Hi everyone, my name is Patrick akhil and for today's episode, we covered the cloud security podcast. Yes, I have my friend zone from the cloud security podcast. They were in Amsterdam and we managed to make this happen in person at the very last minute, we cover how they started and how they've been working together while being married with this whole podcast thing, High highs, and low lows and we cover obviously a little bit of cloud Security in between there
as well. She'll be bhattacharjee. And I she's Rajan. I'll put the socials of both of them in the description below. Check them out. And without being said, enjoy the episode. That's where the headphones make sense. Absolutely. You can hear yourself going off the mic. Yeah, that way I'm yeah. So I guess to what you were saying Tuesday, Wednesday, we have the conference and Wednesday evening. We have a meter with the tech fashion M, okay?
So we didn't, I was just telling your colleague earlier that the intent was not to kind of like what you're doing over here with a podcast. Not to be too technical. Yeah, so we have to, I guess to talks there but the intent is to come in at, in your best tech fashion gear. It could be Our conference swag, it could be your favorite keyboard. It could be something that you got from a conference. So just some bring something
which is fun. Yeah. To the the M basically just so it doesn't make it like a boring. You go. You come in or a shoe shop at Riga talking and after that basically go for drinks and just leave, we didn't want to do that. So that's why we changed it to. Let's. Do a tech fashion meet up like a DJ in the end as well. Yeah. So I'm really, really looking forward to it. Yes, man, sounds awesome. I like that, it's not. Not Just One Direction because a lot of conferences are like II
speak for 50 minutes. We have. This is my thing. Yeah, after that, you sometimes have a questions or sometimes, not even but as the audience like, I mean, sure it's informative. But yeah, it's way better if I can engage, right? Of course, of course. Yes, those are the best ones in the most memorable ones, purpose then. Yeah, I think, at least you walk out of it, thinking, you found some value. Exactly.
Yeah. That's, I mean, if you're hosting that whole thing, that's the best feeling, right? Yeah. If you give people value in that way. Oh my God. Yeah, I think. Funny. I don't know if people realize the long-term value of the giving value part. Yeah, you know, I think like, what we started the conversation with the earlier when we met he outside the whole knowledge sharing piece. Yeah. How many people actually freely? Give their knowledge and yeah it just built.
I think we of selling this to your colleague earlier. That's the we start this thing called.
This is My Cloud security architecture, or as a thing, and I know I'm going to get a lot of hate from our Consulting companies because what we shared their is what a lot of Consulting. Um, please Archie charge people for and but we're just giving it out there for free because I'm like there is no point in Tiding, this information and it because in my mind to what you were saying, if you share your knowledge, it doesn't make you any Dumber.
It just means that you get another perspective from another person, but then also at the fact that it's at the same time you learn that. You elevate. One More Level because you've heard enough prospective to know. Oh, that respect. It was amazing. Yeah, she'll this perspective is amazing. And now I have this third dimensional You have to say map same thing that I've been thinking about single dimensionally now I have two more opinions that I. Yeah, that was interesting.
I should try talk more about that. I kind of align more with what Patrick said or what. What shall be said. Yeah. Have some her personal knowledge sharing is amazing. I think that it's very underestimated, but I wish more people did that. I agree. I agree. I think knowledge is the thing that gets sharper and sharper, the more you share it. Mmm, I'd it's like honing, honing your skills, honing any skills. Yeah.
By sharing your knowledge. First of all, you get better because Of it. You get better at explaining it, the people share their perspective, it changes your perspective and it holds it, right? And then all of a sudden it becomes memorable. Yeah. Yeah. The people and there's also challenging as well because you almost are being one durable because when you put yourself out there, you shared what, you know?
Yeah, now you're like, okay, I can't really say that I have to learn something more better to be better than the previous version of myself. Like, what else can I do to make myself even better than what I was yesterday? Yeah, like it kind of made me think that's kind of another level of challenge. Judging yourself as well if you're looking for that kind of thing as well. Yeah absolutely. And it is vulnerable in that
people love giving critique. They don't love sharing that knowledge the same way you do, right? Yeah. All right, one, that way. Oh that game, all three of us putting ourselves out there and Mentos podcast goes live or goes on YouTube. Whatever whatever we might end up saying over here that gets goes on to the episode. Some of it may become controversial even though we don't intend it to be controversial because all of us just want to have a good life. Yeah. Drink coffee have some food.
Enjoy a normal life. But clearly, I'm a sub say something right now or she might hear something right now, even though unintentionally might offend someone hopefully not. Why, it's one of those things like, but I didn't mean it that way and it's the moment is gone. Yeah, but I believe if you don't put yourself out there it's not fair because then you're not allowing yourself to grow. You're not allowing others to grow and in that hundred two hundred people.
Like at the moment, our podcast gets about what 10,000 plus episodes. Also 10,000 plus viewership but episode And great. That's a lot of people who talk about the fact that, oh, you know, this is not common. So a lot of people who are experienced, look at that and go, oh, this is pretty good. Like, I don't have to tell anyone. I can just direct them over
there. Yeah. Whereas the other half is also people, who just don't like the popularity with it just like, well, I had the same idea like I think I remember I got this message. One say that oh, I was well, start the podcast the same name, but you took it am I how am I supposed to know that exactly. What about sorry. Yeah. Do you want to say sorry or like wait, where is this coming from?
And it's like, things like that. So some people are just like and I don't, I don't have any negative feeling for that person because that, yeah, but I definitely feel that they're just like mix of people and in a way that energizes me too as well. No, I'm helping that many people. Every time I say something share something information out which is valuable. Yeah, it's gonna share some about, there's going to be some negative feedback coming back and I'm okay with it.
