Best Practices For Paper Writing With Anna Clemens [Rerun]

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slash nomination. I will leave the ball or the puck to you, and I'll see you on the other side. Cheers. Are you preparing to write a paper? Do you get anxious not knowing what the outcome is going to be of this long process? Today, I'm sharing with you my conversation with Anna Clement, who specialty is to coach researchers on how to write for journal articles. If writing articles is daunting for you. If you don't think your English is good enough.

If you don't feel like you have a system that you can repeat again and again, This episode is for you. During our conversation, Anna talked about how to system article writing, she talked about the importance of how to communicate with editors and also about different ways we sabotage ourselves when setting out to write a paper. There is a lot of actionable advice in this episode, so I suggest you listen, you re listen and you take notes. No matter what stage you're at in your

research journey. I am convinced that this conversation with Anna is going to have multiple take home messages for you that will improve your experience writing journal papers. And now without further ado, my conversation with Anna Clement. Welcome to this week's episode of Papa Phd. This week, I have the great pleasure of having with me Anna Cl. Doctor Anna Cl is an academic writing coach with a Phd in chemistry.

In her online program, the researchers writing academy, Anna helps researchers get their papers published in their target journals without procrastinating on the writing Oh, procrastination, Anna. Isn't that a a vein for a lot of us. Trigger something. Right? Inside and outside of. Welcome on the. Mean, thank you. Yeah. It's funny because the thing about nation is really the thing that when people approach me and they're telling me what they

struggle with. I think a shred papers, That's like the number 1 thing they say. Getting started on those, in front of that blank page. It is... I know I live... I live that, in and It's a... There are ways to to kind of circumvent it, and I think we might talk about some of them today. I'm sure we will. But, yeah, It's sometimes our brain play tricks on us. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So a Phd in chemistry and now coach for writing for,

researchers. Can you share a little bit more on how that transpired that transition? Yeah. Sure. It was it was kind of a very long window transition. So it wasn't like a direct thing. It wasn't, like, the first thing I did after graduating with my Phd. Instead, graduated and honestly, I didn't know what I want to do. And I... What I did and what I can recommend everyone to do, when you are kind of finishing something, and you're not quite sure where

to go next. If that's your thing, and you have, you know, the means to do that. To take some time off, that's what I did, lift off my savings a little bit. And just you know, did a lot of, like, inter intervention and reflection and trying to understand what I wanted to do. And 1 thing that was became clear to me was that writing... So a question I asked myself was, which parts of my Psg did I enjoy because there were a lot of things

join. Mh. But there were also passed that I really, really like, and then if we can... I mean it was like an easy question. For me because it was like writing. Yeah. That was fun that was like, you know, things. I had some sort of vision problems. Sound like a lot of conflict, a lot of like, problems with my, like, Yeah... Was my supervision essentially my other colleagues were fine. But then what was really remarkable to me that when I was doing my Phd,

I felt like... Or I noticed that writing was something very positive to me, like, writing kind of became a where I guess, I was kind of good at it. And I don't really know why exactly because I... It's not like I'd, like, written like, poetry as a child or anything like that. I mean, I was always, like, integrating books and language and stuff, but I'd not done much writing, but it kind of came easy to me and I really loved it. I love writing my thesis, you know, A phd thesis. I love

writing papers. And I also noticed, like, everyone around me all the other Phds phd seems be like, oh my god, Like, how would you like this? Like, for them just like the worst. Part. Of the Phd and food was like, the best part. So anyway that's for safari well introduction to this that then I basically started to do jobs like freelance jobs that had to do with writing and science. Mention a bit in science journalism. Because this would seem to me like, the

obvious thing. Like, if you, like science and writing aid you become, like, a science writer. Right? Yeah like, rightful newspapers magazines, things like that. And I did that. I did that, But it wasn't really it. And it also something to do with a job situation around that. It's just I I mean, I love door writing, science writing. So, like, writing for football science because he noted that a lot like, writing...

About like scientific discoveries about, like, topics, Like, this 1 article collaborate wrote about t. And we're just a condition when you don't have a mind's eye. Mh. And it's very, very common, but it's not talked about a lot. So this article. I mean, this is so amazing because still people like get in touch with me because of that. Okay. Article it was published So I wrote it in German for the German version of Scientific American and then

Scientific American translated it. So this is why it's kind of like, you know, out there and like, easy to find when you Google. So this is like, I mean, this is just an example of why I... It was so fun, like, And it is fun because you really, like, you talk to people about interesting things. Mh Now, yeah. I see it I feel like what I'm talking about it. Like, and they definitely a there, but the job market isn't as such as that it's very easy to survive if honest.

