Diversity, Inclusion and Work Culture in Asia with Priska Burkard

Hi everyone. My name is Patrick Akil. And for today's episode, we covered company culture, diversity, and inclusion. And even work culture in Asia, because my guest worked there for a few years before she co-founded Tech face and she's currently managing director over there as well. Prisca Burkhardt, I'll put all her socials in the description below. Check her out. And without being said, enjoy the episode into your past. And I mean, I saw you When and

did your job at Hong Kong, and even Shenzhen for a few years before, I don't know if it was before you came into the tech space or when it was during a song, a completely different culture there in Asia, can you tell us a little bit about like that, gradual step, that you make towards the tech, pause, and even that your career steps in Asia?

Yes. So basically, I finish my education, like I did the part-time bachelor's degree here in Switzerland and for me, was always the goal or the idea that I Work abroad because I'm always fascinated, especially from the Eastern culture and this different mindsets and culture. That always fascinated me. So, I was reaching out, I was working at the time for UBS and I was reaching out to my bosses saying, like, I'd like to go abroad.

Is there any kind of opportunity for me to go abroad, and they helped me to do get this job and in Hong Kong? And I think that, for me, it was, it was for the whole time.

I was there was still every day I had this Interaction with a new culture and every day I learn something new about different culture and it doesn't matter which which industry you're in. If it's tagged or any other industry that the culture is very important, very indicating on how you work in the industry or have you work with all the people and it's enriching as well as like learning new things, not only on the task but what your people with your

teammates are teaching you with your clients, your customers, or whoever you work with 40. Teaching. It's very, very inspiring, very insightful and gives you lots of idea of doing things differently than you did before. Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. I, I like to envision myself. Also, working abroad especially in Asia just because that the culture is seems, I don't know what it is. Maybe a lot of the media have seen but it's very attractive to me. The kind of experience that

because I think it's completely different. But what is like the like a few of the biggest differences? You've seen especially in the workplace there. And one big difference for me was that as an employee, as a team member, you always more or less listen to your team leader and you never oppose. So, what your team leader is telling you, what your boss is telling you, that's true and you just accepted you say yes and you do it. Whereas we and Switzerland we used to like challenges or

challenge our bosses as well. So when we had team meetings and we discussing any kind of task or what, What you do next project. So everybody was invited and able to State their voice or their their insides.

This did not happen in Hong Kong so often so that was something I had to realize pretty early and the good thing was I had a boss and she was working for a lot of European companies before and then for a few years as well and she was used to that kind of working and she was seeking for this kind of working Styles.

So she was asking me to Give opinions and Opposed her statements in the team meeting so that we can find the best way for everyone, but with the other team members they were struggling with my Approach is, what is this? It was Wasn't in the beginning, it wasn't so easy and I had some fights with team members as well because of that like the we were clashing, but it was like at the end, it worked out well, but it was in the beginning, we had to find our way.

How do we work together? How are we different words? How can we make this work? And that's for me was pretty interesting in the beginning to see how they like really with the balls come to you and say, it tells you you have to do X. Y said, you just say yes and you do it even if it's not working. Ting. And then later in my career or later in my time in Hong Kong, I was also leading a team where I had again, didn't quite realize that this is the way you work.

So I told my team certain things to do and they say yeah it said yes. And they went on to do this and then like two weeks later you come up as like so what's the status on this task? And they were like, yeah, it didn't work. Just like yeah why didn't you tell me? Oh you just told me to do that and that's it. So you really To go after than theirs, did it work? Why didn't it work? Can we do something different? They not coming up from them by themselves. Telling you, what would you told

me to do is not working. So it's it's a big cultural difference there. And it's interesting to work this way but it's a lot to learn. You need to realize oh they think differently. So yeah, make sure you keep that in mind and make sure you adjust also to the way they used to work.

