Learning, Open Source Communities and Systems with William Rizzo

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio and if you're interested in open source systems thinking distributive systems and much, much more this episode is for you. Joining me today is William Reid. So, what a fantastic guy is a lead, architect over at Sue's, and we had a blast of a conversation, I'll put all his socials in description below, check them out. And with that being said, enjoy the episode in struggling with that because I like audio books. I like listening to stuff.

Yep, that is my kind of Offered medium also to learn, I figured out but then it's really hard because because it is audio, I can do other stuff so I do them. And then sometimes I feel like the information doesn't process as much as if I would sit down and read have some trying to trying to figure out if I need to like take notes or something. Like, I need to feel like I need to up my note-taking game. Yeah, during listening to audiobooks because otherwise, you just vanishes.

Yeah, I had, I had, I tried I had the same problem when I tried, I kind of note taking In technique that didn't work that. Okay, well, I was when I when they were mentioning something or I would hear something that is worth to look into. Yeah, I would open a tab on my browser and I would just open a page and put it there and then continue the work that I've also done that. Yeah, it doesn't work. Right? Absolutely doesn't work. It's like you have like 1,900 tabs open.

Yeah, you know and you know you don't know what the music is coming from. No, you don't want to close the line that right and up, Justin. Mess yeah, yeah, absolutely. So now I do take my notes and sometimes also the old way, you know. Yeah. A pain. And it's just the yeah. And I networks but it absolutely. I also like, prefer to listen to things. Interesting. I do you listen to a lot of audiobooks and as well I do what I'm driving with the car may be

a long trip. Then I like to listen to an audiobook but they wouldn't be necessarily technical. Yeah. But if I'm I found myself, buying technical books, like physical books. Yeah. But listen, no podcast. And sometimes videos as well on YouTube but just let it run and I'm listening it in the in the headset and then maybe I pause what I'm doing and I go back to the video. If I listen to something that I if I hear something that it's

really worth checking out. But other than that, yeah, that's it. Imagine I've been listening to. It's called the engineering managers path is bike. Emile Fournier. And she's not, she's not reading the book, which also thought like maybe that's a bit odd.

I expected the authors also read the book or like do the voiceover for the audio book, but it's not her, but regardless, I feel like the essence of the contents really good, but then I'm just like, if I were to say what she said so far, and I've listened to a few hours, it be really small because I probably, I feel like I recollect small bit of it, so I'm struggling with that, but I'm trying to listen to more technically oriented books. It's just hard.

It is to figure out how to retain that info it is I, I think, I think so. I think I have the same problem to retain information when it's just when adjust here yet, but if I'm, if I'm reading it, somehow, I'm giving it a shape in my exactly. So, yeah, I can I can, you know, I can call that address in memory but I need it. It's a good one. I don't know if it has to do with Focus. I do like audios a medium also

because I can do other stuff. And you mentioned driving, I don't really drive, but I don't even know what I do. Sometimes I clean, I cleaner. I cook and I like to listen to stuff. But yeah, maybe it's because of that multi-processing that it doesn't retain as much as when I sit down you just because then I'm only doing that can't really do anything else. Yeah, I think well I think that we do work a lot with visualization when we are

learning something. Hmm the There is there is this Nobel Prize that mentioned that like the work with system one and system two we have our system one which is the system in our brain that we engage to do mundane things. That were, it doesn't, it doesn't require our attention. Yeah, whereas system, two is, the one that we really need to spend energies in and we can't engage in to type of system to activities. We can only do a system.

One system to work DVD and one system, one activity and the system, one activity can affect the system to or can end up not being done. Well, they example is like, you're driving and, you know, maybe you're driving in the city and you're having an argument with the person sitting beside you, you are very, very likely to have an accident because system to is engaged and the activity that you have going on is also a system to type activity.

