Mentorship, Design and Creative Engineers with Alyona Volkova

Hi everyone, my name is Patrick Akio and if you're interested in mentorship design, creative engineers as well as selfreflection, this episode is for you. Joining me today is Olyona Volkova. She's a Principal Product Designer over at Mobiquity and she's mentored over 100 people and is now mentor over at ADP List. I'll put all her socials in the description below, check her out. And with that being said, enjoy the episode.

You know, this experiments when you like put the person in the room and they can hear only themselves or they go crazy. They wouldn't go crazy if they were just lived by themselves. They could get crazy because they called them. There was a room that's like completely sent room and you could hear your own heartbeat and nothing else. Yeah, there's there was this experiment and people are going crazy. Yeah, because that's that's the silence. Only your heartbeat.

For some reasons it very much impacts. Our mental health, like I feel, yeah. Do you think do you think you would be able to handle that like are? But I'm very curious. Yeah, right. I'm I, I'm a person that gets

really curious as well. Like we we had this kind of workshop with a lot of people and there was this person that was talking about Japanese culture and like being more mindful. That was kind of the his mantra And it was like, OK, make sure your your feet are on the ground, your ground that you're going to close your eyes, put your hands on your lap and you're going to count your breathing. And at the end, I want you to tell me how much breath she took, basically.

And then I was like, OK, I can do this. And I focused on my breathing. It was completely fine. And then at the end, I don't know how long it was. Maybe a minute or so. He was like, how was that? And in my head, I was like, easy done. And other people like, man, it's so hard to focus. And my mind goes everywhere. And I started thinking about work or life or. And I was like, oh, my goodness, maybe I'm like innately more relaxed. But for me, it was easier to just turn my mind off, I think,

yeah. Maybe you are like having really good focus or maybe overall very like Grounded and maybe like Zen. Yeah, but that's how you come across as well. That's why I was wondering like how would you kind of experience that you think? Am I? Am I coming across again? Very relaxed, I feel like. Yeah, I've heard it a lot from people, yeah. And I've heard also from people they have. Like calming, like people feel calm around me. But to be honest, like I am

intentionally calm myself down. I'm overall quite anxious person. So I have anxiety. Yeah. So I I like trying to focus on the real time because the anxiety comes from overthinking about the future. Yeah. So if you think about what's happening right now, you don't think about the future, so you feel calmer. So that's that's what I do like. But I don't know, I think maybe it would work. It's 5050 chance, yeah, but you you actively try to calm yourself down.

Yeah. Now like, that's like something for me and like that I've never done before. So and I do this like as exposure therapy. So there are things that I'm scared or anxious about. Like damn, what if I say something wrong? What if like people, they will feel, they cancel me? Yeah, So. And I intentionally do that to see how it goes. I see how I feel. And I was like, it's actually not as bad. Like, it's just my mind going crazy and you build up a tolerance. Yeah, it takes some time.

With public speaking, Yeah, that's hard because for me it was public speaking, The first public speaking that I did last year, I was in front of my company and that's like, OK, like, it's safe environment for me. I know those people. They're nice. They're a lot of like friends, like in the crowd, like half of them were remote. So I don't see them. Fine, perfect. I was like, it's perfect time for me to practice it. And I went there. And I was so stressed because, like, my gosh.

And again, this is all we're thinking, right? Yeah. Like in reality, there's nothing scary. And I went there and I swear, like, it felt like my soul left my body. Really. And I don't remember anything. Like, I went there. So I was still like, very nervous, like, but I was prepared. Just brain. I went there and I stood up and then it felt like my soul left my body and I was watching

myself from above. It's basically it's called association and and I didn't remember anything like seriously don't remember, but it was recorded so I could watch myself. But a lot of people came after me and said you were so good and you were so funny. Like what was I like, I don't remember, but that was the first

like a very like radical. The next one was a bit better so. I was waiting for this moment when I was like, OK, this is OK. I just started thinking and then some moment in the middle, I just started enjoying it, OK And it was fun actually, that's quite nice. So and then the panel there was I was this year like a few months ago. I wasn't the latest that UX Amsterdam panel and I've never done the panel.

So public speaking, just you preparing the speech, you have the slides to support you, right? You got this. So you it's fine, It's kind of like safer. But here you never know what's going to be asked. It's so random, right? But I was like, oh, it's OK. I don't have to answer. Yeah. Because there are five, I think 41234 ladies in total. So I was one of four like ladies. And they were amazing.

Like, they were very experienced, much more experienced than me. So just, I can just chill if I don't know what to say. I was like, you know what? I don't know. Yeah. So just like, I would go the flow and it was quite fun. And then and we were also like, can I, can I, can I have something to say? Exactly, Yeah. When you're, when you're looking at kind of the footage of you

standing on stage or for example on that panel, do you recognize that still you? Because for me, sometimes I'm like, there's a different person. It's weird, right? Yeah, right. No, I cannot. Like, I I feel so awkward watching myself. Really. I know. It's me. Yeah, that's The funny thing. But it's like, is it is. Because I think we, when we look in the mirror, we're static in a way, right? We don't really move or talk. So we didn't see ourselves talking or moving, yeah.

So how do I know how other people perceive me? How do I move? What what? Like, how do I walk? Yeah, because my aneurysms and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like with the people that you know, you know, even the way if you know them for a long time, you know, the way they walk. Yeah. Right. I have no idea how I walk. Is it, is it good? Yeah, I know. I mean there there is no good or bad. I feel like that's true, yeah. But it's like, I don't know how I walk, like a rapper or something, you know?

Or. It's like tip toes have no clue. Yes, that's funny. I have that same feeling sometimes where I like have this kind of out of body experience where time flies. And I did.

For example last year also for my company, we had like a public speaking event. I did that. And then afterwards, like, I started fixating on all the things that didn't go as great in my mind. And people would come up to me and would say, like, they really liked certain components. And I was like, yeah, but this could have been better or delivery there and blah, blah, blah. Like, I started kind of undercutting myself. And then someone called me out on that. They were like, why are you

doing that? Because basically everyone is giving you these compliments. It's true. And you're trying not to accept them. And for me, that was really, like, confronting in a good way. I was like, yeah, that is what I'm doing. And I should probably not do that because most likely that's not healthy. Yeah. Have you stopped doing that? I try. Like now I'm way more conscious when I'm doing that. I'm trying to accept compliments.

