had a connection to all those monsters. I think one of one of my grounding stories and one of the things that first got me excited about monsters is is my brother. When when I was growing up, I actually slept in the living room on what we called the magic
bed, which was a pull out couch. And because there were too many kids for the house. And my brother came home one night and it was really late and he snuck into the living room, which was where I was sleeping and turned on a movie and the, and so I think I was seven or eight years old. And he turned on Frankenstein. And I watched from underneath the covers the, the, the, the 1937 Frankenstein. I think it's 37. I could be wrong. I'm probably completely wrong. That's my mother's when my
mother was born. So it's probably wrong. But my love of monsters started then because I was actually so afraid. And when my brother went up to go to bed, I fell asleep reluctantly, fearfully, and in the middle of the night I heard something, looked up, and there was the Frankenstein monster actually in the the doorway to my kitchen. And I realized that there was no way that I could actually get to my mother, right? Because it's instinctually that's what I wanted to do.
So I hid under the covers and went and finally went back to sleep, I guess. And the Frankenstein monster never got me. But since then, I've always had a love of monsters. And I, I, I think it started then. And we'll talk about this later when we talk about becoming Abel, because I think Abel, the main character in that story is, is my version of the Frankenstein monster, right? Because that monster for some reason resonated with me more than any other character.
And I, I, I think it was because I empathized with him. I, I understood and later when I became, when not when I became gay because I was always gay, but later when I came to except that I was gay, I realized that monsters have a connection to us because like, like the werewolf, we, we are sometimes afraid of that other part of ourselves, right?
And like the Frankenstein monster, we're afraid of how the villages are the villagers or our family are going to react to us and are, are, are they going to persecute us? So I, I think that's why the book has monsters in it. And I don't know if I answered your question because it became really rambling. So how did you so how did you decide which of the classical monsters to like incorporate into the book and like, did you a modernize them in any way to
like fit the story? OK, I think I tried to hit on as many classical monsters as I could. There's a Cyclops in there who who I guess is modernized because he doesn't look like the the Cyclops from Greek and Roman mythology. He's actually my, based on my husband Stacy. So he, he has Stacy's wardrobe actually. And yeah, I, I, I love Dracula, but I wanted to put a little bit of a spin on Dracula because he wasn't he, I didn't want him to be the focus because he's such a
huge character, right? And so in my book, he actually becomes Comic Relief. And he has a war with another character in my book whose name is Helmet, who is a giant squid. And it's kind of my homage. I don't know if you guys remember if you're too young, but spy versus spy. Yeah, Mad Magazine, spy versus spy. So. So it's kind of my homage to that. So yeah. I'll have to bring that up to my dad. He like, religiously reads those magazines, like still to this
day. And like, I always loved the spy versus spy. Well, and they were brilliant. They had no words and they could go everywhere. Exactly. Yeah, that's so funny. Which is what those segments in my book are between Stroker and Helmet. Which are the characters names? I I do love those too. That was probably one of my favorite moments in the book, especially when like I don't want to spoil it, but there there are moments in there that
I just I love when anyway. So which monster that you created do you connect to the most? Ha, well, there are two I I definitely connect to Justin's closet monster because like I said, he's very inappropriate and pushes Justin in ways that are outrageous and I definitely have that side to me. But as I said, glance the cyclops. He is based on my husband Stacy, and the relationship between him and another character, Saul, which is a werewolf is is really based on our story.
And there is a love scene where they're underneath a cherry blossom tree, which is taken from Stacy and my life because Stacy proposed to me underneath the cherry. Sorry, proposed to me underneath the cherry blossom trees in New York City. So yeah, there's lots of little Easter eggs that my friends would get and, and not everybody would get. So it's nice for me to be able to talk about that with you guys. And now your your, your viewers and your audience.
