Changing Careers, Listening and Podcasting with Bart Farrell

Hi everyone, my name is Patrick you. And for today's guest, I had part Pharrell on, he's a CN CF Ambassador, as well as a cloud native community freelancer and we talked about his journey. How he ended up in Tech in the first place because it's quite a journey. Nonlinear one. We talked about podcasting listening, as well as starting versus finishing up at all. Bart's socials in description below. Check him out. In with that being said, enjoy the episode. I was looking at your LinkedIn.

Profiles, worst kind of your job history. And I noticed you came from a non-technical background and then kind of transitioned into Tech. Can you kind of walk us through how that transition happened and how You Came Upon like the tech sector in the first place? Yeah, that's that's an interesting, a lot of twists and turns. So yeah, my academic background.

I got my undergraduate degree in religious studies and I always have to explain that I wasn't trying to become a priest to a public university and but just being curious about lots of different. Makes religious studies combines lots of different fields whether its history sociology. Psychology literature even Arts, its kind of Limitless in that sense. And so, I finish University in

2008, right? When the financial crisis was was starting and not to say that religious studies degrees where you don't high in demand from the Forbes 100 companies. But I thought I had my first job out of college was working in a

restaurant. I was living in New York And then I moved to LA. I worked at a school for six months started, studying Arabic that I moved to Egypt live there for a year to learn Arabic. Well, after that we moved to London while I was in Egypt, I met the person who's now my partner my day. I'm I did and so, yeah. And then London, I got my master's degree in Conflict studies and then after that move to Spain, since my partners from here. Yeah. And I started working as an English teacher.

It was the first job I could get in, kind of the only job I could get because I didn't know Spanish. Job market was also quite limited and so I started teaching lots of private classes. I had students that were working in Tech and now I'm in touch with them for different things. I've been doing so interesting how those things came back, and after four years, when the second year of a teaching English, just as like, a side

project, I started a YouTube channel that was called, This is English where I would just get on camera and do really silly things. I have a friend of the former student, who, who is like obsessed with YouTubers, like we got to do some of the on. To. But what if I don't wanna be a YouTuber? That's not really my thing and nothing about this. Yeah. But my parents put me in acting

classes when I was a kid. And I've always been pretty Shameless. I was like, okay, I can do that, I'll do it. Yeah, it was a complete, it was a complete failure. Oh, we made about 50 videos and I think the maximum got like, maybe a thousand years because I'm just spamming absolutely everybody that I knew and sharing every possible place. Well, what year was this? And just not get the, this of this. All this is such a long time ago.

This would have been in and also realize how old I am, this would have been in about 2000, anima 2013. Okay. And we would, we would record videos at my house or his house and it was always like, let's just record this as quickly as possible hated having to repeat myself. And then I would pressure him to like, edit everything as quickly as possible once again. Not realizing that like, you don't have to do that, it

would've been much. So Harder to do what you're doing at to record, lots of content, all ones and then you start putting out there. So bottom line is, is that these videos eventually we started making videos about my experience as an American person living here. And, and that sort of shifted the tone. And there was also much more interest and less competition because it was a niche there. No, there are no other foreigners making videos about their experiences.

And so that that got a lot better responses because we You're offering something that was easier to engage within the people would share and all that kind of stuff. Hmm. These videos and then the fact

that I had a an ad on a website for teaching private English classes caught the attention of a British software development company, no longer exists but they had a Development Center here in Bilbao the city where I live, okay and there are having significant challenges around Communications since most of their staff wasn't fluent in English and They were having to communicate every day with people all over the world and it was software that was being used for e-commerce.

So this was, you know, when a lot of Boom was going around Black Friday, singles day, all that kind of stuff, starting to use, Big Data Technologies, actually starting to use kubernetes quite early on first missiles and then moving over to that. Yeah, so they were really having a lot of problems with that. So they brought me on and I started part of my time teaching. Then my boss had my first day was like, I want you to organize Events and I want you to organize them in English, I do.