But at the same time also being Being able to give them an Insight from another point of view and giving them tools and methods, how they can do their Works differently, I thought was as a leader as a team leader, an interesting challenge for me and it's a place to learn as well. Yeah, I can imagine that. I mean, as you describe the, I like that, you said, it's the opposite for the Swiss culture. It's the polar opposite for the Dutch culture as well. Like completely not challenging

your boss. Those decisions. Yeah I think people here do it automatically it's so like inherited in the culture in there that coming into a space where that is not the norm. That's going to feel very, very strange, very unfamiliar. I guess, where? Exactly. Are you totally imagine in that way, then as well. And then I talked about I'm sorry good. I was also studying in Hong

Kong, I did my master's degree in Hong Kong, and also there was kind of funny to see because he had and we had two teachers. From from Asia, and teachers from Western Corridor like Europe and the us. And it was also the way they taught and the way they did their exams and everything was very different. And it was kind of funny that whenever I had a western teacher migrates, were much better than when I had passed away. That's really crazy.

But what I was wondering is specifically back to the workplace when it comes to diversity. Did you see the same challenges that you see back in Switzerland or even in Europe when it comes to 80s? Or even the biases that there are when hiring and no, because the one thing in Asian culture, which is very similar, I think here also in Switzerland, but a lot of people don't realize it

yet. It's a lot of going through Network. So you need like relationship is One thing in Asia, that's very important. And so if you have if you know the right people, it's easy to get a job because you just tell the people I need a need a job or they help you to get into the right position. So it's all about relationship in Switzerland. This is the case as well with the Network's. The problem is people in Switzerland.

Don't like to network so much. So it's like, it's very tight-knit Network. So you have certain groups like the biggest Network existing. In Switzerland, from my point of view is the military. The only guys are going to the military. So if you've been in the military, you have your network there, you know, certain people from different kind of industry. And this is how you get also chops as well in Switzerland. The second door Eastern, the

university. So if you've studied, you have your network from the University and then it's your company. But outside of this a lot of people don't build a network. Whereas in Asia, this is very important. If you go to a networking event in Asia, you can stand there the whole evening and every two minutes, there's another person coming up to you, if his card and introducing himself or herself and talking about, they do giving the car to its later, to go on feel like spreading your cards.

Making sure everybody knows you. So it's a lot about I'm having this network. So, this is definitely

different. So it's, I think it's different way of applying for jobs and in Asia, and the other Thing, which I saw in, when we talk about diversity is in Asia, it's very common that you have a nanny for your kids and especially in Hong Kong, Hong Kong is a very rich country or like, the special Administration administrative region of Hong Kong China, and they have a lot of nannies and made from especially Philippines, their live-in. Maids.

So as a woman, you're not, this is not an issue for you that nobody's looking after your kids. So, If you can go full time back to work after three months maternity leave and you will be working from nine to ten whatever it is require because you don't need to think about when. Do I need to pick up my kids? When do I need to feed them or they sake? Do I need to stay at home? That doesn't exist there and if you don't have the made, you have the grandmother because

that's traditional it's family. So it's it's very normal that your mother is taking care of your kids. So that makes it more diverse in the Regards to gender diversity. So, you see a lot more women in leading position than compared like in Switzerland or maybe even the rest of Europe. Yeah, I can imagine that. I mean, if I think about my my own upbringing, I'm the oldest. And I have three siblings.

So we're for home basically. And my mom would move Heaven and Earth to make sure like we go to school. She would pick us up or arrange someone to pick us up, right? And she would do everything or at least everything with the family. And and even with me, since I was a little bit older than my siblings, but But I couldn't imagine even growing up with a nanny or having someone from kind of an outside family in there.

So the fact that is completely normal in China, like, that's such a cultural difference and inherited in that culture. That's so, so hard to change here. I guess that stigma of mothers actually going back to work to the work force for full time. Again, that seems really hard to me, even like a cultural shift in there. And on top of the culture, what you also have in Switzerland, is the social structure I would say. So we don't have like, day schools in Switzerland.

