Mental Health Problems and Conference Talks with Stacy Cashmore

Hi everyone. My name is Bachi, land for today's episode, we cover mental health issues, something that's not as discussed as it should be. So this episode tries to open up and be more vocal about that. But I have to give you a Content warning on that because things got quite Deep and got to be emotional here and there as

well. I guess Stacy Cashmore is a speaker author, and software engineer, and currently a tech Explorer, devops at only plan, she has a house made of Legos, which if you have a call with, Her online, you will see on a background quite awesome. I'll put the links to our socials in the description below, check that out. And with that being said, enjoy the episode, listen to whenever

you go on stage to the conference talk, occasionally occasionally not as often as I should do because I these are headphones. I hate hearing myself. Yeah. So it's a lot of the time I will skip it so I Just go through and I know how I think the talk went and I'll have a look at the bits that I thought went really well. Okay and I'll have a look at the bits that I thought didn't go well and I'll try and kind of like is my head correct?

Yeah or am I completely off and I need to look at this in more detail. Yeah and one or two. I've done the whole way through generally things like this. I will watch this one the whole way through because we're going to be talking about mental health and I want Want to make sure that I'm giving the the message that I want to give. So that these ones are so personal to me, that I make sure I go all the way through. Yeah. And the more technical ones I would do the, the important

bits. And check how that one's gone, and the ones that I'm not entirely happy with. Yeah, I will listen to those all the way through. Okay, so I had that with.net rocks. I did an episode on static web apps because that's like my tech emotion and I was not feeling well at the time. Yeah. And I actually said to Richard and Carl in the recordings like if this isn't good enough for you to use I am not going to be offended, okay? And yeah both of them went. No, this is great.

We've got good stuff here. Just like you're being nice to me and then I listened to it afterwards and I'm still not entirely happy with it but it was better than I thought it was. Yeah, I mean, I recognize what you're saying, like, I've gone. I mean, I'm hosting this episode then I've hosted the last eight. D. But I've also gone on as a guest on several podcasts and I we do some to myself as a host or even as a guest. And I'm like, man, I was really tired.

Like, my interactions my snappiness. They're just gone or I wasn't feeling it or actually, I didn't listen to what the person said. I went on a different topic. Like I can pick those out re listening, but during the moment, I also kind of notice it but not the, not the severity of it. Yeah. That's there's kind of a disconnect there.

I've also had because the last episode it was a qa1. And that one was me answering the questions that were sent in through the listeners. And when I listen back to that one, when I look back to that one, I was like, this is like a different person, like it doesn't even look like me. It was way more energy. I was like, sometimes there's like a disconnect and I don't recognize the person I'm seeing on screen as that is me. But there's like a disconnect there. Do you have that as well?

I have that occasionally, I'm watching myself back and I also have it when I'm actually on the stage. Yeah, sometimes you just you You totally Miss how the audience is picking up what you're saying? Yeah, and The worst experience for me, okay? Are at the actual time whereas NDC London this year really? I went, I get my talk, it was in a big room. There were an amount of people there. It wasn't packed but it wasn't empty. Yeah, so I think there was about

100 or so people in the room. It's nice audience. Good amount. Yeah. It was a beautiful stage, but the room was dark. So I couldn't see anybody except for the first row. Yeah. And the Acoustics meant I couldn't hear anybody. Oh, really?

So, I'm going through my talk. There's a few bits where I make like a little bit of a joke about stuff, Simons, and yeah, you just get that silence and nothing back and I can't see people and the only person I saw laughing was my friend, sitting in the front row and awesome that she did that. It's like, that's my friend laughing, Flo supporter. Yeah. And it wasn't until afterwards. I came off stage and normally I'm flying when I finished talk.

Yeah. And I came off stage of this one and my friend came up were know, how did At go. Then I've never felt this bad coming off of a talk that really easily the worst one I've ever done. Okay. What are you talking about? That was fine. It's like, did you not hear the people I know and it's It was only when people came up to me afterwards and started speaking to me. Yeah, that it actually hit me. It's like, okay, you need to Believe in yourself a little bit more.

Yeah. Obviously taking note of what the audience is doing is good, but you also need to believe in yourself a little bit more here and not just go well, there's silence. This is dropping like a lead balloon. Yeah, arm, I get that.

I mean, I was on stage and I was like, okay, I look through the audience, like, in my head. I know what to do and the audience look like a few people to me afterwards, after I was done with my session. In the next round, I sat in the audience and I was like man, this is a lot of people.

I did not know them have, um, first cuz I didn't recognize the amount of people that were in there II had that oh, with a lot of people, the biggest audience I've ever spoken in front of wires and JS World. Okay. In Amsterdam. That's a good amount. And that theater is huge. It's a Theater Amsterdam. And it's like a hanger sighs theater. Yeah. It was singletrack about 1,000

people. And for the first two sessions I went Went and sat with a colleague on the back row and I'm looking down over all of these heads just thinking what if I put myself in for here? Yeah but actually walking out and seeing all of those people, it gave me such energy. Mmm. I don't know why, I don't know how, but I'm really happy. It did. That's all we had really good lighting people there as well because obviously they know how the theater works.

