You know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids soccer coach. She was younger and you know, we have lots of bedroom talk about and nothing happened, right? We just sort of fantasize about it. And, and she said to me one day, she said, you know, you sort of seem a bit sad after we, you know, we've been fantasizing about that. And we, she said, we don't have to do that anymore. That's making you jealous. And it was actually the opposite.
I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm not sad because it's fantasy. I'm sad because it's not, doesn't feel like it's going to become reality. And she was kind of surprised by that. And, and again, we'd had this heart to heart and, and I said, I really want you to do this, like pursue this. And so that was the first time we sort of had a, a real sort of, it's more of a, a cock
dynamic. There wasn't really the humiliation piece, but she was doing something on her own, you know, And it, it turned out better than expected for both of us. Hey everybody, I just wanted to give you a quick notice. I am starting to offer a one-on-one coaching session. It's called Ask Crystal. It is coaching for individuals and couples as they explore ethical non monogamy. Whatever your dynamic is. I've been living in this dynamic for 10 years and I've learned a
ton. And I hope to share some of that wisdom with you in the hopes that it will help you. So you'll get the details in the show notes and I hope to see you there. Good afternoon. Crystal Welch here and the Beyond Monogamy podcast today I'm very excited to have a conversation with. It's just a friend I met on Twitter of all places. He is a physician, a practicing physician. His wife and he are in some type of dynamic, which I'm gonna have
him describe. But it's been a really fascinating journey to hear how they are evolving and have evolved. And I thought it would be interesting for everyone to get a peek into this good doctor's life and and how he navigates this with his wife. So welcome, Doc Aaron. Crystal, thank you for for having me on your show. So let's start with why don't you tell us or tell our audience, how did you meet your
wife? And was your agreement in the very beginning to just have a sort of traditional monogamous marriage? Yeah, that's a good question. You know, we we met, we worked together actually, and, and met that way and, and pretty early on in our relationship had a fair amount of sexual adventure. And, you know, we both had a a pretty high sex drive. We got into, you know, some non monogamy, but it was, you know, always done together and in this
consensual way. So, you know, we went to some swimming, swinging clubs and we met some other couples and and, you know, it was fun. It never really was amazing though, you know, and, and it wasn't until we sort of did this more one sided monogamy that we sort of found that that that was the, the sort of spice that really fit for, for our
relationship. Tell us how that evolved for you because one of the questions, frequent questions that comes up for a lot of men is because this is typically a male driven dynamic. How do I get my wife to do this? And you know, how did that start for you? And then what was her response? I, I got lucky 'cause I'm, I'm probably one of the the rare guys where it was was more her
idea, at least initially. And we, we were talking one, one night and, and just kind of sharing past stories and, and she said, just tell me something kinky that you would, you know, I had done with a, a previous partner and I, I dated somebody when I was in university who, you know, have long distance
relationship with her boyfriend. So her boyfriend would come out and visit and when he would visit, they would end up having, you know, they'd have sex together and then she'd sort of come back and hang out with me after that. I mean, I had no idea what cuckolding was. Didn't really feel like a cuckolding thing, but I, I, you know, loved the experience and was recounting that to my wife and, and she really, you know, thought that was kind of pretty
neat. And, and then she started recounting stories of, of a boyfriend she dated in university. And, you know, her, her stories rivaled mine. You know, he had a roommate and, and it started with, you know, the roommate kind of listening to her and her boyfriend and they knew he would listen and it both got them both off. And she started, you know, progressing it to where she would leave the door open and, you know, he would sit on the couch.
Imagine like students, like small place, right? And you know, he'd sort of watched them and, and one time she just, you know, without asking her boyfriend, just invited him in and and took charge. And, you know, he sort of watched them up close and you know, it progressed over over weeks. And, and she said she had a great six month relationship with the two of them kind of trying out new things. And there wasn't a lot of recent activity.
Occasionally, you know, but it was more she would, she would be with one of them and then go be with the other one or one of them was making dinner and she'd be making out with one of them on the couch. Or she'd she'd recall movie nights where, you know, they'd be watching a movie where she's got a guy on each side of her and you know, she's kind of taking turns with them. And, and I just, I love that.
I mean, it was a huge turn on for me to hear that and clearly a huge memory and turn on for her. And, you know, I asked if it was something she'd want to do again and she absolutely said, you know, she, she would for sure. And, you know, and then it kind of progressed from there.
Cool. I heard a number of different things in there, but a, it sounds like she, she was sort of, she sort of gave herself permission early on to be sexually free, which is really cool because I think that's a hard place for a lot of women to reach. They have to sort of evolve to it.
So good on her for that. And then it also sounds like the configuration that she had in college there was sort of Poly flavored where, you know, it wasn't you, you said it wasn't really a threesome, but they all got along and they all you know, they she sort of switched back and forth. That's kind of a more of a Poly dynamic.
