Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Bree. I'm Theora. And I'm Caitlin. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters, and we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. What's on the Big gay agenda today? Today we're going to be talking about fandoms because we're in a time with the ongoing WGA SAG strikes. So in lieu of talking about a specific piece of media today, we're going to explore.
And so, to stay in line with, in solidarity with all of them, we are shifting our content a little bit until those wonderful creators we love so dearly our paid livable. Fandoms and what the fandom life is like. So fandoms are something that's becoming more accessible thanks to the Internet and something we've all participated in. And if you're new to fandoms, we're here to explain the good, the bad, and everything in between about fandoms and
participating in them. So before we jump into our experiences, I first wanted to start by defining what a fandom is. Because not everybody knows, like it's a term you hear. Talks around maybe, or if you've heard it for the first time recently. So let's talk about what it is and how it's different from just
being a typical fan. So a Phantom itself refers to a community of people who are passionate about something, whether it's a TV show or a film, which is like primarily our media, but it can be like a band and artist, a sport. It can kind of be anything, really. But the keyword here is community. It's a community of people. And so the thing that separates
a fan. From a fandom is that people in Phantoms usually spend a significant portion of time and energy involved with their interest as part of a social network, and fandoms usually operate as this kind of like subculture of their own, with their own unique name and internal hierarchy. So that's social networking is really what's different than just a fan of the media artist, whatever, so. How did fandom start?
I've always wanted to know the answer to this question and so I did some digging into it and I want to ask you guys and see if you had to guess what is the what was the first modern fandom like? What was it centered around in like what time period this was news to me when I looked it up? Modern how? Modern What are you talking about? Which century within the last couple 100 years? Modern so not like in ancient Greece like. OK, all right. I'm not modernized in 2000s. What?
Not modernized in like my lifetime. No, not in your lifetime. It's beyond your lifetime, Modern. OK, hold on. Does it involve classic films? No, surprisingly so. Fandom. This is just fandom in general. This is the first fandom when networking was. Knitting. Oh my God. Actually, you know, you're probably right. Like Patch, I don't think that was fandom activity. That was more big craft circle. I don't know that was. More so. Women's work, We call that a
fandom. I will say it was centered around a book, I'll tell you that. Oh, OK. This was surprising to me, but also not surprising. No, Shakespeare ended up more in like the academia realm. Not so much a fandom independent group, the here's for. Bible in. My brain it is no, I guess. Is it American literature? No, not American literature. Jane Austen. I don't know. That's a good guess. That's my fandom. OK, the Jane Austen.
Fandom is still thriving. In terms of the longest running fandom, I'd argue the first fandom is the thing. So the first modern fandom was centered around Sherlock Holmes. This makes sense. I know it made sense. OK, so if you're not familiar with Sherlock Holmes, the original body of work, it was a book series written by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I've actually read it.
It's phenomenal. The fandom part came about after Holmes was killed off in one of the books and there were public demonstrations of mourning over Sherlock Holmes and I saw images where people like created fan art of of Sherlock and would post them on telephone poles. So like that's where it started and it was a clustered in parts of Great Britain that was considered the first fan of because of the public demonstration of this group of. People about this piece of
media. So the first fandom came about in the 1890s. Find people of this like on mass scale. Like we people. We've always been like this. We humans. Yeah, no, no, totally. So that's the first modern fandom. The the olden day fandom. Fire obsessed. Yeah, No, for real. I mean eating fire, like, yeah, you want to talk about old like, OK, the gods, that's like a fandom, that Aphrodite. My fandom. No.
No, for real. And that's why, like, I stuck with the term modern because like, yeah, this could be centered around everything and we don't have like historical documentation. But yeah, you could, you could argue that. Absolutely. But our first like. In context of what we're talking about and like the fandom, we're going to fandom definition, we're going to explore like Sherlock Holmes was the first, it was a book series that was the first like fandom fandom in
modern times. And so since, like the early 1900s when this started, when this started happening, after the quote, UN quote death of Sherlock Holmes. The first fan fiction was actually written about this too, because people were upset about the ending and wrote their own fan fiction. So like in terms of what a fandom means to us today, this is really where that started. There was public art and fan fiction happening because of this. The book. We had to fix it. They had to.
Fix the ending. This is like our need to like. Say I reject the cannon because it's killing me. They didn't try to arrest Sir author Conan Doyle like the Fans of Killing. You've tried to arrest the lawyer deal. So it's not the same. It's not the same we'll get, we'll get to our fandoms later. But I just want to go through the history of fandoms. It started started there early 1900s.
Then it started like bleeding into other like mostly book genres or where that kind of fandom kept going. So, like science fiction. Work was becoming big. Westerns were always a big thing, so there was phantoms popping up centered around that in that genre. And in the 1930s is when they started formally organizing like in bigger groups and started holding annual conventions. So this is going to sound familiar.
One of the first ones is at the World Science Fiction Convention. So they started having formal groups of everybody getting together and in those groups. These fans and the fandoms started creating their own vernacular, referred to as fans speak. So like their own language was cropping up, centered around this thing. So it took about 30 years for
that to start happening. So first we had the art, the fan fiction, and then we started getting our own language and conventions about like 30 years after. And over time, fandoms kind of spread from books. Into other pieces of media. So like comic books became like the next big thing and then we got comic cons which still exists today and are huge, massive events that happen where
fandoms group in person. And so I'm going to split off of that and kind of talk about generally speaking if fandoms evolved as technology evolved because the whole thing is social networking, right, and the tools we have at our disposal will impact. Our ability to do that. So remember we started in the 1890s up to like 2023, which is where we are now. So like, travel change, like air
travel became more accessible. So people were able to create cons and get across country to a different country to meet each other versus like, I'm mad about this, you're mad about this. We're in the same village, let's put this on a telephone pole, which is how it started. So air travels. Are so weird because I my whole life is social media and like, that wasn't a thing. I know, I know. Continue. Yeah, we'll get to that. This is even, this is pre social media.
Social media is the thing that really changed everything but air travel. So just physically being able to get to the other people in your fandom, that changed everything. Telephones, just having a telephone and being able to keep in touch with other people across distances, that changed everything. So instead of just meeting up with people once a year, you could regularly communicate as telephones became something in everybody's home.
