Programming languages, Work Cultures Abroad and finding Joy with Abdullah Zaiter

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio and if you're interested in programming language different work, cultures and finding personal fulfillment. This episode is for you. Joining me today, my friend, my colleague, abdullah's iter is a software consultant over here at CBA and he does mentorship. He's a software engineering Mentor, over a deep e-list dot, org up. All his socials in the description below.

Check em out. Let em know you came from a show and with that being said enjoyed this episode, I always wonder is

because I pitch projects that I've been on for like someone that's going to come on that project right? And I can still be there but sometimes I have to leave to a different project. So I pitched action to you. I don't know how anything came across or like if it was what I said it was gonna be but how was kind of that experience where you glad that you joined action? Or was it did I kind of sell it to you too much? Yeah. So answering the last question. Let's start with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Am I glad I joined I action. For sure. 100% this clearances. I would say one of the most significant technically pick a project that is selling well in one country, but then make it work and another country expand it. And then the other country have different languages and then it involves different laws, different tax types, different challenges. And yeah, at first when you pitched it to me, I was like whoa, everybody is leaving the project and now this is on my plate.

Yeah, we actually, I don't know if you remember. We had that discussion about it. The project having front and yeah I know. I know. Oh boy back in engineering. I don't know. I don't know. This kind of stuff. Yeah. Then you're like yeah let's see. I think you'll get over it. But overall it was night and you repeated the word crashing. The kpi is like three times and that bitch. Okay. I don't remember exactly what I said.

Yeah. But yeah, overall it's it was and it is still being a really nice experience. Yeah, I like as a project a lot, actually, because things were simplistic enough to kind of grasp pretty quickly. And I felt like I could add value really quickly as well. Exactly. Yeah. So sometimes you have the deadline part of it. So commitment to stakeholders, they were expecting something and then changes in the structure of the people and the

project happen. And then I would say the challenges in this kind of situation are not really. With the technical part. So of course, I didn't know a lot of front end, but I didn't feel at any moment that I was struggling because of front end. Yeah, the bigger challenge was managing expectation and then making it work for their deadline to launch in Belgium. Yeah. And this is the challenge and in every consultancy work you'll have this kind of challenge, right?

That's the idea of consultancy. Yeah. But sometimes the technology challenge, you're like, I don't know what is happening. I don't know how to react works. Like you have to dive into The technology and really get a fundamental understanding. And I felt like things were very simplistic and therefore, you could add value pretty quickly.

Like, even though with minimal front end knowledge, I feel like you could get stuff done just by looking at how things were done in the first place and then kind of, yeah, retracing the steps of doing it as well or otherwise, calling it a nanny.

And I really like, help me out. Shout out to him. Yeah, exactly. I've called him many times on the same project. Yeah that's that's always a lot of fun. Now it's actually funny because I think some some days ago we had the new situation with the front and thing. Yeah. And I really I was involved in many operational problems, you know like answering legal stuff compliance. And then I was like okay guys, the other team members?

Okay guys, I can't really enter this technical issue and really help now. Yeah but there are these other topics but there is good or not. It is an honest contact and please talk to him. He knows a lot about front end and then I sent him a message and he was like, yeah. Yeah action again, of course. Yeah, exactly. But he probably helped them out. Yeah, he did. Yeah. Good stuff.

My good guy. One of the questions I had is because I I saw your background and you have like, I don't know if you've done C++ but definitely caught me in and the jvm stack and then you want to go and the first time I had that, I also pitched a go project to someone and they were really enthusiastic. And I don't know if that's about my pitch or the language or any of the project details.

But in any case, after a few months, they said I don't like the Which I want to run away like this is not for me, I miss, I miss things I had in other languages and I've always thought that was kind of odd and I get it because some people really love the language. They're right in. I'm just not the same. Like what was your experience moving to go in that way and using it in production?

Yeah, like first thing, first first I wouldn't say I moved in to go I would say I'm using go. Yeah, so I'm using going out, doesn't mean that I don't use cotton and Inside projects doesn't mean that I don't use C and C++ in my embedded iot project at home. Yeah. So yeah for me it wasn't really a big deal it still isn't? I like the Simplicity of go and coming from many compiled languages background like C C++. I get I got to understand go pretty easily and how things work and go.

Yeah. And it's totally different than how jvm would be done. So I can understand the frustration of someone who Only wrote kotlin and Java jvm based languages their whole life and then having to switch to to go. Yeah, that was the case. Yeah, and then it might be tricky and then you can use your word, which is literally moved to go. It's not like using one extra tool anymore. Exactly. Yeah. So for me, it was really nice.

