Job Seeking in Tech: Strategies to Open Career Doors with Keki Mwaba

Hi everyone, my name is Patrick Kyo and no matter if you're looking for a job right now or anytime in the future, we have some hidden gems, some insider info and value for you to take with you on that journey. Joining me today is Keki Muaba from South Africa, based in the Netherlands and recruiter turned career coach. Honestly, this conversation was eye opening and I'll definitely give it every listen when I'm looking for a job. Enjoy.

Have you seen kind of from the perspective of a career coach, the market nowadays being different than how it was let's say a few years back? Because I really believe that a few years back I saw posts online of people switching jobs and within a few, I mean even days where they would just get spammed with opportunities. And nowadays, especially for people early in career, I feel like it's harder out there. Have you noticed something similar?

Yeah, I think the market changes a lot to be honest. You know it goes through UPS, downs, waves also really depends on the the industry that you're in. But let's say if we were just to look at maybe the last year or two, I think what we saw before that was especially tech hired a lot and even in recruitment we'd have these ambitious goals. We need to double the size of the team. We need to scale the product and hyper growth was like the main

word. I'm sure you heard companies being super proud that we're in like hyper growth mode. Yeah. And I even though I was part of those teams hiring, I think I was always a bit suspicious if hyper growth is a good thing compared to sustainable growth which is focusing on OK long term how is this going to serve our company, our product, our services that we that we are offering. So with that I think there was quite a bit of hiring and then that sort of started to slow

down a little bit. So maybe instead of hiring 50 people yesterday, they're like OK, cool, maybe let's focus on just hiring several people this month or let's look quite critically around our headcount and budgeting and all of that. So because that seemed to slow down and companies were a lot more intentional, it gave the illusion that maybe hiring is slowing, but that's not not necessarily the case.

But I will say that with, you know, the last years too, maybe they have been a lot of layoffs, layoffs particularly within like bigger tech companies. I think that's quite a well known fact. But it comes in waves, right? Usually the companies lay people off, the stock price goes up, they start hiring again. So it's very much up and down.

And I think as much as I loved recruitment that was sort of both a pro and a con that it can be super ambitious goals then like stop and then OK, slowly hiring, then stop or something. So that may be some of the shifts that maybe you're observing in the market, but I'm curious even for you as a as a software engineer, I'm sure you know you got a lot of LinkedIn DMS from recruiters over the years.

Would you say like you feel like that slowed down or do you still feel like there are as many roles as they were maybe like 3-4 years ago for example? When it comes to my own, the messages I get like on a one to one basis, I feel like it definitely slowed down. And I don't know. I mean, I didn't really update my LinkedIn profile that much, but let's say it's been stable for the last few years, then the only thing that changed would be the market.

So that kind of goes into maybe my bias of it's definitely slowed down. That's the feeling I have before. I did get messages and like those people that say I have every week a few messages. Now it would not be that much, but I did get messages. And the ones that really stuck with me would be the ones that are really personal, to the point where someone would actually just record a video of themselves talking about stuff that he saw my profile and being like, oh, we can chat if you

want. And at the time, I wasn't really interested at all. And I'm still not really interested. But yeah, it is kind of a notion that I saw. My brother just came out of

university like a few months back, did a bachelor in econometrics, and they always say at the University of Amsterdam is one of the hardest bachelors to complete. And for some reason they tacked on data science at his final year. So he graduated and got an extra econometrics and data science bachelors. And he was looking around and he says definitely for like junior roles, it's really hard to get the foot in the door and to actually start having a conversation.

And most of the times, what really brought him down, because this has been a journey, was that he didn't really get feedback either on his resume or the interview process at all. Or he would not really get a good feeling of the people that he would talk to the representatives of the company, so that he wouldn't really be motivated to continue with an interview process at all. And I feel like I never experienced something like that, especially in my kind of early

career a few years back. Yeah, yeah. Now I get that. And I think that with your brother's experience that's shared across many people. And I mean that's a really good degree. Econometrics and data science from a pretty reputable school. I think that, you know, I also studied here in the Netherlands. I did my master's and I was very fortunate to receive a

scholarship to study here. And I think for me, even graduating, I really struggled on the job market as well, even though this was, you know, quite a few years ago. I think that I also lacked confidence because I felt OK, I I don't speak Dutch, I need visa sponsorship, I don't have that much work experience. Who's going to hire me?

