How to Change and Improve Organisations with Nilguin van Raad

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akio and if you're interested in making a true difference in your organization and solving real problems, this episode is for you. Joining me. Today is no grandfather odd at her core, she's a sensitive Daredevil, who lives the principles of change in order to make a true difference and it really shines through in this conversation. So real good one. I'll put our socials in description below. Check her out. And with that being said, enjoy

the episode. Do you take like particular care

of those kind of First Impressions that you have with, like, a new team or or new Connections in that way? Yeah. A lot lot, to be honest. Yeah. Because you can only get a first impression once. Yeah. And I'm quite sensitive to what is happening. So I'm quite used to really looking into. What is this all about? Yeah, so trying to find the patterns trying to find the culture, trying to see how the behavior is and where that does help, and where it doesn't.

And and that's so much information and it really helps to get things going, the way I need them to go. I could imagine that I wasn't consciously thinking about like a first impression. Yeah. But we had some new colleagues joining our team, for example and one of the existing team members they had like a pair programming session and I think it was one of their first

interactions. Yeah. And that person got so overwhelmed of the domain knowledge and the technical expertise that because I leak that was already on the team suggested. Well, next time we'll switch it around on. A. And then over the weekend, the new colleague actually was dreading that experience. They were so overwhelmed that they weren't looking forward to switching it around and then showing their kind of knowledge

in that sense. And I, I, I was kind of sad by that because that's a, I guess, a big impact. Someone has is unlike a first impression raising the bar. Exactly. Yeah. And that thought person then dealt with, like, feedings of imposter, yeah, feelings of not being good enough because I asked like what was your first impression on anything on the project on the domain? Main on the people. It's an interesting domain. It's an iot domain. And then that was what he responded with.

Yeah. And I was like that, that feedback needs to come to the holy, right? Because they need to be aware that they can have such an impact. Yeah. Like it's a good thing to be of a certain level of technical expertise and to know the domain. Like it's a good thing but the way it comes across can have negative side effects as well. So did the colleague stay? Yeah, they stayed and they had a conversation and it's not a bit

better. Like it doesn't come from a bad place in Case. But I feel like being aware of kind of the impact that you can have specially on a first impression. Yeah, I felt that my colleague that was already on the team needs to be aware of that. Yeah, and I think with that, they'll do probably adapt their behavior accordingly. Yeah, I feel, I feel if you

start with someone or something, yeah, it's very important to just find like, truly try to see what happens. Yeah. So in order to be successful in anything, you need to truly understand why things art, they are like how they are today. Yeah, because they grew for some reason in what it is today. And if it needs to move to anything else, you really truly need to understand what happened before that created this outcome of today.

Yeah, I kind of need to see both the culture, the patterns, the the system that's behind it. The way it's organized, the contribution of people how how people are used to doing it together and in all of their jacquet need to kind of understand. Is it helpful today and moving forward or Or doesn't it at any value? Any more do we need to change it? Yeah, for me. Organizational change.

Like, just the things you mentioned. It's a it's so much like it entails a lot and seeing kind of patterns through history and how that can kind of explain the future or the path that we're moving forward to, for me, that's a humongous task. Like I don't even know how you would start with that. Do you have like, it's the start always kind of the same in orientation? Or is it different even every time?

Yeah. To me, it feels the same but the input circuit is very different, of course, but I am quite consistent in that. Put it like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how you do it. Yeah, I'm just walking around and sniffing up what happens? Yeah, I mean it's it hangs around. You can feel it if you come into one of those rooms and or in a building and you see those people interact that you kind of get his first feel of hunched like what's really happening out here?

Yeah. Yeah and I think It's just a matter of trying to stay without any judgment, it's trying to be really curious and open to understand it in the context of what is happening there. And then, yeah. And then there's in my head decent little. Well, it sounds as if it's just pure analysis but it's not. It's, I kind of look at what's the process is around here? What's the organization? Like, how does it help or not? Yeah, I'm looking at like, What's the culture? Like I do. They interact.

Is it constructive? Is it? Let's try it. I striving to be the best. Or are they? Truly collaborating. Is there any openness or closeness amongst them? That doesn't help them forward. Yeah. Is there any leadership issues that need to be resolved is leadership able to truly facilitate what that team are

those teams need. And then there's also the system like the cultural system like Like if you would change every person in a team or if you would change a manager of a team like 10 times in five years and it still doesn't work, then it's not depending on the person's then something else is happening interesting and if so if you kind of sniff into what's happening over there then it gets truly fascinating and all those little pieces of input, they kind of make this puzzle.

Yeah. And then you need to gain of understand like what's the most important route goes to the things that I'm Seeing due to the patterns that I'm seeing.