I feel very awkward doing that. Maybe that's the Dutch thing, but yeah, I'm trying to be better there. How do you accept? What do you say? And I try and be more grateful, Like actually, genuinely say thank you And just, I mean, for me it feels awkward. It's weird, right? Saying thank you for a compliment and then feeling awkward about it. I shouldn't feel awkward, but I do. So I try and do that more and yeah, get used to it I feel like. Yeah, yeah, I know the feeling. You do. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Like, I think that's kind of like a self esteem, right. So like the perception of others don't really much with the perception of you. Like I have the same when people tell me a compliment, I feel like so. And I noticed that too, like. Of a colleague of mine, she said, like, it seems like, do you do it for attention? Like do you diminish yourself and say that you're not as good because you're seeking of attention? I was like, do I, That's

actually a good question. Like maybe and intentionally right or like because I I seek for validation, right. We all kind of like a seek for validation bit but because when we get a bit, we feel like we don't deserve it sometimes and it's like a conflict. So yeah, but when I receive it, I was experimenting with replies. I'm saying that thank you. And I was sometimes saying, like, I know, but I was like it feels I feel more powerful when I says like, oh, you look good today.

I was like, I know because I was. I was trying to look at today. Yeah, it but it's just a bit arrogant, right. So it's like, I feel like it's douchey, yeah. Yeah, but at the same time like. I know I put a lot of effort to do that, but I think there is something in it to kind of like, yes, I know I was doing that. I was working really hard for that, right. Yeah. So you kind of like take responsibility by the same. It sounds. Do she? Yeah, yeah.

It depends how you do it. You can say like, yeah, I tried today. Like is different than being like, I know. Yeah, but if you tried it again, you kind of like diminish yourself again. I get that. It's it's funny to me because when when someone said OK, do you do that on purpose? In my head I was like, no, never. But then you were like maybe maybe unintentionally, Yeah, I feel like you're very much. How do you say that introspective in that way and you self reflect a lot.

Do you do that actively? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have.

Because I have anxiety. Anxiety and overthinking go hand in hand. Yeah, and I know that I overthink, but I'm trying now to overthink in a positive way. I don't know if it's a technique or something. I never read about it. But instead of like over thinking what can happen, yeah, I'm trying to over think about what happened. And think where, like, I didn't do as good as I could and try to come up with an outcome as a lesson because I had this pattern in my head when hey,

like, damn, that was a horrible. Like, why did you say that? Yeah, like, like you saw they didn't like it. Or erection was bad. Like how like you're so stupid or something. Like, no, no, no, I don't like this. I don't like this talk. Yeah. So now I was like, OK, I don't like what I said, like let's think about what I did. Reflect on that. What can I do better next time like and in this case, it helps me not to feel guilt like or

blame myself or anything. And the next time I already know what to do because I thought look at that, I analyzed that, yeah. And it kind of like overthinking for good. Yeah, I get that. Is that because those thoughts, those are kind of self reflections for me. It helps when I'm talking to someone about it, when someone says, OK, let's think about last week or the last two weeks, like what? What really stood out to you? What happened?

That kicks off all the gears in my head and then I start self reflecting, right? I start really evaluating what happened, how that made me feel, how I reacted and stuff like that. But for me the other person really triggers that or helps with that. I've never tried to sit down and for example write it's because I don't really like writing that much. Do you have kind of a system that helps you self reflect? I try to write like I was writing a lot when I was a kid.

I think in Eastern Europe where I'm from, a lot of girls write Diaries, but now I forget about it constantly. I like journaling, but sometimes it's boring. So instead I would just every time after I did something, I reflect, yeah, it's already like became a habit. So I often time have calls like at work with my team members when I'm supposed to coach them. And I'm still learning. Like I'm still learning how to be better manager, how to be

better coach. And after that I was like, OK, what do you think you could do better like you said that, Do you think it's the best way to say that? Could you instead maybe less talk and more focus on them and ask the questions? And then I write it down because I also can forget about it easily. And I reflect, OK, next time try to do this, like try to ask questions about them more, because it's also like, it's a part of your job. This is, I have like a vision of who I want to be. Yeah.

And then this reflection helped me to go to the direction who I want to be. I like that a lot.

Yeah, the self reflecting more so when it happens rather than postponing it, right, because then it kind of trickles down because other stuff happens and you might lose the value there. Yeah, I my brain is like, it feels like there are a lot of holes. So I have to write down, I cost like easily forget. So that's just the way my, my brain works. Yeah. So I have to write down the things all the time. I have to reflect on the spot. Otherwise I forget it.

Like everything that we've done, like a week last week, a month, a year ago. I don't remember anything. Like, do you? Maybe that's it. Yeah, yeah, I do. You remember a lot of details, but things stick with me. Really. I feel like I have a really good memory. Ah, how did you do? You know, How did you get it? Did you always develop it? It's always been like that. Like even as a kid I would be like, no, that's not what I

said. And I could sometimes when I would, I would, I could show proof. I would show exactly that what I said was actually what happened. Basically, when I'm wrong, I also admit it because obviously my memory is not perfect, but I do feel like I have good memory. I remember things that people say. I don't know why. That's cool. I think that's really cool. I wouldn't say it's like, how do you say that Photographic memory?

No, that's not it. Because if you give me a sheet of paper, I'll remember a few things. But it's not like a snapshot like some people have. It's just, yeah, some things stick with me, yeah, other things don't. But maybe it's not the visual memory, it's maybe ears, like the, how's it called, like the memory that's come from listening, It could be. And there's also the memory that's coming from experience, right? So when you experience things,

then you know how to do that. Or so you need to have like touch it. For example, like cooking. You can read about recipe. Yeah, you can watch about the recipe on YouTube. Or you can cook it and you'll forever remember it. Interesting. I'm really gonna have to think about which one it is then. If it's visual, kind of auditive or so the experience, that's an interesting one. Yeah, like, I know for me it's

actually visual. Yeah. So I write things if I want to remember, and I have really sophisticated, like, it's really weird memory, but I remember where I put the things. So I have the visual memory to the point I can walk through my apartment in my memory and remember what is I have on every shelf. Yeah, but I don't remember names. What is this? And the numbers if I write a number down. I will remember it like maybe forever. Like the phone numbers that they

have really, ten years ago? That's cool. Yeah, it's still remembered. Does it? Does it work with typing as well or it has to be? Handwritten. Yeah. I think it's with the typing. We don't really focus. I think when typing, it's just like it's a habit. It's like talking, right? Yeah. I don't really think about it anymore. When I type, yeah. So it's the conscious act of writing there. Interesting.

