Hi everyone, My name is Patrick Akil, and if you're interested in developing people next to technology, this episode is for you. Joining me today is Esther LaRue all the way from Joburg, South Africa. She's a competence lead and software engineer at Hexaware Technologies. And we covered finding your strength as a software engineer as well as growing as fast as possible within your career for you as a person and with regards to your skills as software engineer.
So enjoy on a more day-to-day basis. How many people are you helping with regards to mentorship or from a, let's say, management perspective? So in Amsterdam I have a team of about seven people. Yeah, that's non project related. And then project related, it depends it on the requirements at that stage, but anywhere from 2:00 to 7:00. And so on. And how, let's say I were to be new in your team, how do we start off kind of this talk of personal development or any type of conversation?
How do you usually start off with someone that's new in your team I'd. Like to ask you what's your background and what do you like most about your job? What's your favorite part to try and see if the part that gives them job satisfaction if we can have more of that for the specific person. Sorry, no worries for this specific person. So now what do you like most? And then where do you see yourself hypothetically in five years or 10 years time, but also where do you see yourself in a
year or so? Yeah, With personal development, I think it's always for me been challenging to see, OK, where do I see myself in a longer time horizon? One year I can do, one year is like close to Max strategy basically. Yeah. So where do you see yourself in one year? I don't. I still don't know.
I've always said that since the podcasting, I've had more and more conversations with people that do developer advocacy, which is kind of software engineering and how I would translate it. Also part of the marketing side of it, being more present online, working on your personal branding as well as representing what a company does and communicating that to the best you can. I really like that as a role in its essence and I haven't done that yet, but I've always admired that.
Then engineering management is something I already have kind of a a responsibility for currently and that could grow. I could see myself growing into a role that does more of that. And then lately, but I've kind of scratched that itch. It was always kind of product management as well. And I've been doing that since January, which has been a lot of fun. But I really miss one of the hands on like software engineering things. So I'd say one of those 3, Yeah, Yeah.
What about you? My answer always changes. I constantly constantly re evaluate and adjust. But currently in one year hopefully on another project. Not because I dislike my project but just because I like change. So new project, new team, same team perhaps but new challenges. So I feel like I really like change and and challenges, but it's always always good to try something new. Excuse me? Yeah, no worries.
And I feel in the, the project that I'm currently on, the challenges have kind of worked out themselves by now. So, so that's short term where I see myself. But I'm, I'm very happy at the company. We have a very, we have an awesome culture and we are very people focused. So especially when we are hiring, first making sure that the person would be a cultural fit for the company and then after that looking at the technical skills. So it's the people, people are
great. So I would like to stay with those people for now at least. Yeah. I mean, when it comes to developing people and having those, let's say, one-on-one conversations, for me, I always see two types of people, people that know where they want to go, and then it's a bit more easy to break it down and see how you can get there. But for people that don't know usually, how do you help them figure out where they want to go or help them figure out where they, yeah, I guess in essence
where they want to go? So if they are not yet sure where they want to go, so we have the check insurance biweekly. So then keep the conversation going every time checking in. What is it that you what? What do you like most? Where do you want to grow and where do you want to? What do you want to learn more about? So it's not something that you figure out in one session. It's an ongoing process and the
answers also change. So this for now, it might be that I'm interested in learning a bit more about this text tag or learning how to work with these type of people. But then after a while, if you are constantly faced with the question about what do you want to do next and you think about it more often, then the answer becomes a bit more clear.
The more you think about it, the more you you put energy and effort into to into it. So re evaluating, having this discussion not the same, not just like where do you want to be in here every time, but just what do you want to do? What do you like? Tell me your favorite part of the last two weeks. What did you struggle with? What challenges did you face? How did you overcome them and what did you learn and how? What was the your favorite part of this process of what you learnt?
And then take it take it session by session. That's great. Once people find, let's say, a step on the horizon, doesn't matter if it's a year or let's say five years, how do you help them then break it down or make sure they are on the path to achieve whatever they aspire to achieve. So if it's in the same track, then it's mostly get more experience or do some certifications or courses. But sometimes people don't want to stay on the same track. They maybe want to try a new
role. So then you need to kind of try and identify the overlap between the existing role and the neuron to see what they need to focus on to improve. But also see if there's an opportunity where they can work with someone in the role they are aiming for, to work with them. See how they are doing it. And then doing that for a little while, asking them if they can pick up a task here or there there to to try it out to see if it is what they are interested in.
