Rememberable Presentations and Personal Branding with Sabine Wojcieszak

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio and if you're interested in giving effective presentations that people will remember employee branding and how organizations can help them facilitate with that. Then this episode is for you. Joining me today is Sabina was shocked. She helps people create their own future when it comes to their career. And she loves yoga, I'll put all her socials in the description below. Check her out. And with that being said, enjoy the episode.

You me discussed beforehand because I do an intro chat with

everyone more. So, how the importance of visibility or even employee branding because those kind of are intertwined is gaining more importance. When it comes to people in an organization right when it comes to actual personal fulfillment, and it's a company, you would more. So see that in people doing more, so, out of their own, like day-to-day thing and working on their employee branding, posting more being more visible on Twitter or LinkedIn, going more to meetups and doing more.

Oz. Why has that shift all of a sudden? Because I feel like it kind of was not overnight, but kind of was, it's more and more being important within an organization that's getting more traction and even organizations are getting or giving more attention to that. Why do you think that happened? Okay. So, There were always people in companies who were very visible. Yeah. So, because they were extroverts and they were good networkers and know where they should promote themselves for being

seen in the company. And then being promoted in the next round. Something like this. Yeah. But we have you to diversity. We have also a lot of introverts and companies now, and introverts are just another kind of Personality. Yeah, but they are also very good performers. They now have the chance via social media or blocks to write down content, getting visibility that without being the one. Hey I'm here. So look at me and Those meetings. I think this is a good way.

We have a new way, how people can be visible and also the conference thing is We have people and companies. They are maybe not those people and meetings which are like I'm the first one who wants to say anything, but they are good and presenting. Yeah, they can use this different ways and I think this is an important thing. We have different new to do to social media, the whole internet

stuff, writing blocks. We have a lot of lot of more ways, how to be visible and Yeah, times getting faster and faster, and faster. So my question is always, how much time does a manager spend on selecting someone to be promoted? Yeah. And being having a good network, is a good thing for promotion and with more visibility. Your network network will grow. Yeah. No matter which kind of visibility you have is the visibility because I'm performing in meetings. Or is it the visibility?

Because I'm writing blogs for the company or I'm on social media, or I have a very good GitHub, something like this. Yeah. Yeah. And also, when you at one point decide to leave a company, It's also good to be visible. Yeah, you take that with you. Yeah. And I see another very big Advantage, what some companies do underestimate? Because when you are for Xavier on a conference, you are not only there because of yourself and you're not promoting yourself. Yeah, you're also promoting your

company. And this is much better than all the advertisements because it gives Personality. Yeah. And this is what people like they want to to see the people were in the company. And so I think, yeah, it's good for each employee employee, but also for the company for the out side. I like that. It's interesting that you say we

would like to have a face, like, on a brand or in a company because I've talked to a lot of startup people and they were like a I pick up the phone, the people know me, right? Because it's a start-up is usually still small enough for them to have a face or a voice behind it. And the people the person that does that usually is the founder. But I've never looked at it that a company can have multiple phases or multiple fronts in

front of that. If you do go to a conference, you are kind of the face of that company or people will recognize the company or build that relationship between you two. And I've never realized that, it can have multiple phases or multiple people standing in front of that, which is Is really nice. Yep. So you will never have the same audience anyway so yeah exactly. I've recently been to the conference and there was a speaker of a very well-known worldwide Tech, leader company.

Mmm. Oh, and this guy gave a presentation. It was so bad, really, really? So and you can imagine two weeks later. Yeah. No one will remember his name. Exactly. But they were remember the company. Yeah. In a bad way in the bad way. That's a shame. Yeah. And you have the same. If it's very good talk, then they will also remember the person. Yeah, but also the company.

Yeah, I know, I know you do a lot with conferences, as well as kind of speaker coaching sessions, if you Analyze. That session. What was it? Was it like, I mean, it's hard to say it, someone authenticity or personality? Or was it more the presentation style? Or was it even like the preparedness or in this case? It was a preparedness. Yeah. So they came and did they look flustered on stage that like things like? Oh, I think I have to rework this slide. Something like this. Yeah.

