Working from Anywhere, Goals, Impact and Freelancing with Eva Zahrawi Ruiz

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio, and if you're interested in working from anywhere, finding fulfillment and joy in what you do on a day today and getting stuff done with patience and empathy, this episode is for you. Joining me today is Ava Sahravi Ruiz. She's had many titles, mentor, speaker, marketing, and brand director. But what I truly love about her is her perspective on time and the patience in which she operates to get stuff done.

And she loves what she's doing. She even has a podcast, which I'll put in the description below. Check her out. And with that being said, enjoy the episode beyond. Coding. So you're actually you're planning for 2025, but what is

that planning then because you're you know when kind of the period is you want to go, are you looking at? For for Japan, Yeah, yes. Also 2024 already. Like, OK, yeah, I want to go every year. Yeah, every year. But in 2025 there is this 3 and Allah this art. A contemporary art fest that only happens once every three years.

So that one is for sure happening, but that we are going to that area in Japan. But Japan for me, for as long as I can in my life, it will be every year a yearly thing. Yes. Incredible. Yes. Yes, I said. I want to be in contact with this culture. And with this way of living and and these people and nature and I don't know, I don't know what this country has, but I want to be in contact with this every year for two to three weeks. Have you thought about like picking your stuff off and

living there as well for like a? Longer period, I think, Oh well, if it was work related like I could see myself if I would have a project of like going there for six months to a year, yeah. I would sign up. Sounds like the dream. Immediately. But to live there, I think, and also I'm not so sure like when it then comes to work environment, I think it's it's a pretty difficult culture. It's tough from what I've seen, yeah. To work with, to work for. Also, as a woman, I I'm not sure

if I would. Want to comply too much to the rules in that regard and they're quite strict and I do know people working with Japanese people, not everybody, but it's not easy. So I think the best is as visitor I can imagine, Yeah, I was thinking back actually.

I don't think I talked about this when I joined CV, The team I was working with, we had a few teams, like two or three, and there was one team that was working and building a product that was gonna go live in one of the Japanese regions. Yeah, specifically. And they also got the experience because they wanted to meet the people there. So they flew over there and I wasn't in the team. I was. So I was so jealous. Yeah. And then I was like, I wanna be

in this team. And then when I moved to that team, we pivoted from Japan to Russia. So. That's quite we also, we also traveled to Russia, but then I I couldn't go because I already had something booked. So basically, I missed out on the trip to Japan and I also missed out on the trip to Russia. I would definitely, yeah.

Plan it in in in in whichever way to to go there. I mean or I don't know or maybe it is for me really, it's really touching. They say everybody has like a spirit place or like spirit country. Yeah, I think that that that's for me. I don't know why once once I land there. It's very special. I feel very at home, very relaxed, very happy. So yeah, and every time it's just the contrast is so big with us that it's the only place that I get surprised in a very positive way.

But something that I didn't expect or didn't know about, or like two to three times a day, that doesn't happen anywhere. And even before your first trip, did you already have this kind of thought of the Japanese culture? Was it really when you landed there? You know, when I, when I finally landed there, for me it was like, how come did it take me this long to come here? Because I knew already that I was going to absolutely love it.

Yeah. I don't know why it took me that long, but yeah, but I finally did. And then since I was there, it's like, Oh my gosh, no, I have to continue coming back because it's so big, it's so huge that you're never ending. The the country. So it's I have like almost like fear missing out so much right now. Yeah, yeah, it's really and and

and I have to say, people have a misconception about what it takes financially to to travel to Japan or the Japan. It's a very expensive country. It's not really the case. No, no, no, that that was something from, I don't know, the 80s maybe when the yen was very strong. But it's not the case. It's really not the case. Of course you have to pay for your flights, which also they're not as expensive as any other, you know, foreign destination.

And once you get there, of course you can be in the €700 night hotel room. But but no, it's not expensive at all, both to stay and to eat. Not at all. People have it completely wrong. Yeah, yeah, it's really not expensive. No, no. It's really like €8.00 for lunch, like proper lunch and like. €20 for dinner, but like a good dinner.

Like, people don't even realize that that's what I had in Portugal. Yeah, that's one of the big reasons why I loved it. Yeah, but people wouldn't think of going to Japan because of that and and my my reference is the vending machines which are everywhere and such a culture. Yeah, it's every other 10 meters. You have a vending machine and and for me, the reference is the bottle of water in the vending machine has had the same price since 2017. Wow.

Yeah. Really. Yes. Okay, Yeah, it's like ¥100 and then and then it's like okay ¥100. Five years ago it was like €1.30 or something and now ¥100, it's like $0.69. It hasn't changed so because they are so. Into themselves. I think that they just don't deal with changes for their for their people, they're probably everybody earns the same prices remain the same. They don't have like I don't know and the prices have not changed.

So for us, every year it becomes even cheaper being there because just eating, buying food during the day, a coffee, anything. It's just. Coming from the Netherlands is way cheaper a week in Tokyo than going to the supermarket here. Yeah, yeah. So no, people have a but they've kept it. I think they keep, they keep the

myth, so people stay away. I think because many people put off the idea of going to Japan because they're afraid that it's going to be so expensive, I said Yeah, I always thought it was going to be chunky. I feel like I have less and less reasons not to come. Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I would 100 percent, 1000%. Recommended. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you always kind of traveled around? Like I know Japan is like a big thing and it's it's a yearly thing since 2017 as it always

been other countries as well. Yes, I'm I'm a big I'm a big

traveler. I I love traveling I I love the the the idea especially to islands. I don't know why but I I am a bit of an island freak. So yeah, so, and Japan is also an island, so. So I usually end up for already since a few years. The majority of my time is always on islands. Yeah, and it's always like okay. Where is?

Where is the next island to to go and to discover and and yeah, less and less as I'm becoming older and older, but but I am a very avid traveler, like getting in contact with new people, culture, food, just. Being outside of your usual place and especially if it can be good weather warm by the sea. Where I can get up in the morning and have a swim as the first thing in the morning. And and and just be surrounded

by by water. And and on a place which actually some people might feel claustrophobic on on an island. And I can and and I get the opposite, like when I know I'm in this place and it's just, you know. Nowhere to go. It's actually. I feel very happy. Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. And then and then doors are open. People know each other. Like there's something that the

pace decreases tremendously. The moment you're on an island, everything's slow, everything's friendly, everything's safe. And it's beautiful and it's and it's good weather and and and the landscape is just so I don't know why but yeah I love absolutely love islands. Yeah, I hope to end up living on on on one. I think you will. Yeah, I think I will. I think I will, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, either in Spain or somewhere else, but I think so,

or at least part of the year. Maybe not fully because it also ends up being quite lonely and and sad in winter for example, if. Or if you depend on a ferry or it depends on how how small you go but so maybe not the entire year but definitely at least half of it or or or big parts. Yeah so so no. But I it it was always in my in my family since I was little. We always traveled always, always, always every year to a different place.

And then you you get used to that and then that curiosity, it just continues to grow and and. And and for me that was also one of the reasons why I decided at some point to to to also step out of like traditional corporate life where I would only get like 20-5 days a year of holiday, which I thought this, this, this model doesn't, doesn't work.

No, we have 365 a year and we only get 20 or 25 in this country, let alone other countries where they get like one week or. Or two weeks, I think. This is absolutely crazy. I want to travel and I want it to be the other way around. I want to first travel and then do some work to also facilitate that lifestyle more than anything else. So yes, yeah, being somewhere else. And discovering other people and cultures, it's like the moment I land anywhere, it's like, yeah,

happy. Yeah. I mean, I'm getting more and more addicted to that.

I'm not like you in the way that when I was growing up, we didn't really travel a lot. I have a big family and a lot of families abroad. But when we travel, it was usually for, like weddings or for senior family. It wasn't really for, like, sightseeing. So even like my parents are both from Turkey, I would go there, but I wouldn't really know where I was in the city where we would go to. I would go from door to door, from my aunt to my granddad to, I don't know where, to a

wedding. So that was always kind of the vibe. And then once I got working more, once I started earning my own money, I started kind of thinking about traveling and actually wanting to travel. Before I joined Sybia, I wanted a start date that was going to be somewhere in January and my manager said, well, you can join, but we don't have a project for you, so maybe you always wanted to travel somewhere. And that's where I was like maybe maybe yes, yes.

