This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The Business station. Hello and welcome to Beyond the ballot box. I'm Duhan. Johan. Israel has continued its destruction of Gaza. Around 40,000 Palestinians have been killed. So far half of whom are Children besides weak statements about so called red lines. The United States of America currently led by Joe Biden has continued to give their full backing to Israel to remind everyone this conflict did not start on the seven months ago,
on the seventh of October. The Palestinians have suffered ethnic cleansing and oppression by Israel for 75 years. Israel is an appetite state but a couple of things for Malaysians to ponder one, are we as a nation doing enough to help Palestinians and two? Why is it that in many parts of the world, the struggle for Palestinian liberation has reinvigorated progressive forces. But in polarized Malaysia, even this issue is used to sow division around racial lines.
Joining me on the show to discuss these very heavy topics is none other than YB neural Ia Anwar, she's the vice president of Klan. She's also the former MP of Perma Pao YBN. Welcome to the show. How are you today?
Thank you so much. T I'm good. I think both of us recovered from the influenza successful, but of course, we feel very so bad to hear the updates. Um And I don't think anyone really feels the same after being, after seeing so much destruction and um and unfolding this genocide,
it's been incredibly harrowing. How do you reflect on the events since October? Not to mention the 70 plus years of illegal occupation, land grabbing ethnic cleansing. How do you reflect on all this?
You know, actually, you know, we we're building from the experiences and the work that has been done by so many, I think um Prof Singh was one of the first few people I've met, I met following the 7th October um attacks because he knew precisely the preceding decades of oppression of ethnic cleansing of the apartheid regime um placed that caused so much consternation and of course, led to so much strife and it was his KL war crime tribunal of 2013 in Malaysia no less that helped open
up so many the eyes of so many. So I think, you know, we discussed that and he actually even in those early days who expected the depravity and the cruelty to last for so long. I mean, right after the IC C gave it the announcements issue, the the warrant for war crimes, you're talking about nothing short of 60 bombs, you know, unleashed in Rafah supposed safe zone. So prof goal was
really one of the persons I referred to. He warned us of the, you know, the issues of continued propaganda from the Zionist regime and how they are strongly linked, not just economically as you can see, right, one way or the other. It's going to be a very challenging uphill battle to kind of disproof. And of course, today, we know that the 40 be hated babies who are fake.
And unfortunately, in Rafa, when there's an actual burning of Children and babies, this wasn't really being given much coverage specifically by the Biden in American a government. So I think his position is we must remain ahead of the curve. You must understand that this is going to take place and it's going to be a long term struggle to not just showcase the truth but also
the champion for Palestinian sovereignty. You see how Norway Spain and Ireland have kind of woken up and declared this and I think this is the way that you will have to take on to move to the next step. So I mentioned three things, defend, delegitimize and defend Palestine. But it's really prof Gurdial who actually then introduced me to Dr Aung Swee cha from Beirut to Jerusalem. Brilliant. I mean, I eat less. No, you know, nothing less than that.
And I feel there are so many giants, you know, who have been there who've been advocating and such a diverse multicultural activist activism at work. Um And that's why for me celebrating it, understanding, this is about fighting colonialism, fighting against oppression and ensuring that liberty. And of course, um sovereignty for Palestinians takes place.
What are your thoughts on the complicity of certain Western countries, particularly the US in this genocide? Right? Because as many people have pointed out, we are not just going up against Israel, we are going up against Israel with the complete backing of the American Empire, its closest allies.
I think it's nothing short of shocking. I mean, the level of not just support, I think enabling of the ongoing genocide.
Malaysia is a nation that never denied the holocaust took place but to see an unfolding the second holocaust and to also see the complicity of western nations and what what you've unheard what unearthed what you've led from your series of actions, weaponizing, enabling them is to create a rogue state in which brings so much danger to everybody because you have a clear cut national humanitarian rule of law, right?
Standards that everyone has to respect and countries have been sanctioned before so many when they cross the red line, right? But when you allow for such impunity, it's a danger to the entire entire world. And I think that's what's so concerning because of course, the sheer hypocrisy, I think we join the groups and the students across American universities who have been speaking up and taken such a terrible onslaught for it. Right.