It's one more programming languages that I'm using having the background of background of compiled languages helped a lot, and I don't think I regretted the way I like Goes well because it's simplistic but it's also one of the first languages I got to use in production, so then I don't know if it's kind of always been this kind of honeymoon phase that I keep extending or if I actually like the language because of the language specificities and stuff like that, like have a hard time

figuring out which one is which, but in any case, I like the language. So I kind of stick to it.

So now a question, do you think can you think of a project or an application in which you think? Okay, I don't think I would pick. Kick goal line for this. And I would go for a jvm language. I mean, then I might not even. So, first of all, I don't think. I know what the benefits are of jvm languages versus go.

I don't think I have a good grasp on that, but when it comes to custom versus something off the shelf, like if I were to have a start-up and I would have an e-commerce thing and I would sell something. I don't know if I would use something that I would write myself or just get, like a Shopify thing and get up and running faster like that. That is the only way where I would be like. Okay. But then it's then it's like

customers off the shelf. Yeah, yeah, but language-wise, I don't know what I would really like use a jvm language or Frisco in our example that I wouldn't say a very very good or clear example. But for me now getting work like getting enough time of production work with go. Yeah. And having worked with jvm before I would say, When your business logic and business rules, really get Harry and complicated, and more and more detailed jvm languages, tend to be really like they were made

for that. Okay, so when you have a simple project, for example, when we talk about action, of course, it's a very significant project but the flows of themselves that business logic itself is e-comm, yeah. His logic was pretty common, it's established. Yeah. And in that specific project, we built things in a way that it doesn't need a lot of complexity. It was Simplicity first.

Yeah. But then if you talk about more complex system, like payment processing and detecting frauds detecting risks and yeah, not talking about the performance side of it but really the business logic side of it. I would say jvm languages. Can be really nice to use in this kind of case because they provide tool set that is built to support. These kind of very deep complex business logic. Interesting. Meanwhile, in do I think it's more to solve things in a nice

and simple way? And then a fast way? It could be. But what about the toolbox makes it. So that you can leverage complex business, logic better, and language. Yeah, so there are many Concepts.

In object orientation, for example, that you try to mimic them and go, but you don't really have them like inheritance different kinds of thought of of default, implementation, for argument's default implementation, for interfaces, actually also in kotlin and this kind of stuff ends up handy when you have different business logic complexities and situations. Meanwhile in go, even the most simple error handling is. The pure if error else? Yeah. Do this or do that which is

simple. Easy to understand. What when your business logic grows a lot, you can have like nested error checking or like lots of if error, if error, if error or every step, yeah, which can look nice and another language, and you look nicer and another, and another one with, with those kind of examples, I would love to see the both side of things, right? Because then, you can have one Way, or you think of one way how to do it and go?

But maybe there's another way as well, or maybe you can decompose it and make it simpler even so. So that might be a nice blog post actually to figure out like then what the differences are and when to use which in which instance or what you can leverage from a language versus not the other language. Yeah. Yeah, if you have a go Guru, they might have even have their own magic ways into approaching

these problems. Like yeah, that object orientation stuff that doesn't exist in go for example, or are Error handling in a way that is more. Straightforward and easy to read. I thought you were going to use elegant. Is that exactly? Yeah, I like that. A lot actually. I mean it's just it's the

language that I've used for the longest and I feel like it's more comfortable for me to pick up that language and be effective and add business value. The kind of learn a new language because you also have technical challenges with regards to that and I feel more comfortable with it. Not just because of the language because of the value I can add right. Like I know how fast someone Going to be and exactly kind of what needs to be done. And then it's more.

So figuring out business logic. What actually we need to do in this domain and I can do multiple versions of it, I can iterate faster. And then I think the end result of that would be better. Hopefully, that's the idea. Yeah. So when you are from what I hear from you, when you are putting a project using go will make your time to Market much shorter. Yeah.

Because, you know, it's a lot and this is very suitable for kinds of project and which you really Need to go fast and then which you really want to don't lose the opportunity of the market. Yes. You want to put it live and you are the only developer but I have very good example. So for example in Jordan, I worked there for some time in the past and you have always to take into consideration. What is the country you are in?

And what is the market you are and proposes in developers dotnet, there is the biggest thing. So, If you decide that tomorrow, okay, I'm gonna going to write my application and go and Patrick. For example, leaves might spend six months, trying to find another Patrick who writes go to complete, what? Patrick started even in a fast way. But people there use mostly dotnet and jvm languages.