So I think I took like a very proactive search when it came to looking for a job because I realized that maybe it might be a little bit harder than for me than people who you know, speak the language, maybe from Europe and have a network already. So I had to go above and beyond in terms of like messaging people on LinkedIn really slash stalking people at times respectfully stalking though Yeah, I'm kidding. But you know really researching companies.

So I think that's a lot of the time how I got my my foot in the door. But I think that companies these days sometimes want to finish product in terms of someone who already has, you know, quite a few work experience or one to two years experience for a junior role. And a junior role to me should mean zero work experience because you know you need to get work experience sometimes, or

even for internships. Even internships might require that you've got at least a year of internship experience. So I think a junior role does require resources from a company's perspective in terms of time. It needs to be someone to mentor this person to teach this person, to really invest in them. There needs to be a lot more structure.

As you know, this person may not have ever worked before, so they need to be taught how to work and some companies aren't at a stage where they maybe want to invest that time or see the the benefit of that. So I think that's maybe why they're less junior roles available now. So I always encourage people, even when they're in university, you're ready to start building their network, even just with your friends. Like for example your brother, I'm sure he knew great people in his class.

Maybe those people knew people or something. So I think the point of looking for a job actually starts probably before you graduate and even more so it's important now given the the job market. Yeah, yeah, I fully agree with

that. I I saw on LinkedIn you've worked at companies that are quite reputable flow traders. Reddit, Disney, Uber, even. I mean it. I I know Alex from the podcast and you know Alex as well, and he recommended Gerge. And Gerge also used to work at Uber. So there's this quite an interesting network. I feel like that that happens at the more high profile companies. How'd you get your foot in the

door? Let's say at the first one you said you came out of uni, Did not have a European passport, did not speak Dutch. In any case, how'd you get your foot in the door? Yeah. So my first job actually in Amsterdam was at Dawa Airport. Yeah, the coffee company, which I'm sure you've had their coffee. Yeah, I worked with them also. I did, yeah. Yeah. Oh, very cool. Nice. So yeah, So I was actually drinking one of their their coffees and I was curious. I was like, I wonder if they're

hiring, right? So I went on their career page and I was looking for like a junior HR recruitment role. I saw absolutely no roles. So because I was very confident or desperate, to me, I think it's the same thing. Different the same, yeah. Yeah, desperate. I I thought, hey, let me just call the reception at DAWA Experts and just ask to speak to someone in HR.

No way. So I called them and I said, hi, my name's Kiki. I'd like to speak to someone in HR and they put me through and I was like, no, that's usually when they hang up. I'd done this many times before. I'd never gotten this far. So I spoke to a lovely lady called Anika Kietz who was my manager, Derek Butz. And she's she's an amazing recruiter. And I asked her, I was like, are you hiring junior HR or recruitment roles by any chance? And she was like, we don't have

anything open at the moment. But actually, you know, we have a lot of work and I might need an assistant at some point. So why don't you just send me ACV? And I was like, oh OK cool. So she's I sent her my CV and she said, OK, I'll keep this in mind. I'll let you know if anything comes up. And I was like, oh, I've heard that before, we'll get back to

you. And I'm like, but I followed up and I kept following up like just checking if anything comes up. And she said, yeah, we've now got approved headcount to hire a junior person. And why didn't you come in for an interview? So I came in for an interview and got the job, and that was my first job in Amsterdam actually. No way. Yeah, I'd love that story. That's amazing.

You went kind of above and beyond and just shot your shot, right? If no one would have done that, you wouldn't have landed your job and you did something probably no one else would essentially call the company. It's really cool. I've never heard that before. No, it's amazing. Yeah, I think a lot of people sometimes rely also on open vacancies on career pages when a lot of roles aren't actually advertised. So let's say I've got a scenario for you.