They've been initially abused during this peaceful encampments. And I think there's a testament, there's a huge disconnect from what the government in the Biden administration is doing and what the people are actually expressing. I remember I was in the US when the war in Iraq took place and the then president came to visit and I was one of the protesters against the Iraq war. Um, you know, lost a lot of friends there. But I have to say, yeah, but this is the thing, right?
We have to be consistent. And the problem is when when you are not adhering to your list of demands on others, when you are really showcasing your own inner hypocrisy, then definitely you're going to be, you should be called out. I think the bigger issue is at the same time,
you see this growth, right? This, this movement of global South, this moral imperative being brought forward by none other than a former colonized state like South Africa, like Brazil, you know, the fact that a country that has spoken out very strongly and they've showcased that the world order can be much, much better and fairer. And I think this should be a wake up call for the US to do. What's right? I think, you know, it shocks me that we're on our seventh month. It's um it's unacceptable.
Do you think we can do more as a country to help Palestinian people? Especially Palestinian people who are here in Malaysia, refugees as a whole who are here in Malaysia.
So I've written about this together with fellow Asian Yolanda Augustine, I believe very strongly about this. I think it's important to also look at the past examples. If you look at the Bosnia case in Malaysia was there was at the forefront even allowing them, of course, providing education. But in terms of the refugee perspective or ecosystem, what I stated clearly was to look at examples where
it is symbiotic. It is not something that the nation will lose out because I understand there's so much fear and security, but we also must remain consistent right back home. And I hope that communities and stakeholders can be more empathetic. And I see this from many quarters. Nonetheless, Turkey's example, really showcases the opportunity where, you know, when work permits are accorded. Then of course, you are also able to ensure that refugees are beneficiaries to the government or the
host government. But it really requires a lot of empathy acceptance. It is not very popular to say this. But I, I always believe this and I I said it at the Mercy International Humanitarian Conference. You know, sometimes we look at our lives and it's akin to a lottery of birth, the fact that we have citizenship, the fact that we are living in peace and these are great blessings. But by the same token, you know, we could also be born in Rafa, a war on
a challenging region or even, you know, our neighbors. So I don't have to go far. I think more can be done. I did of course celebrate the effort, you know, Hasanah, according scholarships, we're talking about some programs that are being supported. The Ministry of Higher Education did lend its support to current students, Palestinian students studying in our various universities. But of course, you have to look
at it far more holistically. And then, you know, we keep on bringing this as a case for concern while also taking into account, I would say rather hostile local environment. But yes, I think we are always going to be the better for it. Right.
Absolutely. And also on that note about doing more, some people, I think unfairly tend to brush off Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim's pro Palestinian speeches on the internet national stage. They say it's just why. But I disagree. I think it's incredibly important. I felt very proud as a Malaysian watching the Prime Minister's school, German Chancellor on the Palestinian struggle. I think he represented people who were
formally colonized really well. But at the same time, I have to also ask recently, there was a national security Asia exhibitions organized by our government,
the solidarity for Palestinian coalition. They held a brief rally outside the exhibition center to protest the presence of us weapons manufacturers, Lockheed and Martin et cetera, which were, and these were seen to be weapons promoting weapons manufacturers, whose bombs are being dropped in Rafa right now, do you think this is a bit of a contradiction on our part? A bit of a slight bit of hypocrisy as well.
I think it's very important for the ministries, especially the ones hosting the state event to be cognizant that even in the whole list of demonstrations taking place in the US? I remember there was a substack email, Adam to actually covered the students research in terms of why is it? They're so angry. So issues of investments and we understand is deeply interlinked. But
it also should be a good reminder, right? And I applaud that there are voices, they are of course organizations speaking up highlighting this and it's important to take into account. I'm not gonna say it's going to be easy. We understand the precarious position everyone is in. But by the same token, we also have to take that extra step.
So it's good that it's being highlighted. And I hope that they take it very seriously because all this, all these things, I mean, they are profiteering from, from death essentially.
And one of the things that Adam too said surprisingly enough in a podcast recorded at Johns Hopkins University, the School for Advanced International Studies where I studied, I'm surprised he was speaking there, but I was happy because he said, please, you know, we can't forget the fact that every single time there's a war, the us dollar is propped up. I mean, there's no concern in
the stock market actually spikes whenever bombs are dropped.
