Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters, and we're. Here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. What's on the big gay agenda today, Fiora? Today the number one item on the big gay agenda is wrapping up High School Musical the Musical the series by talking about season 4.
Just as a heads up, this will be a episode full of spoilers, so if you want a spoil free review of High School Musical The Musical the series overall, go back to our very first episode about this where we give our non spoilery review in the beginning if you're joining us for the first time for some reason. If not, and you're here for all the fun stuff, just keep on listening. We're going to get into all of it, but before we jump into all that, just a quick little
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Your interactions mean the world to us, and these actions contribute to our ongoing celebration of queer media and advocacy for better representation. Oh 'cause that's really why we're all here. Yeah, it's also just so fun. It really is fun. And then I just love when people point out things that we didn't talk about on the episode. And it's just like my. It's great. And and educating us because you know we don't know everything. We don't pretend like we know
everything either. Yeah. So for the people not watching and the people watching, I have found yet another costume to put on finale the everyday that we filmed. So we filmed two episodes in one day which is why I had the same costume on. But I I have looked in the archives for this one, which is not that hard. I don't have most of my, like, actual dance costumes. So these are all guard, which is fitting also for Carlos. True.
Yes. All right, so let's get into Season 4. This is my favorite season. OK, so the new characters this season that we meet are Quinn, who is very I have not figured out a way to describe Quinn like in like 1 word. Who's Quinn? The director. The director. Oh my God, dude, I love her. She's just like, OK, well, I'll explain Quinn. I actually love Quinn. Quinn is just that really pretentious person that went to art school and never got over themselves.
So she has a massive ego. So she comes into High School Musical, she's directing the play or the movie, High School Musical 4 or whatever. And she's like, yeah, I don't know anything about High School Musical. I'm just here to make it artsy as fuck. I did this like indie film. That's the best thing ever that no one's heard of outside of those scenes.
So she's just full of herself. She's like the classic, like egotistical maniac director who clearly doesn't understand the material, 'cause she's just like too artsy about it. And it's like this is literally just a high school thing. Like, what are you doing? She's. Trying to make it like a Kubrick film or something ridiculous where you're like, girl, maybe you should have read the script before you ended up here. But yeah, that's her. So she's like, hard to deal with.
For a lot, with a lot of the actors, because she doesn't understand the material, because she never read it and however takes over. I do love like her relationship with Maddox. We need to talk about that a little bit later. But sure, yeah. Yeah, she's fucking hilarious. I'm like, yes, a Glee character is here that's actually being themselves and it's great. Just while we're on her really quickly. I didn't. I was going to bring it up
later. But when so and Danny is doing the like, big Miss Darba scene and she reads the stage directions, Quinn's face is the funniest thing. She's just like, like, what the hell are you doing? Like that's the first thing you learn. For real, but like don't hire influencers to be actors. Like that was a big mistake. I think Mack was probably part
of the reason. So some other new characters that we just kind of brought up Mack the child star, Danny the influencer, and a handful of characters that we already know well from the High School Musical movies. Now this season, we are back at East High, no longer at Camp Shallow Lake. It's. The two weeks have passed. Summer is over. Fiore is always going to be hung up all those two. Weeks so dumb. Thank you.
But this is where we find out that the fall musical will be High School Musical 3, which side note you can't actually. It's not a show you can license. I don't even think it is a shade show. I know I saw that there was a video of a high school doing it, but I have not been able to find the rights to this show, so I don't think it actually exists. It's just Disney flexing. Maybe that's why they never did it. You can't actually do it like the show. They never actually do.
It at the end of the season, don't they? Yes, they do. Do they? Yeah. Oh, I guess they do. I almost fell apart. My bad. That was that was really funny. If it just yeah, never mind, never mind. My brain went somewhere else for the realism. It's just Disney flexing. They're like you. We can do it 'cause it's our show and we own the movie rights. Yeah, I don't know if like, maybe there was rights at one time and now there aren't, or like, I don't know, it doesn't
matter. It's just Disney propaganda. While they're putting on High School Musical 3, the big thing going on right now is that they are shooting High School Musical for the the the 4th movie in the series with at the high school at the high school. This is the high school that hosted the movies, so that's what's that's why everyone is
converging. And there's quite a few original cast members there and they're filming at the same time as the show is going on. So there's a lot of High School Musical going on. That poor school will never be able to escape school. It's the coolest. We can't escape That school actually has tours every day after school. It's like self-guided tours. So there's maps and everything. I don't think you can get in there right now, 'cause there's construction. I know way too much. Yes you do.
Obsessions. Hyper fixations. That's what happens. But Mac and Danny are the leads for High School Musical 4. But Quinn fires Danny after the first day because you know she's awful. You literally cannot. Act. It's like you're just trying to hire somebody who has a fan base to bring to the movie, 'cause like, I mean, yeah, they have her dating Mac quote, UN quote, but it's publicity anyway for the movie. So none of it's real.
It's just she was somebody they're interested in because she has a following and so the following will guarantee fans for the movie. It's like, it's like the same premise of just like making ATV Show based off a movie that already has fans in the hopes that some of them will watch it so that the project is less likely to fail. It's like the same thing. That's why there's a million Spider Man movies. I like the new Spider Man.
I mean, I haven't actually seen the old Spider Man, so like, I can't really. Why are there 10 of them though? Why do we keep remaking Spider Man movies? Just leave it alone because it's easy. Apparently it has a fan base, but yeah, but that doesn't work with like people who like, act in social media. Tik Toks is not the same that playing yourself is not the same thing as actually acting, which is what this is demonstrating.
And I think this is a good thing to have cause too many people think they're influencers or are trying to be influencers and that doesn't always translate into actual acting cause like she's not trained at all or didn't actually do any acting outside of whatever she does on social media, you know. So it's just like a modern commentary of something that happens nowadays. I thought was she was really annoying but I thought that was a really interesting thing to comment on. Yeah, so.
They kind of forget about her halfway through the season, I feel like. She doesn't mean anything. She's pointless. It was literally just for that. And just she's a McGovern for the relationship drama with Gabriella, with Gina and Sorry I and knock off Troy like. Knock off Troy. Good luck to you. OK, but it doesn't matter because Danny gets fired and Gina gets the part instead. Oh no. Who could have saw that coming? Well, I mean they show you in
the first see episode. Oh my God, the first scene in the first episode, that Gina's gonna be the part in the part. Basically, Gina becomes a lead to cause drama because it's Ricky's senior year and Gina started in season three her her character arc to become who she is basically, and it continues here. Yes. So what I was gonna say is we see her in the first scene. That's where I was. Yeah. It took me so long, like I was sitting there like, is that, You know? Is like, who is that?
I don't know why it took me forever to realize it was her. I thought it was like just another person, 'cause I didn't expect it to be her. So I don't know why I some things took me a really long time to understand in this show and I don't know where my brain was. It was distracted by the song probably, and there's music
playing and. I don't listen to lyrics, like, understand lyrics enough until like I actually sing it and learn it. So yeah, it's gonna it's there's another point in here that I make that I didn't understand until I listened to the song. OK, so But this opening scene was so nostalgic and getting to see the characters again. It was just so much fun getting to see them feed those characters again. And then they finally confirmed that Ryan is gay. Finally.
Finally, fucking Disney. It took this spin off thing. Way to go, yes. Ryan has a wonderful partner with twins on the way. Very cute. So after that opening, we actually get into the show and we start this season with messy queers. That's all I could think of. Like that. They're all it's messy. And it's the writer's fault that it's messy. It didn't need to be. You didn't? No. So I hate this. Again, it's just relationship drama to have as the tension when we didn't need any of this.
