Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome to Big Business, the place where business is far from boring.
And today I'm recording on gadigal Land.
Now I somehow manage to build an empire from the garage underneath my house and I'm here to share it all with you, from the winds, the mistakes, the challenging times and the funny moments in between. So, whether you're in business already, perhaps you're not in the game at all, Maybe you're just looking for some inspo, or you simply just want to hear the teat when it comes to
running a business, this is the podcast for you. Coming up on today's episode, I'm joined by a very special guest and my mouth is actually watering at the theme of today's episode. I'm joined by Johnny who is the owner and founder of cake Mail, which is a cake delivery service.
They do a lot more than just cakes. They do all sorts of.
Stuff and they do same day delivery, made to order in Sydney and they will deliver it.
To your door.
Cake Mail was created to revolutionize the way customers and gifts. The limited options available in Australia's cake and gift giving industry, particularly for last minute deliveries, drove the need for innovation, and that's how cake Malt came to be. Johnny is going to be sharing with us his insights into his unique business, as well as a lot of hilarious stories that aren't so hilarious when they happen, but they're definitely very funny.
Now, Johnny, welcome to Big Business.
Thank you.
I feel like this is going to be a.
Bit of a delicious episode because your cakes look absolutely amazing.
I actually saw I think it popped up. I don't know if it was on my TikTok on.
My Instagram a little while ago. Because we've been trying to get you in for a little while. I know that you've been off traveling or you are you traveling?
Yeah, I've been traveling.
Where did you go?
So?
I just got back from South America?
Oh wow?
Did Brazil, Columbia and Chiley, which is nice. Before that was in Europe as well. Well.
Welcome back.
Thank you very much.
We've been trying to get you and you've been gallivanting around the world.
I'm glad to be back. I've got miss home of you.
Yeah you do, don't you?
Well?
I saw a video pop up. Now, did you go on like a morning show or something.
On the news.
Yeah, so we had a morning show and we had so we had the morning show and then Chatter nine News. So that was recently because we just launched a cake vending machine yeah, inside Westfills Chatswood, and so essentially they were intrigued with, you know, because it's something that hasn't really been done before. Yeah, and so the news love new stuff like that. But I guess it was our kind of way to do retail without the whole expense of setting up a whole new store.
And it makes sense especially for you, like if if you are selling something as small as cakes, like, do you really need to commit to having an entire shop?
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So the vending machine thing just absolutely caught my eye when I saw that video pop up, and I've said, we have to get this guy on because I want to hear more about the vending machines and how it all works kind of thing. Yeah, I haven't watched the video for quite a few months, but I think you were saying something along the lines of how you believe that vending machines are.
Going to be like the way of the future.
Did you say, what kind of it already is? Because like if you go to like I don't know if you've been like in Asian countries, but Japan, Korea, they're already started. Like you go out on the streets and there is just vending machines and everything and they sell everything. Yeah, and it just makes mine And we're so far online because we were very traditional our with our retail and stuff, and so I feel like eventually we're gonna get there,
but we're just someone has to do it. So that's why we're like, you know, let's do it, and let's start the trend.
What was it going to Japan or something that inspired?
So I saw them in Japan.
Wow.
And then even in Vegas, like America's starting to kind of jump on it too, so they have a lot of you know, vending machines in their casinos and stuff.
I think the only vending machines that I've really seen, I've seen like beauty brands do it, like I know, like Kylie Jenner's cosmetics, I've seen vending machines of that. I think I've seen the Sprinkles cupcakes over in America, Like I think they started that a little while ago over there, and then yeah, I've never been to Japan, but I can only imagine they've probably got vending.
Machines for absent literally everything everything.
I've even seen, like vending machines for shoes, like all like emergency shoes on a night out, Like if girls are wearing heels and their feet are hurting. There's vending machines that have little like ballet flats in.
Them and you can buy them. It's kind of smart.
What did get going into this whole vending machine thing look.
Like for you?
Like?
Did you have to? So you've obviously just got.
The one vending machine at the moment in Westfield? Chats would first of all, how did you organize that with Westfield? Like I obviously I have two Westfield stores myself, so I know what it's like to go and get a commercial lease and do all that kind of stuff. But if you just want to plunk one vending machine in a Westfield, how does that work?