Now, Patrick, imagine you're a recruiter, right? Which would you rather do? Post a role online and it gets 400 applicants? Or don't post a role but reach out in the back inside to 20 people on LinkedIn who are probably the exact people that you're looking for and it will be you know, that take less time now which would you rather pick? Yeah. Yes, the less. Time. Yeah, right. And I think that's the thing. There's so many roles that

aren't advertised. So what I do, especially when coaching people using my recruitment background, is still have chats, still call, people, still reach out because don't let what you see maybe put you off or think, oh if this is your dream company or a place you're really interested in working, still have conversations with people even if they're no advertiser. Also there do. Do things like open vacancies, if they have that, let's say, on a job or so, does that work as well?

Because I see that. I see then lots of positions that I don't really find myself in. And then there's this one open one that's like, send us through your resume and we'll see if there's a fit. Do people actually look at that? Yeah, those roles get a lot of applications. You. Can imagine, yeah. But I think sometimes it can yield mixed results. So I think it's a very good advertising tool from a company's perspective, right. When you post open role, people will be like, oh, what is this

company? What is this doing. So there's a little bit of a motivation from a company perspective to get sort of their name out there and at least have people start to look into what they do and get engaged. Secondly, if a company is posting an open role like that, I think it's first of all good to know how what the process is.

So some open roles will be like I will have someone get back to you within the next week or two to let you know if there's no vacancy or you'll be stored in our database for upcoming

hiring. But maybe, if there's no indication of what the next steps can look like on the open role, I wouldn't spend too much time crafting an application for it. But I definitely don't think that, you know, you shouldn't apply or something, but those tend to yield lower response rates than maybe specific job openings. Yeah, and you mentioned actually

crafting an application. Is that also then the process? Because I haven't applied in a while. I used to apply in the last time I applied where like a few years ago. But I would probably have like a kind of a template and I would change a few things, but I wouldn't actually craft a thing. I wouldn't use that terminology. Is nowadays applying. Is that like a craft, you'd say? Yeah, I think you got to stand out. You know, it also depends on your job.

Like let's say you are a back end software engineer applying for a back end software engineer. You don't have to craft it too much, right? Yeah, it's clear it's a good one. We're looking for someone who knows Python.

So, but if maybe you want to get a little bit out of your field or to an industry you haven't worked with or showcase one part of your experience, I think creating a tailored CV or resume, interchangeable words, it's quite a good idea so that it can show your experience more. So for example, I have one candidate who is a operations manager and operations means a lot, right, in terms of what you can do. It's one of those things like analyst or consultant, it's. Like anything?

Anything, right. So this client basically had done so many things, but they wanted to get into data analytics, right? So I said, OK, great, Why don't you create a tailored resume that shows more about the analytics part, about your job. So maybe what you did in terms of process optimization won't be as important as showing that. I know how to do Python And R or SQL when looking at data sets,

talk more about those projects. So I think for people who are especially generalists, who have done pretty wide roles tailoring it, it's always super important to to the job to just highlight your skill set. Very interesting because that's that's basically me. I always said on this podcast and even off that I'm now software engineer and actually since recently I got a new because we're at a consultancy, a new assignment as a product manager.

So that's one of the tracks is more for the thank you, it's most of the product side. Then I do a lot with this podcast and I've seen this kind of newish title, Developer Advocate, Developer Relations, which is like a second track. And then I'm also a team lead, So I have a group of consultants which I I work with when it comes to personal development and happiness. And that really fulfils me and that's more the kind of engineering management track.

And I still don't know which one of these I want to progress in. But if I'm hearing what you're saying is that if I were to apply, I would kind of have to tailor, make my resume based on the experience that I've had to show that I can handle that new role and that will be 3 resumes essentially. I do not look forward to that. I would have to make a decision.

