Tech Startups, SaaS and Funding with Denise Edwards

Hi everyone, my name is Patrick Gill and for today's episode we covered Tech startups. Specifically those that operate in the software as a service space selling to other businesses. We go over when to stop building your product and actually start selling the importance of sales and marketing there. How to scale your organization and even get funding and much more. Joining me today, is Denise Edwards. Who's the founder and CEO of sauce?

Launched Ohio, where she helps organizations with specifically that and much more. I'll put all her social In the description below. Check her out. And with that being said, enjoy the episode.

Enjoy my personal story, I wasn't always like this. I was always the kid that didn't want to do presentations and they want to do anything. So with the medium that a podcast is, I got better at kind of externalizing, my internal thoughts and communicating in that way. But for you, I think I mean you have it, I don't know what it is but you definitely have it. Have you kind of honed and practiced it on purpose? Or was that always coming there?

Oh, that was never in there. Tell you Patrick like I am like I was like you I'm telling you honestly like if I would ask my parents. Yes, the shy girl, I wouldn't even talk to anybody. I think up to like 78 years old, I was super shy. Wouldn't say anything. Yeah. And I remember at school, like people were very articulate and stuff and I was just kind of like a shy girl, like analyzing a lot of stuff.

Yeah, and they think honestly, that changed when I think turned 14, then it became a little bit more social, but I was never the person like really wanting to do presentations but this actually, Actually developed, like, later during my like master's degree when I was studying and we obviously had to do presentations, like my Master's was a business in

entrepreneurship. Yeah. And we had to do presentations like business plans and things like that and they never wanted to do any presentations, but I knew that in the future and it sounds super cliche in the future. I did want to have like my own company, right? So if I would be shy like what do I need to work on? It's a really hone that skill in communication. Effective communication

storytelling. So at the end when I started doing that I started kind of like going kind of more to kind of presentation skills classes and they think because of my sales job because I started during my Master's Degree working in sales part time I had to be more kind of like I like extroverted because I'm like more of an introvert. Yeah. But because of being in sales, Do you know, you have to, you know, stop the clients, explain things. And that's where it actually

started to be honest. So, I think I was 23 24 where I, when I really started like, honing in on, going more into kind of like, you know, presenting myself and and reading a lot of books. I love reading books. Yeah, but also practicing it in real life. Well, obviously, in my, in my sales career, obviously because you need to, you know, be extroverted at least, You don't have to be extrovert to the sense like that. You like our extra. Yeah, like extra extra.

I think this is based on supposedly scientific knowledge that the the balance between introverted and extroverted those types of sales, people are kind of like the ones that really like move the needle forward, okay? If you're to extrovert or to introverted, that doesn't really work supposedly and they think I'm in the middle. Let's call it like that sweet. The sweet sweet spot. Well, that's what I consider, maybe it's not like that, right? Maybe I'm biased. So so yeah, it's it's

interesting. So for me was like really a development within my sales career but also developing myself reading a lot of books doing like courses and things like that. For me, that's super important because I definitely want to always be on my game a game if you as they call it. So yeah. It's been just a journey judge yourself, discovering self-development. It's practice as we were talking about. Yeah. And yeah just you know, moving for and always trying to do the

best that you can. I love that.

Yeah, one thing that stood out to me is you said you did a master's in intrapreneurship or cousins and Entrepreneurship. Yeah. And you already very distinctly said, I envisioned myself having my own company in a way. Yeah, I did a minor in entrepreneurship. I also said I'm going to have my own company but I haven't made that switch yet. I don't know when the right time is to switch. I don't think there's going to be a right time to switch but I still like to Envision that.

At some point, I will have my own company in that way, but you exactly, as me said, I'm going to have my own company and you do actually have your own company but you started out in sales. Yeah. Walk me through kind of the way that to the point where you actually said okay, I'm going to start my own company now yeah that's a good good question as well. So I started in sales like I said during my master's degree but that was just part time. Yeah, doing that.

And then I went into the recruitment field which is also sales obviously because you have You need to recruit people, obviously for the jobs that you have and then you need to sell those jobs to them. Exactly? Right. So started in recruitment, then went into Consulting sales and then from Consulting sales, I wanted to technology sales. So I work for companies like Oracle, I work for companies like LinkedIn and different

parts of the world as well. So, I used to, for example, live in Equatorial Guinea, which is in Africa, close to Cameroon, which was super cool, super cool. Very very, very cool experience. I used to work for LinkedIn Ireland. I studied in Spain as well. So, there's a little bit of a international type of thing. I'm from Curacao, as well, very born and raised, proud, Caribbean girl. Awesome. So yeah, it's, it's been a journey from going from.

Let's say recruitment sales to Consulting skills to technology sales, which is also consider Consulting sales in the sense. And then from there, I saw kind of like where my forte is or let's say where I like to basically push myself into with regards to having my own company because I didn't know beforehand, but I started trying certain things like I did courses and then I try to Yeah, I guess start a company like a pizza I think before doing my Master's Degree as well.

Okay, but that didn't like super go super well because like obviously if you start a company with three other people, then everybody has like their own type of like experiences and opinions. So it's obviously was like better to just do it on your own but that's just my personal opinion. Yeah so I actually started in 2018 but this was during my work. At Oracle, okay? And I started doing consulting

for smaller startups. So obviously, work Elizabeth technology company and they saw that there were like, a lot of startups, specifically, in the B2B space that really wanted to have, like, some Consulting around. Okay. How do you do sales and marketing and things like that business development? And that was something that I was good at.

So we started then and then that transitioned into, like what we have today, which is kind of soft launch Yeah, I'm doing the marketing and sales but now we're doing also the fundraising for startups the transition from going to full time. Let's say full-time work into like my own company. Yeah it just it just transpired that way because the last company that I worked for was a small start-up. Okay. And I saw that a lot of the things that I was doing there that I could basically do on my

own as well. So in 2020, I actually went full time into into the company. Into obviously my own company. It just transpired, just naturally, to be honest. Like I also in the, in the beginning, when I used to work at Oracle, I was also thinking, like, hmmm should I stop now? Okay, should I just, you know, because it was kind of a side hustle, it was side of the side, hustle. Exactly. In 2020 was like the full to the

first full-time like year. Yeah, starting the first full-time year so it just transpired that way. To be honest. Like I just felt and maybe it's kind of like an intuitive thing. Maybe some people don't believe in intuition but for me it was really important because I just felt like this is the time to really start and at that was during covid. Imagine that right? Like I had I was at this networking event and there was this lady and she was asking me like Hey listen like oh you have

your own company? Yeah and then I explained to her. Yeah. I started like full-time in 2020 and she was like that was one covid hit. Yeah. Wow. That's like, you know, it's like super awesome that you started that because a lot of People don't want to start obviously during like a pen name. The pandemic, or some type of economical? Yeah, like an extra hurdle, lots of risk in security. Exactly. Exactly.