So, of course, in the Netherlands, there are many go programmers and in Euro, but if I am in another place, I would have a different approach and choosing my language, even if I knew go. So, if I am now in Jordan, and I know go I'll choose jvm or.net because I know that this product must live after I leave. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I like that answer also because as a consultancy company, that is what you should

take into account, right? If you build a project and we build as consultants, somebody needs to go back into the organization and if they don't have the expertise of the Technologies, you've used either you need to teach it to them and take them with you. We need to you need to choose something that they already use. So it can organically grow back into the organization. Exactly. I think that's the best answer. It's mostly using what your

organization already. Can leverage it knowledge that they have because otherwise you need to upscale and that is can be expensive or hire people and train them? Yeah. We see one more experience that lies. Yeah. Sounds familiar. Yeah, is it seems definitely familiar. I mean, time to Market is always

a factor, right? It's interesting that you use that as an argument as well, because I feel like somehow in every organization that I am there's always that Lights and somehow they all someone always says okay. This is the deadline and then those always a question of ok so really a deadline but sometimes it's really a deadline and then speed is really something you need to leverage and I think building blocks things you can get off the shelf or really

going to help with that. And then obviously the tool that you're most comfortable with barring that I can fit into the organization and the ecosystem as well. Of course. Is then what you leverage if you

like? Then it's also bringing up the question. Like, how can a new language, kind of get a foot in the door then because if you use, what, Has established make sense because then it can grow organically. Software is a long-term game but then let's say if there's a new language even goes kind of new ish. Rust is newer. There's not a lot of new languages. They're all kind of tens of years old but we call that and you know Joe mode. I've never heard of that.

No no they closed. Yeah the Python Killer they call is it it started. Maybe I've also heard of Julia and some other option. Julie has more than 10 years. Yeah. I think yeah but in any case how does a new language then kind of get Established in the first place. So don't think that changes

much. Well. I think for every language like of course you can expand in the future and be multi-purpose language but you need to solve some neat so you can be it even applies to people like if you want to grow and get credibility and get trust, probably you need to know something very well and I think languages can have the same logic. So if I would I know it's kind of funny but if I would propose a programming language tomorrow, I think about okay what is something specific?

And then each that I would like to solve. Yeah. And then based on that, I would study different types of programming languages that started recently. And why did they succeed? So, for example, go, I would pick groovy for example, which is I don't think that old and it's like, it's taking off. And I would say, okay, how, what was their plan, what did they solve first? And how did they expand?

So also python for example, and based on that, I think the idea of a new programming languages can can happen. I think Mojo, for example, I looked at it pretty recently, they are, they are creating a programming languages that would solve that type issue in Python. Yeah, which is okay, seems nice. They have an H, they're trying to do it, I don't know if it will take off. But it is definitely a way to sell your programming language. Interesting.

Yeah, do you pick up or try out new languages like frequently is that a thing you do because it's not a thing I do. And let me tell you that well for thank for languages that I'm really interested and passionate about. Yeah, I say yes. So for example, I've wrote python for a lot of time so when I heard that someone is going to kill python, I was like, let me see who that person is. Let's see, what about this? Yeah.

So I literally went to their website, Early Access bird, blah, blah, put my email there, and then I got access. Yeah, and then yeah, just made some prints. I don't feel that this language is going to be for me, but if it takes off, I know about it. Now. Yeah, I can imagine interesting. You keep tabs on like what

happens in the ecosystem as well. Like how do you keep tabs? They have newsletters. You don't read it a lot. So friendly definitely. Yeah. I don't subscribe to newsletters. No read it definitely is. Way to get the latest. And that's that's it for me. Okay. We should do a poll in our unit to see how many people like keep tabs on stuff on Reddit or if people do newsletters and stuff like that. I know I got addicted to to read it.

Yeah. When I randomly started putting on my Google search like, you know, brackets with read it at the end because now I trust this community, I know they have really the nice diverse answers with multiple points of view so I literally do it. Now, my Google search Yeah, it's

interesting, right? Because it's like a like that, it's kind of a decentralized form of information gathering and then because of the discussions it also has like a quality level attached to it. He gets a lot of up votes or there's a lot of like controversy you're like what is this? Might be interesting to know of or it might be of high quality and then it pops up and read it. Now, the question is, why do you think Facebook?

For example, is not Reddish because you have posts. Yeah, you have comments. You have people who can like you, you can actually put angry now on the comments so you can show positive, or negative reactive to anything. That is put there. Yeah. But we don't feel the same about positive as a base about Facebook, as a base of knowledge, like we think about rather. I don't know.

I don't know. Facebook, that well, like, I wasn't I was never on Facebook. I've never had a Facebook account, if that makes sense in any Case. But Reddit for me it was more so Nomis. You don't have any images, there's no you don't know who that person is and therefore, their voice versus another voice is just the same like this. It's a voice and the people that are well, spoken in written form, they maybe get upvoted, that's higher quality. But it's not about their looks.