Exactly?
It's not easy. It's like it's not like I getting a store sounds like hard, and as you know, it is hard, but it's vending machine. It's like it's as
hard because it's you're trying to lease a space. You're trying to get them to create a space for you as well, because legally they need like all the permissions and riots and stuff, and Coca Cola own a lot of the spaces to right, so it wasn't easy to get a space, and they don't just give it out to anyone either, so I had to full lock to a whole you know, business proposal and say, you know, because it's such a new concept as well, they don't want to just put something random in there that's not
going to work. Yes, So I think it helps that we had a brand behind us and that we could you know, use that space accordingly. But it was it wasn't easy to get the approval to do.
It, so you kind of had to say, this is us, this is our business, this is how many customers we have, this is our product exactly, and here's why I think.
It will be amazing in your center. And then have they got you on like a lease?
Yeah essentially, yeah, yeah.
Because I know, like with our commercial leases for our Westfield stores, it's based off the square meterage of the shop.
Are they charging you based off the skua?
I think they charge us per the for the spot, Like it's like it's like a whole different department, it's just for vending.
Wow.
Yeah, it's so interesting to me. And do you have plans to I think you said in the like when you went on the Morning Show that you are hoping to expand and do more vending machine.
So we're looking into buying a few more. The first one was kind of just a test to see how it's going and you know, what we need because we've never done this before, so we kind of wanted to learn, you know, what we need to get right, what products so well, what spot. Like we've moved the vending machine in a few different spaces within that same shopping center, so we know.
Have you noticed a drastic difference like moving it around?
What do you try? It's so important, Like it kind of depends. Like when we had it near the car park, it did better because people were kind of buying it on their way out. Yeah, where as opposed to when we had it in the middle of the shopping center, it wasn't doing as well because people were too already
caught up in shopping and stuff. So kind of now we're testing it in a food court area, too, but we still kind of found that the ones, the one when it was near the exit, that's where it did the best.
And that makes the no sense because you're on your way out, you've done your shopping, you've stopped thinking about all the things you needed to get, and you're on the way to the car and then you look and there's this vibrant orange vending machine with all these beautiful cakes in it.
You're like, oh, fuck it, I'll get one.
Yeah, I'll get one on the way out, get a little treat for myself.
Or if you're going to one's house, you'd be like, oh, I could get that and take that.
It's like an impulse buy on your way out.
Yeah.
What has been the most challenging part of this whole vending machine venture.
So far for you?
I think our thing with because of stock. Like we've never done retail before, Like we've always had pre orders and we know how to allocate, specially with stock management. So we've vending machines. Obviously, when you have something in there for too long, it goes off. So it's kind of managing wastage and managing stock levels so we know, you know how much the right amount to put in so we don't have to throw anything out because they
only last a certain amount of time. Yes, so we've never had to deal with wastege before, so that's been a big that's been a big challenge for us.
Yeah, that would be especially because you know the other half of your business or like your business is like cakes that just go out and the customer gets them and they're happy. Whereas now you've got this vending machine, you're going to have to be keeping your eye on when am I putting the stock in there?
When do I need to pull it out?
When does it become not good enough to eat anymore?
Exactly?
And what have you found has been the most popular selling item in your vending machine?
So we probably the biscofine, the Bisco pons was done really well. In the oil one. We've just introduced cake jars as well, and we did that because you wanted to sell something at a lower price point just to test to see, you know, if lower costing items did better, and they are. They're doing pretty well, but it's kind
of been a mix so far. But we still want to put a few more products in there to kind of test, Like we want to throw some cupcakes in them, and we want to throw some bigger priced items like whole cakes in there.
How does it because I remember seeing it in the video, like is it one of those machines that goes up and.
Like carefully picks it up and then brings it.
It's like a conveyor belt. So it's essentially it goes up and then it rolls it onto this platform and then it brings it back down and then it rolls it back out.
Because I be worried if you're doing like a big cake in there, that it's going to like smash.
Have you had anything go wrong like that?
Not yet, No, it's not. It's not possible, luckily, because if it just dropped down, the whole thing would. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't just drop down, because a lot of people think that because they think they go and they just drop sound. But it's not a normal vending machine, right, it's like a very high tech vending machine.