So I walked on stage, it was one of my first talks after the pandemic. Yeah, and the lights went down just as I started to talk, it's like, well, I was going to say it's great to see everybody in person again, but it's gone dark. So I guess I can't do that. And they brought the lights back up, so that I could waive it all the people before I got going. And it was just, it was, it was

such a fun start. They just put so much energy into you, and I didn't actually notice how big the audience was after that point. It was just a really fun audience to work with. Yeah, even when get have crashed on me, They did obviously, obviously. It's like that's what you want. It's get hurt sewing 5:00 when you try and go to the workflow page. Perfect. When those your demo the timing on that is like impeccable. I've had that happen. Yes. Well, the demo were conference

always is always that. Yeah, I love hearing that.

Do you mentioned you still get kind of anxious or even like the the amount of people sitting in a crowd can kind of be confronting, but you had a lot of conference talks, right? You've had this many times, is it like gradually? Going down? Or is it always like still there? No, it's how I still there. Yeah, rights at that first. The five minutes before you go on. Yeah. And so I suppose that's improving. It used to be like half an hour before I went on it was like, oh my word. Yeah.

Like a friend of mine. We often send each other messages when we're stressed. I was like, why do we do this to ourselves? Yeah, I had that thought as well. And then you open your mouth. It's I had it from my very first talk, I was in a room. Smallest room in the conference because it was my first ever talk. Yeah. It was packed. I think there's like one or two empty seats and that was it and that stress me when it was only a quarter full at the beginning it was like okay I can do this.

There's some people there's not too many. Yeah and then it was totally fun. It's like what have all these people come for? Who am I to think? I can say something to these people and I was really stressing. Hmm and then I got the message to go other signal to go and I took two deep breaths. Okay, is that it is just so Awesome to see everybody here. I can't believe you will come to see my first talk and that's it. Once I got to that, I just started to fly and I loved it. That's awesome.

I know that that was a point when it was like, okay, I did this kind of as an anxiety thing, what definitely is an anxiety thing, but no. Now I've done it once. Like, I got to do this again. That's awesome. I mean, I did it once and I was like, okay, I can see how people get addicted to this because that the energy after that, the people Out to you and be like, yes, awesome talk. I'm like, I don't know you. But thank you like this.

Yeah, that means the world to me and I can see I can see myself doing that more and I could see other people also doing that. Yeah absolutely. It's very special.

Did you always know you wanted to do that? Or how, how did you come up to your first kind of conference though, I did not happen. It kind of has to go back a little bit. It sound like I've had mental health issues my entire life since I was a child. Yeah. And it was in 2018, it got really bad, okay? I was really struggling at work, really struggling at home. I'm at work. I would just sit staring, not at the monitors but through the

monitors. Okay. And I say this, Every time somebody asked me about it. I don't know how I wasn't fight, okay? Because I wasn't working. I was just sitting behind my desk and spacing out, just try not to cry the whole day at home. I just also really spaced out and I had a young son. Hmm. And I should have been spending more time playing with him. It's I took our four hours a week off as I would describe the

law if I've said that correctly. That's the one I'm tip to spend time with him, play with him so that is not just in daycare so that I'm not just working and around that time, I wasn't playing with him, he was entertaining himself on the floor with his toys. I was sitting on the sofa and I just couldn't get myself off of the sofa. It was I wanted to and I'm screaming at myself in my head that I should do but just nothing.

Nothing came out. Yeah. And with all this going on I started to see a therapist took me a long time to get that energy and courage but so pleased that I did and it started to get me on the road to recovery. Yeah, and about this time, I

also started to go to meetups to try and force myself to do things. Always a nightmare. I love the meetups. I love the content is somebody comes up in speaks to me. I enjoy that too. But if nobody's coming up in speaking to me then I just really not in a good place. Yeah. And then take a rama came to the Netherlands. Okay. Huge Conference held in a multiplex cinema. Loads of speakers from around the world that you just look at the line.

That was like, I have to go to this conference and I knew that I wasn't going to be healthy but I also knew I wouldn't be healthy if I didn't go. Yeah and I got they're ridiculously early because it was like an hour and a half two hours drive from my home. Okay? And I don't like being late, that's one of the things that sets off my anxiety. It's really gets me upset. So I drove there with An hour and a half to spare, just in case this traffic. And I went that early.

I actually missed the morning rush hour and got there with no traffic at all. So I was one of the first attendees to arrive really early and then Kenya if nobody's talking to me. I didn't have a power bank so I couldn't use my phone. Yeah. To try and entertain myself or at least distract myself from where I was no books or anything and I'm slowly getting more and more wound up. Got to the keynote, it a huge. Huge room in the pâte. À. Des. Okay.

And it sounds ridiculous, but that was awesome because it was dark. Everybody's looking at the stage and you can pretend, you're just on your own, you're not with a thousand people, you're just on your own. And that kind of carried on for the first couple of sessions smaller rooms, but again, it's all Cinemas. So, when the speaker speaking, it's dark. It's basically you, and the speaker, and that feels fine. Yeah, and then we had the first break.

