How to be a Great Public Speaker with Sabyasachi Sengupta

Hi, everyone. My name is Patrick akhil. How do you speak in public and do it? Well, that's what we cover in today's episode and joining me is sub eshu. Sengupta is the founder of method in my madness where they also have a podcast talks a lot about business transformation, change in Innovation. And besides that, he does a lot with public speaking stands on stage almost every week and is really good at it. I'll put all his socials in the description below.

And with that being said, enjoy the episode.

I was wondering since you do a lot with public speaking, like what was your first experience with public speaking? Why'd you get into it in the first place? Whoo II. Don't know if debate competition also qualifies as a public speaking. I think so. So I wasn't 10 years old. Yeah, 10 years old. So, you know, here's the thing. I was a very skinny small guy, I was very shy, I didn't have a lot of friends growing up. Okay, I was I was I was not An introvert, but I was just a bit reserved.

I'm, if I find my kind of people, I'm an extrovert. If I don't like completely, you know, I'm very guarded. I don't speak. So, that was my childhood till has pretty much 18. Yeah. So a lot of people from my childhood look at me on social media today that I'm speaking and this, and then they like, wow, how did you transform? How did you become this?

But I was always this outgoing person, it's just I need to Feel that connect, you know, the right environment and of course as a child you're self-conscious, you don't want to stand out. Yeah something that We crave to do as an adult. We don't want to do that as a kid. I was always loved speaking at home and I was very argumentative, very to the point. I was and growing up in a culture like indeed was never appreciated to haul back to parents and to family members with logic.

And when people cannot got you with logic, they bring the age but we are older than you. That really works because I'm your parent. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Because I'm your parent. So my brother actually, my elder brother channelized, this inner Rebel in me and cajoled me to go for a debate competition in good. In school. I still remember. The topic was is television Vice or a television is a good thing or bad thing.

Now, this is 1995 where a television was already The Talk of the Town. We didn't have Netflix or Whatsapp Or Instagram. So we were already discussing. How much screen time we spend on TV? Yeah. And I remember saying that television is a good thing just like anything. It has a vice and virtue vices and virtues. It's how you choose it it was it was very nerve-racking because first of all I think my teachers and my classmates were shocked that I volunteered. It was not willful.

I was cajoled and blackmailed by my brother. The wrote a speech for me who really pushed me to go and, and, and, you know, do it in front of the class which was very, very uncomfortable for me. Yeah. I was really, really extremely nervous when I did it, but I I also remember the feeling I didn't win but I do remember that feeling when I went past the first two lines, I went

completely off script. Yeah, I forgot most of the things but I kept talking, I kept making points and I was like, okay, I'm making Um, I can speak.

Yeah, I never did it again. I like hearing their presentation, but I remember like when I was eight Seventeen eighteen, the high school, our teacher sometimes gave us this impromptu topics to talk about and it was like a class of 80 people, they were not listening, you know, you're in the rebuilt and teens, you don't want to listen to the teacher and you like this disrupting the class and I went and I spoke I spoke about Indian snack. And you have to make metaphor up

with these things. Okay. And I spoke about how all the spices come together to make this beautiful. And if one of the ingredient is missing, how the food is so lackluster. And and we all need to stay together just like this to make, you know, bring our energies being our skills and make our class a success. Yeah, as I started speaking, I saw a pin drop silence. Okay, I saw the crowd was listening. Those 80 unruly kids, who otherwise would normally bully me.

Me, or make fun of me. And now, listening to me, are giving me full attention and when I was finished, they applauded for me, and then a cool, dude goes after me to speak. And they, he does not have the command over the crowd. He, they just they're listening to him. They're just follow up on you. Exactly. Yeah, but for me, it was like, I felt, like, words were my weapons, you know, as a very like I said, I was very conscious of how I look is very

skinny, very shy. Yeah. Didn't have I was very average and studies, I had nothing going right for me, except words was what my weapons? And, yeah, that's how I developed it. Of course, I didn't at that age, I didn't have the maturity to understand that, but I kept, nurturing it in college doing presentations. Going for more debates. And yeah, and they never stop talking. I'm still talking, I think I've answered the question already,

but I'm still talking. This is what happens when you do public speaking. No worries.

Not at all. I was wondering why your brother like when you were that young why was it so important for him for you to do that? Did you ever have that conversation with her? You know my my brother has been really the driving force, a big force in my life to who has noticed qualities in me that I did not know that existed. Yeah, and as pushed me to do things and I, you know, being sibling, but I think we both have similar interest.