Yeah, because I know I don't intend to hurt anyone or I don't intend to be, Offensive to anyone. Yeah, I think that's, that's a really good mindset to have, right? I think, if people think of okay, but I took that name, but you took it like that's such a weird thought. Oh, my God, that's awesome. I had a great idea. Someone else already ran a. That's right. I can think of another one, right? Or I can do better. I can improve people, usually love pointing fingers.
I don't really look at a mirror. Look at themselves. Like it's such a weird mindset to have. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's the way they were brought up. Maybe it's, I don't think it's in their nature. I think it's due to circumstances. Oz, of course here. But I've just never never had those same thoughts, like, I'm genuinely happy for the people are doing good, very light because then it's possible for me to also do good. I look up to people, I can be
like, I can also do that. It just takes time and effort. And once you realize that, not all it does is take time and effort, and it might take you less time and effort might take you less time and effort than it does me. Yeah, it doesn't mean I shouldn't start. I just means I have to get started. Yeah. Except I never even that itself is so hard. Yeah. Like just starting something. It's we talked about this quite often about starting the podcast.
We talked to a lot of people who are starting the podcast, some do really well, like, put the effort and just go all the way. Yeah. Some do the pot fade thing as well and you feel kind of bad but you also understand because it's life gets in the way as well. Yeah. So sort of fair to judge everyone who's basically going through a port Fade to kind of feel. Oh no. I wish they had more but I mean, life is difficult in general outside of all the podcasting and knowledge sharing.
Yeah. It's Not like a lot easy to just like day-to-day. You want to be happy 24/7. But happiness, m is run by some of the parameters, which probably are not the same in a podcast game. It's exhausting, like, doing something more personal or more private and that's completely fine as well. Yeah, it's not for everyone ride. Like I think it's good that people try doing podcasting of they think they want to, but if it's not for you, that's fine. You know. You do you give it a go like
everything else in life. I'm sure we've all picked Hobbies when we go. Oh, that would be cool. But then you kind of go. Oh actually, it's not for me. So A lot of people think they want to start one, but if they've done say ten episodes and they're like, no, this is not for me, that's fine as well. I think it's important to at least give it a go. I think that's what we get. A lot of people asking about all. How do you start a podcast or should I start one?
I always say. Like, look, if you've thought about it, definitely start one. Give it a go, and if you don't like it, you don't like it. It might grow into. Like I think when we were starting on this journey, someone had said something quite interesting. They said that, it'll, it'll never fail. It'll just become something else. Yeah, so it's you know, it may Take you in a different direction. You might find. There's a part of the process that you really enjoy, and you
take that on board. So yeah, I think it's important to start and give everything in life, we're going. Yeah. You never know what it might become. I really like that. It will never fail. It'll just turn into something else as experience is experience, right? Yeah. If you have those thoughts and you never do it, then you're always going to wonder what if right? And if you do it and it's not for you. You're like I know now.
It is not for me. I appreciate other people doing it and running with it. Yeah, that's awesome. It's not for me, I'm going to try other things, right? Because we don't, we don't just take one path and it's very linear goes all over the place and it circles back and you end up where you end up because of the choices in the experience you have. Yeah. And that's your journey. Yes, journey is unique.
Doesn't matter when you end up or where you are now, you can evolve and it will ya. Another funny I think because just be the hoodie she's wearing it's got a quite interesting code on, it says success. But this all about making sacrifices. Yeah. Well there is one about the Act that if you don't sacrifice for the things that you want, things that you want, becomes you
sacrifice, okay? So for me it was like interesting that to your point about trying different things, come out David, don't you doing in your path? Yeah, I want to bring to the inspiration part of it as well. When say, people see you do the podcast or they see us doing the podcasting. If you are able to inspire someone, there is nothing more positive than that. Like I think I just cannot imagine anything more positive than that. Yeah. You don't have to sacrifice a lot of things.
But sometimes you do make very many sacrifices here in there. But being able to inspire a lot of people and share at else at a scale. I think this was not available
for our parents generation. Yeah. But we have this guy I imagine like someone would have to be like I don't know Pope I guess to have that kind of a you know that kind of a reach that you just say one word and hello and suddenly everyone around the world is like oh my God Pope said hello right now we're sharing information or shame knowledge over here and how we don't know how many people would end up with three to the two, listening to this in the entire
lifetime of this. Episode being online. Yeah and how many people it may touch this, what random conversation but it's very inspiring. People may Inspire someone to start a podcast and reach out to you lie to her. Hey I heard that episode was great. Would love to talk to you more about it like things like that. Wouldn't that were not even possible before so very inspiring. Yeah we live in a lovely age. I feel very lucky that it's easy to depart information. Like maybe 20 years ago, you
couldn't start a podcast. You'll probably have to you know, rent a big Studio like now. All you need is like you know, a Mike You know, you've got your laptop, most people get like, we started very MVP like just for the phone and I think your laptop at that was our initial podcast setup, love that and everyone can do that.
And that's the real. Brilliant thing that you don't have to invest a lot that comes with time but you know you can get started really and that we live in an age where that's possible where you know, technology wasn't there, you know, 20, 30 years ago that he could just, you know, start every dream that he have become a YouTuber like, you know, you're on the television all the time and all you need is just too. A phone that's really, really
great. That, you know, we do have a lot of potential at the moment but it's a great story there. But maybe when we were on our way to New York. For a, for a conference couple of weeks ago, we came in a fight called Consciousness, which is an Australian flight and we were the counter and the lady at the counter was helping us check in she, once she realized, we are podcasters or YouTuber. She like it's a lot of money to spend before I can start
podcasting. Like like and she'll be a, I think you should probably finish his story. Just really interesting. We told her that, you know, obviously we told her How we started.