So we'll be able to pick up some of those, some of those Easter eggs. Any other Easter eggs you want to talk? About. Oh my God. Well, in the new book there are locations that come out in the book on photographs on the wall. Like I said, it was so important for me to design environments that fit the characters. So each of the pieces on the wall, if you go through the book again, each of the pieces on the wall are actually pieces that I created in different times in my
career. So there are pieces that I did when I was a student and I tried to pair each of the art pieces to the characters because I have done so many different styles. I'm, I'm 54 years old. So I've, I've, I've, I've recycled through a lot of, a lot of different styles over the years. And it was, it was kind of nice for me to revisit that when I, when I produced the book. It it's kind of a portfolio of of my entire art career in in one piece of art. That's really cool.
I love that so much. OK, Speaking of the new book, so let's transition to Becoming Able. So in the introduction to Becoming Able, you mention your time spent as an artist in resident at Camp Firefly. What is Camp Firefly and how did this experience give you a new perspective on queerness? Yeah, so Camp Firefly is at a camp for LGBTQ youth. I had the opportunity to be the
artist in residence. They asked me to come and speak, give the keynote speech about my book and to introduce my book to them and to talk about my experiences writing the book. When I got there and met the campers, I was surprised to see that there were way more trans and non binary campers than I anticipated seeing. And when I was prepping for this, I was saying to myself, I was trying to pump myself up and saying that my life experience is going to be so meaningful for
these kids. And during the keynote speech, I kept thinking to myself, I have been saying that my book is that the monsters in my book go to every LGBTQ person when they need the help to come out of the closet. And I realized that that moment I had left trans people out. And during my conversations with those campers, I realized that it it was something that I wasn't comfortable omitting, and I needed to rectify that. And I needed to get educated enough to be able to tell a trans story.
And I, I, I, I love the fact that those that that experience really was the catalyst for me to create becoming able. OK, so the next question is kind of, I think you answered it halfway. So Becoming Able tells the story of Abigail, a character that was introduced in Just In Case and the closet monster. Who is Abigail? And then why was it important to tell the story? So we got the background on how this book came to be.
So so Abigail is one of the monsters in that was introduced in the first book and they are a rag doll. They're made-up of different patterns. As you could probably tell through my book.
I love patterns, right? And so this character was based on a rag doll and I, I, I wouldn't say that they're based on anybody I know in particular, but it, they're based on an amalgamation of conversations that I had and interactions that I had with two wonderful people that I met, a trans man and a non binary person who after I wrote the first draft of my
book, reached out to them. They, they were originally colleagues of my husband, Stacey, who worked at the 519, which is an LGBT Community Center. And so fearfully, I, I reached out to them and asked them if they would read the first version of my book. They did so and I was overwhelmed at their ability and their willingness to tell their story to me and to help me make becoming able as authentic as I can, as I could. And originally they were just colleagues of my husband, Stacy.
And, and now after this experience and, and, and their willingness to work with me, I really consider them my friends. I love that media just really brings us all together and encourages us to share. Our. Stories and ourselves with other people. Well, and, and I, I don't know, I, I guess they felt that my project was worthy of their time and their effort and their, their, their sharing their ability to share with me.
And I will be forever grateful for them for, for helping me to, to create able when, when I started it, it was a two year process for me to write the first version of the book. And then I went back after getting their feedback and worked another three years in order to, to get it to a state where I felt it was true. And I, I am so grateful for those people and so glad that they are in my life.
Yeah. And I love that you you mentioned that that you did consult the trans and non binary friends when you created becoming able. And it it it, it lends to what you said earlier about being as truthful as possible when telling this story. I guess. How did you incorporate their perspective into the novel when you were like doing that process? Like when you gave them the first draft, how did that go? Well, it's interesting because the first draft was almost wordless.
And I think that you you could probably see that if you take a look at the book carefully because there are wordless sections. So they were the ones that gave me the courage to be able to give Abigail Slash Abel a voice. They made me confident enough to be able to tell a story about their past, right? Because the the story that I wrote was really based in the present and was really based on that decision or that journey for Abigail to become able.
