Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome back to Big Business. You're in a bonus episode today and I'm joined by the wonderful Susie again today. Thanks for coming back. You'll have to listen to our main episode. These are coming out back to back, right, Xander, Yes, okay, so go listen to Monday's MAINEP. But I've got Susie back again in the seat for the bonus Xander, did you have a question that you wanted for this episode?
I do so. My question to Susie is, I used to work in a workplace where I had the most horrific time. It was workplace bullying, there was harassment, There's all sorts of like nasty things that went on, and looking back, I found myself in the moment, instead of looking after myself and taking care of my mental health and my physical health and setting myself up to succeed at work, I was more concerned about my loyalty to the business and how the decisions of others and the
effects of me were affecting the business. And I want to ask you, how do we as like employees or people who are working underneath people and working with people that aren't so nice. How do we kind of protect ourselves in those situations and not give everything we have into something that, in the grand scheme of things, isn't actually looking out for you.
Yeah, good question. And I can imagine that was so incredibly difficult to be in that environment. Yes, it sounds really toxic y. Yeah, And so on one hand, you're trying to do your job but just feeling horrendously bullied at the same time and not knowing what to do and feeling like a loyalty to the business. Yeah. Look, I think when you're in that type of environment's very rare that that person will change. I think we hope that maybe things will get better, or that person might change,
or the circumstance might be different. But what I've found a lot of research finds is that people like that are very unlikely to change, particularly by your actions. So what you can do is definitely have a document that you're writing down all those behaviors so you've got the evidence there. If there is a HR team or someone you trust in leadership, to go to them and bring that up. Not trying to appease that person. Often we try and get them to like us more, or we overcompensate me and.
Isn't that so weird? And I can speak to this as well. And now I've been self employed for over ten years, so it's been a long time since I've worked for someone else. But it really opens your eyes when someone comes on board into Fate. And obviously then they start talking about their past experiences or you even just notice little things that they've carried with them from their previous workplace and they bring it into Fate, maybe because they've just held onto it. Just little things like
profusely apologizing for having a sick day. You know, I'm so sorry, I'm letting the whole team down. And it's so interesting because in my mind, I'm like, you're sick, Like, have the day off. It's no stress at all, Like we'll pick up anything that needs to be done kind of thing. But I notice patterns in staff members that
have obviously been brought over from previous workplaces. I've found by chatting with staff members and hearing about the places that they've worked in the past, that people do tend to stay really loyal to workplaces that are no good for them. And what is that weird attachment that? Like why is that? But do you have any insight as to why that is.
Yeah, there's definitely a few factors there. So sometimes it can be fear of what else am I going to do? And they've invested so much time here, and maybe it will get better, like maybe maybe it's going to change. It's like when you're a bad relationship. Oh but been in this relationship for five years and you know I've invested so much. Maybe it's just going to get better, and you hold on to that hope is over stay
or you stay too long. Again, when we think back to childhood patterns, that may be a bit of a mirror of what was going on in their childhood. So that feels familiar to them, even though it's dysfunctional, it feels familiar. So you stay because you're used to that kind of environment. So there can be a whole range of factors why you do stay. But at the end of the day, you know your work, it will come and go. But you do really need to protect you know,
your own mental health, don't you. And so I often say, if you're an environment and it's unlikely that your boss is going to change, the environment most likely will not change. And there's this huge changes like at a leadership level, then you know it's better to look for another opportunity.
I find that my kind of pattern that I recognize myself now is that coming into God, even coming into Nova, I want people to like and accept me so much that I overdo it now because I'm so scarred from other interactions with you not so nice people that I might constantly like overcompensating. And that's like something that I'm trying to break down.
Now and be like, you have to do everyone likes you, and.
Well, the conflict resolution within business is something that's really interesting to me as well, because I always found that
that was probably the most traumatic process of the whole thing. Like, yes, you've gone through these really nasty situations within a business, but then the conflict resolution that happens with things like HR and then the mediation between HR and the cause of the problem, that was like the most traumatic part of the whole thing, because then you're sitting there and you're like, oh my god, it's all my fault that
this is happening. What advice do you have, Like, when's that point where people should realize that this isn't worth it?