And, you know, a lot of the platform's, you know, if you're just starting off Archie Free to sign up on as well to distribute, and we gave her a few things and she actually wanted to start a podcast about being an air hostess and all the funny stories that, you know, they like experiences they had and we said, you know, let's do it. Yeah. And she took down the notes and I really hope she does start something.
But you know, just that you know, as we were talking about that inspiration and sparking energy and knowledge sharing, and could be just entertainment or whatever. I think that's something really powerful. Like, you know, that you can do this. These days. Yeah. I like that. I think starting is the hardest part to a lot of things, right? Yeah.
Because you just see an uphill battle and you're already behind and even if you admire people and they inspire you and you feel like you want to be kind of there or even close to that, you feel like you already so far behind. Right? Starting his so hard. Yeah, but from our perspective, the only thing we do is we throw something in the fold that people take it with them and they'd be good feeling with and do something with that. Yeah, we might not ever know what that is, right?
And it's the same with a Conversation. When someone says, I think it's really hard to start. Yeah, yeah, this is how you make a small, right? And then you say, I hope you actually start. Yeah, they might and that's really cool or they might not but at least they know that it's an option, please give them something tangible. Yeah, which is really important. So I think that's something that we always try to do. When people ask us, is try to give them a few tangible.
Things like this is where you can host, you know, this is the cheapest mic which you can buy and this is and give them the tools. And as you said, if they go with it, you know, you've done your part, you've given them The knowledge that you can and then it's up to them and if they don't that's fine as well. Yeah, awesome. I wonder, how did you do meet and when did the podcast actually one of the ball. Start rolling.
So we we've been together. So we're husband and wife which I think is a great combination for working together alone together for 14 years. So for a long time and the podcast is only three and a half years old. So I think for us definitely I think we started at the right time in our relationship as well, because I think we've gone through A lot of maturity I think working together is completely different than being, you know, husband and wife.
So I think just finding that balance has been really important. So as she started the podcast back in 2019, this was like just the beginning of the, you know, the pandemic. We used to run a lot of deaths ex-con meetups the Melbourne Australia and when the pandemic was just starting off, a lot of people were wanting to know more about Cloud security because love Securities was still is and back then even more so or something.
Renew. And there wasn't enough knowledge and she should get approached quite often saying, oh, can you tell me about this? Tell me about that and we would think about how do we scale this whole thing. You know, how do we I mean as much as we love, you know, having those individual conversations we want everyone to be able to access this information and we I think you just started the podcast. You said you know I'm just going to find some interesting people who are working in the space.
I think this was someone from AWS. He was happy to have a chat and he started you know, with his iPhone laptop you know and I think we have one Twitter somewhere. Actually the picture of our first set up and he just kicked it off. And every week, he would just speak to someone casually. And it just started growing, you know, people were loving it. They were really grateful for it.
I only came in six months in when it started really growing, and I was like, okay, you know, look, there's something here. I come from an operations and Logistics background. So for me, it's all about, you know, how do we scale this? How we, how do we actually make this a thing and not just you hanging out with someone? Yeah, baby. This is clearly giving people a lot of value. And so that's when I hopped on board and we tried to like tweak a few things. So we introduced, we do a
monthly theme on the podcast. Every month. We have a difference will be an AWS month or kubernetes month. So we tried that, then we've started obviously in a tweaking that's involves and I think initially, we definitely had some feeding issues because we would never work together. We both had very different day jobs. So how do we draw the line between being, you know, husband
and wife and business partners? And oh, yeah, I would say, first year was definitely, You know, we will obviously no disagreeing like a different things which is really important. You don't want to like have the same opinions. Yeah, nothing. Now I feel we are now in a good Groove where we can, you know, be business partners when we need to and just obviously be husband and wife and we need to as well. That is so cool.
So cool. I mean, especially to me, I have a YouTube channel with my girlfriend as well. We do like workout stuff as well. All right, yeah, we're kind of involved in kind of a professional matter. I'm responsible for editing and video production, and all that stuff. And she's responsible, creating workouts in the camera work and all that stuff. Yeah, she also has a sister involved so it's kind of a weird dynamic there. Yeah. But yeah, it gets real
difficult. You have to put up boundaries you have to say, Okay, this is what I expect of you and you have to tell me what you expect of me. That's right. And it's different than a It's moron. I mean it helps that you're in a relationship, right? But if something happens in your kind of work environment yet kind of bleeds through your website as well. I yeah, but so is what that is, what I think we had to come up with these rules.
We're at what point every round was not of your business session in the bedroom. We've had a whole day of work, and I think I was about to fall asleep and he started talking about something work-related I'm like, no, this is gonna be just like you don't switch off and I think that as well as quite real, when you're running your own thing, you know, you're so passionate about it, you want to do it all the time but you're in it for the long run, you know, I say it's a marathon not a race.
So you've got to find Is to preserve yourself. And I think that really becomes really important when you're working with someone who's family because it is everywhere and you can so easily. Have you know, work all the time. It's important to have that balance. Yeah. Really like that because it feels like a race. You want to get to the end as far as what I don't even know what the end is, we want to get there as fast as possible,
right? And having that Mantra of, it's not a, it's not a race, it's a marathon. Yeah, and we will get there whenever we get there, but we have to experience life, right? That's right. I have to go through the gears, go through the motions have fun with it. It right? Keep having fun with the other. Ones is Never Gonna Last. Yeah, and we'll get there. Doesn't matter where it is. Yeah. Especially if you're doing
something creative. I think it's so important to keep you do your mind healthy as well because it is, it is such a creative process, like everything that you do the conversations that you don't even you have, you've got to feel inspired and if you're a rundown and, you know, out of energy just doesn't happen. So, you know, you definitely I think, especially if you're doing something creative.
