¶ The Power of Norms and Attention
Right, and now we're on to episode two of this podcast. Finally. Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. We'll get through all four at some point. Yeah, still haven't watched three and four, but looking forward to them. Yeah, good, they are good.
Episode two is really about behaviour, I would say. Yes. And routines. Yeah, they made quite a big effort at this start to talk about how the goal is not to replicate what... you're seeing in terms of you know you can almost imagine it can't you're a school leader sort of saying ah brilliant well i've now seen this in the documentary we'll roll this out a whole school we'll all do this that's not the goal is it no and
I think it's partly not the goal because each sort of setting is going to be slightly different, but also mainly because it's massively complicated. Well, it's not massively complicated, but it's massively hard to do well. There's a million ways that just trying to launch something whole school can go wrong. Yeah. And there's like one way that it can go right. Yeah, yeah. And so it...
You need to really work up to that and think through what you're actually doing. That's right. Can I just say something about these three words that he uses quite early on? I just think I've been thinking about them a lot and they encapsulate. effective teaching so well he talks about um attention participation and thinking right yeah brilliant and actually in a lot of lessons you see in
What Catherine Berbertson would call an ordinary school. How much of that do you see? How much of that did I do in a lot of my lessons at secondary school? You know, attention, participation and thinking. Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. I mean, like Pep says, attention is the gatekeeper of learning. If you're not paying attention to something, there's no chance. All bets are off. Yeah, or Anna Boxer's thing about they're just not listening.
Fix it. They're just not listening. Yeah, that's step one. And then participation and thinking, that drives learning, doesn't it? That drives memory. Thinking hard links to memory. And I always find this interesting because, as I'm sure a lot of schools do, we run weekly assemblies for the whole of a year group. Where they come in in silence and they sit in rows. We're very lucky we have a theatre.
So it helps because they're just in a theatre. They're on tiered seating rather than sat on the floor like they are in some schools. And they're all listening, you know, pretty much. It's silent. And I had a really interesting coaching conversation with someone a couple of weeks ago where...
I said to her, my goal of saying this to her was I wanted to remind her that attention or close to 100% attention is possible in her lessons because it's probably not quite happening at the moment. And I said something like that. And she said, I know it is because I watched them in assembly and they're all sat there quietly listening. And I want to get that in my lessons. And she's right. It's quite impressive that this happens.
I think that points to something which, you know, the documentary covers a little bit, which is norms. Yes. Like, why do kids, why do 100 kids go into a hall and sit in silence for half an hour during an assembly? Well, I think because the norm is so strong. Like, you've got to be... You've got to be a pretty big dog to not do that when you're surrounded by 99 other people who are doing it. Yeah, yeah. You know, the weird thing about assemblies for me is that there's...
they can be sat in silence. So there can be the attention piece, but often there isn't necessarily the thinking piece as rarely the participation piece. So how much... kids actually remember of assemblies I think it's a pretty open question how effective they are and different assemblies can be done in different ways obviously you know there might be especially younger down there might be participating singing
you know, whatever it might be. But your point about the attention, that it is possible. I guess you could describe it, rather than attention, because you're right, you don't know what they're thinking, but uninterrupted direction. is possible with 200 kids. Yeah. And in my school, you may have an assembly where the tutors have had to go and do something. So you have 200 kids and three staff.
Yeah. And we could do half an hour uninterrupted. It's the power of the norm. Or with one little pause for, excuse me, I don't want you two to do. Sorry, sir. And that's it. Yeah. Same thing with exams. Yep. Yep. If someone dreamed this up now. We'll put 200 kids in the hall and we'll get them all to do it at the same time. You won't. We can't get 25 students in the classroom. But it happens across the whole country.
What's that thing of like, you know, there's a famous experiment where I think it's a bunch of actors who are in on the experiment get into a lift with one sort of unsuspecting person. Yeah. And they all do something that's the same. So, like, they all face one way. Oh, yeah. It might be, like, the back of the lift instead of facing the front. I've used that with inset. And that the person will always conform. Yeah. So, you know, once you have this kind of number of...
kids like 200, it's very hard not to conform. It's just in our DNA. Yeah, you're quite right. What I was watching last of the day where the teacher is doing a reasonably good job at... you know again you can't tell how much they're thinking but uninterrupted direction there's not there's no he's teaching the class and there's no interruptions and i was watching it actually because i'd filmed the lesson but
it's a year eight class and one of the most difficult year eight pupils arrives late to lesson and it's one of those ones where The door opens and someone pushes her in because she's been wandering or she's been just brought into school or having to talk to the police. And you think, oh, my goodness. And I've seen this person cause mayhem in lessons, proper mayhem.