And I was like, okay, we're going eyes anything bigger than, like, concerts in college because I play. I play guitar. I play guitar drums, and like, a couple of birthday parties, and I'm not an organized person. I'm amazed, you can ask my wife and as everybody knows very disorganized, but I was like, okay. So then started contacting the students that I had that were working in Tech mother banks are Consulting even local. Permanent and other, hey, I need organizations around Tech that.

Does anybody know anybody? And then leveraging the networks, though, two of their about 100 people in this Dev Center. Some people had given talks a fair amount of times and, and also new people in the local ecosystem. I started attending meetups and meeting people there, and then just contacting lots and lots of people on LinkedIn getting established connections with universities. Other companies. Like I said, local government different initiatives there.

Yeah. And but it was really learning by In learning by failing, a lot of trial and error. So that's kind of how I found my way into deck. That's a, that's a crazy story. I love how it went from kind of your journey in your University career, your educational career, in kind of seeking out opportunities, right?

And sure it was the right opportunity at the right time and you jumped on it. But at some point, this is kind of the route that set you upon this path to go deeper into the tech sector, which is, I mean, it's weird how opportunity kind

of finds you in that way, right? Were you always like you never you probably thought you would end up here. I'm assuming Yes. And no and more no than yes. But for a couple of different reasons like my my parents have changed careers and not because of like losing their jobs because they decided like oh I want to do this or do that. Now they're both retired are both very very active. So I grew up around people that were always doing a lot of things and also my grandparents as well.

And then when my brother my sister or whether as you know sports or leadership activities in school and things like that. And so for me it just didn't seem that strange to like get involved in different things. Like my dad, got his undergraduate and philosophy my brother studied film and Latin American studies. My sister Early Child education at the later Garden has now gotten a lot into the heart

space. Yeah, my mom was a school counselor and then worked for the local court system helping families, when there was getting enforced and couldn't make decisions about where their children are going to go. And then she's not later than involved in a lot of nonprofit work. So for me, it it seems strange as well, and feeling a little bit out of place. But then seeing all these different examples, like whoa, actually haven't surrounded by other people that done that.

So it gives you the confidence that you can do it too. Yeah. And my parents have always encouraged me to, you know, not be afraid and to try new things and believing in me. And so that's that's something I also try to transmit to others because of my background in my experience. And, and so, yeah, you know, someone said like Bart. Your path may not be the most linear one, but you still find a way to get to the destination and that Still Remains true today.

That's completely different from kind of my, I think growing up environment. My dad was a security guard at one of the zoo's in Amsterdam. He did that for 20 years, got laid off in covid, but then still is doing more security stuff. And my mom teaches preschool kids and just now after like 20 plus, Years finally said, I'm going to do something else. But yeah, that's that's been the environments like this 20 years, bam, that's it.

And that was also kind of my, I guess perception of how it supposed to be, or how it could be, or how it should be, I guess back in the day but I love that kind of, especially the tech space is nonlinear, right? You can try out a lot of things that you can figure out what you like and what you don't like. And there's different avenues for you to kind of establish yourself and find what you love to do and even that can change in a day. Tapped over the future and I

love that also. I think you take a lot of your previous history with you. I'd love to know like because

your journey is so nonlinear, like what do you leverage from what you've learned in the past and what you're doing now? That's a great, that's a great point. So yeah, that's that's it, right? Is that, I think and I try to encourage folks to do this, and I could do a better job myself, but, you know, track the stuff that you're doing. And I do a lot of. I've done lots of workshops as well, run like, personal

branding, things like that. And one of the first steps is, like, get a photo of, you know, who you are your values, your experiences, the people that you've worked with and then extract from each one, the different learnings Yes. And if you use a little bit of creativity, you can figure out how you can apply, just about anything.

And you know, whether it's a summer job or a course that you took at one point or just different interactions you've had with different people and what you've learned from them. That's something that I try to do often.