It's so important to preserve your energy and you know how know your markers, you know if like no when okay, I need a break from something or, you know, things like that. It's really important to call that out and how have boundaries. So, I think we've come up with some as we've gone through. Like, so we've been doing it for three and a half years, but if you're not perfect yet, but I think every every six months we get a little bit better, I
think. Yeah, I don't think Perfection is something you will ever reach. You'll never be like, okay, we're perfect. Now, as long as you can and I think it's fine like that. You have to accept on you, you just keep going home with that. Yeah. What was your perspective on that was it was it kind of hard, when she jumped on you?
Well I think I definitely say one of the reasons so initially it was a great conversation than I just hanging out and just talking to trust in people like yourself on the other end. Thank you and when she when she came over and she's looking at this and going because I don't think I was a business person before, right? And I never thought I'll start a business, so whatever, especially in the cybersecurity media space. That was always like, Oh, I'm a
technical person. That's that's my thing. Yeah, marketing media is not my thing. I do my thing bad later on, there's a bit of background. As well because we were doing men's fashion as well as food and travel. Like that's why we are so massive food. Is it starts with ourselves and although that completely stopped at the else at the beginning of the pandemic and we were trying to find what's that creative outlet outlet outside of our work.
That's when this kind of podcasting thing kind of came around and it was very interesting that in the beginning. I was just maybe random people and go because that was me before the pandemic. Yeah. I'll meet Patrick, I'll go home and we should go for a coffee together. Let me talk to you about your lifestyle. What what gets you up in the morning?
And let's talk about that for a half, an hour and hour that was most of my days where I love talking about people and just meeting different people once that completely stop.
Nice got that outfit again with virtual calls and even though some of the best experience, but at least you still get to meet another person on the other end of the other end of this ummah wherever right, when she came on board and we're like, well, you're getting, I think by the within, the first six months you're already causing five thousand Impressions, right? Are we going? Is that Like I don't know. This is normals happening. Yeah.
Why are people listening to me? Yeah, I'm like this is just conversation between two people, so just hanging out because to the point that I started off as virtual coffee with a sheesh, okay. The intent was like, well it's going to be me. I'm going to have what your coffee with Patrick because I can't have actual coffee but I'm just going to have virtual coffee. Yeah and I think if people go back enough on the episode to find out she'll say oh welcome to watch it, go through the shy.
It was not even called not scary podcast. And now as it has been She came on board. She was like, well, if you want to make it a business, how do you get sponsors? Yeah, I like well, once the would like what I'm talking about, that's what I want. This shit works and it became a conversation where she kept having her onboard. Definitely gave me a different perspective of how this can become something much bigger
like to the point. That now, three and a half years in. We are into this full time now for the past few months. Yeah, that would not have happened. If she hadn't come on board and kind of gave it some Direction, like the whole monthly theme, she kind of just set it in five seconds, but that has such A profound impact on the way people consume in the content now, people know that, oh, every month, like, for example this month. We're talking about more than
Security application stack. Yeah, what does that look like? Talk about API security? We talk about data set data Ops. We spoke about security monitoring in a modern Cloud world. What does that look like? I mean these are all great topics but the older as she was before she came would have I would have just had that one episode here another episode in three months later four months later. So people are even confused like
what am I really? Listening Ashish for right because after you get to a certain scale, you kind of realize in the in the beginning. It's fine to just have an open theme, right? Doesn't matter what you saw cupboard? Because people are there for you or just curious about what you're talking about, once you start hitting a scale of 5000-6000, there's an
expectation. Yeah, that oh, so I'm coming back to the cloud skinny podcast because this is the kind of content they produce and I would not have had that if she did not come in and say we need to go put this like ducks in the row or however you say it. Yeah. That kind of helped us, I have a lot more following because after that lot of people start teaching our oh I'm looking for to the actual security month or I'm looking for the database security month looking for Cuban, eighties month or
whatever. My oh, this actually is a thing and it then we kind of pulls it to like 10,000 11,000. Am I going? This is insane. Exactly. And with this is like, what third year of us running, and I don't know if how many we there's a very popular cybersecurity podcast called dr. Diaries okay. Jack retired as a person who runs it very Anonymous, but we got to be I got to meet him at Vegas couple months ago and he knew about it. He came on the show as well and stuff.
This guy gets millions of downloads by the way. And he knew about, and it's like they go. That's that to me was like, okay, there is something. There is something here. Yeah, and we just need to like no. Keep continue to continue going that path and I think having her as my co-founder was the best thing I could have done for the podcast that point, I know it kind of creeps into the personal life. But once we got through the whole, is this a work conversation or a personal conversation?
What are you angry world? Are you angry bird? The things that I said before this started or is it the one from the work bleeding? And so once you kind of got through that initial kind of communication issues, I would, if I were to call that, we kind of have found a rhythm to go, okay? This is how this is work more. This is possible mode. We actually call it out sometimes, especially if you want to give like some
constructive feedback. Yeah. We would actually say, look, this is the what conversation? So, this flag and make it very obvious, okay, because you need
to be able to say those things. Like, you know, if I think, Things not working or if you think something that I'm doing is not working, you need to be able to say that to each other and you know sometimes like if you're doing it at like as breakfast table and we know we're having a personal conversation, we just say I'll do mine for 5 minutes if we just switch to a work conversation. So we make that very blatant.
Yeah. But I think that that has worked for us because then we kind of like turn on a work brain on for that second and goal came, you know I'm ready to take, you know, like I just a professional conversation and it's not going to be like oh why did you say this to me? Yeah, so cool man I'm drawing so many repairs. Sorry we should really go to dinner voice. Turn next. If we show her, I don't mean to put you on the spot. Yeah, I just love how you two
made it work, right. And you you were in your corner like, starting a little fire and I want she saw the potential that she threw some gasoline. Yeah, the bonfire. Exactly. Also, with my pockets, you and I need to know. Yeah. It's also the personality as well. I think like the based on the personality you have in your partner, have that makes a difference as well. Because it's almost like a when you talk to people who are do, do investments in talk about, you should always have a
co-founder. Yeah. But what I tell her is that I would any at any point in time, even if we were to start another business, yeah, I would still start with her. Not not just because she's my wife but just also because the kind of partnership you can have with say your girlfriend or your spouse or whoever the it the level of honesty and transparency is quite High.