But for some reason I just, you know, it just transpired that way and I just went into it, obviously like you have their ups and downs and as in any company. But if you have, and this is what I believe in and they think we spoke about that when you have a sales background and, you know how the cell I think that's one of the most important things. When you have your own business because you have to sell yourself, you have to sell your services or products, whatever you have.

Yeah. And if you have that background and you've done that for, you know, other companies, then you can certainly do it for your own company. So I think that's one of the things that I guess, help me. Yeah, in doing that. And yeah, it's been super interesting to tell you that leaves. It's very interesting. I've learned a lot and learned a

lot about myself. I can tell you that the on Entrepreneurship World, it expands you as a human being as in like you're definitely going to learn a lot more about yourself. A lot of more about like maybe your fears or insecurities that you need to work on if you really want to move the needle forward. Yeah, so yeah. It's just self-development route if that makes any sense. Well, that makes a lot of sense. I mean I like that it's gradual, right? It started out as kind of a side thing.

Yeah. And probably you gave it more and more attention as the years moved. Word. Correct, to a point where you were like, okay, I want to do this full-time, right? I want to be in this 100% and give it the attention, that it deserves exactly was in my mind. And also, back in the day when I said, I, when I was still at University and I wanted my own company, I thought it had to be like, a bam, and then you have it or you just going to drop everything you can start but

that's not realistic, right? That's how it's How it becomes very unsure of how your future is going to look like. And if you're actually going to make, it doesn't have to be All or Nothing. Exactly. Can I have that kind of gradual approach in there? And see if this is for you because I don't think it's for everyone as well. It's not be honest.

Like even my partner was saying like now I see like what's the effort you have to put in the time that you have to put in and it's not definitely not for everybody. I'm not saying that to scare people away or something that you do need to have kind of like that mentality as in like, okay even if there's like resistance, we're still going to find a solution. We're still going to go move forward and yeah, you definitely. Do have to have that kind of Hardcore mentality in the sense.

Yeah, but yeah it's it's if you really want it then you're going to find a way to do it. That's I guess what I wanted to, you know, convey. Yeah, I like that a lot. I mean, you mentioned you mentioned be to be specifically

business, the business and you also meant software as a service as kind of a domain that you operate in. Yeah. Why those two specifically like words, they're just a hole in the market with regards to the knowledge that you could fill. Yes. And yes. And no. So Looking at my background looking at like, what I sold, was more B2B. Yeah, so that's where I saw like, okay. Well, that's kind of like where my Niche is innocence and SAS because obviously I was working

for technology companies. Right, so I understand this as world and it's for me, it's fascinating because it's just a continuation of new innovation consistently, right, and to link it to, my Master's Degree. My Master's Degree was called And Innovation. So it's actually linked. Pretty cool. Yeah. Now that I'm actually thinking about it.

So for me SAS, was it because okay, technology for me to Super interesting, it's always developing, we're using software as a service all the time everywhere. I mean everywhere, so like in our company we're also using a lot of sass Solutions, right? So I know how. I know just the niche. Yeah, and I'm B2B was for me, interesting, because, From the perspective of okay, I have the experience in there, but it's also in front of prospective as in it. In the B2B space.

There's a lot less cherne. Okay. Regards to customers. And if you do B to C, now we do have for example clients that, you know, are a b2c company. We were mainly focused on B2B but we're seeing like an influx of b2c companies also coming. Yeah, the B2B space is a little I would say, a little bit more stable in the sense that you don't have a lot of churn because most B2B companies have longer term contracts and b2c companies. Yeah. And the ticket price.

For those services or products or higher. So if you look at for example the ticket price for b2c companies could be like 500 500 dollars. Let's say on the average revenue per unit, let's say, okay. And if you look at a B2B company, it could be thousand a

thousand dollars. Yeah. If you look at the churn rate on those like, for B2B, it's between I think and it depends on obviously the niche and things like that, but for B2B would be between let's say 22. 28 percent and then B to C would be a little bit higher, but that's because the contract values are lower for b2c most of the times and they're shorter so you can actually cancel each month. While would be to be, you do have like a yearly contract consistently.

So for me, looking at kind of like a pricing perspective and more stability, I thought. Okay. B2B is just better for me. Interesting. So so to me, that's kind of like more stability. Girl, let's see, contract value sizes longer lifetime customer value sizes are not size of a lifetime value. And those types of aspects, like really resonated with me. So, yeah, that makes a little sense. I guess, if I look at it from the point of view, of a

technical founder or technical co-founder. Yeah, let's take technical founder because I don't think if you're a technical founder, like you have all the skills or you might have all the skills, but you really have to hold them right when it comes to sales and marketing. Yeah, you could probably build a really good product, but if I look at myself, I would never know. Okay, now is the moment to sell or now is the moment to Market or now I can actually get customers.

I mean from experience, I know soon as possible, right? When is as soon as possible, how stable does it need to be? And when do I bring in a co-founder right, that can feel kind of the gaps that I have as a technical founder when it comes to sales and marketing and that can advise or even pull the car in some certain aspects. Yeah. How do people find each other when it To filling the Gap. That's a good question. So I've spoken with a lot of Founders and most of the founders they find.

Let's say they're co-founder through networking. Yeah. And sometimes they go through accelerator programs to find co-founders as well or their co-founders as well. Yeah. So that's also like, you know, kind of a route to do that. Sometimes they go actually, on, even on LinkedIn. And then they have like this job profile searching for, let's say, they need to have a co-founder for this in this

company. So there's like different ways and how they how they try to find it but mostly network network, most of the times or accelerator programs.