Okay, everyone storms up, everyone storms out, a cinema is not built for every single Cinema to empty at the same time, into the hallways. It's built so that a cinema can empty and fill on a staggered basis. Yeah, and you've Not you just got all of these things emptying, a thousand people, The Refreshments, the stands, the sponsors. And it was just, I was totally overwhelmed. Yeah, I get that.

Yeah, I saw the arm experienced and and I know people that work there and I wanted to go and say hello and I just couldn't, I literally ran off on the stand before. Anybody could see me. Okay. And I ended up hunched up again, the wall against the wall with my arms in front of my face. Completely breaking down. Yeah. Managed to run into one of the cinemas which was empty cuz it was the brakes thankfully and

got myself to calm down in the dark and the silence. but I know at that point that If that was my memory of the day. Yeah, there's no way I'm coming back for day to exam anxiety, attacks are not fun and I needed to do something. And I've seen somebody walking around in I really nice swing dress with a petticoat full-on 50 swing style, which is my style, but not what I was wearing in the day cuz Tech conference jeans and t-shirt for practicality.

Yeah, it's alright. I'm gonna give her a compliment. Sounds stupid. It's such a small thing but it's big to me because I struggle speaking to I struggle, speaking to individual people and starting conversations and to me if I give someone a compliment in Just have like I'm being a complete creep. So it's like okay this is going to be hard but it's a positive hard. Yeah, at the end of the day I will both in the bathroom. Washing her hands and she's a speaker.

Yeah, which made it even worse because before I was a speaker, you have attendees and you have speakers exactly. Now, I am a speaker. Absolutely not the case of really, really not pit at the time. Yeah. And I remember just taking a deep breath is like, I've just got to say that dress your wings up to Amazing. and, Her name's Jessica and Jim. Hmm, awesome. Awesome speak. And a great friend of mine now and we had a little chat. Yeah, about style and fashion and then she went off and did

her session. I went off and I thought that was it. I've done my bit. I've conquered something in. That was a really great thing to take at the end of the day. Yeah, they to I turn up actually in this outfit. Okay. Full swing outfit because hey, if she can do it, I can do it. Yeah. And I feel Oh good. Ennis it helps my mental health just being in this outfit because you feel good about yourself. Yeah, that's that will do that. And I was walking from the car

park to the venue. And some guy, came running up behind me, tapped me on my shoulder and said, I've just got to say the session. You gave yesterday was outstanding. No way. It's like I know exactly who you mean. Yeah, but it wasn't me. So I'm going to send her a message on Twitter and pass it on for you. I can see why you would make this mistake. There's not that many people that go to conferences in full swing dresses. Yeah, there's getting more which

is really cool. It's armed with both about the same height with both got red hair, so fun, the back I can totally see okay past the compliment Along on Twitter and she tweeted back. Oh, awesome. I mean the insta-tox only brought one dress, but I can't wait to see your outfit. I'll look for you over breakfast and I thought that's polite. And again expected That to be the end of it. Yeah. But no she did actually come and look for me over breakfast.

I love that she was wearing this absolutely amazing Spider-Man hoodie. Okay, which even zipped up over the face and it looked like just a complete Spider-Man, lot of Joe's awesome. But we got chatting about again about style mental health about tech and she just said one you speak about these things with such passion. Yeah. Have you ever considered being a speaker? No, I Go to conferences and I attend them badly. I cannot speak. Yeah. And it turned out that she

helped organize. And so they took in Stockholm. Yeah. And said, yeah, you should applying the call for papers is open. Apply, put in a placeholder for now. Don't stress yourself too much. Can't guarantee you're going to be picked, but, you know, give it a go. If you get picked, it's in a different country with people, you don't know. The worst thing that you're imagining in your Head, if it happens, you are never going to

see those people ever again. Yeah, you're completely Anonymous. So I said, I would apply which, again, triggered my anxiety because now, I've even though it was just a friendly conversation. I've now said, I'm going to do something. So if I don't do it, I'm a bad person. So I applied again, never expected to get picked, didn't hear anything from it for a while?

Because as I've learned CFB closing dates and the dates that you hear about whether or not your selected are not necessarily next to each other and I was at a restaurant with my in-laws on vacation a couple of months later. Okay. And my phone went beep. Yeah. Nice in the middle of a restaurant. I gave a little scream and he's like yeah. I've been selected. That's so cool. And then it dawned on me. Now you've got to ride a talk. Yeah, you gotta do it.

You gotta do it. So I think I must have put about 2:00 3:00 in that first talk. Learn so much along the way. And yeah that got me to Stockholm and that is so cool. It was it was absolutely not a plan thing in my life at all. It was total Serendipity. Yeah and since his how much I loved it I'm just really pleased that it happened. Yeah. I can imagine how much, how much

did you get pushed into this? Kind of commitment of applying in the first place? Because for me, if I never wanted to be on stage, and if I never wanted to do that, that's literally like me 10, 12 years ago, I would have been Never never ever. But now that I've gotten a bit more comfortable speaking and I'm really passionate about some things in there. I'm like, I can see that, maybe

I'll apply, right? And when you get to that point that application process gets easier, you might like postpone it and do it a bit late, but eventually you'll do it and once you then get in then you actually have to do it. Yeah, it was that kind of similar for you as well. I was at this one. It was just really. I had never even considered it in the past.