But please, at least for seven, Carlos, yeah. So we'll get more into details as we keep going. I this one is kind of like goes along with the season, but just an overview of the messiness. Seb is currently not speaking to Carlos because he thinks Carlos cheated on him because of the documentary, because of the scenes that he was leaving this year. I guess they call it with this other dude that I don't actually remember his name and then it doesn't. I call him Pumpkin Dude because
of a the episode. So Ashlyn and Maddox are giving each other a relationship advice, which Gina doesn't understand why they're doing this and Girls same. It's flirting. It's just flirting, yeah. So the basically the all it is the whole time that they're spending the whole time trying to help each other with relationships that are never gonna work. Out because anyway. Well, also because it's Disney, none of the relationships work out because it's.
This is also a ridiculous plot point, because not that I like the Ashlyn Maddox stuff, not that I'm not hating on that. I think it's ridiculous from how they wrote it because at the end of season three we didn't talk about this, but like Big Red comes to the prom or whatever and basically tells Ashlyn, like, you're the love of my life. We were meant to be together and. It's like why put that? In there I just yeah, it's it's in the. Middle there, it's in the middle
of them doing the show. Like, OK, hold on, let's get into that real quick. Big Red leaves the show in the middle of it. Like not during intermission. In the middle of it, they're live streaming it. So he's walking in the aisle where the camera is and and he asked Ashlyn if she could talk. She's literally performing. Yeah, she has a 20 minute break because of ensemble life. But like, I know, this was time to talk.
This was so unnecessary. I don't know why they wrote any of it. Like you said, the sequence itself is ridiculous. And then the conversation is ridiculous because then they just break them up the next season. So it's just like, I'm almost glad it didn't continue, 'cause I'm worried about Ashland and Maddox Spoiler, because they just keep breaking everybody up and they're just like, yeah, it's end game, it's going to be
great. And then they break them up immediately and it's like, what are we doing? Like what is the? What are we doing? I get their teenagers. I do. But like, why put that in there? That was really weird. I don't know, but I just, I just want all the cuteness. Like I know you need drama in a show, but. Like right I. Just kind of see them. Cute. But I also what I don't like about this show sometimes is that like, the drama isn't actually drama. Like they had Ricky and his
parents great. They had like Gina and her parents, great, EJ and the college stuff, great. But then they just like, shoehorn in just like relationship drama, to create drama. Like because they're like, well, there's not enough. We have to like make them break up or we have to like make a misunderstanding where it's like you could have done so many other things to create drama that wasn't just like, yeah, there's like drama. I I prefer more outside.
Than like than. 3rd chip Exactly, which is easy to do in a high school. Yeah, it's just they always have to force tension with the romantic characters as the drama where it's like why? Why can't why couldn't like Seb and Carlos go on the journey of like Seb's not out to his dad? That could have been their drama. Why create this weird like we need to talk about? That one later too. I don't think I have that in my notes, but we just need to talk about how stupid that plot point
was. And. Again, that's the plot point that shoehorned in. But like the relationship drama was the focus. It's like the choices like that I don't like from the writing in the show. I wish they would have like took take the foot off the pedal there and like focus on other stuff 'cause like the characters at this point are very fleshed out and like 3 dimensional and it's a like play with that instead of playing with like weird, petty.
I don't know. It's like reality show drama and it's like why this is scripted, Why are we doing this anyway? But like the Ashland, to go back to Ashland, Madison, their whole thing of just like texting each other constantly about other people is such a like useless lesbian thing that happens where you're just like, yeah, girl, your boyfriend, blah blah blah blah blah blah. But you're like secretly in love with them. Like that's kind of real life.
So, like anyway. But Gina spends so much time with Ashlyn that, like, she knows exactly what's going on. And I love that she tells Ashlyn to keep her eye on the prize. And it just makes Ashlyn freak out even more. She's like, what's the prize? Why won't she tell me? And she knows she's not dumb. Like we mentioned, Ashlyn spends the first few episodes constantly texting Maddox like that's all she's doing and smiling at her phone instead of being in the moment. So now I know the crush is
mutual. It has been the whole time. Also. It's easier when you're a baby gay and like, OK, like what? In season 3 when she didn't realize the what the she didn't see the rainbow on the wall kind of thing. When she finally did, that in and of itself is scary and you have to process all that shit. But then to be like she had big feelings about Maddox the whole time. Hence like I was snapping at you too. Not just my gay awakening. So the crush was there the whole time.
But then to watch the documentary trailer and be like, oh, she actually likes me, that changes everything when you're like, not only is she queer, so I know she's an option, but she likes me. She's more of an option, but she's not physically in front of you. It's 'cause they're texting, it's a lot easier to just, like, be yourself and talk to them. It's less intimidating to have her. It would have been another story if, like, they were constantly together.
I feel like maybe they wouldn't have been texting and flirting as much. It would have been another way, but like. Feel like it would have been avoidance. Correct. Exactly. It would be like, well, she has a girlfriend. Or like, I don't know what this means or like, whatever, but like, it's so much easier virtually when you can just be like, well, whatever. We're texting about her girlfriend. I'm not flirting with her. Like she has the element of
denial as she's like. And we do see that like Ashton's like. I can't walk now. Why can't I just function normally? Right, 'cause it was another it's another story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I think this was played very realistically for like a little baby gay coming into their queerness, 'cause that's kind of how it goes, you know? Yeah. Yeah. When do you stop being a baby gay? When you get your gay card in the mail, when you do not get yours in, you gotta apply and
take the test. It's an exam. Here he is. OK, so now we're gonna go talk about someone that I'm sure of yours is extremely excited to talk about. Let's talk about Gina. All right. So I no, we've talked about her a little bit, but I don't feel like we've gotten, we've given Gina enough attention like through her journey, like her arc, especially last season like we only brought her up about with EJ breaking up. So I just wanted to give her a little bit of time in this episode.
So we talked about in season one how Gina came in as the New Girl and she didn't know where she fit. I mean, she's used to being the new kid, so she's always reinventing herself. And in this season, we see flashbacks, which I really hate flashback episodes, and like they're new scenes, but still I don't like those episodes. Like we don't have enough time to do that. Okay. But like, it gave me a nostalgia over. I was like, what is this?
Because it gave me a nostalgia from like TV back in the day when you'd have like 100 episodes per season and they're like, we don't know what to do. So they would just do like a best of highlight reel and that would be the episode. I felt like that's what I was watching because I was like, is this what happens when you actually get Four Seasons of a
television show nowadays? They're like, well, we don't know what to do. So let's like, throw in some deleted scenes and, like, fill the episode with that. And that's basically what this felt like. I hate it so much. I really wish. No, I don't think I there is some good lines. I I do bring up some lines in there so like the in between those scenes I liked, but I hate going backwards. Let's keep going forwards like you. Sometimes you have to go backwards to go.
Forwards, but like, the stuff that we learned wasn't even like that important. So we we found out that Ricky and Gina like Gina's the reason that Ricky even auditioned. And then because Ricky was auditioning, Gina auditioned, which doesn't make sense because she was already in the theater. That's. But to be fair, most of it, most of it did track to what actually was happening in season one.
But it also doesn't make sense because Gina's whole business was like, Oh yeah, I'm so into like theater and dancing and shit. So, like, what do you mean she wasn't gonna audition? Like, in what universe She was they also? Really. Played up the bad girl thing like she was not like that as much like it was more of like a caricature. They were all caricature. They were all one-dimensional characters. Let me first get they 'cause they were trying to be Glee. So yeah, but exactly.
