Life Altering Events and Personal Growth with Joseph Muli

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akil and for today's guest I have someone who's a true storyteller and finds fulfillment and joy in solving people's problems. Joseph Mooley, my friend and colleague over here Xevia. I truly love this conversation. His openness and vulnerability, the way he carries himself and the stories he tells. Enjoy this episode Beyond coding.

You're in Zika, right? Yes. Is Levant your your mentor? Levant is my mentor. Levant is. I don't think there's a single word to define what he is. Yeah. What he represents and what he means to me as a person. He's he's incredible. Yeah, right. He's the very first person who taught me how to accept and recognize and just. Show your own identity how he embodies identity is something I have not seen before. It's so authentic. Extremely. Yeah. It's it's it's addictive.

Yeah. And we we hang out a few times. We've gone fishing as well. It's one of his hobbies. Very cool person. I think everyone should talk to Levant. I agree. Spend some time with the Levant. He's, for me, He had a role that has been exemplary, exemplary, basically the way he carries himself, the way he holds a conversation, his values and the strength like in which he upholds them, I think that's very admirable. Yeah, it's.

I can't explain it. Yeah, I feel privileged to experience it. And every single time is a great time with him. Yeah, I can imagine. I I I mean he has a he has been with the company for like 20 years. It's. A lot of time I wish I would have known him, let's say at kind of the start or somewhere, the mid of his journey, 'cause we're now seeing all the learnings. They're all like honed in the way he carries himself.

But those were all learnings and I would like to know and learn from that, like what they were more so than I know now, basically. Yeah, well, the beauty of it is he's he's here, he's there. You can book a meeting, talk to him. We've had some very powerful conversations. And one of the things that I

always wondered always just became curious about is how did you become the person you are today? And I think one of the small, small conversations you and I have had is sometimes it takes a catastrophic life event to shift your perspective or your world or to get you to question your belief systems. And he remembers what that was for him. I think it would be a great story. I won't spoil it. Find Levant. Yeah, he will tell you about that. That's good.

It's, it's interesting that it could be that you can pinpoint that it's this specific event, yes, that's when it when it happened. Yeah. For you. Could you do you know that specific event as well? Do you have one or how would you say that is? I have a lot, a lot of them. The most recent one was. I think that the the greatest one was the loss of my dad. This was when I was about 13 years old. Yeah, so he he left us or he passed on just when I was starting high school.

My first year in high school. Read it for it. Actually only had done about half a time of that. So we we have like 3 times. I think that was the old system. I don't know whether it's the current system. Things might have changed, but. When he did, I come from a family of four, now we are three. Ever since he passed, he was, he was our breadwinner. My mom has a very strong entrepreneurial spirit so she still had a business. She was able to hold it down.

She's always been. She's the strongest one amongst us all. But of course you know you have to understand the loss of a partner in in such a time is not the easiest thing to carry, is not the easiest thing to flow with and. Yeah, eventually we we we lost everything. So my my whole world shattered everything. I came to have made sense of ever since I was a child, because I did. I grew up OK. Hey, that I want a bike. That gets me a bike at some point in life.

That I think computers are cool. You know what? He loved computers. He he loved math. And this is how I learned how to type on the keyboard, because he would bring folders of documents and ask for help. Would you like to help me with this? Of course. I mean, it's not a game, but it's using the computer. So I'm going to type everything out enough to not even want to look at the keyboard and just identify the keys because I'm. I'm just enjoying the

interaction. Yeah, but when he'd left, then everything went. Our family was there for us. They did take us in. But you know the experience of being woken up at 4:00 AM in the morning by by my mom and her telling me and my sister, find the biggest bag you can find and put everything you can carry and we have to leave in about an hour. That was not a fun experience.

Yeah. And. Of course, over the time, you know, getting into survival mode, thinking about the fight or flight, you're gonna get really numb or you're gonna make some really bad decisions while you are conscious of it. I somehow managed to be so numb through the entire period. Fast forward to when I turn 28 years old or when I turn 27. I decided to start therapy. And I have been doing it for about 2 1/2 years now.

And that's when my therapist is telling me, yeah, I think you've been numb and you've been in mourning for the last 13 years. Yeah. And you didn't realize it. Of course, that's that's also, that was the latest, greatest moment of realization. My God, I've been surviving. I'm looking at everything in the sense of like, take what you need because we need to survive. And that perspective kind of sheds You see everything that way. Not the easiest place to be, I can imagine, Yeah.

So how was that step in? Kind of because I think if you if you go to therapy, you might acknowledge that you need help in, in a certain way, yes. But to acknowledge that I think takes a long time. It does. It either takes time or something happens and triggers it all. And for me, what did OK was. A relationship ended. So I was in a relationship with who's also a friend at the moment. She's in Kenya. It was a long distance relationship during COVID. Of course, that was not the

easiest time for anyone as well. Yeah. And when that came to an end, that kind of tipped the bucket. And that gave me the moment to realize and look around and actually see myself and not recognize myself enough to understand I actually need help. You know, the same logic that got me here is probably not the same that's going to take me. Where I wanna go, Where do I wanna go, you know?

And as much as that might be, in fact, it's a very terrible place to be. I try to be more positive with that because we we cannot run away from problems. In fact, I I kind of welcome problems because I get to learn in the process. So to me, it's an opportunity to start from fresh to build it from my own perspective, from a very conscious perspective or intentional perspective as well. Which gave me the chance to define the person I am today. Yeah, so that did tip the bucket.