And then the Internet. I'm talking pre Internet, like just dial up www.whatever, AOL chat rooms early Internet. So early Internet gave us virtual forums to talk about one specific thing. You'd have websites dedicated to your fandom, you'd have chat rooms dedicated to your fandom. So it's another way to like, put everybody in one spot virtually and communicate with people in your fandom virtually.
And then from there, fan fiction sharing became a lot easier because you could have blogs dedicated to it, you could have to get a website dedicated. This is pre AO3 where we had other avenues, but like same concepts. We have that innate desire to like share these things, write these things and it became accessible to people. But in early Internet you had to seek it out. It wasn't coming to you like you had to go be like passionate about a thing, go look for it and get involved with it.
I'm sure Bree can understand what that was like. I understand what that was like. You had to seek it out? Yep. You had to go find it. You had to go find it. So at that point in time, early Internet time, so I'm talking like late 90s, early 2000s, like basically it was kind of the same thing like where like you had to be very invested and have to want to put the time in and go seek out the fandom like it was on the individual to be that
passionate. The thing that really changed fandoms into what we're dealing with now is social media, because social media became the main hub of all of these things. OK, so instead of going to a specific website, instead of going to a specific blog, it all kind of exists in the social media platform. And so while conventions exist and those kinds of things, social media removed all those barriers. No chat rooms, no blogs. Everything just migrated here. And so fandom hierarchies still
exist. Like the people that own the website, the people that run the fandom, like monitor all of that stuff, create the speak together that exists. But now you have people who have never interacted with a fandom, aren't seeking A fandom, come across these people when they're like just casually engaging with the material. And so there's a lot of like friction happening now in modern fandoms because you have people who don't understand fandom
etiquette. Who are not on the same level, interacting with people who otherwise really kind of cloistered off in their own world, who were passionate enough to seek it out, creating their own community together. So it's like you almost don't know the what are the rules anymore. It's there's there's this like friction happening because now it's just so accessible to people who are casual fans who accidentally get into a fandom
and then. Things kind of change and you can get things like like phantom culture is definitely changing because of that. But it also has a darker side of like bullying and drama that's happening when these two worlds are kind of colliding with each other and partially due to social media. And that is where we are today. And that is why we're going to talk about the good, the bad and everything between of what phantoms today are like.
So now that we've gone through the brief history of Fandoms, I turned it over to you guys to ask. What fandoms have you been a part of, and what was your very first fandom go, Caitlin? I was going to ask. If you wanted to go first since your no already asked first. All right. So I was trying to think about it. I think I've only really had three fandoms. I was going to say 2. Then I remembered my actual first one. And I don't know if you guys would know about it.
But when I was in like 4th grade, Hannah Montana was a big thing. There you go. And who is Hannah Montana but the incredible Miley Cyrus who is living her best life. But she had this whole fandom that I guess her people created called Miley World, where you subscribe to it and you would get like stuff in the mail and you get access to things. There was a Song Contest. Actually, I think Sabrina Carpenter, who just opened for Taylor Swift, was a part of it as well.
And yeah, so I guess that would be my first fandom. There was like trading cards and with stickers and everything. It was insane. I'm pretty sure my parents were so happy when that was over. So when was when? Yeah. When did that happen? That sounds like a fandom of our childhood where like you'd be like in a fan club. Yeah exactly. It was. It was like that. It's organized and there's prizes and like engagement. That sounds like a pre social media one almost, yeah.
Even radio like fandoms back in when they had radio shows did that, yeah. Totally. I want to. I'm. I'm just looking it up real quick because I'm actually here. I'm just curious. Yeah, like I want to know what time period that was because may have been early 2000s or something. I don't know. It was definitely, I'm thinking like 2007. Yeah, that sounds about right. Well, I mean, I just found an article from 2008 about it. So definitely 2007, 2008 ish.
2007, 2008 makes sense. What other fandoms have you been a part of? OK. So now the other one, and this is thanks to actually I don't think I was like online as much until like halfway through the show. But I mean we've heard me talk about it a couple of times, Pretty Little Liars, right, right. Right, right that. Was I started that show in 7th grade and we just continued with it and. They were very, very active on social media and like getting people together.
They would I I feel like they were one of the first people to start the live tweeting thing because one of them was just like, hey guys, this is what we're going to do. And it just made, I did many, many, many, many projects about this in college. So that's why, like, I know some of the dad, I don't remember most of it, but I do know like they were like. A big leader in like how to utilize social media for the show because it actually did help blow up the show even more so.
That was fun. I can't fully remember everything but that you. Were in by Nona Herb too. Yeah, that was, that was my last one that I was going to get to the. That one was the most recent and I just basically went on Twitter. They had this like. #Erper greet thing where you just introduced yourself and basically all the erpers just adopt you immediately and just bring you in. We'll talk about it a little bit later, but that's when it's still good. And then it can fandoms change
after a while as well. Yeah, so those are my three main ones. Gotcha. All right, well, my journey started way back in 1997 with a little show that no one's probably heard of at all called Buffy the Vampire. What is that? Well, technically if you want to get. Real. Technically. It started with the movie that starred Christy Swanson. Yeah, I did because I watched that and I remember being obsessed with that movie and watching it over and over and
over again. And then when the series came out, I knew I I don't think I had this the channel that it was coming on and so I had to ask my cousin all the time did you watch it? OK, so what's it what's it like? And that was the first few episodes and then afterwards I got access to it and then like like Theora mentioned you had to
go out and seek the. And let me just make it really clear this is time period where people didn't have Internet in their in their houses like regular like regularly especially in more kind of middle of the country places. So once we got Internet that was readily accessible and it was dial up so you got to hear the noise every time. I found the Buffy fandom and got involved.
Not as much at first, not as deep at first, but there was a message board called If anyone remembers this comment it in in the comment down below because or let us know the kitten, the witches in the bad wardrobe. This was a Willow, a Willow and Tara message board where people just posted a plethora of fan fiction discussions, everything in between. And I spent a lot of time on there reading a lot of fan fiction, one of which I will have, you know was published.
