Image of God Part 3: The Garden Was Not Perfect

Hey, this is John, and before we get started on today's episode, I wanted to let you know about our new expanded show notes. These are really cool. Our show notes now have chapter by chapter summaries, reflection questions for you to dig deeper. Every time we reference scripture or look at a biblical word, that's all going to be referenced in the show notes. And you can find a link in our episode description. You could also find them in the Bible Project app. All right, here's the show.

This is Jonathan Collins, and you're listening to the Bible Project Podcast. This is the last of a three part series. where I've been discussing the theme of the image of God with Tim Mackey, who I work with here at the Bible Project. We wrapped up this conversation of the image of God in the last episode, but I felt still kinda uneasy. I I I pulled Tim back into the recording room and I and I was telling him, Tim

I s I feel really confused and I kept using the word dizzy. I feel dizzy. I felt disequilibrated. I had lost this. conception of, hey, we exist just to glorify God and enjoy Him, whatever that means. And that now needs to be replaced by this this richer idea of representing God on earth as His

co-creators moving the human project forward. And and so this left me with a lot more questions. I wanted to dig in more, so we do that here in the final episode of the Image of God. I hope you enjoy Okay, so as we were talking last time about the image of God, we started talking about

how uh this understanding of the word perfect and how uh we we put on the narrative of Genesis one and two that things were perfect and by perfect I typically uh mean, I think other people mean, there's no conflict. Or another way to think about it is you got everything you could desire. You desired it and then you got it. Like there was no there's no time between your desire and that desire being fulfilled. So the state of bliss

Essentially. Uh and so if that's where you start, then the Christian narrative is we had a state of bliss where all our desires were taken care of. We screwed that up, so now we're not in a state of bliss, but one day w we can be in the state of bliss again. God will let us in to the state of bliss, which is heaven. We need to figure out how to get back there and in the meantime just sit it out and wait.

So that's my understanding. However, y you you you said that per perfection is in in Hebrew thought is is com is completeness. Mm-hmm. And your point is, well the story isn't complete. God put the humans in the garden. It was good before the fall, but it wasn't complete. The their Th their tasks still had to be continued. Yeah, it's not complete or perfect in the same way the first five minutes of a movie isn't complete. The story is just beginning. There's there's no

Right. So yeah. And so then in Revelation twenty two, when this all manifests again, your point is is that the story is just it's a new beginning. Yes, but what the d the key difference between Genesis one and two and Revelation twenty one and twenty two is that God and humans at the beginning of the Bible are in this state of potential partnership. And then that partnership because of human freedom and rebellion has gone wrong. And so what is What is that?

Perfect in a sense is that the way that the story of the world will move forward is only after God has so closely bound humans to himself.

in the image of God of Jesus, that the n the story of God's world now moves forward with humans in full partnership with God. Which is the whole point of the image. The point of the image is to be in partnership with God. Yes. I mean If the center of the Christian story is God becoming human, then apparently God's vision of a perfect universe can't exist without without humans.

God's chosen not to live without humans. Yeah. I mean if the incarnation of Jesus means anything as a statement about what God wants, it's that he wants to have his life completely bound up together intimately with humans. That the story of the world is not complete until humans are fully united to God's own life and love. Hm. I can't think of a more profound statement to say about God and

The Garden of Eden doesn't focus on itself in the story as a state of perfection. Is that more a platonic kind of narrative? Uh yeah, that's right. I'm not a expert in Greek philosophy or anything. But that the idea is that there exists ideal realities and that um all physical reality is just a shadow of some perfect realities. And so um And uh just the Bible doesn't think like that. It it thinks of

It looks at our world that says, Man, there's so much good and amazingness. Clearly there's something beautiful and good at the heart of all this, but it's also so screwed up at the same time. How did we get here? and what kind of God is in charge of things, if this is where we're at. And so the biblical story provides an explanation of who God is and what God's purposes are, both for to explain the world around us but also to explain who Jesus is and where the world's going in light of Jesus.

Yeah. So the the perfection of God's world can only take place once its potential is realized in the image of God. And that's what the story of Jesus is about. So I think the reason why we're spinning or I'm spinning on this idea of perfection so much is because This idea of being in partnership with God as image bearers

who reign on his behalf. That paradigm only really makes sense when you have this narrative. I mean there's no point in reigning when there's perfection. Yeah. You're just lounging when there's perfection. Right? That's you're just by the pool drinking Margarita is enjoying perfection. Right. In yeah, in the platonic view or something like that. In the platonic view, I guess. I mean you're maybe raining in that you're asking the

The waiter to bring you another margarita. Yeah, another martini. Another martini. But there's no but there's no you're not b expanding a garden. You're not you're not moving the human project forward in any way. Yeah, what is there to do or accomplish? What would you have? It's j it's it's perfect.

So so to understand what it means to be the image of God in Genesis one, before mm before the tree of the knowledge, good and evil, you have to have room in your brain, the shelf in your brain that says There is a state. Or there is a time in the story where there's a connection to God and you are reigning and building and exploring. And it's good. And it's good. And so but any time there's exploring and building and those kind of things there's conflict. Right.

I don't right. You can't really explore without conflict. You can't really build something of importance without running into difficulties and conflict. Yeah, yeah. So that's where I think the biblical story challenges our idea. of the perfect world that had no trouble or conflict or mosquitoes right before the fall of humanity. Right. Um Yeah, and the biblical story doesn't say that there wouldn't have been earthquakes or mosquitoes or any or or before the fall.