Yeah. When you have two different people and Nothing against people who have like nachos, husband wife, and or not as partners, like life partners and starting businesses. But when you are not a life partner, everyone has different priorities that you point this parallels of life's going at that point in time. Yeah, you may have something really important at that particular point in your life which the other person is on
experiencing. So they don't know, they don't know yet and they don't have to know as well but you kind of have to like how do you make make that work with in a way that oh I can't work this week. Yeah. Whereas if it's your partner, you can do I know because, you know, so-and-so has happened. So I'm happy to double down on this there in the know they're in the know. And there is understanding and kind of like a family thing at
that point in time. Whereas, when it's another person, they may not be comfortable to share that with their from the business fight and you may never find out. You might just think, oh, this person is not a great worker. Yeah, like, I did a bad decision by coming to this partnership. Yeah, like I think of, we've heard of those scenarios as well. So, for me, personally, the more the longer that I've worked with shilpi, I feel like, oh, this is, I want to do more of this with her.
Yeah. And I'm sure You know, we're growing team. We have a couple of people who work with us as well and a few more. Now, thanks to the now, the kind of work we're doing full time, but even as, as as much as it can grow, and we might bring in more Partners, but the initial team for me, it would be this particular do or dynamic duo that we are. I think that would be the one that I'll go start off with because and I'm sure there'll be things, we don't know.
Yeah. And we'll bring other partners for that as well. But to start off with at least because the initial piece is the hardest piece. Once it catches traction you got it. Yeah, it's like easy. He right? Or you can only jump on the rocket ship. It's already going up. Exactly. Like there's very little you can do to screw things up. Yeah, whereas when it's starting it's probably the most difficult than, like, so totally years. Yeah, for three years.
We've been together onto this mission of making Cloud security. Podcasts being the biggest source for cloud security anywhere on the world. Yeah, how does that happen? If you're not have the great and understanding to go, I'm going to be I'm going to go through this through hard grinds to happy moments through sad moments too difficult. And that that's hard. I mean that's my personal opinion.
I'm sure people out there like I can never work with my husband or can I level at the right time in your relationship? I didn't because I was talked about the fact that look if it was maybe move together for 14 years so maybe like the first few years I don't think it would have been. All right that's for us. You know like every relationship is different and everyone's Dynamic is different and we were much younger when we got together so you know, you're
just different. So I think it just it they're definitely benefits for a couple to be business partners. Owners I guess on the flip side of what it she said, which like, just from a business risk perspective is also, we experience all the negative things together as well. So that means you're kind of, you know, if something bad were to happen, we would probably be equally involved.
Whereas if you have a co-founder who's not in the picture, then they could probably be removed from that and, you know, be able to take on more. So there is that I guess more reward was more risks, I guess, anything in life, right? I like that. You highlight it because the I think the benefits are so good because especially if you come together In a start-up at or even anything you want to do, right. You need to trust people and
sure. Chumps trust comes out of the box for me it does to other people but for someone that has taken that trust and really just established it within your relationship. Right. You trust him with everything. Yeah partner. Yeah we're thinking thin right? Yeah it doesn't get more foundational than that so to be able to trust them to then start on your business Endeavors, right? And you've already established a good way of working.
I would assume. Yeah, because you're loving it so far to just Move that forward, and I love that you say it doesn't. It doesn't actually matter what we're doing. Yeah. Alright. Just having that partner with in that process and then taking on anything else that you need to make it actually happen. Yeah it doesn't really matter what you want to do at the end of the day, I think is so cool
that you've established that. And I think I mean a lot of people are seeking, right are seeking that within a co-founder within a team within whatever they want to do. Yeah. But for you to have found it and to find that within your personal relationship as well. I think is awesome, very admirable. Yeah, thank you really cool. You shall be? I wonder because she started this thing.
Did you already have a notion of like Cloud security, or where I was going or even like on a technical level? We always involved. Was that your background as well? No. So I come from a purely finance and legal bar, grounds have been completely something else, not me, I guess having it has different. Initially, that's what I was thinking. Like, you know, it's so different. I don't even know the field, you know, how am I going to get involved?
But I think essentially like I used to deal a lot with business risks. So I used to lead teams that will dealing with legal and Financial. Scanned cybersecurity. Funny enough is a business risk so I they were actually a lot more parallels than I thought
there were conceptually. There's a lot of things that really like, I just clicked from a business level I think, especially when we're having conversations with Security leaders and cisos, I do find that I can relate to a lot of the problems that they talk about a lot of the challenges that they're having. I think that was really sort of interesting for me, I've always learned a loved learning new things. So for me, that was really good
as well. So initially, obviously, I The first six months I was a bit like, I'm not sure, you know, because I do like look after the production of the podcast as
well. And then she was like, what is This Acronym mean and stuff, but it's amazing like, in the last three years, the amount of information I've been able to absorb and I've taken the initiative to obviously learn about different things as well, and I actually find it really fascinating and I think I was definitely at that point in my career where I was looking for something different.
I love you know, sort of, as he said, you know, becoming better every day and and I think that's cybersecurity has been just so I I didn't realize how interesting it was. So I really get passionate about it now. So I think it's been a great learning experience so and in a way, I'm kind of like our audience. You know, I'm actually listening to things that I want to learn about some almost on the same Journey as our audience where I'm learning about Cloud security with them.