Yeah. Yeah. So it wasn't even on my radar of something that I should be interested in my tibia needed, my self-confidence, and my self-worth at the time, we're on the floor, so that there's just no way that I'd have considered doing anything like that. Because seriously, who am I to do this? Yeah. And that conversation pushed me quite a lot. Yeah.

Because it was the hole. I said that I would do something just in a conversation and like you said, that made the commitment in my head even though there was no commitment. Now that made the commitment in my head. Yeah. And it pushed meet after that, it still took me about a week after that to actually fill it in and do it. Yeah.

Our, which was have really hellish week the, I constantly got this now in the back of my head, it's like, you promised to do this, you know, you've got to do this. Yeah. And I really To do this, but you've got to do this. I recognize a lot in that, and I think it says a lot about your first of all, you and also your values, right? If you make a commitment to someone else, it's completely different than making a

commitment to yourself. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, because they know, and, you know, they know and you said, yes, so we gotta do that. Yeah, we're gonna do this now. That's a, I recognize that 100%.

But you touched on 2018 and being kind of in a bad place when it comes to mental health. And just Personal life and work life kind of I'm assuming assimilating and both not going great. Yeah. Was it like one thing first and that led to the other thing. Not going great. Or can you kind of walk us through what happened there? To be honest, it's it really goes back and starts in my childhood.

Mmm, arm, i-i've had mental health issues since before I was ten, okay, it's I had to do this with a lot of my therapist. We were talking about where it started. And I figured out, I was about 7 or 8. Okay. When I first really started to struggle with this and I have is I have a huge issue with social anxiety. Okay? Said that, that is the first kind of one that goes out there. So I can't handle being in rooms of people.

So it's lucky. I don't like go to big, massive conferences, anything because that would be awful. Yeah but I really can't do being with a group of people, so the hole Waiting outside of class before going into class. Would have me climbing the walls. Yeah, arm school discos. I always went to them but it was always a nightmare and I never felt good. and all of those other things, when you're growing up, which should be nice, easy, simple things to do just weren't, it's I never I

never really fit in, okay. That also really doesn't help anything. It's, I had one or two friends at school. I wasn't friendless, but I didn't like have the big group of friends and I wasn't part of. Yeah, I just wasn't really part of any social group had wanted to friends and that was it. Yeah. And I think as a child, you don't really notice what it is that you're doing, and It gets you. It does get you down even though you don't recognize what it is.

This is going to get really dark now, I apologize that you do end up Well I ended up with suicide ideation from the age of seven or eight. Yeah, which I never realized wasn't a normal thing until I was speaking to a therapist about it and apparently not everybody does that.

But it's a kind of thing that as I got older and I started to do things. It's like oh it's some point. I am going to get the self-confidence at some point. This is going to stop and you push yourself through. Keep on trying things keep on pushing yourself and it was just 2017, 2018. I think I just ran out of steam. Yeah. And At that point. I don't know. It's I didn't physically collapse, but I definitely mentally collapsed. Yeah, I've heard that happens first, right?

That mentally, you just can't handle it. And then your physical reaction comes after the, yeah. When you've just been exhausted. Yeah, no. And I think it would, it's my partner. Who really noticed something and she just said it.

You've got to speak to the doctor? Yeah, I think it still took like two weeks after that before. I actually got the the energy in the nerve to call the doctor and to go. Yeah. The doctor was amazing. I know that not everybody's experience is the same here. So I feel so lucky that this was

my experience. Yeah. But he did make a really nice joke actually at the end of the appointment, when he'd written me, the referral letter arm recommended, a therapist to me. So, you've got to go and find one. This isn't something that we can do, but I recommend talking to this person because for what you've got, he's known to be good. And I think I cried with relief and he asked what it was, I was I was terrified of coming here. Yeah so what did you think I was

going to do? So I'm not going to help you. Yeah that that is exactly what I was expecting you to say. It's I was just really expecting just a comment back of this is all in your head. When you know what it is all in my head because it's in my brain, which is in my head. Yeah. But I was just expecting a everybody goes through this, you just gotta suck it up and deal with it the same as everybody else does.

Yeah. And I wasn't actually expecting to get the help and it's it's been a hard slog since then they can imagine. I I've learned a lot about myself doing this. Yeah. One of the things I've learned is I'm not recovered and I'm never going to be recovered, okay? Interesting. I have coping mechanisms. Yeah which helps and I accept the issues that I have which oddly enough also helps, not fighting it all of the time and knowing that, okay, these situations this is going to

happen. So you need to do XYZ to try and make yourself feel safe. Yeah. Taking those types of accommodations can really. It doesn't take the issues away but it can help you cope with them. Yeah, that's interesting. There's a lot that goes through my mind. But I mean, I talk to you before the show as well, and one of the things that stood out to me, I mean, even when we talked about

going to conferences, right? You just vibing energy, even when we met in the hallway, just now like you're amazing as a person as a personality. So I would have never thought that that was kind of in your past that you had to be confronted with that and become aware of that and acknowledge

that. It is kind of within you in that way and accommodate for it, like I would have never Ever imagined that but I think a lot of people have those little little mental health issues and they gradually are are larger or smaller depending on the person and depending on what they do with