I wanna get into what you're doing more on a day-to-day now with regards to helping people and mentoring people. But before that I saw on your LinkedIn and you also pointed

this out that you were software engineer before you do what you do now. How did you make that transition into what you're doing now? Yeah, just to before I go to this, sure. My experience is very much different from experience now. Like what people experience because I started 10 years ago or so, yeah. The tech world was completely different and the like. I overall, I started to be honest when I was a kid because I was photoshopping a lot when I was a kid.

I was CS2 or something, or CS3, the first Photoshop that I had experience with. So I was having my own business and when I was like 14 or so, editing pictures for money. Yeah, yes, it's just like coins because you don't really need much. And like in Kazakhstan I where I'm from. And like it was like when I was 14, it was like 15 years ago or so, like there was like everything was like a very low price. So and design didn't exist at that moment.

So I was just like you need a picture, you need Avatar. There was a social network I was creating the I've contacted which is Russian social network and I was creating avatars for money. Yeah, if you've ever used Photoshop, there was this ugly stamps. And there was a lot of curves and I was like, I'm gonna put them everywhere. And sparkles, yeah, it was

horrible. But it was my first designs and I left computers and I left dads and I just accidentally kind of ended up with doing Photoshop. But then when I decided that I need to go and study. My family, we didn't have like enough money for the university, so I decided to go to college instead. Yeah, and there was a college that had the cybersecurity and they had also classes with developer like coding. I think it was Java. And I was like, that sounds fun. I love computers building also

quite a lot. Like I was playing games. I was like, I can build my games. And so I went there. That was a lot of fun. I've learned a lot. But there was something is off. It's like not exactly me. So the best class that I enjoyed the most was design. Yeah, we did Photoshop. Exactly. And I was like, I already didn't know what to do. Yeah, I got this.

We're gonna help you to do that. So, and that was like that was Android the most of it. We also had there still on CSS and I was like we're also doing some lending pages and stuff there. I don't remember JavaScript, I think JavaScript existed, but very basic. It's like 2013 twelve, yeah. And then I had to get a job SAP, because I had some family situation and I had to make money from a family for my family. And I asked my teacher, hey, do you have anyone who has a job?

And she said yeah. My friend, he has a startup and okay just go to this store. It's a clothing store that is so close. Go to the basement, that seems. And my friend is there. And I was like okay. So I called him. We agreed and I went there. It was like this closed store was like a very fancy clothes. And then there was a basement and I went down to basement. There was storage of clothes and there were three desks.

And one of them was this guy who had a startup and the other was like, I think he was something between the developer and the marketer. So they had the social media business. So they were like promoting stuff on social media. And I was like, hey, I'm my own, I'm a designer. And I also can code because I was studying it. And I said that's your desk. That's it get. Started Folio interview None. So I just I picked up my own laptop. Of course, because of startup they didn't have laptop.

I said there, and that was my first job and I was doing a lot of like lending pages. I did a lot of banners. There was all the stuff like different types of design, design and implementation. Yeah, because it's not a product. It wasn't product, it was social media. So we didn't really implement but we used we created some like a graphic materials for the social network also again that one social network that I was working was a 14 of conducting. So we're creating some stuff for

that. And I was using some basic coding skills for it. And I also started creating some landing pages. And I loved it. Like creating it was a single sentence and it lived like, it's just like, wow, yeah. And then I decided to move. That said, there's not much for me in Kazakhstan. There was, yeah, there's not many jobs. I decided to move to St. Petersburg. So I moved to St. Petersburg and I was like, I am gonna be a developer because designer, it's not a real job.

Just like you draw some pictures, it wasn't a job much. So I wanna be a developer, as a developer, as a serious guy and I love it so and I got a job as the front end developer. That was a lot of fun. So that was more hardcore JavaScript already. And because I was a small company, except the front end, I was also doing back end and I was my s s square. It was like 2014 Okay MSS Square. There was a thing, apparently I don't remember that was also quite nice.

I actually enjoyed it like the back end part. But because they had Photoshop skills I still was doing design. I was like, we know that you have some experience. Like, yeah, can you like do this? Than in Page that like that website, the app. So I started doing the apps and we were building mobile apps with extras and that was a framework there. I think it still exists, yeah. And then I was like, OK, I think

I'm done with developing now. I won't design. Yeah, now that it's more established, if you like, yeah. And then I got some invite, like in e-mail, like, hey, we're looking for designer, we saw you your CV, do you want to come to the interview? I was like, yeah, sure. I came there with the folder and with my pictures that I made screenshots of. That was my first portfolio, just the folder. Like.

My second was PDF. I just put the SIM as a PDF, but the first was just folder with screenshots of stuff that I did and I was just like and does this and then that. Next. Next. Next. Yeah. And I got a drop and it was a UX UI drop and then I learned a lot. That was my first like a serious one where we did a lot and I had an amazing lead there. She was very like a nitty gritty pixel perfect.

Every time I was sending to her she was like sending back like and and I was like damn, like is it that bad. But since I'm she taught me a lot on how to be like a very pixel perfect thanks to her still am. Yeah. And that was like a proper product development. So we had, I think it doesn't like around 10 products like small and big but the biggest one it still exists, it's called Unite. It's like a communication tool like a slack and we were building it from scratch that was a lot of fun.

Like we're also talking to the users all the dating, there was 7 designers working on that and different pieces of it and I was leading that. That was also like my first experience of leading it. That was quite exciting and because I was still coding, I could help but I didn't really code. So also like. It's my main focus. Yeah, I was still kind of missing it, but it was always in between. I don't know. For me, it's always in between. And there were not that many at that time.