What's a good question to ask in terms of like is this still working for me? I've tried all these things and it's still not working. I need to look at other options. And it depends on that person and they're standing the organization. If they're a senior leader and they're inn key leadership, they've go a lot of buying in the organization, It's unlikely that they're going to change. So unless you've really got that back into the scene, your leadership and you feel like the HR practices, there's
all that support there. I just think sometimes if you know you've got to continue working with that person's unlikely they're probably going to change, So it might be you making the change.
What are some healthy things to look out for within like the HR or a business, Like if you're in a situation like this, what are healthy practices that you should look out for to be like cool, they have my back?
Yeah, I think just the validation that you're not crazy, you know in that moment, the gas lining of like oh you know, they're just having a bad day, like making excuses for that behavior. So just validation and acknowledgment that what's happening is not okay, and then a really clear plan. So this is what we're going to do to fix this. So I think just that you're informed of those processes, you're validated in your responses, and that
you feel supported in that journey. And I guess it's hard because some people, you know, in your situation, the bulling was quite clear. But sometimes you know, if you're finding that wherever you go these problems follow you, that you may be contributing.
To them, which isn't happening here.
Situation, but something. But you know you're the common denominated here. I'm just saying that this is your situation.
But that thought crosses your mind. Yeah it is here, But I mean I've never had any situation like that happen at any other workplace. But when you're in it, you're constantly you're questioning one the problem.
Yeah, yeah, I really like this little phrase and I often say it often is that how you experience someone is how most people experience them. Wow. So when you're having a difficult interaction, you know you've been around with someone, you walk away and you just feel like you just want to like dust yourself off. What was that? And then you're just spiraling a little bit afterwards. You know, Wow, what I just experienced, then most people would experience that.
So it's actually kind of validating if you know that you're not the only one. And I'm sure that particular person that you were interacting with, I'm pretty confident that they would have similar interactions with other people, maybe not to the degree that happened to you, but in their history and maybe in the workplace. Were you aware that they were doing similar things?
There were some pretty like consistent behavior patterns.
Yes, Yeah, so it's often not about us. Yeah, it's often a trauma response and their own childhood wounds and other things going on in their own world for them to act in that way that is dysfunctional and often a bit of a powerplay insecurity plays hugely into that bullying behavior as well.
And these are things we don't think of when we're in the situation.
No, And the interesting thing as well, is like being on my end, being the business owner that is running the workplace and hearing about things like this. Obviously we've never had to touch wood, We never had to deal with anything like that in the seven years of Fate. We've definitely dealt with, you know, small little staff conflicts or maybe someone said something that's just upset someone or offended them or whatever, and we deal with that ourselves.
But one thing that I'm always mindful of, and I guess having this conversation with you both today and I've said it a million times, you know, on the internet and in my podcast, is dealing with staff is the
hardest part of business. And it's like scenarios like this that you're talking about, Like it's just being mindful as a business owner and always aware of what's going on, because so much shit can go on in a workplace, as you know, Xander, and like I know the story and things that you've experienced, and that is one of my biggest fears as a business owner is I can work as hard as I can to make the most
amazing workplace. We can have all the policies and procedures in place and all the ducks in a row, but it's so hard dealing with staff because sometimes people are just going to cause issues. And that's like one of the toughest pills to swallow as a business owner is like you can be doing everything right and someone can just then fuck it all up and create, you know, so many problems, or be an extreme bully and like just disrupt your business, and it's one thing in business
that you can't avoid that happening. And it's just really like I'm just sitting here, like in this conversation, I'm like, oh my god, I hope we never have to deal with anything like this and gets involved in and it's this person verse that person like touch would I never have to deal with something.
I usually the one hearing about it. I'm like, oh my god, the goss.
Yeah.
And then when you're in it, it's another ball game. It's another ball game.
Yeah. No, I've had earlier in my career. I had similar experiences. It's you know, it's really difficult, and you know, building on what you were just saying, I think what I see in phenomenal leaders is the ability to have difficult conversations.