So, is it okay? Yes, in Russian, and this is your presentation, you should probably know what's coming up next. Yeah, so let's have a look. What's next at? This is not the way how it should work exactly. That feels more like a freestyle kind of gone. So it's like, I'm just another number. This conference is just a number not another number on the list and the Is taking time to be

there and sitting. There they are spending time on listening to him, and I think we need to be respectful with this. I agree. Yeah. Did have you seen that happening often? Yeah, really. Yeah, because I wouldn't expect that to happen. Often. I have seen that often. Okay. Is it? Because I'm gonna look at myself

first. I like to have a lot of stuff prepared, but then also, to some degree, allow myself to kind of freestyle, the things I say, So, I prepare kind of my structure in and of its own, I'm still pretty playing around with how much is too much, kind of preparation. And then the things I'm saying they might be out of order. Obviously still in accordance with my slides, or I might even skip some things depending on how much I have on my slides

here and there. And if I just roll with it, the audience won't matter because still my main storyline would be intact in that way. Yeah, if I do that. Well enough, it's not going to seem like I'm flustered and I'm going to be prepared enough for the story to still makes. Sense. And I'd like that as my preference. I know other people like to be prepared to the T, which also then has its own trade-offs.

But you think it's due to do with a certain amount of style, or is it really just unpreparedness because they want to fill a quota when it comes to standing on stage and stuff like that? Yeah I think it's really unpreparedness. So as you all we always have to have in mind. There are two Perspectives on

the presentation. The one is the audience. Yeah, they just see and hear what you are delivering. The other one is yours is you because you know what, you intended to prepare to present. Yeah. And then sometimes when you say something different than you prepared for, and it feels like, oh my God, I'm leaving my path. But it still makes sense to the audience because they can't look inside your head. Yeah, so that's fine.

Yeah, that's fine. And it is Is a sign that you are prepared well enough because you know what, you have to tell you know your story line and you know where you want to go. But just coming in and giving the audience the impression that you are looking now at your slides for the first time after half a year or something like this. That's right. It's like it's like it being in a meeting and people coming. Oh I don't know. What, what what what are you talking about here for ya?

So this is a waste of time for the people. It's absolutely disrespectful. Yeah, yeah, I agree. So. And I think when people come to a conference, they leave their desk and all of them have notes of work them. Yeah. And they come there because they are hoping that they will learn new stuff from you getting inspiration or whatever and then they are selling in the presentation and someone's. Yeah. What I had this is the topic we want to talk about it. Oh, I think I need to change

this. Slides. I don't know why it's not in shape. So so sloppy. It's a real shame. Yeah, and that seems like an easy fix as well, right?

Being being prepared. Enough. Is that something that people struggle with, or? Yeah, sometimes I think people take it, too easy. Hmm. I think. Oh, it's not a big deal. I just step on stage and I will do it. Yeah. But we are not doing a presentation for our own. We are doing, and always for the audience. Yeah. So, We need to think about what's helpful for the audience. What is the storyline I want to deliver? What are the key messages?

I want to deliver, so I need to spend a lot of thoughts on this and then I need to think, how can I explain it in a way that they can understand it? Because in this case, I'm the expert. I've spent so much time on this ideas and in my head it's very clear. Yeah, but it's not the The same in the other people said, yeah, and a lot of people tend to deliver as much as possible, okay? But our brains the audience able to get all these informations. Exactly.

What is what is the most important information? I want to deliver? Yeah, and this is a thing. A lot of people are really struggling with. What is my main message? Yeah, I can imagine.

That's that's really hard right? Because if you're if you've been doing this for years and you really know this topic that you're presenting, it's really hard to step back and go into your own shoes and be like, okay, what was my first introduction? Into this topic. Like what were the bottlenecks or what would I have wanted to see presented on stage and kind of fill the shoes of your audience in a way to step out of that I think is very hard to do that alone? Is that why?

People like do a lot of like feedback sessions and do a lot of iterations on their material? Yeah, I would assume so, right. Yeah, I think this is a really good thing to have a sparring partner going through the slides finding out where we have some gaps, between the one slide and the next slide. Lied. So what is the main idea? Is this important for your story or can we just leave it out because it's much too much information.

All those things. Yeah. And to understand that most presentations are just there for inspire people, giving them a lanai and idea and not to teach them how to do it. Yeah yeah so when you have a half an hour presentation you can't fully teach someone that they get out and our experts for the There's no yeah they just need to be inspired to say. Okay. I will dive deeper into it later. Yeah, this is what you need to do on stage.