I can imagine that a piece of equipment like that was super expensive to make and especially customizing.
Yeah, So essentially how we got it's it's like it's a white label things. So the technology already exist, yeah, and then we just white label it.
Essentially, which for people that are listening that don't know what white labeling is.
So white labels when you just buy I don't know, depending on what the whatever space you're in, you just buy something that's already made and you kind of rebrand it to be your own. Essentially.
Yeah, so you found a company that kind of makes these vending machines the technologies there, and then you can wrap it and make your own, and then you imported that into the country. How the hell did you get the vending machine in the I can only imagine the customs.
And don't even get missed out. I can only imagine get into the west Fields like we had to. If I show you the videos of it going, we were willing it on the road and then willing it into the front door of the west Field.
Oh no, and I'd sod for.
The elevator, so we had to. Literally it was it was like four people trying to push this big and it's massive as well. It's not small, yeah, it's two point two meters high.
I would be so worried, especially because it is like it's technology in a box.
I'd be worried that.
One little thing would come loose and then the whole machine wouldn't work, Like if you're wheeling it down the street, I'd be freaking out that I was going to break the machine out.
We've been through that worry multiple times as well because we've had to move it. Moving it is the worst thing.
I can only imagine when's the next one?
If there is one, we're looking into getting free more wow and.
You're going to go Westfields every time.
Well, it's interesting because we've had a lot of since we've launched, We've had a lot of other companies reach out to us wanting to get these machines, because at first it was so hard just to get anyone to take it. And now since you know, we got featured on TV and all that, everyone's like jumping at us and get it. So we've had UNI's approach.
Us that would be a good one.
I ressell clubs approachest. We've had hospitals approach USTs. So it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like an eye opener to see what we don't know what to do yet, because it's like these could be do you better than shopping centers? We don't know, like hospitals, Like it's such a it's a good thing if you want to say a gift to.
A fea, if someone's having a tough time in hospital, give you a beautiful k Yeah.
Wow.
I guess another thing that I haven't thought as well, what is the benefit to let's say Westfield for them with you having your vending machine in there. Because again, I know the way that it works when you have an actual store in Westfield. I know that you pay them rent and all that kind of stuff. Is that all they're getting from you? Or are they taking a cut if you're allowed to stay.
It's just been rent at the moment. Yeah, I'm not sure. I know they do take commission. I'm not sure off vending. I think vending is a bit different. Yeah, like it's retail, but yeah, no, it's just rent.
So you're quite literally just paying for the space.
And the same goes for any traditional retail store in a Westfield Like you are just essentially paying them rent and what they will do and what may be in your contract with them as well, which is in our contracts, is each retailer they give you a like a threshold and if in a year you make a a that threshold, they then take a percentage of every dollar above that threshold. Yes, but and it's all calculated off the square meterage. So I'm not sure if they do the same for the
vending machines. But every single store, let's say like Apple for example, like their store is huge, so then that number for them is really high kind of thing. And the numbers that they give you is high to the point where it's almost not achievable. We get pretty close, but I haven't had to give Westfield a percentage of our sales, like we've just come under each year, which is.
Good because you want to make more. If you're making more than you've got to start paying for it.
Yeah, and it's every dollar above that amount that you make. It's it's not every dollar you've made.
Before then kind of thing.
So let's say, for example, it's one point five million dollars in the year. Any dollar above one point five million, they will take a percentage of every dollar above that. And it's negociable what that percentage is. And we haven't we haven't just hit it, but I know when we were getting close to it in like our first year of our Westfield Miranda store, I was saying to my partner, a j stop, stop, stop, like we need to stop making money, because I didn't want it to get to that point.
But like you said, it's like a double edged sword.
You want to make more money, then you know, if you make a little bit too much, then you're going to actually make less.
So I'm not sure if it'd be the same for you with that.
I don't think yet, but on the track they inforce it, I don't know.
Let's go back to cake Mail.
I was reading up on your website and you started baking when you were in high school.
You're really young, seeming pretty much well even before that, like I always had it as a hobby, but sixteen is when I started.