So I I booked like a trip for myself to New York City because I always said I had wanted to go there. I had never been. So that was kind of my first experience there. I'm very bad at taking holidays, taking time off. So I I had always a lot of time and now, especially with my girlfriend because she loves traveling. We've been traveling more and more and probably when people are listening to this episode, I mean I'm going to be working from remote, I'm going to work

from Barcelona again. It's something we did last year, in May we did Portugal and soon I'm going to do Barcelona again. And I love kind of having this flexibility of balancing

personal experiences, traveling as well as work life. Now that is. Now they're like in parallel. And that is the best thing that has come out out of this whole situation that we've had in the last couple of years. The fact that before for me was also like. Either I work on a project or I travel. There was nothing in between and now there is the possibility of combining being somewhere else. Get embedded in the culture and also not have the rush of going everywhere like if you go for a

month. To Barcelona, like you don't have to get like completely crazy every day. Like we got to go everywhere and we're going to be here for a month and you kind of feel like you you live there. I had the same. I wasn't that much from like the weekend trips or like in and out fast. And no, I, I, I, I would start the year in Bali or I would start somewhere else for like a month or two and and really take the time to be there. Only it was.

A break and then work and now those two things can be combined and that makes it even more interesting. I never thought that that would come that quickly, where I could be on an island somewhere and be working for my clients and have time for myself and time to be there exactly. Yeah, but even before then, you already had this itch, because 25 vacation days is I I get that. It's not. Yes, yes, I completely get that.

Yeah. Is that a big reason why you kind of stepped out of the corporate life or or what were a few other reasons? It was, it was, it was a big one. It was it was having the opportunity to have more time for for myself and and to be able to do several things. One also like you know, I have my mother who is getting old and and she lives in Valencia in Spain where I come from. And normally I would like go in

and out in a weekend. After a week of work I would get a flight, arrive on a Friday, leave on a Sunday or maybe Thursday evening, take Friday off in and out and and stressed and tired. And now I can go there for two weeks or three weeks or take the time that I that I want to have and and if I would do that on a regular contract. Go to Valencia for two to three weeks. That's gone. My holidays are gone, yeah. And then you have Christmas and that's it.

So it's like and then no, so, so being able to go to Valencia for longer periods of time and without having to rush and not stressed and just also have the opportunity to be there, to be present. Yeah, exactly, exactly, indeed. I I. I take time, I go to the beach, I sleep a lot. I go out to restaurants like I take care of her and we take time together.

So it's much nicer that and then having my own time for my own travels as well, where indeed I want to go like one to two to three months at the beginning of the year in winter away. I don't want to be here in the cold and and and the rain, so,

so and and. If if I were to work as a freelancer or if I were to have my own company, I can have the luxury position where I can work nine months a year and that's and that's enough. And of course I could work 11. But if I can work 9 and be off for three months a year, then then then that's phenomenal. That's incredible. Yeah, so I made my calculations and I'm like, I'm going to be making the same amount of money or even more. That depends on how much I decide to work.

But and then I'm going to be able to have this lifestyle. So why would I? Why would I go back to a traditional corporate life? Yeah. So at the moment that I stepped out, I didn't know that I wasn't going back because you're still in in that mode. And there were still talks for me to maybe come back. But when I really stopped and I. Took distance and I went away and I went traveling for for about half a year. It was like no, no, I don't want to go back to that.

I don't want to go back to the. And also one of the reasons was I don't necessarily want the 9:00 to 5:00 for years and years with the same people in the same building with the same conversations. If I can do it for shorter periods of time where I can go in and out companies help them. Through a certain period of time and then move on to to the next place. I will be able this. I know now also in retrospect, after having done quite a few, that I can be way more efficient and objective.

I don't have to get into the politics of everything.

Yeah, exactly. So I'm only there to help and I'm only there to to support. And to enable and to provide and to guide and to put my expertise to their service. So it's like you're received in a very different way as well as the person coming in, because I have 0 interest in any politics in that regard. I'm just here to help. So that also means that my expertise or my arrival is is welcome in a in in in in a very open different way. Yeah. So there's no questions.

There are no doubts. I, it's always like you know, thank you good that you're here and let's get to work. So All in all, it had so much advantages for my own well-being, for my lifestyle, for my financials, for everything that I'm like. Yeah, this, this is, this is the way to go. And I've always done that. Like, I've always tried things. If it doesn't work, I can always go back to a regular job tomorrow, right?

So let me try and see if I can create this this lifestyle that I have envisioned in my head only that was before COVID and it wasn't that that easy yet. And now things have accelerated so much more. Yeah, to be able to do that. So now it's even easier. And also the opportunities have opened even more in my case beyond the Netherlands, like my network and my, my business was pretty much the Netherlands

before. And since COVID as well, it has opened up internationally because people are much more open for you to be working doesn't matter where. So, so yeah, it was, it was we were talking before the the the recording that I was working for a company in Lithuania that I've never been there, I've never met them, we've never met in real life and and I'm sitting in Amsterdam or I'm sitting in Sri Lanka as it happened during the project or I'm sitting in Spain

and it doesn't matter. That's something that would have been unthinkable a couple years before. So I I always hoped that one day we would get there, but I thought it would take another 1520 years for for that to happen. Yeah. And now it's happening. So it's it's pretty incredible. It's incredible, Yeah. When when you were talking about

working from a different country, I mean, I I have the same. And it feels like, I feel like it does require a lot of discipline because you are there, you're in a new environment, you can do so many things. You can fill up your whole calendar basically. Yeah. With activities, yes. Like how do you still be effective in in the work that you're doing at that same time? You have any advice there? I I'm very, very committed and yeah, I'm very responsible in in, in in that regard.

I really and and I I truly enjoy what I do. So yeah yeah so I really like the the 8 hours that I am supposed to be working for for that client. It it doesn't matter where I am. The moment the the time starts I'm like okay, here we go. I make my coffee, I sit down and and I really and I really work my hours because I get also because I work in in. That interim, so I do seven months, eight months usually You come in with a lot of energy to

be very focused in that time. And for me, seven months is enough for me to be able to see the effect of my work. Beautiful. Yeah. So I really, really put myself to it and I lose myself in it and I'm super responsible, so. And but I truly enjoy it. So it's like okay for the time that I'm here. It doesn't matter where I'm sitting. This is my working time now and I go in and all I'm thinking is about the client and my team and the people that I'm working for

and that I'm working with. Yeah, no. So it takes discipline, but it also depends on the environment where you are. Like I was mentioning to you that during that time for this Lithuanian company I went for three weeks to Sri Lanka and and I was working there starting at

1:00 in the afternoon. So I put get up really early in the morning and then go surfing or or do yoga and then have a really great breakfast and then massage or a walk or or whatever it would be and and lunch and still it was only 1:00 in the afternoon. And then I would just either move to the Co working area because I was in a Co working space and it would be by then it would be full with people.

And you can feel also like all these nomads and all these people that are there, everybody's working and like seriously working. Yeah. And then it's there's work and play, yeah. And then weekends the place will be completely empty. It was really a Monday to Friday. Even though you're in Sri Lanka, everyone around the time where Europe would wake up or the US depending on, you know, who you work with, everyone was there. So you get really also like, it's infectious. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or I would go to my room where I had everything set up because I was there for quite a long time. So I had perfect connection. And then I had like a desk and everything. And then okay 1:00, I go up and then, you know, that's it. Get to work. And now it's. I can imagine that it's it can be tempting but but no. For me it's the other way around is I had the entire morning for myself which was beautiful and then OK and now work. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I get that as well.

Yeah, I found a way to balance it out. And I think for me it's also easier because I've always stayed in the same time zones. Yes. Like when I would move time zones, that's when I'm like, OK. Then it probably gets a bit harder because then you have to manage your own time. Yeah. If you're not a morning person and all of a sudden you have the morning off, you find a morning routine, it's like you have to do something. Yes. So I've always kind of had that discipline also probably because

it was easier time zone wise. Yeah.

One of the things I love is soon as you go into the evenings or even on the weekends, you're out of your environment in so much that you have to kind of reinvent yourself or you put things in perspective and you you really learn a lot about what you like and what you don't like. Because all of a sudden, I mean, there's not a lot of friends there. And you make new friends. There's no family there. Usually, yes.

So it's like really kind of, yeah, an adventure, I feel like every weekend or every night, basically. And I love that, yes. And it's it's very easy to to to meet people because everybody is in the same you know mental space and and many people on their own and many people working and it just becomes very very easy to connect with people and people also respect very much okay if you have to work or if you want time for yourself or if we'll go out or yeah.

And then it's very interesting also the amount of people that you meet that are completely different to you, at least to me, because I am much older than than a lot of these people when when I'm in Sri Lanka, I was, that was, yeah, last year, no, 20, yeah, yeah. So a couple years ago, so I was like 48 and and people there are like 25. You don't look that old at all. I must say. Thanks. Yeah, I know. But I I just turned 50 actually. Yeah.