You are just trying to inspire people and this is a completely different approach. Then I want to deliver everything. Exactly. Yeah. If that realization is there then I think you're gonna weigh more preparing. A different way because of the value is inspiration. Then your storyline is also going to make sense in there.

How how important is this? Storyline because I love when a story starts or presentation starts with a story and then somehow throughout our journey, they tie it back to the beginning. I think that's beautiful but I've tried to do it and that's really hard. How important is a story within kind of a technical presentation in that way? It's not only beautiful, it's the best way to make it stick. Okay. So people love stories. Yeah, and this is, and this is

what they remember. They love Is there laughs? Great visuals. And our brains are made for this. Yeah, stories have always been the way. How we have delivered ideas, how we have delivered rules because this is what people can remember. Yeah. So and so we do the best when we try to create a story, we can also do with technical stuff. We can start have a great stories. Yeah. Use cases how customer what, what is the problem customer want to solve or something like this?

And It also helps to get everyone on the same page. Yeah. To understand, what is my perspective? What is the perspective? We all are looking from on the this problem, interesting.

Because I've seen a lot of slides with a lot of text first and foremost and then, almost no images. And I'm just, like, man, is the person is kind of saying the same things as on the slides and then am I reading this larger? Am I listening or do it is zone out? Because that's also always an option. On the other hand, I've also seen kind of a new trend This is, I don't know if it's doing it too much, but I still like it where it's as little text as possible.

And it's a lot of imagery, sometimes even know text, and I'm just like, oh Cassie an image. I have something to relate to. And now I really need to listen what they're saying because that still relates to their story. And that for me, as an audience, keeps me more engaged. Do you think that's kind of a better way that it's trending more with imagery? And what we're storytelling in that way? Yeah, it's not only training it's also proven by Neuroscience.

Mmm. So So our brains can deal with much better with visuals and stories then just having a lot of numbers and facts written down. Yeah. So the other thing is that when you have a lot of text on your slides you force people to multitask. Yeah to read and listen and we most of us can't do both and then. Yeah. What's the thing what should I do? Should I reach should I listen, but But when I go to a conference and I have speakers live on stage, I should listen right.

Yeah. Otherwise if I'm reading, I don't need to go to the conference has really worked. So the and if we as a speaker, create our slides with lots of text and we take away the big Advantage from ourselves that people are there to listen to us and looking at us, Because we have so much text. Yeah, it's sending the sludge it's so boring. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes would companies have the mm, I don't know, only have the impression. That's what they tell me. Hmm, they say.

Okay, yeah, we use the slides to send them out to customers later, they two different use cases. Yeah, it was case. Number one is presenting on stage, use case. Number two is sending out to customers. Yeah. So you have to have two sets of slides, I like That the one is for the customers with text self explaining. The other one is for inspiring customers or audience. I like that a lot. Don't try to cut corners on that and make one kind of fits all sighs Taylor to whatever you use

cases. This is what Cole has always tell we have different use cases. So we need to make it fit to this use case and it's exactly the same with presentations. Yeah, exactly. So and when comes to storytelling, Storytelling is not only important giving a presentation on stage. It's also important in a company itself. Yeah. If I want to promote an idea, I can just say, okay, this is my idea. XY set, my can say imagine and start to tell what I want to

create, what is the day idea? And how it looks like later. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure most people will more listen to the story than just, I was my idea. Yeah. Not only listen to that, but they're gonna visualize it right, and it's going to stick with them even though they might disagree. The probably remember that. That's at least what I've seen. Yeah. So And I'm using a lot of visuals and my presentations as well. You have seen my cousin and I love them.

And I have so often the situation that people two years later, come to me and say Samina, in your presentation XY said, I had this image and whenever I have the situation in my daily work, I remember this image and then I can remember your advice. That's so cool. That's amazing. I even don't know which image that I had in this presentation but they had it in their mind and yeah, this is the thing we need to Go forward. We on stage. That's awesome.