You go to school from like 8 to 12 and then you come home for lunch and then you go back to school at 1:30 until 4:00. So you don't have to structure, you don't have childcare like pizzas, you don't like you do have kids, just but they're not soft subsidized. So you need to pay them yourself which costs a lot of money. And these are things where you see in a lot of other countries, they just exist. You have day school. So that you go into school at

eight in the morning. You finish a 5 and you're entertained as a kid during this time and that doesn't exist here. So you have no other choice than staying at home. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I mean I recognize and I see

that the diversity level as we want, it is not where it is right now, right? We're far below that I do like that, it's getting more awareness. Because I think before, you can change something, you need to be aware first of it existing in the benefits that it can bring you. But for me the next step in kind of Shifting that that's a cultural shift or that's an organizational shift and those out of experience, I know those take the longest like that is not something that happens

overnight. That's going to take a long, long time before it can shift in and of its own. So what would you say an organization can do to kind of take that first step in creating that shift for their? Own Organization for others. I think it's what you said. It's about a warrant awareness, so you need to be aware. First of all, who is your Workforce? You have like yeah, do you have it all a diverse Workforce or not? And if it's not diverse, you're

not going to change culture. Why should you change the culture of something that works fine or that knows each other very well. And this the same, there's no need to change a culture with most of the time, they want to have the diverse culture because it brings benefits such as more Innovation and Revenues for the company. So the first step is really being aware. Where are we standing? How can we like, what, what do

we want to reach? Do we want to have a diverse Workforce and then what does a diverse Workforce need to be able to function? And we should also not think about until you're saying okay if you want to have a diverse Workforce, we want to have more women, women have kids. So we need to have a family-friendly environment and

just look after parents. You don't have trust parents your Also have people who ask for more time, or for the different work style, because they maybe have another hobby or they have other needs, they want to fulfill. And so it needs to be clear that it should apply or has to be

applied to everyone. Who is part of the workforce that if you want to change the culture, or if we want to be able to offer more flexibility, for example, that needs to apply to everyone and of course you can do it individually that you Okay, every person gets what they want, but where is the common in vilna denominator, how can we offer something everyone can take benefit for from as well and find this one, and, and start working from there and don't expect to change it in.

As I said overnight, it's not going to happen. So take smaller steps on smaller changes and see how it works. Be open to try and error. Try to change something. See how it works. And if it doesn't work, That just don't say oh it doesn't work, we're not doing it. But think about why isn't it wasn't it working? And What needs to change to make it work? Or maybe it's something you tried and you say no, that's definitely not going to happen in our company which is

perfectly fine as well. But understanding why it's not happening would be very important in this case.

Yeah, yeah. I like that. A lot when it comes to kind of those flexibility options, that you gave the biggest one and I think the latest one is like a work from anywhere. Or even work from any time, right? You can do your sports and exercises in the morning or in the afternoon. It doesn't matter to us. As long as the job gets done at the end of the day. That's like flexibility, why, something that an organization can offer. But I also like that you point at, like, where's the line in

there, right? Because you can't tailor fit each and every person's kind of social life or their personal life also in their professional life. So you have to figure out what those commonalities are. But then my question would be like, how How would you figure that out like are you gonna do a poll with the organization and they can select like it's gonna be democracy or because people can also feel excluded in that way.

Yeah, absolutely. Yet I mean we are all about democracy or in Switzerland but I guess it would be just important that you have to talk to your employees. You need to ask them, what do you need? And I'm not the question of do you. Eat now a whole stay off or do you need different kind of working hours. It's like what do you eat to be able to live your life and and someone that they're there for sure people they say I want to have this 825 working hours.

I want to go to the office and have my desk and work here from eight to five. This is what I want and others will tell, you know, I have other things to do and I want to start later. I want to come in maybe just two days and then Take all this information and see how can you pack this together. And as I said before, start with the small Port, maybe you just start with one team and build something around this team and figure out how it works.

And then slowly starting getting in everyone on board and showcase, that changes are working before you try to push a change to everyone in your Workforce. So I think it's very important that you get your Workforce on board from the beginning. That you talk to them, you explain to them, why you do certain things, that you make them aware that you're not sure if it's working.