Yeah, so. But. But I don't know, it's also like I have like this young spirit. Yeah. Yes. Like I would go to Sri Lanka and be there at 48 and and and and and there was #1 of 48 like there. Yeah, but, but, but then I get to talk to people of 25 to 35 and and it would happen often like because I wanted to get up early and do yoga rather than go party, you know, so so but it was really funny. Like we would like get together or have a drink after work and you know on the terrace and

dinner, whatever. And then around 10, o'clock 1030 is when everybody would start saying hey, we're going to meet downstairs in 5 minutes and we're going to go to some whatever party. And I was like, okay, See you tomorrow. Yeah. Not for me. Yeah. And then everybody's like, yeah, okay, fine. You know, cool. Yeah. And then you see them the morning after. I like that. And you're all fresh and it's.

But it's cool. But yeah, that makes me also get out of my normal space and routine and get to meet people that I would never, yeah, probably meet and on on an age that I that I don't get in in touch with or or their lifestyle. It's very different than than mine in the Netherlands. Absolutely, Yeah. So it makes it so interesting. Yeah, You touched on kind of

stepping out of the corporate space and I've mentioned many times also on this podcast that I have thoughts about starting my own company. I've always said I was going to do it. I feel like I am going to do that. Yeah, or even freelancing for a bit, what we're kind of. The downsides also of stepping out of that environment, cuz I feel like for me right now, I feel like it would be a lot more work, right? Because I'm in control of how much I work.

I'm in control of kind of the project and the assignment. There's a lot of fears and insecurities that come from taking that step, yes. What are some of the downsides you can share? Yeah, I well, it's very strange. Depends on where you're coming from. Like I was at the time when I when I left I was at Vodafone and I was at like the peak of my career. Very big company and big title and and then you get a lot of attention. That is something that people

need to be able to deal with. And I always realized that it wasn't about me, it was about my title. Yeah, if anyone else in that position would get the same attention. But I would get often asked to go and speak at places. I would be asked to go to events I would get, which I hardly accepted, but loads of invitations to like the craziest things that you can imagine like. A podcast? Yes. Yeah.

And it's something. We're going to fly you on a helicopter to Ibiza and then we're going to do a part. It's like, what? No. Yeah. So it can be very, very tenting and very enticing. And suddenly all that is gone. You know, all the press, all the media, all the interviews, all the all the stuff that you normally would get. None of it, none of it from from one day to the other.

And and you need to realize that that there is a very high way up and then there's a very high, you know, low way down. And you have to be OK with that because suddenly it's it's all gone. And you need to realize that that's not your worth. And that's not because it's you, it's because it's what you represent.

Was it unexpected when it happened? No, no, no. For me it was fine and I was totally prepared for it because I never really took that much of that attention or or like, yeah, I did it for my work and I enjoyed it very much and and and yeah, and I wanted to sometimes say things so if I don't have the opportunity with the point of view, But it was always about Vodafone or our brand or what we were doing. Same with public speaking.

I absolutely loved it. And then you know that first of all that that is all gone and then you you come into also a little bit of like a crisis but not not really my case because I was like I was open. I was just curious more than anything. But it's like Oh my gosh. And now what? Like who? Who am I? Yeah. And and and something really interesting happened to me when I when I quit and and then and then I left and then I went

traveling. The first place was was Bali I remember, and then the 2nd place was Australia and then I went to New Zealand and only when I went to New Zealand it was the first time that on the on the landing card it said profession. It wasn't on the landing card in in Bali or or in Australia it said Profession. And I was like oh what? You have to What do you have to fill in now? Yeah, exactly. I don't have one. Like what? What do I say? Like what? What am I?

So that was that that was quite confronting. Such a simple thing. Yeah, exactly. Because you never saw that so visibly. And then it was like, oh, Oh my gosh, yeah, for the for the first time in 23 years. I cannot answer. When somebody tells me what do you do that, that's also quite shocking, which is your choice. And you've decided that you're going to go away and take time and think and all of that. But it's like. Yeah, yeah, What? What am I? Who am I?

So that's that's. And who am I without the the the identity of my, of my work, of my job, of my title. That's that's one. And then the second one is obviously, when you decide that you're not going to go back to just the security of a regular job, what's going to happen? Am I going to get projects? Am I going to get hired? Am I going to work in the way that I would want to?

And then how and when is that Is that going to happen and am I going to be able to maintain myself and and that insecurity or that not knowing if the next project is is going to come or not. But on the other hand, I what I what I always tell tell people is I don't do crazy drastic decisions, like things are pretty calculated. It looks like quite brave, and maybe it is, but I took a lot of time to prepare for that exit. I took time to save money for

that trip. I took time for many things and

I still do today, preparing myself with enough money in the bank to bridge a certain period of time so that if that next project doesn't come, I don't need to panic necessarily that quickly. If you go month to month, yeah, then you have a problem. So and even then, even if it doesn't work, then I will go back to a regular, to a regular job. Like people sometimes take, they have too much fear of the step. But what? What is the worst, really the worst that can happen?

Like, really, really the most dramatic? Like, you really cannot eat okay. Well, there's going to be a friend, there's going to be a family member, There's going to be someone that I I go to Valentine and stay with my mother for another two months until I find a job. Like for me, I was always like it's not going to, it's never going to be that dramatic unless it has to do with your health. If you're healthy, what is the worst that can happen? You will be back on track and I

don't have any problem. If it really was down to being able to pay my mortgage and I need to work as a cashier in a supermarket, I will do it. I have 0 like. Zero issues with that. No, really not really not. It's like this was my choice. I choice, I choose for something. It didn't work. OK, then I need to make another decision. But I would have zero problem. I think we it wouldn't be a problem to maintain myself. I'm not going to end up under

the bridge. I have friends that will have me over like I have family, like you know, it it it won't be that dramatic. I love that perspective. Yeah. Do I need to sell my house? I will. I will sell the house. Like what? What can I? Yeah. There's always, yeah, there's always options. Yes. Because people fear very much that that step, right? I mean, I. I wouldn't say like I have concerns and like you, I would make sure it's calculated risk.

Yeah, but the thought of going back like it's an option. But if I wanna do something that would never be, let's say Plan B or C, like it wouldn't be an option. Basically in my head it would be a step forward and then I don't think even about stepping back. But the way you're describing it, you're like, yeah, if it doesn't work out, we just. We do that again. And yeah, that's it.

Yeah. I feel like this way healthier and I think and I think that the issue is that many people see that once you've made such a decision, if you would do something different that would be seen as a failure. For me, the point is not so much about corporate or no corporate. I'm still doing corporate. I'm just doing it in a different way, but I'm still working with big corporations. I love marketing, advertising, communications, branding.

I'm still doing the same thing that I was doing before. If the challenge with a company would come along, and I've been contacted a few times for permanent roles. If the challenge would be interesting enough for me to jump on board for another three years into a company because of the nature of the challenge, I would do it.

No issues. No, not at all. So I don't have this thing about corporate. No corporate you leave, you never go back. Like why are we so black and white? Why are we so binary in in in that regard? For me, it's about what I do every day. Yeah, great point. So do I enjoy what I'm doing? Maybe if a company calls me up and I find that company interesting and what the challenge at hand is interesting for the next three years, I will do it. So I don't. Think with any other thing with

any other thing. So for me, it's not about corporate or not corporate. For me was my lifestyle is not according to how I would want it to be in the traditional corporate setting. In the traditional corporate setting, I don't get the holidays I would want. I don't get the freedom that I would want.

I get all this politics. And in my mind, I have already done what was expected of me. Yeah, all the conditioning that I've been carrying all my life, from family, from friends, from media, from society, from you have to do career. You got to go to university, you got to grow, You got to do the ladder. Yeah, all the boxes. I felt, I ticked them all, yeah, and I could continue to take them up, up, up, up, up. But the point? What's the point? Yeah, it doesn't make you happy.

So it's it's like, for whom am I doing this? More ticking the box, right? Or having a bigger role or a bigger job or more people, more money, more budget and more whatever, like, but but actually, for me the question was when? When when I was at Vodafone and then the merger with Seagull came about, that was the moment that for me was very unexpected to people that I at that moment

left. But that was precisely the moment for me to leave, because what I was about to be doing every day was going to change dramatically. So for me, I've always looked at what is it that I do with the 8 hours that I am involved with my job. Do I thoroughly enjoy what I'm doing? Yes. That's why I was at Vodafone for 12 years. Like people were like, Oh my God, I'm like, you have to switch every three to four years and five, 6-7, whoa, 8-9, Oh my God.