Yeah, that is so cool. I'm really proud of her for doing that because I think a lot of people underestimate coming from a guy, said non-traditional cybersecurity background. Yeah. Like I did a master's in cyber security but that doesn't make me any more. But not having a technology background coming and Technology whoever does that? I think we have had a few people on our podcast who were lawyers before. They got into sub security Cloud security.
There were people who were like music teachers and you almost look at all these different backgrounds coming into that going, but they all kind of like what she did. They all can draw paddles. Yeah. And I'm going, wow. Like, I mean, and but for someone who's always in cybersecurity a bit of a bias, I always used to think that we are beautiful snowflake that, you know, all because I did five security your snowflake. Yeah, I am in many. Other ways.
But it's also fascinating for me that oh this kind of proves the point that you don't have to come from cyber security or technology. You can pick things up later on like this. So many people who changes change their career much later in their life. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that. Oh, I'm stuck in this field now because this is all I know I
can't learn anything new. You know, I'm really proud of her for doing that and I think the cloud security, it's a bit lucky because Cloud security itself has not been around for that long. So, I mean, the Inception was 15 16 years ago. So like three years in Cloud Katie's, I should quite a long, long time. Yeah, I think I'm in to mediate so because it's just technology is just not that new and most people are still sort of scratching the surface of cloud security.
It's interesting because we often you know because we are so into it. We forget how much of the world still has not adopted plowed as a way like we still speak to large insurance companies, large Banks, a lot of them who are still very much on premise. So, it's really interesting to realize that, you know, even though I'm fairly new to it,
yeah, like a lot. The industry is still fairly new to it because yeah, it's like adoption is still happening and we're still at the beginning of the journey. I think it's so cool that you took that something that was interesting and you really just took ownership of that and really went in depth in that as well. I think it, I mean, the perspective you bring to the table, everyone has kind of a unique perspective, they bring
to the table, right? And it doesn't matter whether you're you've grown up in your season security engineer, what have you, right? If I'm even talking about myself and software, engineering everyone has a unique thing. They bring to the table and unique. Dave might be your upbringing might be the environment you grew up in. Might be the education you have previously. Yeah you take that with you and it might come in handy and usually does yeah.
It's what I've learned is like technology is actually quite simple and the people make it so much. Yeah, for sure. Like she don't talk about, that is exactly supposed to be really complex, man. It's a really hard job people. I think for us as well, one of the benefits is that because he is very technical and he's been doing like cyber Purity for a long, long time. Yeah. And I'm slightly new one come
from a different thing. It's been actually really beneficial for our business because the last thing you would want us to people who think exactly the same way. And I challenged a lot of the things because I'm new to the field. I would question a lot of things which has been really beneficial. Yeah, for the podcast as well, because I come out. Can't come from an almost Outsider lens, which is beneficial for the business as well. Yeah, that's been really powerful.
I like these that you're the audience. Yeah. If you learn something, if you take something or you take, Episode and you, it brings you value. That's a good thing right? Because then it might bring other people that same value as well. Definitely. So you know I so I till today just added all the podcast episodes and it's a bit selfish because I actually want to listen to them. Yeah. And doesn't of them in depth, okay. And I'll always come back to him saying like, you know, this was
really valuable. I really enjoyed this, you know, this like give that feedback because I'm also trying to learn about about the topic which would be the same as when our audience is listening for. So yeah, that's been really good. It's something that, you know, I get a whole lot of value from Myself yeah that is so cool.
This the continuing continuing Improvement Circle you have going on because you also give him feedback and probably he gives you feedback on the editing or what have you as well? Yeah. Really cool. Yeah, I think we've gotten to the point. Now, we are actually producing something called Cloud free podcasts Originals, which is like the Netflix version of cloud security as a way that would not have happened if the feedback was not on going, okay?
It's so many things that I was taking for granted where she would like, but where is that I was spoken about. I'm like well isn't that obvious like It's not obvious. Like so we started doing these original series. I think you did one of digital digital supply chain. I did 10 trust like the idea behind not, have you heard of walks or vice? So, there will be the popular news media, in New Journalism kind of channels on YouTube and otherwise they do, they do documentary style.
And we've been, we used to watch a quite a bit of it. They will cover interesting topics and we want to we took inspiration from that and start covering interesting. It's in the cloud security space, nice, and that quite a lot of popularity. We did the one of the most popular one is just for the different generations of cloud security posture manager, which is like, a toolset framework that Gartner just like a very popular. They come out with metrics for what's a great tool in the
market. Yeah, and they came up with this thing. They are came around alone for throwing out acronyms. Yeah. Every year, they have a different acronym, they mostly start with a c for whatever the cloud was for some reason start getting longer. So there's See nap in the cwpp. And this like this, just like so many. And one of the things for the industry is there's so many of them coming out and everyone's kind of like, what do they mean? Yeah. Like do I need one.
Do I need all of them or just one which ones? Yeah. Which ones do I going for? So I think it's funny because that's what we're trying to debunk as well. That the marketing around the cloud security space has become so boxed in into this particular space at all. Unless you're working with the four C's. Yeah, you don't really Have anything. Like I think that's basically all Cloud Securities is a within those four seas. There's nothing else outside of it and I'm glad that now.
Slowly people are realizing that. Oh, actually, why we're talking about developers and software Engineers who are basically the right, the people who were actually developed in the cord. Yeah, you guys are just talking about being reactive or there's an incident. Let's get onto it right. There's a fire to blow out but let's just talk about how do we work with the developers?
How do we work with the business and that conversation is slowly coming in back into Cloud security and to what shall be said, 16 years old. Time for anything and even web development has been there for long that long as well. We're all trying to get get, you know, are different stages of Technology where some people are still working with older
technology. Yeah. Some people say, maybe working in Ruby today and my like oh my God I can't believe I work in Ruby, I should be working in node.js, so go do whatever I can. Yeah, every field has that and I think I feel the cloud security space is also in that place where the initial wave was all about this. The four C's from cloud from Gartner and now it's almost like wait. Actually, let's just take a step back when do I really need this?