And then if it's going well to to do more and more of that. Do you have an example of that of a person that switched from I'm assuming software engineering to something else because I wonder how adjacent that is. So well, it will still kind of be in the digital realm, digital strategy realm. So let's say going from front end engineering to product design, working with the designers or even just going like from front end to back end
or to full sack. So working with the security engineer on your project, if you want to, to transition to security, asking them why they are doing the things that
they're doing. Asking if you can listen in on the meetings they're having to see what they're actually discuss, discussing day-to-day, what are their tasks, how they are handling it and how they strategize and think it out and why they are doing it. So even just listening in or view viewing would help you see is this what you want to do, learn from them and then say, OK, I see you have this task. Can I do it with you? Or can we do like peer
programming or with the design? Also having the same conversation with your designer, what is your thought process? How did you get to this layout? So learning from their experience and then but depending on the project or the team or the set up, if it is allowed in that specific project, if you can pick up a task you're or there. So then it would be the less complex, less challenging tasks. But just to get into it and to do that until you are confident
enough to take on more. When they are, let's say confident enough to take on more, Would they then let's say start out from scratch? Because that's usually what I fear is if I, let's say people are a senior software engineer or more on the front end and they want to go into product design, what they have to start from scratch. Well, they don't have the same experience.
So if you're a senior software engineer, you can't suddenly be a senior designer because the experience there is a mismatch. So you do have experience in the industry, but it's not, it's not the required experience for that level. So you know, you might have to drop A level or two, but that's why you first tried out to see if it's really what you're into. Are you willing to take this this drop and then evaluate it from them? Yeah, yeah.
I wonder how much people have done this, let's say sunken cost in. Well, I'm a senior front and engineer now and if I were to have to, I'm kind of starting over. I hope the passion would kind of outweigh the sunken cost there. And if this is really something they want to pursue, they actually do so because that would, in the end, probably make them happier and what they're doing on the day-to-day. I think more and more people
have the guts to do it nowadays. So this is now just from a perspective of people changing from careers that they had to software and willing to be a junior and build it from the ground up even though they had five to 10 years experience in the previous industry. I'm seeing that more and more nowadays. So I think within the tick, I think if you did that leap, you might reconsider if you want to
drop down again. But I think people have the guts to do it if it's their passion, if that's really what what what they want to do and pursue. I had AQ and a recently and a lot of the questions were actually from that perspective.
So other people that are just starting out from a career switch or just starting out from a traditional educational background or even self-taught in any way, what would you advise to people that are just starting out, let's say, in the software landscape when it comes to growth and personal development? That's a broad one, I know. I'm just thinking about my answer because it might be
contradictory. I would say get a job where you actually for the first year or year and a half, you don't have a very good work life balance for the reason that you can get like four years experience in one year and you can get to work. Try to work at a in a full stack role if possible so that you can learn. This is not specifically for software engineering so that you can learn front and back end security, dev OPS, QA.
So if if you are starting out, depending on where you are in your personal journey as well, but if you have capacity to at that stage take on a bit more than what you want than what is feasible for the rest of your your life. But to set that year aside and then try to get as much experience as you can, because then you can also see where you want to go from there. So it's I don't have to be 1
yet, but a couple of months. Try everything out, see what you like, what you don't like, and then try to pursue the the department that you that you feel most fulfilled in. Yeah, interesting. So having a kind of wide starting point to then zoom in on later and go deep. Yeah, that's not how I I mean, I really started off on the back end because I had an interest in front end, but back end was more comfort I think as well as it just intrigued me more.
And then when I was comfortable, when I felt like I had the depth and I didn't really want to go deeper. And that's when I looked outward when it comes to let's say software technology in the 1st place. But even before then, I came from the operational side where I chose to be really wide in whatever responsibilities I could get more from a responsibility side and not necessarily from a technology side.