And I actually have the book. So it's a really cool book. It was an A U Willow and Terror fan fiction involving a like stalker killer dude, But Oh dear. It was actually, it was a really good story. I read it multiple times before she had to pull it off after it was published. So that was the first one and the first one, and I really, really, really got into it. Can I ask a question? Yeah. How do you? Create a chat for does that
message board, Message board. Well there were templates to do this all over. So you just build a website basically and then you you there were there were also places that hosted message board so you could go and form your own message board just based on their website like you just created your own there. So. This is what we mean when we say you had to seek it out. You didn't go to liketumblr.com or like buffy.com. Like you had to find the website that was hosting this, like the
specific one. Yeah, and Google existed, right? No. Well, I mean Google exist. I'm not gonna have a Google search engines of. Jeeves. Yeah, search engines existed. They weren't that great yet, but yeah. You could find the stuff if you basically you had to kind of find somebody who knew. Yeah, you had to be determined is the key here. Like, you wouldn't just like, put it into a search engine back then and find it immediately because there's no out, there's no like algorithm really in
these things. And so you had to like it might take you a few clicks to find what you're looking for. Yeah, it no, like you had to be determined to find these things. I would have been great at this. You would have. But after that, I've got OK. When I really got into the community aspect was when Kennedy came on to the show, so I happened to join the only EI Limone message board that
existed. And so I kind of got in on the ground level and I was part of the little we were called the Watchers. So it was like a little mini mod team. Who are like sort of the everyday users that got to the kind of like moderate things. And that's where I met this circle of friends. And as queer people do, we all dated each other at one point or another. There, there you go. There's your hierarchy and there's your social connection. Yeah, so I ended up moving to be with.
The longest, like the longest, my first real longest relationship came out of that fandom. So there you go then. I mean, we even got the the mod, the website, the message word moms even sent us because they were in contact with the actress. They sent us all of the little watchers. Autograph with a personalized message from her and stuff like that. It's cute because they didn't tell us what they were sending us. They were just like, we're going to send you something.
And then it was like a joke. What do you like? What do you. I was like, oh, is it a pony? And so the mod moms sent me a print out of a pony as well as the autograph. So there's the good part of the community we found like. You know, really friends like some, I don't think I speak to any of the you have to remember this was in 2001, two 2004 through 2005 maybe. So I don't really talk to any of them anymore.
But then after that there was some space where I wasn't doing any phantom stuff and then I I will say the next fandom. I was kind of on the outskirts of fandom, like would get in and then get back out the significant one that I want to skip all the ones that were kind of on the edge. But motherland really you're. A part of that, for brevity sake, I will say Motherland was the fandom that I got into the
most, the hardest and. To the point where, you know, I was part of a group that was relatively well known in the community and we made this podcast at the beginning for Mother to discuss Motherland. So that tells you how deep I was. And I mean I met Theora first on Tumblr. Because my ass put out a post saying, hey, I was thinking about starting a Motherland podcast. Zoom buddy. Interested. And guess who answered?
Somebody who is sharing the brain cell at the time was like, I was literally thinking the exact same thing, like let's do it. I have screenshots of it somewhere. And then we had like a little meeting where we were doing like a chemistry thing. We're making sure that we, like clicked it, went from there and then. I happened to run into Caitlin when, you know, doing all of this fandom stuff and she came on board and made everything better. I just have a habit of taking control over.
And then we expanded, yes, because obviously shows come and go and we couldn't just the important message wasn't. Just motherland. It was actual representation and queer media. So here we are. Those are like the most significant fandoms of mine. I mean, I've been in a lot of fandoms, but those are the most significant. Yeah, I think that that's fair.
I will briefly go through mine. I think the first fandom I was ever a part of and didn't realize I was a part of was Star Wars, because that was and the community was my relatives like they were. Hardcore into that. And so like, that was the thing. One of the things actually now probably the first fandom I was ever a part of. I'm no, I can't. She's got to go back. No, I'm sorry, because it goes back to the day I was born. The first fandom that was a part of is the New York Mets.
I was brought home from the hospital in a Mets uniform. Baseball is the thing that bonds my entire family together and, like the New York Mets, is a religion. In my entire family. So that was the first fandom I was ever a part of it. It's all the peripheries of today. But like hardcore knew everything about it. Like and because me and my father are very obsessive, we're the same kind of fan where we're just, we are fandom people like. So yes, it was a big bonding
thing my whole life. So it started with a baseball team, like immediately since I was born, I was born into fandom life, like, and then from there, I think. Star Wars was really my first taste into like media fandom and I didn't realize it because it was pre Internet and so it was very much like connecting with other people and also like my family was very big on it so we would like buy all the merch.
So like that's how it was. Things were accessible to us as pre Internet. So we would like buy literally every piece of war about it and like absorb it and then talk about it. And I read books that kind of like continued after the original saga ended. And I didn't realize they were fan fiction that were posts that were published. Like I didn't realize it but I was consuming these things. So like I inadvertently walked into that fandom and like was engaging with it.
But not Internet. This is pre Internet. My first Internet fandom was Clone Club which is for Orphan Black. I wasn't. Super. Like in the hierarchy structure, I was more like a peripheral participant. But that was my first taste of what a modern Internet fandom was like. And so it was a lot of it was on Tumblr that was like, where a lot of the fandom stuff that I was used to was happening. I didn't join Twitter until Motherland when I was forced to because of this podcast.
I don't really like Twitter, but Tumblr was fine because people were engaging with it the way I like to engage with media, which is people were analyzing the shit out of it and pointing out all these things and making these connections because there's a lot of like. Mythology in there. And they're like, well, they're using this to symbolize this. And to me it was just like, wow. It gave me a bigger appreciation for the piece of work. And I was like, wow, there's
other people that do this too. Like, this is so cool. So I started like engaging and I made fan art and like, that's the person I kind of really started participating. But my biggest fandom ever, where I was known and more of a contributor, was clowns, which is The Killing Eve fandom. So I was known on Tumblr for analysis posts. Like I would write essays about this show. I got shout outs on podcasts about Killing Eve.
I loved it so much. And the podcast I used to listen to you for Killing Eve is what made me want to do a podcast because. The way they would just break everything down, the nuance, the acting, the way they could shoot things, why they had mirrors, like all of this stuff, it just made me appreciate literally every single thing the creators
were doing on that show. Because it's one of those shows where you just watch it and like most of it can go over your head because there's like 3 layers to everything that you're watching. And so when you start peeling the layers back, you really see the brilliance of it. But that's when I really started engaging. I was really in like chat rooms about it. Not chat rooms, but like actually, yeah, Tumblr had chat rooms at this time. And I met so many cool people that I'm still friends with
today from this fandom. Like we would get up and watch it together when it was airing. And so that was like the first fandom I really participated in. And then from there it was it. Literally everything after that was podcast related. So Motherland fandom, where I was kind of doing the same thing on Tumblr and that's how it ran into free and then.