I think he's also very good in debates and presentations and I think part of him, he lived that, you know, that energy. And that what you call that motivation? The for him through me like he want. I was living his passion for public speaking. Yeah, true. He was leaving that his passion

for public speaking. Through me, I am in a way, but I also, I think, you know, we've both had similar childhood, we've also seen similar rulings similar situations so he's a bit older than me. So he also realized that probably what I need those words as weapons to protect me. Yeah I like that a lot. I mean I'm the I'm the oldest of four. Yeah, like my second, my oldest little brother, he's seven years younger than me. Yeah no sister she's 10 years younger than me and the youngest

brother 16 years younger than. Wow. So there's quite the age difference. My brother's Danny is older than me seniors so you got that one. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Because always what I found like with the brother, that's seven years younger than me. I grew up with him the most right. I'm now out of my parents place, my youngest brother is now he's coming up, he's going to be 12 soon like there's a big age

difference there. So with the oldest little brother man, I really have trouble saying that in any case with The first one I tried to give all my knowledge to him, my all my learnings, all my mistakes and all my learnings I would try and be like, okay, these are the things.

And this is my advice and blah blah blah because I thought that would really help it. And yeah that also backfires because I don't trust me. I mean if you if you speak to my brother he would say I'd listen to probably 5% or less than

that. What he tells me? Yeah, it mistakes and learning from mistakes is really a I think learning from your own mistakes is the best way of learning. Any. Yeah, so you if you want someone not to make mistakes and already give a template this is right? This is wrong. Yeah, it probably doesn't work. People need we all need to make our own mistakes to learn. Yeah, I agree with that.

Now then I was like, listen these mistakes, no, no, no. You don't have to maybe only to make the same mistakes because being like, if you don't make mistakes at a young age, you will probably make them at older Ages which is has a bigger price. So it's a good to make mistakes mistakes out. Learning points. I think we, I agree. She's back then. I didn't. I didn't agree. Yeah, I like that nowadays as adults. Like, it's okay. And it's accepted that people

make mistakes, right? Yeah. And you don't really, how do you say that you don't punish them for mistakes as it gets? Sometimes you get punished for mistakes. Yeah, you should do that. Yeah. And that probably you take that with you as an adult, absolutely. And, and the world that I grew up in is the 90s, you know, scarcity was really a thing off. Opportunities jobs were not easy then you know, I remember speaking to my peers.

Now, when I speak to them at even at the age of 1415, they were concerned where they will work. What is going to be their career? How are they going to make both ends meet in a few years? I was really not worried. I had my own you know, I was the male version of Alice in Wonderland. I had my own Wonderland where I could Escape. I had my own nanny, I would go there. Be happy, draw and everything, of course, the world around me changed, As I Grew Older. But that that, real, that

mentality of really hard work. We need to really put everything, you know, was there and, and yeah, it's a, it's a very hard one to compete with, you know? So, yeah, that's that's the 90s. Yeah, like that.

There's always different kind of nature versus nurture things. I still think a lot, Has to do with upbringing. Yeah, but a lot you also still have in you write your brother. Might have pushed you to do something, but you already had it in you. Although, as you wouldn't have been, yeah, I'm sure I'm sure I'm sure because there's many other things he pushed me fucking didn't work out.

So that's definitely a thing. And also, I think what you said about a bringing we mentioned our friend, Alex, you know, we our common connection I remember, talking to him a few weeks back at a big Speaking assignment I was going for a big workshop for a whole day and I was very nervous that I'm going to mess it up. I mean, even though I'm confident in the work I did, I have already known those stakeholders but still it's a big one and I was really nervous

and I remember calling Alex and telling him, I think I'm going to completely mess it up. Yeah. What do you think? And he said like, okay, What story do you tell yourself you mess it up? Like that. I'm not good enough. I'm missing up every opportunity and everything and he's like, is this how you got treated? When you were kid?

I'm like, yeah. Every time I saw an opportunity go past me where I didn't get an admission to a school, or I didn't get the grades that I would deserve, or my teachers expected more from me. This is how I was getting treated that. I'm not good enough. I'm messing up opportunities, I'm not putting enough effort, I've only seen anger frustrations grief. Yeah. And his question was, did you like it? No. I hated it. Mmm.

So this counter question was then don't treat yourself now how you didn't want to be treated as a kid? Yeah. And that was such a moment of epiphany for me that like gee I've been treating myself exactly how I didn't want to be treated. Yeah so that is so Alex also that is so Alex. Yeah he's really amazing. Exactly.