When you're doing freelance science writing, I mean, russian basically, never met anyone who isn't like super super established, like, if you've been doing this for 50 years, then you be able to But, like, if you're a new 1, like, basically, everyone, I know who does it, they also do other jobs that aren't as much fun. You know? Just... And these are the jobs that bring the income like, they're Press releases for universities things like that. You know? And I was like that I don't wanna

do this. And then I kind of transitioned into editing, so I would edit people's papers, like, academic papers, and that transitioned into me coaching, So I kind of realized that editing is, it was kind of too late and the way I added was very, very thorough. So I wouldn't just, like, correct the language, things like that of grammar, It was, like,

okay. So so what you wanna tell? Like, what what what you wanna tell people in this paper like, what is like, the key thing you wanna convey and I would really spend time, like, getting this story right and things like that. So it was just like a paper type of editing that it's actually very hard to, you know, it I felt like it was too late. Type like too late in the process because when the research has had already written. Mh Mh. Like, you know, that I

already spent months, sometimes say. Years. I really just, to to write that draft, and then I come, and I'm like yes. So. Let's it. Completely redo it. Yeah. And it was kind of... I mean, people that, you know, never happy because, like, you know, the articles often were very successful then. But it it's not very efficient and it's kind of frustrating, and, you know, and then I realized it, okay. I need to do this

the other way around. Like, and nobody, I didn't really see anyone doing this, but really teaching researchers as how to write a paper step by step. So, like, working with them? Okay. Now you have your data. Okay. What do we do first? What do we do then? Like, all the steps to, like, have it in a really... Yeah. In a, you know, to to have, like, a really compelling article. Mh. Yeah. And then just said,

developmental editing. Yeah. And that's the funny thing because it is best early in the process, but, It's often not done early in the process... I mean, not in the academic world or not in the academic paper writing world at least... Like like many things, like, you know... On the podcast, we talk about, careers a lot in career preparation career readiness. And, of course, it's much better early on, but you know, do people have time or do people feel that they have time to

focus on those things? There's always stuff on top of the list and researchers as we know. Have a lot of stuff in admin and this and that. And, you know, unless they're really keen on becoming really great writers. They're not gonna be, you know, take the time to get training on that or at least, they they won't think about it, and and I guess that's where you come in. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people realize they need training.

I mean, this is what I seen from my program, because the biggest kind of group of people that in the program assistant professors or, like, new principal investigators. So people who are then, like, they made it through the Phd. They maybe did a post or 2 or something that, and then they were like, okay. They got the opportunity to have their own group, their own lab. And then they don't have a Pi. Anymore who either with their name or with the expertise or I don't know with their

you know, Yeah. What whatever kind of skills that person had is not there anymore. Mh. And they suddenly have to publish on their own, and they have to know think about? Okay. How am I going to teach writing to those Phd students, or masters students or whatever students or prospects or whoever's in their group and and then they're like, oh, I don't actually know how to do. Mh And and so this is the stage at which they, usually come to you and and and try and ask you about about the training.

And so you the interesting thing for me always is the journey what, you know, and and in in this case, I'm still thinking of you as a as a Phd.

Now becoming a coach for writing. I think the the the journey is is kind of straightforward in a way, but there's there's a part of it that That I feel is unknown a lot of people even yesterday, I was taking part in the conversation about, you know, breaking into medical writing And the the the thing about what you said is you mentioned starting writing for journals for for I don't know, newspapers or or magazines.

Do you think we can spend a a minute or 2 just sharing with people, how they can start writing Even if they're still, you know, doing their Phd, what are what are what are ways they can start, you know, getting other ex... Other writing experience that will then serve them later on for when they get to this stage that you just mentioned, Is this something you can talk about? Yeah. It's a great question. And I'm just, like

thinking back to what I did. And now, I got this experience because, of course, like, the problem is all, I nice. You don't get gigs without experience, but how you get There you go. So nice 1 thing that has helped me, actually, I read a book, which was cooled. Oh, gosh. I can't remember, but it was basically how to get published like, how to get commissioned without experience. Mh. So this was written by a journalist who's, like, a freelance journalist. Who,

talks through, okay. What's the pitching process like. And talks through how you can kind of you know, you're not lying. But you're not necessarily mentioning it but that you don't have that you're arm unpublished. Mh. You know? Because, In the end, the editors that and, like let's say a magazine. They're like really busy. And what they are interesting interested in is a good story, like they wanna... So I also... I did an internship with

this German version of Scientific American. Mh. And what I learned there, like, I mean, this is a very good thing to do as well. It's a bit more time consuming, You know, I would only do this. If you're if you're serious about it. I did it for 6 months. You know, like, so it was a commitment, but, of course, you learn a ton. Like, because you learn how it's working on the inside. You and she's... You know, okay. They're meeting once a week, the editors.

And they are discussing everyone is kind of presenting, the emails they got the pictures they got. And what they're interested in is like a new idea, Like something that they're general, either hasn't published in a long time, or like an angle to a topic that they haven't had in there, just something or something they just, you know, haven't thought about because, of course, you have like an editorial team was like, I mean, in that case, it looks like,

I don't. Maybe 10 people or something. So there's a lot of brains, you know, and they're exposed to a lot of things. Mh. But still... I mean, kind of your way in is to kind of think of this thing that they don't think about. You know? So the story was. Mh. The stories. Exactly. Like finding something like a nugget. And then you basically write a pitch, and then Aren't necessarily asking you to provide references.