We were in everything else, like Motherland and all that kind of stuff, but my big favorite, favorite fandom that changed the way I interact with media I really love is The Killing Eve and. By the way, see, I have to tell you this before I forget, because I'd already forgotten. I found a new key cap set for you for for your for Julie's keyboard. It's killing Eve themed. There's a Killing Eve themed key cap set by one of the major key cap producers. It's all my mind.
I'm gonna send it to you later. They send me. Pictures. I want to see it. I will, yeah. I will always have a very fun place in my heart. That fandom has major problems. But like for me, it was the most positive experience I ever had with a piece of idea. And I've never had the same experience ever again. Like it was. It was a special moment in time. All right.
Bree, you were mentioning? Yeah, I forgot to mention one aspect of and the reason I think this is important is because it's another place where a lot of fandoms grew out of in the early days when it first came around Live Journal. So Live Journal was was started out as a place where you could go have a journal and then it turned into a hot spot for fandom activity. And I remember one of the really
big ones that that. I actually participated in on there was Grey's Anatomy when things got gay season four. Yeah. So the fandoms had been, I mean like two of my, two of my, or two of my best friends met their spouses on Live Journal Fandoms like these are people that that like are. Living in different countries from their original country now, because they met people from across the world, got married and move. One of them moved there, so. I love that.
The Power of Fandom and Live Journal have a habit of coming in, coming into fandoms way too late. It's never too late. I feel like the Phantom's like, not fully there anymore. Like there's I wish I was watched. I mean, it'd be really weird if I watched Grey's Anatomy when it first aired. I was definitely too little for that. Also, I was like just missed like thickly time. I feel like I should have been able to watch it, but I think I was just like slightly too young.
But it would have been cool to be a part of those when it was going on. It's definitely a very different experience, but it is never too late, truly, because there are there a lot of Holmes still has a fucking fandom been 200 years. So like, it's never too late, especially if there's a renaissance of the of the media or it just come the fandom kind of comes back in a big spike. That's what happened with Glee. I think I started watching it when everybody was watching it.
So you came for like the second wave? OK, so now that we've gone through what fandoms generally we've been involved with there. So we mentioned that there's like, there's good aspects to it. There's dark, dark sides of it. We're going to start with the good. So there's many things that can come out of a fandom, like some things we've already touched on, like building community is really the big one, because that's what separates A fandom from just being a lonely
observer and fan. There can be fun associated with it, obviously, because you're engaging with people who care
about something you care about. And through Phantoms, like you mentioned Caitlin, there was like merch and then Bree mentioned there's like fan fiction writing, there's it's a different way to engage with the material than just like watching it, listening to it, whatever the The thing is that the Phantom centered around and like Caitlin said, like you mentioned Glee. I'm glad you brought that one up because it also offers you a way to engage with it and experience
whatever it is even after it ends. So it's like. It's not just like you watch engage with the actual media and then when it's over, it's over. Like it kind of extends whatever the media is. We're just going to stick with media for the rest of this because that's what the podcasts about and it makes it easier. But yeah, if it's like a TV show, like even after it ends, like you can still engage with the media, which is really great and I think something that's super, super special.
So I wanted to ask you guys, of all of your experience with fandoms, what's what's the most positive experience that you've had with a fandom or that's like come out of a fandom? This, that's fair. And this and the friends that I made in the Motherland fandom, I still talk, obviously. I still talk to some of them, some, the others not. Not as much, but I mean we really, we built a little family
there for a while. And just like with any other fandom, things can kind of people fall away and once things are over, they go their own ways, etcetera. But yeah, I still have. I have, you know, you guys and particularly one other friend that I talked to on a very regular basis that came out of that fandom.
So friends that I've made and also thinking about things in a different way, Perspectives, gaining perspectives on a lot of different things, whether it applies to my life outside of fandom or. Analyzing pieces of media period was like meeting youth. Theora was one of the first times I ever met someone and talked to someone like every day that analyzes media the way I like to analyze media and actually could discuss it or wanted to discuss it in that way. Yeah, now.
Those are the positive. Those are like the most positive things I can think of. Those are all great. Yeah. The Pod. This podcast of you guys probably number one thing, but I have others. You want to go next Caitlyn? Sure. So, I mean, meeting people are great. I have like a people from all around the world at this point. I feel like I go to a country and feel like, hey, you want to meet up. I mean, I can even go to Kuwait, see someone.
It's insane. But my favorite thing about the fandoms is that, one, it allows me to learn other things and new ways to, like, relate it to things in the fandom. And so that's how I learned a lot of, like my marketing and all of that stuff that I get in school. That's why I did so much of whatever fans I'm in for school projects, because it helps me be interested in other things.
And along those lines, I love that the fandoms teach people skills because there's so many people learning how to edit from this and drawing and all this, these creative skills like learning to create websites, learning. I was going to start a con with people. So like, I was learning everything, how to start a con. And it's it's a lot of work, but you're learning so many different things because you have a group of people also. I mean, I learned how to make a podcast.
The fan fiction, that's another thing, is people learning how to and practicing writing. I mean, fan fiction is what I weaned myself on when I was really learning how to write stuff. But not that I'm that, my gosh, fan fiction, really. I don't know. It helped me at least as a writer, because, I mean, the first thing I wrote, I think was for like Camp Rock and Wizards, Waverly Place, and it was so bad. But reading more and then like, noticing, OK, this one's good,
this one's not as good. The writing got better and better and I don't think I could be anywhere as coherent today if it wasn't for that. Fandom is a version version of salons in a way I'm really grateful for. People, Yeah, I got to get together and share writing. Yeah. I was going to give my my example is fanfiction writing because I, you know I'm a type a perfectionist and if I can't be perfect I can't do it's that
millennial curse kind of deal. And so the writing so many analysis posts for killing Eve, I got to the point where I'm like. I have enough to write my own season and so I did basically. And it was semi successful in a big fandom, which to me was like okay, maybe I can do this. And the most positive thing that came out of fan fiction writing was I got into the blind manner fandom for The Danny Jamie Ship and I wrote. Like so much. Like I have still have a hundreds of prompts sitting in
my, like, Tumblr boxes. People would just be like, can you keep writing? Me too? Oh my God. Hundreds just sitting there. But I wrote a significant portion of fan fiction for that phantom. And one story that I start, I still haven't finished, but I started writing. Somebody reached out to me and was like, I want to make fan art about this. Is that OK? And I was like. No one has ever done that for me or wanted to. So I was very flattered.