So because what I'm seeing in the field out here is a lot more cut couples are kind of evolving, seems like to me anyway, many cut couples are evolving toward a polydynamic where they might have one boyfriend that's more steady. I I know a number of couples who have live in boyfriends, so there's a lot of possibility there.
Have you ever while you guys were developing your own rhythm and your own interests, did you ever Have you ever found yourself feeling jealous or left out as your wife took lovers but. You know, I have a little bit, I mean, it's, it's part of the appeal of it, right? And I think what you see about Polly, probably, you know, it's probably accurate. You know, for my wife, at least a one time stand or one day stand doesn't really work.
You know, it's got to be somebody that she has a connection with and and you know, and then develops a bit more of a relationship with, right. And it just makes it safer. You can do more things. And but there was always still a bit of a power dynamic like she would she would be the one in charge that the times it didn't work well was, you know, we were, I had to find somebody online or through a dating site or something else.
And if I was pushy, really wanting somebody or wanting this to happen, I mean, it just didn't work right. So like her being in charge and her her finding somebody that she could really connect with, you know, it made it better, you know, certainly better sex for her. It was just more intriguing for me. I never really had this huge jealousy. Like I really did like knowing that that she was having a
really good time. There was just something, there's a little bit of angst there, but not a lot. Like there was something that it was just such a turn on about that, you know, the first time we did it because we can't, we sort of had swinging things. We've been in the same room with other couples and swapping. We didn't do that a lot, but you know, she really enjoyed or liked the soccer coach, our kids soccer coach. He was younger and and you know, we'd have lots of bedroom talk about it.
Nothing happened, right? We would just sort of fantasize about it. And and she said to me one day we're sitting down at the beach having kind of just a heart to heart talk about our relationship. And she said, you know, you sort of seem a bit sad after we, we, you know, we've been fantasizing about that. And, you know, we, she said, we don't have to do that anymore. That's making you jealous. And it was actually the opposite. I said, no, no, no, it's, I'm
not sad because it's fantasy. I'm sad because it's not, doesn't feel like it's going to become reality. And she was kind of surprised by that. And again, we did this heart to heart and, and I said, I really want you to do this, like pursue this. And so that was the first time we sort of had a, a real sort of, it's more of a, a dynamic. It wasn't really the humiliation piece, but she was doing something on her own, you know, And it it turned out better than expected for both of her.
That's fantastic. And the other thing that I'm hearing too in your description is you guys really take your communication seriously. Like she's concerned about you having jealous feelings. You're wanting her to have pleasure. I mean, that's, that's really good stuff for a healthy relationship, which is why, you know, I get back to why isn't everybody doing this? But of course, everybody won't ever do it. But it's it, it's such rich ground.
If you can find that place where you know you both are invested in it, you both are having fun, you're both stimulated, it's keeping your relationship fresh and growing all the time. I think those are such important things.
And those are some of the things I think go stale in the monogamy world and why a lot of people choose to pursue something like this because it's, as I've said many, many, many times, my favorite psychologist, Esther Perel has said, you know, all human beings have two core conflicting needs, the need for safety and security and the need for change and adventure. That's hard and that causes a lot of conflict in monogamy.
If the this this way of being consensually non monogamous really solves both of those issues, do you feel that that's that that's potentially true for you? I mean, I that's how I see it for us, my husband provides the safety and security and stability that the relationship needs. You know, I bring the heat. That's how it works at our house. Well, Crystal, absolutely right. I mean, I, I think that that those two needs are probably even more true for women than
men. You know, I mean, if you look at the research, the it's upwards of 50% of men fantasize about this, right? And it's a very small number that do it and it's a smaller number of women who fantasize it but about it. But I think, I think women, you know, they may be looking at it from a place of fear and just not enough understanding about it. I think men bring it up to women in a terrible way. And, you know, the porn and stuff out there is terrible.
So, you know, people just get a, a wrong conception or, or idea of, of what this can be right? It, it, it can actually be something quite beautiful and, and, and you know, quite amazing for all three people involved or more, depending how you set it up. If you, if somebody came to you, let's say you had a patient that came to you and was asking your advice, saying they were conflicted and they wanted their wife to do this, but they didn't know how to bring it up.
Or maybe it's a woman saying, you know, my husband wants me to do this. I'm not sure about it. Sounds intriguing. How would you advise them? Well, I can tell you I would, I would definitely not talk about this with patients. OK. So that that would, yeah. That's right. You're not a you're not a psychologist, so that's not
really your wheelhouse. But but you know what, it is something that that I mean, you know, I can tell you certainly a good rich sex life is really important for health, right? I mean it, it's a huge part of being human. I think monogamy can work for a lot of people. I think it doesn't work for a lot of people. And I think, you know, I would encourage people to, to take a
risk and explore the options. It doesn't mean it's right for everybody, but, but at least have the conversation, right? And I, I think there's a lot of people out there who just don't have the conversation. So they, you know, they either miss out on something or worse, you know, they, they go have an affair or something else, right, Which you know, is, is harmful to a relationship as well. So, you know, there's, there's huge potential benefits from this.