So I think what's so challenging to me is I had this very clean mental construct. of this Platonic perfection. Right. And I mean it's fuzzy because what does it actually mean? Yeah. I don't know. But it was clean in the sense of like, okay, we live forever, there's no death, there's no pain and I does that mean there's no mosquitoes? I don't know. Let's not get think about too hard, but but at least it's clean. And now You're taking that away from me.

And I I think that's where I feel a little dizzy. I just feel like okay, well then what what does that look like? What is it like I'm trying to just imagine it. Do you have something in your mind when you imagine it? Well sh uh sure. I mean the the most Consistent analogies about God and his people in the scriptures and in the biblical story are there's a parent child

relationship or a husband wife relationship. But the parent child's a good one. So think of you and I both have little children right now. So when our kids were infants Think. Like months one to nine before they could really do much except cry and the belly. Yeah, so there's was that perfect? In terms of your relationship with that child, was it perfect? I don't know, they haven't

hurt you yet. They haven't said they hate you and go away and why'd you take my truck away? And like they haven't. So in that in the sense it it's good. There's this untarnished connection but it's But that's because it's potential yet. Like the story's just moving. And then the child and the parent have choices to make about how they're gonna relate and get on with life and build a family together. And that can go good or bad.

And usually it's both. And that's kind of the point of the biblical story is It's something like that. So uh there's no way you can envision a parent's relationship to an infant as perfect. That we haven't gone anywhere yet. You have to ha tell the story of the building of the family. And then in the biblical story then there's all this conflict and the God overcomes that with a great act of love.

uh, and becoming the human that we can't be for ourselves. And so perfection comes with the full healing of that relationship so that the parent and child can now get on with the project and peace. Perfection is about the healing of the the relationship. Relationship so that the s the project can go on. So there's a so the purpose is the project.

I guess maybe like the the the the mental shelf is like God wants to build something with us. Yeah. And like you said, like like the incarnation just shows that God just he he'll go to great lengths to make sure that humans are part of this equation. As he creates Yeah

I don't know. I just wasn't that's not something I was taught in Sunday school. I I I think it was like Yeah. Like I said, I think the reason why earlier I ha I mentioned Um the chief end of man is to to glorify God um and enjoy him forever. That to me feels kind of platonic. Mm-hmm. It just feels like so my my And and the purpose of humans within that is pretty static. Yeah. It's just to exist.

And not messobey and to praise and honor. So when someone looks at me, they'll go, Oh yeah, go God's pretty great'cause that guy d isn't blowing it. I mean just kind of like I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so that that's why we're having this conversation in a video about the image of God. Humans do something with God on God's behalf to work

and m take the world somewhere. Which is what we were talking about in the Covenants video. That's correct. Actually that just struck me. I was like the image of God video is in many ways Very similar to the Covenants video God wants to partner. But it is different. It's not about partnership, it's about representation. Representation. And on behalf of. So that I think the mental shelf is in this in the image of God story

humans are created to be and enlisted as full representations of himself in the world. And in god apparently in God's mind He wants to share the cultivation and growing of a world rather than just do it within his own community of love, if you believe in the Trinity. Right. Um so the the fundamental portrait of the image is of God is that God wants to share. his love and creativity and opportunity to make and create

And have relationships. He wants to share it with as many creatures as possible. So maybe this is helpful. There's kind of two paradigms we've been messing with. One is for the ancient Near Eastern thinker, the image of God is challenging because Uh or this is uh this is a really revolutionary thought because they only thought the king was the image of God and now this is saying no everyone is.

So it's very democratic. And we could talk about how uh Western civilization has really grown up with that idea. Um, so there's that. But then it's also challenging to our very modern pr Christian perspective, at least that I grew up in, which is you're here because God made you to his glory, you're not glorifying him. Learn to glorify him so that one day you could be in heaven. The image of God is also challenging to that.

Because it's saying well well no look, we're supposed to be representing God's task of creation in in some way. So um like we could tackle it from either angle. Yeah, and in both of those There's a diminishment of the significance of human beings. Right. So either human beings or the peasants that are supposed to just serve the king. It's only the elite few who get really to know and represent the gods. and in the modern view, it's that the human task and the honor

That Psalm eight uses to describe humans is diminished. We're just I I there's this sense of that God's just putting up with us. Yeah. Yeah, and I th Psalm eight disagrees. It's it's like Psalm eight says humans are glorious beings that you w would almost think you're looking at a god. Right. And they have amazing capacity and capabilities.

um to as a creature in the world to do things with the world that no other creature can do. It's re Psalm Mate's really an amazing meditation on hu the significance of humans that um yeah, that much of kind of the modern Christian narrative uh just doesn't it's just not even on the radar. But also also what this enriched view of the image of God does is that

If the... If the... nature of human beings is so much greater than you know, whatever the common Christian view is, then it makes the cor the moral corruption and the tragedy of the human story even that much more tragic and sad. Right? Just for the same reason that defacing a little G. I. Joe action figure and tossing it in the mud is less tragic than a a gold statue that topples over. So I suppose, yeah, within certain Christian traditions, exalting the nature of humanity.

could be dangerous. But that's what but that's w that is why the New Testament authors call Jesus the capital T H E image of God,'cause he's like He's the glorious human. He's like if there's anything, he's the reality of which you and I are just shadows because of our own moral compromise. And that's what C. S. Lewis I think was getting at in the weight of glory.