So that often it happens like your management comes and it tells you this is how we do it and that's the only the correct way and then that I think that's very bad for a company because it hinders also Innovation or different items that's to chip in and give their opinion. So I think it's very important for management. To say, hey look, we have an idea. We talk to you. This is the feedback. This is what we would like to try. Of course, we are not sure if

it's going to work. So let's try together and see if it works out and if it does not work out that you can stand up as management. Say yeah we fucked up so it didn't work out but let's try something new. We learned the lessons we may be figured out and different way to Sir to offer flexible work time for example but I think it's

very important. Get your Workforce on board in the beginning, let them have to say, even make them aware that you might not be able to adjust to everything what they saying, but give them the opportunity to say giving their opinion as well. Yeah, absolutely. I mean that transparency and openness that you described.

That's what I really appreciate in kind of my management or my leadership layer in that way. Right. We're trying this because we're trying to solve this as a problem. Do you guys see this problem? Yes or no? These are the options. These are the ones we pick. And if it doesn't work out, we

can say, well didn't work out. We gonna figure out why it didn't work out, and we might pick one of the other options or we're going to forego this, but at least that communication transparency and openness, like not sweeping the failures under the rug, but actually being open and vocal about it. I think that that speaks volumes, at least to me when I see that. I really appreciate that openness and transparency, and I'm starting to expect it more

and more as well. And if it's not there, Then, yeah, that's a signal as well. When it comes to the diversity,

in the flexibility of an organization, right? I did a poll on my LinkedIn on this. You want to work with people that are similar to you, or more different than you. And a lot of people said, kind of a balance in their right? But if you look at your own work force and you see a lot of people similar the to you, then probably also your hiring process is completely tailored

to that, right? Hiring people that are kind of like minded for those reasons, but if you want to shift that Then it really starts also with your hiring process, right? For the people that you're hiring, they're going to look at your culture. And if they don't see that diverse culture that they want, they might not join your organization in there because of that.

So then you get into this vicious cycle that your organization is not as diverse, but then it also can't attract diverse people because they don't see themselves in there. Like, how can you break out of that cycle? More from a hiring perspective. And you have to start very early

in the hiring process process. So you aren't hiring in different places and this is what I experienced when I talk to companies and Terry tell me I we won't find many women applying for our jobs because you want more women and there's like yeah you where do you post your child's? How do you post them? And if you keep on posting them in the same location in are in the same websites online or LinkedIn or Groups or whatever you getting the same response.

So you first of all, need to reach out to communities groups. Usually don't reach out to reach different people. So it starts very, very early in the process but that doesn't help either if you then have done in the latest steps when you have all the in to use, if you still have the same people

doing the interviews. Yeah. So you can bring in the diverse group of applicants, but then you have to interview and they basically tell, you know, Oh, it's not a good fit for our culture, that's what they exactly went down. The line is you're not the same as I also don't come to okay. Father, it's it's very say I think your poll shows this. I think that the reason why it's so balanced is a lot of people would love to say I'm looking for a diversity or want to work with different people.

But the reality is Or not doing it consciously when they hiring. So it's like, I'd like to like I'd like to lose weight but I keep on eating chocolates. That's not funny. I like that analogy. So I think this is it's very important. That not only saying I like to do something, but just doing it, but it's very hard because it's very hard to discuss with someone who is not your opinion. Yeah, and it's like it's the confirmation bias.

Find that. So it's much easier to work with someone who agrees with you all the time, but this is not bringing any changes or any Innovation to your product, to your company and it's hard process. I mean, I experienced myself for me, everybody has this issue. You wouldn't spend, you don't want to spend the day with a group of people. You don't agree with what they, the way they live, for example, their opinion.