But it doesn't happen because... she walks into a lift where everyone's facing east so she just faces east yeah and there's something in that isn't it yeah it's huge and it's why like it goes back to the thing you know the way i used to start my lessons and and you used to and presumably still do like as soon as you the kids as soon as the first kid arrives they're in they're getting on with the work and they're heads down and there's a starter on the board and what that what that does is that
the people who are late to arrive, which is typically where you're going to find the naughty ones, arrive to a room that's silent and working. And it's very hard not to just come in and join in.
¶ Routines in Early Years and Beyond
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, episode two, I mean, it opens really with routines. A teacher called Harpreet teaching year two, I believe it is. Do you remember that bit? She's doing a lot of, like, do it again. routines where she's really oh yes sorry they're very young and she's just training them into
The way she's going to secure their attention. Yeah, I do remember that. And anecdotally, my own daughter is year three and I brought her in to watch some of it and it just blew her mind. Oh, really? At the... the purposefulness of the class. She can't put it like that. But it's just like, it was like us watching people eating their dinner, sitting on the floor eating with their hands. We understand that happens. It's not quite how we do it.
Do you know what I mean? Right, right. And that's, bear in mind, they're all in rows, they're all listening. Yeah, just nothing like what she experiences. Yeah, yeah. That's a worry, really, isn't it? Like, I've been in a lot of primary schools recently. I've been filming a lot, especially early years. So all the way down reception, nursery, key stage one, year one and year two.
And these schools are generally securing attention pretty well, like seeing that video. But they also have, it's a really important part of their, you know, day and their curriculum is... And they do have different names for it, but basically independent play where there's stations and the kids can go and they can, you know, jump from tire around from tire to tire or push something around or play with a like make believe.
kitchen set or move water around or paint a picture or write a letter or you know there's different things they can do oh yeah and that's so that that's quite unstructured although below the surface there's huge structure to that because The stations are very cleverly designed so that there's both large objects and small objects.
you need to use different motor skills to move around and manipulate and so on. And there are adults supporting and observing play. And it's an important part of that kind of early year stuff is to observe play. So I wouldn't want to... I say all that because I wouldn't want people to have the impression that what Reach Academy, Felton, which is where that was filmed, are doing is just sat in rows.
everyone at the front yeah they're definitely not they're understanding i think what school is or should be which is we teach you to sit and listen and think and we also encourage you to play and explore and mess about right they are both integral parts and i think that now i i love watching the kids just being kids just yeah yeah messing about
But also, like, it's so important that you could do the opposite. Yeah, and I think what, you know, Reach does so well and the other schools I've been in is that they... They understand that both parts are needed and they do both parts really well. So, for example, I watched a lunchtime and in the lunchtime, you know, the kids are learning how to.
how to use their knife and fork. They're learning how to serve up the food and clear up the plates. They're learning how to sit. There's a period where they sit and eat in silence. It's a quite short period, but we have a bit where you sit silently and you eat. And then we have a bit where...
you can talk about something that's prompted by the teacher. And they're learning those skills of like all of these miniature skills all along the way. They're not just left to kind of sit and have their lunch. and then we'll reconvene for the next lesson. Yeah, and I wouldn't want to be... I think that most primaries, teachers listening to that would be sort of rolling their eyes and saying...
Of course. Yeah, I hope so. Because I think probably in my children's school, their year R and year three, they're pretty good on that, from what I hear. It's hard to pick up exactly what's happening, but this idea of sort of learning through play and learning how we queue up. I'll give you a classic example. I used it with Insate at the end of the day. I took my son to a birthday party the other day. And...
No teachers were there, obviously, because it's parents. And we said, right, come on, everyone. All the parents said this at the same time. Out of the soft play, because you're about to go into the birthday room, you know what I mean, where you have your cake and all that. And these kids, there's about 20 of them, all lined up. Without anyone saying anything, they all went, washed their hands one by one, waited in line, and the parents were like, what on earth? They don't do this at home.
Mayhem. But it's because they've got that routine at school. The teachers have decided that's the best way of moving these kids from the playground to the dining hall is by having this routine. And they did it at a place they've never been to before. Yeah. Great. Well, I mean, and that's the power of routines, right? They become automated. Yeah. And, you know, Pep makes his point in that episode that that gives the teacher so much more space. Yes. To deal with.
teaching to be to individualize to people's needs all of those things well direct quote from the documentary can't remember who said this but got it down as a quote slick routines allow students to feel safe and the teaching can um come on the back of it yeah do you know who who said that was it peps hugh
Yeah, well, that's true. 15 years ago, he was saying that. Yeah, probably 30 years ago. Yeah, probably 30 years ago. Yeah, that's quite right. I don't know who said it in the documentary, but yeah, I mean, that's one of the things like Hugh absolutely drilled into me anyway. It's routines, routines, routines, routines. And when it's clear and simple and calm, the kids will feel safe and they'll be able to learn. Yeah. And it's good to see all of that stuff.