What you're hearing here is uh I brought up the Westminster Confession of Faith again to talk about this idea that the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. We wanted to go back and look at connect to where that was written and and so we're pulling that up. So that's interesting. So the Westminster Confession of Faith. uh is a statement of faith of the Church of England. Okay. So w uh Church of England

Or the Anglican Church, right, is was the England's response and result of the Reformation. Okay. It was sort of like the English Catholic Church. Taking on the reformed critique. and then reforming itself as a state church, but kind of as a way to correct everything that w they thought was wrong with the Catholic Church. So that's so the Westminster Confession was a thirty three chapter

theological statement. N T Wright's Anglican, right? He is, yep. Yep. So that's what NT Wright means when he says he's broadly a part of the reformed tradition. Right. He's not necessarily talking about um

developments of that in America were like the Presbyterian tradition. So um and then the shorter catechism was also completed by the Westminster Assembly. So these were both teaching tools of the Anglican Church about a summary of the story and teachings and message of the Bible and I gotta imagine that there's still a lot of confusion about, okay, what do we really believe then after the Reformation?

Mm in the Catholic Church. And so they sat down to just catalogue, okay, here's where we're at. Yep. Yeah, that's right. And so as we become Anglican, something new than than what we were. Yeah. Um let's just make sure we're all on the same page. That's right. And so the shorter catechism begins with Two. Questions. It's a series of a hundred and seven questions with short one sentence answers with lots of Bible verses attached. But the first question is what is the chief and

or the chief purpose of human beings. And this is such an interesting question to me and I think it's actually a potential hook for this video is in in in plain English it Why did God create humans? Yeah. Right? Yeah. What are humans for? What are humans for? In in got God's purposes for the world. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then the answer in the catechism

is man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. And then does it then that's it? Does it say what it means by that? Um no, there's lots of Bible verses attached. about um s yeah, so then there's Bible verses quoting from the Psalms that say, All the nations you have made will come and worship before you to bring glory to your name. Yeah. That's a Yeah, it's from so from Psalm eighty six. Uh so Psalm eighty Six is a prayer.

Of that God would have mercy and fulfill his great promises, even though it seems like none of them are coming true. Mm-hmm. And one of the great prophetic scenes in the Bible is of all nations gathered around giving praise and honor and glory to God as the creator. But it all but it assumes a storyline that all nations are not currently doing that.

So uh so no two ends about it. Like that is a big motif in the Bible is of humanity praising and giving honor. But is that the purpose of humanity? Exactly. Does the Bible does the Bible, in the way it describes And so I think that's the danger of proof texting is you can say, oh, okay, here's a verse that says humans will worship God and bring him glory from all over the earth. And then say that's proof.

that the purpose of humanity is to glorify God. Mm-hmm. And then you get this written in a catechism and then people sh say it. It's a really easy quip. Mm-hmm. The chief end of man is to glorify God. Enjoy him forever. And

Yeah. That might not be the whole story. Yeah. So I think what we're interested in i not necessarily if the shorter catechism got it wrong or something like that. I think what we're interested in is that it has gone on to create a culture in in Protestant Christianity and then American Christianity where the purpose of humans is basically like bystanders.

Right. God's doing his deal. We just stand around and we're meant to sh shout praise and honor to God'cause he's way better than us. Yeah. I'm not saying that's not what the Westminster Assembly intended, but that is the kind of culture that has been created by that. What they intended? Oh, uh I'm I'm sure there's commentary. I'm sure I'm sure if I could find where that topic's covered in the longer confession. Don't have don't have to be a good thing.

thing. Yeah, it's a good point. Like what yeah, I wonder what if they were reacting to anything or if they I mean I guess it it makes sense as a as a first thing. What what's purpose of man? That's a great place to start. Mm-hmm. But another great place to start is what's the nature of God. So I mean, it's interesting they do start here. What's the purpose of man? But l but yeah, let's talk about the bystander thing. So like

I it's an interesting image to me. When I think of a bystander, I think of someone y i if you watch people working on like the road when you drive by And there's like three guys working on this digging a hole or something and two guys are watching and like one guy's actually doing the work. Have you ever seen that?

Yeah, totally. And you're like, what's going on with my tax dollars? Yeah, what's going on with my tax Two guys are bystanding and one guy's working. I mean, they're supervising, so that's a bad that's a bad um illustration. But or like if I came over to your house And you and and your wife were working on a new garden box.

And I cruise over and I'm standing in your driveway watching you and you guys are working, sawing, nailing it together, pouring in the soil, and I'm just standing there talking with you. Yes. And I'm not helping at all. I'm just bystanding. Yeah. Or uh to paint it in the picture of the question and answer of the catechism. It would be you would be standing by obligated by nature to praise my wife and I. Yeah. To shout our praises

About before we were doing. Right. So my role there in your driveway would to be to make sure everyone knew that you guys were really good at life. Yeah, or creating planter boxes. So someone would walk by there on thirty-fourth street and then and I'd be like Hey Tim and Jessica are amazing And then and um that person would walk by, you guys would feel good about that, I'd feel good about that. Mm-hmm And at any point when I get

tired I need to go do something else, I could peace out and you guys can just continue to work. Right. And and then that won't be a problem. Right. You you will have fulfilled your purpose. Right. Namely to to observe and to praise.

Yeah. The people who are actually r making things happen. Doing the work. When we say glorify, the chief endament is to glorify God. What people think of is worship services. Right. Where people s sit Or stand passively. Yeah. Singing about the wonder and goodness of God. Yes.

And and then I'm trained from childhood, which is the purpose of the shorter catechism, to say that's my purpose in life is to do that for God. And then you get this picture of eternity being one long worship service. Yeah. Again, so we're picking on the catechism. I it's not the the catechism isn't the problem. The the point is is that the catechism

amongst a whole bunch of other things, creates a culture of belief saying this is what the story of the Bible is, this is what Christians believe. And the story of the Bible begins with something that's d m way more interesting and that depicts humans as much, much more than bystanders. Can we push the metaphor further with the um planner box, I'm wondering like so there's this sense of I'm a bystander and I I'm giving you I'm giving you praise and glory, and I'm enjoying it.

