Hello and welcome to Big Gay Energy. I'm Caitlin. And I'm Fiora. Come along with us while we dive into the fun and nuances of queer media. Representation matters. And we're here to talk about it. Cheers, queers. This month for Big Gay Book Club, we've read the newly released novel Dear Wendy, and we are super lucky to have the author and JAO joining our discussion. Welcome to the podcast, Anne. Well, thank you for having me.
I've done that times as well. You can keep that in if you want to. Welcome to my my childhood bedroom. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. OK, so Dear Wendy is set in. I've meant to look this up. Wellesley. OK, I just wanted to make sure. Yeah. So dear Wendy is set in Wellesley College and follows Sophie and Joe as they become friends while unknowingly engage in an online rivalry over their relationship advice personas Wendy and Wanda. What was the inspiration for
this story? Oh, I was inspired by a lot of things when I came up with the idea for it. I had recently read this book called Perfect on Paper by Sophie Gonzalez, which is about this girl who runs like this love advice giving scheme out of an empty locker in her high school. And I had gotten the idea of like an A row ace person writing love advice. Obviously not out of an empty locker.
But I was also inspired by these Instagram accounts that are run by various Wellesley College students that just to do various wacky zany things. There was one that just posted pictures of Canadian geese that were on campus. There was one that posted pictures of the soup that they had at dining halls. One in particular that really inspired Dear Wendy was a Crush Confessions account where people just submitted people that they liked.
Usually the Crush Confessions were not very serious, they were mostly from people's friends trying to hype them up. But that was where I got my inspiration from. That's awesome. Is there that many different types of soups at the college? Oh no, there's not very many. It's all like I didn't can. Got it. So does that mean the geese watching club was real? Because that was mentioned in the book.
Yes. So in the book there is a geese watching club started by an upperclassman that Sophie knows. It is not based on any real clubs at Wellesley unfortunately we do have some odd clubs. I have a friend who started a juggling club and when she told me about it, I thought that she was lying to me. I thought she was doing a bit because I was like, what do you mean that you've been juggling with an old woman named Ellen for the last several months? That sentence in general is so funny I.
Love that so much? Yeah, but we do have many, many, many geese on campus. I just love how specific that club is though. It's just it's not bird watching, it's just just the geese. Mm hmm. Mm hmm, the URL would join it. I would. I like birds though. I found that really interesting. OK, so we as as Caitlyn mentioned, the two main characters, their online personas are Wendy and Wanda, and there's and there's some differences between the two. So would you consider yourself
more of a Wendy or a Wanda? I would consider myself a mix of both. I think that most of the time I am a Wanda who wants to be a Wendy. A lot of I think that my public persona and the the face that I put out for my acquaintances, not necessarily my close friends, is that of a Wendy. But when you get down to it, like I do procrastinate and I do slack on a lot of things, and hey, I'm not 100% on top of everything all the time, but I I wanna be and I I try to be. I feel that.
Yeah, that's very really an old answer. I love that. In the book, I believe Sophie's rattling off all these things that they're that she's gonna do. And Joe was like, are you a Virgo? And I felt so-called out by that because I am a Virgo and that would definitely be something I would do. But anyway, who would you choose to ask for advice, Wendy or Wanda?
And what would you ask? Well, I feel like I am not the type of person to need advice on most things, and so I'd probably ask something silly to Wanda because I'd like to get a laugh out of it. But I I do think there have been a couple of times in my life where I could have used advice from Wendy, from Dear Wendy, but only in very, very specific situations and not the types of questions that Wendy usually answers, because they're usually about romantic relationships.
And I've not had any sort of experience that would require me asking a question of that sort. But I do think that I would most likely ask a question for Wanda, probably something innocuous like what should I pack for my weekend trip? And then Wanda would be like, why are you asking me this? That is a great answer. I agree. Awanda would just be like, I'm feeling sad and just like stand a random question and just make you smile. I love that. Excuse me.