He's getting a lot of energy, a lot of processing in your head. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that you wouldn't be able to learn anything if you're doing the learning part, or maybe audio. Yeah, and you are also cleaning up your also. I don't know, sorting out things on your computer because those are kind of two system to activities. Yeah, they interfere. Yeah, they do interfere. So, interesting.

I've never heard that theory about the system to in the system one, but I think I think the book is thinking fasting is low, okay? So that's on my list at the listen to as an audiobook that we have to have the book over there behind us. It's a Tyree recommended it. Yeah, it's a good book. I'll put that on my list. I'll take that next. It just thing.

But I do feel like it's recognizable but also like, when I'm picking up something new, I feel like that is system to like, I'm really engaged and I feel like time slows down, right, right. They, I like even both ways, sometimes it slows down and sometimes it even goes faster.

I don't quite recognize when what happens, but then, When I've done that over and over and over again, then I'm like, okay, now that I've done this, it's kind of more so autopilot, and then I feel like I can put an audio book on and like, dude stuff at the same time, but maybe it still system to that. That's my my Pitfall. Yeah, maybe, maybe I think that it you, well, I think there are activities that can go from one

system to another one when they become your your habit. Let's go to The Habit. They can go and of to the system one. Yeah. However you might have the impression like you're driving and you just all of a sudden you become, you become a good driver. You know, you're confident and comfortable. Just start picking up your

phone. Just sending out messages via phone while you're driving and it doesn't mean that you are good at driving so you can pick up the phone, it makes it just means that You are getting off the focus and now the focus is shifting on something else that I actually can become dangerous. Yeah. Interesting. And it also, I feel like it's no balls, right?

Because probably I don't drive. So I've never done this but I feel like some people would start out and they'll be like I'm just going to check what notification that was. Yeah. And then they do it again and then I'll just send a fast reply. Yeah. And the next thing. They like browsing ready and driving at the same time. Like it. Escalates. Right. Right in their mind. They probably don't see the gradually of how it escalates.

And you find yourself at a point where just looking at your phone already driving anymore, right? Right. Which is very dangerous. It is it is I and driving a motorbike you notice that a lot. Hmm. So sometimes I always look at the wheels of a car, not necessarily at the car. Hmm to see what is, what is happening with that car? And you see this, this car may be like, waving from left to right? Not a lot a little bit which is still for most people is still not. Problem.

Yeah, but for a biker not a biker is very vulnerable right to whatever happens in the road so I'm double careful. Yeah. And when I pass a car like that, I noticed that they are busy with their phone. Yeah. And that is what you don't notice. You use the attention that you put in the phone. And extends over in time it extends the more you the more you do it.

Yeah. And all of a sudden, I hope some people realize that they're having their eyes on the phone for something like 30 seconds, and they're not looking at the road anymore. And yeah, the second think there are a lot of things. Yeah. And on the road, that's a long time, right? Yeah. If you see them wobbly, I mean, especially on a motorbike, like, I can imagine, that's pretty scary. Yeah, yeah, it's scary because that that person can maybe get up.

Set or something, shift the attention and right things go wrong. Yeah I can imagine.

I mean, when you're, when you're picking up a new topic and I assume you do that very often because it's just a field, we were in. Sometimes we have to pick up a new topic. Do you really like, lay down everything and focus on the specific topic or what is your process sometimes I do? I like to to I have built up a process on my own kind of a routine.

Okay? It's like putting everything into little boxes but mental boxes, kind of I let's say I need to learn something work wise or I need to learn something and I just create my little space and I'll say okay from this time until this time I'm going to do that and I'm going to put away everything. Yeah. It doesn't always go the way you plan it, but it did that. That is that is the idea. I I listened at a Tech head

once. Yeah. And there was this man talking about how the sex, how successful inventors, put things into physical or mental boxes. Yeah, to pick up where they left and I tried it. It works. I should use more physical boxes than mental boxes, maybe but with digital work is difficult to to to do so. But I try to do that. Very interesting. Yeah, I had a friend of my own on. She had some agouti and she's a product manager and I was like, okay?