But it would be very interesting to get new Sighs to get New Perspective and maybe start looking at processes products in

a different way. And the yeah, I think it's hard work but it's if you want to change it in hiring process you need to be aware and sure that you do it in every single step and you have to measure it. So especially I, when I talked to companies, when they say we not getting the applicants or we don't have a high gender diversity is like yeah, where does it stop and If most of them I must say, it doesn't even

start. So I have, yeah, they have to start with reason like way or they resources. How do they attract Talent? Where do they attract talents? What's the process then in the interview process and who is making decision, the decision at the end and then once you're higher than the work there, what's how long will you stay with the company? Are you as a woman? When you say like when you want to have the gender diversity and

do you do? Those women within 6 to 12 months after hiring, or are you losing them at a later point in time? So this is also the whole retention topic is and also very important interesting. Yeah. I mean the the hiring in and of its own is a challenge already, right? But once you've hired the right amount of people or the people that would increase your culture and enrich and enrich the

diversity in there as well. Those people also need to have the opportunities to grow within that company, right? Just as everyone has If there's no position for you and you're

looking for the next step and your company can offer that, then you're going to look outside, right? And I think I don't know how it is for women specifically, but do they get kind of those same opportunities or do they are they like for gone for other people in that way as well? No, they're not getting the same opportunities. And here is when we talk about the differences really?

Because yeah, another thing that I hear a lot from companies or from managers, they tell me or we treat all the same and I'm always telling them. And this is the biggest problem because we are not the same and so you can't give everyone the same process because we act differently. And I know from myself when I was still employed and working for a big Corporation I wasn't necessarily the person who went up to the manager. Say I want to have now a

promotion. Yeah. But this is this is what women usually don't do. They rather think away. I work hard. I do my best, I bring everything into the company and then I will automatically I will get my promotion. This does not happen, especially not in the bigger company so you have to really be very vocal about what you do. You have to be in the important meetings, everybody needs to know you that you get this promotion.

And this is this is one of the reason why it's not happening but the question is and I'm not agreeing to this, do we need to change ourselves to get the same opportunity? So do I need to do a knee really as a woman? Not being local? Do I need to change myself any more vocal about my by performances to get the promotion? And I say no we have to remain as we are. We are different.

And this difference makes us what we are and be shouldn't change and become more like The man around us to get them the opportunity to be promoted. And that's a very important aspect that's usually overlooked Indica companies. I don't know much about the smallest. I have to be working in smaller companies so often so it's rather difficult to say but I wouldn't wouldn't be surprised if it's the same in the smaller companies.

Yeah yeah that's interesting. I mean I do recognize that when it comes to a promotion or a salary increase I push I do not wait, like that is my kind of default mode, but I know my girlfriend works at a bigger company. That's not her default mode. She's way more reserved. She's like I did the work, the right people know me, I deserve this and when it does or does not happen. Yeah, that that's where the difference is, right?

She didn't push for it, she shouldn't have to push for it, but those processes are kind of tailor made for the people that push for it that are more vocal that say, well, I'm frustrated for x y&z So then they get hurt but then you overstep like the other people that do put in the work in that way. Like that's a complete process change. And then I would think it starts with awareness for people that

make those decisions, right? That they are aware of the culture that exists and the differences of the way people work in the way people vocalize, if they're happy or not. If that awareness is not there, then I don't think those processes are going to change by themselves.

They won't. Yeah that's that's really difficult than because, I mean, from my personal experience I haven't been in those positions where I get to make those decisions, but if you're unaware of something that is completely happening and should be within your control, it's hard to step out of that, right? How do people how do, how would

those processes change then? Because those people are even aren't even aware of the things in the culture that they're creating in that way? Yeah. I think it's an important thing. You just said is even if you're not a management position and you're not part of the process, you still be able to change this or being part of the change as

well as an ally. So if you like for example if you're in a meeting with a group of people and you realize and it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman, someone is not able or is overheard is speaking up, but nobody is taking on what this person is saying. Being this person's a lay-by, Thing for example, but this is what she said for before. Why don't we keep on what she's saying what she was saying or

why don't we ask her again? So, like having this La shape and supporting those, you feel like are over hurt. Even if you're not the manager and I think that that's one thing, which I feel is very important, which I also see is happening now, after having all this discussion about diversity, we need to start discussion discussing inclusion. And that's like the video. We need the diversity as basis, but we need to inclusion to make it grow at the end of the day.