The business, and it was just you always liked baking from when you were really.
Young, and then you just thought, what I'm gonna start. We were selling them to friends and family.
First it was friends and family and then it kind of was like the whole word of mouth thing from there. But I literally did it out of my garage from home. So first it was in my mom's kitchen and she got she cracked it because there was we turned the whole house into a business, had all these people rocking up to the house, and orders go everywhere, and the
whole place was a mess. So then we converted the back garage into a whole industrial kitchen and then from there, because we outgrew that, then we moved into a warehouse.
Yeah weell.
I feel like most businesses start that way, Like my business started in the garage underneath my house.
Yeah, you can't have it any other way, no, And.
I think it's really special to be able to start a business that way, to start it from quite literally nothing, just you making these cakes at home kind of thing, to then fully turning into a proper business with a warehouse. And for those who haven't seen your business before, you do a lot, like I've been stock on the Instagram, Like you do all sorts of cakes.
You do cupcakes, you do the cakes where you pull.
The ones, yeah yeah, and then it all like falls down and so you do also like same day delivery in Sydney or something like that.
Yeah yeah, So same day was kind of our main like competitive point with our business because we are the first people in Sydney to do the same day cake delivery. And that's kind of what tipped our business over the edge, because like everybody makes cakes, but what makes your cakes different to everyone else, And our thing was a service because we're like birthday cakes especially are the single most
forgotten thing on a birthday, yet they're most important. Yeah, And so that like we always saw that as a gap because when I was running my business before that, I was thinking people were always so last minute to organize cakes, and they always wanted them delivered. So I'm like, I imagine there was somebody that you could just order off and it would come to you. So then I saw us, like, you know, we like now the uber eats of birthday cakes.
Wow. And how do you orchestrate that from your end? Obviously? Do you just have to have a certain amount ready kind of thing?
We make everything to order, wow.
But if someone order in the morning.
Yeah, so we have up to a twelve o'clock today. But it took us a very long time to get that.
Process because I was thinking, maybe you would have like twenty bisco Offs done and twenty cookies.
And cream or a couple, yeah, because we know we're going to sell them. Yeah. But eventually, when at a certain time hits, we just literally make to order because we don't want to like have stuff there ready for the next day, like when everything out fresh. Yeah, wow, So the process we've got is we've nailed it, but it took us a very long time to get it right. Yeah, a long time.
I think that's a thing that a lot of people again can be misled with in business, is it takes so long to get to a point where everything is perfect. Much like you with your vending machines and right now going we're just testing it out.
We don't know what we're doing.
And I'm sure you know if it all goes well for you with these vending machines, in three years from now, you can be like, look at where we are now with these vending machines, and you can look back and compare to now when you've got the one vending machine, how different it'll be. Business is always a journey, I would say, and it takes forever to get to that good point. But I personally believe even when you think you're at the good point, you're not.
You're not.
There's always so much more that you can improve on.
How does your team look with the cakes, like if you're making them to order kind of thing like how many people have you got baking every day?
What does that look?
Like, yeah, we have got a good team, but what about in the kitchen we got about eight or so people. Yeah, and then we have a whole team of driver as well, so we do all our deliveries in the house as well. Wow, because that was another challenge ahead of our business when whenever we sent them out with careers and stuff, they would just treat them like they or nothing like that, throw them away. They'd be melted, they wouldn't arrived the
way that they're meant to. So we had to then go and invest all our resources into setting up a delivery network. So like all the drivers we basically work for us. Yeah, so it took us a while to get that as well.
I could only imagine we have said before that some like one day we want to do like a delivery because we're based in Newcastle, we want to do like a delivery day in Newcastle, you know, like same day delivery or whatever.
And I've said to my partner Aj.
How would we even like work out what suburb you go to first, and like what would be the loop?
So I can imagine it would have been.
Yeah, it was such a especially with Sydney, like there's so many more suburbs here. Yeah, so much more traffic, Like how do you even orchestrate something like that.