And I think this is the issue right where it hurts most, unfortunately, for some, it's not where they feel deep down inside, but where the pockets are. Right. So I think this is where we can really be more deliberate and consider, especially as we plan ahead next year or next month.
How challenging is it for countries like us in the global South to maintain these strong stance, moral consistency while also relying on countries like America for F DS to prop up our economy.
So, you know, it's interesting because I I'm reading this book by Kon Lee who is a South Korean economist in the, you know, he after Ha Chang about the same generation, the um the issue of middle income traps, right? How do you escape one? And he said that while research has shown and this includes, I think a research by IMF if I'm not mistaken, surprisingly that if you, if you take into account FDI itself is not, is not necessarily beneficial for every country receiving it.
So it depends also the level of absorbing absorption, the level of how it actually empowers the local economy, the local stakeholders. So I think we got to be more mindful. It's great I think to be fair to Malaysia, you know, ma has been doing its homework, it's been really demanding that we get benefits and multiplier impact. But I believe that this is why when we talk about even carrying FDI the specter of the global South doesn't just come with a moral compass.
Come in the form of bricks, they come in the form of a new development bank. And I think that's so important because it's concretize and the fact that Thailand is showcasing his interests is a good, it's a good beginning. Doctor Eric Lee was invited by Hasan in the American transport. What did he say? This is his words again, as you know, I'm sure others are listening to me today. Um He, he said, you know, we talk about the global North as if
they represent the majority, but actually they do. And of course, you know, you know, I have studied in the US. I'm just saying at the end of the day, we have to be just, we have to be fair. And if this is an age where there is a sense of rejuvenation, the global South renaissance, why not? Because more the reason we want a safer world, we don't want a world where, you know, we can be at the mercy of those with colonialist mindsets, those who believe they are superior, those
who believe they are exceptional in comparison to others. And I think that's the basic survival instinct even for us. So if you know, if we're open and you know, if you deal with this valley and the rules apply equally to everyone regardless of the color of your skin. So I think this is where you know it, it's a good lesson and I'm not talking just externally everything. And then the way I see it, it is
a test for everyone. How can you do better? It's not just about others but how can you do better?
Let's go for a very quick break on the show with me today is YB Nurul, Ia Anwar. She's the vice president of Kadan. She also former MP for Perma Tan Pao. We will continue this conversation after these messages on Beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9 because freedom matters. BFM 89.9. Welcome back to Beyond the ballot box. I'm D Johan. And on the show with me today is Ya Anwar is the vice president of Kan and the former MP for Permatang Pao. This conversation is also available as a podcast.
You can look up beyond the ballot box on the BFM app, Spotify or where we get your podcast from. So what the role I want to look a bit inwards. Um Firstly, I think from a political class perspective, I want to say that I'm very glad that our political class from past to KD A all the way to PSM and all of that, everyone on this particular issue, they are on the same page, everyone is in solidarity with Palestine. However, if we look at this, I find
this quite interesting. The protest for the liberation of Palestinians taking place all over the world have been inspiring and in countries where the heads of states where the state is in support of the genocide, it has become, these protests have become a sort of a reinvigoration of progressive voices. It has brought progressive voices from unions to social democrats, Muslim democrats, even Marxists all sorts of things in a multi anti imperialist coalition.
But in Malaysia, it feels like it's taking on slightly different shapes. Sometimes these, this issue is being weaponized by far, right, majoritarian forces to attack ethnic minorities or Jewish people as a whole. We've seen Muftis posting praises for Hitler on Twitter and saying he was right, Hitler was right to commit the holocaust. We see the ethnic Malays attacking the Non Malays for apparently not being pro Palestine enough or not boycotting enough
despite good. When we go on the ground, you've been in protest, I've been in these rallies themselves. These marches are multi and at the same time, even among the Non Malays, they tend to say things like, oh why should, why should you even care about this cause? It is just a Muslim thing. You know, we are looking at this again through this racial and religious prism that has plagued this country for so long. What does this tell you about the level of polarization in Malaysia today?
So I think we need to take stock of the polarization is not just something that Malaysia experiences, it's also something that has taken out, taken on a more global impact. There's even studies that have showcased the polarization between girls and boys, whether you know, in China, South Korea America, even even developed nations, we're talking about differences of world view, right? Differences in terms of educational qualification.