Creative developers that exist now. Yeah, so they're either or. And after that, I moved with my ex partner here to Netherlands and I got a job here and I work almost for four years already. My biquity. Yeah. And also for me, there was

tremendous growth from a senior to stuff. Right now I'm a principal designer. That was a lot of growth, a lot of work, a lot of different cool products that also built on Scratch. I was on one or two projects as a front end developer. Yeah, I was gonna ask. Yeah, really. Because Zach. Yeah, our development director, he's like, hey, we need front end developers, but everyone is busy. Yeah. Can you help? Okay. And then he said it's gonna be a few months.

It ended up, I think six months. OK. But I loved it. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So enjoy. Yes, like, that was so cool. That was also a lot of we are creating the commerce website. So it's helping me to build a commerce website. That was fun. Yeah. So it's always for me. Like that's like, now I do consider myself more as a product designer because I've learned a lot about product design. I was mentoring people about

product design. I am not a developer because all this time I mostly was focusing on design. So I don't know all the, I mean works, but I can do develop some basic stuff, yeah, I can create my own website. So yeah. And like I do JavaScript, yeah. Do you still program nowadays? Like sometimes, either with work or something personal. Sometimes, yeah, not that often as I wish. Right now I'm more like I'm trying to learn the 3GS and Webgel isn't very much, it's

more in between. Like I always loved math when I was in college and also like I went to university when I was in Spaceburg also studied so engineering there. That was hardcore coding. There was JavaScript or Java and it was C Yeah that was like that was fun so and I loved it. Also it's tickles different parts of your brain.

So if design is something that you can explore and expand and then developing is more like a logical tasks and you have like a task and you like what is the best way for me to solve it. Yeah. And you know some patterns and you know some ways to solve it. So you can go like this or like this or like this and it feels, I feel like engagement shorter. When you're a developer, you have a task you need to do it and you feel satisfied. Yes.

OK, I did solved. Yes. With design, it can take so long until you feel happy then because there's so many stages you have to like sometimes products take like weeks or months to develop, right. So it's a non-stop like iteration, exploration, bringing ideation. So it's more like outside and it's like development is more like narrowed down. Yeah, so that's what I love about it and it feels nice solving something and it's working. It's like you feel so good about yourself.

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, I love that. The thread throughout kind of what you did was still design. Yet you still found kind of variation and leveraging what you learn through programming, right? A front end job. Not everyone can do that for six months. Just picking it up and having fun with it. Also enjoying it genuinely. I think that's really cool. Do you think your knowledge of both kind of development as well as design helps you in what you

do now in understanding or being more effective for sure, Yeah, I think so. I think the biggest benefit of that is that I can understand the architecture approximately. I'm not a solution architect. I'm not on that level far away from that. But I can approximately imagine how it's going to be built. Yeah. Or if there is a solution, I can't, like, make it separated into parts, right. So I know what's the back and how the back end works and what's the front and how they

communicate through the API. Yeah, you can break it down. Yeah. So what's different? The frameworks exist. What is to do like how they differentiate from each other? Like all of those like right, I can know what's the rate of the act and just rate and react, right? So you can use rate of the act and to which rec native, not rate native rectative. So I can understand the differences and make it and break into the pieces and also collect it in the pieces if it's

needed. So that helps me and also it helps of course with the communications with developers, because I know what they say and they see sometimes in junior positions and like in the beginning designers, when they start, it's a common problem, communication with developers, yeah, because if they don't have much of experience or understanding of how the products are built, actually they just speak on different layers.

So both of them are right, but because they use different language, they don't understand each other. Don't hear each other. Yeah. Yeah. So it could create a conflict. I see it less and less because I feel like more and more designers right now have experience with it. OK, let's deal. Sometimes I hear phrases like those designers. Those developers, Yeah. That's not what you want. No. It's like we're on the same page, right? We just speak sometimes different languages, right?

But we do the same thing like we do it together on our team. Yeah, I love that. And then either you can be the bridge or I feel like sometimes it really helps to just call people out and be like. You know you two are saying the same thing, right? And just talking to each other or you're saying something and they understand it, but you

don't see that they understand. It's like this communication thing is is very difficult sometimes and especially if you don't have kind of the knowledge of what goes on in each other's kind of work field on a more day-to-day because that's what they're advocating for, right? Sure, you're in the team and you have this kind of common goal, but everyone is still responsible for their part and wants to do their part the best.

And that might sometimes clash if you don't understand each other exactly right. But how is it for you? You're as a development site, so how do you feel about designers? I think I've had the fortune to work with designers that when I talk to them, when I'm trying to communicate something, I feel like they really understand where I'm coming from nice. And they're very flexible in being like okay if this is.

Very difficult at the moment if this is a simple solution or I also like just showing what my version of kind of the reality would be. They kind of collaborate and we more so Co create. For example, I've worked with a party that would give me a design and then I would have to implement the design and that's harder because then it's kind of I feel like they're just the party I have to manage right?

While if the people are more so in my team I can sit next to each other and we can be like okay. This is what we have now. Tell me what you think they'll be like, OK, these things need to change, these things are fine, blah, blah, blah. We do it on the spot and I feel like then that's it. That's the most effective way is doing it together rather than having this kind of this barrier in between. I feel like, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'm happy that it's getting more and more there,

right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see this like and it makes me very happy. Yeah. I can imagine.

I haven't seen what you've seen that people are more. Aware of each other's experience. Maybe aware is the right word, but I haven't seen what you see that people actually have experience in both sides as well. You haven't seen those people? No, a few people, but I wouldn't say that as kind of a general remark. Actually, I have a friend who is a very good developer and he has experience with design and I saw his design. So that's quite easy designs.

Yeah, I was like wow, that's quite nice. And then I have also a friend who has both like, but there are some people I can on my team. We have my colleague of mine, Allah, and he's working amazing. He does both. Yeah, he's creative coder. So he's doing it on more like a three dresser job stuff. Everything he touches, it just becomes like magic. That's awesome. Yeah. So you kind of like, look at this and it's like, damn it, like that's the gut. That's cool. Yeah, there are a few people

that. I also look up to and I'm like, they're legit. I love working with them cuz you can learn a lot. Yeah, but yeah, that level is admirable. I feel like, but I do no even like colleagues of mine that I'm thinking that quite a few of them have experience and they are somewhere in between. They're trying to make the bridges.