Logistics is the hardest part of our business. Like everybody asked me, like what's the hardest part. Logistics is the worst part because it's people, especially when you're dealing with
emotions and people gifting. Everybody. When you give some like something to someone, you want it to be perfect, right, So you're gonna have people on the other end saying, please make sure this cake is delivered by three o'clock, or it's going to a school this person leaves at two o'clock that has to get there at this time, or it's in the hospital in the maternity ward but you can't get through you need it and there will be like ten million instructions attached to it, and so
trying to get everyone's delivery perfect to how the customer wants it. It doesn't always happen, like no, I think she happens. Like a driver will get into a car accident, all the cakes will be damaged. So like that happen, Yeah, multiple times, Oh, she happens. Or a driver will get to a house and there will be a dog and the dog will be barking at them. We can't even cross and the dog like one time a dog literally jumped the fence and was chasing the driver with the cake.
And the hard thing is as well, like stuff like this happens in business every day, and customers, I guess, don't see that side, and even as like especially like you said, if it's a cake and if it's something special, and you're like, I'm so sorry, but the drive has been chased down the road by a dog and his legs being bitten and the cake smashed on the ground.
I think a lot of the times the customers don't.
Care that that happen because it's their special moment with their cake and.
They're like, oh, I needed the cake, like where is it?
And I can understand their point of view, but also, like you said, like shit happens in business all the time that is completely out of your control. What would you say in your how many years have you been doing cake mail?
Cake mal has been seven years old?
Wow?
Yeah, well done, thank you.
What would you say has been the biggest mistake or desare start in that time?
So I remember one time there was so like I've done multiple roles, so I've always taught myself every single role of the business, and so whenever I was needed to do that role, say like you know where stuff was sick or couldn't rock up, or we need extra help, I would know how to do it. And so on Christmas, the admin she couldn't rock up, she was sick, so I had to do that role. Now I hadn't done
that role probably be about to use. Even though I learned that role and I created that role, I completely forgot how to do it. I'm not very tech savvy, so you're more hands on, yeah, more hands on, more creative, But that role was more so like Xcel based, and like exporting all the orders and pretty much doing the logistics part of it and creating like the labels and
the order list. And so I clicked a few wrong buttons and essentially, and we didn't know this until the orders went out, when we started getting emails saying, hey, I've received the wrong cake, and and again and again, I'm like and it literally happened to every single order. And so essentially what happened was in so we have we sought the orders alphabetically, but I sorted the cakes alphabetically, so every sing so every single person got the wrong cake.
And it was just all on Christmas Day or like just before Christmas.
Christmas was Christmas Eve, so pretty much it was our last every day. So pretty much I ruined Christmas for about three hundred and something people.
You are the gringe, literally and we're all the all the cakes Christmas theme.
Some of them were, but some of them weren't. So like people were getting like happy Birthday cakes or like we have we have like a selfie cake where you upload like your photo, so some people were getting random people.
What year was this?
This was, like I'm going to say two thousand and nineteen was just before COVID.
He ruined Christmas with some people, Like some people were funny about.
It, funny, but it was kind of like it didn't matter. Like it was like and you can imagine like your back, like it felt so bad and it was we had a evon three hundred and fifty people, like it was just shit. It was.
It was not good at all, with some people raging. I could imagine some people would be raging. Some people would find it funny. You ruin, Oh no, wow, I mean if you don't laugh, you cry, right, And I feel like these things happen in business, and at the time you definitely wouldn't have been laughing. Yeah, I would have felt sick and not been able to sleep a couple of days.
I was out. But now, but now you laugh about it. It's always like the bad ones, the bad stories that you remember and you told people, and you always laugh about.
Them, exactly right, And it's from those times where yeah, that was absolutely fucked when you ruined Christmas for three hundred people, But you can look at it now.
Laugh, and I'm sure you learn a lot of lessons from that.
Yeah, every time I do that role now, I always go back to that and I'm like, make sure you've done this right?
Yes, one, how did you recover from that in the end, Like, well, we're inally good.
About customers, and I've always believed that you need to, especially with our business, because our business relives and repeat customers over and over, Like, if you fuck up their cake once're not gonna order if you will again, you need to keep them on your side. So if we've asked, we refund that every single person, and then we also gave them a twenty five dollar store credit to use as an insensitive on their next order.
Yeah, did you find that a lot of them came back again?