All right, next question. In the first chapter, Sophie mentions she feels people take her more seriously as Wendy quote because I am a disembodied wall of text instead of a petite Chinese girl who sounds shrill if he tries to raise her voice. Sophie, it seems to be like Sophie's very like, kind of like empowered by her online persona, which she uses throughout the novel to explore her passion for analyzing human relationships.
Why did you choose to have Sophie explore that passion through like Wendy, like online, rather than by, like, observing people in real life? I think that Sophie is just not a A quiet and subtle enough person to to observe silently in real life. I I think that she has a lot of opinions and wants to say them and so that is why she makes this Wendy account. Honestly, that's such a good answer. Like this would be a whole different tone of a book if she was trying to do this in real
life. Yeah. So the novel switches point of view between the two protagonists, Sophie and Joe. Why did you decide to tell the story from both point of views? I thought that if I chose one or the other, that the story would be a little bit more boring because I had ideas for character arcs for both of them
to go through. And a lot of times with, at least in YA contemporary books, when you have a single point of view, it's because that character's arc is the most compelling and the most interesting for you to read. And when you have a dual POV book in YA contemporary at least 'cause that is my field of expertise. Usually the two characters storylines do play off of each other and both captivate the reader an equal amount. Yeah, I think that's that's that's a really good point.
Also, like with the rivalry, I think it was a really excellent choice to like. Yeah, it was. It was fun to to have the reader know more than the characters do at any point in time. It is very fair, I I thought. That the dual point of view was very needed in this. Actually I'm not as used to dual point of view. I'm used to like 1. So having the two, it definitely showed the differences. Yeah, and you and you did a phenomenal job in writing both Joe and and Sophie by making
their like voices distinct. It's particularly like their inner monologues, for example. Like a lot of the time like Sophie seems seems in her head very self assured, which like. Doesn't matter to. Translate outside of her head And then as compared to Joe, who's like just spirals a lot of the times these like dark thoughts and the chest to like or they have to like stop themselves and be like, wait a minute, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, great, slow down.
So for me, like, the way you wrote them also gave me a really good sense of like who they were, which was good to like contrast from chapter to chapter when we switched. So when you're when you're sitting down to kind of like write the two characters, like what kind of subtleties were you trying to get across by like I don't know, like telling the different POV's between the two, especially with like inner
monologues? Oh gosh, I remember there was one pass through that I did where all I did was give Sophie longer paragraphs and Joe shorter paragraphs in their like inner monologues because I think that is a a great way to distinguish their points of view. This was early on during revisions and so that distinction got a little bit lost as I did more and more revisions. But it was there like halfway through the editing process and I think that helped distinguish
their voices pretty well. That Sophie has all these very long strings of thoughts that make a lot of sense and and that Joe is kind of choppy and and jumps all over the place. That that just that. I feel like that still translated in the final novel and also like when you see their online posts like that also matches. I have no place to put this comment.
But just as an aside, I love that you had one of Sophie's like character quirks is that she names her plants and I just wanted to say thank you for that. I found that relatable. I actually don't name my plants. I can't keep them alive for long enough. That's me. Well, I did have a dead plant that I named that just stuck with me because I I was like, I knew I was gonna die, but it was like a work dead plant. So. All right.
Switching off from dead plants, one notable characteristic that Joe and Sophie shares, they're both aromantic and asexual. So from the very like very beginning like the very first page the the characters very clearly are both like identify with those labels when you wrote the book, why did you decide to have them like comfortable in their identity from the beginning versus like have them go on the journey of like
discovering that? Well, actually when I was originally writing the book, I thought about having Joe have like a coming out experience of figuring out their identity, but it just didn't fit in the story very well. There was too much going on in that situation, and I also have read a decent amount of books where and a romantic or asexual character comes to realize that they are such. You know, CB Lee wrote one, not your backup. Alice Osman quite famously has one called loveless.