So now you have 3 dimensional characters and you're like, let's flesh out what happened in season one. And that's kind of what they were doing, which was. The scene between Ashlyn and Courtney was pretty cute because that one was great. Yeah, you saw how Ashlyn did not have friends. You got to see because we didn't see any of them in season one. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, I just got it. I just got the line.
That was interesting. Please flesh out the characters that weren't characters in season one. They were just supportive, tertiary characters at best. So yeah, seeing scenes with them, it's like this would have been great if you put this in season one to begin with and gave them lines 'cause they're great. As well as the Carlos scene, 'cause that's when we saw like that he was bullied, like and was hit like right before.
Yeah, this whole thing started and that's why Miss Jen took him under his wing, her wing, and it's just amazing. So what you're. Saying Caitlyn is we didn't need the Gina Ricky shit because. No. No, we didn't need that at all. Nobody cares like. The only thing is like. Oh my God, they are meant to be together because they they for the reason that each other auditioned for the show. But no Ricky was there. Chasing Olivia Rodrigo. That's not what, Like you can't
wreck your act. If you'd be like, just kidding, like, let's erase her out of the show even more. Be like, no, he was there for Gina the whole time. It's like, really? That's convenient now that Olivia Rodrigo's gone? Isn't that convenient? But we also, we didn't get Maddox and Jet until the 3rd or 4th episode, the third episode in the season. They're not even in the flashback scenes. They're just in the little midway things. And I and I just want more Maddox.
So. So like, I don't like the flashbacks, just put them into the I really, really hate flashback episodes. Can. You tell, I can tell. And I think that's a remnant of growing up with television. That wasn't slow. When you have 20 episodes a season, you can have episodes that are literally about nothing, like there's a bottleneck. There's like not even that. There's an episode of the Gilmore Girls. It's just about Rory trying to find a bracelet.
That's the whole episode. Like, forget that one. That is the whole. Episode. That's the plot like, but it like fleshes out point like it's sometimes you need. That you? Need it to slow down so you can just like process everything and like let the characters relax. But now when seasons are like 6 episodes, it's just go, go, go, go, go. So then when it slows down like this, you have this reaction where you're like, we're not moving, we're not moving.
But it's like television was never meant to be a movie and it's like now we constantly have to keep going before we get cancelled. It just, it's a product of where we are and it sucks. And I'm sorry, I feel like. 13 episodes were is a good place. Like, I feel like that one. This season 2 was 12 episodes, and I think I like that one a little more because it was able to do more in the season but need episodes and to use one as a flashback episode, that was
bullshit. I just want more, but I don't know. Television in general needs to change because this model we have right now does not work, no. We're I That's a whole nother episode. A whole different. Episode We're. Creating throwaway content right now. Like that's basically what Disney. Disney used to market so much and do. Like, even for this show, season one, they did so much and now and in between season one and two, after like season 2 started, they did nothing.
I feel I at least I haven't seen, I mean I haven't watched it as it was airing, but you don't see like the shorts on YouTube anymore, like the holiday special, anything like that. They're like, oh, we don't care. And I mean, they probably blame COVID, but they're not doing anything. Really. That's not just Disney. No, but I just noticed with them, 'cause I know them as well, OK? Anyway, back to Gina. I'm still now. I'm just still like, enraged by this episode.
Freaking flashbacks. OK, so once Gina doesn't feel like she is directly competing with Nene and like she finally got the stay somewhere because of Ashland, yes, yes, the aura. I know you have an issue with this. I do. I have an issue with Gina doing the same thing to the director later. And I'm like, again, and what planet is this gonna happen? Oh, no. OK, we we'll talk about that real quick then. OK? So she talks Quinn into doing 20 pages of a script in one day,
first of all. Oh, there's that, too. I didn't even mean that one. But yeah, OK, this one, this one's also egregious. Yeah, please. This is what I'm saying. But in these shows where, like, kids rule the the whole thing, I'm like, this would never happen in real life. Get. Out of here. This could never happen in real life cause Oh my God oh God I just can't I can't even get it out. Like how outrageous 20 page, you know that they're like trying to pick an outrageous number on the
set and you know everyone else. It was more of a this is what happens behind a set and like all like the jokes, what they would normally film. I feel like is at most like 3/4 of a page. I think that's what we were taught in school because there's so much set up and things and Quinn like talked about how she like we'll probably do the scene 50 times. Even if you do it in one take, you still have multiple setups because you need redundancy.
The editors need think different takes and different angles. Yeah, like 20 pages would take you two weeks. That's not totally true because like it depends on like what the pages are. Right, it depends on not that this is this isn't an action movie or anything like that, but like if it was like dance choreography like. Because. So for reference, one page and a script should be one minute. So like an so a movie is like typically 120 pages and a like a comedy would be like 20 to 30.
So like this is how much they were trying to do. And if it's a montage then forget about it. And they did do some montage stuff, which is way more setups. Yeah, I know, too much anyway. But I think that's also the point because they also make the joke with we can just do A1 take and I can walk the Steadicam up through it because I used to be a choreographer, which does not relate to that.
I know what. Is this I hate, I hate this drives me nuts in these shows with the kids just like take over and it's like you don't know what you're talking about. Like, no, it's why children can't be in charge of shit. Like, no. But they pan over to the Steadicam operator when Quinn says it's not that heavy and you just see him. Right. See the the poor person, that whole thing was nuts.
But then at the end when they're like, yeah, we're gonna go film this in New Zealand, cause tax breaks and it's cheap. And Gina's like, I accept the role only if we film it right here. And I'm like, on what planet is this gonna happen? Like you don't get to make that demand. Like there's contracts and money and stuff and like what? You're a nobody.
Like, get out of here. Like, but again, like they were setting up Season 5 and they're like, yeah, we're gonna stay in Salt Lake. And it's like, 'cause the kids said. So It's like, it's stuff like that that I hate, 'cause it reinforces bad behavior. Then people are just like, yeah, then I can make demands when I'm, you know, 16, I think I know everything. And it's like, no, that's how that works. Quinn did tell her to make headlines.
No, I know that that's not so contracts were definitely already in place like that's. Never been working that night. Like there's I read 1 Fan Fiction where they're where they're like, Quinn ends up telling them, oh, the studios won't let us get out of the New Zealand thing. So we have to go to New Zealand fan fiction writer that was. Bullshit. Fan. Fiction. Fixes everything. Let's be real. There's like some season four things that like are even better than.
Like the show. It's I'll bet, yeah. It just keep going off on rants. But I have problems with things like that. It's just ridiculous. I didn't even think of it. I'm just like, OK, cool. Not actually get to stay together. I'm glad. Right, but like, think about it for two seconds. It's like, in what planet is this gonna happen? That's so stupid and far fetched? It's wild. Not that all of this isn't wild, but, you know, Gina. Kids shows, man. That's why I don't like them.
Too unrealistic? So Gina's trying to figure out who she is and where she fits because she's finally gets to stay. That's where we started with all of this, but we talked about that in a second episode. What I think is really important to talk about is in season three, everyone kept talking about how Gina, one point O was back because she was like competitive, trying to get the part. And Gina like, kept denying it because, like, they're making her feel like that's terrible of
her. Like that was awful that her old personality was coming back and she needed to be this person who was always caring, always nice, never got competitive. But like, really that is a part of her. She is competitive and she goes for what she wants. 'Cause she had to like she's always the new kid, so, like, she needs to be able to create the opportunities for herself.