Oh, I've got a saying that I always say, You're gonna love it. You've probably already heard it before. But the saying that I always say is hard conversations, easy life, easy conversations, hard life, love it. I lived that. I just went to say it backwards. Then I'm like, wait, how do I say this? And like I said in the main episode with you, like we don't like inflicts as humans. We avoid it at all costs. We don't
want to have a tough conversation. But if there's one thing that I've learned above all in my journey is how important it is to just tackle that thing head on, even if it's something tiny. I have learned from my own experiences, if you just let something get swept under the rug because it's only little and you don't want to upset anyone, it will snowball into a massive problem and then you'll be like, what on earth am I supposed to do? And that's always my advice to people.
And it's always so hard when you're a new business owner and you've just got your first couple of little employees and you know, you're just really friendly with them, and then they do something that's maybe a little out of line or they've upset someone. It's really hard to then know how to put on, you know, the big boots and sit down and go, look like, let's chat about this. And I was the same way when I started faate. I didn't want to say anything bad to anyone.
I didn't want to upset someone. I didn't want to call someone out if they'd done something wrong. In the business. But I've really learned just the important of just having a hard conversation to have the easy life.
I love that so much. And if you're listening and you're thinking, oh my gosh, I want to be able to have those difficult conversations, but how do you even start that.
It's just taking the leap, Taking the leap.
And there's a phenomenal book by Brene Brown called Dare to Lead, A bit of a plug for her love her work. It's a fantastic book with a real framework of how do you setup those conversations with your team, how do you have those honest chats in a way that's respectful. So some brilliant frameworks in there if you want to check that out. She's also got a great podcast too, Dare to Lead.
There you go, speaking of art workplaces, We've got a little scenario for you. It's just like a made up scenario, but we thought we would love to hear your feedback on it. Obviously, hiring is a huge part of business, and hiring the right person is everything. And that's another thing that I've learned is just the importance of having all the right people in all the right roles. And how having one person, one wrong person in a role, how it can just like throw the whole thing off.
And culture is everything. So I've got a scenario for you, and i'd like to know your advice on it. Let's say there's a scenario where you've got two people going for a job. Okay, one of them is excellent culture wise, like amazing culture wise, and the other one isn't very good for the culture, but they're way better at doing the job. Who would you be picking or what would you be looking at in this scenario?
Okay, maybe I have a bias here, but based on my background and the science and everything I've read and understand, I would always choose the one that's the great for the culture. Because skills can be taught.
One hundred percent, you cannot teach someone their personality. That's another thing I've learned as well. And like you said earlier when you were talking with Xander, some people are never going to change. So if you're hiring that person who's not really the best for the culture but amazing at the job, you can't then train them on their
personality to better fit the team. Just seeing the rise of I guess younger people becoming bosses, and we have all these millennials that are now you know, CEOs and founders of companies. I feel like cultures becoming so much more important, whereas maybe twenty years ago, it was just show me your resume. Yep, you've got the skills, you're hired. So culture is everything for me. And in that scenario, I'd probably pick the culture fit as well and teach them all the things they need to know.
Yeah, and you know, you want to choose people that have a gross mindset that are really keen to learn and develop, and they're hungry to adjust their thinking and learn new skills. I think that's really crucial. It's interesting there's been all these studies done on what makes someone likable, and someone who is generally likable has an equal blend of warmth and competence. So that's kind of what you want to look for. Someone who is warm and engaging
and connected. And even if they're an introvert, they don't have to be overly expressive, but they have to kind of, you know, be able to have a good interaction with your.
Team overly warm.
Temperature, but then that competence, So you I think this is a twofold situation where you don't want someone who's just great for the culture but doesn't have the competence. Yes, you need them to have the skills and also the mindset that they want to learn, versus someone who's just brilliant but isn't going to be great for the culture. So yeah, I think it's nuanced.
Well, thanks Susie for coming on the bonus episode, and if you haven't listened to this week's main please do. You said it wasn't a therapy session. I saw it as a little bit of fun.
It was psycho education.
Yeah, exactly right. Well, thanks again for joining us, and we'll definitely have to get you back in the new year.
I'd love that. Thanks so much, guys,