If there's some accelerated programs, even in the Netherlands here, that kind of like communicate that they want you to find like a co-founder, obviously, obviously reasons is if you want to go And fundraise, you know, investors want to have at least two people in their companies are running the companies because it's like, yeah, it's like, you know, the old lower-risk, right? So if you have one person and

that person falls away. Yeah. It's going to be a little bit tricky and I believe your question was also like on went to find kind of like the co-founder. Yeah. That's that's a balancing act to be honest. I think, from from my experience a co-founder is when You feel like okay you can't move forward. So let's say you're good in the technical part, right? You have maybe an MVP already built out but now how do you go to market, right? How do you start selling it may

be in that sense. You're like, okay, listen like I'm not the person that can sell. I need to find somebody that can help me sell that way. You can find. That's a your co-founder that's maybe more has more of a sales background and that could be like if you can't move forward that's always my take. If you can't move forward currently with the resources that you have, try to find the resources for yourself. So, let's say again, your technical co-founder, you've

built like the MVP. Yeah. But you don't know really how the salad or if you've tried to sell it, it didn't go really well. If you have the capabilities and sources to find a co-founder then I would definitely say at that point, definitely find a co-founder that can sell example in this case for you,

interesting, but I get it from the point of view of my Whole network, right? Because then I know people. I know people that I can trust. Yeah, we're going through an accelerator program and finding someone that I don't actually know requires a lot of trust, right? I mean, wonder who said we started the company with three people and three people have three different visions and it can Clash and you're doing it a kind of on your own with regards

to your own operation. Yeah. Which makes sense because if you want to pull the car in a certain direction, you want to make sure it's that direction, right? You have that Vision as a Founder. If your co-founder, you have to share that Vision with other people. Exactly. How do people still kind of managed to work as a team when they bring in someone else or a co-founder and build up that trust in that way to make it actually, Until the End bringing in a team?

Yeah, that's obviously, if you're like a little bit further, along the line with regards to you've already sold, you know, a few. Yeah, our to a few customers bringing in the team. It's You need to understand where the skills are that you need help with, right? So let's say, let's go with that example. Like you mentioned you have your the technical co-founder. You found your co-founder, right? Yeah. For maybe the sales and marketing for example or they have skills that you don't

possess on the other way around. Okay. Now next up let's sell the product right? Okay. How do we sell it? Are we going to, you know do first kind of like a networking thing trying to if it's in the B2B.

A space. Most of the times what happens is a lot of the founders have the same background as what where they're like, let's say the technology that they've developed developed in. Yeah, so then they go into their Network and try to sell that product or solution into their Network, to first, get there, like first customer. So B2B space. You can have. For example, if the solution would cost on a yearly basis, maybe like 10K. Yeah, you just have to have a

few customers to reach that. You know, arrrr done, 100 KR, etc, etc. So in that space, once you have a few customers on board then if you have if you see that you have a structured way of getting new customers as in the sales process. Yeah. And you see that you can't handle, let's say the leads that are coming in I think at that moment in time or at least maybe a little bit before that's where I believe.

It's best to start hiring hiring a And depending on where you are in the process, most of the time startups higher for like a product manager, just to understand like more of the product and build it a little bit more out. And then once that is done, then there's also the sales part. So sometimes you would have maybe the VP of sales, depending on which stage you are at, right? So most of the startups that we work with are early stage, B2B,

right? And when you want to build out a team, you still needs to go through those steps of The okay. We have an MVP cool. We are we selling them. Are we selling the MVP. Cool. Are we getting feedback to basically understand how can we improve on it, the early adopters, right? And then the next step is, okay, if we're selling it and we're seeing that there is an increase in sales consistently. Let's try to hire maybe a VP of sales or sales team depending on

how far you are in the process. And that's where obviously the fundraising side comes in as well because most of the startups when they have an MVP, they have some Revenue. Do they want to raise for at least proceed seed rounds? They want to raise to obviously or improve on the development but also to hire marketing and sales to really start growing if that makes any sense. So some of those terms are kind of unclear to me what is proceed and cdryden. Yeah. So presidency around that's

basically a seed round. If that makes any sense and that's most of the time and investment. Okay, for let's say early stage, Companies to, or build further their MVP or to kind of higher marketing and sales. So it's kind of like a round to get you to the next step. So, most of the times early stage startup companies, they have an MVP, they have kind of like a product that they've already developed. Yeah. But now they need some money to, you know, further kind of like

sell the product. Yeah. And in that stage, they need resources human capital, right? People that are going to sell that. For them, and that's where they can, you know, build or get proceed funding or seed funding, whatever you want to call it from investors. Mostly it's family and friends, angels, and things like that. When it comes to, let's say, Venture capitalists, that's probably, once you get to a series a round be around etcetera, that's where it starts

with what the investment round. Yeah. And series. A and B, what are those specifically? Also, when it comes to fundraising. Yeah, so the rounds are Sickly to show what the progress is within your startup. Yeah, you start with a precede round. Maybe family and friends, you know, giving you money basically to further invest in further developing your in your product and then you have a seed round, which is maybe to kind of further kind of develop the product get.

Maybe some people on board developers, sales people, Etc. And then you have a series a round.

That's basically once you really want to skill with sales and marketing really want to get to Traction which our product and solution in this case and that's kind of like it's just a round but it's basically the amount of money that's kind of like the difference within the city to proceed seed and series a although sometimes in the precede, it could be between 500 K and maybe 1.5 million 2 million series. A could be from 1 to 5 million, for example.

So it's kind of like a division in the amount of money. Yeah. Although that's not The hardcore definition, but you could see it in that way, like how, which round are you in to be invested in? If so, if that makes any sense proceed, most of the time, more development for the product seed, development and hiring a few people to kind of like, improve on the product and get like your first, let's say, customers and then series a is

really to kind of skill. So the marketing if that makes any sense just to keep it a little bit simple. Yeah. They're they're different brackets. And I'm assuming that if you just started you have an MVP. You're not looking to have 5 million to blow it up, right? You're going to do that gradually as well? Exactly. Exactly. Although some some some Founders do sure you exceptions and I got like 5 million from, you know, from the start. But no, it's mostly like a

smaller smaller. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I have two things but let's let's start with the initial product still because yeah, from the point of view of

a technical co-founder, I've seen a lot of startups or at least within my network. They just keep building this product, right? Keep building this product, especially in the B2B Market because they think it needs to be established before business can actually adopt it. Yeah. And they just keep building in the never actually start selling or marketing, what they have. Yeah. Have you seen that as well? And kind of your inner circles. Yeah, 100%.