So I was working with the front end developer in the company where I remember right now in my biquity who when I came he was a designer and because he wanted to be a creative developer so he wanted to learn about design. So he said to a creative team like hey I'm a developer but I wanna learn can I join? And he joined the team as a junior designer and then he was

like he was quite good. I haven't seen much of his work so I cannot say but he was quite good and then he's like hey like I have kids I have to go back because I have I think he has right now tickets so junior developers, junior designer salary and senior frontend developer of course different so he came back but his idea is still was there.

He was always trying to find this way to be in between and either build the bridges so we can cover it better or he will like wanted to be something like that combines the boss and now he is going to another company that's he is actually going to be like that sweet spot. Yeah, good for him. Yeah, I like that. Well, people are like, I don't want to choose. I want both.

And they put in the work. Cuz I feel like it is a lot of work to be able to do both at a high level, right at the level that you would want to do it, that's true. But if they make it happen, I think that's really cool. Yeah, it's tremendous work because either within UX, UI if you don't take product design, if you just take UX, UI, a lot of people are either stronger in UX or UI. There are not that many people that are strong in both. And then product design adds extra layer right?

But if you want to be a developer and designer, so it's probably one way or another have to know UX and mostly focused on UI most likely. But you have to also know UX if you wanna do very usable products and then you wanna do the coding. Front end grows so fast. Yeah, right. Yeah. If you're out of it, you have to be like, OK, what do I need to catch up on? Like when I was on this project like for six months, I was like, I missed so much.

I haven't been there for a few years, two years, like bam, like everything changed. Like I don't remember anything. So and then if you want to be on top of it or at least in the middle, right? It's a lot of work. You have to study and design. Moves fast in front and moves fast crazy. Yeah, you have to be able to catch up on both ends. That's hard, yeah. It requires a lot of attention, I feel like. Yeah, and also free time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Time investment.

It's the biggest part then, Yep. Talk to me about kind of that

phase when you were thinking about mentoring other people and then the step that you actually took to do that. When was that? It was four years ago. Yeah. And when I moved here, I was struggling with getting a job here because market for me was here. Different from my experience in Russia, where I was living and working. Yeah. And it's completely different. So I was like, what is happening? Why my methods that work there don't work here. So. And I needed help.

Yeah. And I was taking at that moment, the course about the design New Xu. I don't know. I think it was research. Yeah, I think it was about research. And there was a program attached to this course, like you can find a mentor. And I was like like this person looks nice, he has a lot of experience, he can help me and he helped me to get a job, OK And this kind of like it was my

first experience with mentor. I never had mentors before, but I was so grateful because by myself, I would still manage it, but it would take much more time and much more like nerves if my, like, a nurse would be destroyed by yourself. Yeah. And my mental health. But he helped me because it's always right easy from that side to give feedback. You not always see what you do, right? It's the same as you don't see

how you walk. So another person can tell you what you do and how you can do it better. And he helped me a lot. And I was like, I want to pay back. Like it was my first thought because it's not just me, it wasn't just me. Like a lot of people move or they just need help with something that I have experience with. And I decided like, I'm just gonna do it in. Fact was immediate kind of. I want to give back. Yeah. Like he helped me and I got a job was like, I want, I want to do it too.

I want to. I know this feeling of frustration. I know how it feels when you're, like, trying to apply the job and you don't get it, not because you're bad, but you just don't know the dance. You need more information. Yeah, it's like a dance that you need to dance. It's like a ritual. And if you don't know this, you just don't get it. And you feel like something is wrong with you. But it's not. And it was very frustrating. And for me, it was very stressful, like, what am I doing

wrong? And he showed me, like, how I should do it, what I should, like, help prepare for the interviews, What different types of interviews exist? Like what shall I focus more on the technical part of it? And I was very grateful. And I was like, hey, I wanna do it too. So I started mentoring on the same course. I know you, Demi. Then I got into the boot camp. There's a boot camp called Design Lab. I think they're based in the US, but they have across with the global people.

Yeah, they helped me also quite a few, quite a lot, because they had a course and you manage people along the course. But it was not the same, right? Those people are trying to learn their first job, they're learning in the boot camp how to become designer. But it's first, it was paid, it was nice, but it's different type of relationship you have. And 2nd is that sometimes you're not a match with this person and it's also okay. You would just speak

differently. You have different interests in the way of mentoring. Also should match with the type of mentee. So it was not exactly that. So and then I found the, I think I was doing mentoring some people because other people were referring them to me. Yeah. And then ATP appeared, I think it was about two years, maybe a year and a half ago where I mentoring now and I was like that's perfect. I wanted to have a platform like this, but it's also a lot of

investments to build. Yeah. And I was looking for it. There was nothing and the ATP appeared perfect. So I started mentoring there and

that was it. So there are people that come to you in it's either just request like one request or it's a long term that you help them to land this job. Yeah. And it's very satisfying to see people like your investments, your time and effort that it evolves and the person gets better and get their first job and happy they are. Just for me, there was a lot like those just seeing those people happy and this they send to you this emails or something that's like, hey, like thanks a

lot to you. And it was like I'm just crying because it was so touchy. And then that was that was it basically. And that I still do. It's like it's just like a voluntary kind of thing. Wow. Makes me. From four years ago. You've been doing that kind of continuously. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I did a break right now.

And I was telling you before about that like for a few months because I have a lot of mentees and I feel I could scale it somehow because at some moment now I have like on a regular basis five people a week and like I could do more. So I'm looking for the ways how I could instead of maybe telling them sending some materials straight away or something like that. So I was thinking how I could scale it better and also take a break to reflect on it a little

bit. But before that I never took any break. Yeah. What is kind of within these interactions?

For you, the fulfillment really comes from helping them now. Yeah, yeah. And then also you've had people that are kind of a one off interaction and people that are more continuous. Yeah. When it comes to the people that are more continuous, like what is usually the period that they stay with you for, Usually you have a goal, right? Yeah. So oftentimes the goal is to get a job or to change job. There are less people that are struggling within the company.