So we need to have everyone on board. When we talk about divert her City and not just saying, well, we have a minority group, is it women? Or is it any other group that is not as present, as in the male-dominated area as man, but we being able to include everyone in the process. And not just say, yeah, whatever we do is just for a man, a minority group and we just

taking care of them. But what can I do as being part of not the minority group to help including them in my Workforce as well as the minorities. Need to think about how can we get the inclusion of the bigger the majority group to make this really happen to make this change happen? Yeah, I agree with that.

I do think though, like when, when there's tight deadlines and when Their stress, and there's a meeting involved and it's usually the same people talking, right? So then you kind of, because of that pressure in those deadlines, you overstep that inclusion and you're like, okay, we're kind of in an operational mode. We need to get stuff done and you don't take the time to include everyone in those decisions and those opinions then because those need time in that way, right?

You can't do that as well. I think, or it's challenging to do that when things are really crunching deadline noise and I feel like almost in every organization that I In that lines are always there and the time is always the issue. Yeah. If you fall back to you usual pattern, if you're on exactly. But you can train that before. I mean, you can think about how do I react in stress and how can I not react this way when I get into a stress situation?

So, similarly, stress situation and being more aware of how you're reacting and Ida saying, this is the time, it's kind of funny. I was reading an article recently where they say that diverse and teams.

Are able to solve problems. Better than McCain is team and they did, they did a test like they research that they put people together and they had homogeneous team, they couldn't solve a problem, whereas diverse people, they were faster in solving the same problem so I mean, yes, time is always an issue, but I think even there, you'll have a good argument when you say, well, if we bring in everyone and being able to hear from These side their input. We might find a better solution

that saves us time as well. Yeah I like that a lot right because then time you looking either short-term or long-term right. If taking the time right now is going to give us the better solution down the long run. Then it will save you that time because you make better decisions because of that. But if you don't see that if you have kind of that shortsightedness in you you're like okay the fastest decision. So we we fill the fastest and we

learned from there, right? Those are two completely different paradigm. Times and being aware of that, that result right more brains, more diverse brains, think of better Solutions in the end can save you time down the long run. I really liked that dish in there. Yeah. Absolutely when it comes to

organizations right let's say we do have diverse organizations. I've been in a team where I was sitting at a lunch group, it was like one of the first jobs I had and I was counting like each and everyone's different culture or background and we had like eight different nationalities at the same table and was like, that's a Be cool feeling because I learned a lot from there. So for me, when I'm looking at jobs or when I have looked the jobs in the past, I look for that kind of multinational

diversity in there. But it's kind of hard to see from the outside if an organization has that, because all we're going, has a shins preach all. We're diverse organization and we have these social structures in place, and it's better over this side. But how do you actually poke holes through that and see that either from the interview process? Process or from the outside. In that way, when you're looking to apply for a job, we actually offer workshops to do that.

And okay, I think it's easy. So there are two steps. Like the first one is before you apply for a job, you can investigate company and you have thanks to social media, a lot of resources to do that. So just go on LinkedIn and see how is the company presented there and then different things. Like first of all, are they talking just about the products and services? Or are they talking about their people as well? So how do they communicate to

the outside world? And when they talk about their people who are they, what are they doing? What have they reach? Are they from different level from different backgrounds, and ethnicity and so on, then you can also investigate the people or who are working in the company. So if they have connected them on LinkedIn to the company. So you can see, what are they, what are they actually doing the whole day?

Are they posting anything on? LinkedIn about the company or are they interested in other topics? Are they active and the more active, they are, the more are they connected to the company and feel like? Yeah, this is a company I work for. I'm happy to work here as well. And then you can, of course, you can see, who is it? That does that also is usually more like the managers, is it? Everyone on the and on in the company and so on and then you have also Instagram.

You have Facebook is dying a bit or Tick Tock as well. Companies are starting being on take though it's really there's a lot of opportunity to investigate and then, of course, their website itself as well. And I mean, it's for me, it's always so funny when I see, when I visit the website of companies and they talk about diversity and how important that is. And then you scroll down and you see the team and it's all like, white guys index, only thing people.