It's awesome. When you do a lot with speaker

coaching sessions for organizations, as well as for individuals, what is kind of the common line that you've seen? That people struggle with is it more so storytelling? Is it being comfortable on stage? Is it? I don't think it's the actual material. What, what is it that you've seen as kind of a trend. So one thing is a storytelling, especially if we are. If I'm working with technical people, yeah, how should I create a story? I love this and this is the one thing.

But I think this is easy when we start to think, about real use cases, how can we integrate this use case until the whole session? And then it's really easy to find out what is necessary to understand what's not necessary on the harder. One is being comfortable on stage and a lot of people have in mind that they are on stage. And they will forget everything. Yeah, the worst case worst-case scenario. Yeah, to be honest since 2013 I'm now on conferences I have never ever seen this.

Yeah this is just something. We have in our head is worst-case scenario. I said, just forget it. Hmm. I've never seen this and if it happens you can't do anything against it. Exactly. It's have to deal with it. Yeah, yeah. So and a lot of people are afraid of being on stage, what can happen and They will not exactly say what they plan to say, and all those things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah I can imagine, I mean, that was one of the hardest parts for me being comfortable standing on stage and the podcast has helped me kind of bridge that Gap because I would never see myself standing on stage. If we're talking about five years ago, but because I've kind of been more comfortable like voicing my opinions or it just been comfortable with my voice. I think standing on stage has been easier for me to do so, but not everyone.

Is going to start a podcast, the kind of incrementally grow

towards that. I think still, you need to be comfortable in some sort of form of uncomfortableness and grow in there. And the first time it's not going to be as as good as the 10th time for example, but you have to allow yourself for some kind of growth in there if this is actually what you want to do. Yeah. I think the problem is that we all want to be somehow perfect. Yeah. From the get-go that's ideal. And I think No one, no. One else loves someone who's

perfect on stage. Yeah, they want to see human being on stage and human beings. I'm not perfect and sometimes we say something wrong. Yeah Cass. Yeah. Who cares most of the people in the audience see you as Brave person. Yeah Brave person who is Keen enough to be on stage presenting the knowledge on stage and they appreciate you for that. Yeah. It's only you was like am I good luck with the biggest critics of our own? Yes, yes, sir. And when we, when we get

nervous, it's like stomachs and butterflies on our stomachs or something like that. What is this is just inside of us. No one knows that. No one sees that. And this is also what we have to understand that if we are nervous, it's most of the time, not visible. For other people. Yeah, so it's okay to be nervous and people sometimes start to

fight nervously. Yeah, I didn't does not make sense because we can't do it being nervous as a sign of chemicals in your bodies and you want to do your best and all the things, just accept it and don't waste energy on fighting nervousness. Is this energy representation? I like that just being I mean just accepting it right?

Because it's a natural response. It is going to happen realizing that it will happen and kind of feeling how it happens is fine and then just moving on and doing with it. Yes. So I'm I have done a lot of sports competition in my young years and I have learned when I was nervous before the competition. It always was good. Okay. And when I wasn't nervous I could have stayed at home. Okay? So for me, It's The Sign of being in it. Yeah.

And willing to do the best or just saying okay doesn't matter. Yeah exactly. And I promised myself when I ever get on stage and I'm not nervous anymore I'm to leave. Something's wrong. Yeah I like that you said that people don't want to see like a an image of perfection on stage right? They want to see human but for me still I want to do more with speaking and conferences this

year that like that's one of my year goals but I have a hard time. Figuring out my topic and my conference style, even it's something I'm experiencing but experimenting with as well as storytelling. But what I never want to lose is kind of my own authenticity because I still want to be myself on stage right. If I'm not myself on stage, I just think it's going to be exhausting trying to be someone that I'm not. But still, I want to look at people to inspire me.

So how do you balance then kind of finding inspiration and still being yourself and being comfortable with what you're doing? Because I think if you would coach a lot of people, they might just adopt whatever you're doing other than losing themselves, authenticity wise, and this is a fear, a lot of people have.

So when I go into speaker coaching, maybe it's not my presentation anymore, but this is the job of the code to not do. This should be the presentation of the other person and, you know, coaching is always about feedback and feedback is about making a decision if I want to adopt it or not. Yeah. So I'm just Putting a mirror in front of people and saying okay this is what I understood. Yeah and this is how I feel about it. Is this what you really want to do? Yes, this is okay.

