Advisor, Attorney, and Author Anjali Kumar

mentors to me. So I love talking to people that have done it differently than I know, and I also love sharing what I know. And it's been a really interesting season talking to all these different you know, founders of beauty brands, you know, some women, some guys, some natural companies, some not and even you know pioneers who have been in the space before me. And I love mostly being able to understand how people do things, how

they do it differently. And I just think it's really important for people out there that want to start their own businesses just to hear other stories so a you could relate or maybe you can get inspired. I'm someone that likes to not only talk about being an entrepreneur, but I really love to talk when it means to be a woman, what it means to be a mother, what it means to be a friend, you know how

that defines you. And I'm constantly working on myself and I'm really looking forward to the next season, which is why I want to talk to my next guest, a Julie, who is a a friend who I actually met when I was doing a speech and she was running the event at Google. Was it a women's group? What was it? So? I don't remember who, um who had formally extended the invitation to you, but it was probably women at Google, which I was on the steering committee of UM. So, yeah,

that was that was. It was a while ago, so I did it, but I got, you know, much more than I thought, which was this long friendship where you came up to me afterwards and you were such a cool like you were the you know, the head of legal at Google, like you were just not some kids sitting in the audience, and then and then we became friends. And then when my son was looking for work after college,

you mentored him. Yeah, it was incredible. I mean, I'm so grateful that I went to that talk and uh and got to meet you there, and I had always been a long adviirer of your brand and what you had built, and you know, certainly as a girl of color at a certain time, UM, you were the O G. I mean that was that was what introduced me to make up, was your line and feeling like I could feel beautiful at a time when everything else that I was seeing in media, I was telling you that I

was not the standard of beauty and being able to find things that worked for me was huge. And then hearing your story, I was like, she is the coolest, Like I just want to know her. And I was really embarrassed that afterwards that I did that to you, because I never just like bum rush somebody like that that I just felt this immediate connection to you, to

your story, how you talked about your family. We're both from Chicago, so I think there were just so many synergies and I really felt compelled to do that, and I don't think I've ever done that, Like I was really kind of mortified later, but I'm glad it worked out. But but that is that is in your nature to do that, because you are you know, you say you're these things, but you're all also very fearless and incredibly inspirational and interesting. So you know, I just wanted to

spend a second. I'm like, I can't even like remember every little thing you've done, But what did you do before Google? Okay, so my career is a bit of a windy groad. So I started. I'm a lawyer by training, as you mentioned. Um, So I started my career post law school living in London at a big New York

law firm called Sherman and Sterling. I spent a few years there, and I went there and spent two years in the London office, traveling over Europe, came back to the New York office, and then about a year into my time in New York, um that Not eleven happened. And when I came back to New York, I always knew that I didn't want to stay at a big firm forever. I sort of tripped into that job. But

Not eleven was a big wake up call. And I always had a very strong bleeding heart, you know, I was a very I had a strong impetus to do good in the world, and so that was kind of the kick in the pants I needed to go do it. So I left Sherman and Sterling and went to the Robin Hood Foundation, so that Bright and me up, I didn't know that. Yeah, So I and three years of robin Foundation doing sort of consulting work essentially for the

grand recipients of Robin Hood. And it was an extraordinary time, UM, really important work. It was really part of the fabric of the city and the rebuild of the city. So it was really humbling to be a part of that very on the ground. But I wasn't practicing law there and then I kind of realized I missed the law, which I never thought would be wars that would come out of my mouth. And so I ended up at a recently started nonprofit called Acumen Fund, which is not

called Acumen. I went there as a general council and so helped us set up our offices in India and focus on and you know, just figuring out how to do these grounds and equity investments in different companies and nonprofits around the world. Um. And then after a few years there, I was recruited to Google. So Acumen was a big grand recipient Google when Google dot org first started, and I honestly had no idea what I was doing there when I walked in there. I was like, I

don't understand how the interne at works. I don't understand how Google makes money. I was really clueless walking into that job, but it worked out great and I ended up loving it. I stayed there for many years, and then you went to Warby Parker and then I went

to Eary Parker. Yeah. So funny enough, one of the founders of Warby Parker knew me from my time and acumen, and so when I was at GC there he was running one of the nonprofits right out of college that we funded, and we ran into each other at a conference um and he came up to me and was like, you know, do you remember me. I'm doing this thing now. It's like, good for you. I didn't wear glasses. I really didn't understand the pain point. I didn't understand what

you're building. But then he reached out to me when I was at Google for about six years and he was like, hey, would you would you talk to me about this position. We're thinking about hiring a general counsel and we'd like that to be you. But the pattern is that you don't know what you're doing when you take these jobs, and you just go in and you

figure it out. Yeah, that's very much a pattern. And it's funny because, especially as a lawyer, I think that's not typical because usually you're as a lawyer, paid for what you already know, and then you do that again and again, and you sort of double down on the expertise and just get to charge more and more for that expertise. And what I found is a that's not fun for me. So I'm happy to do it to a point, but I get bored really easily doing that. Um,