They are, and they're also few, but mostly they have someone to help them out in a spot. But I also had a long term those are kind of like indefinite. So you just meet with them and give feedback on the work that they have just because they don't have someone to coach them on the spot. But others, it's like, I think the Max maybe was six months as the maximum average, maybe three or four months until they learn

the job. And it was before all of this like horrible crisis that started last year. Now I think the time is a bit bigger, but that was the average. And I think the maybe 50% or so were just coming like, hey, I need help right now, Spot, can you help me give feedback with this challenge I have? And they could leave. Yeah. And they could come like in a few months after. So those are kind of like I don't consider them long term, but they come back. Exactly, yeah.

Did you see any, like, commonalities between the challenges that people had? For sure? Yeah, yeah, quite a lot. What were those? It depends on the problem, right? There are a lot of similarities. It also depends on the role, because I had quite a few people. So it's a lot of data, yeah. But for the beginning designers, I feel that you can see by based on their portfolio that they have no experience. And that's OK, right? Because again, I started with a folder.

Start with no experience. Yeah. Like and I I know it's just the market where it is right now. It's very harsh. Yeah. But I feel like people could be the lots like it's end thinking and they have like all the stepbystep design thinking and they kind of fit in the work that they've done into this. Yeah, sometimes post, so sometimes they follow it and they like kind of properly didn't thinking sometimes they fit it in. That's right.

Actively, yeah. In reality this hand thinking doesn't happen that often like it's a it's a it's a mess in a way. There is, there is a logic, there is kind of like an arrow but it's like back for for back like talking to this like so and based on that I straight away can see that they don't have experience and that's OK. But I wish to hear story more than to see the process Okay.

And that's all I usually tell. Tell me about how you were working. Tell me about you were thinking behind about that. I know. I'm thinking I'm a designer too. Like I know how it works. You don't need to tell me about that. What I want to know is what you were thinking about and how you were solving. It's like what challenges you faced, who you talked to about that, what trade-offs you did because one way or another they had it even if they didn't have

experience. And that shows their like that they reflected on this and they show that they understood what they were doing. Yeah so and that was like a common pattern. And then also like storytelling I think is the key. For many people it's very important to tell a story and not just to do it as the ways others do. Because also in this mass of portfolios, I'm a bit sidetracking.

But in this massive, like in the in the big amount of portfolio that I saw, it ends up the same as everyone else, right? If you see all doesn't thinking, isn't thinking? Isn't thinking they all the same? How do you stand out? Yeah. So. And I don't, it doesn't tell me who you are. It doesn't tell me what you good at, because they all like it's hard for me to scan to understand who you are in there. Yeah.

So yeah. Interesting the the question you ask when it comes to don't just don't just show me the work, right, but show me the thought process. I feel like that, at least for me, in an interview, would be the most important. I don't really. I mean, I care about the work that you do, Sure. But if that's good, then we're going to talk about okay, what decisions did you make and why? And I might not even have an opinion. I might not really care.

I just want to understand your thought process because based on that I'm going to form an opinion probably. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like a lot of interviews nowadays are not. I mean, some are about the work. And especially I mean in development lead code exercises. Those are just about the work. But then still, they're mostly about thought process as well. Mm HM yeah, that's true, right? Because after all, I understand that junior designers don't have

experience and that's okay. Yeah, but what they need to have is right mindset. And it's hard to understand what mindset they have based on this portfolio. It tells me just that they don't stand thinking. But that's okay. That's basic knowledge. And again, in reality you have to be, I think in a very big company when everything is very line of structure that you follow step by step. Yeah, amazing.

Neither in product company where I worked before, nor in agency where I am right now in working different products. It's never that straightforward. No, it's not that linear. That's just not how it works. So, and that means that I want to know your agility, how you adapt, who you talk to, What do you do? Do you go and ask for help? Do you try to solve by yourself? Do you try to invent a bicycle Or you Google, right. So those things are important.

Yeah, I mean, when you were describing really helping people, right? And even people that you've helped coming back later or having either one off or a really long relationship with them, what qualities makes like a good mentor? And I'm wondering this because I'm thinking about doing mentorship myself. The hard part is I feel like I'm spread thin. So when I wanna do that, I wanna put my full effort in there. And I can't do that when I'm spread too thin.

Makes sense. But I always wonder, and I think I'm gonna do that in the future, hopefully near future.

But in any case, what makes a real good mentor in that way? Can anyone be a mentor? That's in the way? I think it's a mindset. The thing I would say is you have to try. You just need to try and see. Because a lot of people I knew, and I know they said I don't want to be a mentor and they tried and they said no, it's actually not for me. Yeah. And a lot of those people said I don't want to be a mentor. And they tried it. And it's actually so cool. Yeah. So it very much depends on you.

Like, if you enjoy that. So if you're really helping, I would recommend you try and see. Sometimes people say that you need to have specific knowledge to be a mentor, not really okay. So the type of mentorship, what type of mentorship and what type of mentor you are, it develops after some time. Yeah. And that's what I was also saying. Sometimes you're not a match. It can be that the person that you are talking to is not a match with you. So it's okay.

It's like French, right? Not you can't be friends with everyone. So I would recommend you to try and see how it feels and then just listen and to reflect. Sometimes I know the mentors. There are mentors that are more talking from their experience. I sometimes also do that. Sometimes there are mentors that are more like a therapist. They ask more questions, you know, like I know what do you feel about that? I feel like, how would you do? That might be me. So and and both of them

perfectly valid. You just find your like, target audience. You find those people that are much perfectly and you help them. Yeah, the most. What type of mentor would you describe yourself as to be? I would say I'm in the middle. I like telling about things that the people struggle in like a metaphor, okay. So I like explaining things. I guess I have like a lot of theoretical knowledge, I've told

myself. So I like explaining like, hey, they come to a challenge and this is that, and explaining and structuring and giving them and like aha kind of moment. So you have to kind of like talk and you have to have experience in a way. But I also like challenging sometimes people and asking questions. Yeah. But sometimes it sounds a bit. Are you poking me right now? It's. Like confronting, Yeah and what you did to this, but hey, I came to you for help. So it's a balancing for me in

between. And also I have different tools.