But as as painful as it was, it was, it was the beginning of my own, my own journey. Yeah, Thanks for for sharing that, first of all. And for me the, the true

question I have lies in kind of this awareness of, you know, this has been your path, right. And you know the tipping points, but to get to a point where the awareness is there, I think that takes a long time. It does. It takes a lot of conversations probably, and a lot of self reflection. It does to get to a point where you're talking about this. And I whenever I talk about my catastrophic events, I tear up even thinking about them.

We had, for example, we joined this kind of session where we had to share something about a personal life. And one of the questions was like a genuine catastrophic event that you could share with someone. And even by thinking and by listening to other people, I got very emotional. Like I'm a very emotional person and trying to explain kind of my my catastrophic event and my mom getting cancer for two years in a row basically and how that affected me. I have a hard time communicating

that like even still. And the way you, the way you carry yourself and also explain that conversation and those catastrophic events, I feel like you've, I wouldn't say moved on from them, but you've accepted that they happened and you can carry it with you in a way that I cannot yet I feel like.

Yes, eventually I think, you know, I I can't speak from your own experience, but what I can't share is from what I have seen and I push myself to talk about it as much as I can when because I enjoy storytelling and my story is the one I can tell the best since I am a literal reflection. Of everything I have been through.

And that also comes from way back when I was in primary school just a small child, we had the privilege to have the ADVD player in in my street, you know the the place I was born. So when we got these fancy movies and my dad used to bring them from work like bad boys two, you know at the at the time Ali 2000s. Very big movie, right?

Yeah, I will watch that show. And I will memorize everything about it. The color of the vehicles, the sounds they make with the guns, the cars and the screeches. And I will narrate that to my friends when I go to school, telling the stories and existing in that emotional space, doing all the acting and moving and all that, that that I enjoy that. And that's where my love for storytelling comes from. So when it came to telling my

own story. The biggest lesson I did realize about getting more confident in that is just sharing. It gives me a moment of reflection every single time. And different people have given me different perspectives, which is great because we're all unique and we all probably see things different. You know, what you think about me is not what I think you think about me. It's it's always kind of different. So every time I get to learn something new about myself.

Because I'm also just reflective as much as you're reflective to

me. Yeah. Well, perspective has truly stuck with you in kind of sharing your story with someone and then reflecting back to you. There are some painful ones, and there are also some empowering ones. Some of the painful ones are. I've been told that I'm still talking about the same story, you know, It's almost like I haven't moved on. Which is important to think about. But I've also been told, you know, that sounds absolutely

insane. Some people were not able to comprehend what that felt like because there was some crazy times. And I mean, you will see me on this table with an with an iPad, but about 7-8 years ago I was cleaning shoes in an open air market and not to say that this is. A place where I wanted to be. For the most part, all these things have just become they're just tools that you collect on the way to wherever you're trying to go. You mean the experiences? Yes, experiences with the gadgets.

I, I, I don't really care much about these things as long as they serve the purpose they're meant to serve. And for the most part, that's how I end up getting everything I I kind of want to get, which also shed some light on how. How I look at them because I I have a problem with gratitude. I have a problem with appreciation, which somewhat is a side effect of being in survival mode. You don't really get to regard a lot of things because you're

just trying to survive. You're trying to feed your family, you're trying to eat or you're trying to sleep or make it to school. So that shoe is not going to matter that much. You know, cars not going to matter so much. As long as I can get there. So that's there's a lot of that going on, Yeah, Yeah. And it's a constant battle. I get that you started with kind

of the, I guess, the biggest catastrophic event. And that's I think one of the pillars where your story really starts now we're somewhere here and it's a, it's probably a different person than than way back then. I mean, just by virtue of years that have passed since, but also the learnings that you've gained. Yes. How would you, how would you start? I mean that's what I would assume is the starting point, but what other pillars were like big within that journey of yours?

Finding community that may have just been the greatest one because coming from a place where we could not afford education at all it it was never in the in the vision. Yeah. As much as the dreams we had, the dreams I had still have our big. And need education on the way. This was never something that was in my radar. But finding a community that was accepting really questioned everything I knew you know was

coming from where I came from. It was almost you have to fight for yourself and you have to and you're living. Go back home, try that again or just continue the loop. So I found this community. What community was that? Right now it's evolved so much, I don't quite recognize it, but you know, evolution, growth, it comes with a lot more success. There's a coding boot camp called Moringa School, which is based in Nairobi, Kenya. And at the time they were just

beginning. So very small community and there's also a A building. Well, it used to be a building, but now it's a community. It's called IHOP in Nairobi. This is where a lot of the tech events in Kenya. Who are helped so getting or gaining access to these people who were just willing to help you fix the problems you are you are trying to fix to debug, learn a programming language or just to get to see how these big companies or innovative companies operate or start or grow.

That was a candy store for me, I can imagine. Yeah, so that's why. That's why I'm at Saviour at the moment. It's the community, it's the people. And this sort of environment makes me feel like home. And I did try to step away from it for about 3 years because I did join Xavier earlier this year. Before that I was working for another company called Betty Blocks, which was like, you know, formal employment, full time employment, but lacking in community. Did, yeah.

I realize this is where I actually want to be and I enjoy doing this because of all the challenges that I enjoy being in the fire, which I think is the shortest way to describe it. So getting access to a community did show me that, you know, Nairobi wasn't the biggest city that's actually out there.