And I think there's way better lawyers than me. Frankly. I think there's like people who are so good at what they do with the legal stuff, and they really

love the nuances and the weeds of the law. But I like, you know, figuring it out, untangling the spaghetti, and then passing off to somebody else who can do it again and again and then moving on to the next thing, because how long will you or be I was there three years, three years, and then you went to well, then I left because I got a book deal. So I ended up writing a book which had nothing to do with any of this stuff. And the name, the name of the book the book is called Stocking

God my unorthodox search for something to believe in. And it is funny. It is, it is honestly, it's a comedy as you are hysterical, you're you're one of those like bright, bright brains, but super funny. No, I appreciate that, thank you. That's the goal. Yeah, it was a really fun project. I had come up with this idea with my daughter, who just turned eleven, if you can believe it. Um, I think she was like three when you and I

got home. Yeah, um, so she just turned eleven. But when she was born, I realized that I didn't really know what I believed about religion and spirituality and sort of the big questions in life that you couldn't google and answer to. But I realized that Zia is my name, that she would one day soon be asking me all kinds of things I didn't know, and so maybe I would try to figure it out. So it started as just a little project. I would go and meet like a cookie healer, or I would go to like some

spiritual thing and do little things around the city. And then it sort of took on a life of its own and turned into this project. Um, and it's sort of before everybody was meditating. You know, It's like that stuff was super mainstream, um, at least in my circles, and so I still felt like I was a little out there doing this, but I was willing to try. And I think what people responded to is like I told the stories that like cock told parties and never funny,

and my friends would laugh. And then people are just like, you have to write the stuff down, like there's something here. And then it turned into a book and then you've had one more job before we go into your new life, right, you had one more gig, which is at Chat. Yes. Correct. So once as my book was coming out, I think when I finished the book, I literally turned in the final draft and an old colleague from Google who had started Chatter transponed board. He reached out to me and

was like, you know, we're building this thing. It was sort of the same things that we're building this thing, um, would you come talk to us and we think we need a chief people officer. That's how the conversation started. And I was like, I don't know that stuff, but yeah, I have nothing that knew. I'm happy to chat. And when he was telling me what they were doing, I was like I was it's pretty interesting, and I know nothing about the news world or media in that way.

A part of my time working on YouTube stuff, and I was like, you know, I'm curious. Sure, I'm happy to do this. And I love culture. I think that stuff is really important. How you treat employees, what how to get the best from people, Diversity, inclusion, all those issues were things that I was super interested in. UM so I took the job. And then this also became a pattern where they kind of through in the second job, like, oh,

can you also be our general counsel? Was like yeah, sure, so I was doing sort of that very womanly way too for the price of one. And and do you have people that you call and discuss this with? Is it your husband? Is it you want to say, Well, we've never had the financial discussion. You know, That's what I'm saying. That's a really good point. The financial discussions are hard for me. It's so interesting. I'm really trying to work that muscle and get better at it. Um

I wasn't you know. I was definitely raised with that generation where it's just not polite to talk about money. You just you don't ask those questions. I don't know like, it's all this stuff that I know is wrong, and I would advise anybody else not to take that advice. I think that's definitely a hard thing, and I know it's hard for women. It's definitely hard, and I wish

it weren't true. And I'm really trying to get better because the only way it gets better for all of us is if we all are sharing the math and really understanding, like, hey, but I've gotten better about certain things, Like I will when friends are telling you, like for speaking engagements and that kind of thing, and like they're paying you what you need to be asking for four times that, and I'm like, well, and then I will tell them this is what I got paid when I

do a keno. When you are way way more popular than you have way more expertise on issue acts like you're the Michael Jordan, I'll blank, you should be paid accordingly. And um, I think that's helped all of us be more transparent. So much of what you do, it's like a snowball. You know, you do one thing and that takes on and it just keeps growing. So your book is also the gift that keeps on giving. Is it true that your ted talk. You've got four million? How

many people I haven't looked? Well, I have to go. It's over for me, and I thing over four million people have senior type Yeah, that's unbelievable. Isn't that crazy? Yeah? It's crazy. So so what was it like doing a Ted Talk? It was incredible. It was an out of body experience. I mean, I was so humble to be asked to do it. And then I got really in

my head about what should I talk about. I was like, well, I have to, you know, talk about saving the world, and I have to talk about business and social good through business and like all these things that I care about. And I don't know why I didn't occur to me right off the bat, just to talk about this journey that I went on for this book that was coming out. And finally I was like, oh, you know what I have to do is just tell a really great story. That's what I have to do because I'm not an

expert at blank. I didn't discover a cure for cancer, like I don't have that guy, which is a lot of what Ted talks are um. So I was like, I'm just gonna tell something that I am uniquely qualified to talk about, which is my journey on this particular topic. Um So that's what I did. So I just told the story of my attempts to sort of find religion and spirituality and the answers to the big questions in life.