I would say right now that I've developed that I I take depending on the problem. Sometimes I do the code designing sessions. If I see that the problem is in the visual design and they come to me and say, hey I did this, can you give me any feedback? And I was like I understand that there are too many things that needs to be fixed. So instead I was like can you show me follow me, I go there and we design it together or I design it and I explain step by

step why. So like, hey, I take your design and this for example. And a lot of people said that they love it because they can see behind the scene, right? Yeah, it's. Like pair programming? Yeah. So. And I do that often. If there's for example UI right, the visual design. But it doesn't work with everything right. And I had this kind of like tools that I've developed and then just take them. Yeah, I love the kind of pair programming sessions, the Co

creation. Yeah, I feel like that's so important because. You're not just showing them the end result, right? I feel like if you're starting out from scratch and you're seeing all these beautiful end results, then it's pretty daunting, right? Because you're from scratch, you wanna get there and you don't see how to get there, right? That's true. And it feels like people just get it. Yeah, but there's a whole thought process.

There's a whole way of working that's very much structured and experienced, based and even individualized, and the only way to get that. Is by doing that together, right? Seeing that behind the scenes, asking the questions on the spot, why this not that in the moment? I feel like that's the biggest kind of learning you can get is by doing it together. That's true. Yeah. I also like with the visual design, I feel it's easier.

I think it's a controversial opinion. Some people don't think this way, but I think with UI it's easier to learn than UX because of copying. That's what I did long time ago. Yeah, when Photoshop was there, there were a lot of tutorials, templates, tutorials that you have to follow and then you have this outcome. Yeah, and I love tutorials. I still do tutorials and then tutorials. Like because you follow the person who does it, You have this kind of pair programming feeling. Yeah.

But also coping. You take a screenshot of the website that you love and you like put capacity like 50%. So you kind of like recreate it. And yes, and you create a font in this position. So you see the grid, you have to make a grid. You see the icons, the choice of imagery, the grid that the imagery and icons are aligned and and all of that stuff. And then you have it's almost like a tutorial, you have this patterns so and more you do that, more those patterns you have.

So next time when you need to create visual design then you just pick from all of those that you've done right, all those parts of website you copied or tutorials you took and you just align them right. So if you don't do that often, you are limited with only those things. Just looking at nice designs don't help because you don't really analyze it and more you copy it. The more tools you have cooler design becomes and you start understanding the composition and typography and the colors.

So that's the best way. It seems like a really smart kind of way of working or way of getting experience and copying. Mind sound bad in that way, but it's really learning from what other people have done, right? That's it. Yeah. But you don't publish it, right? Like, you can say, like, hey, I was learning from it. Yeah. But it's like, it's not like a break copyright. It's a learning opportunity for you. Yeah. It would be the same as if I would see like an application

I'd be like. I wonder how I would build that. And if I actually take the step and try and build it. I don't know at all what goes in behind the scenes, so I wouldn't really have an idea, but I can see functionality wise what they have and I would try and recreate it. Yep. Yeah, like a replicated. Yeah. Like, I think it's one of the things that you develop on your developer and like one of the first programs is calculator, right? Yeah, or like game or something. Simple, yeah.

Link shortener. Everyone. Everyone makes their own link shorteners. Yeah, exactly. It's also like in tutorial, right? You saw it many times. You just replicate it and then, uh, huh. Yeah, Yeah. And then you get that. Listen. But I feel like if I'm following

a tutorial like on a certain application it. It doesn't really retain as much. Like I follow the steps and I'm like, OK, I understand it, and then tutorial's done and half the end result. And then if I would close everything down and try and do it again, I think that's where the value is. But then I don't know if I would be able to do it. Most of the times I'd be like, no, I'll just look it up and I know it's there. I know where I can find it.

I wouldn't know how to do it myself basically. Yeah, but you mean why does it not retain like I? Don't know. I think it's because I'm. I'm literally following someone's steps. Yeah, more so. And then it's not as much about the thought patterns because they've already thought about it. They're just giving me OK, this is, these are the steps. Rather than talking about OK, we

could do this or this. I feel like if I have a dialogue and there's options, then I can understand the tradeoffs and the options and it retains more than being like, OK, this is the end result and this is kind of the tutorials usually OK, step one to 10, we're gonna go through all the steps basically. That's different for me. I think maybe it's like also in the maturity level, because I remember.

Especially Photoshop, right? Help me in the beginning at least to remember for the tool where the tools are located. Absolutely. And what are the? Yeah, because there's so many. Yeah. Yeah. All this filters like drop downs and then there are drop downs and there are drop downs hidden. Yeah. And then you like, remember it? Like here it is. Because I already used it, yeah. I get that. What I was still wondering is probably two thoughts right in this kind of four year span of.

Being mentored, do you feel like you're still improving? Cuz I'm thinking about myself When it comes to experience, in the beginning, you learn a lot, right? And then it kind of it kind of is lessened out through time. I'm wondering if you're still learning things about yourself or things that you can do better or are improving. Like, what's your feeling about that? I think I still do because there are a tremendous amount of

different people. Yeah. And just meeting those people and understanding how it works and what's their thinking process. You have to adapt every time to a different person. Like there are mentorship that you have one to mentors and repeatedly just meet with them once a week. In the case with ADP, you never know who's gonna be there. You have to on a spot. Yes. You have to adjust to know what the questions to ask.

Often times the problem they come is not the problem, it's the problem, it's something else. And then you have to understand it and the right ask the right questions so you understand what they actually problem and they understand that it's not the problem they're trying to solve, it's something else. And this thing like that, you

have to listen. There are always these different people, different accents, different languages, different experiences, different problems, and you never know what's going to happen. That's quite exciting. Yeah. And I always feel like I improve it like, hey, like. And because I again over thinking I think about that. Could I do something better? Could I listen more? Maybe could I ask maybe more questions and maybe I took over too much or maybe we didn't click. What could I do better?

And next time I try to do it, yeah. And also write it again also for myself. Some things that helped. And I have this already

developed another framework for myself. When I mentor, I called it past, present, future. Again, maybe it exists somewhere else. I just haven't read about it yet. Like when the person comes to me and they're saying like, hey, this is who I am, this is my problem, I first collected all information about their past, what they've done, what they experience, where they've been, what they've studied, is it university related to tech or what they're trying to get.

Like everything about the past, send about the present. Where are you right now? You have some limitations with the visa, maybe because we're Netherlands, a lot of expats, right? Or they have to have a job as AP because they need to have money. They have like a lot of free time or they have a full time job, so then they have free time at all. So I'm trying to understand where they are right now and then we're trying to build where they wanna be based on those two things.