And the problems Nairobi is solving are very different from the problems Kampala is solving. Uganda, South Africa. OK, so we are. We started to learn about containers, right, about when they, you know, became so popular 20/16/2017. But the biggest question I did have is you know, who are the guys who are coming up with these concepts? Where are they? What are they talking about and what are they doing?

And it was my mission to find those communities and be a part of those conversations, because I've always enjoyed a holistic point of view. And I mean, solving a problem on any level of abstraction is always going to be interesting because it's a it's a problem, it's logical. But thinking in terms of collaboration from a higher level is something I definitely appreciate to have before I get

deep down into the details. And so when I was looking at the conversations we were having there, at the time, I was working with another consultancy organization called Andela. They still exist. They did some great things. In Africa as well. That wasn't it. It started to feel repetitive and this is part of the ongoing conversation about the the tech industry in Africa in general. Still very young, a lot of problems to solve, which is

great, yeah. But in my perspective, those were not the problems I wanted to start with. I needed a little more context, a little more background, and also a little more experience. And I found that here. Yeah, And that is eventually what led me to this country.

That's really cool. Yeah. What? What problems? Like, how are the problems different? Because they are different problems. But I I don't think I have a good picture in imagining what they are. I think to put them on very. Maybe I will call this an uninformed perspective is we By the way, I am also part of a few groups that are trying to solve some problems and this is the common theme.

So one of the applications or one of the startups and part of is called Natrella and the idea of this app, the idea this team has is to solve a challenge in the mental health industry, get people access. To help give them an idea, plant a seed tell them you know what by the way this there's a way to handle these things and I there's an African way of dealing with problems that always has been it's like I know how to drive but I'm not licensed to drive.

There's a there's a way to think about it. I would think about it then about just to get back to the point. Most of the problems we we face or we solve are very user facing and they are client focused but. That did give me an idea. We end up using abstractions that were built elsewhere to solve different problems. Yeah, and I wanted to start there.

Maybe that's me looking for control, but I I I have questioned myself a lot about that because there's pros and cons to having that kind of perspective.

I am led by curiosity. Some people will find me annoying. Annoyingly curious. I ask a lot of questions, but it's just genuine curiosity and for the most part, one of the ways I define myself, which I would call a love language I do have, is Acts of service, and in order to know how to serve someone, I need to get some context, understand them a little bit. And I can't do that by asking questions which will definitely seem annoying, or I can spend time with them.

I get to learn a few things, see how they handle golf, see how they handle a bicycle or what they think about the sunset, various things. And sometimes you have the opportunity to do that, sometimes you do not. Yeah. And of course, adversity everywhere. So you have to navigate with that. So it it does happen at times, but that was the perspective I wanted to look for. And there's a lot of richness when it comes to the Netherlands especially. The Netherlands was not in

particular the focus. It was either going to be the US or Europe in general. And how I ended up here in particular I I came through a recommendation from a friend who had never been to Europe at all and he was supposed to go to Brussels, but his flight to Brussels was cancelled. So he had to come to Schiphol and then take a bus to Brussels. And he went through the Netherlands and he liked what he saw. And a couple of months later he

moved. And then that was me getting a text from from I think one of his friends at the time.

And she asked me, hey, would you be interested to relocate to the Netherlands? Why not let's do this sell. I sold everything I had hoped on a one way flight to a country I had never been, never thought of at all. But I have come to appreciate a lot. How were you able to make such a like drastic decision? Kind of what it sounds to me like on a on a whim, yes, I am able to do a lot of that a lot of the times. And that is because my idea of home was this was broken from

when we lost our home. Because that's that's what I thought the idea of home should be. So you want to ask me to go to the desert? I don't know what the place I'm in right now means. So yeah, it's it's it actually sounds fun. Let's do it. And the only thing that held me back in Kenya is my mom and my sister, because they're still there. So I definitely had to talk to them, but the conversation I brought to them was mom. I think this is a way I can support us better.

It's it logically makes sense and that was the that was the foundational idea of making that decision. But I did come to, again through therapy of course start to reflect on how that idea I had of home was broken down. I mean it's always going to be a journey. So I do not have the answers, but I gained a little conscious perspective into maybe I can rethink that idea now.

Yeah, maybe I can start to define what that idea looks for me. And that was the that that is a part of defining what love is for myself. So that's also connected to another deeper story and we can, we can go for days. There's there's a lot to talk about that of course. But I hope I answered your

question. I think so. For me the the burning questions I still have is I I I see your path, I see your track. And I hear part about your values and part about what you appreciate, right On the appreciation side, it's really finding communities, people that are like minded people that give you inspiration and innovation and ideas to move forward. And then on the other side the things that you value or the things that drive you more.

So you said curiosity was one of them and I can really relate to that. I mean the the fact that we do a podcast and I talk to. Hundreds of people as, curiosity as. Curiosity and it it has always been a big driver of me in also understanding how things work because I feel like and I've I've truly come to realize that more so in having conversations. If I do not understand how

things work. It's very hard for me to give my all, basically, to give my energy, to give my all and to just without trust, follow someone or drive something or carry something basically. Yes. So that combined with curiosity also I'm I'm going to look at myself probably makes me very annoying in asking those questions or trying to understand.

But I feel like the more you learn about yourself and kind of this path of self improvement, the better you are at the end of it, at the outcome of it and the more you leverage that in whatever you're doing on a personal level, on a professional level, on any level, yes, I agree.