But I do like that starting out wide, you can learn what you like and even also important what you don't like, because then stay away from those. Yeah, that's that's very important. How did you find the transition from operations to back end? So I had done, let's say more data science oriented things on in university. And from the operation side, I was really frustrated because I would flag things that went wrong in production.
It would go to a different department and I would sometimes even be able to browse the code and be like, OK, is this it? This is the issue. But I would never know. In the end, I would always have to chase and ask and I could never fix it myself or at least I wasn't responsible. So then I told my manager like I'm I'm missing something in solving things because I only identify then it goes to someone else and it's my responsibility to keep things up and running
and make sure things are smooth. But then in the end if I'm not creating whatever we put to production, then for me it was the point. It was kind of strange. And then back then DevOps was coming up in more of a term and awareness and I found myself in that terminology and I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to do both, right, create as well as make sure it runs smoothly. So then from there, my management, my manager put in a good word and I also chased other departments.
And in the end, I found myself in a position where they were all external people. I was one of the only internal people. I had a new manager and they said, basically transfer as much knowledge to Patrick as you can so he can do it basically because everyone here is quite expensive. And in the end, from a consultancy perspective, you also want internally to have a smooth operation so you can leave better than you kind of came in, in the 1st place when it came to then figuring out new
technologies. It was a real ramp up when it comes to knowledge and growth because I didn't know a lot of things. It was like, OK, have you worked with GitHub? I was like, so they tried in university, but I never got the point. And then they explained it to me. I said, God, this, this actually makes a lot more sense. And yeah, with that, we started pair programming a lot. I think I learned the fastest through there. Someone would just walk me through what I needed to do.
And honestly, first few times I had no clue where I was or what I was doing. And in the end we would do it. And I'll be like, man, in my head it was a lot harder. And I still don't know exactly what we did, but in the end we did it. So those small victories that took more and more kind of want and eagerness. And eventually, yeah, I grew from there. It was a lot of fun. I looked back at that and it's very fond memories. Yeah.
What about you? Because I know you have this kind of passion for developing people in the 1st place, but I also know you came from a more hands on experience. How was it transitioning to more of let's say team leader leadership role for you? I really enjoyed it. I think it's the my favorite part of my, my job at this stage. Well, you start off small, start off with one or two people and then see how it goes.
Take it from them. But also the best way to learn is also from other people and how they do it. So but it's, it's trial and error. You try it out, you see how it goes, what works, what doesn't work. But the main thing that I tried doing was listening to to what my team members are saying and what they that what they want. But I also found that it helped
kind of have a plan. So not just not just the check insurance, but kind of at, OK, let's look at your strengths now and do so still have the regular check insurance, but then do one strength per session or then to look at, OK, we are now doing performance evaluations. So right now feedback is very important. How do you feel about giving and receiving feedback? How do you identify feedback?
So also something that's relevant to the situation they are in. So to try and identify is this something that they are are confident in or not confident in? Do they want to to practice that or identify how to do it. So sometimes I would also ask them, OK, now I'll go and if you are not comfortable with feedback or identifying feedback, go now in the next two weeks and try and identify the feedback that you would give
people. So it's it's practical and they would come back and give examples and then we'll see, OK, can you improve it? Do you need to improve it or is that great? Or if if they were confident with feedback in general, we would just, that wasn't necessary. So trying to get ideas from what they need to apply practically and if there is a gap, try, try to do that. So also re evaluating and adjusting what we are talking about throughout the year.
And so far so good. I'm I'm enjoying it at least, Yeah. That's the best. So it's it's trying out, seeing what works, seeing what's relevant at that stage. Yeah, I really like that you said. Also, getting comfortable asking and receiving feedback is a thing. And it's something I haven't even like thought of because I thought for me it's so normalised, asking for feedback and giving feedback that I wouldn't think of people not
being comfortable with that. So I really like that you actually take the process and go one step back and ease them into a process if they are not comfortable yet. Or at least just ask how they feel about feedback. Because also in organizations with performance cycles, it's just, yeah, it's a thing. And if you're really not comfortable with it, then it can be very awkward.