You know? I think if you have a really good pitch, then then make I could take a punt, you know, and then may might not pay you very much at the beginning, Do you but that's okay. You, for you because you just want the reference basic. Course, And she... I would also go, like, don't go to, like, scientific American. You know, like, start start a worst. Start somewhere like, I mean, maybe your university actually has a a lot of stu have from like magazines or publications.

And ask them, Oh, can I read for you? Like, is there... Is say, like, just, like look around you and see what's like easy and in the beginning? I mean, I would say Don Worry about getting paid. I mean, in later on do very much worry about that. Yes. But in the very beginning, when you just... Want a few references. Don't worry about it. I do it for free. If it has to be. Just to get the experience just for you to understand. You can like doing. Exactly. Yeah. No. It totally makes sense.

Awesome. I I totally agree with everything you said and and the university way, especially if you're still in graduate school, and you'll you'll do it as a side thing, it's a good way to go. It's close at hand. They'll be happy to have someone contributing. Of course, payment is not gonna be, I think on the table there. But your the experience will be there. And and there's, you know, there's really good university publications and student publications that that might be

interesting. Or you know, 1 thing I'm thinking is if you're working in a specific domain or subject, if there's an association or a student association in that subject, for sure these people will also be interested in your in your call collaboration. Awesome. This is great because I think often, people... Yes. Writing is part of what we do, as as researchers as as young researchers. But it's it's just something we do. It's not something we we get... Have the time to work

on and make it a... You know, make it a skill unless someone you know, comes in like you and and brings that, point of view and that training. Now for for... So you're mentioning, like, early career researchers needing to now be the 1 who writes. And the the 1 who writes well and the 1 who maybe edits, what's coming from from their their lab members. What would you say is a challenge that commonly, you know, that you see people coming,

coming with or or let's... Or they're a challenge or a blind spot or, you know, something that They haven't thought of and that when you start, your training, they go, okay. So from now on, I'll do it like this. Yeah. There is actually there's 2 things, and they're also kind of related. 1 thing is... So what... What people like, you know, new Pi, newer assistant professors, quickly often realize is they can't get published in the general. I get published in. They get it rejected it. Mh.

That's 1 thing. The second thing is writing is taking them incredibly long. Mh. And the process of getting the paper to the submission stage it's really frustrating to them. And partly... And there's like different kind of things that come up, For example, things that come up are, they get drafts from Phd students and have to completely rewrite them because they are not. At all what they were thinking. Mh. They should be like, or like, yeah, the main, thing is or the main

blind spot is? They have never thought about what is our process like as a lab as a team as a group. What's our process to to to write that paper together because of course, in science, we... Don't write papers on our own, but we we are like... I don't know. 234567. Yes. People. Kind of you know, contribute. And if you don't think about what the process is, this is going to be a very, very, very, driving and nausea. Time consuming, can kind time consuming thing. Mh. Mh. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially like you said, if there's different people contributing, just getting all the communications and everyone looking or bringing their section and then we're, you know, making it as AAA thing that has sense and it has a voice that, you know, it I I can see how that can be a problem. And so you you start helping them with that with making it a process that's repeatable. Is that is that what I... Am I understanding well? Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly. So what I do, what I teach is it's basically... Yeah. The whole process. It's like, okay. Now you have your data. You, like, I don't know. These are your findings. These are your results. And I, like, I put a lot of emphasis on first thinking through what the story should be. Like, So, like, breaking down, basically deciding, okay, which data because they usually like huge amounts of dating, you know, loads of findings.

I'm kind of thinking through okay. What's on the argument actually? Like, how... Like, like, what's our main message is always... Something. We define, like, then that's the main message. Okay. So what's the like a logical order of presenting our findings, something so that we are communicating that main message to the reader. And the aim of this is so that the, like, resulting paper, it's like super cohesive. So it's super coherent. We always, like,

We are not starting... Yeah. We're not teasing 1 story in the abstract, and then we are not fulfilling that promise in the article because we're telling a totally different story. Which you see, you know, if you read the literature, you see that happening. All we wanna do is, like, we wanna have this clear story throughout throughout the whole thing. And I think for that to happen and for that to happen, like, efficiently. It's really like, okay. Let's decide. Like, I call the key story

elements. Let's decide on the key story elements. And let's decide with a whole group. Like, basically, yeah, I teach a lot of aspects of the process. I mean, part us also decide on 1 person. Who's gonna be in charge of the process. It's probably the first author, you know, all the last. Also, but someone who gets some crap because it's going to be work, of course. But who kind of maybe does the initial draft, the initial key story elements. But then, like get together with the group agree on

things, before you actually start writing. Like, that's, I guess, the big takeaway is like, don't have, like, not yourself or Phd students sit down and just write the paper was without having agreed on. Okay. What's the story book gonna be was the argument gonna be? Like, make a story board make outlines, like, make outlines for sections, like, that's kind of the next step after the story is agreed upon,

Okay. Now thanks are okay. Which subs sections do we want in the results section, which paragraphs do you want in the introduction section Like, I would go really granular. And decide on that because then you you avoid so much writing because as soon as you're let someone write, yourself or someone else, they are gonna sit there, and perfect each sentence. You know? They're gonna right. They're not gonna be happy with that. They're gonna perfect. Perfect.