Those learnings for you. In what you value, what you appreciate, what your drivers are. Did they come mostly through kind of this journey when you went into therapy and and realizing kind of what had happened in the past or when did it truly like start and start to pick off as well. So it definitely came from at least the intentional part of it started through therapy. Yeah, that's why I have this iPad with me.

I'm going to read you something or give you an idea of it, but it also did the seed was planted from just being accidentally around people who are thinking in those dumps. Yeah. And that's why community is important because just by existing in the space of people who are doing this, who are questioning beliefs and in a way that's, you know, not toxic, but of course you can't run away from that. You know, we have to deal with everything at the same time. It's it's chaos everywhere,

always. But existing around those people just planted that seed for me. And once I got into therapy, then I had the chance to ask myself those questions. And now when I have a conversation with someone and they are talking about authenticity, and now those become tangible because I can sit and think, I understand what my values are. I have a feeling I know what I can bring to the table and I have an idea of what I feel like I would need to be there for the people I care about.

Yeah. And even those I do not know. So it kind of becomes a driving factor for everything that you're doing. When it comes to work, it it almost applies everywhere because I look at work as I am serving people, and when I'm in service, I will do everything I can to make sure that I am there for them. And even though this is in context through, you know, a very capitalistic world, it still serves me well to understand that one of my values is fulfillment.

At the end of the day, I can, you know, go home and reflect on all the things I was able to do, those I wasn't, and how I can make sure that I will be better tomorrow. Not just for them, but for myself as well. Yeah, 'cause I I really need to be at my best or have an idea of how I'm doing and where I'm at in order to know whether I can actually do something good for you or we're just wasting time.

Yeah. How often do you reflect like that? Is it on a on a daily basis? On a weekly basis it's, it's actually so many times it's a problem. It's too much. It's there's a lot, there's a lot. Which is also the reason why I switched to like machines because I filled books with thoughts and notes and ideas. And I mean there's there's there's some interesting

journeys that were involved. You know, if we we could talk about religious aspects and the role those have or those have had on My Life Substances as well. There's a lot of of experiences that were involved in changing belief systems. And at the end of it all now I have to struggle with at least letting things be and being OK with uncertainty, which I think is a problem everyone faces.

Yeah, so I I do maybe twice a week, which should be enough to start the week with an idea of what I want to do. And even though it doesn't always go that way, I'm still going to sit and remember all the all the good things that happened, all the bad things that happened. If I can remember any of that. And if there's anything to celebrate, I will celebrate. Sometimes, you know, it's sometimes I forget, sometimes it comes up because I'm also neurodiverse. So 1000 thoughts a minute.

So sometimes I will remember it and I will prioritize the most in regards to serving people. And that's probably what makes

me a workaholic, because I'm I'm just going to do everything to make sure that everyone around me is OK. Yeah, You think that's also because I I recognize that in part with myself and earlier you touched on kind of having a challenge with gratitude as well. Is that, do you think where it comes from as well kind of that driving workforce? And sometimes being hot, like feeling difficulty in accepting a compliment, for example. Honestly, that's still a mystery for me, but I do struggle with

compliments a lot. I do not know how to accept them. I can recognize them because in literal times they are compliments. You understand that's supposed to be positive, but the emotional perspective of it, it's something I completely lack. And I know I lost it at some point, but it's not very much been a priority to, you know, to

seek. But I've read a couple of books, talked to a couple of people who have given me the idea, for example, of gratitude is something that can exist in a space where anxiety cannot exist. And such ideas are what would inspire me to dig a little deeper in understanding how I can and understand gratitude a little more, yeah, and apply it in my life. Gratitude cannot exist in a place where anxiety exists.

Yeah, I have had some thoughts in the same line and but every time I try to think of that in a logical sense, kind of feels like something is taking the place of something which sounds useful or efficient and how while looking at it that way might be unfortunate, that just happens to be the gate in which I can pursue that and that's something I've definitely written down somewhere to look at. Yeah, I thought about it. I was like, does that make sense? And for me, it does make sense.

I've talked about this on the show as well. I also have a hard time accepting compliments. I'm trying to do better and whenever. Especially if I'm reflecting now, whenever I would get a compliment, I would always say things that I thought could be improved and that could be from a place of anxiety or feeling not good enough for yes, having kind of a bar that is too high that I didn't reach for my own self expectation. Yes. So in that sense, I I do

recognize that, yeah. That feels very familiar. Yeah. Yeah, you also mentioned that

religious or religion as a concept as well as. Substances played a role in kind of your your story and your past experiences, yes. Is there anything you want to share with regards to that? Yes, I do. I mean, I don't know. I have to question that because I'm on film. Whatever, you're comfortable. It's not like it's not like anything that's unspoken or illegal. I consume a lot of content, yeah, around the idea of psychedelics in psychedelic

experiences. In fact, I listen to a lot of podcasts that have those conversations. And I do understand the idea of relating psychedelic experiences to religious experiences, the role they have played in history, in a lot of history we have. And that is also, in fact a lot of history towards the origin of religion. And that is a very hot topic, yeah, which we can definitely talk about. But not on this one, not on this one. What podcast do you listen to? Then it's Divas.

There's a few people I can recommend. One of them is called Brian. I do not know his second name. I can check that out, but I want to. I don't want to pull out my phone. We'll we'll do that. Just just out of curiosity, there's a there's a guy called Graham Hancock. I've heard that name, yes. He has some very interesting conversations going on in any podcast he's a part of.