Like the idea of managing a backlog and like prioritizing figuring out what goes first and where the value is? It's like, how do you do that? It's just like I put everything in boxes. That's the first thing. She said, I put everything in mental boxing. Is with regards to the categories and then we align

okay. What goes first from which bucket do we do a full bucket at once or do we not do that but you categorize everything in buckets and when she lay it out I was like okay categorization that makes a little sense and I don't think I do that consciously but definitely subconsciously. I'm not cook at this cuz there that goes. There we do that. Yeah for it to make sense. Yeah we do that. We need to. We need to relate to previous knowledge to that that we have previous experiences.

We always do that. We constantly. Do it. We and when we stopped doing it, we evolved slower than to that learning that we want to do or into that. Task that we want to do. We move slower. But we if we can do it more consciously and that's the box right there. Categorisation. Yeah you. Yeah, you're winning. Yeah, I can imagine. But then the problem is, I feel like I've heard this before as

well. Of a friend. Diana Monteleone. And she says, people are really good at linear. Thinking like if it happens, then be like those subsequent order of events, we're really good at that. But then, when you're talking about a system, any system even a distributed system it's harder because if a happens and all of a sudden you get Z in your like how the hell did we go from A to Z like because B is supposed to

be next. Yeah, and then that's where the complexity kicks in our not really good at that yet, right, right. Hey there. Well, the complexity there are many definitions of the it's funny. I just had a talk. At a meetup group. And we I ask what is the definition of complex system? Hmm, and nobody there to answer. No, that's a hard one. Oh, it's beautiful. And there is no universally accepted definition of what a complex system is. Yeah.

Oh, it was a little bit of it. Also a cheeky question because, yeah, you know, you know that there isn't but they, that's the that that is the complex system there. If you think about, okay, represent in 2D. And is the simple in the simplest form. As you can. A complex system, first thing that 90% of people are going to do, they're going to do some sort of web of points that connect to many other points. Yes. And that is where what you just

said, right? I mean, you don't go from A to B, you might go from a to TZ a e, and B is the last item, but there isn't a last item because everything is connected. That is complexity, that is how we don't think. Yeah. But that is how we live, how we exist, our brain works like that, right? Exactly. So there's sometimes also, but we build right. Not consciously about like, that is the output sometimes of what we build, or like, a combination of efforts. Right?

Can create that right? Kubernetes? Yeah, yeah. Working, we working with that. We, we hate ourselves. Much to build a complex system to live in. So, is that what you think? Like, a lot of people like you were nice. Very powerful. I'm assuming, that's where the power also come from comes from. But also where the complexity comes from with people picking it up for the first time. For example, it is a stiff curve. And so your question is, I didn't fully get it.

No worries. Like the the point that it is more so complex, right? Right.

If it's a graph or not, do you think that's why it's so powerful as well? Because it is built a model like that. No, I don't think that the power cover of communities comes from his complexity, I think it comes from years of Understanding how things should be done from from a problem perspective, a challenge and a solution perspective. Like, those feedback loops, right? They come from more from robotics than, then, then software, engineering, I think,

engineering. But the, some some problems are solved in kubernetes with an approach, which is unique. Week and then they bring in other other concept and all these comes with together. They form these distributed in complex system and the power of grenade is. I think it because it's the is the sum of all these approaches and this method to solve problems in an intelligent way. The complexity, I think is a byproduct. Yeah. Right. So it's not necessarily the Design need.

Well, it's a design need, but the complexity is a byproduct of that need. Exactly. Yeah, I think that might be a fallacy that if you think that something is complex. Therefore, it is powerful. I feel like it's, it's more so that keeping things simple and simplistic. That's where the power lies, right. But you just add on top of that and then the byproduct that you mentioned could be complexity,

true, true. I think, I think, I think is a good way of seeing it. And a nevertheless is absolutely true that the learning curve in kubernetes is quite steep. Yeah, and there are things that run on top of kubernetes. Oh yeah, she get. Which ever even a steeper learning curve? So, absolutely. Yeah. How was that for you, then

picking it up for the first time because you're not a software engineer now? I background. No, absolutely not. No. Yeah, what'd you, what'd you do before? I work before working on kubernetes and what? I am now. I used to work at Hitachi antara. Yeah, and I was especially were specifically working on conversion a Converse systems, like with VMware and Microsoft hyper-v. Okay. And also, some sap Hana.