Yeah, your divers. And then I mean this is a complete turnoff for me and or even their management board, it's like everyone looks the same Same. There is no dice, not even a gender diversity and it's for me it's really this is a sign. You can talk as much as you want about. We are diverse if you're not showing, it is so like I was at the Europe Forum yesterday talking about Millennials in Europe and they say, show me, don't tell me it's really show me what you really do.

You can talk as much as you want but you have to really show me. So this is the first step you can do investigate the company. And then when you're in the interview process, Says he can think about questions you want to ask. So like we do when we do these workshops with company about what's the culture. So we have I spend 23 hours with

the company asking questions. And I'm asking myself, if I ever would apply for this job, I would ask exactly the same question but unfortunately, they wouldn't have three hours time from a previous interview with these. Are the questions I'm asking is like, who is your like, who's your hero, who is the person people are? Looking up in the company and like these are questions you can think about before like note down this question set not have anything to do with your job per se.

But can you some indication on what's the cultural for example? How do you, how does the management communicate with the stove? He said, just like the usual letter they sending out, or is there really an open door policy? And if they say, yeah, if you have Open Door policies, like give me an example, when you use their own, And or policy for yourself. So this there are questions. You can ask to understand if it's just the the lip Services by.

Yeah, we are diverse and we write it on our website. But in reality we aren't or are they really diverse Exactly. I like the example of, I mean, even LinkedIn because the involvement of people like a company doesn't get to decide that, right? It's your LinkedIn profile. You get to decide what you like and what you don't like. But if you really like, what a company is putting out there, you can see that you are aligned with that company.

From an outside perspective, which then means probably you really like the company. You like working there. So from an outside perspective that must be a good company to work with them as well. And when it comes to that interview process, I've been a lot of Reviews, I've talked to this in the past, I did interviews to get better at interviewing. And one of the things I learned was has to be a match for both sides, right?

So when it's your time to ask questions, ask those questions, take all the time that you can get asked how long you can, you can ask those questions and ask as many as you can, to get that information to see if this is the workplace that you would see yourself in even when it comes to diversity and inclusion and openness and transparency because I think, but this is my personal opinion. I'm wondering what your take. This is what is it? As well, I think organizations

need to distinguish themselves, not just by compensation. But what they offer next to that when it comes to their culture, their work force their way of working and what they offer for the people with regards to the match of kind of their professional life and their personal life, I think the organizations that do that. Well, our organizations that are going to make it to the Future and organizations that cannot do that. Well, I'm not going to make it

for the long run. Absolutely, I fully agree to that. There was another study I read recently about Millennials and they're looking more for diversity than salary. Say they would reject the job offer. Even if the salary is better, if they don't show A diversity in the workforce. Yeah. And that's just one part. The other part is also, how can I grow in a company? And this is what I hear a lot when I have coaching calls and they asked me. So, what could be a good company

for me? I want to have a company. I want to work for a company where I can grow as well. I have opportunities to develop and either become a leader or go into a different direction, and this is what everyone not just women are looking for. And if you're not able to present that or to offer that, you going to lose big time in the future the company. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

One of the lingering questions I still had, was you touched on networking early on when it comes to the Asian culture? That it's a bit more normal in there that you get your jobs even through those relationships? Ation ships and your network that you have, but when I look at my my personal Network it's now getting bigger and bigger but early on I didn't want to pay attention to my network.

I didn't know the value that it could bring to me and I mean I'm partly introverted partly extroverted but coming up to someone in like a networking event. I didn't even think about going to networking events because I was like nah that's just not not for me. When it comes to the network. In the value that it can add. What would you say? Or what advice would you give The focus on when you're a bit more early in career, when it comes to building your personal Network, right?

When you haven't gone to the Army or two new to University and you don't have that default Network through there. Yeah. I mean, I'm very similar than you. I still hate Network. I still hate going to, you know, I love to go to events where I have to speak, because then it makes it easier for me because everybody comes to me after I know you. Yeah, exactly. So that's the easiest way.

