Hi everyone, my name is Reggie Coquille. And for today's episode, we covered public speaking, as well as Communications for people that are bit more technical oriented, my guest new Thompson shares, his own Journey with regards to public speaking, and he does on a regular basis on the, teach the geek podcast. Besides that, he helps people with public speaking, as well as coach people. I'll put all the links to socials in the description below. Check him out.
And with that being said, enjoy the episode. I want to go over your kind of point that public speaking game became a bit more apparent within your career because you mentioned in the cold before that you were software engineer and you were doing a lot of presentations at the time. Can you share a little bit more about that? Sure. So I worked in medical devices and the product development engineer, that was my second
job. My first job was as a research associate at a startup company and there were no presentations that I had to give and that was something that wasn't something. I was all that upset about all those presentations. It was my boss that had to do with them but with my second job I was a project lead and essentially what that was is the company was too cheap to hire project managers.
So they push that responsibility onto the product development Engineers, one of which was having to give Status updates in front of Senior Management on a monthly basis and this was all day Affair. So we're talking the CEO CTO CMO seeing film, The Blanco, all these people in the room just listening to a bunch of Engineers give project status updates and my first presentations were absolutely
horrendous. Patrick, I don't think it was possible to sweat that profusely from one's body, but there it was just pouring out of me, just from everywhere. I mean fingernails don't even have pores. How, how Ow my finger. Yes with But these are, this was, this is an ongoing thing. I need to do this every month,
really eventually. Yeah, So eventually what happened is my project was cancelled and that was the project that I was actually brought into the company to do because I thought I was going to be out of a job.
Luckily, they just moved me on to other projects but that definitely was the wake-up call that I needed to really decide that I need to get better at giving presentations in front of people, especially decision makers, especially decision-makers who don't have technical Yeah, and it did you have any presentation experience with regards to your educational career? Or was that kind of the moment where it really started to get the ball rolling where you had
to do it? Regardless of I had nothing in terms of school year? Nothing. I really think it's. Yeah, it's unfortunate to and I don't think it's all that uncommon for a lot of people at least here in the US who go to engineering school here is okay, be presenting is not really presenting are presenting, technical information. Isn't something at least when I went to school. There was all that emphasized.
It was really, that second job, where it became a necessity for me to give presentations in front of people. Okay, interesting, because in the Netherlands, you do practice a lot with giving presentations. However, if you're in a group setting usually, let's say a group is five people. One of them would take on kind of giving the presentation and that would be their share of the work they do within that
project. And obviously, that person would either want to do it or try and Better at it or already is adapted doing that. So for myself, I usually left that to other people a lot, but I do know that, for example, putting so much text on your slides that it's almost a book
is a bad idea, yet. I've seen other people do that and I'm like, man, that that's like fundamental, you should know that, that might not be the best idea, but I get if you don't get a lot of practice, I mean, if you're, if you were like yourself back, Back when you were the one allowing other people to give the presentations and maybe then that's not all that apparent to you. But I can, I can say from personal experience going to a number of conferences, allows
them more technical in nature. A lot of them, more Technical and academic in nature. When you get a grad student or a postdoc, or even a professor giving a presentation, is all it can very well. Be a whole lot of text on the slide and a lot of reading of the slides and that's a very difficult, very difficult to engage an audience, we are not looking at them. You're looking at the slides because that's like a greeting them.
Exactly. And then for the audience it's like, okay, I'm gonna listen to someone read the slides, I'm going to read myself which someone is just going to talk through. Like it doesn't. It doesn't make sense from an audience perspective either. Yeah. Then you have the third option which is just not pay attention at all. Yeah. Which it looks like some people than off to. Yeah, that makes sense.
Cool but when yeah so you mentioned that your project ended and you you were put on to a different project and that's really when it clicked when you wanted to focus on getting better at presentation or public speaking. How like yeah, it was the first step in there. I joined Toastmasters. So for those of you all that, don't know, it's an international organization, whose goal is to help people improve their public speaking skills and it provides a great Forum to do that.
The the issue that I had with Toastmasters was, it's for everybody. So, if you have a technical presentation, you may very well be presenting to people who aren't the best or perhaps it may not be able to give you the best advice on how to improve a technical presentation because they've never given one themselves. Yeah. And that's really where Where I start until I started as you mentioned having to give these presentations and in front of management.