Or you can sort of make a a master resume, so to speak, if it's a job that you're applying for. Let's say we're looking for an engineering manager role who has experience on the product side who thinks beyond just being technically hands on. Then you can highlight all three to show like look. And I think it's good because sometimes we also think we need to box ourselves in to be this

one thing, right? While you can still tailor your resume while highlighting aspects that form who you are. You know you don't want to talk, not talk about the podcast, 'cause it's something you enjoy as well.

So I think it's cool if you are able to sort of weave that in, but maybe that wouldn't be the thing you put at the top of your CV. Maybe you're like, OK, I want to show that I know how to road map and vision, 'cause I want to be in more product focused, but I also still want to have this part of my personality come through as well.

Very interesting, yeah. I've had this conversation many times with my partner as well, and she says that the format of the resume actually makes a big difference. Whereas I showed her like my initial ones which I applied on, had my picture on it, and she just laughed at me. She's like pictures not supposed to be on there and I'm like, I don't know if I know what's supposed to be on there and what's what's not supposed to be on there. Does the format really matter that much?

Your experience. Is your partner a creative any time? No, no, no, she no. She works at Palo Alto Networks now as a project manager and it took her a long time to get that role and now she's applying and she got a new role and then she used that as a counter offer at the current job. So she's doing really well. Smart I must say. He chose well, yeah, right. Yeah. But when it comes to the CV, then do you think actually the format matters?

I think format matters and format often differs from like place to place, right. So in somewhere like the Netherlands and quite a few of the Western European countries, you can get away with a picture on a on a CV. In fact it's it's quite common actually. And oftentimes sometimes a CV that doesn't have a picture on people, cross reference it with your LinkedIn to see what you look like anyway. Yeah, right. So I think that that can be quite common.

But in North America, like US, Canada, having a picture is a no no. It is a huge no. And there are many studies that sort of like tie into the reasons why which I'm very fascinated by that How can structure differ from region to region, especially if a job is more that's going to be the the same just in a different country

or location. And there are many reasons that tie into that for historical reasons maybe fear of discrimination, other sort of things when it comes to how open people feel with putting their information on there. But yeah, I generally recommend, you know, having a more sort of clean, neater structure for most roles. But it depends. For example, one of my clients is a graphic designer and really wanted to make a very designed CV to show with colors and everything.

And that worked compared to, you know, if you're applying for an accountant or a dentist role where it's like, OK, Gray, black and white, let's keep it sort of. Simple, yeah? Don't need to show off your design skills as a as a dentist necessarily. So it it does differ role to role I think.

And then for let's say international companies like Disney and Uber, does it then also depend region by region what is most likely to get through I would say, or most likely to get read or even be put on a on a manager's table, let's say. Because those companies are international, they hire in different regions and as you said, they have the same job but just available in different regions. Does the recruitment process is

that standardized? Yeah, I think the well, I think recruitment is sometimes very subjective because a lot of people think, you know the machines have completely taken over and humans don't read CVS. But unfortunately it still is quite a a flawed process in the sense that is very likely going to be a person on the other end reading your your CV.

So in that sense, I think whatever role you're applying to and whatever country they are still core things you definitely want to include on your CV basics like name, contact details. But you know, sometimes people include stuff that doesn't need to be on there, like their marital status, their religion, their full postal address or something. I'm like a little bit of a data sensitivity issue. I could easily hack you.

So, you know, I think by having that basic information and then clear bullet points of your work experience, what you've done with results and keeping it as as possible, I think no matter how long you've worked one or two pages Max, even if you have 30 years of experience, yeah, you know, shortening your experience in some cases like, OK, maybe what I did in 2002 is less relevant than what I did in 2022, so making that section

shorter. So I think by being really intentional about sort of how you structure it, that's going to be great. But a lot of the time people just don't know this. And that's why I have a job as a career absolutely to, to guide people in, in making a really good structured CV. And I think a good structure, if you can read it in 10 seconds, you know you've done a good job, right? Because have you ever hired

before like red CVS? I have. Yeah, it's been a really long time though, but I have. And I I would just think it's interesting because I would get these different formats and maybe I'm speaking like I have done this many times. I didn't do it many times actually. It was like very early in on in my career even. And I like being part of the interviews. But from a resume, I would just be like, yeah, I don't know, I don't have a frame of reference

to see if this is good or not. And it would be a gap and that would, I would love to talk about, OK, why is there a gap there? And people will talk about their travels and more so personal things. I was always looking for that rather than let's say technical expertise and more so looking. Can I work with this person in my team? Do I like them also even are they like me or are they different than me? And that evolved cuz it used to be are they like me and how?