They got it honestly waste time, and maybe then later you decide, oh, but we didn't even need to mention this and you were that person spend. I don't know half an hour perfect. Mh. So that's why I think, yeah. That they're, like, planning before you're actually, you know, a Right, I think is...

This is very like what I teach. It's a very interesting structure or or process you're describing because in the beginning, you know, we were talking about procrastination and and and the white page, you know, and and. And in this way, they're still doing it this way, creating, like, sounds to me, like, you're creating buckets for the things that are... The text that is gonna come later on.

I think is already a great way to prevent this, this, writer's block and and this procrastination because you don't know where to start and how to perfect that sentence like like you were saying, it's it's a really really great approach, and it's very much attractive to me it's kind of a design thing you design the the the the article before filling in the actual

the actual buckets. And and once people do that, in and this, of course, is gonna have the flavor of the person that especially the 1 that is in charge of the of the article. But then I imagine it also helps collaborators a lot because there's... Like I said, there's buckets in there for them to fill instead of... Okay. Think about what you want to write and then they come with 3 pages, and then we need to sift through those pages and okay, this paragraph yes, there's no.

Yeah. It something Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, this is really huge part of it. Like... It's what people have, like, the feedback I've gotten was like, like, from people who have gone through the research writing academy. They're I'm, like, I'm so much more confident now to, like, guide my call through the process. And actually, like, they have confidence, like, 1 person, said Kat. We have, like, a case that

you've done my upset as well. She said, like, I could just tell them, Oh, no. This is maybe for another article, you know? Mh. Like I think now we are, like, side because, look, we agreed on this. And that is... Suggest that this and then people, like, which like at High ex, Her experience was that how cool this when Oh, yeah. You're right. Like, thanks. Like you know, like, people were actually thankful to be... You know taking by the hand a little

bit. There was someone on there who, who could guide the ship, you would keep everyone on track and to have that, like, a very clear path ahead of them, and it makes the relationship, with call is so much easier. Mh. Especially, I think if you talk about it before, like, a few just lay it out beforehand, and be like, okay. Let's... You know, I'm in charge. Well, I'm the first or last also whatever, or the owner of the project, or, however, you know whatever you roll listen you say,

I suggest we do it this way. And I mean, people are usually fine with it because truth to be told. Not many people have like that many researchers have a good process for writing papers, You know. It's not like you're clashing against something usually because everyone is just kinda doing the way they're always kinda done it or, like, you know, like... So it's super super helpful being able to, like, guide that. Kinda Yeah. Process with your

cool. No. And if you're starting, I can imagine, you know, the panic of, you know, a sculpt that's starting with a huge block of marble in front of them, and having a system and having a framework changes it completely and makes it a much much less daunting process to start because... There's like... There's a pro... Like... Well, it's in... I just said it, but there's a process to follow. I I really really like like that approach. Papa Phd is supported by noted source.

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I'm planning improvements to the show and getting to know you better, will allow me to tailor those improvements to your preferences and to your needs. So please visit papa phd dot com forward slash audience and fill in the audience survey that's there for you. Thank you for your help and for your time. Now 1 1 thing I'm I'm thinking because here, we are... We've been talking about the point of view of the team of the the the author of the the Pi. And I... I'm really curious about...

Because you've mentioned that, you know, people going to to this training. Then have success getting, getting their articles published. How does this, you know, upstream work, then affect, what happens when reviewer number 1 review number 2 get the draft. What are these people looking for that the system helps them helps researchers actually give them what their what the reviewers are looking for. Mh mh. That's such a good question.

So I kind of frame it in, like, 2 stages because the first stage is actually the journal editor. Mh. Because we first have to pass them. So they send it even out to peer review. So it's kind of... And I would say when it comes to writing, not Yeah. I mean, I would, yeah. I would... It's circa a 2 stage thing. So Shall I... I talk about the general editor things. At stage. Because it's it's very important.

Because so the general editor, what's very important there is you like, what they look at is the abstract. Your figures. I mean, it depends on the journal on the other, of course, I'm general. But that title cover letter abstract, figures, are the main things? Because they wanna understand... Okay. Is this relevant for our journal for our readers leadership? And if it is, is it relevant and

is significant? Like, is it like novel enough, You know, for for whatever, like, the journal targets at, you Know, like, different journals have different kind of, you know, want different versions and, yeah. Exactly. Level of significance. And then they look at... Okay. Do that... Do I believe the results? Like, does it make sense to me. Or like, or what I said earlier, or is the author promise? Thing or the author team promising something in the abstract they can't

deliver. So that's why typically, they look at the figures, but they're often not subject matter experts, so they won't be able to, like, fully understand. Okay. Okay. So but so the most important thing there is, make it possible for your editor to actually follow your argument in the figures. Like half figures because they likely won't read the text because then I subject matter expert, and they expect this to be too difficult. I mean, some will, you know, this is general.