Like I would say like around 80 to 90 percent of the farmers that we speak with. They always say like, hey, you know, we've developed a product, it's amazing. It's going to take over the world, we're perfecting it and then one that's perfect. Then we And to go to market, right? I hate to burst of course, but just to be very like Frank and honest to them, it's like this. And you do have a good product if it's a good product, of

course. Yeah. You need to start selling it as soon as possible. It doesn't need to be perfect, right? It doesn't need to be perfect. Like, for example, Steve Fox Mulder's, he's the founder of expanding its like a LinkedIn automation tool and he mentioned in his Keynote that they started with just a few. Let's say customers like early adopters but the solution was very buggy. That's what he said. The solution was very buggy.

Okay? Had a lot of bugs but the thing that that made them different from. Let's say all these other LinkedIn automation tools is that they focused on safety because if you're using LinkedIn automation tools you can get banned, right? Yeah. And that's what a lot of people don't want because some people want to Obviously connect with other people on LinkedIn and then sell their solution, right? So it's basically a lead generation tool so he understood

that listen it's not perfect. We're going to focus on the safety. That's kind of like a good marketing you know, thing to do and he got early adopters and those early adopters gave him feedback giving feedback and they consistently improved improved improved and then they bootstrap their whole company. To, I don't know how much, how much, how many millions it was within like, a few years. Yeah. So the thing is, when you have a solution and it's, you know, it's not perfect.

Just go to market as quick as you can get, let's say your early adopters, get feedback improve consistently on it, make sure that you know, the adoption of your solution to let's say your users is also very easy because if those users don't adopt it, then obviously you're going Going to have a lot of churn and obviously, if you have a lot of churn, you know what, the next steps are going to be. So if you have an MVP go to market, as quick as possible, test it out, get user feedback,

get it sold, and then improve consistently from there. Yeah. Why what do you think that is? Because if I'm looking at a physical product, right?

If I'm, I found make a puzzle, and the puzzle doesn't actually work. It has bugs. Yeah. Then people going to be, like, never buy this product never again. Yeah. Because it's all for you can kind of update on the Fly. The thing. That's very unique in this market. Specifically when it comes to software that you can go to market with kind of bugs in there and that you can fix them as soon as soon as you have the feedback, I guess.

Yeah, I do think so. To be honest because it's If you get feedback as soon as possible, you can fix it in. Let's say maybe an hour, right and then you can again go to that. Same customer say like, Hey listen, we fixed the bug. This is how it's, you know, you can use it now. What do you think about it?

So yeah, I do think it's Unique to to the SAS World specifically and I think it's pretty cool as well because at the end of the day, if you're like, if you're a founder and you're honest about like your your tool. Yeah. And you do know that there's some bugs. And, and people know this, when it's a new tool, there's always going to be some bugs. But if you have a good story around like, who you are, what you're trying to achieve, right? What's your mission? What's your vision?

People are going to be like, listen. This is pretty cool. Like, I would like to buy your product understood as understanding that this buggy so probably you're going to have a lower price then if it's like right Paris, ma'am. Exactly. You have to be a reasonable person, I think I think em and then getting feedback from them and then you're going to Create a bond with your customers as well, right?

Because if you, if you increase or not increase, if you consistently improve on your tools and your giving feedback and that feedback has been implemented and you're letting your customers use it again. And then they're seeing consistent, let's say growth and consistent Improvement. They're going to feel like, Hey, listen, this is pretty cool.

Like, I have a bond with let's say I have a bond with you Patrick because you have a tool and you're consistently improving on it. And you're listening to us as consumers or customers, and we're seeing that it's consistently growing. So definitely we want to be part of your family. If that makes any sense, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. People feel heard, right? And yeah, I like that.

It's trending towards, okay. We don't, we're not just looking at products and that's it. We also look at the people behind it. The story behind it is, openness and transparency, and we want to feel heard as consumers, right? Exactly matter. If it's B2B, or b2c, what I'm thinking is from a B2B point of view.

Do people adopt software, even though it's buggy as well or do they wait until it's a bit more established because if I have a business, and it's hypothetically, hopefully in the future, but I would hopefully, only from my point of view, it

makes sense to adopt software when it's a bit establish. When other companies are using it, when I know it works because other people see that it works. Yeah. But to get actually to a phase where people are using it and seeing that others are using it and seeing that it works. You have to be able to get your first customers. Yeah. What's the biggest hurdle in kind of In your first customers, when you have software, that's an MVP. But that still you acknowledge

that has some bugs. Yeah, to be honest, like with the B2B side it is, I would say if you're at like 70 percent or 70 to 80% of your tool or solution, being like perfect, that's that's fine. Yeah, I wouldn't personally go. And that's also what I'm seeing with the fountains I personally wouldn't go with like, a 40 50 percent.

Let's say, oh, it's on. Almost kind of like, you know, perfect, 50% I wouldn't do that when you're like 70, 80 % of the, to, obviously there's 20% that could be, you know, yeah, a little bit buggy. That's where I would go to market with that. Okay? That, but that's my personal opinion, seeing looking at, like, say the founders that we've worked with and then also looking at, you know, people in the industry. Yeah. And that 50, you could do that in the be to see Market more easily.

Would you say then? I do think so because the thing is, it Little bit tricky, right? It's so so if you are in a be to see Market, if you're authentic you have a good story, you have a mission and vision that people are, you know, resonating with. Hmm, I think if you have a tool that's like 50 percent, let's say perfect, but there's still some bugs, I stay.

I think you can still, you know? Hmm, I think you can still move forward because I Leave that if you're kind of like in that lot a family kind of like group, you're still going to have people saying like okay no worries, I'm gonna help you. Sorry. No worries. I had something like really. I still I'm still gonna help you reach the goals that you have in mind. Yeah. And then it's fine at least as long as you give me feedback, help you move forward.

That's the thing when I do think that would be to see it's a little bit different because it's again, it's still consumers. You're not maybe dealing with like companies because obviously companies are in the different kind of level. But yeah you want to just create That experience of like okay listen you're still some bugs but give us feedback, we're going to improve on this, we're going to, you know, make sure that you have this as well in place a good customer, you know, Service as well.

So I think it's just a little bit different in that sense. Yeah, interesting, yeah, I'm assuming that if you fail to

kind of incorporate the feedback and take care of your users and their needs once you have a product, right? If you just ignore the feedback side and are like I'm working on this last 30% instead. Yeah then people are going to be like okay this guy doesn't listen to us at this girl doesn't Listen to us like they're just gonna lose you or you're going to lose them. Basically exactly. Is that one of the common pitfalls that you see when business is actually don't make it as well.