It's your presentation. Yeah. So I will never ever say you can't do this. I'm just giving ideas. I'm just giving some kind of inspiration and people have to work out their own stuff. Yeah. And this is the feedback. I often get it at the end. They it was cool because it's still my talk. It's still my presentation, but much better than before. Exactly. And then people say, yeah, I saw that at the end, it's your

presentation. So I will never ever say to people, you have to put the visual in and This image or something like this, because not my presentation. Exactly. And they need to feel good with it. Yeah, and I often say, you beat, you, you need to be your own brand on stage, this is what you need to create. This is some kind of experimentation. So how should my own brand look like? Yeah, this is something you can do for yourself and say okay, how should people See me.

Yeah. How what, what should they remember in the year? Hmm. And then you can say, okay, if this is what they should remember, what is the action I need to take out of it? Exactly. Yeah. You look at it from a point of value, right? And it can be remembering you in some sort of way that can be the value that you contribute and then looking back at how you can

achieve that. That's very different from how I would think because I'm also look at maybe because it's my lack of experience, but I'm So look at how I'm going to do things or what I'm going to do and then the outcome is kind of it could be a byproduct but turning it around and looking at your outcomes and then Taylor fitting whatever you're doing, I think that might be a better approach. Yeah. Then you are about working with

the vision. The vision of you as a speaker, how people should perceive you and then you can find out what do I need to do for this? Exactly. Yeah, we came kind of to this topic when I came to visibility

in organizations and we started off with I mean, I see the benefit of being more visible right when it comes to should your manager knowing what you're doing or even your organization and their managers. When it comes to promoting you or growing within that organization growing within your career, do you think everyone kind of needs to think about their own visibility? Like, is that a thing that every

employee could benefit from? Because I, I, I feel like if I'm gonna say this into a group, a lot of people are not going to be comfortable with being more visible or being more active. They just want to do their job. And that's That if this is your goal and it's fine. Yeah. Oh, we are different. And we all have different goals and we need to find out what is my personal goal? Yeah. And what do I need to do for it? It's the same question again. Okay, why do I want to be in

five years? And what do I need to do for this? Hmm. What is the way I can go? Exactly.

Yeah. As this kind of mindset has already because I know it, I mean, I've seen your presentation, you were amazing at it. Is that something you've kind of gained throughout your

professional career? Did you get kind of first of all, this knowledge and the other hand, also the skills to back that up. Yeah, so I have always loved to give presentation and when I think back to my school times, I also used a lot of visuals there because I personally like in images, having an idea with this image and that's great. And then in 2013, I started to interest myself for for conferences and apply for conference was a very funny

situation. Now someone asked me to do communication workshops for software development. Yeah, I said, are you kidding me software developers? They don't want to communicate. So that's yeah, it was a customer and I say, okay, I have to work with this and I try to find out if there are already workshops. As for communication for software developers and I didn't found anything, but I came along across Asia and devops and I try to find out what is devops and other things.

And I found out that a lot of devops is culture and communication collaboration. Yeah, I thought okay, my skills teaching people how to communicate and work better together would be great add-on. And Via Twitter I reached out

for Patrick Dubois. Okay. So I now ask Patrick Patrick. This is what I am doing. Yeah, should I apply for devops today's conference? And he said we love soft goods please apply. Okay. WIll Stoke? So in this was my first time on a conference on the Tech conference develop stays Ljubljana. Yeah and the started the way as I said Okay I want to be on conferences good for visibility. It's good for my show. Job and all those things. Yeah.

And I think People need to understand what they want to reach the goal and then need to find out how can I do it? And when I started on conference, I was it was my first conference earning, hmm. It was my first conference on a Tech conference on my first presentation Tech conference or but like I have no idea what they expect. Yeah and I got a lot of feedback. I looked at my own videos and say okay this I like this I don't like This and I try to adapt things I've seen on other

presentations. I always ask my husband, he's my

sparring partner when I'm preparing my presentations, I tried to explain my story line. The overall idea, I show him my slides and all the things and is giving very honest feedback, that's helpful for awesome. And I think this is important important that we have someone. With honest. Yeah, and gives feedback and you trust. Yeah, so you feel good with it. When it's person is giving you the feedback and then you can Improve the way you are doing it. I agree.