And this is actually... I've talked to I love general editors, and I'm always like, trying to find this information from them. So this is, basically relaying things that they have told me. I'm not like making this up. And figures are I like, very, very important That. And they wanna see the argument in the figures. And she also can, like, then you can do subs sections, You know, you can really make try to communicate, your research, but also unless it's as important

the story. You know, like, in your story, it becomes clear how significant your route searches as. And whether it is suitable for that journal. Mh. And you can do that and the are abstract you're kind of dude in the whole paper but the abstract, I would recommend tell mini story, like, tell your story, like a synopsis of your story than the abstract tell the full thing. Tell people why significantly, tell, tell them what problem you're solving.

And also in the cover letter. So the cover letter is that is so powerful and, a lot of general editors have told me that like, also sometimes in a wasting that space a little bit. By just like, copy, pasting and abstract. Because they don't need anything that's all, like, they have the apps checked already. That kind of thinking, oh, like, now you can talk to me, like, directly. Like, you're not talking to me through something. You're gonna put out a to the public,

But this is, like our private channel. Okay. So to be very direct with me. Tell me, like, maybe there's something that you couldn't mention, you know, in the introduction of. Like, maybe you're super critical of some work that's out there. And you don't necessarily no wanna create enemies, so you're not putting this in the introduction section, but this is, like, perfect if that's the case. Like, tell the editor tell them, like, I mean, give them reasons. Right? Yeah. So why that is the case.

Okay. To them 1 on 1. Like... From processing person. Mh. Mh. And and excel, you know, I spoke to an editor at a conference Now summer, and he was like, you know, it's... Really weird to me how few people sell. And Try just tell their article in the cover letter because that's what it's for. Like, this is your your... Your place to sell your article And... And if you don't, you know, they may get suspicious because they're like, oh, you don't

believe in it. You know, like, I mean, like, you have to think about how how it is for them and what expectations they have. So that's the editor, stage. And then the peer of your stage, they're the most important thing that you can do in your article, when it comes to writing because of course, most of what the peer reviewers are looking at the actual science, which I can't help with. You have to, you have to do this on your own. That your data is, you know, good, reliable, robust, solid.

They're checking that you check for all parameters, you know, or for the relevant parameters? Or I mean enough parameters so that it's relevant for the journal, you know, a higher high factor journal will probably want you to have a very big study, you know, like nature or something sides. There was, like, huge study huge datasets. They want you to have sort about every eventual that could kind of topple your conclusion.

So they want to be very robust, and then maybe wanna have the next step, like, if you have if you have, like, a proof of concept study, they wanna already see, oh, have you tried to employ, like, apply it. So, like, you have to think like that. But then... Like the very, like, big journals and why I was not going with this. Well so the peer review Yeah. They look at, like, is your study robust solid.

And when it comes to writing what you can do, like, what writing can achieve there for you is not to be misunderstood. So right clearly because honestly, like, I feel like, a lot of peer review. Like, a little space in peer review reports is kind of about. I'm they misunderstood. You know, They misunderstood what you were saying. And I... I don't know if you've written like, those of you watching or listening to this. If you've written a paper and got a peer review report back.

You may have had this. I mean, I feel like we all all had this. I remember going this ma'am. Yeah. But that's not what I mean. Like, they totally was misunderstood understood me. Like, how could they... But honestly, it's on you. Like, if they misunderstood understood you, it's probably on you because it's your... Like, if they misunderstood this, it. They are just a reader. Right? Your... The other readers will also this misunderstand. So it's very good to get this flagged by them. So

and this is where really clear writing. Like, this is like my 1 number 1 thing when it comes to, like, I we talked a lot about the process and structuring a paper. And it comes to the actual, like, writing be clear. Like, be super super clear. Like, this is, I think number 1 priority if you're right. Like, so many researchers thing they have to, like, sound like an expert. Mh. A lot of, like, non native English speakers, like people who don't have English as their first language. Think they...

You know, the English is adequate, but where I think, you know, probably your English is fine because, you know, you do a Phd hd or you do research in English, Mh, if you do. And, you know, you will be fine. Like, if you can, discuss your research with your group with your department or go to a conference present your research. You have enough English to write an article. You know, that's of what I mean.

And then I think we kind of overestimate how good we have to be in English to write article kind where I really think, like, the main... Like, don't oversee your English like, but think about being clear, like... Mh. Like, I think this is, like should be the gulf or... I I mean, it's... I think the most effective way to get out tick published is to, think about being clear. Mh. I said add a priority not like, being grammatically correct, a hundred percent. That's the fine.

Thinking about cars and stuff. I mean, yeah. Sometimes they can maybe change the meaning of it, But honestly, like, people make such a big deal a lot of the oxford come. Stuff like maybe. But whatever. I mean, yeah. Maybe like, but it's not what's gonna, like, you know, get your archer rejected. This super interesting. So it means style... You know, you won't be rejected because of style or grammar. That's what I'm hearing, and it's important.