It's that because obviously the churn is, you know, higher. It's also, it's also understanding if your solution has product Market fit, right? So product Market fit, meaning do your consumers or let's say customers or clients really want to buy this solution. Is it really like a pain point in the market? Yeah, because a lot of technical Founders, what they do is they develop a solution that they think is, you know, useful in the market. Yeah. Again, falling in love with your

own idea, right? Which is fine, but you also need to have external feedback. Yeah. Meaning. Okay. You have built a solution. Is this really a need in the market and then getting, let's say customer feedback and And if there is customer feedback and there are there's a match between your solution and what people want and people are willing to pay for it. That's where you got product-market fit in the sense of it needs to be consistent.

Flow of people really wanting to pay for your, for your solution, right? Yeah. So product Market fit if there's no product Market fit, that's one of the things where, you know, a company can basically go down. Yeah.

Churn is also one of the things. So, obviously, if let's say you're, you don't have a good solution and you're not consistently, you know, listen are listening to the feedback, implementing it may be your customer service, or at least like people that are helping you to get customer feedback, maybe they're very slow. Or, you know, you're really not like really quick on, on the money or quick on the ball.

Yeah, that's where. Also, you could lose a lot of customers and then you've invested so much money in your solution. Ocean right. Yeah, without really getting something out of it, if that makes any sense. So those are the primary two things that I do feel that we're yeah, approximately like 80 90 percent of startups fail and that's what they say in the first five years. Right? So it's it's challenging. Yeah, that's a harsh one,

especially like, if I look at a I'm a guy that create software I falling in love with your own ideas or your own products. I guess it can be a harsh one. Yeah. Have you ever had to have that conversation? Like I'm a Seen your the objective party in this part, you can just be like, listen consumers don't want this or businesses. Don't actually see this problem that you've solved, which means they're not going to adopt your

product, right? Which means you either need to Pivot, or you need to, at least let go of this. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I've had those conversations. The thing is with Founders, it's you most of the times have to show them, right? So I can have, I'm not going to put like my biased opinion in that I first Look at what the data is saying.

So if we have a solution, if a Founder comes to me and asked me, hey Denise, we want to market the solution, I can have like my biased opinion, which I'm not obviously going to to tell ya. Not at that moment, because I first want to see how the market is, you know, adopting to the solution, right? Yeah. If we're seeing and depending on how you Market the solution as well, if we're seeing that over the, over the course of a few months, we're not really getting some good traction done.

I need to go back to the data and see like, okay listen. How many people have like signed up depending on if it's a B2B or b2c, how many clients have signed up, how are they using it? How long are they using it? Mostly in the B2B Market? What we're seeing is, it's pretty, pretty straightforward. Like they have a year contract yearly contract, its dissolution. Most of the time the solution is already basically built and they do see kind of like that. There is a gap in the market.

But when it comes to be to see, that's always kind, Of like a little bit of a tricky, tricky one. Yeah. So what we're trying to do then is basically show the founders like the data, right? Because we can say like, Hey, listen, Patrick, I don't think like, your your solution is going to work in the market. Yeah, obviously, that's one opinion. It's not opinion, right? And it's, and it's not something

that they want to hear, right? So, how do we basically show what data if it's working or not? We go and look at, okay? You've done these campaigns, for example. How has it been going? How many people have you know, subscribed where how many people are many customers? Have you gotten within this period of time? And that's where you can show. Like listen, maybe we need to or pivot to, you know, show the marketing campaigns in a different way.

As in like show the angle of what your solution can do in a different way. Yeah maybe we need to look at what the who the customer profile is. Maybe we need to change that. At. So there's many different factors in there but at the end of the day if you've tested it out let's say for I'm giving an example for a year or whatsoever. Yeah. And you're seeing you're still seeing that. There's not real traction. That's where, you know, you can show that.

Hey listen. We've done all of these things. It's not really working out. Yeah, maybe it could be the solution, maybe it's kind of something that's a nice to have instead of a must-have. So for example, when I used to work at Oracle Of obviously Oracle has different types of solutions, right? So one of the solutions, I'm not going to name any names but one of the solutions was a nice to have and the other solution was a must have, right?

The must have solution, always sold a lot more than the nice to have solution, right? Because it's a problem in the market, it's you have a solution. This is the problem, this is how you can solve it. Yes, the nice to have solution is It's optional, so it's difficult. It's more difficult to sell, right? So that's the same thing with product Market, fit. Find that with a solution that you develop understanding. Is there like a real need?

Is there like a real problem? And are you the one that can solve it? Yeah. Interesting. Because there's a lot that goes into there and I kind of underestimated initially because if you talk about a product and you want to be objective about this product, right the way you sell it to people, let's say the product is the gift, right? Your gift, wrapping and everything. Around is your marketing, basically, and then who you giving it to are, your consumers

are your clients? Yeah, so you can either pivot on. Okay. Who are we actually targeting, right? Who are we giving this gift to exact and then we can look at the gift wrapping and everything around it, right? Everything the picture needs to be picture-perfect exact, and once you've solidified that then, if you have the right person, they unwrapped this gift, and it's still not what

they want. Yeah. Then we have to, we have to Pivot basically because then the essence of what you're selling is not right. Or it's not a problem or it's not a problem yet that could also be the case. Yeah, but at least it's clear then that you have to, you have a problem on your own hands and yeah, I'd have to Pivot. Yeah. Or you can very stubbornly say, no, no, we're going to keep doing this but usually that's when it then Burns to the ground

on the so yeah. Yeah. And again, like I can understand like if you're a Founder, you're super passionate about the solution. You have to be, you have to be. Well, that's, that's like you're selling point if that makes any sense. But I also think it's important to be kind of I would say balanced in a sense to not be super in love with your. Let's say own baby in. Let me say, all right, we're on

baby, right? And but just also understand that maybe you do need, you know, external feedback to really see if this is really something that can work. Yeah. Right. Someone with no skin in the game, with no skin in the game and which could be in your ICP right and your customer profile in your like Avatar. Like the person that you're, you're targeting. If that makes any sense. Your target audience. So, yeah, I that's what I would like. Suggest the founders especially