And, and I can certainly tell you from experience when, when my wife has a new boyfriend and you know, it's not that often, right? But like when she has a new boyfriend and it's sort of hot and heavy in those first few months, like, you know, will sometimes play around with denial, but like she's much more turned on.
She's much happier. There's definitely much more desire or she'll try to do the the chastity things sometimes with me, but you know, or denial, but she she always breaks it before me, you know, so you. Know that's a terrible problem to have, Absolutely. You know, so I, I don't know that I could truly do do that. Well, we tried a little bit, but. It sounds to me though, that you guys are playful, you're having fun with it. You, you don't bend it hard and
fast rules. You just experiment with things. I mean, I think a lot of those things are the key elements, the key elements to keeping it fresh, keeping it fun, keeping it alive and just being creative and supportive of one another. I think that's it's really just beautiful how you've explained it. So I appreciate your your story very much. Like having having that connection being authentic, you know, if something's not working, you know, speak up works better.
I found if you know the the female part of the relationship is determining, you know, who's she gonna meet and that sort of stuff, right? It it really you gotta let her her run the show a little bit. With this, I think that's really key. I mean, 'cause really one of the core tenants, as I understand it is, and the way that we pursue this is very much like like you guys do. This is a it, it should be, it should be a female choice.
I mean, we're not the opposite of that is how it's portrayed in porn as a fulfillment of a male sexual fantasy. You know, we're not, we're not kink dispensers. And when you're, you shouldn't look to your woman to fulfill your kink, develop the, the conversation and develop the interest and ask questions and be curious about her and find
out what you can find out there. Because you might be surprised, you know, if you approach it in that manner, you know, as she's, you know, you're interested in her having more pleasure or having more fun or having more interest in her life rather than fulfilling the male's kink fantasy. I think if people would approach it more like that, they'd likely have better results. Do you agree? Do you agree with me? Yeah, absolutely. And there's nothing wrong for the people that really like the
humiliation piece. It just didn't work for me and and our relationship. But you know, because it also makes it more about the man, right. But you know, that's what is working for both people. Then then great. But yeah, I, I think, I think presenting it in a way of, you know, like I want to expand our relationship and I'm, I really, I get off on seeing, you know, you enjoy yourself and you know, I know from like some of the things you've said, you get off on on wanting to be with
somebody else. So like, let's let's explore that together, right. I think the safety factor too, you know, it's a lot harder for women to have their man go off and be with somebody else. So, you know, making it that one sided non monogamy really worked for us. That was part of the deal to make this, you know, a success and all. It's like she's got that security. I'm not going anywhere.
But hey, if she wants to have a really good time with, you know, a younger guy or somebody with more stamina or whatever, it is great, right? Like she gets to have a lot of fun and I get to share in that fun too, right? It's, it's a pretty erotic thing watching you're, you know, the person you love more than anything, getting dressed up for
a date. And you know, you see your head off and you, you know, she's probably not coming home till 2:00 in the morning and you're counting down those minutes and you can't sleep and you're extremely aroused, right? And you know when when she gets home and she starts telling you all about it and you know it's and you see how routish she is, It's. Pretty sexy.
Well, I'm so, so happy you took a few minutes to talk to us because it just from the, the conversations that we've had online, it just sounded like you had a wonderful dynamic and you've, you've found a way to navigate that. I'll ask you one last question before we end. Have have you had any big problems or issues that have come up that you've had to navigate? And if so, how did you do it? You know, the only thing that's sort of come up over time, a couple of times actually.
I mean, she's she's an incredible catch and, you know, very, very beautiful woman. So it, you know, sometimes when she's been with a bull for six months or something and they do develop a connection, right? Like that person does start to fall in love. And you know, then sometimes we'll get to a point where they say, look, I just want you to myself, like, you know, like, let's stop all this and let's just have our relationship together. You know, that that does become a problem.
It's it's not a for sure thing that it's going to happen with somebody. But you know, you can see how how that's a possibility. So, you know, having ways to navigate around that is going to be important. Again, that goes back to the communication, right? And, and when we've had that happen, like we've usually ended things with with that bull or boyfriend. They're not the mean way or anything like that. But it, you know, it just starts to become a little bit too messy
with that. And it's, it's not that feelings aren't going to develop. I mean, it's hard for my wife and somebody to be having sex for six or more months and and not develop feelings, right? I mean, that's normal. I think it's. It's not just sex. Anybody that says it's just sex is probably lying about that. You know, there's something more to that, but it if it starts to become a bit too intense, then that's a problem. Yeah, Yeah, we, we've been through that too.