But anyway, if you're not in this situation, early in your Career, you're not even you're not, unless you're really an expert in something yourself and get invited to speak at events. But just focus on events with specific topic and don't try to

go to networking events. They're very, very Broad and open so I tracting everyone, but make sure you go on a topic so you could be, for example, e on that development or maybe some and it's very specific, AI topic and I'll pee if it's in the tech area of it, make sure you pick a topic. That's very I think because that makes you do ready easier to have starting ground for discussion, so you can always go up and to someone and say, so what brings you here, what's

your relation to? For example, a, if you go to these kind of events, it makes it a bit easier to talk about. Whereas, when you have this big networking events, you don't know what the other people are doing. And I always feel it's hard to go to someone else. So what are you doing? Like, if you have this topic makes it easier. You also events where you see that they have an interaction part.

So, for example, and they say, okay, we have a speech and then afterwards, we have workshops in small groups and it's also easier to get the conversation going. So you have to first step and a lot of people, and this is the mistake I did as well. You just Network within your own company, especially when you work with bigger companies. So, just like, try to get out of your own company.

And if you want to stay Within, Company try to get connected to people with outside the your usual circle of people or the team that area will you working with. So I think that's that's something that needs to be done to really open up your network to other peoples, I think events. And then outside your team and there are actually a lot of interesting platforms giving you the opportunity to network with people, you would usually not me like this. It was one a condom member

whereiscliffy. Called haven't been attending it and but it was a platform where you can sign up. And then you can and have some meetings you sign up for two meetings, with anyone from the platform where we have some similar interests and they just set up the meeting for you and then you meet them at lunch time, for example, for 45 minutes call and it was very interesting to see that it was never a dull meeting. It was never very versatile there thinking like well what do we talk about?

Let's talk about anything and it went from one topic to the next to the next. It was always very interesting and this kind of meeting. So there are platforms out there where you can do this kind of thing. So search for these to broaden your network and then use LinkedIn as well. I mean, LinkedIn is perfect place. I feel everyone who is on LinkedIn and rejecting any kind of invitation on LinkedIn is questionable for me, because why are you acting?

And the only reason, the only good Important advice, I give here is, you always have to give a good reason or and message when you reach out to someone on LinkedIn. So, if someone just sent me a request without telling me why they want to connect with me or without seeing obviously that we have something in common. I don't accept these kind of request but if someone is very genuine coming to me saying, hey, interesting profile, I'd love to follow you.

Can we connect here? I'm open to connect with anyone. And also, they can send me afterwards a message. Maybe ask for a half, a quick chat over coffee online, coffee or so. I love these kind of meetings even if it's just a one-off meeting. But it's it's not portunity to get, you know, someone else and to get to know one other perspectives. I think online networking is equally important as offline, networking? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I love the example of, like, finding common ground when it comes to kind of the those offline networking. Working moments because then you already have conversation starters without that. I completely agree with you. It's really hard to come up to someone and be like, how was your day? Are you doing completely? Yeah, there is one thing at one other option but that's very

seldom that's happening. If you have the chance to get the list of attendees or if you see that other people are attending the same event, try to reach out to them before the meeting. And say, hey, I've seen your attending the event, very interesting. I would love to talk to you about X Y set at the meeting, or at the event. Let's checked there.

And then when you see the person, if this is possible, then you can go up and say, hey, I reached out to you before, the makes it easier as well to break the ice.

Yeah, yeah. That's a nice one. This guy, I really love how this conversation flowed kind of getting an Insight in your personal history working in Asia as well. And your take on diversity inclusion and Company culture and how we can shift it to the Better is there anything that's missing that you would still want to add on top of that? No, I think we talked about a lot of things that we call it a lot of guys. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm going to round it off here.

Then I'm going to put all her socials and links in the description Prescott Burkhardt. I hope I pronounced your name correctly like that all the way towards the end, but I'm gonna put all her. So she's in description below. Check her out. Let her know you came from our show. And with that being said, thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next one.