I'm like, I love what I do every single day. So I have no rush, no issue, no, no need to go anywhere and do anything where I'm thoroughly enjoying what I do every day. And I had a fantastic team and we were on the roll and it was just the time of my life. But then suddenly this new decision comes about. Everything's about to change. Everything's about to change. Everything is going to be about

the merger. Everything is going to be like I'm going to have to be for the next three years of my life, involved with this merger and managing this merger with everything that comes with it. I was going to have to leave behind the beautiful work that I was doing purely for the Vodafone brand because I was going to be concerned with Vodafone and Seco and managing the merger.

And it was precisely at that point whilst people were thinking, I have the potential to become the brand director of two of the biggest brands in the country. Like, I would be crazy not to. Yeah, and it was precisely when you did, not when I did not because it was like okay. But what what am I going to do 8 hours a day for the next three years of my life? This is going to be totally about everything that that represents. I said this is an amazing challenge, but it's just not

mine. Yeah, it has to be for somebody else. And I had already been there for 12 years. I did everything I wanted to do ever and more and dreamt of and more so fulfilled every single day to the very end. And then I put the ribbon and then it's like okay. And now somebody else has to come and and I'm going to pass the baton to somebody else and they can come in and enjoy this challenge, which is not mine. No to enjoy. And they can own it, yeah, yeah.

But if a corporate company comes in now with a challenge that I'm

thoroughly going to enjoy, of course I will. So it it to me it's not. So yeah, I find that very interesting of people feeling for example, that if I've been freelancing now for six years and I would go back to corporate, like I have the zero issues with that. You know, people would find it for them a failure or you go and you never look back and it's like why do we have that way of of looking at things? For me it's about what do I do? I think that's that's beautifully put because it's

about the essence, like I love. Thinking about owning a company or doing things on my own because they are new challenges. Yeah, but the reason why I'm still here, we we were talking about it. I'm going to hit five years, like next February. Yeah, I'm like, man, that's a long time, But it's still the time that I enjoy. I get to go to Barcelona and work from there for a month. I have full flexibility. I get to do this podcast like there's so many things, so many avenues.

I get to work more with people now. I'm now a team lead and I'm going to do. I have challenges there with people. Now it's besides projects like. There's still so many things I love doing here and I have the flexibility to do. So yeah, that yeah, I love it here. I I I think there's so many of those beliefs that that have been somehow embedded in in our in our society and in our work life. Like that's a long time. Yeah, but what the but? But what does that matter?

What is the time effect? Like, yeah, but like, you have maybe another 30-40 years to go, Like, like what? Absolutely. What? What? What is the rush like? I don't understand what why are we putting time as a as an issue in in in the time that we are at a company as if the need is just to move on whilst we are not contemplating like okay.

But do you enjoy what you do every day that that is for me the one thing that I don't know where it comes from but it's naturally always been with me. I can truly say that every from moment 0 till now in my career, everything that I have done, I have really enjoyed and when I didn't then I left. That's when you move. Yeah. That's when I moved. But but not because oh, it's

been three years. Yeah. But I still have a lot to do and every day I'm enjoying it and there are more possibilities and there is growth and there is potential. And I have a great set of colleagues and and I really, truly every day I go to work with with a smile on my face and and and with ideas constant like my list is always endless right of like. So much to do. And and if you have that energy, then then what time for me was always completely irrelevant.

I mean, I can give you my perspective and this was the perspective of like let's say 5-6, seven years ago it was I want to grow as fast as possible because that was always came out of uni. I wanted to. I mean I saw titles, I still want to get there. I wanted to grow as fast as possible, right? For me it was always OK How much fun do I have growing? How big is the impact that I can make? And with more knowledge and more experience comes a greater

impact. Yeah. And with that I never thought, okay, I'm going to go from company to company and then increase my reach there. No, it was always I'm going to join. I'm going to join a company. I'm going to give it my all right. It's going to be everything. I love building relationships. I know exactly who to call when I need something done. I'd love knowing people and people knowing me and knowing we are effective together, Basically, yes. And I've really enjoyed that.

And when that is gone, that is the only reason why I would move from companies. Basically, yeah. When I stop enjoying what I'm doing, when there's no more challenges, when challenges get removed due to a reorganization or something like that, stuff happens. It can be within your team, within your influence or completely outside factors. And that's when I've moved on. Now I don't have a huge career history because I it was like 3 companies based in one was within another company.

Ish. So, but yeah, that's kind of the. The thought process, I still want to grow as fast as possible and if that stops here, I think that's when it's time to move on then. And what is What is growth? For me, it's growth. It's both on a personal level as well as on a work level. Yeah. So I want to get better at life

skills, basically. I want to learn that on the job, when it comes to public speaking, meeting other people, socializing, networking, yes, being really empathetic with people, helping people, allowing for their fulfillment to be my happiness basically. That's more on a personal level and on a work level. It's more so about the skills being effective with what I do, doing that faster, doing the right thing, not just building something, but building it for

customers for value there. And I feel like on both axes, I want to grow, I want to get better. I still meet people. I'm working with one guy specifically now on my team and it's just it's a pure joy seeing someone at that level executing. I'm like, man, it's still gonna take me so long to get there. Maybe I'll never get there, but I'm really enjoying working together right now and I don't want it to end. Yeah, Nice.

Yeah. Really, really cool. Yeah. For me, what I learned with the years at the beginning, obviously the first jobs, I didn't have that perspective. But what the change for me, which I also give to the people that I coach in their careers is to say what, what is, what is the intention that you have for the time that you're going to be in in that company? Like when people talk about impact, for example, it's like, can we quantify what what that impact is or what, what is that

impact for you? Like do do you want to clean up all the plastic in the oceans? I mean is that, is that your level of impact or or or would you love to be able to impact on people like to see their growth or or change or whatever or do you want to grow this company from 10 million to 100 that can also be like what what is that, that impact, what would you like to have done by the time you leave and then walk backwards and try to do that? Lay out the path, yeah.

And then and only then leave. And then that's going to give you so much pride and joy. Because I get to work with many people that are moving or leaving companies out of despair, sadness, resentment. They're done tired. They don't see it anymore. The challenges are not coming. Their their leaders are not inspirational. All of these things, which is a lot of external factors indeed, which sometimes we don't have control, but there is a lot of internal factors that we do have control.

Even if it sounds difficult or even. But many people I work with is like, there is zero kind of quantifiable idea of what is it that you would like to do before you go within the constraints and within the situation that you have within this company. Doesn't matter. But you know it kind of like what you can and cannot do.

And even if you have to change certain things in the company, if you put yourself to it and you have the energy for it, then could that also be the impact you want to leave behind? Could be that you want to change the culture, could be, you name it, many things that are potentially in your control for you to have an effect on, and it can be your own personal agenda. It's not like people need to know Exactly. Yeah, and I had many hidden agendas.

In a good way, yeah. Yeah, in a good way to try to have a positive effect in the company or in people or transform the culture or the brand or whatever it was. And I was clear about that is what I want to achieve. And until I don't do that, I'm not leaving because I'm on a mission to change something or to do something.

And and many people don't have that. They don't have a specific mission for themselves, even if it's just very simple, yeah. Is that easy for you to kind of lay out and also towards the future Because that's for me what I have more a hard time with. Yeah, because I'm usually and I feel like I'm getting better at it. But especially past versions of me have been a lot reactive. Yes, as in this is now an opportunity and I can see a lot of enjoyment in there.

Yeah, but I would never lay out that I want to grow towards there and. Do that basically. I understand. I understand. Yeah it is it is it it takes it comes sometimes with with age maybe that clarity or but it's not only because I I I had it when I was when I was young as well. Like I think it's interesting to find intrinsically what what drives you what what do you care about is that the question is

really what do you care about. I care about consideration, to be considerate to other people and to be mindful and to be respectful. That for me is so embedded in me. I don't know why, but it's truly fundamental, it's core, it's core to me. I care that people are respectful and that they are mindful of of 1 another and how we deal with with each other. But also when it has to do with companies like how does this

company behave? So sometimes I get people telling me like, yeah, but I am very low in the organization like I don't have a lot of control, I don't have a lot of influence and I'm like that's that's not really an excuse. When I was, and I give these examples, sometimes when I was just at the beginning of my career as a as a communications specialist, I I was only looking at at advertisements that our agency would write and then I would approve them or not and

then publish them. Like that was as far as my you know. Those are things influence went, or my decision level. But still again, my hidden agenda was I don't necessarily like how corporates talk, how they speak to people, how they address people also in their advertising. Toner voice.

Toner voice Yeah it's very patronizing and and and and very much from we are on the top of the mountain and you the little people you do what I tell you to do exactly and the level of arrogance I I I really had an issue. I can. I can see the resentment. Yeah. Yeah. So and and I mean I'm I'm talking about like maybe 20 years ago which was much worse than how today. Also the tone is overall in in in in society.