It's also OK how do they fill in the gaps, the things that I'm not good at. So yeah, those are the things I look for. And I'm sure when you started reviewing CVS, maybe you spend quite a bit of time looking at each one like 5 minutes trying to look at it, understand it. And then I'm sure you're like, OK, I've got 100 more to go, maybe that time got shorter and shorter or something like that.

So especially as recruiters who, you know, this is what we do all day, 10 seconds, that initial glance. And from there we can make a decision whether we want to move you to the next round or not. And I like that you also brought up gaps because this is a question I get quite often, because gaps can happen for so, so many reasons, right? And to me, gaps aren't really too much of a big deal and I think a lot of people don't care too much about them.

But in an interview, it's about how you sort of tell the story, right? So what? What's quite common is you find people who maybe move to the Netherlands from other countries after graduating. It took maybe a couple months to even a year, if not sometimes longer to to find a new role, right? So I think even as the person reading the resume, it's always good to have compassion and curiosity when it comes to maybe

gaps being in people's CVS. So that's something I would would ask about in terms of being like, oh, cool, I see that, you know, you took a few years off. I'm wondering what you're doing in that time. And I really love it when people show like, oh, I was upskilling myself. I wanted to travel. I had a family, I had this. And but you know, but I'm ready to come back and I'm excited about what your company is

doing. So when they reframe it with a lot of confidence as opposed to, yeah, you know, I don't know. I. Don't. Know my luck, etcetera. So I think that storytelling aspect is really important in interviews to really sound positive and you're in control of that. You know, I think people sometimes fear being asked questions like what if someone brings up the gap, What do I say? But I remind my clients that you know, you're in control of this. You're also deciding if this

company is right for you. So would you want to work at a place where someone you know takes it quite adversely that you took a couple months off to travel or figure out yourself or take care of your mental health? Maybe that's not the right environment for you as well. So it really goes both ways.

Yeah, I think that's a great perspective that it is both ways, right. And if the company, I also told this to my brother, so it's kind of fresh. I said if the company doesn't take the time and effort to also welcome you and to make you feel at home, make it so like you want to work there, then that might not be the company for you. And sure, there's a lot of circumstances, a lot of people, a lot of things in the process that might go wrong about the fact that they go wrong or they

won't go wrong more often. Like those signals you have to pick up and then you can still continue, but at least pick up those signals and see if you still want to want to go ahead with it. Basically because it's time investment from both sides at the end of the day, which I think people forget as well. Yeah, I did a poll on my LinkedIn, and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this because I asked a question. It was fresh on my head, on my

mind, based on an episode. It was with regards to landing a job. Could be your first one, could be many. Which of these factors do you think is most important? And I laid out network, I laid out portfolio and I laid out something else and I don't know what that was. OK. Let me guess, you've got network, you've got portfolio

was resume or branding. One, I think it, I think it would have been one of those two like a combination of those two in any case networking got the most votes which is what I expected and portfolio actually got a big vote as well and I that surprised me too because I feel like if you don't have a network people might not even see your portfolio. Like a portfolio is a bit further down the line when you already have your foot in the door and that's like a kind of

seal the deal moment. I would say like a cherry on top, but you still have to. Therefore I was very biased with network. Figure out how to get the foot in the door as well. What what do you think is like

one of the most important factors when it comes to landing a job? Yeah, I would agree with your your audience. I think network is is super important. Network is about who you know, but it's also about making new connections as well. So sometimes you can feel like I don't have a network like I I used to do that a little bit. I think I used to victimize myself or feel like the underdog a lot when I when I just moved to the Netherlands. Like, I don't know anyone.