That's really funny because I don't know if it was during the episode but he mentioned a few things I was like yeah that happened in my childhood and now I see that That I'm doing that to myself now. Yeah, basically. Yeah, Alex has this magic power to to to to take you back to your childhood. Yeah. And and and show you the mirror. How is it was still that the child? And you have, you've grown in experience in your life and everything but you still

functioning like that. I was insecure child and that's confronting, but also comforting because now you know what not to do. Exactly, you're aware. Yeah, that's the That's the powerful things thinking exactly the same metaphor. He puts a mirror in front of you. Yeah. And shows you the real, you met you met Alex through

Toastmasters right there. Was that old Master is here, I guess in the Netherlands and Amsterdam. Actually, and did you join Toastmasters before already, or was this coniferous danger? So I joined Toastmasters in 2010 when I moved to the Netherlands. Yeah, that was my first year, the first in the Netherlands is never easy. You know, this country, the Autumn the weather is fantastic, the food is lovely. People are warm.

Yeah, I'm being sarcastic. No I was like yeah but like I remember like october-november the Autumn really hits. You hard food and and I just missed warmth. I missed the sun and it was really really frustrating time for me. Also my brother was in the is in the Netherlands. You told me you do you love talking? Why don't you there's this group

of people that need to talk? Toastmasters, why don't you go and you know, meet them and join and very reluctantly December 2010. I went there and I was very shy to like, oh my God, these are outstanding speakers. What am I going to do in front of them and they gave me a, you know, the table topic that's like impromptu speaking. Still remember the topic they gave me. When was the last time you did something for the first time? And I said, speaking in front of a hundred and I don't Route.

I don't I've never done that before. And yeah, they even gave me a prize for best, the impromptu speaker that evening. Well, and then I never left. Yeah, this is 12, 13 years later, I'm still a member and, and also co-founded a club in Amsterdam. And and yeah, that's where I met a lot of amazing people including Alex. It's a great place to learn public speaking, groom in public speaking and also a lot of

leadership qualities. I have learned there because you There's a clip board that runs the club you have you you get mentored. You also Mentor people. So it is really safe space to try something new. Yeah, and I always tell this to people whenever they want to do something new in that safe, space is like doing something new. In Toastmasters is like painting a canvas, if it's bad, you can throw it away. But if it's good, you can use the same skills to paint your wall. I like that.

Let's beautiful Toastmasters. Like I've heard it before.

Yeah. I had a guest on. It was one actually colleague of mine on the manual pad off on. Yeah, I know him. You know, I'm of course those Masters. Yes. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. He's an awesome guy and I was obvious, he really pitched Toastmasters to me and I think about I was like he's really awesome. Yeah. It sounds like a really good deal but I always end this is probably like a personal problem. I have trouble starting sometimes right because I think

about get a Time investment. Like I take the responsibility seriously so I would go. Okay, I'll drag you next time. Gonna be hard for me to say no. But in any case, like how gradually did you start? Where you all in from the Star know? I wasn't. I mean like so I think a Toastmaster joining goes

through, you know, that like first. It's amazing. Then you lose interest. Then you get interest, it goes through ups and downs. But the thing that really hooked me to Toastmasters were the competitions, okay? We had twice a year competition in various categories, humorous speech, impromptu speaking evaluation which is about Uranus Speech and giving feedback, within five minutes, what can be done better, what can be done and international speech, which goes up to World Championship.

So if you have a speech, you can become a world champion of public speaking. Yeah, which is really about, is really cool. Yeah, haven't done that yet. Still on my bucket list, but I have gone as far as winning two times, the European level competition, which is the district in the speech, evaluation competitions, and in and second, and third prize in humorous. An international speech. Just some work to do there still awesome though. Yeah, but the first time you're

in a, such a big stage. I mean I remember it was Leon. I was competing. I was representing that magnet. The division was the Netherlands. Yeah. And there were several other European countries competing there and I was the new kid on the Block 2014, okay, it's electrifying to be in front of 450 people and it was humorous speech. So I was making jokes and they were laughing. I was getting Applause routing. Ting. Aye. It was surreal moment.

Yeah. And and for me that really got me hooked because I saw not the award actually, it's more the appreciation and also the journey I had from a club level to that level because you there are like at least three levels that you have to win before you go to that European district-level yeah it's you learn so much and you meet so many people you know you ask people for feedback as them to review your speech. You learn so much.