And so I started talking to this person and we are still friends today and it's the friend that keep bringing up on this podcast, the one that transitioned.
And because Rainbow Islands was like a big deal, so like we're friends and this person lives in Australia and like we are friends because like they found this work, it resonated with them and we started talking and we're like, oh, we have other things in common and like so that was the most positive thing that ever came out of it. So it's like. It. Just do it for fun. Like have fun with it, do whatever you want with the fandom and like, you know it will resonate with other people.
And like, that was really special, just being able to like make a friend out of like, a fan fiction, which was pretty cool for me. I love that. I'm so happy that I didn't know that they're they reached out because of your story. That's really cool. Yep. Makes you feel really good, huh? Yeah, yeah, I do enjoy fan fiction writing a lot, So those are some positive experience. But of course there's not everything's all happy. There's there's a dark side to
fandoms. There can be a lot of toxicity, just straight up drama. In the era of social media, there's bullying, harassment, stalking. I can get up to death threats. Like, it can be really, really bad. And unfortunately, like bad behavior from the fandom can inadvertently reflect on the media and so people may not want to engage with something. I guess as a casual fan or like who could potentially be a fandom member if the fandom is exhibiting toxic behavior.
For me, my biggest example is the Bible. The fans are so toxic. I don't want to be a part of this. But you know, religion really does seem like just a big fandom. It is. It's a cult. That's why I mean, I call it a cult and I keep. He's a cult. I keep. Upsetting people for saying that they are.
Cult anyway, So, like, yeah, but like that kind of perception, like if the fandom is exhibiting toxic behavior in a public forum on Twitter and casual people see this, they're like, I don't even want to watch that, whatever this is because these the people engaging with it are so bad. Maybe the media is bad so like it can harm the whatever. The thing is if the people are exhibiting that. Kind of behavior.
So there's positives like we've talked about about building community, making friends, all that kind of stuff. But then there's also like the complete opposite of that where it can turn people off the media or like, you know, lead to bullying and things like that. And so have you had any negative experiences, either personally or something you've witnessed with fandoms? Of course, yes. What would you like? To share every single fandom I
have been in, it doesn't matter. And this is true of any fandom. There are people who are going to be positive and people who are going to be negative. It's just like anything else in
life. However, it's the groups that you fall in with and the way you the extent to which you communicate with a wide range of people that determine what your experience is going to be. And you can think that you're in the best like group within the fandom because all fandoms, just like high school, have subgroups or clicks. So you can find yourself all of a sudden in a click, not realize
that that's where it was going. Because everyone has this grand idealistic motivation like we're going to make the community better and we're going to be the leader in this and that. And then someone or a group of people within that subgroup decide that you know, just things go South. Just like with anything with people, they're going to be fights. They're going to be disagreements and it's those have been the negative experiences for me is either that or larger controversies
within the fandom itself. So either a controversy stemming from the media or and the people surrounding making the show cause a controversy within the fandom, cause the fandom to react in a negative way, or cause negative things for the fandom or people with different OK, it's all about ships, let's just put it. It's. Always. It's such a big, it's always ships that are fighting with one another or particular character
fandoms. So this has always been the way and it's always going to be the way. There's always going to be conflict between people that ship, you know, character, different characters within a fandom. Well, the issue. Sorry. No, you're cool. The issue becomes when others, when someone's like my opinion's the only one that matters, right? Like your ship is not allowed. Like, yeah, OK, ship them with multiple people. Like, it's OK. It always goes there though. There's always somebody that
goes there. It's it's always going to exist and that's fine. It is what it is. But I said. I didn't like Super Corp one time. And Boyd, it all helped. Wow, that Yes, some some ship fandoms can be more toxic than others. To be sure, let's just be real about that, because there. Is an emotional investment in a ship versus other aspects of the show. And human beings claim to be rational, but emotions will trump rationality when it is strong enough.
So that's what provokes these reactionary outbursts that are super toxic and are literally attacking, aggressive, etcetera. And you have other people there telling you that you're right and there's a group, you know hurt mentality. Yep. They're enables. It's like wars. Does anybody remember that term? What? What term Like wars. It sounds familiar because fandom speak has changed since the beginning of when I got into now because.
Because. But when I was like first and we had things like BNF, big name fan. So it was someone who had risen to a certain stature within the fandom. So you had to someone that was known by everyone. Like for example, one of the biggest and most I'd say popular B&F's is was from the Harry Potter fandom and now has a freaking insanely selling book
series or one or more series. Who has like fan fiction that they sell in bones that that she was one of the Bnf's in the Harry Potter fans talk about a fan of that had the most talks. Oh my God, that was a talk that. Fan is also just like Humongous, though Humongous and. Humongous. So that is not surprising. If you have enough people like you're gonna get that shit. That's gonna happen. There are is there and they were powerful fandom too.
Documentaries made like YouTube documentaries made about the conflicts surrounding this person. Because it was Cassandra Claire. She was accused of and was guilty of plagiarism in her fan fiction, to the point where she was lifting entire books and like, putting them as her fan fiction, changing the names. That's pretty toxic, yeah. So it's that kind of stuff, you know? And then people defended her. From like an 8 year old? Yeah, these are like people in their late 20s and 30s.