So it's, it's concerning and I think we, we need to also equip ourselves and I quote Dr Yardi here because whenever he talks about Palestine, he reminds us all read up, you know, improve your knowledge on it because it's very challenging. Of course, is you're talking about tens
of decades, right of history here. So certainly, you know whether Miko Pellet, whether I these are Jewish names, even John, the sheer who I referred to when I was doing my masters, I was so happy that he he, you know, he understood what ethnic cleansing meant, which to him was to be the detriment to Israel itself because it will not cleanse them of their, of Hamas. So I think this is where it's something that has to be embraced. It is a challenge.
II I must state that at the end of the day, we go back to understanding, I see it more or so as a legacy, you know, we're talking about the divide and and conquer policies from our former colonial masters. So we're speaking about how we live in the different silos and this has of course, have to be broken and it was worsened through the pandemic
because there's so much anxiety, so much economic insecurity. And of course, you see the different changes in government and you feel far more cynical about the powers that be or about person of authority. So in this climate where Voila, you have social media, people feel connected more quickly to kind of different access to news that are unverified.
This is a perfect storm and you see this being translated to the protest, you see this through the discourse and it means we have to take stock and immediately kind of understand the midterm long term and immediate actions that we take that has to take place. I I firmly believe in terms of the education system. How do you make sure there's kind of seamless integration because we are, we are like the most stable multi nation, one of the most in the world. I mean, we're so blessed.
I remember when I was, I went to China for that trip as head of land. And there's like, I'm bringing everyone from different states, from different racial tribes. And I feel my goodness, you know, this is really kind of our microcosm
of the world, right? You know, but at the same time, I think what I, what I sense is you need to actively work on the content curriculum, on schools, on a different discourse in mosques along the different persons and leaders of influence and you also need to kind of nip certain statements in the bud. I actually you are the one who highlighted to me what the Mufti in act. I I I'm pretty, I mean, this is unacceptable, it's unacceptable.
That is the concern, right? Because I think there is no denying that when we look at modern history, when comparing to a lot of other multi countries, we have done pretty well for that for ourselves. If we are being perfectly honest, like you, I mean, yes, there was May 13, but we handled broadly, you know, we've been moving without many conflicts and all
these kinds of things, right? But the worry is that things are getting worse, the inter ethnic sort of polarization, regardless whether you're Malay or non Malay or anything, right? That people feel like the other side is the other, I think it's getting worse. But on top of that, there is also this rise of right wing ultra conservative majoritarianism backlash. We are seeing this in many other countries
as well. You know, whether it is Modi in India, you have the Trump, we have the AFD in Germany, all these movements and even in Malaysia, people who are paying very close attention can see that it's more than just pass, this is an entire network. They have the media, they have penetrated religious schools, they have programs, they are making Blockbuster movies with racist undertones and revise history. So why is this happening. Why is this thriving today?
Um You know, it's, it's something that keeps me up at night. So I of course I'm concerned, but I think one of the key driving reasons as to why they have g of followers is because that whole sense of economic ridden insecurity and anxiety. So that class divide again, class divide because when you feel that you're deprived that you are not enjoying parts of the economic growth that the country is experiencing. So I think that's why we talk about these extreme focus on poverty eradication, right?
But it's not just poverty, it's about opportunities, right? So I feel that whether it's a gig economy and everyone knows it's a not just a precarious sector, you're not going to be paid much more in the next five years compared to your current income. So then the focus on TV factors in very, very crucially because at the end of the day, they have to be paid much better by through the upskilling courses they take place. And that's
why education is for one thing, right? One managing the economy needs but the other bit and I wanted to actually highlight the trust school I visited in Papa, right? OK. So it's a collaboration between Ministry of Education and the cso's, it's been there for some time. And what I saw was you see when you start explaining the States in school, in terms of the things that you teach, why are you against Israel because you cannot be supportive of a rogue state, right? Because they've broken
the the international law that's applicable to every state. So I think placing it in clear cut understandings of principles of how law should be applied rather than sentiments help. But by the same token, if you're not being heard across the channels, they are viewing, they are listening to they in trouble, right? So it's like we're always playing catch up. So I think these contents, whatever progressive content, middle ground content
has to be made available on the different channels. So issues of regulation again is to keep online content safe. So you go back from education, then of course regulation which also allows for different progressive voices to emerge, right? Because I think at the end of the day, it will be diverse, there will be things that you might not like to hear, but it is not extreme, it is not asking and seeking for violence as a means, right to take action. So this is where we kind of have to be
very sophisticated in looking at it. You know, as part of sir, I issued a statement to make sure we look, you know, we we were having a few bills whether it's the um looking into the Replacements with Tradition Act. But I think it's important for parliament and select committees to kind of take stock because it requires different levels of government to assist.