But then I really wanted to develop something to help people like myself, people that work in the technical Fields, who have to give presentations, especially in front of non-technical audiences, because these people tend to be the decision-makers and if you're an engineer working in a company and for instance, you want to get buy-in for a project or project that you want to work on.
Then you got to convince these people and throwing a bunch of People jargon that them a bunch of data isn't going to cut it. You're likely going to get a no. So I try to figure out what can I develop? That can help people like me and I ended up developing an online course I called it teach the geek to speak. So you join Toastmasters. And if I were to summarize it, those Masters really General, right? I've had one. Guest on one, pair of on is his name and he loves Toastmasters.
He says it really helped him practice what he wanted to. Perfect, which is to speak in public but that's very general, right? He is currently in the data science field, he didn't learn anything with regards to how to convey data to people that don't have that same background but our stakeholders within that process. So really did. I think that Niche maybe is lacking with in there. But I have heard that it's really good with regards to the general public speaking, which
is really cool. 100%. As I mentioned, is a great forum for that and you learn the I guess the art of public speaking which is great so now you're a great presenter but are you great? Representing the technical information in a way that non-technical people can understand Toastmasters really isn't the best, I guess it really isn't what? It's not based on that. It's not meant for that. It's just it's meant for getting better at just be more comfortable giving presentations
in front of people. Exactly. And when it comes to comfort like what were the biggest points? You that helped you at least create your comfort zone with in giving presentations or public speaking even. Well, it starts with practice. You don't get better at something if you don't do it and for the longest while I avoided it, I mean I mentioned that that first job I didn't have to give the presentations and the possibly were opportunities for me to do so but it was never
anything I pushed for. I'll tell you that it was only until I was forced to do it in that second job. That I ended up seeing the benefit and there's also just looking around at the people who tend to move up within organizations, you could be an engineer who's very Technically
proficient. But if no one knows about your technical proficiency, if you're not the best at advocating for yourself and networking with the people who can make those decisions, have you move up within corporations and you'll likely be that engineer who's just doing in their cubicle mad because someone else got the promotion that you thought you deserved. Yeah, it's really. I mean, I think like, I undervalued, when I started out how much you kind of need to advocate for yourself, which is
a shame, right? Because everything When she just get it, it will be a lot easier if they would. But for them to get it, you have to communicate what they should get. And sometimes that is very hard for us to do, right? Well, you know what it is is you're assuming that everybody knows about what you're doing, but why would you even make that assumption everybody? The company's got thinking about themselves and their own progression. Their own advancement.
But you're supposed to be top of mind. Please other people. Why would you even have that expectation? Yeah. Yeah. When you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense. But when you start out your like, I mean I'm part of this, right? So they know what's going on. They know what I have on my plate and then know what I'm working on. That's a lot of times when I see people they're like I can't leave. Or I can't be sick and I'm like, it's an organization continues. The world doesn't like stop
spinning. Everything will continue. Whether you're sick or whether you're on leave, or whether you're there, it's going to be slightly different. Ian juby saying you could die and they'll have a job requisition up for your position the week later. Yeah, I agree. Might sound harsh but if you think about it, that's actually how it works.
Yeah. When I move into you because you said you started something to help engineer specifically, get better with public speaking, but then we also touched upon people advocating for themselves which is not necessarily. I wouldn't put that in the public speaking sense but that has more to do with communication. Do you think Engineers require communication skills or would it be more public speaking skills or what is your thought on that? Well, I think it's a bit of both.
Only when you talk about communicating, it's all about just talking about your value, to an organization and a great way to do that is through public speaking. The people that are the communicators, the people who are able to talk about what they do, well, are the ones who typically have the visibility within a company. You have the visibility of all the decision-makers know who you are decision makers, know who you are.
Now, your top of mind for them, for those positions, if you're the engineer who's not great at giving, Presentations, you're not advocating for yourself. You're not communicating at all. You just think that being technically proficient at doing your job really? Well, we'll have you move up within an organization. Well, you're in for a rude awakening. Yeah, that makes sense. I like the way my buddy. Toby.