I think the anonymity of it plays a big factor and in Facebook, there's a person there and a person that has a controversial opinion. All of a sudden is putting themselves in a vulnerable position so they might not do that. That they might more conform on the norm that is out there already. And I don't think on Reddit, that's the case. I think, the point you mentioned is very good, which is like giving giving equal vote for everybody because no one knows

anyone. Yeah. Another point is Now, that you mentioned being anonymous, which is a very good point. I think, when I read a comment on Reddit, I don't think about the person who wrote it as like someone is seeking credit for that or credibility because I don't even know who that person is. Yeah, meanwhile if you have the same comment coming from a person with a name and then a photo on a post. Yeah. You might think. Yeah, that guy probably is, I don't know.

Acting self-righteous or yeah. Trying to preach something judge them. A lot based? How they Look based on their history, something like that. Probably, that might be the reason indeed. And I whenever I'm talking about something I saw on Reddit, I never know the name. I don't know who's behind. I said I always say a person already wrote something Opie. Exactly that's it. There is no way. Yeah, you'll be. Yeah.

That's very interesting though. I don't know where it's trending, but there was this thing.

I don't know if you've seen it on subreddits, they're making it a lot harder to use. For example, the AI chatbots that they have. Have to automate some stuff on Reddit all of a sudden they need to pay now and those communities are kind of well you can say endangered because they don't have the money or the time to then actually put in the effort and uphold the same level of quality. Yeah, there's like a few days they call it like a dark

something that people agree. Okay. On these days we're not going to post, there's not gonna be any traffic that's going around on subreddits now. So you mean the Bots that moderate sometimes the subreddits I'm not quite sure but some communities will have to pay for something. They don't have to pay right now. Okay. Yeah. And it's kind of a protest. I saw a lot of subreddits post like, okay this is this is what's going to happen. No one is going to interact.

There's going to be another edit strike or something I think so. Yeah. It was like I'll show you after I get, it's like across multiple subreddits. I don't know when it's happening, but I don't expect, I'll see a lot of posts there. Yeah.

But come on, like, I see some random bots on Reddit and I'm like, like someone is hosting this boss. Yeah. The idea of the whole bot is literally to crawl. Read it. And see if someone wrote paid with payhd or wrote it with PA ID and then I'm like, yeah, I know. Correct. Your someone's paying for that. Yeah. No, I agree but there's a lot of cool stuff as well. I'm trying to think of an

example. I mean it's it's like if posts get created to categorize them, which are archived them in a scandal, a so they're more findable in that way. Those are the more like simple examples of seen. I'm a lot of like anime subreddits. So when a new episode gets posted, they make like a discussion post immediately and people people go in there and discuss things. I love that I love reading.

I don't really post though. But yeah, that's kind of my Reddit experience I I post when I have questions. Yeah, I would say so yeah. if I'm moving to a country Netherlands, for example, and I came here just went to subreddit Netherlands. That's this is yeah this is my salary package. I intend to live here and there and yeah. What do you think? Would it work? Am I going to make it? And then you hear all kinds of the spectrum of people since like xenophobic till I don't know.

Yeah. It's all right exactly. It's really nice. Did you get did you get some good advice though? Through that? Yeah actually about like where to live at least that first word. To find the first apartment which places not to look for a partner to not get scammed. Oh, really? Yeah, it was good.

This stuff and where'd you live before Brazil Brazil from went to an actually, like all your childhood naturally. The last time I went to Brazil is on University, so 2014 till the end of University and then covid happened. Yeah. And then started traveling around the world. Think of it, I got plucked down and Okay. We're like one year and a half. Yeah. So that's a long period. Yeah, that's true. That that was really, really

funny. I like both tickets to travel or one week or two weeks to Jordan. Yeah, and then when I bought the tickets, covid-19 the thing. Okay. It was like, October twenty nineteen. So yeah, one was really talking about it. Seriously. But the tickets were for March 2020, which is when things started. Oh yeah, I've been eating. Yeah, exactly. So So I traveled, I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna cancel my ticket. People are saying that, it's not

that big of an issue. Yeah, and then it's really funny because I was like, I traveled from result today, UK. And then from the UK to Poland from Poland to Jordan. Hmm. And it was literally me Landing in a country spending some time. Seeing some things one or two days and then country declaring lockdown. Yeah. Me like having Toronto another country because it was At that time, Italy was being the most

dangerous one. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I think I left Poland. Like three or four hours before they literally declared total lockdown. That's insane. Insane. You could have been locked down in Poland. Yeah. And it would have been six months. Yeah, exactly. And then I went to Jordan and five days after I arrived. I was supposed to stay for two weeks and then go back to Brazil. Yeah. Five days after I arrived and then it's like a lockdown and went phone. For months months.

Without any flights getting out? That's insane. Kind of crazy. Were you working at the time as well for the same company? Yeah, we're different companies. Yeah, I used to work remotely even before covid. So I was working for the Brazilian Adian, its Payment Processing Company. Nice.