Yeah. What's the most important thing that needs to change around and then you need to pick the right thing to do first, I can imagine you ever experienced that I do a lot of things naturally and I feel like, I mean, I guess it's kind of an artifact of that like I'm naturally curious. So if there's an organization, I want to understand why things are the way they are, why people behave the way they behave, and it's more of an innate curiosity and it's not something that's

strategic that I can. Take with me and then apply somewhere. I'm trying to learn that because I think it can, it can help my skill set and more aware of the theory, and then kind of layout, for example, all those puzzle pieces and then kind of decide based on history and experience. Yeah, what I think we should pick up next or what, the biggest puzzle should be, we should work on the piece but a lot of it is still kind of got feeding experience-based

learning in that way. I think I think I'll always always be like that. Yeah this game truly need to trust. Your intuition to I mean it's not something that comes with Russian a lonely. Yeah you can't really learn the trick to do that. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Once you've decided like what to work on like are you 100% in or is there still doubt or or do you test those assumptions first or how do you like take that

first step in that way? Yeah, that's an interesting question because I think it kind of depends on the assignment so this assignment gets you the context. Yeah assignment gives you the Text in where they expect you to move and what they expect you to do. So that gives you kind of the boundaries but I am not that limited by boundaries, so I I it's just a piece of information. Yeah, an assignment or contacts

is just just information. So I understand why they asked it and what they don't expect And I think, then I do my sniffing around and once I get like, once I get my analysis kind of complete in my head and I find the most important root causes in whatever angle they are. Ya then I think it's very important to just feed that back as open as a stress transparent as possible because I think they really have the right to understand what is truly happening. Yeah, exactly.

And that would give them the opportunity to choose because they don't always do, but it would give them the opportunity to choose. To truly fix it. Exactly. And if that's not what's going to happen, that's perfectly fine. But if they do, then they also know the honesty and the straightforwardness. And, yeah, the, how I put it

with them here, and I truly believe that, if your intentions are pure, yeah, you can say almost anything interesting. If you do it without a judgment, if you do it. Looking forward, if you do it from a true. Meaning of making things better. If that is your true intention, you can say everything. So that conversation back to this. Those people that asked me to come and look around and do something for them.

If you start having that true conversation with them, it quite often opens their eyes because it's different angles to what they don't do often. They don't often get feedback. You don't often get the true information anymore.

What do you think that is? Because is it because they operate as such a level that people don't dare to give them that feedback. Like my manager has asked me before, can you be 100% honest with me? Because it feels like you are. Yeah. And I'm like, I think I am. It's a beautiful device. I'm Not sure, right? Because there's an innate sense of hierarchy. I might not even know it.

Yeah, but I don't know if I can because you are my manager at the end of the year, I have a conversation with you. It's about salary, it's about performance. It's about my role in this organization. Yeah. So then I don't know. And it's also about your image in a company. Yeah. And and how others perceive you because he will be the one talking about you to others which makes gives you growth opportunities or not. Yeah yeah I am. At this moment, I work as a

freelancer. So that gives me kind of instant Independence and autonomy. Yeah, but I've been working for a large company over 20 years and I have I think I have kind of a unique thing in me. That makes me independent of hierarchy. So for me I truly believe that if sings things need to be said or done, you need to say them or do them from what I just said from the best intention. Yeah. And if people around you or above you or whoever can't deal with that, that's not really my

problem. I can't help it if you can't deal with it. So either either I didn't say it right enough like clear enough or or carefully enough or honestly enough. So I can try to rephrase and try again but if We can't deal with that. I used to go up. Yeah, up the chain because then the problem is not going to be soft on that level in to go up without without cheating or without I do bite by post them. Right? I let them know him before end.

Yeah. But you need to go up in order to truly solve it and I've always done that. I've never felt any yeah. Anything holding me back from doing that. Interesting.

Yeah, it's only teach you that because I I didn't As a software engineer, I started out in operations. Yeah, and I had a mentor and he kind of taught me how to do that. Like that wasn't innate in me and because I saw him do that and get stuff done. Really solve problems. Yeah, I'll just put a bandaid on it, but actually solve an underlying issue. Yeah, I was like, oh, that's possible. And he's like, escalating is not a bad thing.

No, it's not a bad thing at all. People think it's - people think, oh, you're overstepping somewhere. You're telling on someone. But that's not what you're doing. It's not. No it's and it depends on your intentions. Yeah, yeah, I can. Repeat that often enough that's what that's what allows it or not.