Right. That's part of it too. I'm supposed to enjoy it. I like it. Yeah, you'll get a carrot or two out of the deal and I just feel good when I'm there in the driveway. When I leave the driveway, I'm like I just can't wait to go back and just watch Tim work on its planner box. I just love being in the presence of Tim. And so I'm uncomfortable with this. We could use another person as well. Yeah, no, that's fine. And but what happens is when I leave the driveway, man, life is tough.

Hm. I'm just I'm getting beat up. I'm uh I'm constantly finding myself sad and people are dying around me and there's just death and destruction. But in that driveway I feel good. And one day I can Live in that driveway forever. Mm. Mm. Mm. One day I'm gonna be able to just sit there for all eternity. I never have to worry about anything else. In fact everyone who I love will be there with me in the driveway and we'll be watching you Temp Plant just make this beautiful garden.

In your backyard. And that's so that's kind of this narrative of of the bystander, I suppose. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So and that's that's also that's painting a a version of the story in which everything else in the world is Broken and sinful virtual. Except you. So I think in the way that traditional, even reformed theology or the catechism would say, but you yourself have your issues, like maybe you're jealous of my carrot growing abilities and

you want to go g grow your own planter box of carrots instead of sit around and watch me. You think you could do a better job. Yeah. And then I do, I try to go do it myself and and and my and my f my friends go, Oh, John's really backsliding. We need to get him back in the presence of Tim. Yeah, if he was in the presence anymore. But Yeah, if you were back in the driveway, you observing the

Glory of The Real Garden. The real garden. Then you'd be like, Oh how stupid of me to try and grow my own. Yeah. Yeah. That's about but the common denominator through all of this is that um you You're you're a bystander offering worship and praise, being grateful for what's given to you, enjoying the presence of the ideal, you know, in the driveway. Right. But but um

Yeah, it's so interesting. That's that's the purpose of man. That's why you exist. Yeah. Aga again in I think in a popular understanding and what's been created by a culture of something like the Westminster Catechism. Uh, that that's the vision of what humans are for.

Yeah, I think this isn't a good reason for not believing something, just that it's not is that it's not compelling. But that's not com very compelling. Not really. And it's that's a str and that was a strange thing in my spirituality growing up, is it's not compelling, but you have to believe it is. Otherwise like You're missing out. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And maybe for some people that is. I think actually I think that there is something to be said about.

Enjoying a really amazing worship service. Yes. And I don't and I don't do it that much because I'm this like rational skeptic guy who can't get out of his own head and just enjoy the moment of life. So that's my own problem. Yeah. But Uh but so I'm not I'm not saying that's bad. I I think that's beautiful. Um Yeah. And I s this is probably a good moment to pause and to say that is a uh a significant Theme. running throughout the story is of God's goodness and glory. Um when people have

encounters with God's presence, they're overwhelmed by its beauty and wonder and so that that is and that is to be enjoyed. Yeah. And w and whoever can come up with and execute a plan to m make a world such as we live in is way is superior to me. Yeah, and when we are and when we are in his presence, it will be awesome. Totally.

So that's not the qu that's not we're not saying God's not glorious. What we're saying is if you're trying to summarize the message and story of the Bible Is it adequate or faithful to the story to say the chief purpose of humans in the Bible? beaut amazing about watching you garden. Garden plant carrots. But if you were in the presence of God, watching God do his thing. Mm-hmm. Right if you were in God's presence and he's like making the universe, you would be blown away.

And it and it would be enjoyable. Yes. It would be enjoyable. And but th now we're back to what's so interesting, I th and surprising about how the Bible begins,'cause it does depict God. in the ten acts of speaking and six days of creating as this you know, this royal artist spinning wor world into being. And just imagine being there. It would have been So So that's remarkable.

But then what's surprising about where the story of the Bible goes is then humans are appointed as the pinnacle of that creation and then are given divine authority and responsibility to continue on what God has been doing. So to go back to the gardening metaphor. Go back to the gardening metaphor then. It wouldn't be hey I'm just hanging out with

You in the driveway. It would be you going, Hmm, John, let's build this garden together. Yes. Yeah. Like come over here, grab a shovel. Yep. Like let's let's get our hands together. And actually I'm gonna you've seen me work? Now I'm gonna do hands off and you you're gonna take over the planter box now on my charge of this planter box. Yeah. And I'll guide and instruct you if you trust me. Right. But uh I've what is going to W bring me the most joy is to let you really

come to maturity in taking responsibility. And then not just that, go and expand this. Expand it. Make the garden box spread out to the yard and the street and the street and then the whole city. That's right. Maybe jackhammer the asphalt. And put garden there too. Yeah. And uh that's right. Yeah, I think that's the story. Uh I yeah. I think what we're saying what we want to say in this video and what we're discussing here is

I think we would humbly suggest to Westminster Thor a revision. A revision that would be the chief hand of man is to represent God. Yes. Image God. To image God. and to gratefully praise and honor God for giving us such amazing responsibility and generosity and potential to take this world somewhere. Yeah. And to live in dependence on the creator's wisdom and guidance. But the chief end of man, according to page one of the Bible, is to image and represent God. Yeah.

And to be glorious representatives. And so that doesn't mean that another great thing about being human is that you get to enjoy God forever. And glorify him. Or not even a great thing, but a a role, uh something that humans should be doing. But if you're gonna say what's the chief end, what's the That's right the main purpose Yeah. Yeah. So humans will by nature bring honor to their creator if they are images. I mean the point of an image is to represent the a reality.