I wanna get your thoughts on what we can do because on this inequality, right. In Malaysia it's because people are so siloed. I think we lack this empathy or putting ourselves in other people's shoes, right? Because you don't meet each other enough. Yeah, I think that's definitely one of it because when it comes to inequality sometimes we just tend to try and look at America and then copy and paste their sort of framework which I don't
think it applies. Because in Malaysia after independence, most of capital holders, business elites were ethnic Chinese professionals were mostly ethnic Indians and Chinese. While the Malays, yes, they had the Aristocrats, feudal class, but there was no middle class, most were farmers and fishermen. That is one huge inequality, things have improved. The gap is still very pronounced. But at the same time, you have these other forms
of anxieties. Inequalities like ethnic Indians face tremendous discrimination in the rental housing market. You know, and if you look at the Indian population in Malaysia, 7% Indian population, 25% of death in custody in prison, that's huge disproportionate representation. There there is that feeling that, you know, we are like the non Malays may feel
that you know, there's political disenfranchisement, social disenfranchisement. When we look at the median retirement savings, we see that economic disenfranchisement, Malay the population, they are about at 8000 ringgit retirement saving, the median Indians, 14,000 Chinese 43,000 ringgit big inequalities, these inequalities are wrapping itself around racial lines. How do you suggest we get over this and bridge the gap?
Earlier I mentioned about the gig economy, those who are working in the e healing sector and how crucial upscaling was. So the the the key word is actually mobility, career, mobility, social mobility, we understand that we're going to be beginning from different sort of benchmarks for different pay grades. But the point is there's mobility. So I think measuring and understanding that it also needs to include the stakeholders.
If you talk about the Indian community, it's about understanding how is it that they feel this mobility can be achieved and you can't have a one size fits all. I agree completely taking America American model goodness gracious me, right. I think they showcase what what can happen when you have quite negligible safety nets. And in Malaysia, I think the whole drive, whether it is in social well being and research center conference to get the help between PF prof norma was the big week there.
You allow for that level of support when a precarious situation hits you regardless of your race. Nonetheless, I think it really needs to be hone in further through the different upscaling opportunities accorded. And of course, for me, when we say that we're starting from different kind of benchmarks or or pay grades, then certain areas need to be focused on and given far more attention, not just the money, right? But it's like knowing where the money should go to.
So I think this is the, the, the challenge for Malaysia, especially in an age where everyone feels insecure. You know, every single small thing is, is kind of blown out of proportion. And honestly, I think dialogue, but just a huge deal of patience would, would help push the, the issue. I mean, you know, it's, it's something that I, I myself um find challenging but we in Kan, it was not easy as well because it was again, different races for the first
time having meetings, it will always be multiracialism. But I think eventually, you know, the socialization and this is where you alluded to the socialization that has to take place either in schools, in universities is almost something you kind of have to program into. And this is a challenge because there are many pockets
of homogeneous communities all over Malaysia. And I think it, it's, you know, I don't envy the government, but it is something that we have to kind of take on as one of the main challenges moving forward. Like every country you need to kind of know what's your comparative advantage, right? And I think for Malaysia, we got to get this bit stronger, strengthened, more cohesive in nature.