Yeah, most of them. Look, most people will understand you're gonna have your handful of people that probably just sped up and not gonna come back. But you tely think about it's always gonna happen. You can't keep everyone happy. The ones that you can't keep happy that you don't really want them at the end of the day because they're just gonna always find someone to pick.
Oh, I feel you.
I literally got an email this morning from a customer saying that she hopes that karma gets me.
That's a new one.
Yeah, Like I got the most horrible now, But because we rejected her return, because like when you're returning, so like we get returns.
Back with our clothes, which is a whole other part of business. Like you wouldn't have returns on cakes, I'm sure. And it has to be in like one hundred percent original condition. If it's got like pet hair or like smells really strong of something, Yeah, we can't fold it back up nicely and put it on the on the shelf and sell it again.
And so we're just the worst people in the world for rejecting her return.
Even though, we send it back to her at our own cost, and we're like, you know, usually we charge someone to be like here, you're going to have to have it back and you're gonna have to pay for the shipping. We send it back to her, and yeah, she said that she.
Hopes that karma gets me.
But you can just literally never make anyone like everyone has a lot of though, Like.
With people buying stuff, wearing it and then returning it, do you see a lot of that?
We would, yeah, And like it's a really shady part of this industry, I guess is people would buy something like carefully take the tag off, wear it, and put the tag back on and send it back. But our warehouse team pretty thorough it comes to checking returns and like you can kind of tell when something has been worn, and like we fucking smell, like it's really gross, but we like check over it because you just want it
to be perfect, you know. So yeah, I totally agree with you that you can't make everyone happy when you're in business.
I think a lot of people naturally are people pleasers.
We want to make everyone happy, like that's just who we are as humans. But I think being in business will give you the biggest wake up call. You literally can't make everyone happy. Some people are going to absolutely hate your guts.
It took me a long time to learn that as well, because you're always wanting to make everyone happen, and every time we'd get like a complaint or something, it would really hit me hard because we work so hard to build the business to that point, right, and so whenever you get people that aren't happy, like, it took me a while to sit there and say, it's okay, it's mine Like, You're always going to have people that aren't going to be happy, And.
That's point I couldn't.
You're speaking my own language, honestly, And I think it's really important that to all business owners out there, no matter where you are in your journey, you have to know it's okay if people hate your business.
You just want to go like you actually do something. They go you can't little little thing.
Yeah, you're going to spend all of your energy for the whole day on that customer that's going off at you or whatever.
When you kind of just have to go, all right, I'm going to close this ticket now and wish you the best kind of thing.
What else in your business journey so far, have you found to be surprising or challenging.
Yeah, So during like COVID, especially in the midst of COVID, like a lot of businesses were closing down and then but it was funny because our business was doing the opposite. Our business was the doing so it was getting busy
and busy and busy. We couldn't even manage it. Like our business went ten times in sales over the course of you know, the two weeks, and then every time there was like another lockdown, it would go more and more and more because our business was like one of the only ones that could operate because we'll food delivery. So we got around it. And so during COVID it
was like we had to keep hiring stuff. We had to like we're operating our business at a level that we didn't even know how to do because it was like ten times production and so it was just crazy. I've never ever seen the business at that point ever, and we'll never ever get there again because it was like people will ordering it because we were one of the
only things open. Yeah. Wow, especially with gifting and stuff, like you couldn't see your friends, so you would have to send them something yes, and so COVID was a big surprise for us because I didn't expect our business to do that. And then ever since doing that, we've retained a lot of our customers from it.
So it's almost like COVID was like an amazing yea for you. I feel like for a lot of businesses it either was like a make or break for them. I feel like for online businesses, online businesses boomed in COVID because everyone was at home, everyone was getting the COVID payments off the government kind of thing, and they were just spending money online.
I know for us as well, we only.
Had our one retail store at the time in Newcastle, so that shut which was fine because it was just our one little Newcastle boutique, but our online sales went up as well, especially Becau, because when we first went into lockdown, it was like the weather was cooling down.
We were coming out with all of our trackies and hoodies, so.
It was like because people were just buying trackies and hoodies to sit at home on Zoom with their friends.
I guess, how did you.