My dad doesn't own companies here or you know, and it's just going to be difficult for me. So I think I got into a bit of a negative headspace around that. But then when I changed my thinking to be like, wait, you can build a network, right? So let me start with the people I know. My classmates are all really smart, motivated people. I wonder who they know. Oh, let me talk to my neighbour, my friends, people from within my circle or just randomly reach

out to people. So I think from that sense, it's really good to build a network. And I got very organized with building my network. I used to track all my new LinkedIn connections, right? So it would be like, OK, Patrick, he's a software engineer, works at this company doing that. Oh OK. I see at this company might be someone else I'd be interested to know. I wonder if Patrick could introduce me to that person. So I also got really good with

making messaging templates. So I used to have all my templates that are sent to people just so it doesn't sound like you know, you have to do the work. Like, hey, Patrick, can you introduce me to Homeboy and the other? Team I hate that, Yeah. No effort done. And just like you mentioned that you'd like it when recruiters send really nice personalized messages to you. Yeah, that gets your attention.

And even for me, like, you're like, you did my research and me like, Hecky, I see you worked it. Reddit and Disney and Float Traders, I'm like, OK, he did his work. He did his work. So you know, people like to hear great things about themselves and like to know you put in the work. So building your network is also going to be really important

when you show that. I've invested time into looking up who you are and what you do and I want to connect with you for a very specific reason, you know, and if it is for the reason of having a job. And I'm going to be putting out a LinkedIn post about this. Make it very clear what sort of job you want and that they check the career page to see if

there's anything open. You know, I think it's can be a bit frustrating when you're working at a company and some just like, here's my CV, let me know if there any openings available. You've gotten messages like this, right? Exactly. But when someone shows they've done the work and that's what makes you think, okay, this is someone I think I'd like to introduce to someone or get them in the interview process or have a chat with so you can build up that network.

But I think although networking is very important, it's also good to give people a chance who might not be able to get into the company. So at one of my previous companies, one of the things I implemented was a no referral policy, right? And I think within recruitment, most people like the ideas of referrals, right? Like if you have a referral, you get a referral bonus. And referrals are usually more qualified because they know

people. But what I noticed happening was that people were referring people who had just like them, right? So maybe they studied at the same universities, were in the same class, worked the same companies. So before you know it, you've got a team that's all X Google or X matter or all went to this one university, Einhoven Dell or like, you know, Bucharest University or something. And I noticed our teams becoming

very, very homogeneous, right. So for a while, and it's not to say it's a forever policy, but for a while I introduced the no referrals policy and this enabled us to get fresh talent combined with me sourcing actively head hunting on LinkedIn for people who are very diverse in terms of you know, their backgrounds, education maybe way of thinking that we wouldn't have otherwise have hired.

So as much as I think networking is important, it's also companies that they take those steps to ensure that people who might not have a network there can also get a chance to get in. Yeah, yeah, I love that you highlight that if you put in the

work, you have a higher likelihood of getting noticed, of getting basically seen right. Because if you're like everyone else, if you send the most easiest message and you basically shoot with buckshot and spread everywhere with your CV and that's not the best strategy. Probably time is however, yeah, what people might not want to put in, like I I talked to my brother in this process was for a long time. He landed a job. Now I'm really happy for him, but it it did take him down.

He was like, send out my resume to 100 companies. And even on Reddit I see people say it's been a year and I have the spreadsheet and it's 500 companies and I've only had a handful of conversations And then I'm like, well, something must be wrong, right? Because if if the number is that high, then something you're doing is just not working.