So if your goal is to just pause everybody and get them whatever fired or hurt some way that's wrong intention but if you do it from a, I want to truly make it better perspective and I've had the right conversations and I've tried but I couldn't get through because whatever practical thing, then you need to go up. Yeah. There's someone teach you that. Yeah. Or is it kind of a self learned skill? I think I've always At that. I think I remember. I remember me as a child.

This is one. Brilliant example. I was I think I was like 14 or so, I was in high school. Yeah. And I had to be home in time for. I don't know. I kind of recall the reason but I just felt I need to be home in time. It was important to me. Yeah. And then this teacher, he throw the bell rang. Our was done, I needed to go, and he just kept on talking and I was like, yeah, I need to go.

Time's up to bad press over. I'm leaving and he was just standing in front of the door like you're not going. I said well that's too bad for you but it's of school time now. So I'm free to go. So I have a few really good day. Bye. Bye. I'm leaving. Yeah, and I think I've always had that. Yeah. Principal thing of how it should be.

Hmm. You're not scared of those conversations either because me and especially early on, like the more green you are, the less experienced you have. Sometimes I was not looking. Looking forward to like, conversations with people, in higher leadership, and especially if something messed up, or I needed to explain things, like, I would get nervous.

And now, the more I've done that, the more I realize that like nervousness is good and I didn't have to be that nervous like everyone is in this together, and we're all moving forward. Yeah. But yet still, I was nervous and I wasn't looking forward to those conversations. I've always liked them. That's good. I always had the feeling that I was like, oh I got a piece of information that person is truly missing. Yeah. And I'm going to help him so much, by making me.

Understand where are the keys to unlock this Hidden Gem? Hunter can just improve. That's amazing. And of course, sometimes those mostly guys are quite intimidating, right? I mean, sometimes they've reputation of shouting around and bullying and blah, blah. But they do have that. And then I'm going to in my head like, well, I'm just gonna say it, if it doesn't hear it. That's okay. Yeah, I'll just move on. I don't mind if you can't hear it. That's, that's the perfect final outcome.

Yeah, and I kind of, what does your help me is?

I got to play around with rows of leery, so I kind of understood how this it is a model that explains how to be above and beneath, okay? And and how to how to communicate again Stand Together. And it's fascinating how you can influence the conversation using that model to yeah to to to bend it into the directory. You needed to go, interesting. Yeah, Rose of Larry's that. Yeah, okay, I'll check it out after. Yeah. Check it out. It's going to soften the in the description.

Yeah, it's good. Because I love like, I've done a communication training, it was called Insight in influence. Oh, that's me in there. You do a lot of role playing and you take a certain conversations. Style. Right? If I really want to do a discussion, I can only do certain phrases or only keep holding this discussion. And then, at some point, I see where I hit the wall, we're discussing doesn't really make sense anymore.

Then after retrieve information, I have to ask questions and really do active listening and trying to understand this pull and push tiles. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's practicing. It's really brilliant. I really like that. Yeah. Because you still have play it like consciously and in different situation I do because I then realize, okay, this is not working. Because I've done that because it was like a five-day training course, and it was like, really intense.

You were there from 9 in the morning. You would exit at like 6:00 or 7:00. Yeah, it was also brought, which was a whole experience in, and of its own. But throughout that I was like, okay, this is not work anymore. I have to switch, like, I genuinely consciously can switch. And I have my preferred style, like it's kind of you can see in the podcast, like, I like Advocate listening. I like trying to understand them in eight curious.

So, that might mean my default style, but if I do need to get stuff done, I can't only retrieve information. Some point. I have to make an argument. I have to make a point. I have to inspire in a different way as well. Yeah. And figuring out what works best and when to apply what? Or even building that relationship. So you can do that. Yeah, I think that's very valuable. It is.

And I think you say building a relationship that can take time but it can also be done in an instant mmm, like, and that has to do with intention again. Yeah. Because if you're ever, For one moment, when I stepped into a room of a manager, like five or six layers above me, I needed to tell him something really ugly. Okay. That's very ugly. Yeah. It had to do with him too. And I remember coming into that office and he would not have time for me.

He would just be honest. Emailing and he would just have you just ignore me coming in. I really and I was like, okay is this, how are we going to do this conversation? No way, yeah, this is a good start. So I was going to sit on his desk like next to him and I was literally Above him because he was still sitting on this chair and I looked at him and I busy today. Yeah, I kind of forced him to do it. I just went into his space. He had to do something with me.

Yeah. And then he like he looked up and then we both had this grin on her face and I kind of won the first battle. That's hilarious. It was cool. Yeah. And that was done, I could say anything and he would just listen. And he later also a few times later, he would come back to me, said, how did I do that? Did it help? And how To proceed and then we got this coaching relation and that kind of worked out.