He's written some books and there's been a lot of conflict, especially with religious organizations, around some of his research and some of his discoveries. But you know what? Some of it, at least the much that I have read and listened to, and it's not just him. There's a couple of people. And when I sit and think about that and I relate to the experiences I have had, it does it makes sense. At least it makes sense for me because part of that is how I got to question my own belief

systems. Part of that is when I got to recognize, yes, I do have an ego.

I don't like how it comes out in my words, in my writing and how I talk to people. So how I interact with people today is not the same way I used to interact with other people. And that also comes with being very insecure, being very conscious of everything you're saying or even writing or not even writing at all because of the insecurity.

But, you know, getting through those experiences did get me to question that did give me a chance at, you know, stating my own case and becoming intentional with it, accepting vulnerability and identifying ways to grow empathy for all the things and people around me. Yes, there had to be a trigger, and I wish there wasn't. You know, I wish this was something we all had. Yeah, maybe the world would be a lot more better, but I don't know whether that is better.

I also don't know sometimes I I have conversations with people that. They say they haven't had anything catastrophic like happened to them and they tell me they wish certain things wouldn't have happened to me. And those words are kind of unfamiliar with me, like they I can't really put put them in place because for me experiences make you who you are at the end of the day and they are experiences and you some you can't really change like in in

any way or form. They just happen and you come out of them differently. Sometimes better, sometimes stronger, sometimes it takes a while. Sometimes you just change and you can't really do anything about that. No, you just have to find a way to accommodate with this new perspective that you have. Yes, and carry on with it. Yeah. I think we all play a role in everyone's story. Especially if, you know, we happen to exist in the same space and time. Yeah, then these are there are

lessons that can be learnt. That's why we read all those books. I watch movies. I'm a very big movie, and in fact I used to sell movies. At some point I will talk about that, but I have friends who also tell me they haven't gone through that. And yeah, I I I don't know whether everyone is supposed to go through something big or catastrophic. But however your story has been, that's just who you are. And maybe there's a lot more to appreciate.

Maybe there's a lot less. We do not define the boundaries for that. We just get to go through the experience and hopefully leave some positivity for the next person or the person who's sitting next to you. Absolutely. The openness that you have and

the way you communicate in kind of you're putting yourself out there, You're being vulnerable. For me it looks like it's effortless and I don't know if you do that or with intent still, or if that's something that's just. Been kind of second nature after having learned a lot about yourself. But I do see or I I can imagine where it adds value in your life or in your professional life in that way. Is that still intentional? Do you do that on a more intent level or has it become kind of

second nature? And then secondly, how does it kind of benefit you along the way? It's very intentional it. It has become a part of who I am. Yeah, so I do lead by vulnerability and and empathy. I do want to talk to the human being, not the colleague. And emotion plays a very huge role in it. And the biggest reason for this is because when I like it, but before I came to like it, I had to accept that was my reality at the time.

I never had the chance to express myself in the way that I wanted to. I felt like I didn't have the stage until I realized I can create the stage. And with that came the idea of fostering that conversation with my friends. But before I even got to my friend, of course I had to really question where this was coming from. Because from the society I was born into, The idea of what it be, what it means to be a man, has very little to do with emotion.

And here I am communicating in emotion or in emotional terms, connecting from vulnerability. So yeah, I do not want to bring that up because I kind of don't really want to face that conflict or that argument. I was there is an ego type for this, which I don't have in mind right now. But I will send you a link about the various ego types and how they have all these properties. So I did recognize myself in one

of them. I think it's the ostrich, you know put your head in the sand because you don't want to deal with life. And that was just a big part of my life until I got this intentional opportunity to define that. And that was therapy Again.

I sought help because I, you know, I think it's it became more logical for me and I wish I remember why I could make that decision because then I can tell everyone that hopefully makes a difference. But it is very intentional and I like it because I really get to connect with people from a place where I can see maybe who they really are. And that's the person I want to talk to and that's the person who maybe I will get a chance to help or maybe just get to exist

around. It's it's it's a privilege that I appreciate being around and it's something I recognize and a lot of people, especially 11th, you know we we we brought him up and he is very genuine and part of defining what that genuine is for me is seeing a lot of vulnerability and he wears it on the hat. Yeah, this is who I am. And this is how we can be. And even without those boundaries, even though it sounds like I'm communicating boundaries, there's absolutely none.

And that means you can just drop the load. Yeah, sit and have a conversation. Feel appreciated. Yeah, I get that there are, I

feel like, mental boundaries, yes, because there's boundaries and there's hierarchy just by virtue of having different positions and. People judging each other financially, professionally, those are all kind of boundaries. And especially early on when I would have a seat at a table like this and the person across from me would be the CTO or the CEO. Like I would be very, very nervous about any conversation, especially if I would have to talk.