So in the same way that a statue of a really famous person is meant to glorify that person. Real yeah, bring honor to that person. So the glory the glorify God is built into the idea of image, but m there's more to the image that we're that we're saying. Glorifying God is a result. It's a result.

Of humans doing what they were called to do, which is to represent God and to share in God's rule and stewardship of the world. So part of the problem then of this narrative that we're we're deconstructing is That it begins with the result. Yeah. Instead of the Yeah, purpose. Purpose.

It calls the result the purpose. Yeah, that's right. There's much more to it th than glorifying God and enjoying him forever. That's a result of humans doing what their purpose is. But but their purpose w we're saying is something different that the catechism doesn't touch on. And and that different purpose is what this video is gonna be about. The image of God. Pastorally, what do you think i are the implications here? Like what what's the danger or the deficit of believing the bystander?

Well, humans by definition are going to do what Genesis 1 says our purpose is. Yeah. M meaning to go into the world with the purpose and to take what's in front of me, make it into new combinations and so whether it putting buns on hamburgers or, you know, arranging information for a database or answering phone calls or making garden. So humans by nature r reproduce, make communities and do that. The question isn't

Oh, people aren't gonna do that. I think the question is, is that huge here's what it is huge swathes of human life and experience. what we give our time and energy to for the most part, all of a sudden fits into a divine purpose. Right. What I do at work, what I do in vocation, what I do in my yard or it all gets all comes under the umbrella of to represent God's God as his image.

Um, but the moment the bystander narrative is your world view, then pretty much the only time you're doing your divine purpose is when you're at church. Right. So or when you're reading your Bible and praying. It plays into this secular sacred division. Yes, yeah, I think so. That's interesting. Yeah, I think so.

It like adds fuel it adds fuel to that. Not that it's not right,'cause like it's useful at times to make a distinction between secular and sacred. Mm-hmm. But but then it's also destructive to take it too far and then not realize that when you work

That's a sacred task. That's right. And you don't have to be at church in order to experience the divine. Yeah, I think so, yeah. The tragedy p I think as a pastor is when somebody thinks that to really follow Jesus or for their life to have meaning before God, they need to

go into vocational ministry work working at a local church. Yeah. A and get out of their career in marketing or So this is what Jeff Van Duzer, the professor of business and theology a at Seattle Pacific University talks about a lot in his book. And does he does he start the have you read the book? No, I heard him give a talk and summarize it. I've heard yeah, I've heard his talk on YouTube. I I'll put that in the show notes. Um Why Business Matters to God by Jeff Van Duzer.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, the talk was really useful and in uh uh you're looking at the table of contents. Does he have anything about image of God in there? Uh the first chapter is in the beginning. Okay. So it's a theology of Genesis one and two. Of work and human. Is he? Well oh oh this is great.

What's he saying? So here's Jeff Van Dusa. The Westminster Catechism, shorter catechism begins this way What's the chief end of man? Glorify God and enjoy him together. And he asked the question Is that all we can say about God's purpose? Mm-hmm. Right. To glorify and enjoy. Or can we say something more? Oh yeah, so Uh so many Christians have what he calls a instrumental view of business. It's simply a tool.

to help you share your faith with other people, talk about just a lot of people. Right. Like in our metaphor of the driveway, it's like why would you go have a job outside the driveway? Mm. Well, so that to help you bring other people to the driveway. Yeah, that's the thing. That's the reason. Yeah. To give yourself resources So that you have extra time to hang out in the driveway more. And so you could bring your family there. And so you could bring your friends there.

In fact we let's get let's throw a wh party in the driveway. We need a lot of resources for that, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And who's got the resources? The businessmen. That's right. They go get the business and dollars. And women. And I'm using I'm using it in the gender neutral sense. The business people, um, they they make all the money and who cares how they're making it. Mm-hmm. Like

They're making it. I mean let's don't kill anyone. Yeah. Yeah. And like don't don't tell us too much about what's going on in sweatshops. But Make the money and then let's use the money to throw the party in the driveway so that everyone can enjoy God forever. Mm-hmm. Sorry, I'm listening to you and I'm also this is a great chapter. Uh he has a whole section on the image of God. Good. um related to work.

And work having not instrumental value. Yeah, it's not an instrument to then go and do something else. But work having an intrinsic value. That's what he calls it. Because if you're gonna image God, mm-hmm, if you're going to be representing God and building and expanding the garden, that takes work. And so why why does business matter to God? Because business

is a vehicle in which we work. Mm-hmm. And work is what expands the garden and expanding the garden is what our role as humans. The garden is a metaphor. Yes.

Yes. Yeah. Page page thirty three. In business terms You could say Genesis one is about God making his initial capital investment. He richly endows the earth with resources. Adam and Eve were the emission initial managers called to creatively organize and manage And enhanced the the productivity of the garden in a sustainable manner. In addition, the work that Christians do is to reflect the work of God. which includes meaningful work that produces something good.

Yeah. So that that's the vision. That's pretty smooth that he kind of threw in there that God's a capitalist. I know. Subtle. Subtle subtle. So I think um I'm glad man, I'm glad we're having this conversation right now. I think this is a huge implication out of understanding the image of God is all of a sudden more of my mundane

activities in life fall under the umbrella of glorifying God. Yeah. And actually forces you to rethink all of your daily activities. Yeah. As representing how am I representing God in this situation. But even the word representation is is a little bit maybe too shallow. Yeah, that's true. That's not enough. It's not just representation. How am I working with God? How am I working for God Yeah. How am I expanding the garden? I mean how do you say that without using a metaphor?