But and and still I would make a point and I would have my little fights with my with my advertising agency as. Much as you can, as much as I can to make that piece of text respectful and and not to be patronizing and not to be arrogant and to put myself really to the service of the customer that I was sending that ad to. As I grew up and as I went up and I had more and more you know, responsibility and decision making power.

Of course then I've made my impact even bigger in in that sense with like truly trying to transform an entire company and an entire brand. But it doesn't really matter. Wherever I go I always have it in me. This thing about how can this be better, how can we improve this, How can this be good for someone? Can we do something? Wouldn't it be better if I have that always, with every single thing I do?

So it doesn't matter how small your influence is, if you know what you are about and what you care about. I do care about this. And maybe other people wouldn't care at all about this text. And did people see it really like, did it? Did people notice? No. But it was for me. It was never about other people. Yeah, exactly. I was like, I was happy to go home that day with having a respectful piece of text that didn't make any impact in the history of the world, but it was.

But it's my life, yeah. And it's my you. Have to make impact in the world. That's the impact that it does on me to be happy to at least my ads are going to be good and respectful. In line with what you value exactly in, in line with with what I care and what I really truly also believe that corporates need to be much more serviceminded and to put

themselves really in in that role. So that's always how I how I looked at everything So and I I didn't have at that moment like okay. I will only leave when my ads are going to be that way. But but because I was in no in no place to be living, because I was very happy with what I was doing. But I always had like some kind of impact or some kind of goal

that I wanted to achieve. Even if just for myself where I could see the effect of what I do and if even within when when you have very little influence, yeah it doesn't. It doesn't really matter. And I and I and I said it many times. If I had to, if I had to go and work at the supermarket as as a cashier, I would, I would find ways to to make it better, to improve it, to to be of good service to the people coming in like it's in me.

So it doesn't matter where you are and or how big you are in the organization or how fast you go. I think sometimes people have that like it's not very clear what that is. And because it's not clear and it's not going to come out of nowhere, then we get lost. And then it's like, well, I have to go somewhere else. Yeah. And then eight months later, it's going to be the same. You have the same in the next place because you didn't figure out out of yourself, what do you

really, truly care about? And what are you here to do with your intention in the time that you're going to that you're going to be here. And maybe you thought it was going to be one way, and then you come in, and then after a few months you might discover, well, maybe, maybe not. But still, even then, what with the possibilities that you have for as long as you're going to be here every day when you come and you open your laptop, how are you going to view things in

what way? What are you going to do? What do you want to what do you want to achieve for yourself. And it's so much nicer and so much better to than two years 357 doesn't matter. Whenever you're like, oh, I I I did that thing and and that was for me the the thing with Vodafone is like, oh I did that. I did what I wanted to do it transform this brand. Now we are on A roll. Unfortunately, it's gonna stop. But I did what I set myself out to do. Fulfillment.

Yeah. And then now is the moment for me to go. And therefore I'm totally okay with leaving and moving onwards and passing it on to somebody else. And now it's there challenge. Exactly, yeah. And then when I go now, even as a freelancer, many people ask me, yeah, but as a freelancer you cannot really have a lot of influence or impact or cuz you go short time and and you're in and out and feels like you know you do it for financials you don't really care, not at all.

No, not at all. Why would you do it otherwise? Not at all, yeah, but I do the same thing as it's like okay. I have six months in this place or seven months in this place. What is it that I can do within the context of the challenge that's been given to me? What I need to do here and what would I like to leave behind when I look at the situation? Okay And then I put myself to do that during those six months. And I keep constantly looking at the endpoint, which is the date

that I'm going to leave. And it's like what are some of the fundamentals that that I need to leave behind in this time to really, yeah, to really help this company and to really, really be of of good service to them and to the team and to the people that are that are here. And then I walk backwards and then that's why my days are completely like flying by. This is like I don't have enough. I don't have enough time to to do what I what I want to do.

And not that I don't I cannot create the impact. It's just that there's so much bubbling all the time in my mind as to how to do that for them to. Contribute. Yeah, Yeah. So the construction, it doesn't matter. Contract, freelance, full time, part time, it doesn't matter. Like, what do you care about? Yeah. What do you leave? What do you want to leave behind? And can we sometimes quantify a

little bit some of those terms? Yeah, like I want to have an effect or I want to have an impact.

Okay, what exactly? Yeah, I mean, for me it feels like the way you describe it and I don't know how to get this. I think I have it, but I don't know how to how to convey this. Some people have this intrinsic motivation that whatever they do, they want to do it better, right?

More effective, more efficient, more optimized, basically elevate it. And I had that one I had was 16 and I was working at like a fish and chips in fallendom because I was like, OK, if we do this and this and this, it's going to be more efficient, I'm going to have more time to do other stuff. Basically in my head I was optimizing. My little brother has it. He worked out as a cashier. He was like stocking shelves and stuff and he was like, if we do it like so and so.

It's going to be better. We can do more based on that. Some people have that they want to optimize. They want to do better. And some people just want to come in, do the thing and then go out. Sure. I don't know how you can get from one end to the other. And then even if so, if you really want to do your best, right? If we're talking about kind of your early experience when you had this article in front of you and it wasn't the tone of voice that you stand behind, right? Yeah.

You could have said, okay, this is not the tone of voice. I stand behind and then let it slide. But you're not a person that's afraid for a confrontation. So you probably got into that conversation and maybe you didn't think it was going to be a confrontation. But at the end, probably, I'm sure it was a discussion, right? People that don't like discussions, they're never going

to take that step and do that. Even though they might value something when things are not in line, they would never take that extra step and do so. Yeah. Do you feel like people should be more inclined to have those conversations? Is it because they think they can't really change their sphere of influence that much or what do you think it is? It really depends on on how open are you to to have that. Yeah conversation and indeed what is your your breath, what's what's the.

And also the time span you're going to give yourself. Like like I knew that later on when I when I really wanted to change, for example the a brand which was highly commercial into being a lot more purposeful. I knew that it was going to be blood, sweat and tears for years.

I knew that we were a highly commercially driven company, very much sales driven push, which was going to take like a complete different mentality to go to where I wanted to bring it to. And I knew that I wasn't going to do it in one day. But then it really depends on again on like how much do you really care about. So for me, I placed myself and I said okay, listen, I'm in my work environment. I have another 40 years to work in my career. This matters to me.

So I'm just going to be here for as long as I need to be. Until I get it done. Until I get this thing done, yeah. Because otherwise what? What? What is the point of doing anything when I can have them maybe the capacity to influence such a big brand. And I and I literally said that to my team. I from the very beginning, I said I don't know how long this is going to take. Yeah, it's going to take long this. Is the goal though? Yeah, but this is indeed the

goal. And I painted the picture and the picture was beautiful and. And it was exciting and it was motivational and it was. Yeah. And then we walked back and then we realized that we still needed to do loads of things that maybe we didn't really enjoy that much. Or like Okay. And this is also where I often tell people, it's like, if you look at the bigger picture, there will be things that you don't really enjoy, you don't really want to do. Not everything is going to be fun.

Not everything is going to be enjoyable. Not everything is going to be an intellectually rich challenge, but is that in the context of that bigger picture, then do that in order to achieve what you want to achieve. So we knew that we were still going to have a very, you know, concentrated focus on sales until would slowly would be able to move to to another space. So I wasn't naive to try to convince people by talking to go somewhere because it was just

not going to work. I said it's this is going to be massaging, this is going to be politics, this is going to be a lot of work and it's going to take a lot of time. But I have the patience, right? Like for me time is is irrelevant. The point is what do I want to achieve? And I was again, I was on a mission to change something that really mattered to me. So I'm like for as long as it takes, that's it.

For as long as it takes. Because what is the rush to go anywhere to do what that it might not be just as important or as impactful for me as this could potentially be. And for this entire team of people. My team was there pretty much the entire five years that I ended up having this role. We were the same team. It's like we went for it. Yeah. And and we still we we talk to each other and we say all those were the days. Like it was amazing, right?

But it was hard. It was really, really hard. Like, like don't don't think that making a big change can go fast. But do you have the patience and do you have the the willingness to go through the difficulties of every day and come back next day and keep going? Yeah. I feel like your belief needs to be very strong as well because. Sometimes I'm like, man, this is not possible either within the context this organization with these people like, it's just it's not possible.

And especially when you have a longterm plan and a vision that is strong, you need to have belief that it is still possible. Yes and and I have to say it's

one of the skills that really helps and and I was blessed with it, is is, is to be good with politics. It is. I saw it as a game. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I saw it as a game. It's chess. It's plain chess or Aikido. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's, it's, I didn't see it as that much of a negative thing. Of course it's not pleasant to be dealing with all of these things and people's fears at the end.