technical. Founders is the in love with your baby. That's, that's fine. But also have this balance in understanding that maybe your baby is not kind of like a must-have in the market. Yeah, maybe it's a nice to have, but first gets data to really show if that's You know, if it's a really must have or a nice to have and if you can really, you know, sell it and things like that. So yeah, yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, there's going to be a lot of sunken cost within that baby, right? But the fact that you already got this far right? You already created a product and you figured out you were solving a problem and it turned out you were not solving the right problem. Yeah, either you're going to take your learnings with you and you're going to create a new

babies. I guess I'm sticking with the same same metaphor there, but it does allow you to grow from their rights, not a failure necessarily. Because you can pivot, you can move on, you can do something else. You can get just as far in if that is, then a hit then you move on to the scaling part and see how this thing can grow. Exactly now, exactly what people

do, find the right model product Market fit and they want to scale their organization, right? If it's are in co-founders. If it's higher again, team or if it's actually selling in marketing, their product, as big as they can, blow it up, what are than the the things that you've seen that make it succeed and the pitfalls there that make it fill in at the end as well. Yeah. So once you have a good solution, people are you know, excited or at least they're

buying the solution, right? Yeah once you're seeing that let's say you have a small team and you can't handle. Let's say the leads that are coming into really close them. I think the next phase is to, you know, scale up with a team. So most of the times startups done wants to hire sales and marketing also the time seals because they they Leave that. Okay, they have leads. They now need to close them.

Now, some startups. They only have the sales part and they don't really have the marketing part or they hired a marketing afterwards. I think that the marketing is very important. Because if you do right marketing, it's going to be easier for your sales team to close those deals because you've already kind of warmed the the leads up. Yeah, you set them up for Success. Exactly. And then, and then just the salespeople needs to close them.

Most of the times when you hire salespeople, Need to do the marketing as well. So you have obviously your be DRS and then you have your AA. He's like I was in a e for example, what does that mean eight account executive? That that basically means like you are the one that closes the deals the DDR like the business development or rap. That's the person that you know creates the lead.

So they would do cold calling or cold Outreach on email and whatsoever basically to set up the meeting and then go through let's say the first conversation with the with the Prospect. And if that Prospect is warm and, you know, considering maybe potentially wanting to have a solution like what you're selling, then it would come to the next step, which was me, the AE that would go through, let's say the demos and and the things

like that to close the deals. Now, the demos could be done by a technical person as well and sometimes you can do the demos yourself depending on what type of solution you have and what type of company you're working at. Yeah, so to answer your question. So most of the time The skill with a sales team.

Sometimes they would have Marketing in place as well, but then after the sales team, I think you need to have some type of marketing done for you, really hire a sales team, because again, if you do the marketing, well prospects are more warm to come onto the calls and then you can close them better. And obviously, you're going to have like the VP of sales, you're probably going to have a

VP of Lucian engineer. So solution, Engineers, or depending on how tech tech tech e Your solution is you have solution Engineers that are going to do the demos. So the demos are going to be more focused on the technical aspect. And then, for example, the aesa sales people would just do the storytelling around like what's, you know, the solution can do understand how to sell it. And that's basically how you work together with your Solutions engineer and you and myself as an AE.

Yeah. So those are like the First, let's see people that you would hire. So, VP of sales, VP Mayor's Office Solution, engineering marketing. I think most of now, more startups are trying to hire like, more in the marketing because they're seeing that sales and marketing or working together. Yeah. Before like startups would think like oh yeah, but we only need skills and we don't need marketing. You just need to have them both and they need to be both working

together. It shouldn't be siloed exceptionally, and I've seen that a quiet In a lot of companies that it's quite siloed. So marketing is doing their things. So, this is doing their thing instead of like really working together. Yeah, so yeah, those are kind of like the first people that I've seen that are hired. Interesting. Can you can also scale too fast in a way. Yeah, you can also scale too

fast. Most of the, most of the company, I wanted to name, certain names, but I'm not, but I've seen companies that Most of the times they hire a lot of salespeople in the beginning, obviously, because if they got, let's say funded VC funded. For example, they've gotten so many millions. They can obviously higher like sales teams and things like that. Sometimes you can scale to fasten a sense of you've hired, a lot of salespeople. And maybe it, maybe it's not the

scaling too fast. Maybe it's more of like you've hired a lot of salespeople, but you're seeing that the progression that you're making with regards to selling the solution is not up to par with what you predicted. So then you have like a whole lot of salespeople and that happens a lot in startups. A lot of startups that they've hired a lot of salespeople, but the progress, the the projection of like, you know, getting to the seals Matrix. Yeah. It's not there.

So then what happens is, you're going to want to lay off. A lot of salespeople, that's what happened with. I'm not going to name the name, but it's an online Supermarket. Okay. So hiring a lot of people in there because they believe in the, in the vision they have, you know, they got funded. Now, they can hire so many people, but then they hired a lot of people. And then, again, the projections are not there, where they wanted to be, so then they have the skill down.

Yeah, and that's what a lot of startups to do. With as well after like their series 8 or series being things like that. So just think. Yeah, I like that. You mentioned that the reason

why you should scale up is when you can't handle the load anymore, right? If you're selling things and you're seeing, okay, we actually have a lot of customers or a lot of potential customers, but we only have one person and they can't do Outreach to this amount of customers. Then it makes sense to add another person. Yeah. But adding people just because you think adding a person is going to add 100 of customers, that's not how it works, right? That's not how it works in the

real world. If there's not actually actually a hundred customers or if there's only a multitude of customers then adding people is not going to speed up the thing. Exactly. And that's for me, I mean logically speaking and logically thinking about it. I if you would hire, then hired just right before you think that it's going to really kind of blow up, which is difficult to

assess, right? Still a hard thing, still a hard thing but if you're really seeing that that one salesperson can't handle it anymore like you mentioned definitely you know start hiring and it's consistent. Isn't be hiring. I know that. Like a lot of Founders want to consistently higher or at least have people in their Network that they can hire whenever they need the person in charge, which is fine. But I don't believe in hiring just to hire.

Because you think you're going to be at a certain, let's say ARR range, annual recurring Revenue range and you need these amount of people to you know, get to that Revenue. There's so many factors that can you know it. So many factors which is going to be hard for Founder's to understand to really close deals. Because first, if you're going to hire a sales person, do they have the experience? They like, how many years of experience have they had in closing deals?