Put it totally Toby only wallet. He said when you're applying for a job, it's weird but the best candidate actually doesn't always win. It's the people that can communicate why they are the best and that they are the best that will probably get the job. Bob, even though they might not be the best, it's the people that can communicate it most effectively. And if you cannot, then that's a shame because you might actually be the best.
But you do need to work on your communication skills. 100%. I mean, even determining who the best is. I mean, you don't want to leave that in the, in the eyes, or in the control of others. To look at a resume and think, okay, this person is the best person you want to have as much control over the situation as possible and you have control over what you say about about yourself and why you are the best person for that particular job.
So, get better at communicating that with others and you give yourself a better chance of getting the position. Oh yeah. We're talking about like technical people. Maybe engineer software engineers in specific. What is kind of the Common Thread that you see usually goes well, and something they really need to work on. What goes well, is that they put some thought into a process for actually giving a presentation. They don't go willy-nilly into it.
I have a friend who actually gives me a hard time, he's not an engineer and he gives me a hard time over the fact that I practiced my presentations before I give them. Okay. Does a lot of Wiki, you brings a lot of his presentations and it's quite obvious that he wins a lot of his presentations. I just heard him actually give a presentation just a few days ago and it was required obvious that he did. Practice at all.
And it's unfortunate because when you practice, you figure out the best way to put things together, and they'll point this point, one point. Two point. Three Y is point. One point one. Does it make sense 4.1 to be point one? I think, Engineers because of their analytical nature. They're they're much more likely to think about those types of things. One of the issues I think we have is Engineers, is the the jargon that we tend to use amongst each other, which may not be all that.
We may not be known to non-technical audience and so if you end up using these words, they very well go over people's heads. And people may not be comfortable asking you what that word means, because they're worried about looking foolish in front of other people.
And I can, I can attest to being in that situation once I went to a marketing event and the person was talking about Downstream and Upstream marketing to this day of, I always get them mixed up as was the difference between the upstream and downstream mean when I think of streams I'm thinking about But they're talking about marketing and but I was, but I was worried about
asking a question. I was very worried about asking a question at the end because I didn't want look foolish in front of all these other people who very well, knew what upstream and downstream marketing was. But that was a default of myself. I should have asked because I was assuming that they all knew, but they're very well, may have been people in the audience that didn't know. But was. Well, the better is to use more commonly used words, or at least
explain the word. Certain words that perhaps may not be known by everyone in the audience. And I think that's something that Engineers may not be all that Adept at doing. Yeah. Interesting because tailoring to your audience, seems logical. Right? Seems logical in content that you create even when you're writing a blog post and it might
not be obvious. Because obviously, if you're writing a technical blog post, the audience is going to be technical, maybe they want to solve the same issue you did or learn from what you did and how you did that. So then it makes Sense to talk on a more technical level.
But if you're giving a general presentation to decision makers and cxos or even marketing people, if you're not a marketing person and the people are using marketing jargon in this going to be a mismatch in understanding 100% And ones are mismatch of understanding then you'll get fall off of people.
Actually listening to what you have to say, which is unfortunate because I'm sure you put a lot of time and effort into your presentation and you want to make sure as many people can understand it and are engaged with it as possible. Yeah. So in essence, if they, for example, prepare what they have to say, they prepared it there with in time, even in the know what they're going to say going into that. And their language is tailor-made for the audience that they have.
Or even generically made, that it can be understood by a broader audience. Are they there then, or are they still kind of lacking certain aspects of what they should focus on? Oh, I think that's half the battle of mean, just knowing your audience and knowing what the, what they want to what, how to convey the information in the best way possible. I think that's that's more than
half the battle. I think a lot of times also, just in terms of giving presentations is having a clear call to action at the And I know that I was something that I struggled with when I what I didn't do. When I first started giving presentations is just you want the audience to know what they what you what you as the presenter need from them at the end of the presentation. So I mentioned I was giving presentations on project status
updates. Yeah. So potential call to action could be I need more resources to get the project done on time. Yeah. And that wasn't something that I was making all that clear in the presentation. I just thought they would get it based on on the other things. So I said well this is this this part of the project to slipping and this other part of the project is going to slip because this part of the project
slipped. So I'm inferring, I need more resources so that there's less slippage in these parts of the project but I never come out and say I need more resources and I think you do yourself a disservice by not doing that. Yeah I like that it's really just setting the expectations
and lot. Not letting people necessarily interpret their own but stating exactly what you Of them, if you need more, see resources, tell them, or let them know or convey that so they understand and can help you in that way as well. I like that a lot that I think I especially starting off, if I were to give an update, it would just be that it would be an update or if I would need help. I would also exactly as you say, allow people to interpret that and think it's obvious, right?