So it can also be done in an instant without all this style switching, or about without adjusting yourself that much. Yeah, it's also a matter of, and that's playing with rows of leery. It's also about being on the same level and not accepting the dominance, or arrogance, or of another, and just getting at the same height. Yeah. Or depth, loathe, how do you say that the other? So let's go. The same level, interesting. I like that.

You said that. You also got feedback from him, like, how it was perceived in how it came across. It's something I didn't do consciously, but I wanted to know, again, probably from a sense of curiosity. I wanted to know how I came across. Yeah, because I would grab a colleague randomly.

I would say this conversation was really difficult, wasn't looking forward to it. Yeah, I don't know how I came across and with that feedback with their feedback, I will go to others and see if kind of that puzzle made sense from the different pieces of feedback and that would then be okay. Do I need Work on this. Do I like this? How I come across to any to change anything? What can I do? Better in the future. Yeah, and I did it very much early on, I think, also, because

of more insecurities I guess. But it helps you to kind of see yourself in that interaction. Exactly. Is very important. Yeah, I think is valuable do that I like that. You did that as well?

Yeah. Has it ever backfired where you tried to convey certain pieces of information might not have been what they wanted to hear. So they act At like, they didn't want to hear that. I think I kind of block that out. That's good. It's not that important to me if they want to hear it. Yeah. So some stupid but I really mean it. It's not that important. So it's what I can bring. Yeah. And they can either take it or not and both is fine.

I think it has to do with I don't often have a judgment. Yeah. And and staying without a judgment, makes it possible to not disturb the relation. Well, having interesting content going up and down between persons. And I think I had, I had like, every of course I had assignments or, or jobs or that didn't work out that. Well, of course, I did,

everybody does. And then you learn But I'm it's I don't think it's related to what I had to say or to how I said it. I think it's the more related to underlying values that don't match or company culture that that where I don't fit. Yeah if the culture is an example very political or very aimed at short-term success and I come there with the intention to do structurally things. That are helpful in the longer term. Yeah, they are not going to be able to hear that.

It's going to clash understand and it's fine. And I don't belong there at that moment in time. Yeah. And that's also fine. I like that a lot because accepting that it that is a thing that you cannot control allows you to move forward. So much easier than if you were like okay, was it something? I said it wasn't how it came across. Like is it something I can control? Yeah. And then probably because it's a class. You're not like able to get that

feedback. So accepting what has happened and accepting it. Might have been out of your control. Allows you to move forward faster. I feel like yeah and making sure it doesn't become a clash. Yeah, it's just the one facto one experiences hits and how I stand in this assignment thing. And then you have this conversation like okay well I don't think we really match then it's just also just an observation and just okay. Then then that's it.

That's perfectly fine, I'm just thanks a lot for time. I learned a lot and looking forward to seeing you again at this moment it's not the right place to be but perfect.

Yeah, it seems How you come across this? Very first, all genuine and I can see that. You're laying out, things objectively, that you have kind of that. You're not really there to judge, right? You put things in perspective, you give it straight as is and objectively. And I think it's a valuable skill, but I don't know if it can be taught, if it can be learned or if you would just have it in a clean them, I think I am. It's another book thingy. But I once read a book, it's

called the books. It's written by the our Banner Institute. Yeah, and it describes brilliantly and easily how how to interact without having a judgment. So it's something that you can get a lot of insight in and you can understand your own position in that a lot. But I think it also comes from both nature and nurture. So I think that during life, everybody lives their life and life's throw stuff at you and some stuff is nice and some stuff is not that nice.

And at moments that that happens, you have this chance to to decide how you're going to deal with that. So, of course, you're going to feel heard or angry or sad, or, or a victim for a while. Yeah. And accepting those feelings. And then like, getting over them, like, I have felt all of them. I felt my worst anger. I felt my worst fears. I've been getting over them. And then thinking okay so if this was it I'm feeling a bit better now and then continue.

And then then I think it's a matter of choice. How you are able to deal with that? If you, you can't blame not being happy on others or situation that had happened in the past. It's kind of stupid to have, I don't know 30 Algiers, in which you're not happy because you had five years as a childhood which were not that. Nice. Yeah, that's kind of. It doesn't make sense, right.

So lift through the That's and then the site that you are, the only one responsible for your own happiness, on a day-to-day basis and influence that it's within your circle of influence. You can control what you think and how you feel about it and what you want to do about it. Yeah, that is a choice, and in the beginning, after life, through ugly things, it's a bit difficult. But then, once you've gone through that, then you teacher to choose again.