So, from there to kubernetes? Well, let's say that, I, if I am, I still feel, I am leaving the Imposter syndrome and everyone is feeling. Yeah, I love it. I love it. And I'm freaked out. Yeah, but it was steep. It was steeped. I got Interested in kubernetes. Of course, like everybody else is something absolutely cool. Any made a lot of sense?

Yeah, we need an orchestration for containers and what we had with mesosphere wasn't really doing it, but it was, it was a very hard-headed beginning was very hard. I was trying to understand what the heck am I doing and and was it You are aware you with the team knowing that up, picking it

up on my own time. Okay, I was just learning, it was just learning it and then and then I said, well, you know, this is what I want to do. So I applied for a few positions and then eventually I got at Sue's out which adjusts it just acquired Rancher. Yeah. And I I didn't know that they were acquiring Rancher but also I was my approaching kubernetes was through first vanilla, you know, the Duuuuude way, like everybody else.

Yeah. And and then I started looking into Rancher and a Rancher kubernetes engines, and I was like, okay, that's cool. That's cool. Let's keep going. And I got the job at Sousa and then I think after a week or maybe or maybe, no, no. Actually, while I was waiting for my first day, it was announced that Souza quiet around here. No, no, it's funny. Whoa yeah, exactly right spot. It's funny how those kind of combinations of events sometimes happen, right? Right.

You just sit in the middle and they're like, whoa. I'm just, just gonna let that happen, interesting? Yeah, but you didn't like, you didn't study any software

engineering related topics, not, not as as a major, not as a requirement. Well it was more of a need. I study Physics. Not completed. Well, without dating myself. When I say when I I study Physics in Italy, you needed. Five years to get any paper, yeah, Worth showing but nowadays is three years than you do for your Bachelor. Then, you know. Yeah, the shortened it, right? They showed me that my three years at which meant absolutely nothing.

No, I that's where I started my software engineering knee and well software, engineering my programming. I wouldn't call it software engineering. Yeah. Was with Fortran. Okay. So I then I did some see and moved on just when I left the university, just moved on for fun with some programming. Yeah, my Pearl. My Pascal and, you know, don't let me mention about. That's okay. Did your background? In physics. Do you think it's still helping

you because I always wonder. Yeah, right, absolutely. Like, in some weird way what we're doing now or the field that you're in Technology field. I think you can always leverage kind of their past experience. Yeah. Absolutely. It's if if I would if I would travel back in time yeah. And Choose something else. It will be exactly the same thing. That's also how its it is what I will. Maybe the only thing that I would do is complete, come on, that's not that bad. But no, I absolutely was.

It was the best, the best choice. And I don't think I also today is affecting some decisions that I take. Yeah, at least in my work.

Do you have an example of that? Like the knowledge of physics, I was helping you now as well. Yeah, yes I do when I can be varied to specific. Okay. But let's look at what like for me. In example the entropy and enthalpy like energy of a system. Yeah. You know the chaos were some people like to call chaos and it it's always applicable to a complex or a coordinated. Or a coordinated or semi coordinate system. Yeah. And the more I love the more

problems you see. The more unclean is an outcome. Yeah. Do you have an outcome, right? You have an outcome and it's what you wanted. The more it's actually a kind of a hard to explain how I see it. Don't worry. But the, the more um, Clean that outcome is even though it is what you want the most likely that system that generated the outcome is not, all right, it's not, it's not, it's not going to be a stable system in the future. All a stable solution for the

future. So we should go back and redraw and look further at what are the Improvement that can be made. Yeah, so that is a little bit, my view my not my view, but My my remembrance of my physics studies, right? We just think when you look for a button energetic, balance of an ecosystem over system. Yeah, I can imagine that.