The first part what was about the present and the second part is all about the past and and and what actually affected Abigail and and her journey to to to become able. Yeah, I guess what's different for those that haven't read it when like comparing and contrasting just in case versus
becoming able. So like you're you're taking in the first story, you're taking like a human and there's their journey then life to kind of live their truth versus Abigail slash Abel is a story of a closet monster. So somebody in their quote, afterlife, learning how to live in their truth, which I thought was really interesting. When you read the books kind of back-to-back that you're not only getting a different like queer experience, you're getting a very different experience, period.
Because the protagonists are in very different phases of life and afterlife, which I thought was really interesting. Oh, cool. Thank you. Yeah. So you gave a perfect segue into my next question. I found it very interesting that this book was a little different from Just in Case and the fact that not every page had dialogue. How did you approach this to make sure all the emotions and thoughts were conveyed without the characters speaking? And I think you nailed it. Thank you so much.
I think that was a challenge for me. I think that telling a story without words is very difficult. This was a COVID baby for me. This that this book and it was intended to be a short sort of off trajectory of the of the main books. It was to get me back to, to allow me to dip my toe back into the just in case in the closet monster world. And I, I think I just wanted to try something different. I wanted to do something different from the first book. And I think that the difference
between the books is huge. I think I've grown as a storyteller. I think I've grown as an illustrator and I think I just wanted there to be space. I, I originally, when I wrote the first draft of the book, like I said, was, was, was wordless. I wanted I didn't feel like I was necessarily the person to tell the story because I'm not a trans person, so I wanted my characters to have the ability to tell the story themselves. I'm so cognizant that this is not my story to tell.
I think it's really important and that I have the opportunity to be a voice for people that may not have the voice themselves. And I just want to be a, a good advocate because I think what's happening with trans people now is something that happened with gay people 10 years ago, right? I think that they're, that they're where we were. And it's important for us to to to be advocates and to be
allies. Yeah, I think with the pages where there's no dialogue, it's powerful because you're giving Abel a voice. By not giving them dialogue, because you're not really telling them, even though it's your character. Yeah, you're letting their emotions come across instead of being like, telling them how they're feeling, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. No, you got it.
You got it. To piggyback off that, one of my favorite non dialogue scenes or just plain scenes in Becoming Able is when Abigail does the haircut and then looks into the mirror and sees Abel staring back. Like to me, haircuts in general are very powerful when they're
done in in media. There was like a huge one in the League of their own series that's like it's transformative to characters and I really love that moment because you get Abigail seeing Abel and who they could be for the very first time. That's my favorite scene. Do you have any favorite scenes or moments from Becoming Abel that is in the book? Yes, but I'm afraid to tell it because I don't actually want to spoil the the reveal for the
readers. I think, I think there's a lot of moments, especially through that transition. But I think it's really important. I will say this, I think it's really important to know that Abigail is not alone through that transition. Not that the other character, who is her partner, Bethany, is there. It's because she's surrounded by love, but in a different way and in a way that I think readers
need to know about. I think it's a the way that that character is surrounded by a love that unfortunately I can't name. But I think when people read the book they will understand what I mean. Is that OK? Oh yeah. Yeah, that's great. Because I think that unnamed character is the star of becoming able. I think that they and they only came about because of the conversations that I was able to have with the colleagues of or my friends because they gave me the courage to see because I had
to adjust it right. The first part of the book was all non verbal and then I had to figure out a way to get the verbal part in it. And this character is the is the way that I was was able to bring the verbal parts of becoming able into the story. You put so much thought into both of these books, and it's just really cool to see the world that you built while reading it. And I'm just curious in general, is there anything else coming
from this world in the future? Yes, yes, I am trying to build a universe. I am trying to create something like Star Wars, right? Where there are characters and there is a direct sequel to the Just in case in the Closet Monster first book, Hope, which will be entitled to faith and where the first book talked about me coming out and talked about the relationship with my dad.
The second book is actually again about my truth and about me personally, about my struggles with mental illness and how Justin's trajectory or Justin's life really parallels my own and his own struggles with how to come to terms. Because I think there were things that happened to me after I came out of the closet that I still had to deal with, right? I think all of your audience would probably agree with me that being in the closet changes you.