Yeah, that's fucked up. It's ridiculous. May send you guys a link about this. Yes, please do. It's wild. I mean any. Negative lobsters are involved. I've had a whole subset of a fandom pissed off at me, yes. You have. Yes. You have. It's not very fun because I had no control over it whatsoever. And. Yeah. So it's just, yeah, you were not the only one and but unfortunately you were the one that took the brunt of everything because you were the face. It's not always nice being the
face of things. No, it's not. It's alright. We get through it with a lot of therapy and then therapy and food. Except not anymore, you get. Less of a anxiety attack when
you see the thumbnails. On your own of the social media sites social media, I feel like it's done a lot of good but it's done the the accessibility has made it so much more dramatic because the bigger the phantom because when I joined Winona Herb I don't know if it was just like the people I was surrounded with it was fine and then as the last season was going it is getting bigger and that's when people become were becoming way
more toxic and. The worst thing I see is like when the fandoms are like broken in the middle and fighting with each other, like why are you fighting with each other? Well, I feel like, OK, so this happened with Warrior None. Yes. Also because the key of what you're the key of what you're saying here is. In the last season, because tensions are high at that point, especially with Winona Earth, because it was like this weird back and forth of like they kept getting renewed and then they
kept rescinding the renewal. And so it was like this constant survival to just get the next season. And so people's emotions are high, they're burnt out, they're tired, and they're upset that they're losing their show. And so when we're hurting inward and we don't know how to process that, we projected outward onto other people and we pick fights and we just. White people, and we're like, what's your fault? It's your fault and just attack each other. And that's what Warrior NUM was
doing. Like everything was pretty great until the cancellation. And then there was a battle to save it and it wasn't going well, you know, in the Silence period where we didn't know anything. And so then people start turning on each other after after a while because they're tired and burnt out and their emotions are running high and like. Especially when it's like shows back-to-back which we're facing now, so like.
If you're part of 1. Phantom and you try to move on to another and then it the same thing keeps happening. So yeah, and then also what was happening there too and like you said with Winona Herb, is that now more people are involved, people who weren't in the fandom to begin with and this is the social media problem. And then you have clashing of people who understand the rules, don't understand the rules, understand the culture of the phantom, don't understand it.
And then arguments break out. And I think that's partially what happened with word or not, because then like other phantoms are getting recruited like. The motherland people were getting recruited and they're like, hey, let's team up. And then you like, have people together that weren't together. And then they're bonded for this thing that isn't accomplished. And then everybody starts fighting. Like, it's just that's what people do. They just, they project their feelings outward.
And now on the Internet, where there's no consequence really, I'm like, I can post something super toxic and mean emotionally, but like, it doesn't affect me. I just like, walk away from it. But like, it's psychologically damaging everybody that reads it, so there's less consequences tethered. To those social media exchanges so it's easier to just be toxic and like walk away, walk away.
Yeah, And so that's what I want to talk about, because I think social media is like the worst thing that has happened to fandoms personally. Because again, the people that love, genuinely love the media and are seeking it out are usually are the ones that used to be in fandoms. Like people who just genuinely love it and are fair enough to be there versus men trolling women's media. Because they're like, hey, I can come here and like, be toxic and
make fun of what you're doing. It's easier to do that when it's on social media and it's accessible. And part of the thing that has gone away is the barrier between the fan and the creator, which can be good but can be bad. And I will talk about the killing Eve Phantom to throw them under the bus for this, because this was disgusting. So when killing Eve was happening.
Jody Comer was not the giant household name that she is now because she's been in, she's won many, many awards, but she was starting to rise in her career. And so Jody Comer was on social media when killing you Season one happened, and the fans got so toxic, they drove this young woman off of social media because they were so toxic. They attacked her boyfriend. Like, found shit out about him, stalked him, did all of this stuff. So like.
There's very real bad shit that can happen with fandoms because they feel entitled to people's time, or they just take things way too far to the point where you're in danger, endangering other people and like they were endangering the actress. Like mental health and wellbeing so much that this young woman was like, screw it, deactivated her social media accounts.
So which is super fucked up? Having just like a little bit of like attacking on social media and like the effect it had on me and I could never, I never want to be in her position. But like, I totally understand when people deactivate their accounts, even if they go away and then come back like, Oh my gosh, it's it is damaging when you have so many people messaging you that you're like basically a terrible person.
And like, it's scary if they can find you like you're the people that you are love and are close to because like, it's your problem that you put yourself here. It shouldn't be their issue that they're being found now because of something you decided to do. Yeah, and like, but like from the actor's perspective too. Like, it's their job a lot of the times. To promote their work on social
media. So these people are like, forced to be on social media to promote their work because we don't market stuff anymore, We do social media marketing. And so, like, you're forcing them in these positions where they're coming up against this kind of, like, psychological bullshit that people do. And there will be auditions where they ask you what your follower account is. Which is ridiculous. It is ridiculous.
She doesn't need that anymore. But, but also you're robbing that person of. The positives that come with social media that we've all talked about because now she that person is being robbed of like the fun that occurs because the fans took it way too far and bullied the actor off of social media. And there's another instance for Heart Stopper where the at where the fans outed one of the cast members. That's. Before he was ready to come out because they felt entitled.
To that private information about the actor. So there's very real consequences and toxicity that can come out of these groups of people who have high hive mindsets and just like attack people. Like I have a friend that was recently like ostracized from a fandom because of like a critique they posted about the work and like it blew up. And like this is there's very real, like consequences to just this, like hive mind bullying.
Type of thing that can happen in fandoms, including the ones we are involved with now or we're involved with in the past. And so yeah, so there's good and bad and everything in between that can happen with this because phantoms are made-up of people and people are just good and bad and everything in between. And so one question I want to ask since we've generally kind of talked about our experiences, good and bad. Do you think the platform influences the fandom or the experience?