but a lot of people also swipe it under the rug. Yeah. And I think probably that's when you went to the doctor and you had kind of the expectation that they would be like well swipe it under the rug like that's what everyone else does but I don't think that's healthy. I don't think that's sustainable. It's really not. It's I saw in the Scottish. That I'm done a sacar for Microsoft. Did an awesome talk for the ending keynote and she made a

really nice point in that talk. Everybody has mental health. Hmm some people have mental health problems. Yeah but everybody has mental health and if you don't look after your mental health then you're gonna get mental health problems. Yeah. And because of my predisposition because our of what I've been through. Yeah, I have some serious mental health issues, the not looking after it and the not taking care of it. Is what? It made it get really bad for me.

Exactly. Yeah. And how do you take care of it. Now, what do you do now? To kind of keep that in a healthy state or a healthier State, what I do now is One, try and actively think about what my current mental health state is. Okay. So I will know sometimes that. Okay, I've got a depressive mood coming on. Yeah, which can sometimes be a couple of hours sometimes be a couple of days.

And if I catch it early enough then I can try and do something to either Stave it off or to bypass it all together. Yeah. Just try and figure out things which are going to give me dopamine hit. One of the things that my therapist taught me is it's called the ABC model but there's multiple different ABC models out there so please don't Google it because you will not get what I did. Yeah but basically it's figure out going What is something that you can do?

Doesn't have to be big? Just what is something that you can do? Do it and then see what happens in your head afterwards and really something as simple as we're going to clean the kitchen. Exactly. Okay. So we're going to spend time cleaning the kitchen, five minutes, get silly, and event is like a, did I get something from that? Yeah. And figuring out those little bits of, okay, if I'm feeling bad before, it gets to the point where I can't force myself to do

anything. Force myself to do something. Yeah. So catching it early is one of the things that I can do the other one is realizing my triggers. Hmm. So being in big groups of people is still absolutely one of them when I go to conferences, I'm before my talk, I will make sure that I've got plenty of charge on my phone and make sure that I've got my power bank with me. Yep, an e-book. Obviously, if I'm speaking I've always got my computer so I can always have something to hide behind.

Mmm, I really love it when conferences have quiet rooms, okay? Because they can your then not in the crowd, you can go in the quiet room, you can sit down with no expectations and you can chill. Yeah, speaker, a spectacular. Definitely one of the huge advantages of being is because when you have a speaker and when you can truly just disappear, yeah, that that is help my mental health at conferences so much.

Zh. I know that I have issues with noise, so I now always travel with a noise cancelling headphones. If I know I'm going to be in a public space. Yeah. Arm and it used to be really bad as like I can't put my headphones on because that's so important light but it's like no I need to disappear. I'm going to put my headphones on. Yeah, I've just ordered a pair of loop earplugs okay they're not they don't cut out all of the sound but they cut it down a little bit.

Yeah. So I'm going to To try those. I've heard great things about those from other people. So I want to try those myself and they're not ridiculously expensive. So they don't work, have won't be happy. It's not the worst thing in the world. Yeah. So those are the types of things that I try and do to keep myself grounded a little bit. Yeah interesting thing that you

said is here I come in and I'm full of energy and it's until you appeared. Yeah I was not no I yeah, I was I was not happy in the car coming here. Okay. It was I was I always get nervous before doing a podcast or before doing a talk but it's more than that I was just really like, okay it's you've got to go and speak to people and it's that scary thing in my head.

Still, yeah. When you came up and started the conversation that takes that away quite nicely, but I've seen it at other conferences and it would be so cool. If more conferences could do it, different stickers that you can put on your batch from stickers that say, nope, I don't want to talk to anybody. I'm really sorry but I just need to be by myself here. Yeah. Stick as it's a, I will talk to anybody in anything.

It's fine, let's do that. And one in the middle, which is the one that I would want, which is, I cannot come up to you and start a conversation, but please feel free to start a conversation with me. Somebody talks to me, I can, I can just talk the ground from underneath them. I don't mind talking, I hate myself for it afterwards, and after this podcast, I'm going to sit in the car and think, oh gosh, what did I just say? But I can do that if somebody comes up and initiate the conversation.

Yeah. And then it doesn't matter. That's a big place because I'm with somebody and we're having a conversation and we have that connection And that is a speaker. It's also really cool because like you said, you give you a talk and people come up to you afterwards and talk to you and that just helps me. No end. Yeah. It is a works. Yeah. So if anybody does see mirror conference, please come up and

say hello. And I said, yeah, it's it's really interesting because first of all I recognized a lot when I went to that conference and it was super busy and there were a lot of people I sat on a couch and I just pretended to be on my phone. I didn't actually do anything, I was checking stuff but I knew nothing was there because I

wanted to be alone. Yeah, and people came up to me and said, like, joining us sounds like in a bit like I just need a moment and I think I needed to recharge my batteries. I need to be like, okay prepare and we can go again but that takes a lot of self-awareness right to know that, okay? You just need a moment right now and don't push yourself through