Right? Can they what's the, the learning progression for them? Right? What's the ramp-up period for them? Within sales? Specifically B2B? It's kind of like six months, okay, as an AE to really ramp up, sometimes it could be shorter. The shorter, the better because that, that means that you can basically understand the solution and you can sell it right. If it's a very technical solution, maybe it's going to take a little bit longer, they usually say six to nine months, okay?

But again, in my my experience less than six months, you can definitely make it worth to really sell. B2B make sense if it's not too technical. So there's a lot of aspects when hiring as well, like, what's the, you know, type of sales person or the here? You're going to hire. What has their experience be has their experience bin before Reich. Have these Souls similar type of Technologies before or have they sold something different? Yeah.

And how have they sold it? Have they gotten inbound leads or are they really the one that goes out into, you know, the field and really gets, you know, New Opportunities? And there's so many factors to take into account when it comes to hiring a sales team as well. So yeah, it's a difficult thing, so difficult and there's a lot of of moving parts. And it's a lot of hats to wear as well, and of course, like you don't have to wear all the hats, when you have, you know, people

in the team. But I do think that you need to take into account that Even the people that you hire, they don't know everything. Right. So maybe there's still some gaps there that, you know, you can maybe help to fill. Exactly. I like to have right, not in-depth knowledge of a lot of things, but enough knowledge to challenge people that are responsible for those things, right?

Whether it's your VP of sales and we're hiring something new or someone new and they do a lot of sales, but marketing has already set them up or they actually go out to customers and get them that way or that can be a big difference. Yeah and challenging those decisions on weathering hiring. This person versus that person's the right deal. I like to be able to be the person that challenges, the people that are actually responsible for doing so.

Yeah. But you need to have enough background knowledge, to actually make sense and be able to challenge you the way as well. Yeah, but it comes to the when it comes to funding.

So this is gonna be funny because my only funding knowledge I've gained through Shark Tank. Yeah. Well people come in and they pitch and they do whatever. Yeah. Is that actually how it works in the real world as well? Like is your pitch to a customer kind of the same how it is too. The people that you want funding from or how much does it differ? It's different because when it comes to investors, they want to see. They want to get their return on

investment back. Yeah, it's so Financial links or 20x after like five to ten years they really want to see if you for example when it comes to a solution that you're selling and what type of Market are you selling what's your total addressable Market your time right in the investor World they look at Tom samsom to Lord rested bull market serviceable addressable Market. Stand there and serviceable attainable market and all of these three aspects need to be

in line with, you know the the how huge is the market like how you just the market opportunity if that makes any sense, right? And depending if you're in like a precede or a seed, or a series a that's kind of like my forte. I am not about to series B and and things like that but if you want to sell to an investor you need to sell obviously the opportunity. Yeah you need to solve. It's kind of selling the dream but obviously with your feet on the ground, right?

That's not kind of like blowing it wishy-washy. Yeah, exactly. Be realistic. But do sell their dream and do see, like, do sell like what the opportunity would be for them with regards to? How are they going to get, you know, their their investment 10x 20x back after X amount of years, right? And it's really understanding if you have a good team, right? They all like a lot of investors actually, almost all Investors, look at the team. Like what experience do you have

in the team? Who are the people that are in your team? Have they done other let's say, have they already started other startup successfully and maybe exited successfully those types of, let's say Founders are the ones that are easier to, you know, invest in because they have a track record. If you don't have a track record, then obviously it's going to be a little bit more challenging but you can still, you know, get investment. So when it So that the team is important.

What's, you know, the I would say the construct of the team who was in the team, what's their background, have they done anything similar to to what they're, you know doing now? How big is the opportunity? Like in if it's a worldwide let's say solution or a solution that's obviously sad. That could be worldwide. How big is the temps? I'm some. Those are like the two, the two

parts. And that are really important for for investors to to understand, and obviously they're going to do their due diligence, right? Like how many customers obviously traction is one of the things as well. So traction, meaning okay. How many customers do you have on board or our clients, whatever you want to call it? How many customers do you have on board? How quick are you growing where? For example, working together with a PE firms listed as a private Equity Firm? Yeah.

And they are interested. In and startups with obviously a technical technology technology as the center of their their company. Yeah, for them. It's important for to look at the team. The the who the team is, how many people are in the team? What their background is at cetera. Yeah. But they also want to see that, you know, they have traction, which is around like 40 50 km are are so monthly, recurring Revenue? Yeah, obviously need to be based in Europe.

And this case because we have firms in the u.s. that obviously are focused on the US. And for them, it's also interesting or interesting. It's important to see like how quick are they growing and how are they with their finances? Like are they a company that's really spending just for spending sake because you do have startups and I've seen quite a few of them that are spending the obviously the money that they got from your investment in things that are maybe not necessary. Okay?

So Clean are you with your finances if that makes any sense? And that's one of the things that you know they look at as well. Like how are you spending it? Are you very like diligent with your finances? Yeah. Or are you spending it on? I don't know random stuff. That's that are not necessary. Obviously it's on the case to case basis but those are kind of like the prerequisites for them to want to invest. What's a, what's an example of

that of people spending things, which they shouldn't spend money on clothes that I don't really have an idea with that. Yeah. So Some startups, what they would spend it on is, for example, once you get funding, depending on where you are. But let's say it's a seed or a series, a most of that money is to, you know, hire people etc, etc. Maybe have an office things like that, but sometimes you do have startups that start spending on.

Oh, let's go on a, I want to say like a holiday but it would be kind of like a retreat for, let's say all the employees which Fine. Yeah, which is fine but is it really necessary? Right? Is that necessary? Or you have maybe you go out on to dinner with. Let's say all of your employees

is that really necessary? Maybe once in a quarter that could be but it's kind of spending on things that are maybe not completely necessary at that moment in time and those are the types of things that, you know, you could spend your money on instead of spending it on. Okay, we need to hire people. We need to, you know, develop the technology more, we need to maybe have customer customer service representative customer service people on board as well.

Yeah, our customer success for example, like like really spending it on the necessary things instead of spending it on. Okay. We're going to, you know, do a retreat there or we're gonna like have dinner there, or things like that. If that makes any sense. Yeah, it needs to be needs to be justifiable, I guess. Yeah, right, your dinner can be for team bonding, but if it's every week, then it's kind of exactly entering exactly exactly. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I get it.