Because I've heard a lot of stories from business owners and I have friends who are business mentors, and coaches, and they've said a lot of businesses that did peak in COVID have really struggled since because they saw this boom in COVID and they thought, oh, this is amazing, like this is what it's going to be now, and then when things went back to normal, they felt their business slow down again.
Did you I think we had the same thing, although I knew it wasn't here to stay because obviously it's only increasing because of COVID, So what's going to happen when COVID stopped? So I kind of had that in the back of my mind. But because their business went so well, and we were forced to grow at a rate that we weren't ready for. So we moved into a bigger warehouse, we hired all these stuff, we implemented
all these new processes. So when we went back to normal, it was like we had all this space, all this stuff, and we didn't have the you know, the orders for it.
So it was kind of how did you manage that?
We had just like de scale, So we went from scaling up to we literally had to scale everything back down.
Did you have to let people go from there?
We hadually had no choice, but as that kind of happened, and as COVID went away, more jobs became people went back to the original jobs because we during COVID, we employed a lot of people that lost their jobs, and I employed a lot of family as well because they all lost their jobs. So it was like we were one of the only people employing people. Like at one stage we had over one hundred drivers. Wow, Like it was just it was crazy. I've never seen the business like.
There was take everywhere. Even the new warehouse we moved into was not big enough, so we had to make a makeshift warehouse outside. We put all these marquees and tents outside so we could literally produce cakes outside. It's like, I can't even explain it. You couldn't even walk on the floor because there was just shit everywhere. You got at a level where I didn't think it was possible at all.
Yeah, Well, business really is just one massive whirl wind, isn't it.
Yeah.
To wrap up the episode, where do you see the future of cake Mail going? And I guess, looking back on your seven year journey, did you ever think that you would be where you are now when you first started? Because I think that's a big thing for a lot of business owners is they start this little thing at home and then it turns into something massive. You know, what is your overview of your journey and what are your goals.
For the future, if any.
It's kind of crazy because when I started it, I literally started it in my garage, and especially because I was never meant to do this, but my mom never wanted me to do this. She wanted me to go to UNI.
What did you want to do originally or did you always want.
To I never knew what I wanted to do because I was so young. I knew I liked doing this, but it was never meant to go this world. It was never meant to be a business like and so kind of brought at took off. It was like, all right, this is pretty cool and I like doing it. And I've always I've never seen myself working for anyone either, So it's crazy when I look back now to see what it's become. I didn't think it ever gets to
this stage. Never, So I'm happy with where at scotton, and I guess kind of the goals now is to kind of push it to what else it can be. And that's kind of with the vending machines, because it's like with our business especially, there's only so many birthdays on so many days, so it's kind of like once you hit that, it's hard because you can't really grow much more like we've hit all the other like you know, Valentine's fathers and mothers. They look, I've done all that.
But our next step will always retail. And that's why I see with the vending machines, if we can get it right, I think that's probably our next way forward.
Yeah. I love that.
And would you ever open Like I know we're talking about bending machines and saying you don't need a lease, but would you ever open your own like little cafe shops?
Yeah? Look, I've thought about it, but I feel like the main thing with our brand is that our different point is that we don't have a shop. We are online same day cake delivery, and I don't want to cannibalize the whole business by opening a shop.
Yeah, and the shops are hard.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't mind opening up a shop one day, but probably not with this brand, like probably with something else.
Yeah.
Wow, And have you thought the other way, like expanding into let's say supermarkets where you're selling to them at wholesale.
So we've recently launched into ij Oh wow, so you're doing it all. We're only testing out a couple of stores to see kind of how it works. Yep. But yeah, it's still kind of like playing at the moment. But yeah, it's definitely something we could look into, Like especially with the Woods and Calls, that would be cool because they've obviously got more of a reach.
Absolutely, you just have to be mindful of your margins at that point because I know they take a lot and also you have no control over the price they sell your.
Products at wholesale is hard as well. It's like it's another whole world.