¶ Teaching Behavior & System Implementation
you know being articulated more widely oh absolutely that's that's what it's all about isn't it that's what we want yeah one of the other things that's very very i think you know important about this episode is And Pratesh made this point really when he came on our podcast, which is that these schools aren't, they aren't leaving this to each teacher to decide or up to the kids who've got kind of...
the right opportunities at home to follow the rules, they are very clear about how they teach behaviour and they teach routines and they teach what they want to see, the respect and the gratitude. Yeah, and that's a good point, isn't it? Because... I deliberately, because I wanted to see what it was like, did four years in an expensive private school. And this stuff just happened. I had to do a duty in the Grand Hall.
I didn't have to do anything. They just came in with their trays. They sat down. They have a nice bit of chat. They clear up. There'd be the odd little bit of rice left on the table. You'd think, come on, boys, you could have just swept out into your trays. But...
nothing mark you know it was just it took care of itself because they've been taught that at home yeah whereas these these schools these this isn't the situation in these schools and they aren't leaving at chance and it's it's it's you know we come back to this time and time again but it's pretty simple model of how you do that you you know they they explain why it's important to the kids they model it they practice it and then they reinforce that with
you know, praise and sanctions and feedback. And that's learning, right? That's your blueprint for learning anything. There will, and I know we've talked about this before, but there will be a lot of people, though, sat watching that, just... Yeah, but how do I get to that in my school? And that's the, you know...
You can read the All Blacks book about why the All Blacks are so great at rugby and their culture and no dickheads. You have the shirt on your back for a few years and you hand it back. It's lovely, lovely, lovely. How do I get that in my rugby club down the road? you know, Balbath, 15 fat blokes, some of which, you know, the kind of thing. Yeah. How? Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great question, but, but it's, it's a big question. And then.
And, you know, the answer is when you start unpicking it bit by bit and you start by being absolutely clear about what it is you want. I mean, because that's the first problem, right? You can look at this and you can either say, oh, I don't like that. It looks like... you know some sort of prison system and that's one response or you can look at it and say right I want that but
What is it that you actually want? Like, can you nail that down? Can you pin it down? And then the second thing is, how do you codify that? How do you, how are you going to get that?
in principle could you like on your own could you do this with one class yeah and and what you know you're asking questions here what are the answers to this stuff right so yeah so So, I mean, the first thing is being clear, okay, what I want in my school is that, you know, 100% attention, kids pay attention to the teacher when the teacher speaks, they're working hard, there's no opt-out, all of that stuff.
And then question number two was, you know, what does it look like? How do you codify that? Well, both of those schools have their own playbooks where they've really set out, okay, these are their... core routines that we're going to use in this school and there's not a lot of them like i said this before but at arc zone you've really got kind of core response heads down hands up
everybody reads, you know, kind of reading routine, slant, and maybe like one or two others. Maybe there's like six core routines. And at Reach, you know, it's similar. We've got a couple of different calls for attention. You know, we've got a green pens type routine, call response routine. There's a finite number of routines that then can be deployed across the school. And then it's training teachers so they're consistently applying them and training students so they know what to do.
That's hard. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. But I don't... It begins there. It begins with a real clear understanding of what it is you're going to ask your teachers to do. Because in my experience, schools will... You know, a headteacher might say, all right, I want that. And talk about SLT, right, we want that. We're going to launch this next week. Yeah. What are you launching exactly? Yeah.
yeah my experience would be a bit of that and also it would be and then we're going to talk about something else that we want yeah and it would be something else different the week after that do you want to get on to the lessons
¶ Classroom Routines and Lesson Starts
Yeah, yeah, I'd love to talk about the lessons. Again, I was in all of those. You were? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which was a pleasure. Right, we've got the science lesson first. Yeah. Or, it's on my list anyway, is it? Yeah, that's Harpreet, yeah. Pritesh, I was thinking. Oh, sorry, okay, yeah, there's two clips before that. But yeah, Pritesh is a science lesson, yeah. I mean, you came out from there quite early on, didn't you? Just raving about the school and what you'd seen.
and it wasn't that visit was it it was another visit you'd be you would you first I have been a bunch of times I think that was I think it was that visit I think that was my first okay okay my first time there yeah and I've used some clips around that with CPD. I'll tell you one thing I picked up on. And this isn't a... This isn't a what Peps talks about being an emotional response, but it's something that I noticed. I found it interesting. The start of the lesson. I mean, you know what.
the model I use in my lessons would be for a startup lesson. I just wondered... Why can't these comedians get on with it? Did you know I was going to say that? I did, yeah, because I had the same thought. I mean, I would say... Can we say what they do? Are you able to say what they do? Yeah, yeah. Well, they come in... I mean, the first thing to say... actually before I say what they do that's not always what they do because sometimes the teachers
in arc zone generally speaking the teachers move rooms and the kids stay in the same place but in that in obviously at the start of the day and lunch and so on they have to move rooms and they have to come into classroom and in that lesson they start by coming in and then they
they stand behind their chairs. When it, when, you know, Pratesh says so, they sit down. But he hasn't covered, yeah, yeah. And then they, someone hands, they hand the books out, they hand the booklets out. Or they're sort of on the side of... Edge of the end of the desk, aren't they? And they get kind of handed down. Yeah, handed down. Yeah. And then it's like, go to a particular page and then start. And...