It can just be a thing of bureaucracy or going through the motions and then you lose the essence and value that feedback gives you, which is a shame. Feedback is one of the most valuable tools that we have, we just need to utilise it correctly. Yeah, exactly. How do you go about feedback? Because what I've seen in organisations, it's usually two points and they all are prior to performance cycles. All of a sudden everyone gives you a form and asks for feedback.
Whereas I've set myself kind of a goal to do it more often, also outside of performance cycles. And for me it's easy because we only have one a year. So I I've had this urge to give out feedback but then other things prioritise and I just don't do it. How do you usually go about giving and receiving feedback? So I was relatively new to mobiquity. Now actually at that stage, I joined a project that this was just after COVID and I'm from South Africa. So I I'm completely remote.
The rest of the office, the rest of the team can meet in office once a week or so. But it's still people are not really going back to the office yet. Yeah, so we had our day today. We'd all did our work, but I've, I kind of felt that we didn't have that connection within the team yet. So everyone we would communicate and collaborate and everyone were team players. But I, I, I just felt we weren't like deeply rooted in, in the
team. So I had a chat with my competence leader at this stage and he actually recommended that I talk to one of the other members in the company and they they recommended speed back. Speed back. Speed back. So it's like speed dating feedback. Really. Yeah, so that that sounded very interesting. I asked a bit more about it. So it's actually like you would
do speed dating. You have two minutes to introduce yourself, the other person has two minutes to introduce yourself, and then you move on to the next person. But now you do it for feedback. So you can do it in a set up where you have tables. But since we were remote, we had a team score with breakout rooms. So beforehand, everyone had to prepare just two or three points of feedback for each person. It had to be constructive and timely and specific. I can't and actionable, but with
a focus on being kind. So whatever you are saying, wrap, wrap it in a kind way. So this actually, it worked very well because this, in this specific scenario, what happened was we highlighted the things that we valued about our colleagues. And then if you know, OK, they value that. I'm always friendly in the meeting. Then on a day when you don't feel really up to it, you remember, oh, they're actually value it. So, so let me greet them in a
very friendly way. So it made everyone feel more valued. And also the, the constructive items contributed to the project's success. But it was, and it's quick, it's two minutes, 2 minutes. So 2 minutes to give, 2 minutes to receive and then going to the next breakout room and just seeing how that affected the the team's atmosphere and connection also made me really understand the value that we have in feedback. So, so I really like doing that every now and then with just
within a team setting. So it's everyone UK. It's like almost a 360 review. So that that's also, that's a nice approach. And another thing that I also sometimes try to do within my project team is to have an internal retro, but with I really like interactive ports or
surveys. So everyone can add words to a word cloud and it pops up and you see how it grows and have a couple of Ice Breakers. And then as soon as everyone is relaxed, they are completely honest and open about things they they like, things they don't like. And if they once they realise it's a supportive environment and relaxed atmosphere and it's OK to say what they feel, then a lot of constructive items comes out of it. Nice. I like that a lot.
Actually. I was thinking of doing new Ice Breakers because I really like those you mentioned kind of when that group of people came together. And I think this happens often. The relationships are a bit more surface level, which might sound hard, but for me it also makes sense because it's just a group of people that are bunched
together. After that kind of speed dating feedback round or even maybe a few of them, did you feel like a more deep rooted connection and with regards to relationships? Definitely. Yeah, and that's kind of easy to do then, no? Or at least a more faster way to
build connections. Definitely one thing that I also realised on my project team that that really helps is to especially if it's remote to just even now and then have a session just well, it first started with if we get a new team member, then we just have a round of introductions. But sometimes it can just be so professional. Just I have X years of experience in this tech stack and I have this experience and this experience. And then like, OK, let's do another round.
But now perhaps tell us about one of your hobbies or what, what type of sport you watch. And then the first couple of times it would just be like, OK, I like to watch soccer or football. But as you also do that more and more than it's, you get the answers get elaborated and, and then in a while, then suddenly you see, OK, people stop making jokes or people just start laughing more. And the whole environment and community is just so much more
supportive. And and the team, the collaboration that comes out of that is amazing. Yeah, that's crazy. That's the most valuable thing. I think at the end of the day, it's better to work with people who you consider like close with or friendly with than just a superficial, I think, colleague at the end of the day. But how do you then balance? Because this is something I'm, I want to do team building continuously. I don't just want to have team events.