I cannot even begin to imagine. That was my other question that I had for you before. What would you say that you owe all of your success to with cake Mail? Like what is it exactly that has Like obviously you've got your same day delivery, but like, how have you gotten the audience that you have? Like has it been social media and organic content or is it being paid ads or has it been emails? Like what would you say has been the biggest Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
I think out of everything we did, The main thing that we did that like that I physically saw the business the sales go up, was influencers. Like back in the days when we first started and we were sending out our product to influencers and they were sharing it. Yeah, that's where we got big reach. That's where we got a lot of people ordering a lot of like obviously increased followers and things like that that I feel like that, out of everything did the best for us.
Do you think it's still the same today, it's.
Very very different. I think influencers that it's hard because obviously we've tested ongoing influences and it's hard because people kind of know us already. I feel like we've influenceers that best works with like a new product or a new brand. But even then, now influencers know their worth and they're charging a lot more for it. Oh yeah, Like back in the days, we never paid for one influencer. They just wanted a free cause it was kind of
like a privilege for them to be sent. Like we kind of flipped it on its head.
And now it's like I'll have the cake, but I also want ten brand.
Yeah literally, and it doesn't get the same pool as it used to because there's a lot more influences and they're posting a lot more things, and so your product is like drowning in so many other promotions.
I completely agree, and I've spoken about this on the podcast before that influencer marketing like seven years ago was so different, Like you could give an influencer a cake and they could post about it and you'd get hundreds of orders. Whereas now you could like give the same influence or a cake and you might get two orders. It's just because social media is so saturated now.
Oh, I love it.
Well, Johnny, I'm going to wrap up today's episode with a question for you. I feel like you've already given us so many little tips, but I always do a tip of the week. It can be about business, it can be live, it can be anything in between.
What is your tip of the week for us?
Yeah, when most business owners speak to me, I always say this one thing for them, and they resonate it with it well. And I always say work on the business, not in the business, because a lot of business owners I meet are always so hands on in the business. They're doing like you know, packing their orders, they're they're posting on social media, they're doing this, they're doing that's that's great, But what are you doing to actually grow
your business? What are you doing to make sure your business is not the same as it was yesterday.
I absolutely love that.
I feel like you having to go at me as well because I'm so hands on that I always do stuff. But I'm totally with you on that, and I think it's really important when we do start new businesses from the ground up, like in our garages, you're making the cakes in your mum's kitchen. It's really important to have your fingers in every part of the business then and learn all those roles and do all those things and
understand how it works. But it gets to a point, especially if you are wanting to scale the business, that you need to step away from those day to day operations. And I know for me that I found over the years of my journeys, I held a lot of guilt around not actually doing those hands on things, Like when I felt myself not packing orders anymore, I would feel guilty that I wasn't there helping my warehouse team, or if I'm not in the store serving customers like I found.
I don't know if you experienced it as well.
It takes a lot to let go of your business. Yes, it has to, Like you know, detach yourself from your business. Your business will live without you, m M. Otherwise you will never like you can't treat it. You can't be so emotional with business like. It took me a long time because I was so attached to it. Every time something went wrong, I was there, whereas now I have people in place, that manager, and obviously it doesn't run as well when you're not there. I get it.
You need to be there to an extent, yes.
But to an extent like let it suck up a bit, but still let it run by itself like it's it's its own entity now, like you don't have to be so attached to it. Don't have to be on across everything about it.
That's solid advice. Write that down everyone.
Well, Johnny, it has been so great to have you on the pod. I'm looking forward to see where you take cake mail next. And hopefully we might have to get a cake mail vending machine in the Faith store or something, but put Faith branding all over it and have a fake cake machine. Thank you so much for coming on the pod. Where can everyone find you? Obviously, we know you've got your vending.
Machine in Chatswood. Go check it out. Where is it at the moment.
In in Westfield Chatswood, in the food court.
In the food court.
If you're at Westfield Chatswood, go and go and get yourself a cake.
And where else can everyone find cake Mail?
And then you can just online so our website cakemail dot com dot at you and then you can pretty much pick whatever the cake you want and we deliver.
What's your number one suggestion for.
The Ferrara fountains a bestseller Ferrara that's the one where you lift up the plastic and or the chocolate palls down over the side of the cake.
We might have to order one in for the Nova off us. We could order it today, Xandre, and it could be here today. We've still got forty five. Well, thanks Johnny so much for coming on, Thank you for having great to chat with you.
Thank you very much.