Exactly. Yeah. I don't know where I got this quote, but I read somewhere that You can't really influence what happens while you have some form of influence but things happen, and things can happen for a reason. They can also happen for no reason whatsoever. Yeah. But you you have the option to choose how to react towards that you are in control of your emotions as well. Yeah. And how you react and how you move forward or not? That is your choice basically.

Yeah. And it's also it's about so you can be a victim if something bad happened you are a victim. Yeah and it's your choice if you're To be that, how long you're going to be that? And what you're going to learn from that once you decide to step out now and continue? Yeah, I like that a lot. I feel like this might be weird,

but people that have gone through real hardships, sometimes I have a conversation with them and I can feel that they've had that experience and they've moved forward from that. Like I feel like it, it gives purse a person, a certain sense of perspective and it comes across also in a conversation or how they behave, all of a sudden there's something different or there something more to them. M that wasn't there before. It's funny how you said it, because it feels to me if I meet

people that have that. Yeah, it feels to me. They have this steady base in themselves, so their deities Russian Matryoshka dolls that rock a bit. If you don't, if you push on them, but they will always stay in the middle. You they do, is they do wiggle. They don't fall, exactly. And they will always be in their bases. And that basis is just themselves, they are good with them. Yeah, and if you're good with you, you'll be All in the basics, whatever life throws at you.

You will be stable because, you know, you can go through that because you've done it before I like that analogy a lot. Yeah, that's how it feels. Yeah, people that are grounded. That know who they are uncomfortable with that. And they've kind of gotten the experience that allows them to be that comfortable with it. Yeah, no, yeah.

Just the hear you met them to yeah, for sure. Yeah. I don't know if I'm in that place but people have described me like that as well. And I think everyone goes through hardships. It just varies how much and in what frequency and feel like, but you are right? You except that it has happened. You choose to move forward. Yeah. They're they're things that have happened.

Like my mom got cancer twice when I was in university once and I could deal with it, and I still get emotional talking about this and then it happened again the year after and the second time was worse because they told her like there's a small chance you'll make it through this which was like she something as someone that's very positive that can go through. Anything. Yeah. But if you tell her that life, A medical expertise? Yeah, yeah, that can take a hit in motivation, it really badly.

Yeah. And that's it's through sips through me. My siblings through everyone and still, she made it through and I think throughout that experience like some people are like, are you might have missed out on like University experiences and stuff like that. And I was like, I might have, but I gained something else and it's hard to explain because this is a certain sense of perspective and a certain sense of like increased value that I have towards a family. Yeah, words, family feeling.

Towards my mom who still there. Yeah. And I appreciate that. It has happened. Not in the moment, definitely not, but I did gain something from it. I didn't just lose. Yeah, yeah, I recognize other things but that's, that's a big story. Yeah, that's a big, big experience. It's nice. If you can go through that together, right? If you can be there with your siblings and your mother and your other family and do that together, it's so, so important to do that together. Yeah, yeah.

It was anyway. Was really hard because I was like, okay, I, I thought my life was going to go in a different direction basically. I told my mom, I'll drop by the university. I'll start working like we need to figure out how to do this. Yeah. And she was like, you make sure that you live your life like the way you want it. The way you planned it, like it's not going to change. Basically, you live your life and I'm not gonna allow you to drop out because that was always

the plan. Yeah, so with that in mind, I was like, okay this is this is going to be all right, eventually might not be now. Not now. Yeah, but eventually we'll be all right. And that's how it how it turned out. Yeah, if it might have turned out differently it would have still been. All right? It would have just been different. Yeah. And I feel like with that in mind, I don't know things and hardships. Now don't seem as hard anymore. No, basically it's just puts

things in perspective. Yeah, but it's beautiful. How she gave you like the purpose? How she gave you the drive to continue? Yeah, I took to live. Absolutely next to what everything that happened? That's Nice of her that you could do that for you. Yeah yeah. I think I think I had a lot in a in me but I have a lot with

Orson urchin a lot from her and I can pinpoint. This is what I got from you. I gave her that feedback the way I act. Now that she Praises. I'm like, yeah, that's because of what you did to me. You told me that exactly not did to me but how you raised me basically. Yeah, now that's the experience. Do you then also recognize that with your siblings today? Oh yeah. Did I share that? Yeah, that's day of certain like, I can see them and I can perceive and sometimes I reflect objectively.

I'm like, where does that come from? Like I also do that I'll maybe the have that from me but then I have that from either my mom or my dad. Right? And you can see that in the chain that people kind of they do what they've seen before. Yeah. And I think in organizations is the same your family to the same. Yeah, even in your friends circle, you act like the people around you. Yeah. And if they're different than you they do things differently.