I believe Taj Hart's Tolstoy also has a character discovering she's asexual. And so I I thought it was maybe a little more interesting for me to write about people who already are sure of their identities. I love that, because that's actually one of Theora's gripes about media in general is like everything focuses on coming out where we just need characters who are sure of themselves but
still figuring it out. And there is so much more to the queer experience than just figuring out that you are queer. Because what happens after you do figure? It out. Yeah, I I really enjoyed that you you made that choice too, because it made the conversations between Joe and Sophie when they really started getting to know each other. And they're like, they're the Spider Man meme and they're like you.
You and like their. Conversations were just so great because that really is the a a big, bigger part of the experience is just like finding community with other people. So I really, I I appreciate that you made that choice with the two of them. It was really great. All right. Next question. So Wellesley is a unique school originated as a women's college, the women's college. The typical student population
is free of cisgendered men. Joe noted quote, Being in an environment where none of your peers are cisgender men really compels you to be your most authentic self, including on social media. If this story took place at a different university like MIT, how would the setting impact
Sophie and Joe's story? Oh gosh, well, MIT specifically, it would be very different because I don't think Sophie and Joe would have been able to to study what they do because it is a STEM education primarily there and Wellesley is a liberal arts education. But just if it was set at, say, a Co Ed liberal arts college, I do feel that the culture of the
school would be quite different. Because with the presence of cisgender men, especially heterosexual cisgender men, there there's a lot more of this like weird social dance that we do around everybody, where those boundaries are kind of broken a little bit when CIS men are not present. Yeah, there's I think it was. I can't remember if it was stuff here Joe, but one of the characters definitely had. I think it was Joe had more like anxiety, like when they were
like, oh, men are around. It's like it like it like instantly, like changed the behavior of the character, not just like externally but also internally. Yeah, I definitely behave very differently when I'm around a large quantity of CIS men than I do when I'm around other women, other queer people. Yeah, it's it is very different. Yeah, that's relatable. I think both Joe and Sophie's perception of that environment, they're they're different.
And I I think I do tend to get more introverted and clam up around big groups of cisgender. It also seemed to just like give the characters just like freedom, kind of like what Joe was saying, just like in all aspects, not just like in person but like online I feel like in which I thought was an interesting like setting to think about in in the YA book specifically when characters are like still figuring themselves out. So I really enjoyed that aspect.
It made it a a very unique thing for the book since I haven't read many like contemporary novels in that kind of setting. So that was really refreshing to to read honestly.
All right, so another aspect of the novel that I really love is the the family aspect when it comes to like, Sophia and Joe, 'cause they both go on this, this journey with their families in terms of, like, gaining acceptance in many different aspects, from like, parents accepting the fact that I chose to go to this liberal arts school from like.
And then there's the queer aspect of, like, what their identity is. In Sophie's case, I thought it was really fascinating that she she learns to accept that her parents may never fully understand her choices which was heartbreaking to read but also like hugely mature for her to like come to like that kind of like conclusion at such a young
age. So how did the differences in the in the parents themselves like the parents life experiences, the dynamics of their families, how did that impact like that journey for both Joe and and Sophie? That's a great question. I think that I wrote Joe's parents to be possibly as accepting as humanly possible and just entirely, fully supportive of everything that she does. Because there are many people with parents who are exactly like that, and they're so
fortunate. And I wanted to have, like, good parents, fully good parents represented in this book because you don't see that a lot. There are so many books where people have absent parents, dead parents, entirely irrelevant parents. But for a lot of people in real life, your your parents are one of your biggest support systems and they really do impact the way that you live your life and
everything. Sophie's parents, I will not say that they are based on my own parents specifically because I think that that is not at all what my parents are actually like, but they are a little bit more complicated and a bit more nuanced as individuals because I I see a lot of complicated parents in in real life, not everybody is going to fully understand the next generation as much as, you know the younger generation hopes for, But you can still have a good
relationship with your parents even if you don't fully understand each other. Yeah, I agree. I like that aspect of of Sophie's journey too, because, you know, there's many different kinds of people who come from many different backgrounds and life experiences and that does ultimately impact, you know, kind of them and the next generation to some degree when they're raising them. So I thought that was really great.