And yeah, I used to work remotely from Brasilia, they are based on Deal Janeiro. Yeah, so yeah, it wasn't really a big deal if I'm working in Brasilia or if I'm working on the other side of the world I'm not. The office. Anyways, exactly. So it was okay as long as I am in the commercial hours of Brazil. So I had like, one year of working the midnight they have. I was gonna ask. Yeah, that's, that's a rough one actually. Yeah, I think it was a nice experience is different, for

sure. Yeah. While being locked, they're gonna go anywhere anyway. Exactly. Nice.

Now, that you've kind of, I mean, you've moved to NL like, is the work experience different culture wise? Was it similar to what you had in in Brazil? I would say there are similar things and there are different things. I've also worked in a company based in Jordan. Yeah, I've also provided services to a company based in the US and then you widen your spectrum. A lot about academics has.

Yeah. And, but about your question and I'll in Brazil specifically, I would say yes, and It is less different than other countries comparing between each other. So of course, it's different. But you have bigger gaps. If you compare other cultures between each other's, what would you say? Like the biggest Gap is in between which countries funny enough, I would say the US and Europe, really? Okay? I'll say their approach to work. Work life balance like work

ethics is totally different. So even this is more like stringent and Europe is more relaxed because that's what I hear. I think it also depends on the country in Europe. Yeah. But I've always heard like Americans complaining about Europeans not working enough. Yeah. I'm too many holidays. Yeah, then and then I've always heard European saying that Americans act as if they are working a lot. But they're always drinking coffee on the coffee machine. So it's always both sides of the

combat out. I would say it's the cat. They got the biggest Gap that I saw is between these two work, ethics and work-life balance has Did your own work style or work life, balance change. Also because of that because you're kind of in an environment in your conv beholding, the culture they have. Yeah, I am Pro immersion so II. Don't like to, of course, there are always your personal boundaries and like things that you would never let go of.

Yeah. What on the things that are negotiable and like your work style your, I don't know, work-life balance. I am totally Pro looking how it works here. And then trying Top. Yeah especially if you think about it as joining at a new team, I think every single team is different, they have their own style, they won't even their own culture depending on the composition of the team. Yeah and generally if you join a team probably you will have to adapt to the team style.

Yeah exactly. And then just scale it up and then add up to that work-life balance of the country or the work style of the country or the culture of the country. Yeah, I don't have that many experiences like from a

consultancy point of view you go. Two different organizations. But they've always been. I think they've always been an out based, there was one that was more. International was based in the UK, I guess. And I built a platform that was going to go live in Japan. But the people I interacted with, we're still the people in NL or the UK in that aspect. So never actually got more so immersed in the work culture of somewhere abroad, but I do think it could be interesting.

Give me an interesting perspective. Think about it this way, only 14. Paid time to take holidays. Yeah. Only 14 days as rough. Yeah, that's this is outside the norm in the u.s. Yeah. So this is all if you don't even need to know about that amount of hours, you don't need to know about the work style about when do you receive an email? And when are you expected to answer that email? Just like your vacations is enough. Indication on how to compare the different work Styles. Yeah, exactly.

And the customer I'm working with. Now they told me how many vacation days 38 and I was like what? Because then you do the calculation and you're like, like seven weeks this month, seven weeks. Plus you have public holidays? Like, that's a good deal. Yeah, that's like that's a good idea. I think asml was like 40 days, really, that's insane. Like, I think it's, it says a lot when the numbers like 38 or 40.

With an unlimited because with unlimited that's all of a sudden, like, AA. If you take a holiday people look at you. Are you taking a holiday? Okay. Interesting. You're taking advantage of the system exactly. Like you take you using that a limited and well yeah I'm using the unlimited. What do you mean? No, apparently people look at you weird then so I don't know if it's a tactic. I've never seen this proposal of unlimited PTO here. Mmm in the Netherlands.

I think, I don't think they have it. I was gonna say Microsoft has it, but I don't think they do. I've only seen The u.s. actually interesting. Yeah, I've seen some researchers showing the average. No one that's always anyway. Not like no one thinks about holidays anymore but no one is taking more holidays than before after yeah, some dangerous stuff but it sounds good.

It's like you get a choice, you want unlimited or you want like a fixed amount you like unlimited soap, when it actually happens and you feel kind of this. Yeah. How do you say that hurdle to actually take holidays? Then? Maybe the question is, you want unlimited holidays or You want a raise? Yeah, that could be as well. I'll take a raise very funny if you have the option, but before we spoke and you said in uni you didn't actually do like

software. Engineering. We mechanical engineer electrical Catherine X mechatronics. Yeah. So you built robots and stuff. Yep yeah eventually yeah yeah. Competed internationally 1 H, what robot did you build a so many of them. I think in total I've built more than nine. Functioning robot. It's yeah, but the highlights were a robot, that was a firefighter. So basically you have a maze that had that can have different compositions. Mmm. And then you'll need to build a

totally autonomous robot. So it's not like controlled by you. Yeah, the robot should be intelligent enough to navigate through the maze but also the robot should find a fire source and then put the fire down and You could get points to put the fire down through wind just by blowing air on it, but also you could get more points if you use water, which is more realistic to real life fires.