Because if I read it and I these are my conclusions, then I would think other people would do the same thing but men reality is different sometimes. Absolutely, I agree. Yeah, I mean if you can eliminate any assumptions why wouldn't you saw sense? I know you do a podcast and you've been doing it for a while as well and you interview people and you ask them about their own journey.
Within public. Speaking through that, have you seen kind of a correlation of people clicking with public speaking in the same way or doing certain things like even having a conversation and realizing on I actually need to tailor make my presentation or the communication that I do to the audience. I'm speaking to was that have you seen kind of a general correlation there or how's that been? Oh, 100%.
I mean, a lot of the it's so interesting to how a lot of the people that I interviewed almost mirror my own journey in public speaking. It's just something that they were that was thrust onto them. It wasn't me. Something they were looking to do, but they eventually saw the benefit of it and then they also then saw what they needed to do to get better at it. At least eventually some of them
saw a little sooner than I did. They didn't have a get the project cancelled for them to get the get the point but A lot of them, they eventually they see the point of getting better at it and like myself, they looked for opportunities to do it. A number of them actually started podcast and they said that that was actually very helpful and then becoming just better at communicating their thoughts and and communicating with others. Especially the ones who interview people like.
I do love hearing the, I think the more you practice the better you get at it. It's just for me personally and I especially throughout my Occasional journey. I got so much anxiety, even before. Starting just the idea of it or actually standing in front of people and having to present, or having to talk even like even now when I'm in a room of people, I don't know. And you do the rounds, right? You talk about hey, who are you? What are you going to do within this project?
What is kind of your role or maybe in your background? It gives me anxiety. Maybe on a minor scale, but the idea of me doing that on a more public skill is still there. R. I just figured out my way to deal with that, and I think because that anxiety is therefore, a lot of people, it kind of with holds them from trying or practicing in the first place.
And that's, that's so unfortunate because I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts that are useful and can benefit people, and it would be a shame for them to just stay in your head and not be communicating with others. And you also got to think about the ways that different people like to do. Can information. Some people prefer to read some people prefer to here and it'd be a shame if the people who prefer to hear, never hear from
you. Yeah, I agree. But there's always that uncertainty that was also there before while I was a little bit less on certain that my thoughts. Probably, no one wants to hear those, right? And probably everyone is thinking the same thing and making the same conclusion as I am, or if I have a question, I should probably not ask that.
Because as you say, people probably know even though they might not know, Yeah, I mean that's definitely a concern, I mean, yeah, as I mentioned, I was in that in that exact position of having to sitting in an audience and not being all that comfortable asking a question because I was I was worried about looking foolish but again, that was an assumption that I made and I know that I shouldn't have made.
Ultimately, I'm the fool for not getting the information that I wanted, because, now I'm leaving the the event. Not understanding it as best as I possibly could. But if I just asked the question and maybe even risk the the idea of looking foolish and I think I would have been much better off. Yeah, I agree. I think sometimes it's fair to take a risk to see how it plays out and to experience what the
other side would be right. If you never take a risk, or if you never take a chance to ask a question, you're never going to know what's going to be on the other end of that outcome than, as well. Yeah, I mean and I think I'm said this or earlier, but you don't know if other people in the audience have that same question and there's just worried about as asking it. So you can just basically open up the floodgates of a bunch of questions for attentively that
other people had. But you were the one you were, the Catalyst actually asked it and you helped everyone out, right? We're talking about the podcast earlier and I've never asked you this actually, but why? Did you start the podcast the way back when you did?
Well, the podcast was really about other people's public speaking Journeys. I really was interested in knowing about them because I had my own phone speaking Journey that I mentioned, I was curious to see if other people in the technical Fields had similar ones. And that's really what I started. The podcast for is just to learn about these people's Journeys, but it morphed into something even completely, well, not different, but it certainly I've added on to it.