Now from an investment point of view, they want to see how they get their money back, right? And how you spend your money from a business side, right? You can have huge amounts of Revenue, but if you spend a lot on marketing and advertising and stuff like that, then you're burning your money. And obviously, your revenue is going to be bigger, but your profit share that this going to be still marginal, right? You have an increased that based on.

Yeah, spend basically. Yeah. And I think, from an investment point of view, they're going to look at all of that and At some point they're going to make a decision, right? And I think both the financial thing is one thing, but you and your team, I love that. You laid that out you and your team and also going to make the difference. Yeah.

How important is that pitch? And the story behind it like that moment that you speak to the investors? Yeah and then also do the founders, usually do that the co-founders or do they leave it to someone in their team? That's best at know. The founders do that. Yeah. Right percent Founders, the storytelling around. That is very important because at the end of the day, if you see Sell yourself or you sell your solution or you sell your company, there needs to be a

logical story around it, right? Like how did you start and what's kind of like your vision, So that obviously is very important and it resonates with even if I would tell you a story, it resonates more than if I would tell you factual stuff, right? Okay. Like I don't know, 20% of something is you know, it's kind of like you need to have that story around it because that's also what sells right? So that's important.

To understand the lot of Founders, find it challenging to to, they can't tell the story around it. But how do you pitch it in a sense that it's also interesting for the investor, right? That's how that's what we teach as well. What do you need to say? And how can you basically tell your story but then also pull in like the factual numbers, what? You're, you know, currently at? Yeah. And how do you follow up with

the investors as well? Right, because it's nice to have like your first conversation but How do you follow up? That's where a lot of Founders also are like, okay, what do I do? What's the next step? What's the next step, right? Are you closing that investor in having a follow-up meeting? Maybe with the team and things like that? Again, that's what we teach as well. But yeah, it's it's, it's very important to understand what goes on in the mind of an investor. What are they looking at?

And what do they find important? And if, you know, those aspects. So Mentioned, if it's important to show some traction, depending on where you are in your, in your, let's say, process or where you are in your growth phase, do you have some traction, okay, what's the traction? What's the solution? What's the time?

Some some who's the team? Those are kind of like the most important aspects and there's obviously more more stuff around that, but those types of things and do they see potential value in that? Do they see the value of your solution? Because you have investors that Not have the background in, let's say, if you would come to me and I'm an investor, right? And you're telling me, hey Denise, I have a solution, is a solution that does a low code.

There's a local no codes type of solution, right? And you come to me and you basically tell me the story around it and you show me the time. Some, but I don't have any experience with low code, no codes. Yeah, right. So you're coming to an investor that doesn't have that experience. Then the Have that background so they're not going to completely maybe understand the I guess the problem in the market right? So you have you have a Founders that go to kind of like the wrong investors.

I would say like maybe that are not in their in their field and then they're obviously not gonna you know get to the next step as in like maybe get in a meeting with like the team and seeing if they can you know, really invest in that company because they don't see the value of that. But if I would be an Faster. That understands local because I have invested in that before. Yeah. Then obviously once you sell it

to me I can see like Hey listen. Is this something that I really want to go in go in to do I have other companies similar to yours because sometimes investors can't invest in similar types of companies as well. Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot of factors in that that makes any sense so but that's where we come in and help the founders to get to the next level. So yeah, it's very I mean, it hits home with shark tank for me because that's kind of how I've seen.

Net, where people say, okay, this is already in my domain, I can invest in you, like I wish you the best, but through that non-compete, I can't do that. Yeah, another people that just don't resonate with either the product to the idea that they don't see the problem. You're solving exact even though you have customers. And even though you have traction, right? If from an Investor's point of view, they still have their gut feeling and their own kind of

Vision on how the world works. Yeah. And if they don't align with that, if you haven't communicated it, or told your story in a way that they believe you, they can still be like white. I don't see like, I'm sorry, right? It's not gonna it's not going to be a fit, but if you do have a person that understands your domain sees the problem that you see and can see how they get their money back, right? With with an ex multiplier exact.

Then I think you have your match and then you can move move forward with that. Exactly.

And that's, that's the thing having a right match with investors because it's as a Founder, you obviously want to have as many opportunities as you can with regards, to getting like investors interested in your let's say solution or interested in investing that, but it's also important for you as The farmer to understand what type of investor do you want to have right to do, you want to have an investor that gives smart money? That's what they call it.

So, not only the money but they have maybe the network that's in that same field, right? Or they have the background. That's in that same field and they can really help grow the company to the next level. If that makes any sense. So, not only, you know, investing the money, and that's it. And that's, it ain't exactly sense. It should be a win-win, right? If I put my money in there, I have skin in the game. So the better. You do the better, I II.

Also get a return for it. Exactly, exactly, man.

There's a lot that goes into it. Like, I always kind of knew, but I never actually have had a conversation with this, like all the information of how was always superficial. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing. Just okay. How do you get your team together? How do you find that product Market fit? And when it comes to investing, how do you find the right match, their right. How big is your Market size and do people see a return on their

money? Yeah. And when you have that match should be win-win in the end as well. Under percent is there.

Thing in there that you still would like to add, I would like to add that just be smart with regards to when it comes to, let's say finding your investor or it could be a, you have one lead as an investor and then you have different other companies that are also investing in that same solution try to find the investor that obviously resonates with you and understands your business as well.

Yeah, but understand also Before you go into that, that there's a lot of things that you need to have in place, to make sure that even the first meeting. And then the second meeting and Etc is done very well. So understand those, those moving parts and get help if you need like, you know, that's that's what we do. Like, with regards to having a fundraiser partner. That's what we help with, with regards to doing, you know, going to a seed or series a

understanding. Like, what does it really take? For you to get to, to the Nexus of and get get funding. So yeah, yeah, I think I would need help or at least I would have to have a lot of conversations to get that. Understanding I can find the right help in there as well. Yeah. But I love that. You've kind of found your niche in in helping those companies. I think is really cool. Thank you like I'm super happy and doing it. Right.

So for me it's kind of like I never thought that technology would be my thing like 10 years ago. I would have thought about this. Yeah but yeah, it's again like I said in the beginning, it just trends. Fashioned into it into your me, having a company in, you know, the SAS face in technology. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. I love hearing that. We're going to round it off here. The knees Edwards. Everyone, I'm gonna put all her socials in the description below. Check her out.

Let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thanks for listening. We'll see you on the next one.