Because I'm not gardening. Right. Yeah, yeah, totally. So it would be much easier if I was just a gardener. Yeah. How do I push the human project forward? You look at what you do with your relationship. in family and work, like employment or career or vocation. And you say what does it mean to develop all of these forward? And that looks different in every circumstance, but y develop it, carry it forward, build this.

in a way that promotes love of neighbor, love of God. Jesus' teachings. That benefits people, that serves them, that creates environ relational environments where people are safe and healthy and can grow. So th that's why the garden image actually is so good. Yeah. Right. 'Cause you need both an in you need to invest energy in a garden. Mm-hmm. Uh but also to invest energy is to create an environment where things can become their best, where the tomatoes can become their ripest and so on.

So that's work in the ground, that's work tending the vines themselves. So gardening is a great metaphor. So whether you're working at a you know, at a grocery store line, how do I make people's experience in this Coming through my line, something that Allows them to make them love other people. Yeah. And that will will create a great environment for their existence for the few minutes that they're in this line.

And then also you're a an employee, so you're working along a line of a whole bunch of other employees. What am I doing to contribute to the culture of the checkout line in the grocery store? And I If you've ever had the experience of walking away from a checkout line going like that lady was rad Yeah.

She was funny and she's she's like chatting back with her coworkers and creating a little community experience in the checkout line. And I say you'll carry that with you the whole rest of the afternoon or something. And that's what we're talking about. It doesn't matter what you do. Now, but you've said I wanna put some brakes on this, because you said let's not be naive and think that we can Sure. Create heaven on earth or

realize the kingdom of God in our lives right now. Um so while we're pursuing it, there's this sense of, yeah, th but the kingdom of God is still not here. There's still problems. Yeah. Um Yeah, or it's not fully

It's not fully here or it's not here as consistently or fully as I would hope hope it to be. And there's kind of two tracks. There's the the uh the well let's figure out how to make it more here. Let's use technology, let's use human ingenuity. Expand the garden. Yes. Like find more tools to make the tomatoes more ripe and more plentiful and that people are taken care of. Yes.

And you can explain it without any recourse to the Bible and then you can explain it from within the Bible. So without recourse to the Bible, just life is complex. And anything that you or I do is inevitably going to be flawed by my own shortcomings and lack of knowledge and skill then I exist in a world with billions of other people who have a different vision of where the world should go. We create a tool thinking this tool is gonna help us flourish like a shovel.

And then someone takes that shovel and uses it to kill someone. Yeah. Or to dig a pit. Or to dig a pit. And put sticks over it so that people will fall into it. And then they can sell those people as slaves. Yes. Yeah. So there's just uh Sorry, we're not you asked a really great question. My life is about Using my imagination, ingenuity, creativity, work ethic, all these things to push the human project forward for the glory of God because

w we can't I can we we're the image of God. We can we can do this. Yes. But that's not all the biblical story has to say. The biblical story is also Trying to describe what and how we're in a world that is so clearly not heaven on earth. And that has to do with. The knowledge of good and evil. Right. It has to do with uh the fact that we can't trust one another fully and it has to do with the fact that we all think much more highly of ourselves than we ought.

And so we end up creating things that are for the benefit of me and my group, but not for yours. Or I d just because of lack of knowledge or skill, I make something that I think is gonna be helpful and actually it creates as many problems in the world as well. So some people would say the solution to that is just education. That's possible. has taught us that simply knowing the right and good thing to do isn't

Does not make humans do the right and good thing. There's that and then there's the problem of being able to actually know what the right and good thing to do is. Yeah, that's right. Which is is that part of why in the story it's the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yes. Yes, it's a yeah, yeah. And we're all the way back to what is it for the image of God to be restored in humans in the story of the Bible?

So hold on, let's back up. There's a there's a tree. So we got we got humanity in the image of God. Yes. God plants a tree in the garden, and it's called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And if mm-hmm if you eat it you'll surely die. Right. Okay. So why so that That's weird. story. Uh but like how is that related to this idea of knowing the difference between good and evil or knowing what is good and what is evil? Why is that gonna kill me and how's that connected to the the Yeah.

So think of how think of and again, th so it's a it's a story, but it's a text, so you have to pay attention to the meanings of words and the way words get used. So in the story up to that point, what do I know about good? or not good. Okay. Um so what I know is that the word good has been used really strategically in the story to talk about what God thinks about the world as he's making it. So we know that God is the creator, provider

of good and that good is something he really wants to pack this world full of. But also that God knows therefore what is not good'cause he's trying to make good. Right. So In order to make something good you have to know. Yeah. That's right. So when we get to the tree of this knowledge of what is good and what is not good, you have to f fit the story together.

You have to go, okay, this tree represents God's ability to make this universe. To know uh uh and not just that in a good way. But to know what is best. Is it I mean there's all these Great moral puzzles about like the best and the good. I don't think the biblical n narrative is trying to talk about philosophical ideas of what is best or good. It's not what is good in Genesis one?

Um, it's things that are conducive to the flourishing of life and then uh for the flourishing of human communities. Well why can't I n I know that? Oh, I th I think we do know it. But I'm not supposed to eat of the tree. Oh. Well human beings are by nature, because they are the image, going to go about the project of carrying Which means I should know good from evil.