So now it's not just About people's public speaking Journeys but it's also about their career Journeys. Some of the most interesting conversations I've had with people are people who started off one place and ended up somewhere completely different. This one guess that always stands up stands out. To me, her name is, Christine, Vartan Ian. She got a degree in civil engineering never worked as one though. She then went to law school and worked. As a lawyer for about four years.
Then she was a stay-at-home mom for ten years and now she works as Personal stylist mean, you can I couldn't make that up. If I tried civil engineer to personal stylist, it's such an interesting journey and if I adjust focused on the public speaking part, I would have missed that part completely.
And I think that could be of interest to people to especially people who are concerned about deviating from the path that they're on. I get the sense of there are a lot of people out there that are like that. You went to school for engineering. You have to work as an engineer. I mean what? And And why would you not? That's what you went to school for. But if you have other interests than its you have One Life to Live, it'd be a shame.
If you didn't follow those interest to see where they take you. Yeah, I think it's like a really aligned with that because the most interesting conversations I've had as well, not take a less from the other conversations I've had, but I really appreciate when people take a chance especially when it comes to a career switch or doing something completely different in their life and figuring out. This is actually what I was meant to do. It wasn't civil engineering,
what it wasn't what? I went to school for its this and they only find that through figuring life out figuring their own life out, figuring out what they don't like figuring out what they do like and then especially grabbing towards what they actually do. Like, I think a big issue, I think a lot of people have is they may very well want to change change paths but they're worried about the Judgment of others. And that's a shame to especially
you mean. A lot of people, they may very well go to university to get an engineering degree and then they end up working as an engineer and they don't like it so much, but they stay being an engineer because they're worried about the Judgment of say, their parents or just other people in their Circle. Me you Went to school for engineering when we're also very proud. You became an engineer, you're not working as one. Why would you want to deviate from that?
And they make me feel guilty about it and very well stay Engineers even though they're unhappy. But, as I mentioned this, you only have one life to live and and becoming the courage to make that change and do something else. I highly commend people who do it and I thoroughly enjoy having conversations with those type of people. Yeah, yeah, I agree as well. Sometimes the internet is a little bit slow, and then your voice clean catches up. And I just lost my train of
thought throughout that. Yeah, I think if we kind of withhold from what we want to do, because we focus too much on what people are judging right. Whether it's public speaking, or whether it's switching careers because you don't want to be a doctor and your parents always expect you to be one. You're never gonna have that life. That really fulfills you if you don't do what you actually want and figuring out what you want is a first.
But then taking that step in actually doing that that needs to follow as well. 100%, I couldn't agree more and even someone like myself, I started off as an engineer working in medical devices. But now I do a bunch of different things. I do that. I have a children's book. I do Consulting on medical device packaging. I have a bunch of different interests and I just, I follow them. I follows interest and I see where they lead me. Yeah, I love that. That's pretty cool.
Zooming in, on the the children's books and she touched upon it as well. Can you give a little intro? Towards that. Sure, it's called a skunk O'Neill. Why is my hair curly? It's about my nephew asking me why his hair is the way it is. And I use science to answer the question. The motivation for the book is the Foster children's curiosity. And I mentioned that I was, I worked as an engineer, but the reason I worked as a reason, I even became an engineer wasn't
really. Because I thought to become an engineer, it was because my father, when I was in high school said, go to the engine. During school and I had them. Whether I was really thinking about anything else. I didn't have any other plans and so I became an engineer. I went to engineering school and I used to lie about that a lot actually. I fly about the reason I became an engineer because embarrassed, by the reason, because often times when you ask people that question, they have way more.
Interesting. Answer. Maybe they played with Legos as a child, maybe they were robotics Club when they were in high school. There was a robotics Club when I was in high school. He stepped on my high school and I don't really recall. Play with Legos, I became an engineer because my father said I should and I just I followed that path and it worked out, okay? But I really want children to understand that Being curious is is what will lead you to down
different paths. I wasn't curious about engineering, really, I became one because of what my father said, who knows. Maybe I would have ended up an engineer anyway, but I really want young kids in the book is written for children up to 8 years old. Okay. I want them to embrace curiosity and seeing where that leads you. And not only that, but I want parents to Foster that within children, you know, I remember
when I was a kid. And I'd ask questions and there were times where my prayers were really were interested in answering. I'll say I had that too. Yeah. But I really I'm really.