Um and that I failed at it miserably. But then the you know, kind of cut away at the end was that, but here's what I found instead, which was that everybody, regardless of their religious affiliation, of their socio economic background, if anything, we're all looking for the same three things which in my research, my my qualitative research um or health, happiness, and love. And so I kind of take people through that journey health, happiness, and love.

I mean, honestly though, that's like the essence of probably why we connected, Like those are those are three things that are very important to me, you know, and the reason you know, the next season of my podcast, I've been thinking a lot about where I want to take it and what I want to do, and for the third season, I realized that my my passion right now

is helping people. I mean, it always has been. It's it's empowering, encouraging, making people, allowing people to learn how to feel comfortable in their skin, which that's confident and just the whole empowerment thing, you know. Being Look, I was a working mother, you know, I was a commuting mother, and I just really think that we need to build our community. And I just thought who better to have

these conversations than you. You're the only person I thought of than you know, and you also have this amazing network of cool women that you know, have stories to tell and have ways to inspire other people. So well, I'm excited and I feel like you and me and a roll, a dux and a telephone, we could we could solve any problems. I think the two of us, we will, you know, will turn it into something else. So let's do you know, I do believe that you're

stronger together than you are alone. I love a collaboration. I think, you know. It's um It's funny when you when I go through all the things that I've done, and a lot of it's just because I've done things for shorter amounts of time, Like I didn't run a company like you did for twenty five years. That was my own brand that I felt, you know, it's a different thing. I've been mostly an operator working for somebody

else's vision UM. But my favorite times at any of those places, or side projects or any of it is always in a collaboration because I love the give and take of that. I love the exchange of ideas. I don't want to be the smartest person in the room. I wanted to be a very middle of the pack and learned from everyone around me. And so UM, that's so fun to get that advice from people and people like you. But you are working on a couple of things now. I have been advising companies, so I started

my own advisory company that I'm calling Slightly Reserved. There's a back story there that I won't for you with, but it's I just advise about twenty startups and mostly it's the founders that I'm really advising UM and the kind of industry agnostic it's all over the map, everything from fintech companies to beauty and wellness companies like Natural Beauty, UM, some supplement companies, and then you know kind of everything

in between. It's like a nice mix of companies, subtext and non tech, mostly women and people of color founders, which I love. UM. When then I have a handful of legal clients just because they are incredible people, and so I can't help myself, and I want to help some of those books. And then I have some media projects that I'm kicking around, which has been a really fun you know kind of second chapter or whatever chapter I'm in at this point through chapter UM, that I'm

super excited about. And I think a lot of that came from doing the Toxic Google, doing you know, the Ted talks certainly in the book UM, and doing some public speaking around the book, and just around my time at warby Parker, I started getting out there more and like you said, you know, kind of having a bit more of a public profile as much as you can have a public profile doing the nerdy things that I do. But um, yeah, so these things are now coming in.

So we're developing my book into a limited series or a comedy series, which is super super are exciting. It's very early stages, but uh, you know from which cross I think there's so much room for content, as we've seen in the past year. So this podcast is all about what people could learn from the people that inspire me. And you are here because you inspire me, Like, what do you think that our listeners could learn from you?

And where you've been to where they are, well, I hope they can learn that not knowing what you're doing is actually a strength, not a weakness. Like going into things, um with a bit of a beginner's mindset and staying open two things I think can really put you in

a position of strength. I think we have a culture that really overvalues expertise and a way that um, you know, it's great obviously you want to be an expert at stuff, but a fresh perspective without carrying a lot of um kind of preconsilt notions about what's possible and what's not possible, can make you do things really really differently. And so I think you can do that sort of as a company, but even as a person and the way you approach your work. I think it's really important. And what kind

of fearful things have you overcome in your career. I

think I'm getting better at advocating for myself. So it sort of what we were talking about earlier, just you know, setting up what I need to be successful, making sure I asked about things that I'm concerned about before taking a position or before working with somebody, are taking on a client, and that's not something I was always so good at Like, so I think even when I left Google, initially I my daughter was about three and I was going to Warby Parker and the team, you know, the