Nuances details of how you're using your stage, how you're moving, how your body language is looking how the punch punch line is going on, not working so many details at the same time. Sometimes even only 10 or 5 percent as useful rest is just someone's opinion is everything is opinion, you know. Yeah so you have to choose what you want to keep what you don't want to keep. And that learning was so rich that I felt like want to do this again.

And again that's really cool. I have lost a way. R times than have one. Yeah, way more times. That's one few times. Like, I've competed, it's vulnerable thing to really put myself out there every year lose, sometimes win. But like I said, I think the biggest takeaway is what the things you learn in that preparation phase, it's amazing. Yeah, the journey itself for sure, for sure. So cool.

That that gives you confidence to even speak outside that bubble, you know, like when I'm now, I mean Since when I started speaking professionally to go outside that bubble to complete new group and give a talk that confidence came from yeah, those Masters for sure. Yeah, I can imagine did you cuz standing on stage and doing something over and over and over

again? Like the only thing I can equate it to as probably because I listen to a lot of audiobooks is more, so like the comedic scene where people as a comedian, you go on stage, people, even record themselves and listen, move jokes around rephrase it slightly differently or look at. Our posture and their punchlines, and something like that. Is it comparable to that? Yes, of course there is, there is little bit of that imitation, sometimes you specially for prep prepared speeches.

Yeah. But the thing is like, if it's a very well renowned speaker, you know, then everybody can really associate that. You're trying to immediate someone that doesn't really go that. Well yeah, so the more authentic, you are the better it is. And I think one of the things I personally like in HSN. I've seen these speeches that win are so well-prepared that they look. It's been spoken of the cuff. Okay, it looks like the speaker just thought of it. It's coming from the heart.

It has no stuttering. No stumbling. No hesitation. Yeah, but it's not. Doesn't look too staged. The moment. Something looks staged. It doesn't touch. Your heart. Does translate know. So, I think I always say, that's the next level. It's like the Xiao Ling 36 chambers of Shaolin. It's like that. It's like the 36th step where you prepare so much that it you look unprepared. Looks you're speaking for off the cuff. It does not look staged. It doesn't look fake.

It doesn't look too. You know, rehearsed. I can imagine. Do you look at your own like,

recordings or speeches in that way? And like analyze? I honestly hate when I look my own videos, I'm like, oh my God, I'm so awful. I am. I am that? Where a lot of the learnings are? Yeah, for sure, for sure. But I think it did only Capper to watch Own speed. Is you exactly know? What was in your brain when you were doing that, okay? You know, like you know exactly what you were feeling.

You know, exactly what and sometimes things are things that happen are are not things that are in your head are not relevant to the speech. Yeah. So then you should I say this, I'll say this, but if it's so last year, I gave a tedx talk in the few University. I'm very happy with it went. Well, it got nice reviews, nice feedback. It was about organizational change and transformation. Now, I was the second speaker after the break, there was a break.

I got already mic'd up, so I'm now in my I'm getting into the momentum that I'm going to speak right after the first like the speaker, after the break. Yeah, I'm all mic'd up and everything. So I'm very conscious not to drop water but of course you want to use the restroom, drink some water. And then as I'm washing my hands, you know, I'm completely I'm zoned out the You know, you knew open the tab too hard, the water just splashes read a cue. And it's just splashed all over my pants.

And and my first reaction is was a very light cream colored pants. So it's a very busy of a watermark. It's a very, very, very more visible. Yeah. It's I'm like, why didn't I remember to wear a dark bed? Did they like, what the hell is wrong with me? And I'm and then I went to I'm on the first row. Yeah. And I'm really have a paper in my hand and I'm really trying to dry up my hand. So I when I'm on stage and this is going to be on YouTube, I'm not embarrassed by. What's up there?

You know, and I kind of them to stop because I need to dry up and I have no other way, you know, it's too embarrassing and it luckily these cotton pads, they get wet fast but they get also dry really fast. It. It I saw Oh, the video. It's all good.

But even when I watch that video, that's the first and perhaps the only thought in my head that I shouldn't have, I should remember how to open with these are so small details of things you should do, before going on stage that you only learn by making these mistakes the next time you know should not open the tap to like these things happen also at work but nobody pays attention, Okay? Yeah.

Whatever you know. But when you're going to be a recorded its kind of feels like a little big I can imagine. June, was that kind of on your mind as well when you're on stage. Like did it affect your performance you think? No, no, no first.