I firmly believe that. That parents should really help their kids in just being in fostering that Curiosity and ask and answering questions and telling the kids that well if they don't know, the answer will look what can we do to find out what the answer is and because oftentimes those with the question as the question Question askers of today are going to be the problem solvers of Tomorrow.
What our Engineers do typically they're they're problem solvers, but before you get to the problem, well before you get to them solution, you have to be able to know what the problem is and be and be Adept at asking problems. Her asking questions to get to these Solutions. And that's really what I wanted to convey with the children's book is Be curious, and it's in for parents, let your kids be
curious. I think that is so cool because, especially, for my personal Journey Curiosity, has always been a huge driver within that figuring things out asking questions. I mean, I kind of laughed at what you said because I did it way too much as a kid to the point where my parents will be like. Yeah, that's a bit too much or we don't know. And we're not going to figure it out or just let that one go. But curiosity, how was always been a big driver.
For me, figuring out how things actually work. I think that's how I ended up being a software engineer because still on a technical level that drives me. But now that I'm focused more on communication, even on a personal level on a motivational level on a People level, it draws me why people do the things they do. And I want to help them with that. Even when I meet new people, I think there is always something interesting that someone brings to the table.
And I think a big reason why I believe that is because curiosity is a big driver for me. And you want to make it so that those people are comfortable in talking about about what they know because you mentioned, you mentioned earlier. How there are, you know, there are people who may keep what they know to themselves because they're worried about what other people might think of it. Or what, why do people want to hear what I have to say?
Yeah, but can you imagine if everyone thought that way we'd all just be silent all the time and that be a shame. Yeah, be a real shame. I agree. I love that. You picked up kind of your personal Journey with regards to how you go into engineering and we want to pay it forward in a different way to the Young Generation now and Foster that Curiosity within them I haven't met anyone that has created a children's book based on what they've experienced. What was that?
Just a random thought like I'm gonna really pay forward in this or were you inspired? It by something. How did it become a children's book? I first wrote the book. Well, when I first wrote the book, I actually was curious about the question that I was
asking. And so, I did some research to figure it out and I when I first and then I put that in a book form, but then I thought about could this book have a larger meaning and it really was about being comfortable asking questions and Kids becoming more comfortable doing, so means that they become adults that are more comfortable doing. So I can remember becoming a this first. I remember that first job that I had that first performance
review. Like my boss said that I never took initiative and the crazy thing is I was never brought up to take initiative. I brought up to wait to be told what to do. It wasn't to ask questions and and to come up with Solutions, it was to do what I was told. I mean Like, I told you I became an engineer because my father said I should, and I carried that all throughout my life up until that point to that, that performs interview. And that made me think, you know, other people expect me to
ask questions. I don't think people expect me to show initiative and do things on my own and not wait for others to tell me what to do. Well, maybe this is something that I should look into and that really started a new journey in my life. Yeah, that's really cool. Actually, I've never really thought about how I was brought up and how that kind of translates to what I'm doing now. But one of the distinct thoughts I had, was when I said I couldn't do it.
I couldn't do something. Yeah, my parents, specifically, my mom wouldn't accept that. So she would always figure out a way for me to still do it or enable me to figure it out, myself, which has been a big driver throughout my journey as well, but I did kind of get pushed in that That realm of our, your really good analytically. So, these are kind of the career options, and it wasn't like, I
didn't start with a blank slate. I always have that in the back of my mind, going into a university or an educational Journey. That that was what I was good at, which means I would also be good in that in the future. But on the same end it could have been something completely different. I could have been more creative or a different aspect of my life could have shined brighter which meant that I then went on the wrong career path.
I guess. You know, Patrick when it comes to even people becoming Engineers, actually, I wrote a LinkedIn post about this, maybe a few weeks ago, and in high school, you very well, could have a teacher or guidance counselor, say you're good at math, you're good in science. Go into engineering and I think a lot of people may very well take that advice. Yeah, but there's two sides to that coin, just because you're good at math and science, doesn't mean you should be an engineer.