And most likely this is my assumption is they cannot put all the effort into those 500 companies, otherwise that would be like a full time job and probably they do not want or they don't see that the effort would make a difference. But I'm glad to hear that you're saying the effort can make a difference. So at least that's the least you can do. Basically is put in the effort if you really want it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, getting a job for a lot of people isn't

easy. I mean, sometimes it can be easier, like I said, depending on who you know and everything. But sometimes I think we think that this should be easy, right? I should be able to just, like, get a job like this and in terms of a short amount of time. But, you know, that's funny. I was having a chat with my dad and he was saying, oh, getting a job today is so much easier than it was for me in like the 80s or

something, right? And I'm like does every generation just think it was not easy it? Gets easier and easier. Exactly. And then I have an older cousin who, you know, finished high school around the time of the 2006 recession. And he was saying that it was really tough back then between, you know, 2006 to 2008 to get a job a lot of people want. And he was like, it's so much better today.

And I think it's so subjective in terms of when it's easy, when it's difficult for as generally as a society as that does differ so much from place to place and in terms of what's happening in the economy as well. But I think that, you know, putting in that effort does matter. But you also being smart with that effort, like let's say the person you mentioned who puts in 500 applications, right?

That's very much taking a quantity approach, which can sometimes yield rewards, like maybe out of 500 applications if only 10% of companies reply, get 50 interviews or something like that. But I think it's more important to have a quality approach than a quantity approach. So a quality approach can be this. OK, here's my list of 10 companies I'm really interested in working for. And let's say, for example,

booking.com is one of them, right? If I'm really interested in booking, I would map out their teams to be like, OK, what kind of teams are here? Here are all the product teams at booking. Out of the product teams, let me draw up a couple of names of people. OK. Here are 15 people who are doing the exact job I want. Let me think about how I can reach out to those 15 people in addition to applying for the role. You know, and I think that is the approach.

I also help with my clients in terms of mapping out the market and it yields higher result while also putting in maybe less effort in the sense that we're not taking a quantity approach. I love that a lot because you're basically leveraging the information that is out there specifically on LinkedIn to figure out people that are like you or not like you, that people that have the job that you might want.

If you see an open position, then definitely those people are going to be your colleagues or your peers and you're going to mirror off of them and learn from them and they're going to learn from you as well. So reaching out to them and basically becoming friends with them, I guess is a really good strategy. I've never thought of that. Is that what people do nowadays? Like to distinguish themselves already? I think people are a little bit

afraid. That's what, That's what I would feel like, Yeah. I would feel hesitant to do that because with the perspective of the one I have where people reach out and say can you just refer me to so and so or do you have any open positions and I'm like well if you have a we have a job board, you could have started there basically I don't want to come across like that. So then that already is a hurdle in my head for approaching anyone.

Basically I would never approach someone be like I don't even know what I would say even. Yeah, yeah, No, for sure. And I think that can come to a lot of confidence. It can be a confidence issue. You know, here's someone, maybe they are the VP of Engineering at this big company, and I'm interested in being part of their team. What do I even say to them? How do I even talk to them? And I think that stops people from even reaching out.

Yeah. Or you think maybe they're getting so many messages already, what are the chances they're going to see mine? So first of all, people aren't getting as many messages as you think, right? Because that exact, that exact reason. People are kind of a little bit hesitant too. So I think it's important to just have confidence in yourself and faith that I'm gonna reach out.

And if they don't reply, guess what? I'm gonna follow up. There's a lot of stats that say even as recruiters, if I would reach out to you, let's say you're someone I'm trying to hire, the first reach out message gets on average a 33% response rate. Okay, right. So most people don't respond to the first message. The second message gets a 40% response rate. So follow up like hey Patrick, just checking if you got my message last week.

As I mentioned working on this product, I think your background would be very interesting. Let me know if you're free for a 15 minute chat or something. The third message gets a 60% response rate. The third follow up, because most people are busy, maybe they don't even check LinkedIn that much. So instead of taking it personally that this person hasn't replied, why didn't you

reply to my message? As opposed to being like OK let me send one last follow up like hey, keep the tone light friendly, Checking in one last time. Maybe missed my last two messages about this and this. Let me know if you're interested and you know and you kind of leave it. And as recruiters they would recommend the follow up cadence for us being like every three to seven days, so maybe over the course of three weeks sending 3

messages. So following up is also really good when you're on the other side as a job seeker in terms of reaching out to people. And I would follow up a lot with people, you know, respectfully and sort of space out my messages to see if they would respond. And I noticed usually by the 3rd message that's when people would would reply. So I often got this question like, oh Kiki, how did you get into these companies? I'm like I messaged people and followed up. I love that. Yeah.