And having had more of an opportunity to talk to just people in this profession, doesn't matter what they do. Finding kind of this equal level of conversation has been where the most value happens. And I think that happens when exactly as you mentioned, you come from a place of this is who I am, this is me and my vulnerability. My this is me being vulnerable. This is me being kind of

professional. You have this different kind of ranges there, but having those conversations I think is is way better than just thinking about the boundaries that are there. Yes. And it's it's hard every time and there are definitely times when people will not want that. And you know, you have to respect that. You also have to appreciate that that's, you know, conscious. And that's OK. I mean, sometimes it works,

sometimes it doesn't. It's been difficult actually navigating with it, but it hasn't deterred me from it because that's just who I want to be and I'm accepting of everything that comes in my way. Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna ask that because I I think I'm, I like to be friends with the

people I work at, not just on a work level, but even on a personal level. Because I feel like having those relationships, being able to trust each other on that level, makes the team side of things, makes it stronger. Yes. Which means the end result, the productivity and the output of the team makes it better. It does. And I I want to. Do the best that I can as a person as well as in a team. It does so every time. A-Team doesn't really do that

well. I find myself navigating towards fixing team issues rather than doing my thing, sweeping my own St. in that way, and I I don't think that'll ever go away. I have however, worked with a person, a colleague that said work is work and personal life is personal life. Yes, you and I cannot meet outside of work. Because then we would cross those boundaries.

And that was for me, from that level my perspective was very difficult working together with because they were like, I can see what you're trying to do. These are my boundaries and we cannot cross that. And I could not. I didn't want to force anything. I I respected those boundaries and I tried to uphold by them. And I I gave my energy to other people instead. I still had the work relationship and we did what we needed to do within the same team, but that was difficult. OK?

That is definitely hard, man, 'cause that that feels to me like taking away the humanity part of it, you know, let's just be robots, yeah? It's like, this is my work life, yeah, it's just do what we are supposed to do and leave and go back home. And I mean, the other side of it is also not the easiest because, you know, anyone who's tried to do business with family or friends can tell it's not the easiest thing to do. And maybe we should talk about

that more. Maybe we should talk about what it actually means to meet someone where they are at. Because I feel like that genuinely does work for me every time. The hardest part about defining that is actually defining it, or being with people who don't want to do that, or who don't do that work, or who don't recognize

that. And there's a lot of people who don't, which is the most unfortunate thing that there is about it. But being able to connect with someone from that particular point, man, it's a beautiful relationship because you can just be yourself. Yeah, you are not afraid to fail. 100%, Yeah. Because failure is not a thing. It's just a lesson. We're tripping. OK, great. Let's pick yourself up or you will be picked up. That's what I was gonna say, yeah.

And you get to there is no limit to that. And I wish there would be more of that, because maybe we can do better things or greater things. Yeah. Whenever I think of when I felt like my team was the most effective, that's when I was working with my friends. That's where we had a level that was close to what I imagined perfect kind of level work relationship.

Friend relationship would be like because I've never had better and what I'm striving towards now in the relationships in the teams that I have, it's kind of an equal level of that, OK And sometimes it makes me sad because I don't think I'll ever reach that level, probably because it was new and I've I've just never had that same experience. Small team, I felt super productive. I was younger and early in my career and I was learning a lot.

And just looking at how people did the things they did on a software level, on a consultancy level was just a joy to learn from and to be part of. And I think I I still want that. I'll always work towards trying to get that. Yes, that's one of my at least with the person I am today and the values I have today. That's where I draw an if statement. If if that's true, then you will continue to see me in that space or or in that moment.

And if it's not true and I have to leave, then I will know I have done everything I could to make a difference or to adapt. Cuz adaptation also just it becomes part of your story when you are going through mud and you have to step differently. If the last one didn't work, you definitely have to change, otherwise you are gonna remain in the mud. Yeah, I was wondering because I I'm curious to hear your

perspective on this. Last week I talked to actually a few days ago I talked to Michael Doyle and he's a, he's an engineering manager and I'm for me right now, I see an engineering manager track as kind of a next career path that might be an option for me. But one of the fears I have is just by virtue of having those relationships or being a person that wants to have those kind of relationships that are not just. Work life, but that are assimilating with kind of

personal life. Yeah. Growing to a point where you might become manager of the people that you want to build those relationships with by virtue of there being that hierarchy, you might not be able to create those relationships anymore. But I do feel like I want my leaders to be empathetic, to be vulnerable, to want to build those relationships. Yes, That's when I want to strive to be.

But I'm not sure if I can create that from that position just by virtue of there being that hierarchy innately. Because at the end of the day, financially, managers influence what happens to their team to a certain degree and above them the management level there. It all trickles down like that. And I feel like those boundaries are sometimes also what kind of then withholds people from creating those relationships?

They are, yeah. They at least they play a role in it. Leadership to me is difficult. I mean, there's there's definitely some things to be fulfilled about leadership, but it's very exhausting and I don't hear often a lot about that. Yeah, because the reality is building empathy for any number of people who work with you and against making decisions that are actually impactful to their lives or to their families lives. Man, that that is probably something I don't want to do.

Takes energy, yes. Yeah, a lot. Maybe does take strength, which perhaps I do not have at the moment, and that's why that seems like a mountain. So there are people who succeed in that. I have seen people succeed in it, but also just being reflective of who I am and where I'm at right now is I have done. I have been a leader before. Of course, every single time you get to learn, you get to improve, you become different.

But at the point I'm at right now, yeah, it does come with understanding that we need to build some systems that will protect us from as much as we can account for. Yeah, it doesn't take away the difficulty. In fact, it's easy. It's easier to accept that it's gonna be difficult, but I do not like it at all. Is, is that your ambition to grow into positions like that as well and to be able to have kind of the strength and resilience

that you think it needs to have? I would hope more for the strength and the resilience that than I would hope to be a leader, you know, in, in or in that capacity. I do not know what that means for me at the moment. Yeah, but eventually I will get to understand that. So I'm I'm not really putting a lot of pressure on myself on it. I can't execute on it. It's just not a preference, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense in kind of you touched on this earlier as well, but in kind of being on

this path of self improvement, acting from a place of vulnerability and empathy, you've seen people interact differently with you and just by sake of kind of making it more compartmentalized on a professional level let's say.