Uh and I shouldn't I should have a knowledge of good and by definition, humans are gonna be making decisions about what is good and what is not good as you go about having families and building neighbours and communities and that paradigm I gave you this tree to help you with the human project. Uh I want you to know good from evil. Okay. But so the point is is that but there there is a point at which human beings have to fundamentally trust God's

as the provider and definer of what is good and not good and not trust what might seem very natural to us. I think that's what the story is trying to get out. Well yeah. But the a tree doesn't that a tree represent like a gift? Like the fruit of a tree. It's like I'm I am I'm eating of this tree and I'm taking it as a gift. So I don't know. I get this picture of the point of the tree is because there's a tree of life. Right? Yes. And so taking from the tree of life is taking the gift of life.

Yeah. But then there's this other tree and it represents knowing good from evil and I need to know that as if I'm gonna expand the garden. Mm. So w so I I think but the in the story, the tree represents a way of knowing that. that is off limits or that will bring death to us. The tree is not a gift. Somehow this tree represents a choice that actually is going to threaten everything that's good.

if humans take it. Um and that and why the tree, that gets into some of the cultural background of these narratives. Ca'cause the idea of sacred trees in the presence of a of a god, um, representing something from the god. Uh that's a motif in bab ancient Babylonian literature. Mm-hmm. So we're tying into a theme. It'd be interesting to read some of that. Yeah, super intri super interesting.

Um the tree of life is not a unique theme to the Bible. That's a very common ancient Near Eastern image. We have pict we have drawings of it in from Egypt and ancient Babylonia. Anyway, so in the narrative the tree represents here's Something that is that belongs to the divine and the sacred. It's within the sacred presence in the tree. and here's all of this that's good, image of God, go take it. But there are going to be choices before the humans Where they are going to have to trust and

God's vision of what is good and not good and not execute on their own instinct of what they think is good and not good. I I th that's my reading of what the tree is.

That makes sense as a reading. Uh uh. smart people who as the stories about. So as you imagine so I mean you kinda have to f fill in a lot of the blanks. Maybe this is too dangerous to do. But I'm imagining The humans. Adam and Eve. Imaging God, building the garden, not eating from that tree. Is God giving them then relationally the knowledge of good and evil? Mm-hmm. Because they're not seizing it from the tree.

I think something like that in the narrative is implied. Again, it's a narrative full of all these images. So um it also isn't completely clear, and this has been a matter of debate throughout history about that story, is

would the humans at some point have access to it? Right. At a certain point of m is this about maturity? The humans aren't ready for it yet? Um, in which case going back to the planter boxes really is this about me giving my four year old son freedom over the planter box, but I'm asking him to trust me and to not move forward on his instincts of how to grow carrots. I'm asking him to trust me. And then I'm also saying, listen, there's a manual about how to grow carrots

And you just need to trust me when I teach you from the manual. Don't try and read the manual on your own. Let me just teach you how to do this. Well and if that was the case, we'd probably see the tree of the knowledge of Geneva show up again in Revelation twenty two, right? Um uh yeah. Well it just disappears. It disappears. Um but but again the tree and the command about the tree is what gets I think picked up.

in the stories of Sinai, with the Tabernacle and the Torah as these gifts to Israel of the divine presence, and then of the Torah to instruct them on how to To live a good life. Live a good life. And then the way that gets picked up in uh the messianic fulfillment is that Jesus and the spirit become the the sources of life and the it's the spirits imparting this knowledge of good and evil. Are you so there? I'm kind of picturing a new theme video.

of the theme of the knowledge of good and evil. Like, start with the tree, then go to Sinai, And then you go to Jesus saying that the great command is love and then really it turns into love and Holy Spirit stuff. Right? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil turns into love. Yeah, that's an interesting video. Yeah, I mean, but am I am I reading too much in I me that that's what I heard you kind of outlining. Yeah. That the tree

represents that. Yeah. I've never heard anyone explain that before. There's Torah and Temple. Is this biblical? Are we are we Have we have we left the realm of biblical theology? No, no, no, no. The idea that Israel is a parallel to Adam and Eve in the garden, that's very c that's all I'm doing. That's very clear. But then but then jumping to Jesus. Does the theme of the n the the command and the three spirit the spirit is about

recreating humans to their to the image of God, i. e. Jesus. And for Jesus the Torah was pointing to love of God and neighbor. Yeah. So if so if you extrapolate this out. If Jesus' great command is a synthesis of the Torah and the Torah is a It's another iteration iteration of a divine command. Story of the divine divine command of God. And the antithesis okay. But the antithesis of the divine command is eating the tree.

So the tree isn't correlated to the Ten Commandments. That's not the same thing. Mm mm. No. No. Okay. So the tree's gone. The tree is about a choice. So the tree is in in the Sinai covenant is um blessing and curses. Yes. Are you gonna obey or are you gonna obey or not gonna obey? So then in and Jesus as he talks about it That's why Moses That's why Moses says in Deuteronomy at the end of the Torah

He echoes the words from the beginning of the Torah. He says, Listen, Israel, I set before you good and evil, life and death. blessing or curse. Yeah. Which is garden metaphor imagery. Yeah, it's all imagery f from and words from Genesis one through three. And so for Israel to obey the Torah and to go into the promised land is the p is the equivalent of the choice that's before the humans in the garden. And then when Jesus picks up the law, Israel shows it's it does not and cannot

Obey the divine command. Just like the first humans couldn't did not, and now we learn could not. Or at least chose not to. That's well. Sorry. That's a whole other rabbit hole. So Adam and Eve choose to eat the fruit. Mhm. Um which in the same way Israel Mm-hmm. I mean can't Yeah, ignores God's guidance and and disobeys. Disobeys. Goes in exile. Yeah. Adam and Eve are kicked out of the garden. Mm-hmm. Israel goes in exile. Yeah. Um and then we get to Jesus. And Jesus says

he came to fulfill the law. He obeys it this perfectly as the true human. He then summarizes that the the law No, he doesn't summarize the law. He says the greatest command is love God and love neighbors. Mm-hmm. Is that a summary or a uh is he just making a hierarchy of commands? Well he says all the other commands hang on that. Okay, so it's in some way um a caps like a yeah. What's a good image there? It's the essence. It's the essence. It's the essence of the law. Um and then

Is there anything that parallels the blessing and curses in Jesus' teaching? Um Sh uh sure. I mean it's the result th that's the result of how you respond to the choice. Right. How does Jesus talk about it? Uh if you listen to my words you'll be like a wise person who builds their house on a rock. And if you don't listen to me, you're stupid and you're building your house on the sand. So that could be parallel.