First know when I went on stage it was all good. That's good. All good. There are certain factors that you can't control so this was one of them. The other thing that was there was the person before me had a very inspiring talk and but it was about war. He was coming from a war-torn country and he was talking about how the people were suffering and how what painted the pain that the locals were going through. Yeah. Now that's a very heavy topic to go after because that's a that's

a, that's a serious topic. That's very moving. You can see that really touches the group. Some people have tears in their eyes considering the current situation. A lot of people also resonate with these things. Yeah. And then I'm going to go and start with some jokes because that's the first thing I do humor at the start and then I'm I was more concerned. And about that that I should not come across insensitive. Yeah. Make light of it. Yeah that you know that and

because it is stuff. It is. It is the job of the master of ceremony to change the mood. Yeah. But you cannot count on someone to really do that. Well but imagine somebody has a really personal story about something like this which is heavy and that's really sad and that's very thought-provoking and then you come up with something very silly to get get the audience reaction. You We'll come across extremely insensitive. Somebody who doesn't, you know

read the room. It's so it's very important work for me was to read the room at the same time. Keep in mind the YouTube audience that's going to watch it. So yeah it's a yeah that's hard to balance it's very hard to be. Can imagine like I did a want to do more with public speaking. Yeah I haven't I haven't taken you with me to those Masonic. I'll try it. July, what? I promise you when this episode is already been there, we'll see. But late last year, like my company does a textile

conference its internal. So we still have a few hundred people but it's internal ex-colleagues, you know? And also look at this is small. Stepping stone for me to kind of dab into and try it out. See if I like it in the first place and there's a talk it was five minutes. Like it's nothing thinking back about it now. And I was like, okay, like I know I'm gonna get nervous but I

also know I want to do that. So I prepared myself in a way that I was going to go first because you could say, okay, when do you want to go? So I can Solutely first, because I have done it, I'm done. All right, so I'm there and I'm like, okay, I'm going to be the first one there. We're gonna do this, and it's going to be fine. Like I had a serious topic, I prepared, but I didn't prepare too much like I feel like, that's my my groove.

Yeah. And then I was ready for it and they bring on this professional person. I don't even know what their title was, but it wasn't from our company. It was to warm up the crowd and they did a whole 20 minute session in the completely crushed, everyone's laughing. I was like, oh my God, the whole time 20 minutes up, like I have to go after this day. Because he was so good that I felt like I put myself down because of that and I also was like man these people just left

their ass off. They're not gonna laugh about any of my jokes now anymore like it was pretty pretty Dreadful. Yeah. II think this is a very common

thing that happens I think one of the things I love doing is being a master of ceremony. I love doing that role because you really can control and even manipulate the room, what is what is that wrong? So you are the one in responsible for it. Reducing the speakers and and you and I think the person who is doing that has the ultimate responsibility to set the tone. Yeah, so this person should know

what the topic is get. A little bit of idea what you're going to talk about and warm the crowd in a way that they are ready for something like this because it is as quite a switch from. If it's a you're laughing aloud to suddenly something very serious. Yeah, this this heavy, The time you get the room five minutes is over. Yeah, so you I think it's really the responsibility of the master of ceremony to bridge that Gap.

Yeah. And and and yeah and and her move the room in a way that is easier for the next speaker. Who's going to come interesting? I never saw that roll like that, but that is the responsibility that makes a lot of sense. It's a huge. I mean, any, any program conference call? Doris where the master of ceremony is inexperienced, you will see it in the energy of the group, you will see how it's people are tired or there is the this this could, there's a disconnect, some speakers are

doing well. Some aren't some people are leaving. It's really the job of the ceremony Master to make sure that every Speaker gets the right equal opportunity. Yeah. And and also the responsibility to bring the audience back from the last speaker. To this current stage and pass it on to the next speaker. That's really cool. I've done, I've done that on a conference and I feel like the variation of, like, serious topic versus funny versus something that's like really deep.

I think it's not there as much. Like there's not as big of a contrast, so I just winged it like a like here. I'm on myself. Also on stage. If something funny happens, I try to make a joke and then introduce someone new by, I really like that. Responsibility of tying the whole thing together, giving everyone an equal opportunity along the way. Yeah, it's very cool. Yeah I think I think you were to energy. I think you you feel the room II? You have a good try

understanding? Of what the crowd is feeling? The time of the day like after lunch or morning and and that's that those sensitivity a very important to, you know, play with the room. You can only like this a you can only break the law when you know the law. So you can only play with the room when you know the room. I like that a lot. Let's that's awesome.