Did you feel like you got more stuff done, That people were like, that it made you more likable that people would in Dutchess, like Kuhn Factor would give it more to you toward depending on, not depending on versus another person, for example, just by virtue of who you are. People call it charisma as well. In good English, I would maybe relate a lot more of that to my home country. And I don't like it as well because and on the most fundamental level, we are all human beings.

Yeah, we all deserve nice things. So anytime I ever interface with the a situation like that, it's I'm, I'm going to share or exit the situation. It's also very difficult to talk to people who you can understand that these ideas will be very opposing to what they believe. Yeah, and I mean it's it's great to be an advocate for, you know, positivity or or a better future every time. But sometimes I feel like it can be counterproductive. And there are definitely better ways of doing that.

Because at the end of the day, if this was easy, if if it was easy enough to just tell someone 1 + 1 is equal to 2, and that makes completely complete sense and it changes everything about who they are and they become a different person, we would not be where we are today. So planting that seed in a different way hopefully sheds a difference. And that's more or less where I end up almost every time. And it's the most painful experience ever.

Also because you know, the Netherlands is a first world country, Kenya is a third world country. So there will be things that look great because they are here and when you go back home, looks like you are you, you know you're coming from some magical place. But at the end of the day, and we, we are all human beings and we all have the capacity to make decisions. We just don't know it or we are. We come from systems that teach

us differently. But I hope we can all just get to realize the choices that we have. And I think that makes all the difference, because if you knew you could make a choice to do something different and I think you probably would, yeah. Or if we at least had an idea and can't for any reason whatsoever, then we are on the same page. Yeah, absolutely.

It's interesting how conversations and perspectives kind of change you in a way or at least help you form your own. I think I might have kind of not appreciated that as much, but especially in in. Talking more to people and having those conversations, especially compared to my past and even my youth, I would just be by myself and I'll be content

with that. And now I want to talk to people and learn and and gain their perspective because I think it helps for my own and I feel like it makes me at the end of the day, a better person. I think it makes my belief system stronger, or at least it hones them just by virtue of challenging with other people. But sometimes it might also feel like I'm living in a bubble, and if someone comes in and just bursts that bubble, my world would be kind of flipped upside

down. And I have to reevaluate a lot, which might be kind of a fear that's in there as well. It's a scary one. Do you feel that as well? Yes, I do. And I do recognize some bubbles that I exist in. I think Sabia's organization is also a bubble. Yeah, in a way. Any, anywhere, anywhere, with a gathering of people with a common set of values and ideas and beliefs kind of just forms a

bubble. Because challenges will come, you will have to face them, and you'll have to find a way to either remain strong or change or adapt or move. It happens all the time, and from a very individualistic perspective, I do have my own bubbles. I succeed a lot more and communities that hold common values. Just making a reference again to the organization, it makes me feel safe. It makes me understand how to navigate, how I can navigate.

Well, that does set some borders, you know, You just like, yeah, you can be making some kind of fun in in that kind of space. It does give me the flexibility to be creative with what's on my plate and oh wait, I can build my own plate. We can build one together, you know, there's there's limitless possibilities when you're with like minded people. I do exist in my own space a

lot. At least. I used to be afraid of it for a very long time. So this is also the other thing I did work on in in therapy and now I really appreciate my own space and it's it's a point where I actually get to have these conversations. I do record voice memos as well as much as I write and then I get to listen to them. So one of the questions I was gonna ask you is, have you ever been a guest in your own

podcast? No, So depends because every 10 episodes now on 1/21, ten 101 just as a as an exception I ask. The audience that that's listening in, if they have any questions and then I I try and answer them from my perspective, from my kind of judgement or experience in that way. So that has been kind of the closest I've been in being a

guest on my own podcast. I've had people where they would flip the switch on me and ask a lot of questions and then it would feel like we're Co creating and I'm I'm the guest role as well. Because that to me looks like the moment where I'm sitting by myself in my house and asking myself those questions and then writing down those answers.

But then again, you know, the questions themselves that I asked myself today are definitely different because you again exist in the community and someone comes in with a book they just read that shows them how to answer, how to ask clean questions and how to build up a conversation, maintain a conversation. You can even speak to people you don't want to speak to and still learn something from them. And you know that's a seed being planted.

And then you factor in all that information just the same way. You get to talk to all these people, you get all those ideas and then you are the guest and you get to see all these things that you've learnt. And maybe you get to realize that you're actually living them and practicing them. Maybe you aren't shaking someone's hand when you walked into the building, but because someone told you something that made so much sense. You actually want to know how it

feels. Or it became subconscious and you're just doing it and you didn't realize it. Yeah, I sometimes when I look at myself in previous episodes or

the way I for example, I did AI, did a talk at a university and it was recorded and I looked at myself and I sometimes don't recognize. That that is who I am. And if that's how others perceive me, it makes it even harder. Because if that's not how I perceive myself, and they perceive me like that, then there's a mismatch. I think you touched upon this as

well. Yes, in the opposite way, though, because I don't perceive myself like that when I do something, when I stand on stage, when I when I talk to someone, I have a lot of anxiety. I get very nervous in trying to figure out what I'm going to say. I I do a lot with self humor, so whenever you see me crack up a joke, that's probably because I'm nervous. But apparently it lands well and it it shows a certain vulnerable side.