Um, do this and you'll be blessed. Mm-hmm. Don't do this and you'll Yeah. Yeah. Or when he sits above Jerusalem and says, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you know, if only you would allow me, if I could take you as a chick under my wings. you didn't recognize the time of your visitation, you've rejected what could have been

things of peace. That's a that's a paraphrase, but he says you you rejected the things that could have brought Shalom. So yeah, Jesus was very clear that he was forcing his contemporaries with a choice. And that to follow him was to obey the Torah and to fulfill fulfill Israel's calling and to fulfill the the human purpose.

He was very clear about that. Yeah. So practically so he presents the choice. He presents the choice as well. And then to follow him is paradoxically to die. Uh, but also in, you know, taking up your cross, that kind of thing.

But then that's where the whole how does that fit into that whole theme? Well there we're back to'cause you weren't supposed to that you like ideas. Humans have made a world where death is the reality and so who's gonna confront death and deal with that consequence and that What the cross is about. And then so this this theology of the spirit in the New Testament then becomes this B the blessing. The way to embrace, the way that God's blessing

I choose if I will keep in step with the spirit, the spirit grows fruit. It's garden imagery. The spirit grows fruit in me. And it's this ethical renewal and transformation that will affect every part of how I garden with my life. So are we still in some way as Jesus followers confronted with the choice of Or with the command, don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Uh sure. Yes. That's why yeah, the garden's the garden story It's both making a claim about the

history in some way that as far back as we can tell humans have m been making the wrong choice. But then it's a choice also that's in front of every person every day. Which practically what what would that look like? So it's a choice where um Yeah. Practically Like is there's something that I choose to do'cause I want it's good I think it's good for me. Mm-hmm. But actually it's n it's not good. That's theoretical. Right. So just let's just start supplying examples.

I mean there's easy ones, you know. Whatever. Uh heroin shooting up heroin feels very good, so I hear. Yeah. Um, but I think it's really bad. Right. For you. And it's bad on all the people around you. So that's a that's an extreme example. Whatever. I don't know. I've I've never run a business.

business owners, something that are good for the business and their good economic decisions, but actually they have a negative effect on the culture of the workplace and the employees. Oh totally. That kind of thing. That's that kind of brings us to something I wanted to talk to you more about, which is just the the ethical dimension of this. You're saying this this it seems like you're saying this is all about ethics.

And um Christianity isn't just about being ethical, it's about um a relationship, right? I mean that's kind of the that's the quip I hear a lot, is like it's not religion it's not religion, it's relationship. Yeah. Um so Yeah, but relationships are really horrible if you're in a relationship with a jerk. A relationship with a heroin addict is hard. Yeah, and a relationship with a really bitter, angry, selfish person is almost impossible.

And and so Yeah. When I say the ethical renewal of humans, it's about relationships. And tie this into the gospel then, with the hope of the gospel. Yeah, the hope. Is that if I'm honest with myself, I know that I made and called and should be a certain kind of person that I perpetually fail to be or that I only am inconsistently. To be the image of God. Yeah, the image of God, love God, love neighbor, love people all the time. So people do lots of people most people do that.

a lot of the time. Right. None of us do it all the time. Sure. And none of us do it consistently, some more than others. And so a huge piece is that that has created grave consequences of tragedy and death in our world. that inconsistency and that flaw. So the consequence has to be dealt with, death and the mess of human evil. There's a relationship that's been fractured. I'm an image bearing human, no longer fully bearing the image. And so I've

both offended, but then also I'm misrepresenting God. So that's the relationship that's broken that needs to be dealt with now. And there's just then my state. The results for me personally are are um my own moral compromise. And I don't know. We've we talked about this in the video with about approaching middle age. Was that in the law? I don't know which one. Yeah, just as you get older you realize you're not the as you get out of your twenties. Yeah. The thirties

is the decade of realizing you're not who you thought you would become. And for the few people who do become what they thought they would become, the forties and the fifties, surely, are the decades of At least recognizing you're a mixed bag. Yeah. And so the my own ethical renewal, my the renewal

of my heart and mind to always be a person that loves and prioritizes others and that's selfless and that will give. Th that's you know, the the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. goodness, faithfulness and self control. Mm-hmm. And man, to be I would love to be a kind of person who's all of those more consistent

Thanks so much for listening. We have a video that's a synthesis of this whole conversation on our YouTube channel. It's a five-minute video called The Image of God. You can find it at youtube.com slash the Bible project. We'd love to hear from you and you can do that at um we're on Facebook, facebook.com slash join the Bible Project on Twitter at Join Bible Proj and um in real life we're in Portland, Oregon.

Up next on the podcast will be a conversation um on the book of Proverbs as we're going to do a new series on the wisdom literature. And also coming up is going to be a really great Conversation on God and money, which I'm really excited about. It's gonna be our first. try at uh doing a podcast that's more storytelling and less just dialogue. So I hope you guys like it. That'll come out soon. Thanks for being a part of this.