Yeah. So if you choose water, of course you're going to get into more complexities which is like making your robot waterproof because you'll have water in it. And yeah, I want to get screwed and we're not like using pre-built stuff or literally like making 3D modeling of the devices and then over the Structure of the robot and then making all the electronical, designs printing them out, and then using them and any drop of water can make a huge mess. Yeah. You did the modeling as well

here. So we were a team. Yeah, more people were more specialized in the mechanical part. More people are more specialized in the mechanical part electronics and there are some people that are more specialized in the programming. I always enjoyed more programming. Okay? So I was more into programming

these robots. Embedded programming, so C, and C++, yeah, but yeah, for many of them, I was also totally involved in the electronics and mechanics because I've been the captain of one of the teams, okay? Then you have to really put everything together and try to help everybody in any issue that appears.

Yeah, why did you move away from that? Because I already tell my younger self like you can either build robots or like the stuff that we do now it's like consultancy. Talk you go to clients, solve their problems, they're probably pick the robots. I think the way you put it is the problem, it's not really the different applications. If you put a few explain it to a kid as like, okay? A robot but then you explain it

as, okay? I'm going to build you a magic box that make you choose something from your home and then get it. Get your game or your toy in the next day at your door. Yeah. And then you don't need to worry about that and then automatically it's like, I don't know, Santa Claus appears on your door and then you have it. I might be interested on that which is ecomp basically. Yeah. So it depends on how you sell it to the kid. I would say that's a good point. My point is I liked Robotics and

that firefighter robot we got the third place worldwide for you for it. So we did some really nice stuff on that nice. I've never seen myself looking like at that and thinking. Yeah, now I'm going to let go of Robotics and then I'll do consultancy. Yeah, I've always been like, yeah, I'm in that situation. And what is the best move? So I worked in a payment processor and Brazil as I said and they had many Hardware devices so it has to do with, with what I've been doing,

right? Has Hardware, you need to put the payment card and then it's a POS machine. It takes the money out of the card. Processes it and then gets it. The store owner. Yeah that had to do with robotics somehow because it's an embedded device and but that also has a bridge to e-comm because you are paying for something. Yeah. And this is how it went so from the payment processing stuff I got into e-comm that started working on that and but I've never let go of Robotics or

example in my house. I have some iot projects to I don't know. Measure temperature, turn on lights, turn off lights, made some stuff. It makes a lot of sense. I like that. You you highlight that you never let go of your previous experience in any case, right? Because the experience that you've had you leverage and you can even leverage that in a subsequent assignment or project or job doesn't matter.

Really the experience that you've had you leverage that and you take that with you it's not wasted experience what I was going especially when you talk about go. Yeah. Yeah for sure pointers compiled language like it has totally to do with these other languages. Has that you would use on robots in general. Yeah. You think you'll ever go back then, to more so embedded or iot in that case, I don't like. I wouldn't say, I'll never go back to that.

I'm not sure if I will, but maybe in my own company, I would do something with that. Yeah, you're going to start your own company. I think one day I will that's good. I say that as well. It's on there now. I'm not the only one that has said. It want to be my partner income. Yeah for sure. We can study of ideas, like, do you write down? Because I sometimes do that. Unlike with the signalman a right, make a little note. Well, You have to share them. There we go.

It's not like, it's not about cheering. I'm trying to find the best adult way to put that. So I used to really, really like put a lot of value on ideas. And I think this is my idea, I'm gonna take a note of it and then no one will see it. Yeah. Then I think I got, I don't know. Mature enough to really appreciate more execution than just the idea. And I think engineers in general struggle in this execution, and that's where the joy comes from.

Its and the journey. Yeah, I'm not really into who had the idea of course, If you had a brilliant, if you have a brilliant idea, it can't because it can become something big but what really makes it happen is the execution and for me that's why I don't really think about ideas of business anymore as like, intellectual property that I need to take a note and hide it. And so nowadays, I actually give random ideas and talk about them and I would be super happy to

see them implemented. Yeah. Even if it was by other people I would be really happy to see that because I will appreciate all the Effort that they put in to make it in making it happen. Yeah, I agree with that. It's a, I've had a similar train of thought that I thought the idea was the gold, but it's not the gold, right?