But you went from The only thing I'm wondering is okay, what, what, distinguishes someone that is good on stage versus someone that's just on stage? Like what makes someone real good? I don't even for you personally. When did you get real good at this? You know, that's the funny thing. I don't know if you actually did see any speeches from of mine, too. I don't consider myself good.

Okay, I think I'm somebody, I really, I consider myself somebody who's learning every day, okay, because it's public. Speaking for me is like, diving, you know, you you're never learn. You're never done learning new things. You never done seeing something new, you're never done, exploring a new depth because it's unlimited. Yeah. And the moment, the day you stop doing that, you're going to, you know, become a one-trick pony. Yeah.

And that's that's really I think the worst thing that can happen to a speak or a creative person because if you And try new things. If you don't try new Styles then you're like you plant doing. Yeah. But I agree with that but there must have been something that you changed because you do reflect on yes and of what you're sure. I think I'm trying to think, I think one of the personal big milestone was to tackle my

Restless energy. I'm a very restless person and and also I think I do get ideas, a lot of ideas so Us with ideas. Make it deadly combination. Because I'm always trying to like stuff as much as possible in a Content like, okay. You know, and I always thought like why are people not accepting it but that's because you give it too much. You have overwhelm people with too many things, you know make it scarce I think to calm myself down and and trust that less is

more was really a big step. I'm still luck getting better at it. I'm not there yet. Yeah, I still whenever I have to prepare a talk and stuff I'm like I don't have enough content but it's really about trusting that less is more and things will flow. That's I think the biggest moment. Yeah and I think also when I started Co helping people a coaching or giving mentoring to other speakers, you also see things they can do better as a molarities also. And and now that you say, aye II.

It's a probably a big, a little philosophical answer, but I have a definition of success. Okay, I believe it is the ability to give away everything that you have from a good idea or money, or everything that you have to a person because you have the belief that you can re-establish. It all over again that state of mind is success or, you know,

you've reached somewhere. If you ask me, I think More than Applause more than any awards when I felt confident that I'm good at public speaking is when I have actually helped and quote somebody and in that process I got a great line. Oh you should try this line. Oh try this way style. If an idea has come to me, I have never held back sharing it thinking that no, no, let me keep it for myself. Oh my God, this is such a gem. I should not give it away.

I have actually given it away and and and when I I have done that. I actually felt like when I've seen them do that on stage and being successful that loud worked and people like, oh, that line that you gave me was so perfect, that worked. I felt like I grown as a speaker to be able to be confident enough to give away these, you know, the best gems because I know I can recreate it all over again. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I think that's that's the mindset.

You should have rights, especially if you're in a teaching role. Yeah, there's enough for everyone to go around absolutely. And if you Shake this Gemma you can do another one as well. Absolutely I think I think yeah what not that you asked me. I'm curious. What what would you want to see

in a speaker to consider them a good speaker for me? I am going to draw a lot of similarities to the podcast because the reason I got better at this, I feel like is because I started editing my own episodes. I would read listen to myself and be like, okay, I don't like what I'm saying. This as a response. I didn't pay attention. I didn't actually really Listen. Yeah that person said I was tired and like my body language like a lot of criticisms then came to light and I tried to be

good at storytelling. I try to start with a certain Story Circle back to it at the end, be concrete know where I'm going, but still take the audience with me. I feel like if I see someone on stage that can do that, start with a story go deep take people with them. Yeah. The eloquent in the things, they're saying exactly. As you say probably prepare a lot but you don't act like you've prepared a lot. Yeah, yeah. Naturally flow?

Yeah, I think that's what I'm looking for, in a, a speaker as well. So prepared, but not staged. Yeah. So I feel like and I try and I wouldn't say emulate, I feel like that's my preferred style

in a way but sometimes I feel like I'm not prepared enough like when I did those five minutes when I came off. I compare myself to every person there, every single person. Yeah. And when I thought their content was better than mine or their story had a better sequence than mine, I would think. Okay, that's what I can improve.