We do you want to actually go through the curriculum? Elam, that's required to become an engineer. Are you interested in doing the classes? Once you become an engineer, you get your this engineering degree and you are you willing to do the work that Engineers typically do when you enter a field because you're interested in it and you're willing to do the work.
And if you don't have one of those two things, you likely won't stick with it. And so the idea of just because you're good at math and and or science you should go into engineering, I don't think it was, right? You really need to look at Whether this is something you want to pursue as opposed to just I'm good at math. This is something I should pursue. Yeah yeah I completely agree with that. Maybe I could have thought of it different cuz I also thought it would be easier. Right?
It's easier getting better at what you're already good at it's harder honing, something really a skill that you're not really good at in the first place because it's it's motivating when you get better at it when you see that progression and that progression will be slower. If it's not suited for you You. But if you want to do something, actually do it on a day.
To day thing, whether it's your professional job, or even a hobby, what comes with that is putting in the work and if you don't want to put in the work then you're not going to make it. It's pretty simple. It's kind of a fair trade-off in that way. Oh II. Highly agree. And that's why you may very well. See, drop-offs of people who were engineers and aren't Engineers anymore. I'm not saying that all of them leave because they never wanted to be Engineers from the first
place. But I suspect a subsection of those people who leave absolutely are leaving because they never wanted to be an engineer in the first place, but they were told in school. You're good at math, you're good science, be an engineer but just because you're good at something. Doesn't mean you want to work in it? Yeah, I agree. Like right now I don't have any kids yet but that's a lot of food for thought when I do have them to kind of. Make sure they're that Horizon is Broad, right?
It doesn't have a baggage that they carry with them from. Professors of from people, having said to them, you're really good at this. So you should do this for them to allow curiosity to drive them and figure out them their options for themselves. I think that is a healthy mindset for someone that is still in that phase. 100%. I mean, when I talk about even my children's book, one of the other goals of it is for kids to consider stem fields or the
technical field. Is that the tell them go into the stem fields, are in to encourage and we're promote stem. I just want them to see it as an option. Yeah. And then when you see it as an option then you make a more informed decision as to what you want to do. But I'm definitely not a fan of people telling kids, we need more people in engineering become an Near. Yeah, I like that a lot because the worst thing you have and it's still I mean throughout your professional Journey as
well. If you don't know, something is an option. You're not going to go for that. So allowing people and sharing what the options are allows them to make a choice, right? I love choosing from a menu of options because I can pick and choose based on first my personal preference, then the context that I mean if someone says this is it and you got to do this and something in me just Rebels and I'm like, No, that doesn't doesn't feel great.
Yeah, I was just having the conversation with someone. That's maybe it's a few days ago and he asked no, it was just yesterday actually. And he was telling me about a friend that he had in college, the friend had parents who wanted him to do engineering. So he started off as an engineering major, but he was always more interested in video production, okay? And the person I was speaking to also was interested in video production.
So the friend would often help the person I was speaking to with his Video production projects just as a side hustle off of in addition to the his engineering studies, eventually he got the courage to leave engineering altogether and go into video production and his parents weren't all that happy about it but at least now he's working in video production. He's doing what he actually likes to do and ultimately you live your life for yourself, not for the expectations of others.
Yeah. I love that you live your life for yourself. Not the expectations for others. I think that's a huge Mantra that people either don't know or they don't realize it right. Because man, especially coming off University. I was like I'm gonna pick a job and that's going to be that. That thought and even earlier on that thought that you have to pick and then choose and then probably stick with it because then it makes sense, right? You really specialize in, you get better at it, that's a
notion amongst kids. And as an adult, when I actually did start out, I was like, no, I'm going to start out really Broad and I'm going to try out a lot of things and then I'm going to figure out what I don't like and I'm going to figure out what I do like and then navigate towards what I do. Like right somehow there's a disconnect in what we educate kids or the notion that is amongst them. In that, they have a lot of choices.
They have freedom, and they have time to spend on choosing and figuring things out and you don't have to know everything from from the start. Because man, if everyone knew everything from the start, it be let it be a bit more boring as well. I think 100% And A, you know, when you're talking Patrick gave reminded me of coding boot camps. So, I've had a number of guests on my podcast who've went to coding bootcamp.