It's all yeah fear based and and but I always took it as like okay let's see if I can if I can manage this one. Yeah let's see if I can turn around this person or let's see if I we can get it to another space.

Again hidden agenda for me I was very clear in my mind what I was trying to do with this person or where I was trying to get them to go or try to switch their their mentality and and and and I enjoyed it. So I I didn't see politics as dirty thing in a sense but it it's just psychology and it's just people. So it's like how are you going

to deal with this person? Because there is a reason why this person is acting this way that there is a reason behind their anger or their frustration or their fear or whatever it is that is making your life hell. Yeah. So let's figure out where this person is coming from and and and what is the pressure they're getting from above or from the side or don't look just at yourself.

Look at this person and try to try to figure out what is going on with them, because nobody wakes up in the morning to to be difficult. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like it's it is really innate in you, kind of this curiosity and perspective. As I hear a lot of people say, it is what it is. It's one of my phrases that I hate the most. It is what it is. Yeah. No. Just say I'm like, yeah, but that means you can't. You can't influence it. You can't change it. You've accepted that there's no

change. It's not true. I feel like with you you're like, no, there must, there must be something. There is always a way. Yeah, there is always a way. If there is a will, there's a way. And and it is all about people. Yeah, but okay, if we're willing to give up very easily, if it doesn't go your way from the start, yeah, then then. But if if you understand that, I always say it like that. I said nobody wakes up in the morning to be to make your life hell. Yeah, that's not.

It's not a mission. It's not a mission from someone getting up in the morning and saying, hey, let's see if I can make Patrick's life hell today. But people take it that way. Yeah, yeah, feels like that sometimes. Feels like an attack or feels personal and and and I slowly of course I'm also human it came also with age learning but I learned to less and less obviously start to make it about me and taking a personal not let it not let it come to my side of

the court. Yeah, to be able to draw the line objectively and and say this person is suffering, this person has an issue. Yeah, there's something wrong. Something is going on, and it's not because of me. It might be because of their boss. It might be because of pressure. It might be because of their family. Maybe they had a bad day. Maybe their wife is in the hospital. Who knows? Something is going on with this person. That doesn't mean it's my

problem. Yeah, because now you're being an idiot and it's not my problem.

Take yourself out of it. Yeah, but. But do we have the capacity and the empathy and and the willingness to like take a moment and and really have a series of questions and an interest in what is going on with this person rather than the clash and the conflict? And we both go away and we escalate. And like that's one of the things I really, really don't like at all. Is escalation going to your bosses or going up and up and up and up?

No, no, no, we're going to solve it and we're going to sort it out ourselves. But but it it takes a lot of again. Takes more patience and then escalate. Exactly.

Yeah it's much easier to go and make a problem out of it or make a big fuss out of it or go into conflict then like OK, but wait a minute but what is going on like and there are many ways to have those conversations and and I've also been trained in like giving feedback or having difficult conversations and you can learn also a lot of it and then put it into practice and and become much better at it. But but I I saw politics not as

a bad thing, but as a people start acting in a certain way, but they're not against me. No, it's not willingly. No, no. There is another reason behind. But do we want to even go there? Yeah. And I wanted to go there because. A lot of people want to. No, no, no. But I was like, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to. I'm not going to let this happen. No, no, we're going to, we're going to have this conversation.

I'm going to ask you again and again and again until you finally tell me what what is going on. More importantly when I have that information and it could be. So imagine somebody wants me to do something and I don't want to do it in the way that they're telling me to do it because they're just giving orders and and I also have a little bit of difficulty. Yeah. With just. Yes, Sir. It's like why based on what

okay. So somebody comes to me and maybe because I'm a service department, for example, or so perceived, and I'm like, yeah, but this request really doesn't make any sense. It's a waste of money. It's a waste of effort. It's a waste of resources. It's like I'm not going to go to my agency and ask them to do this also blindly, without any creativity, just because you've said I want this and I want it red and I want it with these letters. It's like okay.

Then you have to have the the they are the willingness and the patience to go through those questions. And then what turns out at the end, for example, is that their boss is pressuring them okay and then they're pressuring me. So it just goes down. Yeah. So what I what I do is instead of that, then I team up with this person because I said okay. But what is the pressure? What what? What does he want? Is he further being pressure more even more from high above?

Do you know that? Like where is that pressure coming from for him or her? What can we do in that okay? So is he looking for this or is he looking for an answer? Is he looking for a solution about this or would he be happy if this other person would get off his back because of this? Like help me understand what what really the core of the issue is. The issue is not that you want this in red with these words. That's not it. That's not it. Something is going on.

Your your boss is pressuring you also for some reason. So what is that reason? So that things change from us being in conflict, me fighting with this person. I'm not going to give you what you want because I think it's nonsense what you're asking me. Yeah, but I'm asking you, but I'm asking you to do it now, but I'm not going to do it. And then our bosses need to intervene.

And then there's escalation and there's conflict between the two of us. The exact same situation can be completely turned around to then become allies and become a team to do something to solve the issue for their boss. Suddenly I'm the good person. I'm the good caller. You're in the corner, yeah, I'm in their corner.

And we are going to solve this together because their boss is pressuring them for a reason and they don't want to be pressured, but they haven't done that exercise with their boss. But I'm going to do it with you. And then I feel sorry that

you're feeling pressured, but that's not really my problem. But I'm going to help you. Yeah. And now we're becoming friends. Yeah. And now I'm going to give you a good solution that you can give to your boss that is based on addressing the challenge and not following orders exactly. And the solution might be different than what you came to me with. But you have to give me the room now to address the issue.

Don't tell me what to do. Tell me what the challenge is and then I will give you an answer. And the answer is probably better than what you came up with. I will make you see that in a nice way that is not going to feel offending to you. We're going to go to your boss. Your boss is going to be happy and you're going to be happy and we're going to be happy

colleagues. And that's how I got my way around to do a ton of stuff with sympathy and with agreement with with people in the company because there was a good solution. There was a there was a resolution and and I cut that off and the people thought, it's easy working with you. It's not that it's easy working with me. I am making an effort. Of course it's easy to work with me because I'm making an effort, yeah, to not let things escalate.

More importantly, to go blindly. For solving real problems following orders, I had that with my very very direct boss at the beginning. It took him time to also work with me in the sense that he was used to giving orders and. People would execute, but then here I came. Along they're like, huh? And then I would tell him, okay, I'm more more than happy to do that, but could you give me a little bit of context as to where is this coming from? You're asking me this for a reason.

You have an intention with what you're asking me to do. It's not clear what what is that intention. What do you want to achieve with with this? Because I can say yes Sir, go back and give you exactly what you're asking me to do. Or I can just say, could you give me a little bit of like, where is it coming from? What what? What is going on in your mind? What's you're asking me this. You've been thinking about this like you don't come up this morning and just say let's keep

her busy, right? Like there is something that you want to achieve with this thing you're asking me. So first it would be like, yeah, I don't have time for that, but I would just stay there, very friendly, very calmly.

But you do have an intention. Help me understand what you want to get with this because you're and and I would mirror him as well like I can see that you are annoyed or I can see that there's urgency in in this so something is going on or or or something has made you ask me for this and because I was so a pain in the ass in the sense of like I'm not moving from this chair until yeah and and I'm not a big getting angry or not I'm just very calmly like. But I'm and I'm truly

interested. Yeah, in in in you. Because I I need to understand why I do what I do. Of course. Otherwise that's a big thing for me as well. It's huge. Is like, what do I do? Leave the room with like, yes, Sir, the orders deliver. I can't do that. I need to understand why I do what I do. And I want to be intellectually challenged, right. So more importantly, what he was asking me to do, I thought it was nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a big driver. How do you tell that? Yeah.

To your to your boss. Like, I'm sorry, I don't want to do that. Like, no. Well, now you going to do it because I tell you so Okay, Go and do it. Yeah. So I didn't want to find myself in those situations. So okay. So then I would ask him and again and again and again he finally would tell me what the reason was. Okay. There had been something internal and blah, blah, blah. And now our competition is coming close to us on this, which it shouldn't have happened and the okay.

So you need an answer and you need quick action to try to counterbalance something. Do I understand that correctly? Yes, Okay said. Give me 24 hours. Yeah, and let me think about this and I'm going to come back with something. Okay. Turns out sometimes I would come up with a better solution. Of course, because you understand the problem. I understand the challenge and I give it thought. And I put some people to think about it. And then we come up with a solution that is more effective,

more costeffective as well. We're going to spend less money. We're going to have better reach. We're going to like, whatever. And it was not to say mine is better, but just to say, and I will tell him this, I can do A, which you asked me to do. I've been thinking about it. Here's B. This is what we can achieve with B, you tell me. And B was of course, better than A. Yeah. And he would see that. And he would say like okay.