So then what we do is every Sprint cycle, we have a retro and prior to that I do an ice breaker and I sometimes I didn't come up with any ice breaker. So an ice breaker was come up with our ice breaker. So we can do this continuously. But then sometimes I'm like, OK, how much time do I actually allocate for this? Because they can go.
If everyone is really, let's say, conversational and friendly with each other and we know each other, then everyone also wants to give each other space to have that conversation and that dialogue and share. And then I feel like, do I need to cut stuff off? Because otherwise we can just talk the whole day with regards to the relationships we have now. That's for me a challenge.
So what we like to do within our front end team, we also have a check in for the entire team, not MSN every two weeks. Yeah. So we also tried to find a balance between using these sessions for upskilling, but also just having a check in, seeing how's it going with everyone, just so that you are everyone knows everyone. It's also how's it going on your project and how's it going
personally? But now what we also recently started doing is just to just have one session allocated to just like Ice Breakers. So just every now and then just having a fun session. So I think it, that's actually a nice order that we have now. So one session just for check insurance because you don't want to have only 1/2 an hour for a check in because you're going to do some, some presentations or
anything. So we decided to rather just have and a dedicated time for checking in with each other and then a dedicated time for upskilling and then a dedicated time for Ice Breakers because check insurance help for the team collaboration and team spirit. But the Ice Breakers also found and they actually contribute just as much as as the check insurance as well.
So. Odds in a project, it's difficult to find find the balance because you don't have the dedicated time for Ice Breakers, but otherwise just put it in there. Yeah, yeah, right now we just go with it and sometimes I feel like, yeah, we need to, but yeah, we're doing our best. Everyone does enjoy it though. I, I see the appreciation because it's a fun moment,
right? And usually it's on a Monday, so it's also a good way to have a laugh, talk about what happened in the weekend and actually start. I feel like I'm, I'm also moving away from like traditional scrum. I don't know if it's specifically Scrum, but in any case, stand up can only be like
Max 15 minutes. I've noticed that since we're not in the office or not even in the same country, sometimes stand up can span out and people actually want to get to know each other and there's room for more conversation that is also outside of work. I think that's completely fine. I think that's just how this way of working has evolved.
And at the end of the day, if it makes a more stronger team with regards to what they can say to each other, how they collaborate and are more effective because of that, then yeah, it can be way more lenient. And I don't really care about what what's in a book that says it needs to be a Max 15 minutes. If we get more out of it the way we do it, I like the way we do it, yeah. Also doing that for Oscar, Master, some of our riches. He also just changed it to a
round of check insurance. How's it going with everyone? Tell us a bit about yourself. And it's very interesting if you're working with someone, not specifically in your department in the project, but you, you check in with each other. You, you talk about work the whole time too. Then suddenly, oh, these are your hobbies. Wow, that's actually very interesting. And then you realise, oh, you've just been talking about work.
Yeah. And work is such a big, large part of your day, you might as well enjoy it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you touched on you being remote and I'm assuming some of your team can also be remote, as well as how people, for example, introduce themselves or tell them a little bit more about themselves. Have you also noticed like cultural differences that are there that you need to accommodate for?
Yes, definitely. So within our Amsterdam office, since it's so diverse in the Netherlands and so many cultures, it's the the Amsterdam office, it's kind of the same approach. Everyone is very relaxed. I also mentioned previously that we had a very big people focused way of approaching interviews first, checking if they're a cultural fit. So within this office, not so much, but working with some of the other offices, there's
definitely a a big difference. When I joined the company, I received a book, The Culture Map to kind of prepare you for working with different cultures or to mostly just be aware that there are differences. So if you're aware of it and you notice that the neutralize, OK, it's not that that person is perhaps angry or it's just their way of communicating.
So if at least you are aware of it, it's easier to to identify what it is that it's a cultural difference and it's not their personality or something that's going wrong. So so being aware of. The move? Is that better now? Yeah, sounds good still. OK, sorry about that. No worries, I completely lost my train of. Thought being aware of the cultural differences and accommodating for that.