Also, you guys are all in an environment, AKA theatre, that has competition built into it. How can you be like, Oh yeah, no, you need to be a loving rah rah theatre kid. She's trying to like. She's not like, she's like working crew, like she's trying to be like the lead in the play. Like that is a competition in and of itself. Like, that's how that works. You can't be mad at her for that. Like, that's insane. Yeah. So she's like starting to realize that that is a part of her.
She doesn't have to 'cause I I think in Season 2, she was trying to change more to be who people wanted her to be because she wasn't fitting in. Yep. And she and her walls were coming down. So she is being able to open up, but she has to figure out who she actually is and how to balance these two ginas. And as I was thinking about this, I finally realized that that is what the song she sang called Balance was about.
So I wrote. I have some lyrics from that song written down in the song she sings. I feel like it's my time not the old me 2.0 me know the real me is about to shine. And in another part she talks about like them like 1/2 and half thing and then again she says and maybe before I was only half of me but now I trust in my instincts and I I'm loving what I see. So, like, I just, I love that song in general, just because I I love all the things, like telling you to love for
yourself. Because like, that's what that age group really needs to understand. Because there's so much stuff telling kids to be this certain way, like be like Danny the influencer, but these so like Ashlyn, Courtney, Gina, they're all learning to love who they are without people telling them who they should be. You know what this reminds me of? I know it's. It's not just kids. Adults need to hear this too, and particularly women.
So this reminds me of the monologue in the Barbie movie where America Ferrera was basically saying, like the the impossible balancing act. It's like you have to be smart, but not too smart. You have to be like, you know, driven but not too competitive. That's exactly what Gina's going through. It's that, oh, she's the mean girl. It's like, was anybody mad at Ricky for always going for the lead or being like, oh, he's too competitive? No, it's put on Gina the woman.
So it's like it's this is very much like a Barbie movie moment. No, but Carlos is upset with him for getting the parts when he's never prepared. And I agree with Carlos. I agree as well. But like, again, You know what, Carlos? Is definitely dogged in the show as well, like. But like, yeah, like the the same double standard does not put on any of the men like. And let's go back to season one, is anybody really mad at EJ for being competitive when it comes to theater?
Like, no. No. No, but we're mad at Gina Barbie movie. This is a Barbie movie moment. And it's not just that's clean. I mean, I think everyone loves that scene, but that scene is so American fur is amazing that. Whole movie is amazing. Turn this off and go watch the Barbie movie. I. Finish this. It's so good. But yeah, like, it's something everyone needs to hear. Everyone because yeah, I I understand what they're going for. But like, why is it the woman's potline?
It's a double standard. That's. Fair Most of the guys are just about the I don't know, he has. His own thing going on, But like, no one calls him out for like being competitive about theater. He's called out by Ashlynn for like being toxic as fuck to people Like yes, which is great, but like, no one cares that he's hyper competitive about theater. But here's Gina being competitive about theater and they're like, wow, I can't believe you're being 1.0. Like, super competitive.
What? It's just wild. I mean, you're in an environment that inherently has competitiveness in it. So it doesn't make sense to me. It's not like you're getting together to bake cookies for like a sale or something. You're like, wow, Gee, they're being so competitive about this, like something that doesn't require being competitive, but it's like you're being competitive for an actual reason, like, and that's OK. That's part of this. Also, it's great for the
documentary, that too. I know, like there's a lot of people who don't like Gina, but I I say I just feel like I see her more. Also, I mean, I paid attention to her more since she was the only actor that I knew coming into the show. But I like her in Season 4, even though she's. I know she's out there with some of the things that she gets. But back to she's. Like, actually the lead in season four. So you're supposed to care about her.
And she, like, has more time and more focus in general, 'cause she, like, went from background to, like, being the lead. Like, if you go from season one to season four. So like, yeah, like, it's designed to get to know her more, 'cause she's like, taking over the poll that Olivia Rodrigo left, you know? So yeah, they definitely made her like starting in Season 3 they're like, OK, you are the new Olivia, right? Which that I that's what I don't
like. Whereas I was like let Gita just be Gita. I was like, when she's getting competitive again, I'm like good. Go like guess be competitive, be interesting. But they they tried to make her into Nini and I'm like, why like let her be her own thing. It's annoying. Like they gave her Ricky. Like they just like they're just like, it's OK you're just gonna, you know. Again, let her be single. Why did she need a? Boyfriend. Yeah, you know what? We needed more. Singleness.
Yes. Like, let her be single and figure who shit out. Like since the two weeks with AJ, AJ didn't work out. It just drives me crazy. You in the two weeks. It's just ridiculous and far fetched and they just, it was just very much they were trying to break them up because they wanted her to be the new Nene and like needed to put her with Ricky because Ricky can't be single either. Otherwise, what is the show? So I was just like, who cares like waiting for EJ and Ricky to
be together, right? I go do that. Let leave Gina alone. Let Gina just be Gina because it's like she spends all this season crying over a boy and it's like, I don't want to see this. Yeah, OK, let's let's finish off her arc. That's why I don't talk about Gina. I have problems with her stuff. But This is why there's two of us. We both like different things, and we both see different things. And I try to see that's pretty fun. You do? I try. You know, it gets me into trouble sometimes.
I get, you get, yeah, whatever. So Gina's trying to figure out how to balance. Like this balance of herself and she was trying to figure out what she wanted. And yes, she should have given EJ more room since he had a lot going on that summer 2 weeks. Two weeks. It wasn't the whole summer or just two weeks.
But she saw that what the next year would be like and since he would be in college and she would still be in high school and she didn't want that to be her relationship like her always just following him around and him not having time for her, which I don't think is unfair to say. I don't think that's unfair, But then her plot becomes that with Ricky and it's like, yeah, he's closer, but she has that exact experience. So it's like she was destined
for this. They just wanted her with Ricky, that's all. That's just the right. But she like, she grows enough to understand that, oh, I'm now in E JS because she has a scene where she's like, I ended my relationship because this is not what I wanted and now I'm in E JS place and Ricky's in my. So like, she understands what Ricky is feeling and I feel like she feels a little guilty for breaking up with EJ. Yeah, she learned empathy at E JS expense. That's what happened.
That's the plot. But that is how you grow. It's true. We learned that two weeks aren't everything. Two weeks aren't real life. But because she knows what Ricky's feeling, she does make it a point to like, try to spend time with Ricky. Like, that's why she gets Quinn to somehow superhumanly film half this movie in one day. Like, what the Did they finish this movie a month ahead of schedule? Like, what the hell? Like, I don't understand.
But anyway, that doesn't matter. So she is trying to understand Ricky more. Which, you know what? I don't think Ricky ever tries to understand that. I mean, he did by the end understand that Gina needed to do these things, which is some growth from him. Great. I just think EJ was better for her than Ricky and it drives me crazy. You are a Portwell fan. I don't care. I just think she is a much more mature person than Ricky. EJ is a much more mature person. They made a better.
Well, he matured over the show the first season. I would not put them together correct. Because they grew, right. So yes, in season three beyond, they make more sense than Ricky and it just drives me nuts that she has, she has that plot line anyway and it it was just very clear the writers were trying to put her together with Ricky because she's the new Nini and apparently your own thing, OK?
That's me crazy. Something else really quickly about this her being with Ricky. So apparently in the first season, in the hat she gives him, it says I love you too, Ricky. First of all, how has Ricky not seen that tag this entire time and who they talk about her not wanting to say it first. So like, I feel like that was added in later and it it was, it was just really weird. It was weird. It was weird because then why did she go with EJ like she was talking to EJ that same season.