So then, Afterwards during recess people would say, like, I loved so, and so what you said and what we're glad they would point out specific things and I would be with those criticisms in mind. I would like, yeah. But the content wasn't that great. Like next time, I'll fix the content and I'll make it more sharp more, whatever the hell I had in my mind, that was a hard hard part. Looking back. Someone actually told me it's in, everyone's saying, good things. Why are you doing this to

yourself? But I know exactly that feeling because its first of all, whenever Done with the speech and people come and give compliments. And I hope I don't sound cocky, but I do get compliments. Every now and then. First of all, I'm very tired. Yeah, you know, because it takes a lot of out of you to even a five minute speech. By the way, I think it's tougher than half an hour talk because in half an hour talking of the room to be to starter to say a thing, twice, or even best place

to be over to, to come back. And in the end people remember, four five things, you know, so you can plant those gems. Where, you know. Yeah, but a five minutes talk has to be compact, has to be concise has to really have everything ticked and you have almost no room to you know, fail you know and the shorter The Talk, The more challenging it is. Yeah, I feel but still, it's very tiring experience when you're tired and people come and give you these really great word.

They were great and I want to run away. I'm personally want to run away but I did just don't have brain space to take anything. I would really prefer somebody writing an email that happens as well. Yeah that email I read that remit email is I really cherish it but in that moment I'm not I'm not I I tell people it's like when oil is really hot, you don't throw some you know vegetables in. It'll just burn it or throw it back. Yeah you need to.

And right now I'm that hot oil. I'm not in the capacity to taking any feedback positive - none. Yeah just say you were good. We'll get Get back to you, that's enough interesting. Like I don't know if I do recognize that I was drained and I actually I set myself apart. I went and sat in a corner by myself and I was like, I just need a moment. I pretended to be on my phone actually. Just looked at the screen, like, I need a moment, I need to be by myself, right?

I know because I was drained that feeling I have once taken a fire exit to the ninth floor of a horror show. Tell. Because everyone, I mean, I was getting really nice boys. I mean I want those nice words. By the way, please don't stop saying those nice words because that's lovely, but I just didn't have energy. I just like, pretended to go to the toilet to the fire exit to go to my room and I was like, like there, I was very happy.

Adrenaline was really high. But, you know, this is also a prep. This is also a performance, you know, you're doing an inverter so much people. Yeah. So you need a, what you call that like a moment with yourself from from being on stage to being in from, in in in in I love the crowd takes a recharge. Yeah, I some people do it. Some people really do it. I struggle with it are similar II need at least 10 minutes of me time. Yeah, yes.

Let me before I can, you know, I need to recharge my battery. I need to, you know, pacify the inner introvert, me and then give the extrovert meet the chance to correct? Yes. Exactly. I really feel the same in that way, but I like, I like the

question. You posed that, what do you look for when someone is on stage? Like, what do you think? It's a real good speaker. There's public speaking presentation, maybe even in a more office setting or just standing on stage. What do you look for? You know, it's like you can look at the details, you know. So last month I was at a conference of Toastmasters and one of my friend was the, the keynote, he spoke. He has been to the world championship. He came second and he spoke about.

Don't look at the notes. Look at the music. You need the notes to create a perfect music, but you don't need to. I mean if you focus too much on the notes, you'll forget to make the big impact. Yeah. And those are the words of other tell. He was the keynote. Speaker, is fantastic speaker. One of the best I have seen and I really great mentor figure to me. And I really think that's powerful, like, it's not always about the details about the body language, about the voice and

everything. It's really about the overall feeling people get out of your So many times I've seen that work. When leaders are giving town hall or giving presentations and stuff they are focused on the slides or how those slides are designed or how quickly they want to be done and move on what they don't emphasize is the feeling that they are giving to the group, are they giving a feeling of positivity? Are they giving a feeling of sense of urgency? Are they giving a feeling of,

you know, camaraderie. They don't have no idea the feeling that that they should give and then they are giving because in the end and we all take home a feeling like either, it is like you feel disconnect, or you feel really charged up or you feel super motivated. Yeah. One way or the other, we any any event that we have in our life we take home at least one feeling so might as well be more conscious about what we want to give through a speech.

I there was when I was getting to get learning public speaking and getting at it. I would look at details body language, how they're standing. They have hands in the pocket or how they are moving on stage, how the using the clicker, how the opening and closing are. But the thing that I really look for now, especially during covid x, i, I saw the need for this feeling, it's that how conscious and how deliberate are you with the with the impression and the feeling you want to give to the

group of people? Yeah. Because, you know, it, the classic is the during the lockdown. Somebody says, you know, in a very, we're not in monogamous sorry, we're not in a sorry, not monogamous, sorry in a very moment. Why is that in my mind, never mind in a very monotonous and a very, you know, impersonal way that, you know, we will we are

here for you. We are one big family, the feeling you get is and we got was like, yeah, you're just doing it to take a box, you don't really care about us, you just, you know, you don't really care. An end, the same text with so little more care could have had triggered magic. We could have created really good impact in the team. So I think that's definitely what I look for these days that how conscious and deliberate is the speaker with the feeling they want to give to the group.