this. And also if I'm talking to strangers, I always or sometimes have regrets of not saying things or of say I should have said other things and I eat myself up about it and When I talk to people, people don't recognize that I do in a conversation or the way I present myself or even presenting, you know, when you

meet a team for the first time or when you're in the room with strangers and you have to do your introduction round. Yeah. That gives me a lot of anxiety. Yeah, a check. I checked my pulse because my heart is beating. I'm a quick, a my turn and then I do the thing and everything is fine. It's just, that gives me a lot of anxiety. I don't like being in that situation. I can totally go with that one. Yeah, but I I've accepted that that happens like if I know that it's there, that's the

awareness. I acknowledge that it is there and I have my coping mechanisms. Like sometimes I take deep breaths and I know it's coming, but it takes a lot of awareness to be aware of your awareness, to aware you to be aware of your mental health State. Also the situation that you're in and how you react on certain things and also accept that that is fine. Right, there's no right or wrong in there now and allowing yourself to Do that too. Yeah and it once I think that's why.

When I accepted it I am never going to get better. It's always going to be there. Yeah. Allowing myself to take those accommodations which I wouldn't do before. Yeah, just to help tremendously before I started therapy was like a there were people in this world that have it way worse than me. And if I allow myself that accommodation things like the headphones. Yeah. If I give myself that accommodation then you know who am I insulting? Who really needs it when you

know what? I really need it? Yeah, but I wouldn't let myself see that at the time. So When she both have the awareness and you are nice enough to yourself to accept that, you can take do the things that help you. Yeah, that that is where things can start to improve for you. Yeah, yeah. I've learned, I am so bad at taking care of myself, right?

I am horrible at receiving compliments. I am incredibly critically, a critical of other people and especially myself and I don't Like celebrate the small victories. Yeah, I don't get myself a gift. I don't give myself a little break. I have really hard time doing that. Yeah, well from my point of view, I give that to everyone else. I'm like you've worked so hard like it's time for a break or you did a great job or like obviously you deserve that but to myself like I am just really

bad at that. Yeah, I recognize that totally a horribly bad at that. And I've also recognize that that is not healthy. Now you need to take a break here and there you you can't go 120 percent all the time because that at some point that's going to break you and I don't think it has broken me. I think I've had moments where I had to be like, okay it's time to step down. Actually take a break, say no to things, which I'm also struggling with. Yeah. But then afterwards I'm so happy I did.

So happy that I said, no, that I said, no. I actually don't want to do this or no, we can't switch TimeWise because I have plans and like, I planned for this, like I would say no in the moment feel And then be so happy afterwards that I did. So, yeah. And yeah, it takes time. It takes awareness and experience to be like, okay, these are kind of my boundaries and and stay within those for yourself, right? Yeah. It's make that's super important. It's something that I haven't

quite got yet. I have been so busy this year and I think I'm really privileged because I have been so busy this year. Yeah. Then at the same point, I've also been over the top, I have said yes to things that I shouldn't have said, yes to, it's like, well, wow, you've asked me to do this? Well, I can't say no to you because then I'm a really bad person I am and so I've done. I was planning on doing one or

two things a month maximum. Yeah and I think ended up doing four or five things a month, sometimes that's a lot more. Like that's a lot more and I was exhausted and I've only just recently started to say to people. No, I can't do that yet. Yeah. So I think I've just had a request, you know what? I joined somebody for forgotten what it was for to do something online and I said I really want to But not this year.

Yeah, it's at january-february fine, but I have on the 1st of December, I've got one final meet up and then I am done until the end of the year. Yeah. And I am, then I'm done until the end of the year. I'm going to start a streaming, but I'm going until the end of the year, except, for my stream. Yeah. See, I'm not good at this. Yeah, no. I mean, I recognize that as well. I think it, Comes. Because first of all those things that you do probably give you a lot of energy and you love

doing. Yeah, that's the same for me right comes from a place of love and a place of passion. If I could, I would say yes to everything, squeeze it. As in a short timeframe as possible, except I know that doesn't work out. I can give my 100% to all those things in. That short amount of time, it doesn't work know, at some point. You get tired. You need to stop. It's yeah, recharge those batteries like yeah. It's it is another issue that That I have.

My therapist actually told me once to turn up, he gave me an order. Yeah, only time he's ever done it because he said, I am not here to tell you anything. I'm here to talk to you and help you find out what you need to do. Yeah. But one session is like, no, I don't want you to do anything in the evening until the next session. Yeah, I want you to give yourself a week off. See how that feels. And I had one of the biggest

breakdowns in my life that week. Yeah, I am because I am sitting on the sofa and my head, still going a thousand miles an hour. Then in the Netherlands, 23 years a thousand miles an hour. I am and It wasn't doing anything with it. So I was just on the sofa. My anxiety was just getting higher and higher, and I think I have the session on the Tuesday by the Thursday, I was upset. And by the Friday, I was just absolutely collapsed and the session that we had the week

after it was. How did it go? Oh yeah. I've never felt worse. Yeah. And we had a chat about it like yeah. You are not going to use a language, he used because otherwise you can't put the podcast out. You're in trouble. If you doing, you're in trouble. If you don't. Yeah. You are going to have that out because you can't work 8 hours a day and then do things for six hours in the evening. Yeah, doesn't work.