If you if you're thinking about success, is it success? When you achieve something or success because you enjoy the ride and then you can achieve anything, right? That makes someone successful. I feel like rather than the achievements or the accolades that other people put on them, But that's not really what people talk about. I would say both. Yeah, I think. Like, for auto satisfaction, of course, you need to enjoy the

ride. Yeah. And you need to really like what you're doing, but for me, also, it is important to see the results of that impacting other people's life and if you are limiting, it only to enjoying the right. Think about a product, you build? I don't know. Takes you one year to build it. Yeah, you build 90% in your like on the 10th month or like 11th month. Yeah and then okay, you had literally ten months. It's of pure joy because you like what you are doing.

But from my end, I would feel okay. I would like the 10 months that I did, but then part of my joy will be when I finish the 12 months, put it live and see people using it and seeing that the Application or the robot or whatever, I did literally impacted positively, someone's life. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that,

but there's a downside to that as well, right? And I can, I can use like, social media. Are you two even as an example? If with the podcast I get more listeners. I used to be like, look more listeners. Really good. Right. But then all of a sudden you're like I thought 100 this in is was a lot as like which items in a hundred people chimed in to this episode, for example, like

that is ridiculous. And then it raises the bar and all of a sudden The initial hundred doesn't seem like a lot anymore because we're looking at it a different number higher number and I'm always needs to be higher, right? And I like a higher number. None of us are now it needs to be even hotter why wasn't that high? Well we already reached 100 like we're already past that you want this kind of higher high and continues higher high and you

get disappointed. If you go a little bit below that like there's only an onwards and upwards and if you fall below that if you hold value to that, you can actually hit you and call that agreed. Yeah. It It could be greed. I think it has a lot to do with dopamine. Like I'm not an expert but I think it's like a dopamine Spike, but in any case I've decided to kind of more so detach myself from this and be

proud of what we put out. For example, this episode I'm going to be proud of because I like this Dynamic, like this conversation and the previous episodes. I have different sets of values that I hold, and the quality in there as well. So I can be proud of those things. I'm more so proud of the journey that it is still continuing rather than the numbers that are there. And on there that can vary. And in that way, I think I enjoy more.

So, the process now, rather than the numbers that are the output of that, that's the point. I was trying to say, is what you closed with. Yeah, say it I enjoy more. Didn't say I enjoy only exactly. So if you enjoy more of the process, I think you are doing it perfectly. If you are only doing it for the numbers, you're doing it probably wrong. You're not gonna continue with it. No, I think it's going to be very disheartening if the numbers go down.

Exactly. Yeah. So if you are doing it for, Or the process and you enjoy it, you can keep on doing it. Yeah, but you didn't say only for the process. That's true. My point is, there is always a component into a result but I don't think it's healthy to expand that component too much and then keep on thinking about it, I think it's healthy to keep it in mind. Yeah. Also as a measure of your performance, how you are doing and at the same time, enjoy what you heard?

I agree. I think, if you're not like we're talking about results-oriented, I guess. I don't know what you would be if you don't really think about results. Are you then kind of a loose

cannon? It cannot go anywhere because I feel like having an eye on results even though you can have kind of a detached value on their still allows for certain amount of focus, a certain amount of kind of goals that you have on those results, can be output because usually numbers are output, not nursing the outcomes but in any case I think it can be good to keep those in mind as well. I think it depends on how you define result.

Yeah. So you can make your Compass or your direction always into more joy, and then you would like, record record a podcast, and then film it. Go out and try to, okay, how happy I feel now. Yeah, how joyful it was. And then based on that, try doing more of that stuff, or less of that stuff. Yeah. But then Well, that be maintained like sustainable. I don't know, but you can use it as a result. Of course, they're doing your own happiness and that Journey. Yeah, I could be like the funny

thing is after conversations, like these after a whole day, maybe it's because of the day and the conversations, but I am tired, I am exhausted. I don't want to talk anymore. Like, if I go home, I actually don't talk that much anymore. And to, I can handle two on a day, like episodes, like these two is a good day. Three is a Max, because then, After the third one I'm like, oh my God, what me away like I'm done. I'm exhausted. Introvert wives could be. Yeah.

And then I realize into them and I get a lot of joy out of them. I'm like this was actually really good and you don't notice it, but it can be really. Yeah, and then I get that kind of sense of filming again and be like yeah this is why we do it basically or I can see, man, I was exhausted. Shouldn't do three anymore. Yeah, that that's a really good example of a result that you can use. Change your path in your podcast. Yeah. And it's not numbers.

Yeah, you're just hearing yourself and you can see, okay, I wasn't really enjoying that moment. I was exhausted, I've got a lot and then based on that, okay, okay, next time, probably, I'm not gonna do three in one day. Yeah, and that was not numbers at all.