Is one it gives you perspective you commit a called. This is also an option. I didn't know it existed. But I'll take this because I think is better. Yeah, I have no problem being a chameleon in being like our I like having many tools to figure things out. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah, it's nice. How you say that? People act like how their parents did Heather grandparents did and how its in this family history, right? Yeah. It's quite extreme to be honest.

If you think about it you have any knowledge about systems because this is like a family system and have patterns are given through generation to generation to generation. You see, patterns and behavior going through all All those lines like multiple Generations back.

Yeah. And it's very interesting. I'm making the switch to accompany our because it's very interesting to to realize and understand that those same patterns in how you behave are also existing in companies. Yeah. So in an organization it's also very common to see patterns that are just there that are not depending on people but are just in the building, they're just in the walls. The walls you step in you just

There are there and quite often. If you look at change in organizations, if it doesn't work and everything that makes sense has been tried, quite often, it's in those, I call it systems. Yeah. And then you have to look in a different way. You have to feel it in a different way. Yeah. And then translate and subtitle what's truly happening to people that are not used to trusting that Intuition or really seeing what that system, how that influences the culture of today, exactly.

Lee, it's fascinating. If you start looking in that angle, it can imagine a me. You, you gave the example of a team completely switching, even management. And then the same patterns, kind of re-emerging to me. That is very hard to grasp, like, what is happening there and what is kind of the cause of that? Yeah, because that is a system. There's a root cause somewhere. It's not, that people, people who might be the easy solution. Yeah, but it's not, that is what's right?

Let's try. And of course, that's the first thing you're trying to say, like, hey, don't I have a it's a really It's a fascinating example. I took I once was a manager of a team and in that team, the average age, I don't know exactly. Let's say it was about 35. Yeah. And what happened is, I was in a conversation in a refinement with our team as their manager, because I wanted to see how

they, how they interacted. Just get me loads of input about those persons about how they communicated important for well understanding how they are, and how they perform everyday. Yeah, I joined refinements quite often. So I wasn't 35. Moment. And those people 35-ish, all of them, they started talking. It was in a time that I was with ing. They started talking about the merge of ing, both Bank. Okay, that happened when they were born.

Yeah. But then still they had arguments, it's came from postbank. Really as like what? Yeah you're saying what exactly why. And then I was like, this is not, there was a better going on at Emo's. Everything was going on in the door and I was like this is not okay. This is not the most people know this is in the system. We need to do something differently. It was cool. Yeah. Okay imagine yeah.

So strange also for people that are very much like looking towards short term Solutions or remorse or short-sighted than others. I feel like communicating that it is not in the people that we need to look into other things that like a whole system needs to change. Yeah, I think the fact that a system needs to change is one thing and then the time period than it actually does change is going to vary But I think it's a long kind of term play.

It depends on the root cause mmm, and how can I put that? So, so if, if it is pure, systemic is, if, if if the only wood goes is in the system. Yeah, there's this beautiful TV program, they made of it. It's called cross the line. Yeah. So they have this gym with kids and the kids are there. Some bullying going on in this group does get sorrow with their back against the wolf that Em.

And then they say, take two steps forward, if your parents are still together, step step and others, don't move. Take two steps forward if well, all kinds of situations. Yeah. And then they say stop. Look around people look around and they see hey, those people, that act a bit weird, every now and then, they're still with her back against the wall or just two steps away. And I'm here, almost on the other side of the gym. What's happening. And what they do is, they solve

the system. They do a system intervention and The they do it on the binding, so they do it on the inclusion. So what they do is they they they enlarged the extrapolate of his effectively English, but they make larger. The differences between the people in that group. Yeah. And what they do is they say it gets visible by people moving taking distance from that wall. Yeah.

The physical divide literally. Yeah. So what happens is, and then it stops and what happens then is they said cuddling and they start like, oh my gosh, I never Realized life was like that for you. Now, I understand why you dress may be different, or are you behave a bit different or I you have your mind somewhere else, why you sometimes, your text is a bit rude, or whatever. Yeah. Or you can't adapt to how we think it should be done in our system.

How it should be? Yeah. And then this inclusion comes because the differences have been made, clear explicit. And then the inclusion of the differences is there. And the bullying is gone. Yeah, it's just gone. And that's just an intern. Tension that can take an hour. Yeah, that's gone. So sometimes it's very easy and sometimes most of the times changes are very complex. So there's many routes courses. If you solve one or a few, you don't even see any difference.