Seven days a week that that's not healthy but apparently, I also can't not do that physically. I can't do the work all the time and mentally I can't not do it because I To keep my brain occupied. Yeah, and please take that is slowly improving. Okay? That it's something that I really struggle with so that, that was kind of, okay? I either have to accept that. I'm going to have a breakdown. Maybe once or twice a year and try and catch it before it hits

and do something. Yeah. Arm or I'm going to be climbing the walls every evening and then I'm gonna have a breakdown that way. So, I opted for the break down a couple of times a year. Exactly. And on oddly enough, that has been a great choice. It because I I can feel in advance when it's going to hit and you can try and temper it at the time and try and okay. Like I know I'm going to burn out. Now you need to calm down. So I reckon we're going to do this.

We've got these commitments. Yeah. And after that you're going to build Lego. You're going to watch a Marvel movie. You're going to go for walk through the dunes, you're just going to Do something, which isn't that? And try and make sure that you even if it's not physical rest, even if you're still doing something to occupy yourself, you're going to try and make sure that it's not Work in air quotes. Yeah.

That makes a lot of sense. I think it's really, really cool that you have that kind of self-awareness. I don't think I have that yet. I do have like, pillars in my life, in my professional life. And in my social life, my girlfriend, my mom, like my siblings, my friends that are like, okay. Like you said, no, a bunch of times you're doing all these things like like take care of yourself. Do they keep me in? Check in that way, where they challenge me in that way as

well? Aren't you taking to Much like, should you have said, yes, because this is all back to back to back and that for me, are kind of my guidelines, a, my checks in my personal life because I know if I wouldn't have those, then I would run into a wall and have to like, get up and learn from that experience. Some, I'm really happy. I have those like people in my life and I think that's needed and healthy as well both in your professional life. Yeah, absolutely.

No life. Yeah, it's my son's managed to help me. Absolutely broke my heart but he's managed to help me a few times. I am in just my point of view. When my son says to me, are you going to be home? Are you home? Are you home now? Of you got to go again. Yeah it's like okay I'm doing too much. Exactly. Yeah. If that's their expectation. Yeah. It's okay. Now I have this and then I'm not going to do something for x amount of time.

Yeah. And I did actually say no. Talk in the UK in December. As I came. I would do it. Remote, I don't mind doing it remote. Family is going to my son's going to be in bed. I can go to my studio. I can give this talk. That's fine. Yeah. But no, I'm not going to be in person and they really wanted somebody in person. So awesome is like let me know. If you've got another slot next year that you want filling. I would love to do this talk. But no not now. Yeah, exactly.

I am home now until the end of January, I like that. That is the promise that I gave to my son. Yeah. And I'm not going to break that promise. Yeah, I like that a lot.

I invite a lot of people on as a guest on the podcast and some people tell me like okay this is not like I can do it from eggs day. I can't I have way too many commitments and I'm like okay these people know their boundaries, like this is where healthy. I'm not going to push, that's it. I appreciate their feedback as well. And I'm not going to overstep those boundaries. No, I'm not gonna push in that way, either. I think that's a really nice one today.

I did have one conference this year, which did overstep the boundary. Yeah. And it caused me to say yes, to something that I should have said no to. Anyway, yeah arm but more than that it meant that when I had to say no after all, I just felt truly awful and I I regret that I didn't keep to my boundaries as I should have done. And I'm actually really angry that the conference didn't take my initial answer. Yeah, exactly. And it was like, okay, I don't

know if I can do that date. It's like Let me get back to you. Yeah. And they kept on pushing and pushing and pushing and it's not about find out. I'm just going to say yes but we'll see what happens. Yeah, and it was a, I should not have said yes. I feel bad because I drop them in it because I said yes. And then I couldn't go but at the same point, I was brutally honest, upfront and then carried on being pushed to it. Yeah.

So I think the fact that you recognize those boundaries and you don't push people to it. Well, thank you, no problem. No, I appreciate that. And and I think my sense of appreciation is like that because I have a hard time doing that myself. So when other people do that I'm like, yeah, that's what I want to be able to do as well when it gets to that point. Yeah, I have too many things that I can just say, like, no then and then is better because I, otherwise I can and that's it.

There's no F4, but like that's it, take it or leave it, otherwise we leave it. That's also fine. I really enjoyed this conversation. So far, one of the lingering questions I have is I think If

you have mental health issues, if they're small or big taking that first step in seeking help, I go into a professional or going to your partner or friends and family in that way and talking about it. I think that is necessary to get out of it or to get that sense of awareness to get that mirror in front of you. But I also think that that's my assumption in there, that a lot of people would struggle with that or see just then an uphill battle with that.

Yeah, what advice would you give for people to kind of climb that hill in that way? I think, first of all, absolutely, the reason why I Talk about mental health at conferences. The reason why I said to you, yeah, I would love to come on your podcast and talk about mental health is because it is such a taboo subject that it makes it hard to get started. Yes, I knew that I needed help. Probably six to 12 months before I asked for it, but I was just terrified of actually saying to somebody.