OK, Teenagers, man. I don't understand them. I don't understand them when I was one. Right. It's Disney magic. We'll just track it up to that. OK, OK, but but now we can move on. I think my favorite episode, which is the Halloween episode. Let's get to the gay stuff. So usually I do not like Halloween episodes. Why? I don't know. I don't know what it is. I don't. Because, like, I mostly see, like, the Disney ones. So, like, the Disney ones are pretty stupid.
That makes sense. Like growing up like that's also I yeah, I just don't like, I wasn't raised to really like Halloween. So it's just not something that like, I'm into and they always like, try to be scary, but they're never scary and it's it. Shows, though, it's just an opportunity for the character to, like, explore things they're afraid of doing, 'cause they can hide behind the costume.
So usually something big will happen in that episode that the character wouldn't normally do. So they're fun because you get the characters to get out of their comfort zones. So that's why I like them. And that's what basically happens here. So, like, it's a great episode. Yes, because Halloween's the best. Like. OK, so I have already.
Gushed about this episode slash 1 scene in particular, but because there's most likely people who have not seen our LGBTQ Ships episodes, go watch those after this if you haven't. I get to do it all over again and I'm so excited now. I actually know what you're talking about, you know. So glad for OK, so bring it. The orange is like, sitting there watching me do this. So, like this excited explaining, trying to explain what this show's about and what
this scene was. But it's so hard when you're the one who knows what's going on. OK, so this episode is all about Madeleine pining, OK? That's not the only thing. That's what I like. This episode also makes me laugh so much, especially when Ashlynn pulls out so she has these tarot cards from her psychic. She pulls out the death card and Carlos does present she's stressed as death. He's upset. He laughs so much.
OK, so in order for this episode not to go on for four hours because it's already an hour, we've got so much to go. Sorry, we're just gonna skip to the best scene that I this is my favorite thing out of the entire show. So Maddox is gearing up to scare everyone because she is still upset that she didn't get to do the woman in the woods scare because Jet ruined everything. So Jet is trying to help her make this one even better. Like, yeah, you shipped Jet.
Yeah, so while Ashlyn is reading these tarot cards, Maddox pretends to be electrocuted. So it's just the lights flicker. You see her with like, fog smoke coming off of her head or something. It's. Pretty intense and. Then she just falls over. Oh my God, I'm sorry. I'm trying to get through this because I could just see it in my head again, Ricky says. What do we do? Ashlyn gets off and says someone called an ambulance runs over to Maddox and yells, I'll give her
mouth to mouth as a friend. It's just the line delivery. Julia Lester kills that line. Good comedic. He has very good comedic timing for sure. Just the way she yells as a friend. Like she turns to everyone and makes sure that they know it's
just as a friend. But also like, again, like this is the again, this is the classic Halloween shit because it's a character doing something they wouldn't normally do, which, yeah, obviously the electrocution thing, but it's like there is no hesitation of just like feelings on display from Ashley. It's just immediate, like just she's acting as she normally wouldn't in other circumstances. So kudos love it. Oh, she did. Great in this episode. I mean, in every episode, but
like, so once. So Ashlyn's about to give her mouth to mouth and then Maddox says Boo. And this poor girl looks so distraught afterwards and probably embarrassed because it was just a joke. And she's like, well, one, there's disappointment, 'cause she didn't get to kiss her and like 2 like she was like so in it and like trying to save her. So I just her little heart can't take it right now. No, literally.
I think it's because I I think she also like perhaps this too was I didn't realize how much you meant to me moment and like until this just happened because like she freaked the fuck out like like you would if your wife was dying. Like she's like, holy shit, I'm about to lose my partner of 20 years. Like that's how she behaved in this scene and then to have it be a joke. I think she's like, holy fuck, I can't believe I just reacted like that. I think that's also part of it.
It's not just that I'm embarrassed How bare. How dare you make fun of, like, make this a joke? I think she was like, wow, that was my reaction to this. I did not expect myself to do this. It's the magic of Halloween. So I think. That makes sense. Yeah, exactly. So I think a lot. Her face where she's just like staring into space, it's just like, wow, I can't believe I just did that. Like, that was my first
reaction. Was freaking the fuck out immediately like and she's like clearly not okay. Like after it happens. Like she doesn't calm and she's very rattled by, like her reaction and the way she felt and the moment. People notice that, like, she looks like she's about to cry. Right. And because she's like, I almost just lost, I thought, I like. Even though it was fake. She's like, I felt like I was
losing you for real. And, like, the feelings are real despite the circumstance being a ruse, you know? So like, she still has those feelings, like, and that's why they point that out. They're like, are you OK, 'cause no, she's not OK. The feeling she's having is really real in this moment and I don't think she expected it to get real like that and to feel this way and doesn't know what to do with that. It's about time, though, that she realizes it. You know what?
Fucked up. Way to figure it out. But yeah, like it really is. It's fucked up. Like that's terrifying to like. It's a roller coaster for her in this episode. Yes. So later Ashlyn is alone in Gina's attic and she's working on a song which, you know, also kind of doesn't make sense to me because why is she working on a song that's not in her house? And she has a piano, 'cause I don't think Gina has a piano. Does Gina have a piano? I don't think we've ever seen
one piano. Who the fuck knows? So of course no one else is up there, but Max comes up. Obviously not. No one in Gina's bedroom is. Is it I? It looks like her bedroom, but then she says attic, but and where's her bed? 'Cause I know her bed is usually there, so like, I'm really confused. The bed was still there. Or I. Don't know? No, the bed's not there. She moved it for whatever this is. Why were they doing this in the attic? They just. Decided. Everything.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. OK, so Maddie's comes in and is like picking up cups or something. I also don't know why she's doing that. I mean, I guess she wants to be a good guest or something. She's trying. To hang out with Ashlyn? And is Loki just lingering, pretending to tidy? That's what's happening. OK, see, Theora's here because she reads more into things and I'm just see what's going on actually. You have to like think about the motivation like. I'm working on it.
Motivation. She's trying to be near her and find an excuse, so she's like, I guess I'll tidy and make small talk with you and that's basically what happens. This whole scene is just really cute. Yes. And I I also love how she reacts when Ashton's like and I think Emmy might have a crush on your brother. And I mean, I mean looks too way too little for. It no, I'm like this has got to be illegal in some states like get out of here with us, but. They never pursue that. Thank God.
I don't want to see it. But Ashlynn tells Maddox that she's working on a song for Emmy and Jett. Since I play Chad and Taylor and Maddox asked to hear it, and Ashlyn says as if you promise you don't judge me. Maddox's response is, oh, Ash, you know I can't do that. Judging people is my specialty, which I feel like she doesn't actually judge people. No, I feel like this was like playful banter because at this point you have to think like the two of them have been texting like crazy, right?
And so you do get to know people through text. And they're, she was like laughing at the phone. So obviously, like, Maddox was like doing jokes like this. So I think she understands, like, and Ashley understands Maddox's sense of humor. And that's what this was.
This was just like, I'm like, like, I'm texting you like, I'm just making jokes with you like, 'cause I'm sure she's like has like, you know, Ashley has sent her stuff where she's like, oh, I'm doing something creative or whatever. And Maddox did this kind of, like nagging shit that she's doing. Now this is obviously, this is like lesbian flirting, what I want. But like, I think she knows her well enough to understand that she's joking to make her comfortable again, 'cause like,
sharing your art's a big deal. Like, you know, that's something very personal and. This is just to. Ease her into doing it. That's what this is, I love. Talking to you about stuff Theora. Anyway, that's why we see her this. Scene is also cute and there's a lot going on in this scene. Like that's fun and not annoying. Well, it gets annoying at the end for external reasons. We'll get there. We'll get there.