Because technically, I found the issue but I can't do anything with it. I still have to go to a developer to fix this. Yeah. So why not write security became a lot about? Here's your problem. Here's another problem. Here's another problem. Like, in this dashboards of problems and a lot of organizations are going. Okay, great. I know where all my files are, but how do I put them up? So I think it's an interesting
time. I mean it's one of those Industries that's growing really rapidly and there's a lot that's happening, but So we've been trying to sort of put content out there, that's really easy to consume that Tina and it's entertaining. I think that's another thing that we try and put a bit of humour in it, make it absorbable. Because at the end of the day, you know, there's so much knowledge and Technology.
If any field, you know, be a software development Cloud security anything, there's so much to consume and for us it's all about has to be short, has to be something that's easy to absorb. You know, you can just listen and like a podcast. You know that your it's a relaxing as well. It's not like picking up a book. It's not that heavy. Yeah. I like these are easy to do. Sore, because security and Cloud
security. Obviously, as a component of that, I think it is. It's the best when you don't notice it, yeah? When there's no fires and everything is smoothly, you don't even have to react, or act or do anything. Yeah, everything is a smooth operation. Yeah, yeah. That makes it very not tangible for a lot of people because if you're like, okay, we need these things in place because otherwise, these things might happen that I could, he mean might happen if they've never happened?
Yeah. What do we need this? Yeah. Or they read something. And like, we need all of this and you look why? Why what are we trying to solve here? Like, yeah, it's That tangible. No, no, people, people really need it because otherwise, the committee screwed, especially longest time, people used to question with a cloud security
is even a thing. Because clouds all the cloud providers by Nature, were meant to be really sort of there is no breach, you know their self resolving a lot of the gaps that come up kind of all, you know, Auto remediate and everyone was like what is cloud Security, even a thing? And now obviously in the last few years, you know, we've had things like look for Jay come up and there's all these like different breaches like car. Currently everyone's talking
about the Uber breed. So there's lots of these different things that are coming up now. People are like yep, actually Cloud providers obviously, automate remediating, but there's a lot of different gaps that are still there. So it's been definitely an interesting transition from going. It's not a thing to. Okay, we need to pay attention
to this. Exactly, I love our Dimension as well because I think the security being so automatic that you don't even realize it, I mean, I'm an Apple user and I think if you kind of go back enough, they had to use you shall pass codes. Now, they have after that, they Of complex ones now is to face ID. Android has those as well. The, it is a security feature, but it's all frictionless and it except the known questions it when your face doesn't match your not thinking, oh, I hate
security. Exactly. You thinking, oh my something's wrong with my face or something. The thinking is very different. Yeah. To be able to do that in the cloud security. Space is kind of way where we want to get you. It's almost so frictionless that when you are blocked, you know, you do something wrong, you don't block because oh like you know because something may happen the world may fall down. Down it's more because or, you know, you have been 90% of times. You don't even realize.
It's there that 10 or 25 percent that it's when you do experience it. It's because something wrong has happened and they just stopped you before it became a thing. Yeah, that's where the future is. It's not in like clearly Apple. Android those people have realized his way before convincing like security when you talk about clouds, okay? We're talking about technology people but they are solving this problem for general consumers, like every day, and like, you know, day in day or people
Grandmom's, granddad. Dad moms everywhere. They're not technical people, at least. Not all of them to convince them to be okay with a faith ID like that is next level. Exactly, right. I need to get to that point is they're all of us are striving to. So, yeah, if you can get to that point, I'll be order 1, Arie amazed, I'll be more than happy if we can get to the point where we don't have to do a job. I think we're thinking about doing more interesting things
than thinking about security. Yeah, I agree. I mean, when when Cloud environments were available, right? We had a landscape of infrastructure. And a lot of it was facilitated and step one is. Okay, let's see, let's see if we can actually make make this work. Yeah. Like can we actually deliver some value to an end customer somewhere? That's right. And that was step number one and when people establish like a proof-of-concept, they're like,
okay let's make it scale. Yeah and then somehow they're like at the end usually or when something goes wrong they're like us. And it wasn't actually that secured because we don't even wish I was still trying to figure out how to use the cloud to its best capabilities. Yeah. And even if you have your application and even if it is Is secure. You can still pay a lot at the end of the month by the things that you're using, which you might not actually need.
Yeah, so the cloud is always this kind of ongoing kind of organism we're trying to figure out from an application from a software engineering perspective how to best use it from a security perspective, how to make it the most secure it can be. And then now we move from a female perspective how to kind of reduce global warming in the
things that were using in pain. Yeah, that's pretty interesting that I think I'd and it's amazing how many people have started talking about the impact on climate with Loud as well. Yeah, like so many Amazon Microsoft, they all talk spot, talk about the Green Revolution as well. So it is amazing. The fact that oh now it's not just it's not just a conversation with politics is the quantization one technology, people as well, where the things we're using can be green as well.