Like for example, you guys have experience going to cons, so like in person interacting versus like the social media interacting, the early Internet interacting, does that change? Did that change your experience at all, like the like the platform? OK, so I've been to one con, not as a fan and. I will say from what I've what I saw there, it's everyone seemed to be having fun and getting along there again, it's a lot easier. But there was also an online portion, which I mean to its own
right was a shit show. But those people were very, very angry. And like, like again, some of it is warranted, but to the point of abuse. So the online and the non non in person. And an and an oh anonymity, thank you that the online presence gives you, makes people way more confident to say whatever they're thinking and it's very hurtful. But this the small gatherings I definitely feel like. Are the best. I understand why people want to go to conventions. I have been to one con and it
was. The same one, The same one, and I guess partially as a fan and partially not. Yeah, that would you say? So. Am I? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I dragged you into a lot of things. I mean you. Moderate a lot. Of things I'm like. Moderate to some. I helped Caitlin with some things, not half the things she was doing, because she was doing a lot of things, I mean, and I saw the effects that all of this
was having on on her first hand. As far as the the negative parts of of it, she worked her ass off to the point where we literally had to get her and feed her glucose tablets before she passed out. I pulled 2 nurses that were part of the fandom or fandom spouses of part of the fandom to come back there and take care of her because she was trying so hard to make it a good con for everybody that she was getting
making herself ill. So we had a great time in some aspects and another aspects because of that particular con, not because of cons in general. So I do think it changes, it changed my perspective being part of the inner workings of a convention or seeing it from backstage. So that's the part that changed for me. And then because all the panels that I was there for to actually go to were ones that I was moderating. So I don't have the like the actual just a fan experience of
going to a convention. But it changed it for me because I got to meet even people that were not. I was not part of those fandoms, but I knew those actors from
other things. And so getting to meet them and and hearing their perspectives on things and then getting to meet the people that were in our own fandom, the actors, because we had a more unique experience as far as we got to be literally up close and personal with these actors through like meals and like hanging out and stuff like that, so. But. I think that was also very dangerous, like the conventions, the amount of people like, especially the bigger ones that these people have to meet.
I sometimes I feel like it could be even worse than. So the only reason it worked is because it was a small group and I don't think any. I don't think there was much like there were many horrible. I don't think that they would have any bad things to say about their fan interactions as far as I'm aware. Those particular set of people, I really enjoyed getting, you know, to talk to them about their characters and all of that good stuff, But.
I really do think there is a huge difference between seeing people face to face and seeing them or seeing them online as an icon. Because you actually have to deal with the fact that that's a real person in your face and the interaction that you're having with them is is vastly different and it can go either more positive or more negative or just kind of somewhere in the middle. So yeah. Do you have any experience with
conventions at all? No, I don't, which is why I kind of wanted to you guys to talk about it. My perception or my guess based on human behavior would be that at a convention there is a monetary barrier, which is unfortunate. So fans that really care may not be able to go because travel cost cost the convention. It can cost a lot of money. That's why I volunteer at these
places if you can, because. You get free and admitted it's into things because I, the others here at the ATX Television Festival and I got on the social media team, so got to talk to some of the people to take photos, be in everything, doing social media for them. So definitely look into that. Thank you for that advice, but like barriers to getting to the convention aside, like travel cost, cost, the convention, et cetera. It goes back to the premise of early Internet and early fandoms.
You have to want to be there. Like you have to be determined to be there and care enough to get to that thing right? And so it weaves out a lot of the casual trolls that interact in fandoms and potentially make them toxic because the trolls don't care enough to go in person. And so the people there are ones who genuinely want to be there. And so I think there's more of an etiquette because I care
about this. And also, when you're in person, your social interactions are going to be different. You can't just spout off toxic shit and hide behind your wall of anonymity like you were saying, Caitlyn. Like there's consequences that you will face immediately if you're going to be an ass hat at a convention. Like if you're going to take things too far, like you were saying, Bree, whether it's to an act or to a fan, you're going to get physically removed by security and you're gone.
That's it. So. People think more before they say something or act right. So there's more of that. So I feel like it's a more more of a safe space for people who care about this thing because of, you know, the barriers #1 and also because you generally want to be there to get there versus the online forum. And I think the online forum, it depends on which forum you're in, especially nowadays in social media like Twitter is
toxic as fuck. Because the guy running Twitter now doesn't give a shit and just made it into toxic hell. So like Twitter is the most toxic. That's why I don't like that social media platform. It is just toxic as fuck. Sure, it's easy to use. Sure it's easy to find people. But it's easy to find good people and bad people like very easy. Well, it's harder now for us because you can't see who's actually verified. Right. It's just it's it's just toxic. It's mostly toxic people.
But if you go on like Tumblr, which? Not a lot of people use, but like for fan spaces, it's usually a lot more like fans who care about the thing. They're putting their artwork on there, they're writing posts there. It's more of a like safe space of in terms of interacting with your fandom. In terms of based on my experience, yeah, there's toxic shit, there's troll troll shit posting crap like that, but it's not attacking you the way Twitter just it makes it so easy
for you to get trolled and like. To get death threats because there's no like moderator for your bad behavior because the people who run that platform don't give a fuck. So like for me, I think the online spaces like can tarnish your view of the media, your view of people in the Phantom a lot easier than going to a convention where it's a group of people that genuinely want to be there.
So you're more likely to have a good interaction with fans in a convention versus I think in the in the online spaces. Even though the monetary barrier is not there with an online space necessarily. So you're more likely to have a bad experience, but it's more accessible because it's just you can just log onto your phone and just start fandoming
immediately. So I think the platform absolutely will influence your experience or the culture of the fandom, and then you can even take it a step further with with your. Online fandoms. If you have a Discord, for example, that's specifically dedicated to a piece of media, again you have to seek out the discord, care enough to join it. But it's not that hard to find those things, and so trolls can usually find it and get in your discord and like ruin the experience for everybody.
So like and that risk is always there no matter what, but it's an extra barrier of like you have to care enough to find this thing that I think helps weed out like.
True fandom people. And by true fandom people, I mean people who like, traditionally like care enough to like put the work in and like care about the media versus like trolls are looking for attention and people who are just looking just pick fights because they're lonely, they hate their lives, they're mad about the ship, whatever. Like people are just looking to take their messed up feelings and put them on to somebody else. That's way easier to do in your online forum versus your in
person. Conventions or even like the group that the fan group thing you were talking about. Kayla, I don't know if they still do it anymore. We have fan clubs and they like send you stuff and you can interact, but it's through a medium that's moderating all of the stuff and keeping it a safe place and it has pleasant experience for people. So yeah, I I think the, I think the platform influences fan of behavior big time. Yeah, for sure. I think that's just true of.
Do you have anything to add on the discord thing? Ohh, I'm done. I meant Bray since she's like
runs a few. So I OK the the best the best Discord fan community that I have been in was the the one that I started and we I think we we only ever had an issue once the entire time it was more and it it stayed kind of small as well so that was a factor But we we had you don't really need discussions and shared a lot of cool things on there but the the bigger and different see this was ship based so there were other discords that I was that I was in from the same fandom that
were very much more toxic and I stopped going in there just because I knew I was going to see a lot of things that were just going to upset me in the respect of like this isn't guys hey this is I know. That me from one of them, yes, we get very passionate about this fandom because we're emotionally invested like the OR said.