Yeah, going to be OK. I would do be hopefully and luckily turn out to be successful. Great. Next time same thing. He would come and then I to the point that we worked together for a few years and then we would laugh about it and then he would come. He would call me to his office and but first thing he would say, let me give you some context. Yeah, but laughing, right? He. Has the trust now? Yeah. And because he knew that he couldn't, you know, so. So it became really, really

funny. And then and then, you know, we would truly laugh about it. Let's take 5 minutes for context, you know, like he knew that he couldn't just tell me, OK, just do that but and and then and then we would solve

challenges. So I I've always told everyone, because I work in branding and marketing and that happens very often because people have a very particular opinion about branding and communications. Yeah, everybody thinks they know what to do, right? So, and they come already with the solution. Give me a poster, give me and print ad, give me a social media post. This is what I need. And I'm like, no, don't tell me

what you need. Don't tell me what to do, don't tell me what the touch points are. Tell me what the challenge is and then I will give you the solution to that challenge from my communications and marketing perspective. So but this it takes a lot of massaging and standing and not barging and asking the questions and but if you do realize that by doing that time and time again, it didn't take my boss 15 times to have this conversation.

It took us three maybe for him to understand that he needed to let me know what the issue at hand was rather than marching orders wasn't going to work. So after 3 * 4 * 5 times, yeah, then we we got to learn how to work with one another and the same one for my direct colleagues. I treated that the same way. I said. But where is the issue coming from? Or what makes you react this way?

Or or I can see that you're annoyed or I can see that you're frustrated or that you want something different and I can see that meaning you're out of line. Like like you have a problem. It's not my problem. I'm here calmly and you are coming in like that. What is going on with you, not with me. Yeah. And you do that in a nice way and in a friendly way and in a in a in a collaborative way and and then you you get your way around. And I learned and and I enjoyed it to.

Navigate that, Yes, yeah. Because it was. It was, it was kind of like a game to me in the sense of like, can I make this happen? Like can I turn that around? Can I use my personal skills and my emotional skills to to address what is going on with someone? And that if and that eventually evolved over time to realizing that that I could read through people. I could see people, and that's what then started developing into mentoring and coaching and yeah, I had that within me.

Like to see what's going on with you. Yeah, yeah. Something is not quite right. And I could see through that. And that also developed into being part of my career eventually. Yeah. Yeah, me too. For me, the figuring out the why has always been a big thing from a software development perspective, but exactly the same thing you laid out. Tell me what the problem is with the challenges, with the context.

And then we can come up with a better solution that you can give me. I didn't know that shines through or or holds true in a lot of aspects, but it makes total sense. Yes, right. It doesn't matter what you're building, what you're doing. Basically, when you understand the context, understand the challenge or the problems or even the boundaries that are there, right, you can come up with a solution. And it doesn't matter what the solution is at the end of the

day, or which solution we take. No, it matters that we have to get a shared understanding and we pick the solution we think is

right exactly most important. And that that makes that that that changes everything from from conflict to being able to work together in a good way. Because the moment you you instead of saying, well I don't want to do that or that doesn't make any sense or I don't have time for that or I'm really sorry, but that doesn't fit my blah blah blah blah. All the conflicts that are happening from clashing from.

I don't want to do what you're asking me and don't get me wrong, I 70% of the times I didn't want to do what people were asking me. But but it is about truly caring about trying to understand this person and when you, it's disarming also to the person when you stop and you don't go into the conflict, into the into the. I'm not going to do that for you. But you go into the what would you like to achieve with this? Like I'm really interested in you.

I'm really interested in knowing what what do you want? Because I am going to give you what you want. So I'm not saying I'm not. I'm not going to give it to you. I'm going to give it to you. But then suddenly people feel like, oh, I'm being heard, then I'm being listened to and and she actually. Because they are, Yeah. Yeah. Because she cares about what I have to say. Well, I yes, I do. And also because I'm not going to go with your solution.

Yeah, but I I'm not going to tell you that from the start because we're going to conflict and we're going to crash and we're going to clash and we're going to escalate and. Yeah, it's not productive, not at all. So it's like, but I already know that. I'm not going to do what you're asking me, but I am going to also take you to a space where, first of all, I'm going to gather more information to understand the issue. Second, I'm going to make you feel heard and understood.

And that's the part of the of the playing, the game of the politics, which can be a little bit manipulative sometimes, but never in a bad way, because it was always meant to for the improvement of things. But it's like, do you also really care about. Yeah, yeah, the person you have in front of you. That makes you good at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see now that you're good at it. Yeah, because it's like, it's

very disarming for people. Before, I used to like, it's either a yes or a no. Either you do what I'm telling you or you're telling me no and then we get in a fight. Yeah. And it's not. Like that? No, no, it's gonna take me maybe three more steps. But patience, patience. It's everything really, really, really like it's the most important thing that people don't have. No, no time. Somehow there's no time for no one but for what? But like what are you trying to

achieve? If you want to change something or if you want to again, do you, how do you want your days to be at work? Do you want your days to be revolving around difficulty and conflict? Because that's what many people do, is like to the barricades every day. It's like, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to spend my days like that. And also, I don't have the fantasy that we're all one big happy family.

Yeah, that's also not the case because I think companies, corporations are one of the biggest. Social experiments ever. Like you put 20, thirty, 5200 people together that are completely different from one another and it's like, all right, you guys go, go figure it out. Yeah, it's like it's it's insane. So of course that's going to be conflicting, clashing and like we don't understand each other

the same way. We're completely different in the way that you operate and I operate and everything. So I never had the fantasy that in any work environment is always going to be, can be respectful, can be fun, can be nice. But at the end of the day people are coming with their own selves to work which are we are all full of flaws and and issues and and we bring that to the workspace of course same as on the personal life, we bring it to work. So and and off we go.

Yeah. And then you have to work with one another, which are people that you haven't even chosen for yourself. So it is very hard to be in a company because it's like this, this huge. Yeah, I mean really there there should be like cameras in to to analyze how how we operate in there. And it's so insular and it's and it's so barely looking and it is like there's nothing else in the world.

It's like the world revolves around this company and it's like, so not true at all, but that's the feeling. And then and then That's happening every day, 8 hours a day. So every organization also and changes in COVID and this and that and it's like constant and

but I never had the fantasy that that that my intention was to create this beautiful harmony that we're all going to meditate and no no that's also not reality but but but within that context you can make your life much easier and enjoyable and bring it to your own place and drive your own agenda if you are very conscious of what you're doing every day and. What you want to do, Yeah. And that's also another one. Many people are not conscious. It's just automatic pilot,

right. Even if you're at home working remote or or in the office, we open the laptop and close the laptop. What, what was the intention that day? Like what is driving you? Yeah. To be here and and and and to do and to do what you do. And if you have that agenda of yours smaller or bigger in terms of what you want to change, address, impact, you name it, then it doesn't really matter.

You know where you're going And also helps you to filter your interactions and decision making on that basis. Because suddenly things are not that important anymore to have an issue or to have a clash. If you have the patience and you know that what you want to achieve is going to take you maybe three years and you have an issue with someone today, it's not that it's not important, but. It grounds you and gives you perspective. Because tomorrow is another day and it's fine.

Then you come back but address the issue and and and and try to work with this person so that and for me was you know like that like I also tell it to to to my clients. It's like it's never and you know, the walk guacamole that, yeah, walk a mole, you know that thing on the fair, it's it's that thing. That's hilarious. Yeah. It's like it's oh, another one. Boom, OK, we're going to have the conversation.

We're. I'm going to have to ask you the questions and we're going to have to go through that. And then my boss is popping up again with a marching order, Another one down, Here we go. Yeah, here we go. And it's every day. And it's like, OK, what? I have another one to put down. Yeah.

And not in a bad way, but like really I'm going to address it And and I'm not going to say that I thoroughly enjoyed it, but but yeah, it's fun if you if you see it as I am on my path to something and I'm going to come across people that they're not going to agree with me or they're not going to operate in the way that I do or my bosses are going to ask me for things. And hey, and at the end, of course, I couldn't always

achieve everything I I wanted. I mean at the end it's their prerogative on a number of things and it's their decision. But again, that also brings you perspective. Like Okay today didn't go my way. Maybe that's Okay. I come back tomorrow and I keep going. Yeah. So I always have that. And therefore time becomes a relevant conflict is more doable. Yeah, you can manage it. It's bearable. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

To the point of almost enjoyable from the perspective of like okay, but if I can bring somebody along and move the needle, yeah, I moved the needle And this colleague now sees me as an ally and as a as a good person to work with instead of an enemy and and and understanding that that really human nature by definition is, is we are good people. At the end of the day, we are, yeah. It's at the core of it is is good intentions, it's love. It's we are made of like good stuff.