In amongst that, there's also Pradesh does a little bit of selling the new topic and, you know, thanking the person who wrote the booklet and sort of gratitude stuff. But it's an objective... You know, it's a measurable objective fact that my lessons started a lot quicker than that, than any lesson I saw at Arc Zone. Yeah. Because the kids had the books with them.
And the routine was and the starter was on board and the routine was in go. And so it was humming within the time that, you know, they're still handing books out. But in my school. I was the exception rather than the rule. Whereas at Arxone, everyone's like that. It's consistently reasonably prompt and very ordered and fairly purposeful. Whereas...
And that's the difference. Why is that the difference? Because could we not just have that across the whole school? They all just get on with it. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But I'm not sure, you know. Okay, so it would take a couple of different things. Like one, the kids have their books with them.
where where and those and the booklets you know that's a slightly different thing if they're working through booklets i mean maybe they could have it whole school it's harder probably harder to codify and it's harder to sort of control, isn't it? Because it's not come in, stand behind your chairs, slant, sit down, slant, get your stuff out, slant. It's not that kind of sequence of...
¶ Motivation Pyramid and Merit Systems
instructions yeah yeah it much more yeah i mean it's a more subtle routine i would say than that um could you want merits yeah yeah i think that'd be I mean, this is phenomenal, isn't it? He's given out, he talks about 40, 50 merits per lesson. Yeah. This is one area that I have fallen down in.
in all the schools i've worked in that has got some kind of merits approach or house points most schools do don't they yeah and it's always been at some point in my years at a school someone has done some data crunching as pointed out There's a crack along this Excel sheet. Four handed out this year. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's Femi. Like, I'm poor at this. But he's doing it very effectively, isn't he?
Yeah, it's really slickly done, and it's well worth watching to see him doing that. Isla does the same thing as well, although it's even more subtle in some ways. But a student is basically keeping track. Yeah. So he doesn't have to worry about keeping track. And I think if you're going to do merits, that's a great way to do it because...
I'm not a fan of like writing names up on the board or stopping to keep track of like who you've given merits to. So I think it is a really nice way of doing it. Yeah, no, it is. It is. The key for me.
though, in all of that, is actually the pyramid. Oh, right, I've got that here. The pyramid's brilliant. So, because I think this is like, I actually think the end result of what you do, and really what I do is much... much the same maybe not quite as extreme um is the same as the end result that pratesh is getting which is the top of the pyramid it's who i am It's who I am. Brilliant. And so it's moving from extrinsic motivation to intrinsic. Yeah.
The rewards and sanctions is the extrinsic, which at the bottom of the pyramid is to avoid demerits. And the next one up is for praise and merits. But then, and then the next, the middle level is to impress other people. And then the second to top one is for better outcomes, for a better future, I think they put it as. And the top one is just who I am. Yeah, it's brilliant. And I think that's what we're all trying to do. But I've never seen it articulated as clearly as that.
No, I haven't either. And I think it's important that you point out that an effective system gets people to that. top of that pyramid it's huge but because i i was interested in one thing he said because he talked about how he said something like um um he previously He'd only really given praise when pupils had exceeded his expectations. So that is an absolutely beautifully balanced equation. And actually, we haven't even done one that difficult yet, but you've done it.
merit house point and then he moved to giving it for really really small things but then he said yeah because when i had it as that they i only give it when they exceed the behavior and their and their sort of conduct deteriorated but I don't really experience that or see that so I did find it interesting to say that and him to say that and
for that to be taken as what happens if you don't give loads of praise and loads of merits or house points, whatever you want to call it. Because it doesn't always reiterate, does it? No, no. I really modelled my praise on... what I learned from Simon King. Yeah, I was going to bring him into it. Absolute loads of it. Although it's not merit-based, I'm not recording merits on a system, is actually wandering around.
the room, giving loads of praise, loads of little, like, tapping on the desk, good, nice, brilliant, all of that stuff, just constantly, and I think, so to say, like, Yes, it's true. I gave very few merits or house points, but I would say there was more praise going on in my lessons than almost anywhere else in the school. That's right.