And I think what you've just described is the difference between having a connection and also having a commitment. You might have a connection with a bull, but my connection, my, my commitment is to my husband. He, he comes first. He's the one that's standing at the door at the end of the day. And it but it is tricky, you know, it's I think it would be unusual to spend a good amount of time with a bull and not develop feelings just as you stated.
But it sounds like it sounds like you got. Well, and, and Crystal, to be honest, both sides, right? Like we, we were, you know, we, we lived out on the East Coast and we were driving down, you know, just to point to this vacation spot. And, and, you know, so we're in the car for like 5 hours and it's, it's me, her boyfriend at the time and, and her, and you're just having conversations in the car and, you know, it's like, it felt almost like this.
It's hard to describe it like this relationship between the three of us, right? Like he's expressing what he likes. Actually, he really opened up and and said that, you know, when, when she would go over to his place back home, you know, he, he absolutely loved knowing that she's coming back to me. You know, like there was just something that boosted his energy about that way.
Like here he's fucking this guy's wife and, you know, really enjoying it and just knowing what comes after that. And you know, but having those conversations, the three of us it, it just made me realize there's, there's it's not like one and done like a one night standing just doesn't work. But you, you are building a relationship with another person, right? You've got your primary relationship, but you are building this other
relationship. And I, I don't know that enough of that is really discussed in the cut dynamic. It still does tend to be more focused on the man as opposed to what that woman needs and how that relationship develops. Yes, I you're so right about that. And I think that my friend Venus and I have talked about this many, many times. We can't understand why every woman wouldn't want a cuckold husband. But you know, we say that jokingly, but but we, the benefits for us are obvious to us.
And when asked what are the benefits to the man, one way I've described it is, well, if you have a bull that you have a relationship with and all three of you get along and you have that chemistry and you've got good communication. You know, the benefit to the husband is he gets to sort of feed on that new relationship, inner energy that that she
brings to the relationship. But also from the bull standpoint, he has all the pleasure and all the goodies from the woman and none of the responsibilities, 'cause that's the husband's. Yeah. Well, it's, it's a good, I don't know. I mean, it's a good point. I mean, tell you before we have to go. I mean, we, we had a, we had a, one of her boyfriends over, I guess a few months ago and, and we had a weekend to ourselves and, and we're just watching a
movie and hanging out. And you know, you're right. I mean, it's, it's nice for the woman because, you know, I, I got some nice dinner stuff. I'm making him dinner. We're kind of hanging out like he's getting her wine. And, you know, we kind of get part way through this, this movie, they're making out. She'll still come over and kiss me a little bit. And, you know, eventually, like he just says, you know, can we go to the bedroom? And I mean, she just, it's quite sexy, right?
Like your wife smiling at you as they head off to your bedroom and they're in there for a bit having sex. And, and, you know, she'd come out just to to check on me. And, you know, I can see that he's orgasmed in her, right? Because she climbs on me and she's rubbing a little bit on top of me. And you know, clearly I'm covered in him now, right? And. And. You know, this was kind of quite sexy and and she says, well, why don't you finish cleaning up?
And then, you know, she goes back in there, has some more sex, but we end up having sex the same night. And it's just, it's, it's really kinky and fun. And you, you have such an interesting mix of crazy emotions with the whole thing, you know, and, and we ended the night actually because she wanted us both in there and we're both sort of spooning her and you know, it's kind of sexy, right? It's, it's, yeah, it's a neat
experience. So I would really encourage, like your listeners, you know, talk to your spouse and, and, or your partner and, you know, take a risk with that, but be very authentic and honesty. Like these are the things I would like. What do you want? And, you know, have that very honest, real conversation. Yeah, absolutely. And also ask what might be in the way if if there's an interest and there's still hesitancy, dig deeper into that. Find out what's in the way.
Because together you'd be surprised what you might be able to discover about each other. And it might take you to an the exalted place that you just heard from Doctor Aaron here of where you can be in a, in a long term marriage that, you know, many of his peers who were married probably in the same length of time are kind of stale and kind of bored and kind of not having sex anymore. And he's like, woo Hoo.
Well, and this, you know, I've not ever had an affair and my wife hasn't ever had an unconsensual affair. You know, I can tell you this is a lot more fun than having an affair and it's a lot more fun than it just, you know, dying and becoming stale, right? So, you know, it's, it's, it's a way to make it pretty interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I just thank you so, so much for spending some time. I think, I think our listeners will get a great deal out of what you shared.
Cause what I got out of it was just a whole lot of joy and a whole lot of communication and a whole lot of love between these two people. So thank you so much, Doctor Aaron and we'll, we'll have to check in with you again here in a while and and maybe have another session.