Yes. So if at least you're aware it helps, but then starting a project or working with other cultures or other offices, the I think the most important thing is once you get together to find a way of working that everyone is comfortable in. So that does take adjusting and tweaking until you find the sweet spot. And you might need to evaluate that constantly. But having an open discussion about it, saying, OK, this is how we normally do it. How do you normally do it?
How do we want to take it from here in a way that everyone is happy and that also that helps because then everyone is aware of the differences, but we also find a sweet spot and everyone, it works, it gels. What? What differences in way of working have you seen that? Because I can't think of any concrete examples. Well, the one thing about just talking about your professional career and not, yeah, that that was for me the biggest one,
yeah. Yeah, that will make sense to me. Yeah, I've seen that one play out as well. I guess I don't know, maybe it's, it's probably nature, not necessarily nature, but nurture, maybe how education goes or how people see themselves professionally. I know in a, in a more, let's say Eastern cultures, what can be actually more overtaking with compared to life, Let's say if we're talking about work balance and life balance, it's different than how we have it more on the
Western side of things. But then, yeah, if you, if you go too much, too much West to the US, then it's out of balance, maybe even at least to compare to my perspective is what I've heard. I've never experienced that. I just heard stories. And it would be interesting to experience such a culture. I think it's a learning opportunity in any case to see it from the other side. Well, there was actually a big difference between the South African culture and the European culture as well.
Yeah. Everyone is so relaxed. Yeah, Nothing feels urgent. In Europe or South Africa? In Europe? Oh, OK, so that also took some adjusting, but knowing, OK, it's not that people in Europe are lazy. That's the yeah. It's a work life balance. Yeah, yeah, that's hilarious, by the way, because it can still be lazy and people just say no, it's work life. Balance. So that was at first my initial thought, but then I realized, no, it's, it's the it's, it's the way of life.
Yeah. And now I love it. Yeah, that's good. That's funny, you mentioned strength in or at least having conversations about people's strengths. And I think I know better now, but previously when people would be like, OK, what are your strengths? I know weaknesses. Weaknesses for me are easy. Maybe this is also how I was raised because if I have to give feedback, I can give very concrete negative feedback, but positive feedback is hard for me. So maybe this is the same with
strengths. But in any case, how do you help people figure out kind of what strengths they have? And even then, what is next with regards to personal development? I have a tool that I like to use. It's called Gallup Strength Finder or it's part of the Clifton Strength Finder tool. And according to their research, there's 34 strings and everyone has these strings, but you are stronger or in some of them, so they are more natural to you.
And these skills identify how you think about things, how you feel about things and how you approach them. So they they have one test that you can do and then afterwards you can either get all 34 in order or you can just get the top five. And I really like this. My husband and I actually did this before we got married as kind of like a pre marriage preparation for understanding each other. And it really helped me to understand him better. And I think he also understands
me better. And I thought I really understood him, but that just made so much more sense. For example, you, you get the test and you need to say if you lean towards A or B in a question, but you only have a, a limited amount of time. And afterwards, the person conducting these tests. So we did the test online, but we had someone that went through the results with us and she asked my husband, did this test frustrate you? And he said yes, he wanted more time to think about it.
And in his strings, she, because she asked him specifically, because one of his strings actually brought this out, because he, he, he needs time to think about things, to analyse it and to pick the correct answer. So even though he was frustrated and he felt it wasn't enough time, it was apparent in his strings that that's how he approaches things and how he thinks about it. So that that's, that's, that was very interesting. But then you get your five strings and I feel they're very
accurate. I none of these strings were actually strings that I would consider saying, ah, I'm strong in this beforehand or this is one of my skills. So for me, it was very interesting. And then I thought, OK, that could be a fun exercise. Let's let my team members do this and see how it goes. And everyone's strengths vary so much. So you really realise that even though there's 34 strings, your
unique combination is so unique. And what you bring to the table is completely different than the rest of your team members. And how you can actually use this in team settings but also in your personal life. So then I like to discuss one strength per session. OK, so first giving an overview, so the tool itself has can give you a video, give you an overview about the skill or the strength.