Because if a lethal mutation came out of this, which was a school saying, I want you to now be giving at least 40 house points per lesson, I can imagine teachers are sat there, but to who? And for what? Yeah. Because in my lessons there... swinging on their chairs they're messing about they're not so you've brought in this and he and he's not saying that i'm not saying but it's a lethal mutation that someone could take for it isn't it that we just give loads of praise
you could argue that some of these schools that are like no no fault schools or no no disciplined schools or we can't give it yeah that's where it's come from
¶ Fostering Intrinsic Motivation
There's a lethal mutation. The road to hell is based on good intentions, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's a good one. The thing that... the thing that you said a minute ago, you want to come back to it, like that we're all, we should be aiming for the top of the pyramid. Yeah. That's, that's so important because, you know, one of the things, and we've mentioned this before, but one of the things that you see often, or I've seen often is.
that it's the naughtiest kid in the year who has the most merits. And they're still the naughtiest kid in the year. So that's not working. No. And it's because, like, we can't just stay in that extrinsic motivation place. We have to move. We're not doing any good at all if we're not moving up the pyramid towards it's who I am. Because in five years' time or less, they're going to leave this school and be out in a...
The real world. So there, there's no merits and there's no rewards. We have to have hit that. I do the right thing because it's who I am before they leave. Yeah. So, and I think, you know, that's the lethal mutation doesn't. doesn't it part of the problem is doesn't understand that but the praise is so important we've been doing a lot of work at my school on the starts of lessons and i've seen and helped quite a few teachers recently get to a point in their lessons where
they're starting smoothly, efficiently, quite well. And the number one thing I see as I watch a video or if I'm in there is thinking, oh, you've got to tell the class that this is what you want. You've got it now. and you haven't said anything you've just stood there yeah yeah just and then moved on to the next thing this is the exact point where you say i'll tell you what you and i can i just tell you everyone now
This is how we come into a lesson. Really, really pleased. Keep going. And that is so important. But you've got to know when to do that. I used to love it as a head of department when I'd go into a lesson in my department and it'd be like that. And say it was year nine or year eight class. I'd say, so is this year 11?
uh no it's you nine wow it's just behaving like year 11s yeah brilliant very good to see guys yeah and then off i go again you know it's just it's so important to reinforce that yeah you're quite right There's also one other thing I wanted to mention from that, because there's a bit, you know, and Josh picks up on this in his interview with Pratesh in the documentary, but there's the bit where Pratesh asks, who hasn't got a merit yet?
to the girl who's keeping score. And she says, I can't remember who she says, Ahmed, I think. And he says, right, Ahmed, your turn to shine, take it away. And what I thought that did, I hadn't really passed it. this way previously until i watched it again recently was it's signaling to the class that i my desire for you to succeed yeah and
I think that's something that like good teachers do. And I think that's something that you can do in so many different ways, but you have to, we're going to do a pod actually on respecting the learners, aren't we? But I think it comes into that like signaling. I'm going to really signal to you that this matters. They care about what we care about, to use one of Hugh's lines. And I'm going to signal that I care about your success. Important, especially as the...
The most difficult to teach and motivate children probably haven't had a lot of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's important. Very important. Right. Warm Strict comes up later on. Yeah. So this is Nina really. is the section of the documentary on trust yeah yeah yeah huge love how she talks about she she clearly cares about those kids doesn't she she does in that school and she but she talks about how
The strict is the switch, she calls it. Being able to go there if I need to go there. And everyone in this room knows that I can go there, but I don't need to with you guys because you're brilliant. That's so important. I love that.
Yeah, yeah. What are your thoughts there? Well, I, you know, I think Warm Strict is a... is a great phrase and I think most people do know what that means and understand it and probably just struggle sometimes that most commonly I think people struggle more on the strict. side than on the warmth side but I have seen it the other way around where teachers struggle with the warmth but not so much with the strict
It's a great equation. It's a balanced equation. Well, also, strict isn't strict if you just live there all the time. And that's what I've... One teacher I've worked with over the years on this a little bit is that if you constantly live in a heightened so-called strict world where you're barking at kids and telling them what they're doing is wrong and how come...
That isn't really strict anymore. It's just what happens in here for an hour. But when she talks about the switch... Yeah, it's just unpleasant. Yeah, yeah. That's so important that I can switch to that if I have to.
and then come back down and you need it i need it with my own kids at home like we are brilliant here we're having a lovely time but i don't know why you have just pulled on the curtain and you're potentially going to pull that bar off that wall and i don't want to see you do that again sorry
¶ Teacher Training and School-Wide Implementation
That's kind of awesome. That's, that's important that they know that there is that and they want it. They do want it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Clear boundaries. Okay. And you might think, oh, he's asking the same question again. But later on, she talks about this is replicated in every department in the school. And, you know, there will be school leaders watching that just thinking.