Stay Turn it off their working lives as anything, but coders anything but programmers, but they eventually thought you'd eventually developed that interest went to a coding bootcamp. And now they work as software engineers at some of the bigger companies in the world. But they started off in something completely different and I like the idea of that because he's coding boot camps exist, becoming a software engineer isn't out of the realm of Mobility. Because that's not what you
started doing. When you were 18 years old, graduating from high school, you were able to come to it later in life and in an affordable and efficient way able to migrate or transition into something else. That something else being software, engineering, these coding boot camps that are popping up all over. At least here in the US. I think they're they're a godsend to many. Yeah, I agree. I love that, it's not required to have. A formal education to do,
whatever you want to do, right? A lot of information is out there for free, and I think that is especially true in the tech sector. Whether you want to be a software engineer data engineer data scientist more High over with regards to Agile, scrum or evil people and processes, right? It may go and go on YouTube and you can find a video about a lot of things. The problem is Yeah, everyone can do that. Which also means the quality varies.
So what those code boot camps offer, then hopefully, I mean, I haven't actually followed through with them well but what I hope they would promise is that it's of high-quality, right? That if you follow through, do the coding bootcamp, you are apt enough to start as a junior somewhere or to start with in a field that you actually want to pursue. And I think that's an amazing option for people that want to transition. It's an amazing option for people that want to start.
And I of to have options, right? It might not be the best option for anyone, everyone, but it's a great option for a lot of people. Aren't absolutely. And what's great about it is, it's at least in the u.s. University or college is quite expensive. So, it offers voice less expensive, way of getting the education, you need to enter into an industry.
And I don't see why you would forgo such an option, you get to make the same amount of money, potentially as someone who went to University, but you don't have the crippling student debt of someone who went to University. Yeah, I agree. I think I shared this before the show, but in the Netherlands here, it's you don't go that much into debt versus the us when you go to university.
I think that's why code bootcamps are little bit less prevalent, what we do have here is more of an incubation, which is exactly the same as a coding bootcamp for a longer period, but then through that program you get placed into an organization. And you already have your first job. So their job is to coach you and to guide you You and also to place you immediately at a company, which is even one step further. It's another option on the menu that you can take, which is
really cool. Yeah. Yeah. More options. The more, the more ability you have to pick something you actually like absolutely. Absolutely. I I want to round it off there. Neal. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your take on public speaking. Your personal journey in there as well. I love hearing about how you created the book and why you created that? Well, is there anything you still want to share? Well you mentioned that I have a podcast.
I also have a YouTube channel if you want to check them out. The the YouTube channel link is YouTube teach the geek.com and then you can actually get access to the podcast from the YouTube channel and it's called Teach the geek. Teach the geek is the the podcast and YouTube channel are all about tuck talking about the public speaking journeys of people in the tech industry or just in the technical Fields. There's quite a number of About public speaking.
But as Niche does mine is I don't I don't know of any and if there are I really would like to learn about them. But it's really interesting to hear the stories of people like myself, people that come from the technical Fields have to give presentations. And what did they do to get better at it? Did they do they have a process for giving their presentations? Do they ever get nervous? How did they deal with their nerves? Just learn the, the answers to some of these questions.
As even helped me and getting better at giving. Presentations because it provides perspectives that I never thought before. So I release episodes every Wednesday and if you care to check them out. Awesome. I'm going to put all the links to your podcast and your channel as well in the description below. I've checked out a few and I know of the uniqueness of each and every one story in how they prepare what they've overcome or even kind of the field they
transitioned into. I've listened to a few and you actually have a lot of seniority over me with the girls, the podcast hosting as well, which is really cool man. I loved seeing how you're already on episode 200. Something, I think that's super amazing. Thank you. I mean it's fun to give you the interview so it's definitely not something that is a chore for me. Pod fate is quite a thing.
For those of you that don't know, pod fate is starting a podcast under realizing how much work they typically are. They are they can be and then stop in the podcast. But I've been pretty consistent with them and every week I seem to be able to pull one out so I'll continue to do them. Also, we just had a little bit of a connectivity issue, but we're going to round it off here guys. New Thomson. I'm going to put all his links in the description below. Check him out.
Let him know you came from us and thanks for listening. We'll see you in the next one.