Yeah, a lot of people like I have, they don't have degrees in design or tech. They are like architectures or physicists. And then based on that you have to adjust, right? You have to create like a second game. You need to create this strategy unique for them, so they can achieve this goal in the manner and in time do they have it and they have kids or stuff and that's quite always exciting. And then you have to follow up on that. A lot of people drop.

Like, not a lot, but some people drop. I can imagine because that the priorities change or something, but that was very exciting, like follow up with those people who follow this process. Yeah, and getting the goal and then achieving this, that's just very nice. But this whole process that I have, that's every time different. I don't have to the same people. Yeah, that's. I didn't think about that.

I felt like, OK, it would kind of be similar in that way, but because of exactly the things that you laid out, the background is different, the situation is different, the context is different. What they want in goals sometimes might be the same, could be different as well. And then it's. Yeah, it's based on the individual. And each individual is different in their similarities, but they're all different, right? Yeah. All the starting points is

always different, right. Sometimes we feel like we when we compare ourselves with others. Yeah, like, I'm the same age as this person, but he's already better than me or doing whatever I want to do. The starting point was different, right? Maybe they were born in different country or they had like a partner to support them. They didn't have financial issues. We forget about all of those

things. Yeah, like and I always thought like that you compare each other as like a line, you know, like our path, like as a line. So here, OK, school, university. And then I compare myself. I am this age, this age I'm supposed to be here because he's here. Exactly. He's here. But it's actually like this. And sometimes we cross and we're in the same position, but we're different age in different paths, right. And then sometimes goes away.

So it's kind of like this whole mentoring experience helps understand that there is no the same people you cannot compare. It just doesn't work. Yeah, you can only compare to yourself in the past. That's interesting. When you cross, it's probably when you meet each other, when you know about each other. And that's when you compare, you compare at the cross, yeah, but the whole history of their. You don't take into consideration at all.

Yeah, I like that metaphor. And sometimes you can even go along because I find it nice experience to have a buddy to do something together. Yeah, when you learn something together, it's much more fun. You have more motivation. So I have friends right now where we meet once a week and we write together because I want to learn to write. She wants to do more, write articles. And then we have different paths, right?

We have different context. We are in different places, but now we'll align in this thing together, yeah, And then we go to different directions, maybe more across again the path. Yeah, that's very nice. I feel like it's having those

conversations and meeting those individuals has probably made you like very flexible in the way that you interact or accommodate or just help in that way. Like, has it translated into your career or even your personal life as well, Kind of the skills that you cultivate? Yeah, I I think it changed me a lot overall. I I don't judge much. Like, like I still sometimes catch myself on judging, but it's like, hey, don't, don't. It's sometimes like a lack of confidence or something.

So I don't judge anymore people because just like, it doesn't bring any value at all. So I'm more open. I understand that I cannot use one tool to every every problem, right? And every person the same. I talk to different people in different ways. That helped me to deliver the message. Yeah, because some people are more gentle and I know that they are sensitive to the feedback. So I need to find a voice and a way to communicate it to them so they understand I cannot be like

a harsh hammer. Exactly. It's not going to work, yes, right. You need to be respectful to the way they are and communicate it to the way that you can understand. And then I just try to understand the person that I listen a lot in the beginning and then when the standard, I also sometimes ask like hey like what is the way feedback you

prefer. I know there are some direct people I I'm by default tend to be direct but I adjust so like what the way of feedback you want to have and I adjust it and I like kind of like accommodate different types of personalities and I think that helps me a lot. Yeah. In French and France and work. Yeah. Do you this is? Sometimes the thought I have because I try my best to not judge, I try my best to

accommodate for other people. And I see sometimes when people don't do that and that irks me. When and I see people judging or when I see people like clashing because of their personalities and they don't want to adjust to the other people either in work or even in personal life. And I'm like, man, if you were a bit more aware or if you had kind of a more diverse experience in that way, you would see what you're doing is. Is not really productive in this end goal that we have.

Yep. Yeah, I know the feeling. But you can also look at this. I look at this from angle. Maybe they are not where they are right now. They may be in the future. Like if I remember myself 5-10 years ago, I was different. Like I was quite dumb like 20 in the beginning for. 20 was there. I was dumb. I was judgmental. I was like I was very shy. I couldn't talk to people like, and then when I meet a person and it's like, why are you so shy?

I just need to go do it. I was like, no, you were like this, right? So it's different paths and they're in a different step of it. And that's okay like the way they are right now here. Interesting. Yeah, so you just let it go. Yeah, yeah. There is no need to change it if they don't ask you to help with it. Yeah, right. And then there's no need to trigger. To be triggered by that you can be and you can catch it like hey, I'm be triggered.

But there's no reason to be. Yeah, the other way you are and that's okay. I think that's probably my problem because I think it would be helpful if that behavior changes, but I shouldn't be the one to judge that. Your solution focused? Yeah, exactly. I feel like that's my problem. It couldn't be. Yeah, it's like in relationship when your girlfriend tells you something. Do you? Straight away tell her a solution, you know, or you're trying to listen to her and just let her vent.

You know, there's like a common challenge and relationship. I was also listening about it in podcast. There are some people that are trying to straight away to give a solution and they're just people like, yeah, of course that's OK yeah, that's fine. That's feedback I've gotten. It is what it is. I don't want a solution, I just want you to listen right. Yeah. Like it is just yeah. Like, there is none.

Everybody's like doing their own best, like in their own way, with the energy and resources they've got in this moment. Very philosophical. Yeah, Yeah.

On that note, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I must say, this is a lot of fun. What's this kind of what you expect? What you expected as well? I didn't know. I tried to not to expect anything because if you ever think it was like you have expectations and then they may not meet. I know all my overthinking minds. Like, I will let it go. Yeah, whatever happens, happens. Yep. And if I say something weird, that's OK You didn't say anything. Anything weird?

All right. I didn't even curse no whatsoever. So yeah, I'm going to be fine. Thank you for coming on. Whatever it's going to be. Yeah. So I just want to enjoy the process. And I did. Thank you. This was a lot of fun and I'm going to round it off here. I'm going to put all Iona socials in the descrition below, reach out to her, let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.