So Maddox ends up joining Ashlyn when she's singing, because of course, everyone magically knows songs and dances in the musical world, but you just have to get over that fact. You just. Yes, that's true. And it's really annoying. But here they they did it well. Where like, she basically like as Ashlyn's cause Ashlyn knows it, 'cause she wrote it and so she's like doing it.
And then like, Maddox is clearly like paying attention, listening, and then she picks the notebook up and kind of like reads ahead. So she's like, yeah, it's better natural. Yeah, 'cause she's like, OK, Like, as somebody who like does theater also like, I understand how to like improv this. Basically, it's not like they're out in the world, just doing whatever. Like this felt more like how that scene should go. Or she's like, OK, I have your notes with the words.
I can hear your melody, I hear what you're doing. And so she kind of plays off of her. It's like an improv. Man, I wish I had that talent. Some people really do have the improv capability of doing that and I'm just like, yes. Have you ever seen the improv dancing? It's wild. Like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like people who've never danced together just improv amazing dances. This reminded me of that. It felt more natural and like an
improv scenario. Not like a we're bursting at the song because we're Disney princesses kind of thing. Like, yeah, so this felt good. This, this scene was just, I mean the whole episode I feel like is really good. But like this, their moments in this episode were just so well done. Yes, and. A finally, but B it was also like, yes, executed and well thought out for the two who these two actually are. So I like, I like enjoyed it. Also love the lighting in this
room. There's also a lot of candles for some reason, but. Well, I guess Halloween spookiness. Yeah. OK, it's less weird than when Ricky was by himself with the the same amount of candles and a piano. Like, he did that for himself. This is Halloween. This one does make. You're supposed to have candles and like, you see, like, some of them look like pumpkins and there's like, you know, orange lights, 'cause it's a Halloween
party, it makes more sense. It's like they stumbled into this little haven that they're having versus like, Ricky lit a bunch of candles so he can sing a dramatic AF song. I can feel that was staged. This was like, they kind of fell into this little bubble. So that's what I mean.
Like everything about the way this scene was set up feels more like a natural thing that's happening and not like a manufactured thing, which a lot of the stuff sometimes feels like that in shows where there's like they break out into song, you know? Yeah. And so, like it. It feels like they are having a moment. Because they are. They're just so cute and not cute when they're singing.
You could see on Ashton's face, just like she realizes just how much so we you brought up earlier that she realized when she. She already knew girl but. Yeah, but you know in this thing like her singing like song is very powerful for people in this musical theater world, like for example, just in real life. So I found out yesterday that Carlos and Seb are dating in real life and they've been embarrassed in season one. And so Frankie plays.
Carlos said that he knew that he was a goner and was gonna have like a huge crush on Joe, who plays Seb when he was playing the piano and was doing musical theater songs in between scenes. So music is just a huge thing. So they're really connecting in this moment. And you see on Ashlyn's face, like, just how much like she wants her. Like, I just, well, I love Julie. Also, isn't the song about feelings between two people?
So it's like she's put her heart and soul into a song that's about two people, like, expressing feelings about each other. But it's like about them, like not knowing how they feel. It's just like I just want you like that's it. Right. Because I think that like that didn't sink in until she had a heart attack 5 minutes ago when she thought that X was dying, like. And now it's like, OK, she's
this is her. This is Ashlyn admitting to herself by singing this out loud that like, yeah, this is real. I actually like you. That's what this isn't that. It's like on the nose. But like in combination with the the sequence of, like, the scare thing that she freaks the fuck out is sitting with those panicking feelings that she didn't realize she was gonna have. It's like, OK, I can't deny this anymore. Like, yeah, it's like I don't want you, like a best friend.
She's gonna start singing dress from Taylor Swift in 5 minutes, 'cause it's like, yeah, it's like, OK, I get this and I understand now. That is the gayest song ever. I don't think I've ever heard that song. I mean, I I think you played it in that one. Yes, I definitely. I'm sorry. I played it for you. I'm. Slowly learning OK. Trying to Swiftify Caitlyn. It's working. I'm just there's too much music
to know. There's a Taylor Swift song for everything, That's what I'm saying, and like it this applies. There is and I need your help with finding one to fit a certain thing. Later on it no worries, cool challenge. Taylor Swift episode Vault Edition coming eventually. Eventually, Someday. Someday. Anyway, before I start singing zombies, side note for this scene, if you look at the piano, it is not plugged in and I'm
pretty. Sure. I was like trying to look at like pianos and see if like maybe there's like stuff that like gets charged or stuff. Where is it? It has to be plugged in. And it's not like a battery powered piano, 'cause I had what keyboard like that, where you could do batteries or plug it in, Yeah, but I don't know, this was like. I don't know 20 years ago, I have no idea. But it just so I was like I have a screenshot of it that I'm looking at right now. It is not plugged in.
It's. It's not and you clearly see that, but also I was trying to. Figure Well, obviously that was a choice because at one point Maddox like circles the piano. So like the bitch would have tripped and then died for real, so that had a different ending. So we can't do that, obviously. Or not killing the lesbian? No. And like if she circled the other way, it wouldn't be romantic. So like, I understand that from like a choreography directing choice.
But yeah, plug in your pianos PSA if they need to be plugged in. But Caitlin explain what happens in the scene so. I have screenshots in front of me and it's giving me all the feelings right now. So. Explain it so. So Ashley plays the song, and then what happens on the piano that's not plugged in? And then what happens? Explain it. Let's relive it. So as you mentioned, Maddox comes over and sits next to her to sing the harmonies and they just keep staring at each other
and Ashley just keeps like shit. I really, really like this girl. And you know, Maddox is just like, Oh my God, I know I like this girl since last season. And then they get closer and closer and at the end they're about to kiss and they're like this far apart. I I don't know how to. Inches. Apart, inches apart they are. Breathing each other in. Let's just say that and there's looks of finally on everybody's face. And Maddox is caressing, of course, 'cause it's what always
happens with. Women, Caitlin, there's always face caressing. If it's not face caressing, is it queer women? Like, if there has to be face caressing, it just has to be. And Maddox as a lesbian knows this. She's like, well, obviously you're not gonna understand this unless I touch your face. That's the universal side of. I like you as not a friend. And Ashley's like, yes, I get it. Just do it already. Ashley, what happens? Ashley's letting Maddox come to her.
It's like, she's Maddox. Do she's? Like girl do it. Come on, listen to the music. Do it. But of course we get the window opening right before they kiss and pumpkin dude hunters. And you know what? Why pumpkin dude? We could have had Magdalene in episode 4 if you would just go away. Honestly though, when they get together, it's really cute and I prefer this anyway. It doesn't matter. This is the it's mutual and we both know it now. Good.
Do they know it? No 'cause I. Don't think they do. Yes, they do. I mean, they do. You don't do. This Caitlyn, you don't do the the face caressing. Having Caitlyn, that is the confirmation that this is mutual. But, like, it pisses me off. I I It's not like pisses me off, 'cause like I understand their whole journey. It's just because it's the last season and they only get together at the end.
Spoiler alert that like, there was 4 episodes in between and I just want them together and I want the cuteness. And there's not enough cuteness, It's just for ventilating. Yeah, we're greedy bitches. We want it all. But like, I don't trust the show. If they would have gotten together sooner, they would have broken them up. And like, so I'm just like, it's fine. They get together, they're together, and it ends with them together.