senior team I thought was all single, no kids. That didn't end up being the case, but I would never have asked them about how they think about, you know, working parents and what sort of flexibility they offer an a that kind of thing, had you not pushed me to frankly so, because I remember we had a conversation right before I was deciding, and You're like, is there anything left unset is or anything that you're still concerned about? And I raised this issue with you and I said, well,

you know, my daughter is only three. Um, I think this is it. You first encouraged me to have more kids, and I was like, did my mom call you? And was like I gave that just um. But then I was like, well, I'm concerned about this one piece because I have incredible flexibility at Google. I've earned a lot of goodwill and trust there and so I can do you know, I can kind of do what I need to do and be there for my child and then

also be really effective at work. And so I'm nervous about going into this senior position at a small, you know, a fast growing startup, and what does that look like if my daughter is only three And she's like, well, you have to ask a question. You said to me, you have to ask a question. I was like, I can't do what I can't you know, wait after I've been there a couple of year, then I'll ask you, like,

you have to ask the question. I was like, okay, I'm just gonna stuck it up and ask the question. And so what happened? What always the old women? To all one of the founders, and he was like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you asked. Of course, whatever you need, you know, you should talk to Lan or cto. He's got kids and you know, whatever you need and whatever flexibility you need, of course will be supportive of all that. We love family, you know, we we all

want kids. Like he was really so gracious about it, and he said all the right things, and I was like, oh, thank god I asked, because I would have been so nervous going in and I think it would have taken me a really long time to build up the nerve to um to have that flexibility to ask for it. So things like that I think we're really important, Like ask for what you need before you go into something, and then if they say no, you have to go

home and decide exactly. At least you haven't answered, You're not like wondering what the answer is. Yeah, because they usially could have been like nope, for her eight a m. Until ten pm. We expect you on seven and that's the deal. And then that's a different answer and that's okay, that's okay too, and that could be the expectation, but um,

it wouldn't have been right for me. So what would you say to someone that's having issues in their career right now where they're stuck at at a job they're not happy with, or they're trying to get their business off the ground. What kind of encouragement and advice would

you give people? So these are these are pretty unusual times, which I think makes my answer a little bit different because I do recognize that obviously, the security of a job, the challenges of the current job market, working from home, all those kinds of things make it really difficult to make a big job switch in this time or to

launch a new idea. Um But that said, I think, if anything, or if nothing else, this past year has really taught us that life is super super short, and you really want to spend your time doing things that you love with people that you respect and that respect you. So I would encourage you to start thinking about what that really looks like for you and telling people and

asking around and finding the right environment. I think, you know, what I've found is that it almost doesn't matter what you're working on if you're doing it with people that you really enjoy working with. And so I think that's the biggest, biggest lesson that I've had just over the course of my career, and certainly the past years proven that time and time again. So I would stay focus on the people first. And I would also say make sure you have a posse totally, make sure you have

people you could talk to you're not by yourself. Yeah, I think that's right. Like a tribe of people. I've heard friends referred to them for referred to their posse as like their board of advisors or personal board of advisors, And I think there is something to that of having people around you. I actually do this for my daughter um every year on her birthday, I gift her what we call a wise woman, and so it's somebody from

our lives some time she knows them really well. Sometimes there's somebody from my life that I think would be an incredible mentor and person for her to know and to be close to and just to have a relationship with in some way because of whatever she's into that year, or whatever she's really excited about, or just shortcomings that I find in myself, frankly, because I know that I can't be everything for her, and I know that there will be times that she does not want to come

to me for advice, and so I want her to feel like she's got a lot of trusted women in particular around her that she has access to and that she has an independent relationship with from me. So I think it's kind of like creating that for her now at age eleven, um, so that she has that. But it took me a long time to figure out that I needed that for myself too, So I think it's because I was doing it for myself that I started doing it for her. That's a that's a very cool thing.

So would you also tell everyone where they can get more of you, where they could find you? Sure? I'm on social at Julie Kumar or you can go to my website adeliumar dot com and my book is called Stocking God my unworth box. Search for something to believe in. Please support independent booksellers, so trying to find it there

and otherwise. Amazon always has coffees I suspect And you can go into my I G t V on Just Bobby dot com and see a virtual makeup lesson I did before we launched Jones Road and uh got it got a lot of people saying that they wanted to do it. So I hope it's going well for you. Oh yeah, of course. And you can find me on I G t V. I do a series called Teach Me Anything, and literally Friends of Mine Bobby was my first episode Teach Me Anything, so that you know, we

do episodes very hap pastorally, but they're really fun. All right. I love you, I love you too, Thank you for having me. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. The