Yeah. But that is, as very abstract,

isn't it? Like, how do you give off a feeling? I think I can do it but I have no clue how I do it. Well, it really Depends on the context of course. But it's not that hard. It is sometimes. Just choice of words, it is choice of ejectives. It's a choice of stories that you use. I mean, are you just presenting a like a data or just giving bullet points? Or are you giving a personal story?

I still remember in my first job in India, we had a bit of a reorganization was really early in my career like first three months and our one of the department head. Once was giving a town hall and he said, this is the, this is what it means. This this is, this is the impact that can happen data. And then he tells about, like, listen, I have been when I started off, I got fired from two jobs, but I felt really bad, but sometimes I look back. That was the best thing that happened to me.

Yeah. Because sometimes it's not about falling, it's about standing up. So if you feel yourself falling, take a moment but stand up, you know, I mean I'm paraphrasing now. It was long. Long back 2007? Yeah. But knowing, oh my God, he even the boss has gone through this and and not just he gave it as a fact, but he also described want into more into the feelings. How he felt when he was 23 out of job, fresh out of University, his peers were working.

He didn't have job, he felt uncomfortable socializing because everybody was employed, he wasn't how he was going through that depression. And then, you know, he decided to bounce back how hard it was. But in the end, he was happy because Job. He would have been only two steps up, but now he found something that really is passionate about that. That I think that vulnerable Story made us feel like you're not the only one who's going

through this, you know. Yeah. So it's also the personal touch that you bring to the story and that's more than facts and figures. You know, the emotions making people or allowing people to relate, rather right by making yourself kind of it. It's sometimes, it's sometimes it just choice of words. It's also, you know, like I mean one of the things we really take it for granted that if you are in a leadership position, you

must know everything. Yeah. But the truth is leaders are more nervous with public speaking than a junior analyst, or somebody or Junior consultant. Because for them, anything they do is great, your new kid in the block, you're doing something new, you will get applauded. Yeah. However, if you're a leader and you do, It, and you don't do it. Well, then you will be criticized.

So they are much more nervous to do to it right than someone, you know, they're putting the reputation out there now, so many times and I worked with people in leadership position, they are much more nervous, much more reluctant to try something new much more reluctant to make a personal, you know, reference because they don't want to be too vulnerable. And and and yeah they just so that they're way more nervous.

Yeah. So sometimes what you see as reluctance and and and and an air of indifference is nothing but nervous reaction but in my butt which comes across like you don't care about us but it's just they're nervous.

Do you also look at like if it's your own leader or like a leadership group when they're not as great in public speaking, like when they're great at public speaking? I really enjoy. And I'm happy that they're kind of the leadership team or part of the, but when they're not as great in public speaking, I do feel it, reflects something on them now. I don't know what that is, but I do feel different. I'm not so sure for sure.

I mean, II agree with that. I mean, and I, this is probably a very unpopular opinion, but I really believe it's not that scary public speaking. It's actually a wonderful skill to have. It is a, it is a low-hanging fruit. Trust me. I'm trying to learn driving, it's way harder. Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly. It's way harder than public speaking. So I tried rowing. It's way harder than popular. Oh, Owens do. But come on. Well wasn't for me. So I can tell you.

It just needs practice and I think it's really about trying every every opportunity possible. Yeah. Trying every day or not every days, probably extreme. But every week or so. Getting up on stage, taking up every moment to wherever you can speak to take it, they can help even conversations with colleagues. Make it a speech, you know, instead of just being few words and I think it's not just for

public speaking for everything. I think a consistent mediocrity is better than sporadic Brilliance. Yeah, I think if you consistently practice it, you'll get way better than people who have this one. Great speech and never spoke again. Yeah, I love that, man. Based on that.

I think think that's everything that went through my mind. And I want to round it off here actually. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks a real good reflection of how to speak in public, right? The different tool sets that you can use kind of to leverage and get better. How is not about perfection? How it's about consistency? It is really like a lot, see ya? Because stuff, then I'm going to round off here.

Thank you so much for listening. I'm going to put all savi's socials in the description below. Check them out. Let them know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you in the next one.