Me myself being someone who has not... Who does not have English as as their first language. I... If I'm super thankful that you mentioned this because I have again, talk with with young researchers, and it is an issue. There's a lot of... I got... Yeah. Let... It's of let's say pastor feelings in a way, of, oh, I can't write as well as my Pi as well as my bench mate who was born in this this sort of that country and speaks the language. And super super happy that you mentioned that.

Now, these last few minutes, you said a bunch of things that that is things It took a lot so. Swings for me. It's fine. I'll I'll try to to and and we're we're I mean, we were are at at at 40 ish minutes, of of interview to so we still have

a few minutes left. But 1 of the things that that you mentioned, that was interesting and and and that I think people should take note is when you are communicating with this, general editor, you are not communicating with an academic it's someone who is working for a business, and you said something that I think often is not a bad word, but anyway, It can. No. Sell sell your article. You said that.

Mh And I I do think you know, if you're listening and this kind of give you a chills hearing this, try to accepted it in a way and say, in this specific framework of communicating with this person, who is kind of, gatekeeper of... Does this article article go to the next step or not, I need to...

If if it's not you, if you're not able to have this conversation in less academic and more sell marketing way, Maybe someone in your lab will, but I think it's important to develop a relationship with these people where you can have a relaxed conversation and just and just talk like, kind of popular what the article is about in a way.

Do do you agree with with this this kind of what I got from what you said and it's the first time I hear about it And that's why I kind of put a note to to talk about it. Yeah. I love that you picked up on that, because you are... You're right. Like... Sell selling us the dirty word in a academia. And if if like, it makes you cringe, like there's a you could listen. Then... I mean, I had to rethink... I mean, running my own business, I had to think about selling.

You know, I had to really examine my relationship with selling. Because of that. And, because I come from a academia as well. Right? Like, I... I have been there. I know how, like selling, capitalism, things like that I frowned upon. And and I mean, you know, I do agree. I do agree about, I hate, like, bad salesman, but selling can also be good, you know, selling, selling is not inherently bad. That's what I want. Say because if you think about, you have a problem. Right? And you...

I don't know. Let's say you go to pharmacy of a skin problem. And you tell them about your problem, and they give you a really good product that solves your skin. I don't know. Eczema or whatever. You're super happy. I mean, you're so glad that person told you about that it will help your problem. And you walk away. You use the product listing as batch. You're like, wow, I mean, this is selling, you know, like, selling isn't only s.

Bad. Like, just think about... I mean, selling us basically, And, I mean, I don't talk about sending magic actually. I took way more about storytelling, but lots of people don't like storytelling because they think it's too much... It's too sales y and because storytelling us like, oh, it means, like, okay, like, exaggerating your findings. You're, like, overs dating them. And there are... There are some examples. You know, there are papers

out there of course. And have groups that do a lot of papers that are kind of really you know, to load up, like, exact, And you go, like, what results actually don't deliver what you, like, set at the top and. This is gross, and this is... But I feel like this is not the fold of selling, and this is not the fold of storytelling, but this is the fold of using at the wrong way, you know, using the

tool the wrong way. Like, there is a way of using the tool the right way, and this is we're really try to think about where your readers at. Like, well, I always say it's like, put yourself ingredient in your readers shoes. Mh. Think about where they're at. Like, the general you say, They're not an academic or they they probably did, like, a per Phd post, but they're not an academia anymore. They... I mean, look up the general you're submitting to, look up what field they're covering. Mh.

And just get it... Like, get it, like, think about, okay. How many research topics like do they need to be able to judge. Right? Like, they won't have ind knowledge the same as your peer reviewers as your, like, private colleagues So just thinking about that, I'm trying to, like, pitch it at a level that they will be able to understand them significance.

And actually, often it is, that we ourselves as the offer, haven't really thought about the significance, you know, Not in that specific way, So it's also why actually, III mean, I see this happen all the time that thinking about what story you are telling helps you as the author to actually to actually realize where... And, like, what potential impact your research could have because we often don't, like, we are so, especially if you're Phd student, you you probably struggle with us a little

more because you... So close to your research and you haven't maybe haven't read all the literature surrounding, you know that maybe your Pi has. Or someone who has been and, you know, working in that topic for a longer time. So... Yeah. I I suggest just re examine, just challenge if you feel like selling is a bad thing. Just just think about it a little bit, try to challenge that thought a lot of that. Yeah. Jen says and it's it's interesting. Selling is

like inviting people to your party. If you don't, know what will come. And and it's true. Yeah. You just... If you do it according to your values and to your, you know, your core yeah, values in and in life, it'll be fine. It's just it's just that actually in that space, in the space. It has a... That some things have a bad ring to them. It's like, 1 1 thing that I've try to find an a new expression for is personal branding because it's not accepted very well.