And there are things that you have to adjust in your life after you come out, right? So after you come out, not everything is just going to be rosy and happy, right? You've been lying to yourself for years. You have been lying to your family and your friends for years. Or at least I was, right?
So, yeah, yeah. And I think the new book deals with those emotions, deals with that journey because I, I think we talk a lot about what it's like to come out of the closet, but we don't necessarily talk about what it's like after that step, right. And the challenges that happen after that step. And yeah, I, I, I'm writing these books because I want to help people like me that, that need to hear those stories that, that are possibly not out there
for them to hear. Definitely, I know Theora brings us up on the podcast like the the coming out stories are so great and they are definitely needed, but so many of these coming out stories make it seem like that's the only hurdle you have and that everything is fine afterwards. But what are what is the journey after coming out and what is life like not as a 20 something or like the normal story ish. So I love and I also, OK, I'm sorry.
I just love this new one. I'm excited to read it because I also love that you're touching on mental health, something that I'm very passionate about as well that people need to just talk about it. And so I'm excited, if you can't tell. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. I have to warn you, I'm not very fast, right? So it might be another 5 or 6 years before we actually get to that point. But just so you know, I've written the first draft of the script. I'm pretty happy with it.
I think you're going to go back and work a little more on it and try and tighten it up a little bit. But this one is going to be a behemoth, right? I think it's going to be bigger than the The first book was definitely bigger than the second book. Funny that I mentioned this. The second book was supposed to be a short, right? I was supposed to tell that story in maybe 50 pages and, and, and it ended up being as as big as the first book clocking in, I think a little under 200
pages, right. So I think my husband, Stacy, I think the first book that I wrote, I, I, I kept looking at the page count in, it was a struggle to, to, to, to, to get to the stage where I think I was ready to, to, to, to publish it. And now I, I just seem to be rambling. I think I, I need my editor now because I, I seem to have a lot to say, which I think is a good thing, right? Because you'd rather have too much than not enough. No, definitely. You know, we want to hear
everything you have to say. I mean, there's people who write like so long books. So you put everything, put your heart and soul into it like I know you do in every book. And I thank you, no matter how long it takes, we will be there ready to read it. That's awesome. Thank you so much for that. So that was the end of our questions for today, but do you have any final words for the listeners at home? Anything you want to share with
everyone before we wrap up? Yeah, I don't think only artists or graphic novelists need to tell their stories. I think everybody needs an opportunity to tell their story. I think one of the things that was so exciting for me was when I did the first book, I, I, I did a Kickstarter campaign in order to fund it and in order for me to garner an audience, I began writing blogs to tell people about my personal
stories. You can actually go on my website, markjulianillustration.com to see my blogs and I learnt so much about myself by doing those blogs. I think that you cannot know yourself totally until you sit down and write about yourself. My therapist has been, my therapist has been telling me that for years. And I, I did this selfishly because I wanted people to get to know me in order to support
me in my projects. But I think the one thing that I learnt about myself is you don't know yourself until you're right about yourself. So give yourself a gift and, and even if you don't show it to anybody, it's, it's so important. And I think I'm a better person for that experience. Thank you again for taking the time to talk with us today. We really appreciate it and definitely love getting to know you and your your the whole world better. Where can our listeners connect
with you on the Internet? Yeah, so you can buy my book and like I said, check out my blogs at markjulianillustration.com. So if you guys do feel moved to check out my website, I am going to have a discount code on my website for your listeners and it'll be big energy, no big gay energy. So it'll be big gay energy and you guys will get 10% off anything in my store. Oh yeah, that's awesome. Yes, So everyone. Listening definitely do that.
Check out Mark's books and until next time, hydrate for lesbian Jesus. And get up all over the place. Bye. And with that, we've been Big Gay Energy. Thank you for listening. We'd really appreciate it if you downloaded this episode and left us a review. No matter how brief, your contribution will help us reach a wider audience. We would love to hear from you about everything and anything.
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The place.