But, you know, that you need to solve them because there are so many of them, you need to get through maybe 60 70 percent of those root causes before you see any difference. Yeah. So example, yeah, that's really

cool. If you like, like, even in a team of said this before, but it always feels like a group of individuals, kind of comes together. Yeah. And through tried and true, and a lot of time, they'll figure out those differences and

inclusion will happen, right? Until, or unless they really Clash. But then still there's some form of intervention and they still grow towards each other, but there's not really anything that I've seen that people take the time initially when a team forms to actually create those relationships to get an understanding of People come from why they are different or why they are the way they are for them. The collaboration to be better because of it, if you like it happens naturally.

But no one puts in the time and effort to actually do that. And accelerate that process even though it might be valuable so valuable. Yeah. And also they like this is one of the principles our system needs to comply to. There's a few of them, so it requires really looking very carefully to what truly happens. Yeah. And then, thinking of the proper interventions to do interesting. Yeah, what interventions have

you done? Done in a team like to actually put in practice. You have any examples towards that. Yeah, so yeah, I do. The reason I'm thinking is because I thought everything can be shared that easily. So no problem. I was kind of thinking which gonna take I think I'll just take one that I could have done. Yeah, instead of what I really did because it's not easy to share without giving, no problem

lot of information. So sometimes in organizations, you see that there is kind of a implicit fight going on in a, in a, gumbo in a team or in a management team or in an organization between business units. And if that's fight is not easily solved, and keeps coming back in all kinds of shapes and it looks different, every time. Sorry symptoms can be different, but the root cause is the same. It's quite likely. There is an issue in ordering.

Yeah, an ordinance is not necessarily hierarchical, but it's about who goes first on what, okay, it and system a system need to be explicit who goes first on what. So if there is People that need to work together but also will have a hierarchical or her. I could lie on the same level. Yeah. And a decision needs to be made. There's different interests. So, people want to go left another one to go, right? And if they never like, almost never agree, that's kind of strange.

Yeah, because in the end, they should have all of them should have the interest of the company as a whole. And that means that in like 60 70 percent, they should agree because it's quite clear, what the best would be for the Company, right. Yeah. If that doesn't happen and it still sounds logical with arguments that make sense. And so yeah, you kind of think. Hmm. What is underlying what's

happening? And it can be one of the causes can be that it is unclear on which subject who of those guys goes first. Yeah. So it could be that if it goes on, I don't know money and time lies. Mr. A goes first and if it goes on people and Development of people Ambitions, people person B goes first so that can be different. So in example in a group in a group in a team, if a team really finds and there's always concern this discussion going on people trying to be smarter, outsmart others.

Yeah, it helps if you make clear who goes first on what so if we talk about developing in a, then we say, okay, so who's most experienced in this and they make a line and then that line ordinance itself. And it goes. Okay, so what we talked about a we listen to you first because your most knowledgeable about that and then we listen to you and then the the group of you have a proper discussion and if all of you agree, the rest of us is will also agree because

you're there. So, you know, most yeah. But on a different subject that's earning could be completely different. So if a team an example keeps on fighting or manicures keep on fighting unhook who gets who gets their, who gets it their way. Yeah, it helps to find out. In which aspects to ordering might not be explicit interesting or being fought about if they fight about who goes first on, what it looks different. Yeah, and I wonder where that

comes from, right? Because as you say, people share

half kind of the best interest of the organization at heart. Yeah, I think you guys can Clash and there's probably a lot of like past experience that kind of contributes towards that that they do feel like all my something is in danger here. And that's why they fight an advocate for what they think is, right? Even though they might Like all your arguments better, they won't let go of that. Yeah. Because of those reasons, yeah,

which is very interesting. And I think they're kind of loop back to the beginning, but they're did in tension comes back, right? Yeah. So there's this thing called trust equation. It tells how trustworthy are you has to do, with what you do, is, what you see is what you your intention is. Yeah. And as long as that is congruent people are more easily to trust you. Yeah. Or easier for them to dress.

You. So then If you can, if people start feeling your intentions are not true, like sincere, or are not the look proper or not legitimate for what the organization goals and strategies are. Yeah, you lose trust really rapidly. Interesting to stay in congruent is up most important. Yeah, I think if you do that, that also allows you to either kind of draw between the lines or outside the lines. And move upward like you do in those conversations as well,

right? Because you and your interest and because of that sense of Jen. How do you say that of being genuine? I'm going to go with that kind of holds true in who you are then those boundaries because they're not really physical boundaries. They're not boundaries anymore now they're all go. Yeah interesting yeah.

What I think is interesting and what I perceived as well, is that the people that helped with those teams and that helped with those conversations. Yeah. Also they are with In teams, right? We can talk about leadership teams in that aspect, and they really know how to Advocate and how to build teams yet leadership team. Sometimes can also be a mess in and of its evening themselves in and of its own.