And with Joe too, I thought it was really interesting that you set up Joe's. Joe has queer parents. So I thought it was also interesting that, like, even though they could relate, they couldn't 'cause their journeys are also very different and in a a different time period when things were less accepting, etcetera.
So I thought the way you built all the family dynamics was really fantastic and just and and I agree with you there, there are so many like queer novels in particular where like the parents are either absent or just really like their humanity's stripped a little bit, which not to say that doesn't happen. So I like that you humanize everybody and just through the characters lenses they saw their parents as human also, which I thought was really great.
So something else that is very real and relevant for people is the book touches on a fear for those on the A spec, particularly Joe, who is being, which is being alone forever. How did you approach this topic when writing the novel? Well, I have a bit of a fear of being alone myself. It was much more prominent when I was in high school, when I was at the target demographic for this book, where I was seeing everybody around me getting into these relationships.
And that sort of continued into early college as well, where even my friends who had been perpetually single, like, we're also starting to get into relationships. And I I sort of had FOMO like I I did not want to miss out on this experience of finding like companionship in partnership with another person. But. At the same time, I also knew that that absolutely wasn't for me. Like, it disgusted me to think about it. It was like completely
repulsive. And so trying to balance that thought in my head was very difficult. And I wanted to put that on paper and sort of show other people that, that this is a common experience to have. Like I was not the only one who felt this way. I have friends who are still perpetually single, who are not a romantic or asexual, who also feel this way. It's it's not unique to a spec, people in particular, although it could be more common. I found it relatable.
Yeah. And also like media is media in particular is so hyper focused on the romantic companionship aspect to like be like it's OK to not want that or in any way shape or form. Also a great message. Yes, that that is very true and I I really love that it really did. I mean, the nature of the book focuses on friend relationship because people do not think that is a relationship where it's it still needs the same amount. Of work as a. Romantic relationship.
And it's still I I just love when I forget who realized it first. But one of them was like, I want to be roommates with this person. I want us to do all of these things together. And just that realization was amazing and I just thought it was so cute it. Was Speaking of cute. The other really cute scene that I love is when Theo comes out of Straight to Joe. I've been waiting for the scene
in the media for so long. It was the perfect mix of just like humor and heartwarming and just when did the brilliance come to you to like write the scene? Because it's just it's so good. That scene was actually a pretty late addition to the book. I had Joe. Well, this is kind of spoiling what happens in the book. But I had Joe like going home to her parents and like being really sad and stuff. And I realized it was jumping straight from that to the next scene in the book.
And I was like, I should probably lighten this up a little bit. And I I just thought of having Joe's brother show up and do something funny because he's like not really in the book otherwise. He's just he just kind of exists as a person. And yeah, I I thought that, you know, a a 12 year old who is the child of lesbians, who has an A Roy's older sister would would feel nervous to tell everybody that he's straight. Oh my gosh, yes. Especially when you like
thinking of the age as well. It was just adorable how nervous he was. Yeah, and actually this book came out well after I was finished revising Dear Wendy, But if you've ever read The Year My Life Fell in the Toilet by Jake, Maya Arlo, the main character, is also worried, actually, to tell her mom that she likes girls, 'cause her mom also likes girls and and she's like, Oh my God, she's gonna know exactly what it's like. She's gonna she's gonna think that I'm copying her. Oh.
My gosh, I love that. Oh, my gosh. No, we have done that. OK, so we've talked about so many, like things that we loved in this book. So let's continue that with something we also think is perfect in the dedication which you write quote, and to the people who are about to realize that they're asexual, end or aromantic. After reading this book, you never know, it could be you. On this podcast, we often say
representation matters. In your opinion, how is the state of asexual and aromantic representation in media? Well, it could be better, but it also has been worse. It's been getting a lot better in recent years than it has been. I can finally name more than like 2 shows that have characters who come out as asexual, which is shocking that that There was once a time when there were like none, but but now there's there's quite a few.