Yeah, that's really funny. You you message, you mentioned like the confidence to actually step up and message someone and I was thinking, I I've never done that. The funny thing is I do that with the podcast. I don't follow up. Maybe I maybe I should. I do search for people very specifically and then I see if there's any content of them online speaking because they cannot hold a decent conversation on a podcast, still a podcast. So the audio thing is a thing,

basically. But then I send my message and that actually has a really high return, like like I don't know the percentages, but I never follow up. That's very interesting. I'm going to try that for sure. The thing is I also get messages and this is mainly by e-mail people that find the the e-mail address that's on YouTube and most of the people are editors and they want to edit the podcast and this is how their message starts.

A big fan of the show a compliment and then it says but you're not leveraging shorts and so and so or your thumbnails basically suck or the titles could be better and like this whole build up and then you just destroy what we're doing and then that's it. And then I see those people follow up. And I did wonder, who does that work? Maybe it's the way they follow up. Sometimes it's like passive aggressive. This is my last message. It's not really fun and lighthearted anymore, but in any

case, it made me wonder. So I'm really happy that you confirmed that follow-ups matter. And they work, but they work if you do it the right way.

Yeah, they do it the right way. But I think what's interesting is about that first message you get, right So and someone says great podcast but da da. Da, da, Yeah, could be better. Discredits everything. How does that make you feel in that moment? Like, do you think, yeah, this is someone I really want to work with, they truly understand this podcast and what I'm trying to achieve?

Or do you feel like they're trying to neg you in a way to be like, let me highlight the negative and maybe they'll be interested. Yeah, it's it's interesting like I think it's the last part where they highlight something but they they still they haven't asked. Basically there was one person and I I might show it to you. After the show, they sent a message and they said, oh, I've been listening to your show at work basically. And then don't worry, my boss doesn't mind.

And then I told my boss and all of a sudden he wants to be guest. And then I'm like, is this real or is this just a fairy tale basically because first of all, the person is remote and I've said many times, I only do in person episodes from I mean from like the last 50-60, maybe 70 episodes. So that's the thing. So if you really were listening, I might have noticed that the people are actually in the same room. So then, I don't know if it's real or not, but I'm such a

believer. I want to believe it's real. Yeah, that's what gets me. Right. And I think that's interesting because that touches upon psychology. Like your podcast means a lot to you. You've put a lot of work and effort. So I think if someone were ever to work with you in terms of making the podcast better, you want to feel like they really understand it, right? And they've really done the research, just as you do research into the people who you invite on the show.

So I think even with, let's say, on the job sense, reaching out to people on LinkedIn, when you show that you understand their background and then as well as the company challenges, I think that's going to be really, really important. So let's say, for example, you want to work at booking.com, right? And you see someone who's working in the search optimization team and they're trying to build out a new product, you know, maybe, you know, compete with Airbnb in that sort of sense.

When you show you've done your research into the product, they're looking into the ways they're trying to have a competitive advantage, that person's background that will get their attention much more than, yeah, that new products you're building is great, but these and these things are missing. That's what you're missing, yeah? It's kind of like, oh, because we're a bit attached to our work, right?

It's a bit sensitive. So you can still show the value add without having to like sort of put what they've done down. Yeah, you have an incredible way of highlighting that.

Most of the answers I have actually right in front of me, I just have to flip it around and put myself in the shoes of the people that reach out to the people that have something and don't have an ask, but show what you have to offer in that way. I love how you highlight that. I honestly think you should do podcast or start doing more stuff like this because this has been a real joy. Or. Maybe I'll take over this one when you're not looking.

You'll be my Co host. There'll be a lot of fun. Thank you so much for coming on khaki. This was a real blast. Most. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Cool, then we're going to round it off here. I'll put all khaki socials in the description below, check her out, let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.