That's helpful now because right sometimes the internals of a system or what is actually happening happening can be right due to time due to many hands having touched different things, in different components, maybe some standardization hadn't happened or some conventions weren't in place. Yeah, or things just shifted and through learning you've improved, right? It can be really hard figuring out what the internals is. Yeah. So then you're like, okay, this is the input and this is the

output, right? You kind of treat as a black box. Yeah and then if you figure out that your output is not necessarily what you wanted or it's like deviating slightly, then something internally still incorrect, right? Right incorrect. Yeah. And you do see a shift in energy as well? Yeah. You know increase in energy this somehow the system is trying to balance itself. Yeah. Kind of very Spiritual way of saying it but the system is trying to balance itself. So you see an increase in

energy. You see if you're looking at logs you see way more luck than you should be, seeing a lot of stuff going on. The system is in balanced. So therefore there is some work that needs to be done. Yeah, very interesting. Where did kind of this?

This love this passion for systems and even distributed systems. Where did that originate from at University? Yeah. Yeah, it's well they we were working on a system or not. Well, a very early system for HPC. I Perkins Computing. It was a cluster 486 DX system. Yeah. This is says nothing to me. Sorry about that. That's age. So they're worse. Depending, you know, the Pentium? Yeah, yeah. That's that's after. Okay. Gotcha. So well. Anyway, this this white box computer, right?

I mean, this 486 is just x86 system, okay? And that 486, that's why, that's where x86 K take the names from, okay. Just to let you know, maybe you look it up, but that's we were putting them together to get. So we were using a Beowulf type of architecture. Yeah, to build a high-performance cluster so, Basically, message passing interface processes, you know, being shared across multiple CPUs.

And I found it very intriguing and interesting, and I kept working on it with the others and I did develop some kernel patches for for extending the memory use across gpus. Yeah. So stacking, the memory, literally the that was the The starting point of distributed system. Then I left University. I did a few other things in the meanwhile not very meaningful. They're all meaningful. Yeah, someone you're right,

you're right there. And then I knew I was in trouble and I was interested in the open mosaics project. Okay, it was by Marcia bar. Yeah, he created this kernel patch for learning Linux for a System image cluster. So I worked on the Bill Wolfe clusters and that one was an SSI. So the to explain as easy as they can. They are application would see the system as a multi CPU like landscape landscape operating

system, right? So, the, if the, if you had threads, they would have migrated to other CPUs. However, if you had processes, they would and Then a group, I was working on the on, okay? Like that. Now that I got something to do, I can do just for fun. Yeah, well for fun for fun and to try out I can create the memory stack sharing for the for SSI and there was a group of ladies from India. Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant.

Group of girls, they created this patch for the memory sharing and it was absolutely the next level I couldn't do that and Yeah, then Marshall bar in moved to sin. I think afterwards and the project get stopped. No, I think, there were no maintainers, yeah. Left for it and I didn't have I didn't have it to tell you myself. So I said, well I was a spectator of just gonna, you know. Yeah, just I'm not going interested anymore.

I always interested but I'm not interested in maintaining so I'm not proposing myself for it, but yeah, that's a humongous. A long fast nowadays. I feel it is yeah.

I respect for any mantegna's out there. Yeah yeah. Sure. Like it's it's so interesting to me that open source is a lot of software. Fundamentally is built upon right right. But that also has a maintenance component to it can be a team can also sometimes be one person

just ridiculous right? Sometimes this thing that you build can have an Outreach that you wouldn't imagine and then you have tens of thousands of people thousands maybe 100,000 people telling you what they Think of this thing that you built, right? No, no, you should go right or left or straight and it's all it's all different. Anyways, result, trade-offs, that's what software is.