I think I have this issue. so, I think it's Outside of what the person can do for society, as a whole. We need to start removing that to do. And it, I've seen it more and more conferences, excuse me. I have seen it are in general discussions and we're going the right way. Yes, there's a long way to go but we're going the right way that that taboo is so slowly starting to be eroded. For the person themselves.

The best thing that I can suggest from my experience, is find somebody that you can trust with it. Yeah, and that is such a hard thing to do. I have two groups of friends, one group tried to be supportive, but the way that they were supportive, just made it ten times worse for me, okay? And one group was actually What've ya and the people that made it worse, they really

weren't trying to be nasty. To me, I have had the people that were nasty but these people they weren't they didn't appreciate what they were saying, okay? So they were the people that would at the point where I am struggling, To even show up for something. Would still say you just got to push yourself to do it. The more you do it, the easier it gets. Yeah, they didn't respect your boundaries. No and it's like, okay, so I push myself to do it. And I made myself worse and worse and worse.

And I left numerous work functions in tears because I was trying to I don't know live up to people's expectations is maybe not quite it, but it's about the best description that I can get into my head at the moment. And but the people that said, those things in their smile more, if you smile more than you'll feel better. Because when you smile it releases dopamine, it's like honestly, I am really pleased that for some people that works

that way. But, ya know, if you have some serious, mental health issues smiling doesn't release dopamine. The actually does the opposite because you smile, you do everything that people tell you should be doing to make yourself feel better. Yeah, as many doesn't work. And there's a well, what the hell is wrong with me? It's everybody's saying if I do this, it's going to improve and it's not. What is it with me? And then just really drive to

deep into yourself. Yeah. The people that you need to find talk to other people, I needed to find to talk to Were the people that actually listened and didn't offer Solutions but ask more what can we do? Yeah everything that works for me all the things that I've said

all the things that I've said it talks I always say the same thing. It is my story. This is what worked for me. Yeah. It might not work for any other person on the planet but it's what worked for me and you need to find your own things. So somebody's if you're speaking to somebody, then you need somebody who's going to S? What do you need me to do? Yeah, what can I do to support? And to help you, I have people that it's okay. What do I need to look out for?

So I know when something's happening and then what do I need to do at that time? Yeah and they are the people that can provide you with the most support Absolutely. I'm so it's for me aside from just getting that energy and courage to actually go to a doctor and say I have mental

health problems, I need help. Yeah, the other thing is just make sure that you if you have someone that you're talking to make sure that it's somebody that is going to be there and do the things that you need and not the things that they either want to do to help you or think that they need to do to help you rather than actually listening to you and and helping you. Yeah, exactly. They need to help you and your own way, right? Not what they think you need but

what you actually exactly. And it's and that's different for everybody. It's I gave a talk at NBC Oslo. Hopefully, it's going to be on YouTube some because aside from the fact that I was what I'm looking for. Embarrassed I am embarrassed that I spent half an hour on stage, almost in tears, but it was such an important thing for me to say. Yeah. And I've no idea where I was going with this. I warned you. This was gonna happen. No worries. I got halfway through a sentence

and it's gone now. Oh, yes! Me and my co-presenter Denny. Yeah, then at the clerk we have totally different needs. Okay? Arm he needs. Crowds and bustle and energy. Yeah. And that would drive me. Absolutely. Under the floor, if if I'm in the middle of her depressive, mood or anxiety attack. Yeah, I do not need that. I need the opposite of that. I need somebody. Just to be with me, they don't necessarily have to say anything. Yeah, I might be incapable of talking to them.

But I need them to be there. So I know they're there, where is he? Needs that energy and social interaction and everything else? And that's why we decided to do the tour together because we are just so different. But we both have the same mental health issue. It's just what we need is difficult is yeah, it's totally different. Yeah, so we actually bounced it off of each other quite nicely with the whole. Okay. So you need that.

I think you saying it covid-19. Cuz it meant that he had to be alone. Yeah, covid-19 for me because I didn't have to go into social situations, I appreciate that. It was a horrible thing for the world and tragic, but for me personally being locked up in my office in my home. Yeah, that your compass so, yeah, that totally put me in my comfort zone. Yeah. So, yes, I having somebody that can listen to you and give you

what you need, whether that's silent, whether that's telling you to get over yourself. If that's what works for you really not for me. Please don't do that to me, or just talking to you normally like nothing's going on. Just so you have that sense of normalcy, whatever you need that person to do. If you've got somebody that can be, that support that is going to be Absolute gold for you. Yeah, yeah. That's what you need. And then taking that first step is a lot smaller in that way.

If you trust that person, they're also going to react in the way that you expect them to. Yeah. Because you have that trust built up States. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this. I think I agree with you. When I'm, when you said we're opening more about it, it is not a taboo subject, it shouldn't be at least and I think we're trending towards the better in that way. So, thank You for coming on and sharing your story as well. Thank you for having me.

Is there anything you would still like to share with our audience as we're rounding off? No, I think I've pretty much covered everything at so yeah. Look after yourselves. And yeah, yeah, sure. Once you have that link of the conference talking also send it to me. I'll look at it. And also I'm going to put all Stacey's links to our socials in the comment section below. Check her out. Let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thanks

for listening. We'll see you on the next one. Bye.