Let's go for a very quick break on the show with me today is Yb Nurul Iza Anwar. She's the vice president of Kadan. She also former MP for Perma Tang Pao, we will continue this conversation after these messages on beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9 because freedom matters, BFM 89.9. Welcome back to Beyond the ballot box. I'm Du Johan. And on the show with me today is YBN Ia Anwar. She's the vice president of Kan and the former MP of Perma Pao. This
conversation is also available as a podcast. You can look up beyond the ballot box on the BFM app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts from. So why I want to get your thoughts on something you said? I think in one of the PKR Congresses where you said something along the lines of the challenge now is translating years of social narratives and speeches into
actual policies. And I think that is indeed the what you know the right is waiting for because there is no denying that whether it's by Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim members of Kan as a whole Harapan for 25 years. It was very pro maha speeches, you know, going after the Maaya and all these kinds of things, brilliant speeches really inspired a lot of people.
So what are the challenges of translating all these social, socially progressive speeches, economically progressive speeches into actual concrete policies?
I think one of the great things that has taken place through the many governments in power is the fact that every party has experienced what it's like behind the driving wheel, right. So you understand the challenges in government. I was a member of parliament for 15 years and I would say that even at the PAC, we would not know as much as we did unless you know, you behind driving seat. Um And so for our, our cabinet,
you know, I do not envy them. I think it's extremely challenging because you have a far more reduced fiscal space. But it's important because everyone understands because every coalition in a way has this information at their fingertips. Now, the issue is, do you want to do the right thing? Do you want to be the responsible party, responsible stakeholder? And I think knowing and taking stock of everything and also managing expectations because the expectations is huge, it's huge. I mean, I
I get it as well, right? And sometimes there are things that we are able to do immediately low hanging fruits, but it also challenges. So for me, it's great to be, I wouldn't say a complete outsider. But at least I have a space where I can also engage with different sides from the civil society, from the different members, normal members who actually are similarly concerned. There are certain things that
they want to prioritize. But I think the issue is communicating that the effort is made, right, that reforms, I mean, I my pet or I, the thing I love most is perhaps that focus on making sure we have so many fragmented social services. How do we make sure that it's become far more integrated but also helps cushion everybody through a robust, stronger and better safety net. Right. Yeah. So I think even the approach we also tackling corruption, right?
But by the same token, you're also dealing with existing, that is your existing team. Right.
Exactly. And these are some of the things that can come off as disappointing. Right? To I think many of Haran's supporters, you see people like an Ibrahim like Klan who for the longest time they have the abolition of sedition act, for example. Right. So Anwar Ibrahim has gone to prison. He fought alongside civil society for years. He was one person, one of the people, you know, when, when he was going to give a speech in University Malaya and they blocked the gate and
they closed the gate and they locked it up. He alongside the students broke through that gate and gave the speech anyway. So people might ask what happened to that? An why brahim, what happened to that? Who was so resistant to power? Who was so brave in fighting power now seems to be part of this entrenched system where suddenly we cannot get rid of sedition act. Suddenly we need to protect specific interests. Suddenly we need to walk on egg shells.
So I think it's good that I was experiencing some level of disappointment in 2018. I think the fact that the matter is when you have formed a government. It's important to understand that it is not an idealized sense, right? Um And there will be certain challenges you face. It will be um still a win I was still proud of in 2018. But again, there's the things that in the steps I took to make sure that we had not just level playing field, but at least a way
to keep the executive in check through the PAC. Now moving forward today. Firstly, when I talked about we having the same team we have, of course, the same team of civil servants, the same different stakeholders who are, as you mentioned earlier, deeply polarized, it is extremely challenging management. But the way I also understand it is at least from my perspective, we need to move ahead and move forward and having a set of priorities helps in this matter, right?