It is it is and and I find very concerning that there are so many trainers that are doing as you say, humongous job beside their daily job. Yeah. And there is no actual support, meaning, you know, funding or some, you know, some, I don't know.

No. On GitHub some donations that you can do, there are many that receive any donation and they struggled to keep the lights on on their project and at home because yeah, many have a second Evan actually daily daily job but yeah many others that is their source of income which is their productivity and their open source efforts. Yeah. Yeah. For those people that have two jobs like the open sources. I see that as a joke, As well, and like I said, a day for

income, right? They probably have built this thing and there's a, such a huge sunken cost in general that they don't want to let go, right? Even if they wish they would like, oh, they can't do that to themselves or to a community because now, you kind of responsible to the people that are using it as well which is very very weird dichotomy that. I don't think you have in any other field where something is open. People can use it then you are

responsible. If you let go of that you either disappoint people or things just break. Yeah. It's also an option. Yeah, I think. It is, I think is a construct only of Open Source. Yeah, it's which is, which is hard, Alex, L is as well. A red few few notes of him, few points where he says, how hard it is to come to work on these things without without support. We should always think there's like, we get, I think we can spec. We can spare that pizza margherita pizza money for, you

know, for a good project. Exactly. It's not going to change our life. We do. When we don't but you can't change the life of somebody else exactly that. That is the power of kind of collectiveness in that exact, right? Yeah. If that collectiveness then supports one entity then also on, that's a huge difference. Yes. Absolutely. And I don't see right now, I don't see that changing. It's the power of Open Source. Everyone can use it. You can build something out of some people. Love it.

They use it needs to be somewhat established, but still take some time. It does it has. But you also have to, you have to look at where we're coming from. In open stores, where we were 30 years ago where we were 20 years ago, but we are ten years ago where we are now, right? I mean, before he was absolutely that gig in that, in that dark corner building, something pushing it on internet somewhere. Yeah. With a modem and and you hope you get some interest and that's it.

Yeah, but you don't hope. Get money.

You're hoping to get interest. Yeah. And then now there are people building something which is massive. They put it out there looking for interest and hoping also to build a business around it. Yeah. So you think about the the product and you've been, did you think about the business model around it? Whereas before you think about that cool thing and solutions like you know, let me see if somebody else wants to once. To play with it as well.

So that's that's how it was. Yeah that that business model open cores. What I've been told that to me is fascinating, right? And I can come from both ways that you already have kind of an open source tool and you make it easier for people to use it, make it easier to integrate an organization, you take away some of the operational maintenance, part of it, you can run it basically for someone else to

use it, right. I think that's very interesting or the other way around where you internal, you build a product and then you open source. Out of that product that you've already built, right? They I also find it fascinating. I also find it quite dangerous. Hmm. The you know those pay walls yet sometimes company build and it's it's kind of using the open-source Community sometimes and it which is not bad but you my abuse of the concept. So like yeah, I am releasing these. Of code.

I'm releasing this product, but to take it to, the Enterprise level, to take it to actually use it in your company, securely and safely. You got a need to pay and for some startups know, that's, that's a no-go. Yeah. It's like it's what they can do. So, I duel instead like the SAS model where you really see the

whole thing. Yeah, you know, use it on Prem on cloud, however, you want it. But if you want, if you are a start-up, you can also think about using SAS version and, you know, you build your, you build your, you build your product around hours. Yeah. Fine. And then you can also use the SAS version because you can't, you don't have money to build rack and rack of servers and yeah, you know so I prefer that model instead of the pay wall of the Enterprise features.

Yeah to me I don't see the pay wall initiative having much longevity anymore. Like that feels kind of dated. It right? Because if I like engineering has a lot of decision-making power more so nowadays than how it used to be right. Yeah. In a team you can already decide kind of especially if you're in a start-up. What you're going to do?