However, at the end of the day, people need to step away and realize that they are entwining their negative emotions into some into a piece of media and a community that's they can walk away from at the end of the day and just just treat people like you want to be treated. For goodness sake. I no understand why that's so hard apparently, but I don't know. It's just the amount of negativity and toxicity that I found in certain Discord communities was so high within this certain fandom.
And then there was the little Oasis of no one is having drama in this one. So I I don't know, it's just like it's either. It was either or for me. And I'm sure there are a lot of them that are in between. So just like anything, if you put humans in it, they're going to be positives, negatives, and mixed emotions. No, humans, we're the problem. It's us. Yeah, always. So what advice would you give to someone joining a fandom for the first time?
Don't get so involved that you lose sight of who you are as a person. Because I have known people who have done that and I have like my entire life, revolved around a fandom thing at one point and that was not healthy. Like, check back into reality at the end of the day, please. Yes. I would say kind of stay not on the outside but like like dipped in a little bit so you're able to talk to people about the show, but like you're not leading things and. Because that's it.
Make sure that it stays fun. Yes, that's the big thing. Make sure that it stays fun. Because once you start stressing out about a renewal campaign or you feel like you're literally going to war over a television show. I mean, it also doesn't have to be social media like the fan fiction. That's what I started with. Like when I realized that that was a thing. Oh my God, my world changed. Find your fan fiction niche.
That's my other advice. Find the people that write fan fiction that that appeals to you and encourage them. Please comment on writer on fan fiction, writers stories. People don't do that. And that's one of the main things that keeps you writing is feedback. Even if you're saying, hey, why did you do this, this wasn't, I didn't see this story going this way. Even if you're giving valid criticism, don't give just bullshit criticism like. That's not cool, but.
Yeah, I mean. It has trauma from that one. Tell people what you like about their writing, or their fan fiction, or the characters. Just that's one of the main things. If you want more fan fiction, comment on fan fiction. Also, please respect the people that write the fan fiction because they don't get paid for this and they have lives. And also like, OK, as a fan fiction writer, we do it. Or us first because it's fun.
So like please don't make it not fun because then it stops because and don't ask every two seconds when the update is coming. Please don't ask when's the next. Update, especially if that person. I don't know whole fish. I don't know. I got a life. Yeah. It's like, I love. I love that you want more of this story, but the more you ask, the less I want to write it. Correct. I will delay it.
The more that people ask me that may be like and I know that may piss people off, they're like, but if I like the story and I'm saying I want more of it, I'm like, but don't do it over and over again. We know, like, we know that there are expectations. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I want to look forward to writing. Exactly. That's not. Thought I'd get into that too much. But yeah, have fun. That's really the main thing.
And like everybody said, if that's stressing you out and it feels like work, you're not having fun. Remember, nobody is paying you to be in a fandom. Like it's it is not your job. Saving a show is not on you. Remember who actually cancelled it. And to begin with, that's the person who fucked everybody over. It's not on you to like, carry the weight of like other people's jobs to make art. But find your people. Find the people that engage with media the way you like to engage with media.
Cuz not everybody likes to do the same thing. Some people like to make thirst edits, some people like to write novels about everything, like me. I like to write analysis. I like to look at it. Some people just like. Like to bother actors. I don't mean bother actors. Praise them. They're more invested in the people than the media. And it's like, whatever your flavor of fandom is, like, remember everybody in the fandom of the creators, they're human
beings too. And just like the goal is to have fun and like, get some enjoyment out of whatever it is that your fandom is centered around. And so if it doesn't feel like that and it's stressing you out. Take a step back. Maybe that part of the fandom life isn't for you. I know we've all had experience with that, with like, I need to step back from this because it's affecting me and it shouldn't supposed to be fun.
If you want a safe place, if you want a safe space to talk about career media, come join our discord. Because it is a small group and it is a a safe space for talking about that kind of stuff. And there's a bunch of people that like to interact with things in different ways. Yeah, find your people. Because community is the key when it comes to Phantom, and that's what makes it different and unique. For better or worse, it was way to sum it up. Yep.
All right. Any final words before we move on with our day? Let us know what your first fandoms were. Yeah, What fandoms affected you the most and what? Platform I guess was kind of on because I don't know any of I know there are some OG Xena fans out there that can tell us stories if. There's any Star Trek fandom people that have your that one's been going on for so long. So yeah, all right, cool. So fandoms. How much would you hydrate?
For lesbians, can I hydrate some and take some away the shore OKI have to do whatever. You want No, I've got to give. I've got to give Fandoms 10 because even when it's been negative, I've learned a lot. So it's been a freaking ride so far. And I've it's it's been like 20 some odd years. I don't see it ever stopping. I'm glad I met you guys, so I have to give it 10.
And fandoms are entire life, so it's like hard not to give it a 10 because truth, yeah, there's negatives, but then what is life for love? That was depressing. But also like Thanks Caitlin I. Think what we mean is that while there's a, it's like there's a risk reward, right. The reward is better than the risk in this yeah, in this case for sure. And in most cases you can just when it gets bad, you just step away. Exactly so. 10 out of 10 from Big Energy team encourage fandom
activity. Just find find what works for you, because there's there's a lot of different experiences what? Positive fandom activity. Yeah, like, just find what works for you. And there's nothing more rewarding than getting to engage with piece of media or whatever it is that you really, really love. Like. So 10 out of 10 there? All right, That's the fandom. Life, please. Respond to all of the comments we asked you to. We're curious.
We wanna know. And until next time, hydrate for the Jeezy and get it up all over the place. Bye, bye. And with that, we've been big gay energy. If you like this episode, check out all our other episodes on whatever you're using to listen right now. If you're listening on Apple, we'd really appreciate it if you left us a review. No matter how brief, it helps us get into Apple's algorithm to reach a wider audience. Please feel free to reach out to us. We would love to hear from you
about everything and anything. You can. Find us on all the social medias at Big Gay Energy Pod or e-mail us at Big Gay Energy [email protected]. If you'd like to make friends with other queer media loving people, reach out to us to join our Discord server. If you'd like to support us, check out our merch store or join our Patreon for early access to episodes, exclusive content, and so much more. Until next time, stay safe and hydrate for lesbian Jesus.