Yeah, one of those too. And in any case, I think, in most cases, what really helps is an objective view on that. How do you operate? Not just as a bunch of individuals, but really as a team, right? With a shared interest, the shared interest of the organization because this is a leadership team, habitats a fascinating statement because Leadership teams they can be teams but they can also be groups.

Yeah. And depending on the sordid to the difference between that is crucial because if you're a team you have a shared goal and a shared interest and then you need to have something that you're mutually dependent on each other to achieve the results. Yeah so if you look at ice skating, you have the beautiful things I have the the for people skating rounds and then all four of them need to make the finish in a certain time.

Yeah. So if you do that, all four of those people are dependent on each other's performance. Absolutely, one gets tired. The other takes over and goes first and takes the the harder, the harder position to, to skate from, right? That's a team. They're mutually dependent on each other. Yeah. Quite often management teams are no teams, but groups, so they happened to be together, managed

by one manager. Yeah. Because they're all in the same domain and example, but it doesn't necessarily I mean that they are a team because they could all be quite successful doing their own thing and being successful in their own area of responsibility. So only if there is an overlying goal. Yeah. That they have a dependency on each other only, then your statement is valid because you

should treat them as a group. If they are group, you should treat them as a team of their team and that is a complete different story. Interesting. I mean for me I've seen Seen people act as a group but yet there are shared goals and then all of a sudden it slips through the cracks. Right course, can be shared with the question is are they dependent of each other to reach them? Yeah, because if the answer is, no, they're not a team, it's not a bad thing.

If they're not a team, they still can hang out together to escape rooms together and have loads of fun. That's not, that's not the Criterium. But if you mean team in achieving a goal together, they need to be mutually dependent. If the one fails, all of them will feel. Yeah. It's not like that their group. Yeah. And can you me, as a manager of a team or group? You have to do different things, interesting?

Yeah, yeah, I've never seen that or, or have that distinction laid out to me like that, but I do think that some goals kind of slipped through the crack if you're even a group of individuals, right? Yeah because if you if you are dependent on each other and if you can contribute together towards a shared goal, I think that makes you stronger right there as a group or a team or from a group to a team rather. Yeah, if you find A legitimate and valid goal for all of those

people. Yeah, derived from the strategy because the purpose has to be right? It's can cannot just be any assignment that you make them mutually dependent of each other. It has to be valid for the right of existence of the organization. Yeah, yeah, interesting. I think I've seen that, let's say there's a group of people and for now, I'm going to call this a leadership group that if one of the aspects goes wrong, I was on the other people need to

step in, then I'm like, okay. Is a clear symptom of it being a team, right? Because if other people have to step in for that part of the organization or that part of the goal, kind of to be upheld. Then all of a sudden you are kind of contributing towards that common goal in that aspect. Yeah. But if you step in because somebody else fails and you take over job it's of a job and bit of responsibility. Now it's just more effort goes towards it. Yeah yeah then I get it.

Exactly right. Yes. That's what I've seen before. Yeah. Yeah and it's funny but I don't know it. Did you often see Incessant. How, how that, how an example, one of those management teams was steered? Do you see the difference between a team and a group? Mmm, not really. I just talked a lot about my expectations because I sometimes give feedback to my own

leadership. My own management manager, I've done that in the past, I still continue to do that, and as I expect you to operate as a team because I think we do have a shared goal, right? Yeah. The shared goal is X. Y&z, I expect you to move towards that together. I don't want to hear from Sanae a different story than from person b means. You're not aligned means, you're not actually a team. Yeah, I want the story to be honed. I wanted to be clear to, like, across-the-board congruent,

exactly. And I want that transparently communicate as well. That's what I expect. Yeah. And now what they do with that feedback that's not up to me. Yeah. But I tell them, this is what I expect. Yeah. And I think more people do so as well. Yeah. And then usually they take that to heart and they try to improve and sometimes not and then I'm like, okay, I'll tell it again and I'll say it again at some point. Yeah, I'm not there to say it anymore. Yeah. There you go up.

Thank you. Are you sometimes you can only go so much as well. Yeah, I get that.

No, but I've really enjoyed this conversation. I must say this is a lot of fun. It's it was this kind of what you expected. Yeah. I wasn't really sure what to expect because I'm not that much of a podcast listener. Yeah. So but I really like the conversation. Awesome. Is there anything you you still want to share? Not really, I think it's just it's just a conversation. I went away, it went and I also I just liked what we did time where we got cool.

Thanks a lot. Thank you so much as well for coming on. I'm going to round it off here. Thank you so much for listening. Everyone knew Logan found out. I'm going to put all her socials in the description below, reach out to her. Let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.