Rather than like whatever the fuck happened with Big Red at the end of season three, which was absurd, Like I was like they're just wanting to get to break them off, like they're together. It's fine. It's fine. All good. We win. OK, but during that song there is another scene that we have to talk about. So. God yeah. Carlos is walking outside and this knight in shining armor comes up and Carlos tells them that they ran out of candy like
hours ago. Apparently the signage really worked with going to the because because they made them go to the attic to trick or treat and that makes no. That's what I'm saying. It's like, OK, this was a choice of just like, I don't want to make another set. Everything's happening in the attic, which is insane. Who lets strangers come through your house up? Unless the bottom of the house was like a haunted house and the kids had to go through the haunted.
Some people are like, love Halloween and do shit like that. That's not the vibe I'm getting here. It was just go to Gina's room. She'll do the trick. Or you really think Gina's mother would, like, go all out and make a haunted house? No, they don't have time for their shit. Gina doesn't have time for it. No. Exactly. So this was what a choice this was to be like go to my attic for candy. It was the. Most randomest part of the besides pumpkin dude.
Like, I mean, pumpkin dude is the reason for it. But I agree. But having this shit in the attic was a choice. And I think they're just like, we don't want to make another set. This is Gina's house. It's the. Attic, man. We should have just gone back to Ashland's house. That's where everything. Happened. I'm surprised. This is but no, Maddox would have been too close like they couldn't. They couldn't be that close into
Ashland safe space. Also, I'm surprised this didn't happen at the high school, because everything happens at the high school. Why wasn't this in the choir room? Like, you know how shows do that where they're just like, we'll just hang out at school. I'm surprised. I'm honestly just surprised they didn't do that. But here we are. It's fine. It's whatever they do the. Party's outside of school, though. I know, but like a lot of the time, like schools a lot of
times give out candy and shit. So, like, I'm just surprised they didn't do it because having it in an attic was weird choice that. Means yeah. Anyway, so who's the knight? Caitlyn. It's EB. It's EB. So 7 Carlos have a chat and we find out that the writers did Seb really dirty. I don't this was the most out of character thing that happens on the show.
So the whole drama with them is that the documentary was cut to make it look like Carlos was hooking up with some rando, which the Rando's the pumpkin guy and he's like listening to all of this. It's. Which is weird. I'm like, who are you? I forgot about all of this. So.
But the real truth is that SAB was UPS like distancing himself from Carlos because during the two weeks he kissed somebody else and actually cheated on Carlos, which doesn't make any sense based on who Seb is as a character. Like that doesn't make any fucking like. And when I say they like to insert relationship drama just to have drama, this is the biggest example of that, like. This was so unnecessary. Like why is Seb a cheater? Like in what? Like what?
But it's not even just that. What got me is that Seb wouldn't talk to Carlos because he thinks he cheated on him. So like, they and he made this whole big thing about it. Like that's not what Seb would do. No. It's like. No, no, no Seb. Seb wouldn't cheat on Carlos #1
#2 like. The way he's behaving is like a person who basically is doesn't take responsibility for what they did, but it's like projecting it all onto the other person, which is not Seb. Also and like you can argue that while he can't lie, so if he interacted with Carlos, then like what he did would come out and like he's not ready to talk about that. Obviously all of this doesn't make any sense for like them. I'm like, why are we here? This is so weird. This felt very forced to be like
a very forced. Plot. It was I yeah, I basically just did block them out this season because it's this storyline is really annoying. Like I'm I'm here for Madeleine this season because you know, they get better shit. But Seb tries to play him cheating off and say it didn't mean anything and he continues to only talk about his feelings and how how it has made him feel distraught, but he literally gives Carlos zero time to process it. Like Carlos sees like you just
broke his world. Like all he's been trying to do is talk to you and make sure you are OK and you're you're only caring about yourself and that is not what Zed would do. No, like you said. That all of this was super out of character like all of it. It just they the writers forced this in there and this felt really for like this is a such an outer and then who said cheats with is also insane like the whole thing. It's just this is like soap opera drama, like, yeah. And.
OK, so Speaking of that, let's go on to the next scene, which I have titled The World's Most Beautiful Breakup. Like, I wish this was the conversation they had at the end of Season 3. Like. Yes. It should have been. Why was this not the conversation? Because their conversation at the end of season three was big. Red's like, you're it. You're the perfect girl for me. You're my forever. I wanna marry you someday. But and then this is where we're at.
But actually, I think that he's about to break up with her and she's like, I I can I'm. Probably thinking it, Ashland is also hoping that Big Red will break up with her, 'cause she just realized she has crushes at all these women and she's like, OK, great. But then he tells her the complete opposite. He's like, no, you're the you're the perfect person for me. We're gonna get married someday. It's gonna be great. And then they when they interact next in this season, they're breaking up.
Like, why was that there? It's just so weird. Oh, so it's important to note that he has already done what we're about to talk about when he did that speech to Ashland. Yeah. None of this makes sense. No it doesn't. This is this is out of character for him too. Like, yeah, because they rubbed them out of the No, no. Seb is No, Seb is not a main character in this season. So like, they got rid of Seb and Big Red last season. Kind of. Mostly, Yeah. Yeah, they got rid of them.
They. Didn't go to camp, so they were. Out. And then they forgot who they were like the writers didn't like. This feels like Glee or Glee would just forget who characters are and write stuff. And you're like, what am I watching? This is a Glee moment. That's what it is. At least they try to explain where they were, whereas in Glee season four, people didn't. Big Red's just in. Egypt for some, Yeah. OK. That one was weird. I I understand. I don't understand why he went.
This was Cairo. I they put no thought into this. This is my no, this was like, we have to. Carlos and Saba been doing too good for too long. Let's throw some drama in there. And then I don't know what the hell this was all about. I think they're like going for like the Ashland Maddox thing and they're like, well, Big Red's solo factor because basically he was like, I'm gonna marry you one day. So we gotta end this.
I don't know. They threw darts out of like a on a globe and like he was in Egypt. I don't know. Sure, whatever. Let's not explain that. I do want to talk to a writer, not not to be like, why'd you do that? Was like, I just want to, like, know what the thought process was. It's not. It was a choice. And they made that choices. These were choices. But we haven't actually talked about what this is. So in the next episode after the Halloween episode, Big Red shows up randomly.
Randomly. OK, he's just randomly back from Cairo and Ashlyn finally has an honest conversation with him, like she's not just letting him talk. And unfortunately, Big Red admits that he was the one Seb cheated with. So it this was after Seb mentioned something. So it like seems like he was only going to mention it because Seb had said something. Again, if Seb never said anything he might not have like, I don't know, but. Maybe. But also like he hasn't been in an episode since.
So like when And like it's not something you tell her. Like OK, she also was waiting to tell him something huge about herself but was like I can't and she says it at the end. I can't do this over a text. He wasn't going to do this over a text either. So like yeah, maybe it reads that way because of the sequence of like we the viewers find out about Seb first, then about this. But I think it was a this was an in person conversation we have to have and I was literally in Egypt.
Yes, but I hate that Big Red tries to act cute and say surprise when, like Ashlyn says, like you're the one sub cheated with. But boy, cheating is not cute. So no. And Ashlyn, I mean, luckily she's not affected by it because, you know, she's got her own shit going on. Well, she's been emotionally, we never get into this, but she's been emotionally cheating on him. Yeah, since camp. So let's have. I have something about that. And we never get into that. So that is also a form of
cheating. Yeah. And they're like, we're just growing apart. Like and I I wrote down that she really should have broken up with him in the finale of last season. Like that should have been. Why was that not the conversation there? That was also. How he says that they kiss ish. How do you kiss ish? Like a? Peck probably. Isn't that still a kiss? I don't know. There's different kinds of kisses.
There's like romantic, like, OK, what Maddox and Ashlyn were about to do in the other episode was gonna be more than like the a kiss kiss versus like a PEC kind of thing. That's not what they were about to do.