yeah but I can't even and maybe some of this is because of how their schools are but I can't even recruit people who could even come in and do the beginnings how do i get it going when i haven't got the people who are it's easy not easy but i can understand that a teacher coming in a teacher who's maybe limited skill
but they're coming into a situation where a lot of this is set up and i can slot them in teach them our routines teach them how to call for attention whatever it is what about when you're trying to get that going and you haven't got the skill i'm looking at your fire you know I haven't got the wood to get this going. And I need it. And then I can put wood on it once it's going. Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, well, you're probably just going to say it's the same answer again. Well, it was the same question. Let's assume you're the head teacher and you're... you're crystal clear on what you want and what that looks like. Right. Which in my experience is rarely the case, but let's assume you are. Absolutely crystal clear on what you want outcomes to be and what routines you want to use to get there. Right. Then number two is you have to teach teachers. You have to train them.
again let's just go through the the key ingredients of effective teaching you have to explain you have to model you have to practice and you have to give feedback or maintain it so and that's you know that's what you see in the school like In Arxone, they do so well. Year seven, I think she said they have two to three days of just training. And the way that works is the senior leaders run lessons.
And the new teachers observe and they watch. So they see the kids learning the routines. I've said this before, I know, but they see the kids learning the routines. But... they also see the routines being taught themselves, so they learn the routines themselves. And in my experience, it's a very rare school where leaders understand that... we're going to have to teach teachers to do this. Yeah, I guess I'm keen just to see it being done in a school that's a long way off that.
a full school that's a long way off that with a complete cross-section of society teachers you've got Johnny, who's a brilliant PE teacher. The kids worship him, love him. Jackie, who's been in teaching history for 42 years and just, you know, militant. Everyone knows exactly how. But then you've got... the the three new teachers in science they were all a bit we're all a bit on the fence whether they're even going to stay and one's a long-term supply and that's
That's, that's, that's the normal school now, isn't it? That's the normal state of like your old school. Yeah. And then you, so then it comes down to, okay, so what's the mechanism by which we're going to do this teaching? So, so now you're crystal clear on what you want. You're crystal clear on what routines look like to get there. You understand that you have to teach and that there's components to teaching, which include modeling and practicing as well as the direct instruction. And then...
And then there's the mechanism, how am I going to actually do that? Now, you've got a bunch of options as to do that. So Barry Smith sat here and said... I went into Great Yarmouth and I took the first week with, you know, kids coming in one year group at a time. And I, but on the internet day, I...
I showed the staff what I was going to do. I did it to them. I made them read from a booklet, line by line. I did the questioning. I then went into lessons. I borrowed the kids for a minute. I showed them exactly what... Okay, that... that's that's that's one model that's that's going to be tough to replicate because most people are not barry smith um but then there's also like the coaching model like so
The PD model, let's say, so you might have, you understand that you're going to focus on one thing, choose the routine. You might have some... group PD, where you go through the why and how, and then you might have that trickle down to a coaching level where the focus is determined already. But to do that, you have to have...
all of that implemented in your schools. You have to have that stuff set up. So it's a huge undertaking to get to that space. It's probably two years of work if you're just an ordinary school. You know, I'm just running insets on a Tuesday afternoon. We haven't seen this, have we? We haven't lived this. That's... Nothing of what you're saying...
¶ Effective Learning Cycles and Subject Differences
i disagree with yeah it's just i haven't it's a bit like when the first the first read about when the first heart transplant was done people were saying you just do this and then you do this and we think this is with it and if people are like
yeah, I'm just not sure you could put another person's heart into it. And when it was done, the people were like, that was absolutely fantastic. So that's probably... why i'm asking this question because i want to live this out well let me be doing it yeah and and i haven't done it lived it but i've i have had the privilege of going into a lot of schools in the last year and a half um some of which are
are doing it and have been able to do that. So it's possible. Yes, I think it is. And you went up to Q3 Academy, Langley, and they're moving in that direction.
if not already, you know, some way down the line. And surprise, surprise, I ask the same questions I'm asking you. Yeah. Especially around their silent and play phase, which I think is our next... destination in my school right right um such an important part like you can't learn without practice no yeah no and no one no teacher would disagree with that but you so you rarely see a great deal of it in lessons yeah yeah
Is there anything else to say on this? Because I'm conscious of time. Oh, well, only what we just talked about, actually, which I'm sure is coming in episodes three and four. And I wrote down at the bottom of my notes. I'm sure it's coming, but...
what I haven't seen yet, it's just much work. Yeah. And I'm looking forward to seeing it. Yeah. And I guess, do you know what I mean by that? Yeah, I do. What do you mean? Just kids working? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that did happen. Um, I guess this, this, There's three things to say about that. One, I can verify that that does go on. Yeah. That kids do work and they work independently and they work silently. And that happened in every lesson of the maybe like 10 or dozen.
probably dozen lessons that I've seen, been in at Arxone and same at Reach Academy. Number two is that it's not all that... interesting to show in a documentary and a silent class of kids working yeah for an extended period of time so although you see snapshots of it like proportionally the amount you'll see in the documentary is not proportional to the amount that's actually going on no because you don't want you know
you don't want to show 10 minutes of exposition and a starter being done and then 10 minutes of silent working because there's actually just not that much to to look at it's just once you've seen 30 seconds of it that's what it looks like And then number three is just to say that the house style at Arc Zone is this kind of these cycles within cycles of teaching. So a small cycle of teaching looks like...