Yeah, there's a difference. There's a difference between giving feedback and giving advice, right? Because advice could be like I would do this or this is what I would have done something like that and feedback is this is kind of how it comes across to me and that could be an opinion that can be subjective and I think you are never ready with hmm with every presentation You get new feedback. Yeah, and then you can make a decision. Okay. Do I want to do this or that?

Or you are the contract and you see something different hide? It looks good. Yeah, maybe this is good thing for me and then you need to try to find out if it's good for you and you do it on stage and then you say, that's very good. That's not good. Exactly. I don't do this again. Yeah, like I said, experimentation, yeah, what point of feedback because I'm

looking at this, from my lens of Being a podcast host. And one of the feedback points I got early on was there was a specific word that I always used to say when someone else was talking I was like, yeah, I'm never gonna do that again. So I really consciously worked on kind of removing that and still I get feedback and sometimes I'm like okay that's good feedback and sometimes I'm like, okay, but this is my

vision for the show. So I that's not something I want to compromise on. That's not going to change. As there been like what feedback has always kind of stuck with you as kind of something you've adopter, something you Still not accommodate for so I can remember one of my first conferences, I had already a lot of colors on my slides and then someone came to me you can't use so much colors on your slides that not good. You need to have a style guide

and I think okay. Okay my goodness, I'm still using a lot of colors but I have some kind of style guide. Yeah. Okay, yeah. So you did kind of find find a compromise in there. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, I think this is the hottest thing that people you have never seen before come to you and give you some kind of feedback. Yeah. You have no idea who I am. So why are you telling me? I'm using too much color just because otherwise other people have just black and white on the slide.

So I want to make it different here and I think this is important that it's important that you have the vision of what how you want to be perceived otherwise, it makes you crazy when people come up. Such things exist and it's important to understand that if you are doing it in a different way, there will be people who come and say, I don't like it. Yeah, exactly. Because it's different.

Yeah, I like that but also for me, like, it's hard balancing feedback and seeing what you agree with at still, having the kind of upholding your own Vision because the fact that people are giving feedback to me, I always think that's the people that care, right? If they voice their opinion, in a way that they want to improve the show. Because they like the, A show, they see the value.

They want to improve, whatever, whatever it is, doesn't have to be show, could be a presentation right for you to take with you and for them to enjoy them later. Those people usually speak up, but sometimes it can also a

mean. If we're talking about negativity, can also be a vocal kind of negative part or a more vocal - part while a silent, like, majority agrees with what you've done and has enjoyed it. So, it's kind of hard to find the balance in there for me. Yeah, but we can't deliver in a way that we are everybody. Installing, yeah, good point. And this is why Always again we need to have our own strong vision for what we want to deliver.

This is the only thing which can help you to navigate with all these feedback and try to find out. Okay, this is a point I want to think about This is point, okay? It's okay for that. This person gave me the truth that feedback and I'm I really appreciated. Yeah. At it's my style. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with that. You, you don't have to compromise on everything as kind

of a final thought. I still was wondering these, we started off again with kind of visibility and organizations, but also that's going to require extra effort, right? And it can be in work time, some organizations are allowing for people to work on kind of their personal. Branding doing our during office hours but still you're in a team. And if you want to be good dedicated within that team, you have to give that team and kind of the operation sense of things.

The thing that you're working on as a team kind of undivided attention in a way. If everyone within that team also starts then working on kind of personal branding and being visible within the organization, is it going to take away from the thing that the team is doing? And how is it going to impact the organization and have you and have seen how that contributes within an organization? So then we are talking about team goals. Yeah, so setting tingles, how

can we achieve that? How does may be invisible on conferences? Help us with this goal or how does it have an impact? How can we balance it? Yeah, so I think it's again about the ego being visible but working on a team needs also, to be to have the ability to leave my ego out and say, okay, this is what we want to achieve it. Team. Yeah, but I also want to go and Conference. How can we do it together?