Yeah. If somebody is coming in and being very difficult, something is going on. Yeah, something must be wrong then, yeah. And at the end and and don't let that come to your side of the court and ruin your day. Of course it's difficult because it's not easy not to take personal. And this has taken me many years to to be able to address that and not make it to me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But it's. Yeah. And if you do that, then OK. And then when you're ready then, and you do what you want it to do, then OK, then.

Time to move. Yeah. It's I love your perspective and kind of your awareness of a goal makes time and the feeling of now way more irrelevant, and that allows you to be grounded in those conversations. And still steer people have the patience and collaborate. I always said this is kind of one of my last thoughts cuz I really have to round it off now. We're running a really long time. But I always said escalations are not a bad thing because for me, especially already on, I got

things done because of them. Also me, I didn't have the patience. I wanted to go faster. I thought we could go faster. So if I needed to escalate to get something done, I'd be fine. Yeah, I'd be like this is how we do it. Yes, that's normal. But I do agree that. The right way would be to have the patience to talk it out, yes. It doesn't have to be an escalation. Yeah, I never liked escalating, but I would do it. Basically, I wasn't afraid of doing it.

Yes, because if I felt something was right. I wasn't gonna sit down and take it. No, I was gonna escalate and make sure that what I thought was right was at least gonna be discussed. Yeah, because otherwise it would never be a discussion.

Yeah. And I I had as a manager was when I was a leader and I would get people to escalate to me or they would come to my desk and on our one on ones they would just throw up like you know issues about this colleague and that other colleague and whatever and this person from the other department and and they would in a way we're asking me to solve it for for themselves with their own managers or with their own bosses.

I always had the same thing. I said when you escalate you also don't realize that now you I have to do the work for you and I also have my bosses above me that I need to deal with and I have you guys as my team and now you are because I'm your manager. When you come and come into a problem then the easier thing is to escalate and then put it on my plate. And now I need to solve it with my peer, with the boss of this other person.

I would always stop it and I would not act upon it necessarily but rather have the conversation with this person 1st and said what has happened in a sense without saying it literally but and then I would guide them and help them and mentor them and everything to like what is it that you have not managed at your level to solve this issue. I also have them at my level every single day, three times everyone does. And I'm not escalating 1 to my

bosses. So I want you to not escalate to me because I want you to solve it and address the issue and it means you're not capable of having a conversation and addressing the problem with your colleague. And then you get frustrated. And then you escalated to me and now you said you solve it now for me, like no, no. So but I wouldn't just say no to that.

Of course, if it had merit and if it was logical and of course, but I would rather, you know, have the conversation to mentor this person as to how to have the conversation with this colleague, to not to not let it come, Yeah, to that situation. And then I would say okay, but sometimes even like, but did did you actually grab a coffee with this person and have a conversation? No, we've just been on e-mail and now I'm done with it, right? And now it escalates.

It's like maybe, you know, maybe you should take the time to grab a coffee. I'm not going to talk to their boss as yet, so please have that conversation. Figure out what the actual issue is and why did you guys aren't. Why are you not able? This is also part of your development. You need to figure out that you need to solve your own issues. Yeah so so that's what.

And therefore I am not keen on escalating either because it looks for myself to me as I have not been able to address the issue and now I need to go to my boss only. Yeah, maybe we will go into that, but. I can tell you after the show, when I ask you later, I think

you're gonna laugh about it. What I what I what I always said and what I what I do and what I still do is. And this is one of the tips that has helped me. The best in my career ever is only come with good news only to your bosses only talk about a milestone. You have done something. You have achieved a great e-mail from a colleague that was very happy with your work. Share it. People that couldn't get along

with each other. You have intervened and now you know there's great collaboration, whatever, whatever. And you talk about that only good news, never an issue, unless it was really, really, really to the point that I had given it my all and couldn't solve it anymore. Or for their information about something very specific that they needed to be aware of, but never with complaints, bad news or escalations.

Solutions. Anything that comes to any of my bosses in their inbox will always be pleasant to read. Always something good that happened. Yeah, yeah. We are improving this thing. We have led the legacy behind. We have whatever the address the next milestone. We have started collaboration with HR and corporate communications and now we are working together on this and that and look at the 1st results. They're awesome. Only that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, but.

What if you needed them to, let's say, change a process or something like that based on feedback? No, that's that's OK. Like like addressing something that is not working? Yes, but what I what? But what I always do as well. I might tell my bosses that something is not working or that I would like to see something different. But if I say that then I coming already with the potential solution. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, No, never like throw things on the table for them to solve.

Or now it's your problem, or now you need to deal with it and now you need to do the investigation. And now I need to think of the solution whilst I also have my full on job already and I need to do yours as well. So so I'm always like try to solve it, come up always with good news, let your emails be always a pleasant thing to read and never give problems and when there are issues, because of course there are always always we need to.

I mean my list are always endless of things to solve and address and things that are not working and could be improved. But I always come with, I have looked at it, but this is the potential solution or I've looked at it. We're stuck. Yeah. And I would need your help for this particular, this specific thing on this day with this person.

Yeah. Like I am having something now where in the project that I'm working where some decision is going to the board of directors and and I am prepping my my board member to to let him know that this is coming on the agenda on the day and that I really need him to support that for that to go through okay because if if that doesn't happen then we're pretty screwed on something okay but that's okay. But I am telling him hey we've already investigated everything. We are ready to go.

We have it all has passed security has passed all these things legal. So I've done all my job now. I do need you. Yeah. But. But that's very particular because he's a board member and those decisions are happening on

the board meeting. Yeah. So, but yeah, of course things are happening very often. But people have a very easy tendency to just blur everything out. Yeah, Complaining or waiting for the one-on-one to throw it all out. And I'm like, do you really realize what that does to your manager, which is already fully busy? Yeah, yeah. Just piles on. Everyone piles on. Can somebody give me some breather? Yeah. And I'm that person solution. Yeah, I'm the solution driven

person. The good news person that this has been taken care of and I would only come to you. And that also makes it that you get a lot more support at that moment. People love working with you. Yeah. And also because if I really tell you that I'm stuck or that I need your help, it's serious because I'm not coming with that every day. I'm only coming every so often and.

And not. Yeah, and then they take it very seriously And because they know that if if not, I wouldn't ask, Yeah. So I always tell people very often like could you please also be mindful of how much is going on already with your manager and that blurring all your issues out waiting for that one meeting in the week. Yeah, it's maybe not the best. It's not helpful for either side, I feel like, Right, Because you're not going to feel

empowered to make any change. Your manager's going to have more work and you're going to feel like they're already fighting for you. It's like, yeah, because you also need to fight for yourself. Yeah. And once you do that, I think your manager is going to love working with you more. Other people are also going to love working with you. Yes, because you either bring solutions or you bring good news. And I have that, I have that very often that people coming in

with a problem. But then I would say and and what would you suggest? Yeah, right to solve. That it's not that hard of a question, yeah. What would you suggest as a solution? Oh, I don't know, They didn't think of that. It's like, no, no, okay, it's okay to bring the problem, but starts with that. But I want you to think already of the solution and if the solution is something that I can help you with, I will. Of course.

I will intervene, of course. But but not just what the problem is. No. Yeah, there's a problem with this, With this, With this. With this. With this. OK, Meanings done. OK. Bye. Yeah. Like, no. Yeah, there's a problem.

Problems are going to happen every day. But what do you suggest? Yeah, to solve it, yeah. It's a really good mantra. Yeah. If this was a lot of fun, I must say, Oh my gosh, very long. It was quite long, but also people don't know this. We've been talking for an hour even before that. Thank you so much for waiting for us. Yes, I had some issues there, No problem. Was this conversation kind of what you? To expect to going into it, yes, yes, yes. Well, we also had a that. Makes sense.

A call before, also before, even today and this afternoon. Yeah. But you're a great host and great questions. So yeah, yeah. No. And I think it's lovely that you're doing this addressing what goes beyond, you know, your actual literal work every day. Yeah. So these questions are so important. Thank you. Yeah. I love doing it. So, yeah, I'm going to do it for as long as I'm going to do it for as long as I can. Yes. Yes. But that's also like, what do you care, right.

Like you do care about these questions. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so curious, and I mean it's basically the format that is most easy to do. It's like. The time amount, right. But I could go for hours. Yeah, that's guy. Yeah, yeah, me too. Like, I don't even know what time it is. I like, yeah, yes. Yeah. But I will round it over here. Yes, sorry about that. But thank you now. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thanks.

So much for coming on. I'm going to put all a for socials in the description below. Check her out, let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.