So if economy is a priority for sure, doesn't mean you need to sideline. But you must remember there's also space whereby as much as you want to protect and preserve local domestic and national security, you must allow voices to be heard and different stakeholders to at least feel that, you know, I can, I can speak up, I can represent my viewpoints and the things I care about. So his visit, I think one of the programs, the anu
was good because at least there was space. I don't think in recent times you have um a space accorded where anyone can answer Prime Minister questions. Nonetheless, I mean, as someone who was there when University of Malaya speech was made for sure, I hope after we manage the economic reforms, we can turn to a key kind of specified more opening. I mean, I managed to to kind of prepare seven bills when I was as a private member bills when I was a
member of parliament. So certainly some of them should be discussed thoroughly. I would say this though the level of vitriol that's been banded about online and within the media, the new media because traditional media has taken such a back seat. If you compare to the early days of the pharmacy is cause for concern. I'm not going to say that it's not like it's going to be very, very challenging,
managing all of that. So finding the right balance by also making sure that no one falls under the Sedition Act. I mean, I was also being investigated before and to be fair, I think right now as much as we also understand the other concerns and for its utilization, I agree we do need to take stock but priorities have to be made. It was also 2018. So there were some lessons learned, right? Which one you prioritize? But again, it
is a work in progress. So for me coming to this stage after 25 years, um it was not as I had imagined fully, but I certainly believe there's always cause to keep fighting, you know, and keep voicing out because we need to do our bit to remind and that's important
earlier, you know, we talked a little bit about how the far right, they have an entire network in various areas. Why doesn't the progressive forces? One of it being Harapan does, why don't the progressive forces have that same kind of network? Because we are talking about, you know, obviously in a progressive fashion, right? We are talking about, you see, even when we look at Harapan supporters, Harapan supposed to represent
this pro democracy, multi kind of thing. But there are many Harapan supporters who are also quite racist, who are, you know, they just it's they're voting for upon because they are N TB and not because they believe in a particular ideology. And why do you think like let's say PKR right has struggled to provide a strong cohesive, appealing narrative of inclusive Malaysia and also progressive Islam, right? After all, a party with liberal democrats, Muslim democrats, even Muslim socialists like
Hassan Karim, right? So why hasn't that been appealing enough?
But precisely the point? Right? I mean, I think there was a study with all that, of course, you get more internal dissent, you know, you can't have it both ways. One of the key reasons why certain parties and I should not name it here. They have an ability to kind of garner support is because they are seen as stable because they're seen as unified despite every party will go through internal dissent for sure, internal conflicts, for sure. Right.
But by virtue of being diverse, of course, then you have democracy in action. So as much as you want to criticize, I sometimes in our party, we want the, the president to be more, you know, but so you can't have it both ways. I should, I'm sorry to tell you this. I think in 2018, I remember one study that struck me. Our supporters are far harsher and Harapan than the opposite coalition. They're more accepting. It's ok.
But that's because of the level of standard that you set for yourself.
Exactly.
And this is supposed to be har and hope it's open New Malaysia.
But I think there's also a lesson there that it does take time. We're talking more than six decades here, you know. Yes, if you was up to me, I wanted everything yesterday. But then I realize of course, things do move at a glacial pace. It is not up to us completely. We're a coalition government, right in life. Of course, you make compromises is, is, is part of adulthood, unfortunately. Right. But do I do, I silence myself? No, I, I
do what I can. But in a way that, you know, I feel could be beneficial, could be productive. I think we must also harness that kind of energy, excitement from our own supporters, from our members and also explain to them. I agree this bit. Yes, you need to take time to say, look, this is the plan and please bear with us and we are doing it. But I think part of the matter is also, it's just far more challenging when you deal with a
far more organized extreme. Right. Right. Extremely organized, well, networked, well funded. But, hey, you know, you can't complain that that's life. You just have to just carry on and get organized and do better yourself. So that's what I'm looking at. And I think um it's good being on the outside because you can sort of see things a bit more differently. And I, you know, I have a lot of respect for my colleagues.
It would be extremely challenging to, to kind of face and try to manage all the different problems all at once within your 1st and 2nd year. But I think internally we do need to communicate better. But if you talk about diversity, yeah, it's a good point. There's something that we are proud of. It's just at the end of the day, you do also want to make sure it's productive, the voices and the complaints I can vis a vis my party, right? You do it. We gotta carry on to the
finishing line, right? And the finishing line is not necessarily this conversation, bro. The finishing line is like three more years, four more years in the next election. So please bear with me. But yeah, um nothing to be envious of, but that's what you get when you are elected, you're supposed to do a job. So I think it's a, it's a good lesson in just understanding and just keep on, keep on doing what you can
be. No, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me today.
Thank you for making it very difficult for me. But thank you. I was happy to answer.
I've been speaking to Ibn Ia Anwar. She is the Vice president of Kadi Land and the former MP of Permatang Pao. I'm Rash Johan on beyond the ballot box. BFM 89.9 you have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9 the business station for more stories of the same kind. Download the BFM app.