What do we need to do? So, it is not a decision of your own when you are working on a team. The team needs to be okay with that, and the team needs to balance it. Hmm. If it's too much, it's too much. The team can't achieve the goals. Yeah, we have Team goals. They are the most important part and we need to figure out how we can maybe integrate our personal ideas with it when we Have one-on-ones with our leader manager. We can say hey I want to go more on conferences but this would

have this impact on our team. Yeah. How can we deal with? Yeah yeah. So I think to talk about it. The very important thing I like that. So to talk about before we have made a decision. Exactly. Yeah kick starting that conversation because I thought I always look at it from an organizational sense where, if the organization's, okay with you doing it? Yeah, then It becomes hard and kind of balancing your team tasks. If you don't open up that

conversation. But I like that you attribute that, the conversation needs to happen within the team and then there needs to be a balance, right? Because there's if there's a tip of the scale either, you are not going to be pleased with whatever you're doing because you don't get kind of that divided, attention undivided attention for your personal branding or the team is going to suffer because then they kind of lose you.

Because you go off on your own trail, work on your own visibility in that sense, yeah, that's again about transparency,

right? Yeah. So, we need prints parent goals of the team. We need to transparent capacities. How much capacity do we really have? Yeah, but we also need to have transparency in our personal goals, which affect our teamwork. Yeah. So having someone who says, oh yes, I'm 100% in the team, but besides working on on personal goals, which are suffering, which, which are making team suffer from it. It's not transparent. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

And I think transparency in the thing about goals in Gold's company, goals. Personal goals is very, very important only. Then we have the chance to find a way, how we can make it work. Yeah. And that makes complete sense from an organization that or or

maybe even a manager that's listening to this and kind of can see the value for personal branding or personal branding for their employees in combination with the organization but they don't kind of have a way of working yet to figure out how to allocate time for. That one. How to self manage for that? What would you, what would you advise for an organization? That is kind of Shifting towards that to allow more kind of attention on personal branding for their employees.

What do they need to accommodate for as an organization? I think first of all, they need to make it clear that they are really willing to give this Freedom that yeah in this room for that and maybe finding those people, identifying those people who are willing to be the first one to do that and working out with them. What are the next steps? What do you want to do? What are our expectations? And what can We together do to make it work though.

I would always start to identify people who say hey that's a good idea. I want to try it. Yeah we can start with everybody. We need to find out who's really willing to do it. Yeah. And to have some good examples and to have success and all the things for other people to say yes, but I would wait. And then also to, to talk about what are the benefits. We all All have from, it's not only about the visibility of one part.

It's also about being able to promote ideas to initiate change within the company, when you are on stage, and you are preparing to, to give an idea to the audience to inspire people. Yeah. All the skills can be used within the company for creating change. Yeah, it's not only about being a date. This is what Sometimes managers also have to understand that it's not about someone who wants to be. They each and wants to be VIP or something like that.

This person learns so much. Yeah, which can be used in customer meetings which can be used in internal meetings can be used for creating change. So it's important from company's perspective to think about it. And so we need to understand what do people need to do this and what can Give but will also need to talk about our expectations. Yeah. So the most part were the most common problem is that We haven't met expectations but if we don't know the expectations it's hard.

How should we do it? Exactly. But I like that, I mean it has several benefits right? Not just from a fulfillment point of view because if someone really wants to do that they're going to be happier having done that but also from a personal sense of growth and personal growth, I think always translates to whatever they do professionally, right? They're going to be better because of that, I have so many Cochise they say, okay now we

have worked the presentation. But next time, I will use this in the customer presentation. Yeah, it's the same. I'm not on stage but it's the same. I can use it there as well. That's amazing. And so this is exactly the benefit you have out of it.

Yeah, I've Loved this conversation so far. So be know when it comes to kind of personal branding visibility and how you would do that then standing on stage and conferences. What do you think of? And how can you contribute and add value? Even kind of thinking, with a goal in mind, is there anything you would still like to share with you? Audience before we leave off. Just try it, just try. That's what I say is. Well, if you have an inkling, just try it. But even without an inkling,

would you say just try? Yes. Yeah, just to experience. Yes, that's awesome. And enjoy it. And what just the most important part? Why, when do we have so many people sitting down just listening to us. Mmm, what's after time? We have to fight for only one minute. Yeah, I like that. I've never looked at it like that and I think it's going to be scary for People even if they've never thought of it, that just try it, but it is an experience, right?

You take that with you and it might be addicting as well. You might want to do more of it. Maybe, maybe we're going to round it off there. I'll put all Sabinas links to our socials in the description below. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.