And but any in any case, this is off topic. I I think this is this is really interesting and I think just picking up on what you said. Doing this work of Doing a little bit of storytelling and selling of the story of your research will also, for sure, have impacts on talking with stakeholders who might be funding you later on etcetera etcetera. I think there's only positives

to that. Now the other thing I picked upon that I found really, really interesting It has to do with the with the peer peer reviewers, and you said, you know, it's on you to be clear. And I do remember also that with that reaction of, oh, they didn't understand what. You know, they... You know, they they didn't understand what I wrote, there's some frustration there that that I remember seeing people getting. And I wonder, you know, I feel that getting frustrated is not useful

reaction. So like you said, these comments that might sound like they're they're... They don't, you know, they're not... They don't know enough in on the topic and they just get it. And they don't get it. Is is kind of stopping you from actually looking at what you wrote and making it better. Is this is I feel that's what you were saying. I was just wanting to make a point of of reinforcing it because emotions can get in the way of you getting a better product at the end. Again, I

said product. It's also a term that's not... I said product as well because... Yeah, it's... I mean, Anyway, yeah. You were right. I mean, it really is like that. It's actually in, you know, in journalism there's a saying that is called kill your darling. Sometimes we are very in love with our own like, we have, like a sentence or turn phrase we really like. It happens read all the time on them.

Right, I'm like, I love the sentence and venue, but when you reread it or when you get feedback and you feel like, okay. It doesn't go. Like it's always the ones you like the most that unfortunately, they don't help you know, they don't help you get the flow on. They don't help you. I mean, they're may be breaking the flow. They may make it unclear. Or there's it's like a better way of putting it. Like, yeah. Don't be too attached to what you have written. And

do get feedback. I mean, it is really a process and it is a skill. So it's a skill you need to do. Like, to develop the skill, you first need to know how to do it, and then you need to practice it. Right? Like, even if someone tells you if this is how you do it. I mean I always think it's better if you have someone who tells you how to do it because then you kind have a shortcut. But then once you know, kind of the system or the strategies,

then practice it and get feedback. Like, have people have other people read it, like, have your lab made reader, have... I mean, you're supervisor, whoever, like, read and asked them I'm okay, is this clear? Like, did you follow this? Or is there any confusion? I mean, I must think it's good to have someone read who isn't suit like he doesn't know so much about your study. So you have,

like, a bit of an outside perspective. And you just need to give them a whole article just if you have, like, points where you unsure something. And You can kind of prevent, you know, getting that feedback from the peer reviewers if you do by. Yeah. And and now I I wonder whether part of of your training. Actually, before I do that, I I do wanna, you know, first thank you for being here so much. And I I wanna share... I want you to be able to share where people can find you.

Yes. So you can find me on claim dot com, and this is ANNACLEMENS. Dot com. And you can find my food training there as well if you just, you know, that's a big button. The top that says free training. So you can find it that way. Or you had to pop up phd d dot com slash. So that's just my name. And if you wanna connect on Twitter, I'm at scientists. Right. And you can find me on Linkedin as well, just type in my name and I. Comma up Phd, I believe. Yeah. Awesome.

Now we... We're really really finishing. But as we are talking about this question of how to take in comments from reviewers, and especially reviewer number 2. Right. III wonder whether to finish if whether there's part of your training that focus is just on that on, you know, how to make the best experience out of getting reviews, and then addressing them. And I know in in my in the domain that I was in, and I in in

yours too, Sometimes there's experiments. You know, there's the stuff that needs to be done that it's not just to do with writing. But I wonder where this for the for the for the end, whether there's something that you usually share or recommend that you can that you can share with the listeners of Papa To do with this thing of the of the reviews.

Yes. So I think when it comes to peer reviews as you size a lot of to do, like, a lot of things they, I had to do with the app flow like result and experiments. When it comes to writing, I think what's important those always to be polite. Be super polite and in your answers, you know, in your reply, and be thorough, like, and organize it well, so that the editor, because it's usually, the editor sees those replies.

It's not actually the peer reviewers. Only if the editor decides to send it out for second round of review which some journals do, but honestly, a lot of Mh. Especially ag tier journals don't do that. So again, in your reply to the peer, you're kind of talking to the editor again. So think about that, So, for example, if review number 2 misunderstood here. Don't just say, oh they misunderstood me or what I meant was XYZ.

Now, you have to go back them into the article and change that and then say in your response, I believe that that was some misunderstanding because my writing wasn't clear. We have or because our writing wasn't clear. We have rectified that by changing, sentence, so and so it's highlighted in that's in this color in the manuscript. You know? Like, make it super easy for them to find. Organize it very well, refer to it. I would always answer everything.

Only if you really can't do something. Like, if it really doesn't make sense what the roof said. Then then... That was a show there was something here. Be like a bug. You know? Exactly. This is not, like, this comment isn't relevant. I'm even a polite way, and then you don't have to do something, but whenever you can do something, And sometimes... I mean, I don't know. Maybe this is my personal opinion. I mean sometimes. It it depends on your publishing strategy in the end.