What tools you're going to leverage and exactly, as you mentioned, if our focus is this product, then I don't want to maintain some server with some piece of software just because it's free, right? If you can afford it, you get it as a sauce variant. Yeah. And then you use it and you still focus on what you need to focus on exactly. I think because the pay wall like These are hurdle for people to adopt, or to even figure things out. I feel like that doesn't have

longevity. It doesn't, it doesn't a great

example is backstage, right? I mean, next stage is a fantastic product is needed. We need to enable developers to, to get detached from the platform that they are rather. They are deploying to. Yeah, and backstage makes a lot of sense and things like backstage. Make a lot of sense, but when you start, it's donated, I I hate the word donated but it's handed over to the CN CF.

Yeah, but if you really want to use it in an organization, you're going to need our buck and our buck you, you you've got to pay, you gotta pay for to have it and you're going to pay for that plug-in and I find it I find it a model which does not have. That's not it. Take into account this those little companies that are trying to make it, Yeah, that's hard. Which are a lot. And that's a lot of business, to be honest. Yeah, so that's hard. I think it has a lot to do with

trust as well. Like there's this thing called trust equation and I don't recall it correctly to kind of Define what it means. Now maybe from some people look it up but in any case like the way you act or your honesty and your integrity that all shines through right signs through and what you do as a person shines through in what you stand for as a company as well. I believe it and things like that, will diminish from that. Trust equation.

And some people will still accept that that level of trust that they have and some people want and they won't use those Services anymore. Yep. Now, absolutely. I think that holds true for people as well as organizations, which is interesting because then the organization is kind of an artifact of how you operate as a person as well. Yes. Or like as a collective. Yes, whatever. Whenever you build its, whatever you are, right? That that is That is sometimes true.

We're not going to mention companies, of course. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But when you when you kind of

came into this field, would you imagine being so involved in either communities or with people in so far? Or did you have kind of a different perspective? Because I always think for me, I thought, okay I'm gonna be software engineer or I'm going to work with software, it's

going to be more. So isolated, I'm going to create this piece of artifact, kind of reflecting sometimes how I think and stuff and that's then going to combine into this puzzle piece that is going to be Picture of reality or the picture of the thing we're building. And I'm going to do that with other people. But I'm still going to be responsible for like my little puzzle pieces, which holds true in some aspects, but completely not in other aspects either through.

No, I did. Imagine I, when I, when I started with it, of course, like everybody else. I think it's your thing. Yes, it's your time you're interested. You go through with your what, you're learning, what you're doing. When I moved into when I started getting more and more interested into open source, which of course that they will Linux. I'm not going to tell you the kernel version because otherwise, you, I'm reading the it was you're in your room,

right? Yeah. It like you like, okay, this is, this is cool. This is how it works and you go with Linux from scratch and you start compiling your own kernel. And all of a sudden you feel you feel Untouchable. Yeah but you use you you get out and nobody absolutely care any but you're not either. Yeah, but you are absolutely off. You know the clouds you get that to today is exactly the opposite

is everybody's interested. In what you're doing, everybody know as a sort of not knowledge but awareness of these open source movement of This community of this being part of something. There are so many conferences, like, take Cube Khan, take Q, Khan take so many devops days. So many conferences going on and you see like-minded people that are not those Geeks sitting in a room in the dark room and doing their own thing that nobody understands.

But it's more of a very open. Very social animals. Yeah. Sudden we are all realize that we are not that A social person but we are very social. We want to show we want to tell we want to hear and I find it. Fantastic. It's I'm busy with the community. I'm trying to build something. I'm trying to be part of it and I couldn't imagine not being anymore. So it's it is, it is amazing. Yeah, I'm really happy that there are those spaces where

people with that are like-minded and have a shared passion, Can come together, right? Right. Is that, that is usually the only part of the equation you need for knowledge, sharing to happen. People that come to those events. Have a genuine sense of curiosity. So you're really interesting discussions and that's the real Community aspect of things. It is, it is so different from how it used to be. It is before they get together plays was an IRC Channel. Yeah.