It shows a certain apathetic side sometimes, and that's then how others perceive it. But from my point of view, looking at it from my lens, I don't know if that is who I am, but maybe it is. Or maybe it is a version. It's just weird to see that from outside in sometimes. That is deep. Yeah, that is deep. And I don't know whether this is fortunate or unfortunate, but it does. I understand that.

And I I'm starting to think maybe if I can build a capacity of not cracking a joke or actually build the capacity to be to be mad at someone, you know, like show some emotion to someone, then that would really tell me how OK or safe I feel with someone. Because I, I do have an anxiety disorder and I do recognize what it takes to, you know, make the joke just to give you a chance to breathe. Yeah, while having that discussion. Or plan a whole meeting before you before the meeting happens.

Write all the notes down so that you are you feel prepared. I've done that, yeah. Before you get to, Yeah, yeah, that's. That's not the easiest thing, but we do what we must. Yeah, I I feel like we do what

we must. And because of that, and probably because you, you get good at that, others perceive it to be a level that you don't think you are at. Yes, to give you the simplest example, every time and this happens and I know it's gonna happen if I'm in a round table with new people. And you do your kind of your introductory rounds. I'm Patrick, I'm X years old. I live in blah, blah blah blah. Whenever I see that round slowly coming towards me, my heart starts beating and I know it.

I I check my heartbeat, I try and pace myself and when it happens, I do my story, I take a breath and then I'm done. And over and over and over it happens. And when I tell people like I, I get nervous. I don't enjoy it. I don't want to be there at that moment. I can do it. But it's just not enjoyable. People don't see that for a bit, yeah, because it will never seem that way. In fact, you're probably going to seem the coolest guy who can make the funniest jokes. But man, it was not a fun

experience. No, no, no, it was not. In fact, you just want to go home now. Yeah, it is draining sometimes as well. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, we we have some things in common. It's nice. It's nice to see that as well. And it's also, you know, I appreciate you opening up that way. And this, this is this is what makes everything worthwhile, Yeah. Thank you. Thank you as well man. Thank you as well. The only last remaining thought I had was if people are

listening in and and they want to do more with this or they want to act from a place of vulnerability, be more empathetic. I've always had a hard time trying to imagine what that is. But since you mentioned you're doing it with intent, are there any like? Tools or perspectives you can offer for people to start doing that or incorporating that or how do you do it? With intent, let's say I wish I had an answer for that, or I wish I had an easy way of approaching it.

But I think a lot of it comes from, in the most general times, doing the work that you are avoiding. But there's a lot of people who know why they are avoiding doing the work they're doing. There is no template way of getting to this point in your own perspective. But there are ideas that are also constantly being shared, like defining what a comfort zone means for you looks like to you. And that applies to all contexts. A small example is working out.

A lot of insecurity goes around to working out and a lot of people have a lot of reasons why they're not working out. And once you start to hear some people say, you know what, maybe start with the 5 minutes or start with you know that the whole idea of just sleep in your gym clothes, that maybe you wake up and you're already in there, that's not going to work for me.

That's not going to work for me. But what's going to work for me is I understand, maybe if I do a 5 minute workout today, that will definitely give me a win. Yes, small thing. And tomorrow maybe I'll do a 5 minute workout again. But what that does is it kicks in a momentum. And if I can apply that to any context, whether it's talking to people. And if you only need to, you only need to exist in that moment as much as your comfort

zone will allow you. So you're kind of just extending your comfort zone just a little bit every time and you will not realize it when you actually will have done so much. And it's a journey. So it doesn't have like an end, it doesn't have a pit stop. You know you you can keep going till as much time as you have. So it's it's very undefined in those terms. But redefining what your comfort zone is, I think is a good start.

Yeah, to make a small difference and a small difference is all you need to celebrate and recognize effort. I love that. Do the work that you're you're

not doing or you don't want to do because you probably know, and maybe this is an interesting one to end off on as well, There is something in US and you and me and in other people, a lot of other people that still do the work because you can also say I'm not going to do that. That's probably the easy way, yes. But something in you says I'm going to do that or I'm going to try and build momentum or I'm going to try the smallest step that I can do and kind of

stretch that comfort zone. Yeah, I can't put a finger on what that is because it's to me that is intrinsic how I explain it for myself, I have to do that. That's a have to. And for other people, like no, that's a choice. You don't have to do that. And like, but I have to do that if I want maybe those other

things. Like it's a prerequisite sometimes OK. To do the work that I don't want to do, to gain the benefits or reap the benefits of what I actually want, I think that's a very good one. That's a very good one. It might be that yes is that intrinsic motivation? Does that inner voice. And it really sucks to also ignore, you know, because it's never, it's never gonna leave. In fact, maybe.

You know, depending on whatever situation you've been through, maybe that voice changes its tone every time you don't do something. But I do recognize it. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that as well. Thank you as well, man. This was this was a lot of fun. I think this was different and very deep compared to previous conversations I've had. But I really want to thank you and commend you for who you are because I've talked to you like before the show.

This is not an act. If other people talk to you in real life, this is who you are. That's also how you got referred to me, probably because people said talk to Yosef. He's an interesting guy. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And also to the person who recommended me, I appreciate him as. Well, as it ends, yes. Cool. Then we're going to round it off here. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. If you're still listening, reach out to Yosef.

I'm going to put all his socials in the description below. Let him know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.