And mean earlier, just like I make a program or a software, it just goes out in The Ether. People use it. I talk about with my friends and no one ever finds out. It's tough. Yeah. That's right. It sounds like oh amazing have like 100,000 downloads and make a great amazing but now Able to say, oh, it's a True Green, Apple always got running on green infrastructure. That's an amazing feeling to
share people. Like I personally definitely connect with them and people came out and said that they're going to be green. I'm like, ah, the best thing ever. Yeah, let's see if you look at the weather outside and in general, like how dramatically it is changing everywhere, and people still feel that climate change is not normal. This is conversation where people just start hate me. Hate mail, climate change is not normal, but I think I definitely love that fact that people are
trying to go more green. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I think it's such an interesting field were right in the The thick of it. Yeah, but I feel like it's evolving, so rapidly, but every, every new year, I read conference that the big cloud providers do and they bring out new stuff on them and this is really exciting. Yeah, I from a software engineering perspective, a lot of things I give out of hand and there. As you say, they are Auto remediated. They're all of facilitating, the
autoscale their services. So we don't actually have to do a lot of things, but then you still need that knowledge. Which is a lot of in-depth knowledge has when shit hits the fan, and you don't know about that. But then all of a sudden you're screwed because you do need to have that knowledge, that Foundation Knowledge of what happens behind the scene, what are the remediate and what doesn't, what serverless actually does and what you still
have in hand? I think, because everything gets easier, we expect a lot more from the people, right? Whether it's security or software engineering, and I wonder if it goes to a point where it's too much where something is like, okay, we expect all of this, all this huge package just from you and the same is required from you. And we're all going to be generalists, and we're not going to know everything about everything. I think one of the biggest challenges in Cloud As well as a
lot of, like, on default things. So a lot of cloud security providers are giving up things by default, and when you actually check them, they're not the best one for your organization. As you said, you know, that whole out-of-the-box generalize thing. One of the biggest challenges recently has been that, you know, they're finding that all these defaults are actually not great for their organizations leaving things open. They're not being configured properly.
So, there's a lot of those challenges that are coming out as well, which, you know, as you said because everyone's being possibly a generalist and just, you know, just uploading Things. It does become a bit of a challenge. When you go off at things on by default, and it shouldn't have been, yeah. Now, what do I do? Yeah. Which defaults are correct.
So there's a lot of fun. It was interesting because we've been to quite a lot of security conferences this year and it's been, I think a lot of people are doing a really, a lot of really good work around educating people about. Look, if you've got this application on say, AWS or whatever, make sure, you know, these are the defaults. And I, you sure if these are the right defaults, for you, and same with Azure gcps the same. So, as you quite rightly know
that knowledge Is still missing. There's not enough, you know, developers and security people out there. Yeah. However, a lot of people are moving to the cloud. So you know, how do you, how do you fix it? And I don't think anyone really has that answer, but it's agreeing that figuring out. Well, I love the, I love this community in that we do as a
collective, right? Because I don't know what it is about this Tech space that we have, but when there's information, it's never being held hostage. Yeah, it's being spread out to the fold and tribal people discuss and, and new insights come from that. And people, when Do that continuously exactly what we said at the beginning. He becomes better. All the and will become more informed of it. Yeah, the world around us becomes better obvious, right?
We get to know so much more by hitting someone else's perspective as well. It's not just us talking about it. Yeah, but other people chatting that their perspective, their experience from it. I think it's just for the better, so maybe hopefully, after this is the episode, someone out there starts another version of a, I don't know, something that helps the software Community as well as the security Community as well just by inspired by all the podcasts.
Ian and all the cloud conversation, we're having a lovely. Yeah, I would love that as well. It's been amazing that if they start something. So if someone's listening P, start something is that and let us know because I don't just start and don't tell anyone just start and let Patrick Camino or she'll be know that. Hey, I heard this episode find inspirational, and I'm just gonna start a podcast today and I'm sure you'll be happy to if people reach out to you and go. Where do I start?
And I'm sure you can share your absolutely. Absolutely. I love sharing about things that I'm passionate about. Yeah. Who doesn't, right? I just have to find Way to tone it down, sometimes like might be a bit too much. Very nice. I can't, I can't remember how many times I've talked about the podcast on the podcast. Some people might be sick of it, but I loved, I love how your journey has gone so far. I'm really excited where the future is going to bring you guys, I didn't mean for this to
be the main topic. I'm really happy that it got to be though and I'm so I'm really appreciate you coming on and sharing. Is there anything you still want to share with our audience before we leave off? Of. Well, I think I would probably just say that the, you know, the first step whether it's for podcasting or learning word. Cloud security can be
overwhelming. Yeah. But the hardest thing you can do is not starting to learn Cloud security or to learn sell software development or to learn how to do a podcast, or that knitting hobby or whatever you want to do, like know they must be, I mean, whatever gets them going. I definitely feel after the pandemic of come out of it like are more YOLO mode for hey, Now
we only have one life. Yeah and earlier before pandemic over here we only have one like yeah I know, I know I have only one life but now I'm only holy shit. I only have one life. Is that I do. I'm always more conscious of the fact. Whenever I do meet someone, if I can, leave them inspired to do something. I that that's for me.
My value is delivered. So, as I was saying earlier, if someone listens to, this ins does even one episode on a podcast or a YouTube video, or does it first knitting thing or, you know, just learn something new today. I'll be more than happy. That that that's my I think I just my going away. Message, I guess.
Yeah, I love that. I think for me something that I've been saying lately, and I think it's again, like from the pandemic where, you know, for most people, a lot of the external stuff was switched off for, you know, a good couple of years. Yeah. And he kind of went, you had the time to self-reflect and go. Okay, what is it? That's really important to me.
And I think something that I've just been telling everyone is like start living life on your own terms, whatever makes you happy, whatever gives you fulfillment. That's what you should be doing. So if that's a podcast for you or if that's you know during a hobby of Fitness, YouTube channel, whatever it is I think it's really taught us that you just have to live your life on your own terms and do what makes you happy awesome. I love I love that both.
I'm really later guys. I'm really happy we made it happen. Yeah. We actually discussed it like two days ago. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on and doing this thing and we're going to run it off here, she'll be in. I she said everyone where I'm going to put all their stuff in the description. Option below. Check them out. Let them know you came from us and thank you for listening. We'll see you on the next one. Thank you, thank you so much.