So you know and it had you begin building, your own image of how somebody is and Not necessarily of a person image you know you give a shit a mental shape to that to that nom de plume or acronym or whatever. You want to call it. Yeah nickname. Yeah. But it's but it's it and you build a friendship and you build yet. Yeah. You build this this way of Munich ating with that person. And that is this. You do exactly the same things

in real life, right? Yeah. But nowadays, you do it really real life. Now, you have a place to meet. Yeah, we have Dev rails, the meat constantly somewhere in the world, a conferences and they get in touch. As like, are you going to that conference? I'm going to that one. I'm going to that one. And it's, it's beautiful. Its it wasn't like that. It wasn't like that.

No, and I think it's I love it. The only thing is Really bad at kind of that art of upholding connections and like maintaining a network. Like I talk to a lot of people just by virtue of doing the podcast. I got you on because part 4 L said Williams awesome. Dr. William by is awesome. Yeah, but but reached out to me and I feel like I'm really bad at kind of maintaining connections were Network, are you like that as well? Or do you kind of have your stride in that?

I, I am not good at it and I don't know if I'm bad but I'm not. Good at it. I see some people like Bart, an example like Alessandro, whatsa or Andrea Jordi. Need people that I, that I am lately constantly texting with and organizing something, and I see that they have a method in it. They have their own way of doing and they're good at it. You can tell they're good. Yeah, me, I'm not bad, I'm not an obstacle to that, which is a good thing. So good. I-i'm not as invested as they

are. Yeah, I could be more. But my job is is also I'm making an excuse now. And my job is also preventing me from being more invested than I am. Yeah. So, I'm not not a devrel which I need to keep those Communications going. I'm not a content creator. I'm so, I'm a consultant. Yeah, so I need to make those As billable hours, I can vary the same excuse. This. That's very funny. Good. It's like I want to but maybe maybe there's like the scent of is not there.

I don't know why. It's just, yeah, it's time and effort. Yeah, it is time and effort, and

he's also what you like, right? I mean, I do love the social part. I love it, me too. And I couldn't be without it, but sometimes I love more. The technical part pulls you back. Yeah, I push me back. His this is who you are just do your thing. That's also fine. Yeah, so it's get back to that, get back to the keyboard and, and, and it's fine. It's why I, it is why I am in the in this community in this indeed today. Now it is because I love the technical part.

Yeah, it is because I want to get out and say, hey, check out what I just did, or check out what I just learned or check out what that guy does. And Yeah, that maybe that's why I'm not good at giving context because I still want to keep my, you know, maybe that guy that in the, in the darkroom coding or you're compiling side, you still there. That's okay. You still cleaning space. I like that a lot, because it's a spectrum, right?

And you kind of fit somewhere on that spectrum and I don't think there's a right or wrong. There's no golden ticket. There's no out. This is what you're supposed to be. You're just there and you're like, ah, my little bit. I left them a little bit more, right doesn't really matter now he does. Right. Absolutely. And you find your stride and whatever you do and you enjoy the sides as well which is completely fine. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Really cool. Absolutely agreeing with this

cool man. I've really enjoyed this talk so

far likewise it was a lot of fun having you on. Is there still anything you want to share with regards to our audience? Just well, no, I like, I like our audience. I don't know, I don't know. I Love to say, just who kept with me, just just try to find me. Let's have a chat or whatever but that's that's not what I'm going to say though. I just said it, I'll say that for you, don't worry about that. I think I should prepare people more because I always throw this

curveball at the end. Yeah, sometimes I don't prepare people for nothing, you know, just cut this piece and just tell, there's no there's no cutting. No, this is gonna make it Just ask them that the end the question you know, to come up with. That's also good. Some people take and roll with it and some people are like, no I really liked it. Yeah, let's see it. Lets see it, it's fine. It's tough, but I'm going to round it off here everyone.

Thank you so much for listening. Check out William. It eats ice that makes these. So everybody, so I'm gonna put all his socials in the description below. Check them out. Let them know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening again. We'll see you in the next one.