We read together. It might just be a sentence or two, or it might be a whole paragraph from the booklet. That's the direct instruction. There's a little bit of exposition from the teacher. Then we go into some... paired talk you know i've talked about that as being like paired rehearsal yeah but we go into some paired talk and questioning cycles and there might be two or three or four of those and then we go on to the next
And there might be a small written quiz at that point, but then we go on, we sort of repeat that process. We go on to the next chunk of text, the next bit of direct instruction, exposition. paired talk, questioning, paired talk, questioning, paired talk, questioning, with maybe some more exposition if there's a misconception being exposed, etc. And those cycles will repeat.
three four five times and then usually it's like okay now there's some independent work yeah it's going to go silent and you're going to write more extended piece um and i would say that that
That piece of the lesson is shorter than typically, historically it was for me, or I know that it is in your lessons. But it makes sense to me that they do these mini cycles to kind of... lock in small chunks of learning and then bring it together to kind of lock in a more concrete, sorry, a more connected piece of understanding at the end of the lesson.
so far away from like what simon does though isn't it which is what interests me because i think it's i do think it's effective but i also know what he's doing and know that to be extremely effective as well and that that that interests me Yeah, and I also think to a large degree, and I've thought about this a lot, like that is subject specific. So I really think like what we do in maths, what Simon does in maths.
You know, which basically to summarize it, you know, there's a starter. The starter is a recap of previous knowledge, but it probably links to today. Yes. Then we go slickly into the new instruction, the direct instruction and some questioning. checking for understanding, getting everyone to a place where they can get their heads down. And then the lion's share of the lesson is people working and them supporting. But what the way that...
The reason that's so successful is because the structure of the maths questions that they're working through, it's the variation and the incremental increase in sort of... challenge and complexity in those questions that means They're not just repeating the same thing now for the next 40 minutes. Those equations look a bit different each time. It's done well. They're getting different. They're having to think each time. They can never go on to autopilot.
But they've got the basic concept and now the teacher is circulating and supporting them with that. I don't think that's so easy to do in any other subject. And I think that the Arxone model really lends itself to... basically every other subject where you want to chunk things down into these working memory size bits of information which there's nothing you can do with that that lasts an hour.
But there's something you can do with that the last 10 minutes, and then you can put three or four of them together, and then there's something you can do the last 20 minutes. Yeah. I don't know. Is it just because it's a different subject? I'm not sure. I think it is, because I think it's very hard to create that variation and that sort of very gradual increase in complexity in your questions. I mean, the other thing that's unique to maths is like...
You know, think about questioning and you might say... He'd teach science like that, though. He would. He'd have you working on this, you're working on this, you boys over there, you're on this, stop that, you're now on this. That's what he's great at, isn't it? Yeah, he's brilliant at that.
I think you could teach science like that, but the reason I think you could teach science like that is because I think you could produce a bank of questions that follow those principles that kids could work through.
Although that's not common in science, right? Most science textbooks traditionally, we talk about... talked to rob about this didn't we rob newman yeah most science textbooks traditionally traditionally might have three or four questions at the end of the chapter yeah yeah it's it's it's no good so you know the critical difference is i remember someone
Someone saying, like, back in our first school, actually, my first school, the first one we worked together in, sort of saying, like, I want you to think about how many questions kids answer in a typical lesson. And, you know, most people were thinking about, well, you know, I suppose I ask a question to check for understanding and I might ask three or four or five different.
kids and i do that three or four five times in the lesson so perhaps on average each kid answers one question in the lesson and my take on it was like questioning drives thinking I couldn't have articulated like this at the time, but questioning drives thought. You have to think to answer the question, and therefore it's valuable. What do we do in maths? Well, we might do the same kind of ratio of questioning to sort of to check for understanding during the explanation phase.
But then kids are answering 10, 15, 20 questions on their own. So every kid in my lesson is answering 15 questions. And I think that's an important distinction because in English... You're never going to answer 15 questions in a lesson if it's structured like our maths lesson. You're typically going to answer one. You know, how does the writer convey that man can...
have both good and evil at the same time? How does Stevenson do this? Well, you're going to work up to answering that question. That's your kind of exposition. And then kids are going to answer it. So unless you... break that lesson into these many cycles, you are naturally limited in kind of how you can extend that, I would say. You're completely sold on this being the way. I'm still not.