So there's, there's, there's. Kisses with emotions involved and then they're just like, let me explore this and I feel like that's what he was they were kind of doing, which doesn't makes it makes sense for Big Red but it doesn't exploring his bisexuality but it doesn't make sense for Seb at all. Like, yeah, he was like, I guess lonely cause the two weeks happened the two weeks. It's so stupid. It was 2 weeks. Oh my God. If your boyfriend goes to camp for two weeks and you can't hold
it together, what are you doing? Like, maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship anyway. So, like, he's it could have been like, I was lonely, he was there. Like, it doesn't actually mean anything. It was just like. It's still cheating. Yes, but like their thing is like, I don't wanna. I wasn't trying to break them up to get him. It was just it happened, which like shit happens when you have emotions. Like, it's. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.
It's just like shit happens and sometimes it means something and sometimes it doesn't actually mean anything to you, the person doing it. Then after that, Big Red tells her that it's his by origin story and he apologizes.
But this is the perfect opportunity for Ashlyn to open up about how she had a crush on Val last summer and I. She doesn't actually, like, come out and tell him she like, she has to. She makes him figure it out himself, 'cause she's like, do you remember Val from camp last summer? And he's like, yeah, she was pretty. And Ashlyn responds with Yeah, she was. And then so Big Red figures out that, oh, she likes. Her. Yes. The way that I no you.
You get what I mean? Yes, we are both bisexual. Great. And then she tells him that she felt it again when she almost kissed Maddox, which she basically just admitted to cheating on him as well. Well, she didn't kiss him so, or kiss her so. But if she had, wouldn't that have been cheating? And would you have been as mad at Ashlyn as you are at Big Red
and Seb? But their conversation obviously ends fine because they both basically cheated on each other and knew they were growing apart like. I don't know like. Something happens in Cairo, I guess. And he's just like, yeah, we're growing apart. It's fine. I just hate that the 180, like, because the last time they were together, it was a we're end game. And then like now he's like, yeah, let's break up. Like all this. Whatever happened off screen
completely changed everything. It's very weird. I don't understand this. I don't understand why they weren't just broken up to begin with. And he comes back and they have the conversation with her like, yay, we have this in common. But cool, there's closure now with Big Red. Great and good for him by King Red. Like, good for you.
But after that, Ashlynn asks if they just had the most beautiful breakup in history and before, I would have agreed cause like it was very mutual and stuff, but but doing episodes like this makes me really think about what's going on. And I saw things from other people who but made me understand, yeah, they ended up fine, but they created a crappy situation for other people. So like, yeah, they're fine, But the other relationship that is affected by this is crap right
now. Yeah, and they were already growing apart. So like, no, no, this is not. Also like they were mutually cheating on each other, so like, yeah. Like which? Like, again, like, he kissed somebody else. And then she was very much emotionally cheating with Maddox and almost physically cheating. So, like, they have been broke. So basically they were just admitting, yeah, we ended a while ago, That's what they were admitting here. And they're like, no hard feelings because I found some, I
found other people. You're looking at other people like, great, let's just be friends. Like, that part was mutual. But like, the situation is fine, is fucked. And you're right, there's collateral damage that isn't really like, it's just like, OK, I guess those other people are going to be upset.
But I want to talk about, like our your opinions on the cheating between Seb and Big Red, like those characters, because I didn't think too much about it until someone else said something and it's a totally valid concern that they brought up. So I wanted to make sure that we talked about it. So I saw some people say that it should not like if Zeb was going to cheat, it should not have been with Big Red because of the stereotype that people who sexual are cheaters and can't be trusted.
Which is why some people won't even date someone who is bi, which is also. Bullshit. Yes, and you're By doing this, and also by not breaking up Big Red and Ashlyn in Season 3, their writers made both Big Red and Ashlynn stereotypes because they were both cheating on each other with people of the opposite gender to. Figure out their identity as. Well, which is pretty fucked up if you think about it. Now had they broken up and Seb cheats with which Seb cheating is just ridiculous.
But if Seb's cheating with Big Red? Fine there, he's single, then that doesn't make him a bi stereotype. It's whatever. And then Ashlyn and Maddox's stuff is OK because, I mean, Maddox had a girlfriend, which is not great, but like, it's she's not a stereotype anymore. But they turned everybody into stereotypes by making these weird choices here. So yeah, I agree. I think that was very bad. I think having Sub cheat was stupid to begin with.
Yeah. But they're like, they're discrediting the progress that they've made with these queer characters, Like they're basically throwing stuff out. And I agree. After making points to be like with the Carlos and the body type issues that he has like with the the gay men stereotypes then to do this and throw the the BI character or something, the bus was pretty fucked. Like yeah, totally agree. That's a very excellent point.
Also sub avoiding Carlos and saying it is because of Carlos cheating on him is very messed up and it hurts Carlos more than even what Subb did because like Carlos is now like he was gaslighting him into like thinking that it's his fault. Correct. He was gaslighting him. But people do that. Like when people are scared, like it's it's scarier to like, admit you're the failure than like harm another person. Like people do that. That is a part of human nature. That's super fucked.
Like, that's realistic. It's shitty, but it's realistic. So I I see that, but I don't see that from that character that they set up like I can see EJ doing that like as a as a form of self preservation in a scenario. But like Seb, the guy who can't lie like this whole thing was, so absolutely cannot lie. We've. Seen that many times in the. Show it's a joke. Ongoing joke. So, like, none of that. That's what I mean. Like, this was so out of all of this was out of character and ridiculous.
Like what? No. But yeah, he was gaslighting him. The whole thing like this storyline that they don't even get into really until episode 4, like just to mention it, it it's just too much for eight episodes because cheating is messy. And I do agree that is way more complicated than what is actually shown And and it it like basically showed that it's on the other person to forgive the cheater so that the relationship can be OK and like they did it so quickly as well
with a song. I mean, it's gonna be a song. But like it they should have. They should have like taken a break. I think that Carlos should have been like, maybe in time we can get past it, but right now I just need to be on my own. And I think that would have been better, but then people would be pissed that Seppalos isn't together. So I mean, and then I don't know if they even thought about the Ashland, it was actually cheating as well, because I at least I personally consider
emotional cheating cheating. If you're talking to someone and you have feelings for them, that is cheating they. Almost kissed like they were. I know about to like actually go into Seb in Big Red territory. So like it is clearly that was just gonna the the pumpkin didn't walk in then like all the cheating would have possibly happened. So like the seven and Big Red thing there's no emotional
cheating there. It was just a heat of the moment thing versus like the Ashley Maddox thing is worse. It's like there is like deep feelings there. It's worse. Selfishly, I, I I don't mind though, because we've got some cute scenes about the Jupiter that is fully selfish and like should not have been done in real life. Yes, correct. They should have broken up Big Red and Ashland in season three and we wouldn't even be here with this.
Again, it's a it's a very they do soap opera relationship drama, just 'cause then that becomes the plot point for these characters. Like, they could have been doing so many other things. Like Maddox could have been like talking to Ashlyn about her working on the movie and shit. And we could have had real conversations with these characters and like, Seb and Carlos could have been having real conversations about stuff. But no, we have to focus on whatever this is. It's ridiculous.
And like, I just it just it's manufactured drama and I hate it when they do this shit. It's just dumb. And with that, we've been big gay energy. If you like this episode, check out all our other episodes on whatever you're using to listen right now. If you're listening on Apple, we'd really appreciate it if you left us a review, no matter how brief. It helps us get into Apple's algorithm to reach a wider
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