If you just wanna get public, like, you know, if you're Phd student, you just need to get this paper published now. You don't have time to send it somewhere else. Also for your Pi. I mean, it... I mean, most of us don't, like, just time is always dance the other. Yeah. So then, I would say if they ask you to cite another study even though you go like, Oh, is that really your paper asking your sites, you know, I have done this in the past myself,

and I would just... I mean, I... Up to you, you know, whatever, you know, with your values, if that's like, you know, a life with that. But evident was I always answer everything and try to... Because it's an easy win for you end. I mean, if they want you to publish something, take something, Okay Just cite that paper. Otherwise, you kind of have to

say why you don't wanna say it. I mean, it's also fine, but do then give you reasons for why you really don't wanna write that paper, and that's done it fine as well. No. Well, it's interesting again that Yeah. That here... That you need to think about the human you're actually interacting with and and when thinking of what what response

you need to give. And if you if you go to academic or experts, it it won't be the right thing to do because the person you're actually talking with is not an expert you know, the mean love it. Anna, sadly, the time the time, is kind of it's kind of over. We're almost at at 1 hour of talking here, which was super pleasant. III kind of wanna sum up some of the things that that I

that I took and. The the 1 that I'll I'll reiterate it is this question of the editor, the general editor, you needing as a re as a researcher to consider the person and who they are, the domain... They, they, the domains that they cover when communicating with them, but also being clear that at different stages of the process, you are...

Although you may you might think, oh, I'm communicating with the magazine or with the journal, you actually communicating with this human and that's important in the message that you bring. This is something that I had never heard, you know, anyone talk about and that I think is is an important take home from from today's conversation. The second thing of course, is, storytelling. I really liked, and it's stuck to my mind this thing of again, for the editor,

having them being able to... If the... If they only look at the fear eye of their mind, the story that you're trying to tell. And then, of course, accompanied by a cover letter that is not just a copy of the abstract and that kind of improves or or or bring something more to that conversation. And also that makes you human because... It's not the fact of being of them being human, but you're also a human who wants to to get their message through. I really like that.

And and then, of course, being robust in your data, of course, for the review part is important, but being the third 1 and last 1 that I want to reiterate because a lot of people out there who are doing Phds who are finishing Phds who are doing post docs, changed countries to go do them, English or, you know, English, let's say, because it's the the most, the language that most people end up publishing in is not their first language. Don't worry

about that. And I I think, you know, Papa Pc is a lot of a lot of the conversations I have end up being about inclusion. And and I do think that sometimes we end up excluding ourselves because we think we're not good enough. And please hear what Anna shared. Go back and re listen, you know, you've got to the Pg, You've got to to the stage you're at in your young researcher or career.

You you can do this. You can communicate your science, don't sweat the the details too much in terms of grammar and style, you know, robust science, good communication, Of course, have have your things read by other people that that you respect and that you, that you, be ready to take fit feedback from. But don't sweat it too much and don't don't block yourselves from going towards this or that publication because you're not a native speaker. That that would be the 3 take home

messages. I don't know And if you if you like or agree with them, if and if you have a last word, But I I really wanna thank you for for having been here and having talked this hour with me, something that I hadn't covered yet, and the that was really, really interesting to me. Yeah. Thank you so much. I love your take home, key takeaway away messages. They have that.

And maybe just to add 1 thing to the, non native speaker conversation is that, you know, I think I get approached equally by native and non native speakers. And I think this is something that pan native speakers don't that English native speakers also struggle with writing papers. That... Because it does out so much more. And just because you had english in school or you've wrote. I don't know essay sa sending english. It doesn't mean that you know how to write a paper.

Get a card I really like is, I academic english just nobody's best language. It's by Ken Highland. He's a. I love exact I love it too. It's like, yeah Exactly. Like we all like, we all have to learn this. We all have to learn how to write a good paid that. Nobody was born with that automatic, skill. Owner has learned that in high school or something. You know? Like... It's... Yeah. That's a great. You know, another piece of encouragement and I And I love. I love the quote...

Academic English is not anyone's first language I love it. I really love. Alright, Anna, this was great again. If, you wanna go and and register for Anna free training again, the link that I set up that's gonna points to her page is papa p dot com forward slash anna cl. Thanks to everyone who watched live, it's really appreciated. If you don't follow Papa Phd on Youtube, please do.

We're just a little bit over 300, and I know that... I think if you get to 500, there's some new things that I can do for for the community, and then, of course, a thousand, but that's that's gonna be later on. These days, I'm trying to get to know viewers and listeners better. So if you have a few minutes, And if you go to papa p c

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And then if you are on Patreon, you have in and you know, it's something that you do. Papa Phd is on Patreon. You can also become a patron. And it'll be really appreciated, and it'll help me keep on bringing these great great conversations week after week. So so that's it. Thanks to everyone who watched live Thank you if you're watching later on, and I, you know, I'll I'll close the feet now. Say thank you again to Anna. And say, meet you in the next, in, in a future week for another papa

Phd conversation. Thanks, Anna. This was great. Thank you. Bye.