¶ The Power of School DNA
i still i still i still see it like this right i see it as like my kids are like young so i don't really know how to create top quality young adults yet right and i meet two parents one says
Yeah, we from a very young age have to just do loads around the house because we think it's really important to get them to independence. They have to do this and they dishwash her and they clean their own rooms. And that's why now they're 20. They are as they are off at university, doing great things, independent people, sensible. And then you meet another person who just says, oh, no. No, no, no. They're children. But they've got the same outcome. And I'm just sat there thinking.
Yeah, I don't really know which one's best. Yeah, I would clarify that. I wouldn't say I'm completely sold on this being the way. I would say... I'm sold on this being a way because I've seen it. I've seen it be effective. Yeah. And like, I've watched, I've watched history lessons. I've watched science lessons, watched English lessons. where kids knew way more than they did in any other school I've been in. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's definitely, there's no question that it works. Now...
As to being, so it's a way as to being the way. No, I think as long as the principles of learning are in play, you know, secure attention, drive, optimize communication. give and gather feedback and ensure consolidation. As long as those principles are there, there are probably a bunch of different ways to do this. Barry Smith would be very... And is very sceptical of that as a way of working. Yeah, he is. But you have to...
you have to look at the result of what kids can actually do. And this is always the point I come back to. Yes. It's the way I started when I came back from arc zones. Like the, the proof in the pudding for me was. what the kids actually knew, and they really knew stuff. And when I've been into science lessons in the past, without exception, the kids...
They don't know stuff. We don't need to disagree on that. I guess the only thing I'm convinced about is because I've been there and I've been to Michaela is the requirement for there being a proper school dna of this is how we do things even if you're still listening to it thinking i'm not completely sure about it's absolutely clear that they know
and the guy next to him know who teaches a different subject and the guy next to him knows and all the kids know and the power of that meaning that if you've got that you're definitely going to get kids knowing a great deal more than they get knowing another school
where it's a complete mix. And you've got, I know how I do it, and it's worked for a long time. I know how I think I do it, but it actually doesn't work at all when anyone's ever told me. I have no idea how it works. I wish somebody would tell me. That's what you've got elsewhere, isn't it? Yeah. And I think...
That's the most powerful thing I take from it, is that people coming up to you in the yard on duty just saying how you find the school. And you'll say, yeah, it's great. And then basically saying the exact same thing to you that someone else said. about how they teach. That's what I like to capture. Not actually the pedagogy. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the same way that we had stuff, didn't we? Yeah, that's huge. Because we did that, didn't we? Think about what used to happen. Yeah, yeah. When Jimmy Smith, teacher from school down the road, wrote in to say...
can I come into your school to see how maths is taught? We'd be rubbing our little hands together. Right, who's going to go on in first? I had him in my lesson for 20 minutes. Boys, that'd be Hugh, wouldn't it? I told him, I told him. And then straight into you. And we'd all be saying, the same thing really wouldn't we yeah yeah so you think about this is think about this is jimmy
Kids need to work, don't they? Kids need to practice. Look at this class. Practicing, aren't they? People who fill up most textbooks get the best results. Then they go to me. Oh, at the start, isn't it? So when they come to my lesson, straight on. See how they're straight on? Straight on. And I think if we went back in time and watched some of those lessons we wouldn't necessarily always be thinking they were amazing but there was a dna wasn't there yeah
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And by the way, just to clarify for people, by DNA, you mean like DNA, RNA, Watson and Crick type DNA. You don't mean do now activity? Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean a set sort of... genetic yeah underlying the thumbprint of how things are done in this department yeah that's what that's that's what i'd like to get
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there you go. And you can think about like, why was it like that in our first school? And why do people want to come in and find out why the maths results were 20% higher than anything else? Really, I say it's largely because Hugh told everyone to do it that way. Yeah. And then what did we do when a young guy came in? We very quickly got him to understand the way, didn't we? Well, and the other powerful thing, and I think Pratesh or someone makes this point.
I actually think it's Matt Neuberger in one of the later episodes. So he's the head at Arc Zone. A tour guy. Yeah. He makes the point that, look, when we go, when we observe each other and we do a lot of drop-ins observing each other. we're seeing people teach in the same style so we're not having to translate from something that's outside of our kind of comfort zone outside of what we know and decide what
whether they're elements I want to take from that, we can see them doing the same routines we're doing and we can see why they've done it more effectively or less effectively. And I think that was true for us in that department. I could come into your lesson.
Or Simon's lesson or Hugh's lesson. And it was essentially the same as my lesson, but being run perhaps a bit better. And so I didn't need to sort of think... ah fundamentally I have to change and I have to I need to change the desks around and try this matching activity it was none of that crap it was just trying to work out which is best yeah yeah it was just oh okay I see I see what he's done there in order to um
you know to check they they can do this before they go on to the questions or whatever it might be that's that's been quite helpful chat actually in terms of my own journey and what i'm working on Yeah, it's good. It's good. Cool. Yeah. Enjoy it. Looking forward to episode three. Me too.