And then you can discuss. They also have some points about how can you use it in your day-to-day, but also how can you manage someone with this approach or your strength? And then what to look out for, because some of the, the strengths there's for example, if you are an includer and you want to include people, you actually need to be aware of that. Not everyone always wants to be included and there's not always, it's not always a time and place
to include someone. So you need to strategically realise when to do this and when not. So it also gives you like be aware of this, but use your strength like this in your team and in your personal life. So I really like that. And then you can actually go and practice it. And as I said there, there were answers that I didn't expect or either would would say about
myself. But after I actually got these results, I realized that is this is actually how I think about things and how I approach it. So so I like this too. Yeah, I would love to. I think I'm gonna try it out after. I'll put in the show notes as well for people that are interested. Is it free to use? Can I just or do I have to have a? You buy a voucher, Yeah, or a code? I can't remember the exact prices. I think it's like €50 or
something. Gotcha. Yeah, I, I wonder because specifically when you said like, I learned a lot about myself and also my partner, like I think I also know my partner, especially when you get to a point where you're like, OK, we're getting married.
Yeah. But it's really funny to have kind of those new insights when you said 34 strengths, 34 sounds like a lot to me. But yeah, when you look at then the combination of what you're good at and even, let's say the, the amount of how good you are at specific skills, I get also the kind of uniqueness of a person in a specific team. When you talked about inclusion, I immediately my mind went to someone that's currently in my team.
I'm like likely. So I would also be very interested in, let's say the, the skills of my team and see if I I would have identified them beforehand or I can see that in behaviour. I really like that, it's one of the tools I think I don't utilise, but I might now because I think it could be a lot of fun. Do you usually introduce things that you like try out first, maybe on your personal life or by yourself in a team?
Because I want to be hesitant in what I introduce because otherwise if people are feeling like, oh, we're moving this way now and or there's a new thing here, it can also be kind of instable. Yeah, I definitely like to try things at first, perhaps on myself, on an approach. This is how I thought about it. This is how I'd break it up. As an example, yesterday I had a talk at the conference. So earlier this year we could submit topics to be considered
to, to have the talk. And during this process, I actually, I really enjoyed the process. So I thought this is fun and I learnt a lot about myself and about things I'm passionate about during this process. So I thought this could be a fun exercise as well. So now with some of my team members, those who are interested, obviously not everyone is always interested in everything, but those who are interested, I followed the same approach saying if you would now present at a conference, what
would you like to talk about? Go and think about it because you need to think, do you want to present something very technical or do you want to look at more of a soft skills approach or? Identifying for, for example, impostor syndrome or or what would you want to talk about? You, you can take any topic that you want. So go and think about that. And then later you go, OK, now I have my topic. Now I need to find a title.
After your title, get an overview, get your key takeaways, break it up into sections, break it up into slides, add a script, then practice it. And then you have a presentation, practice it in front of mirror. See what you need to change, what you need to do, gain the confidence. So that's the the approach I followed. And the first part about picking a topic that was fun.
That's where because you think, ah, perhaps I would like to talk about this and then later, no, perhaps I would like to talk about this or I can combine this and just the research and the introspection that actually goes into what do you, what do you think is important? What lessons did you learn or what would you like to share? So I really enjoyed that. So that's something that I visited myself. Then I realized, oh, this is really fun. And now I'm trying out with my team in this as well.
That's great. I like that a lot. I think about picking a topic for me is actually not the most fun part to be honest, because I have like, OK, is this going to be interesting? Do I really want to talk about this? I, I don't have, let's say, multiple options. I'm, I have a hard time picking one. But then when I actually have one and I go through the motions of, let's say, creating the content, then I'm like, yeah, this is great.
But everything beforehand, maybe it's my trouble starting things in the end. But yeah, I've really enjoyed this conversation so far. Esther, this has been great. I'm going to read this and back to it and think of some of the tools I want to incorporate in my own way of working. Is there anything you still want to share before we round off? Nothing that comes to mind, right? Now, all right then, thank you for joining us. It's been a blast and I'm going to round it off here.
Thank you so much for listening. If you're still here, leave some comments in the comment section below. I'll put Esther Social there as well. So thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next.