That was part of the journey also. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, and I keep doing that. I feel like if you're not doing that with something that you really love or passion about, maybe you've lost in that sense of Love or passion because I feel like I'm always whenever I do something and I do it for a long, long time. Like I used to play a lot of video games on my mobile phone and I would do that for years.

I also did my thesis on that. I'll tell I'll tell you that after the show actually was a lot on Reddit. That's all I have. Oh yeah. But in any case I would try and be better at it I would go to soccer listen and really try and hold that and when that part of it was gone. I feel like I lost interest that's probably why I also kind of sold my account. I quit at the end of the day because I lost that sense of

passion. And I feel like with whatever you do, you need to have kind of this innate, kind of Drive making it better or kind of reaching fulfillment and fulfillment can be in anything. Some Dopey need to have that. Yeah, yeah, it's unhealthy balance, I would say so many

things that we do, if we do them a lot and up turning into an half into a habit. Yeah. And maybe if it's not something that is really adding a lot of value to your life as a habit after one or two years of doing it like frequently everyday, you'll be like, okay like oh my well, why am I doing that anymore? So for example, let's talk about I don't know. Funny habits going to the gym, for example, mmm, I would say.

If you do it at first, you might be the type of person who would get like high-top, I went to the gym, I feel really better, I like it. Yeah, I'm doing it because it makes me feel feel better and then you do it enough every day, every day, every day, every day for like some years and then eventually turns into a habit and then you don't think a lot of about it. But then, you know, it's beneficial so you don't let go of it. Yeah. But if you think about it, No

game. At first, it was giving you really some nice moments. You are liking it, getting some emotions out of it. And then afterwards, it turned into a habit, a habit, because you did it so much, but then when it became a habit, you look at it. And I'm like, why am I doing this anymore? It's a habit, and it's not adding any value for me. I'm not really getting a lot of it could be like, I also like doing things because I think they gave me a certain sense of

fulfillment. I think that's the part. Like it doesn't have to benefit. You like your life, maybe I guess, because I still enjoy playing video games. Like they make me happy, and I don't have has to do again with dopamine, but they give me fulfillment in a certain way and I know it's not really going to add anything to my real life or anything. Maybe it makes me think more strategically about things. I have no clue what the added benefit of having to go to Anna. Anna sport event.

Exactly, I'm Pete. Yeah, now really lay out some stuff. Activists, some interesting stuff is to be the number two in Europe. Oh, Quit, I never got number one, but in any case it was, I going with that. I think it's fine to do things that you just enjoy that. Give you a certain sense of

fulfillment. And I think some people also kind of can all over optimize their life if they're like, ah, I'm not watching that Netflix show because it's not making me smarter, or anything that I'm like, man, okay, fun to hang around with you. I really like to be around you man. Exact next week. I'll be busy. Like I don't think. He needs to be over optimized. You can do things because you

like them. Yeah, my point about that would be. It's really hard to think about something that gives you like, instant joy and think that you will continue getting that instant Joy forever doing that thing. Yeah. All over. Again, again. Again, that's my point about it. If it's not giving you that Joe anymore, probably, it is a habit. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. I wish everyone that experience that they can have that joy and have it over and over and over again.

Do you feel like you have something in your life in which you've been doing for like years? And I mean, the podcast is that this the only example that comes to mind? I love doing the podcast, not just because like, if it was the same I think it would be boring but because it gives me a lot of opportunities to have

conversations like these. It kind of fulfills this sense of curiosity that I have and I just really enjoyed doing it and then re listening to It even maybe it's because I've always listen to podcast and enjoy that but I feel like even having the sense that I can still improve, this gives me a lot of fulfillment and that I can see that it can go better and that we get better feedback also. Yeah, it's also has a human part

in its right? Every every podcast that you record or film, it's with someone new with the totally different background and then it's a whole different journey and you get different kinds of joy out of it outside. Yeah. He's like a salsa in a way like a cheat code because these conversations sometimes you don't have them in real life. Yeah. And sometimes I meet someone who have only seen in real life physically when I'm doing the podcast and all of a sudden you

go deep in a conversation. You're like, okay I know this side of someone now and someone who they might be friends with, don't don't even know about like this side of town or they might not even have realized. Like the way sometimes, the conversation flows. I'm like hot. This is what I'm actually thinking, interesting because I didn't know that. That's the that's the joy of podcasting. But I think I talked about

podcasts way too much. I think that's a sign that we need to round it off. Okay, thanks so much for coming on man. This was a blast. Was this kind of what you thought was going to happen? I didn't come with expectations actually expectation and for the ride and it was real nice. Was it a nice surprise? Yeah. Good stuff. Cool. Then I'm going to round it off here everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Abdullah's a tear I'm going to put all his socials in the

description below. Check them out. I don't know, you came from our show and with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.