And I I don't know if we're seeing it very much in movies yet, although movies seem to be the slowest to take up new things. But at least in books, at least in YA literature, we're doing pretty well. There's a lot of books about asexual or a romantic characters, and a lot of times it isn't even like critical to the plot. It just kind of is there, which is to me that's a sign that that representation is getting better because if it's not the focal point of the story, then that
that does mean something. And yeah, I mean multiple have hit the New York Times bestseller list like Foul Lady Fortune by Chloe Gong has a Demi sexual main character. Of course, the word wasn't invented yet in the 1930s, so it's never said in the book, but it's made pretty explicit that that is how her identity is. Of course, Loveless was on the New York Times list for a long time, and that was a really big deal to me because when that book came out, I devoured it.
And it was the first time that I'd really seen, in my experience, so, like carefully baked into a work of media in a way that was so intensely relatable to me. So yeah, I do think that representation is really improving very well, especially in young adult literature. I'm looking forward to seeing more representation though, because we could always use more. Yes. Totally agree and dear Wendy is adding to that. So thank you for adding to the. You're welcome. OK.
So back to Sophie and Joe. So I'm sorry, while Sophie and Joe are not talking to each other, Sophie decides to create this Instagram Instagram account for the Diana's and listens to folklore while doing so. I'd love to give you those Caitlyn. The question is why? Folklore. Because I was listening to folklore a lot while I was writing the book. That's it. That's a great answer. We bring up Taylor Swift randomly on many episodes and we
had to ask. This of course, yeah, no evermore came out right around when I started writing the book. So I I was listening to it like non-stop. Yep, that that sounds right. So along the lines of the same question, something we have been doing on the podcast recently is choosing Taylor Swift's songs we think relate to what we are covering. If you ever seen Gap the series, we've turned like that entire show into just Taylor Swift songs we did. Is there?
Not not at all. Is there a Taylor Swift song you think would describe Dear Wendy? I actually got asked this recently and I had to. I had to dig deep into the archives for it. I think that her song on her debut album, that was a bonus track. I'm Only Me when I'm with You. That would be a great song for this book. If you've watched the music video, It's all just clips of Taylor and her best friend from high school and I think it's just adorable and such a great
song. And I can't believe she wrote it when she was like 15 years old. Yes, this is genius. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say I also did research earlier today, 'cause I was like, sometimes the person we interview turn it back on us. So I wanted to have an answer prepared. That was my answer as well. So that's the song. It's official. You heard your post, everybody. Well, technically you heard it here second, technically yes, we. Will hear it somewhere else Caitlin.
Anyway those that concludes our questions and thank you so much for stopping by and. Thank you the. Privilege to read this book before it came out. We really appreciate it. It was really nice getting to know you and you know your thought process for putting this novel together. Before we. Before we sign off and say goodbye, do you have any like, anything you'd like to say for like, the listeners at home? I don't know. Buy my book.
I need to pay my bills, Yeah. The real estate answer ever. If you can't, if you can't buy my book, get it from the library. And if you can't do either of those things, I'm I'm really, really sorry. You are missing out OK. You are. You are like there are other methods to get my book that I cannot condone, but they exist. I also have to say I think Wellesley should give you like a brand sponsorship because I started looking into this college after work.
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, that's. Like best advertisement ever. Anyway, go grab a copy of Dear Wendy, it's really fantastic. And follow and on social media for like updates, ways to get the books. Yeah. Yeah, so until next time, hydrate for lesbian Jesus, everyone. And gate up all over the place. Bye. And with that, we've been big gay energy. Thank you for listening. We'd really appreciate it if you downloaded this episode and left
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