And so, that's the thing is like, I, you know, because of I was working as a freelancer or, like, once I left that British startup, I started working in video production but I am not a Like producer in a sense of like, damn, couple of video producer, in the sense of organizing Productions storytelling, you know, working with customers and things like

that. Yes. But I just was out of your hands yesterday the day before in London. It was my first time actually, taking a camera to go and record good. And today, we're going to be with the editor and we're going to sit down. He's going to want to kill me because I recorded too much and that's going to be another

learning process. But because of having been, you know, on the production side of carbonizing things for so many different, Current events like, well, now that I actually have a camera, quite simple lightweight easy-to-use. I can go almost anywhere and start adding value in that sense to. So I think I think a lot of it is and a big thing in here to is like what's a smallest step that

you can take towards that goal? It's like, all right? I want to become a devops or this or that it doesn't it's not going to happen overnight. What's the smallest thing? You can start doing so in my case but this is like, all right, I have the opportunity to go record it and an event.

Is it going to be perfect? Absolutely, not Improve in the future if I keep doing it. Yes so give yourself permission to make tons of mistakes and ask lots of questions and but then like I said you start building on that and that process is really fun. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean the road that you start on, right? If you take the same example, I want to be a devops engineer is going to be long and probably there's not going to be an end station. When you say okay I've mastered

everything. Now there's nothing for me to learn because it's a continuous path and it's a continuous Journey for you as well. So, finding A way for you to start small in the start early and to allow yourself for mistakes, it's going to be kind of a starter to this whole journey. Because even, I mean, I took the

example, or I'm going to take your example of organizing something, I'm also not an organizer. So my you say, I had to organize an event for a lot of people and even non-native speakers and it should be an English like that. For me is like a huge, huge hurdle. And sometimes, I don't know how to break things down into small things to start doing something like, how from your Give if you have to organise something, or if you have your huge task, how do you break that down into small bits?

I could do a lot better job to enhance small bits for the things that I've you know, learn about myself to as being diagnosed with ADHD is up. There's a common tendency of ADHD be able to like like to make a long list and I think it's true. I love making in the passing, it didn't really do it but now more and more when I tackle something like I try to do a brainstorm answer just like just write down as many possible things as you can.

Yeah. And I'm also lucky once again, non technical person but being around teams that use, you know, agile methodologies like scrum. It's like, all right, we're not doing a waterfall delivery on this massive piece of software because we want to have iterations and continuous Improvement. So we you know, working Sprint's taken a chunk and get into smaller pieces. What's a smallest? You know, so it's like, all

right for this to happen. I've got to do all these different things, then based on all the things that have to do, I even try to break them down even smaller things, but then they need to be assigned in with a certain time because a lot, he was overwhelming. I don't know. I just for you but it's like for me. He's like, feel like I have to do everything all at once. No, you don't know. We're going to put these things in order. We can color them priorities,

you know, stuff like that. And also when I approach things I always think about from a people perspective of who are people that can help me in this process and not just me a sense of like, hey can you do me a favor? I mean, sometimes you do need to ask for favors but like are there people who I can involve paying or not? Paying or I don't know what, you know, or an exchange of some kind where it's there are certain tasks that I know I'm

going to do very poorly. How can I involve them in that process? So that increases the chances of success. I'm a big believer in as often as possible making things collaborative because I know my limitations quite well. And so knowing those like, okay, if this particular thing looks challenging for me, who are some folks that can help and benefit in the process as well.

I think creating environments where you know when wins big believer that but and there and like I said we use scrum and scrum is applied. Very differently in lots of different places. Have you worked with agile methodologies at all? Yeah, for sure. Like on a day-to-day yeah and I imagine as well to from, you know, content like a podcast, doesn't just fall from the sky. You're like you have to, you have to meet with the person.

They're you know very various steps in the workflow and a big thing, I think a lot of content creators that are starting out, don't realize is that you might focus on just to blend. The podcast is recorded at, but then there's a separate workflow or a continuation of the work flow that happens. Words, you know, if editing making sure you send it over anyone, you're going to post it. Like and so I think sometimes or at least in my particular case, I don't know.

How is it? You'd like, I want to hear more about how you got started in this been, the beginning was, like, once the recording is done, everything's done. This is like, when you have an event, like, once the event finishes know, there's another process of following up and saying thank you and making sure sponsors were happy and doing metrics in a report and all that kind of stuff.

But for you how was it to get started in podcasting? If for me, I mean, one of the things that sounded like music To my ears is. Someone said, this, I think this is a great idea. We do a lot with knowledge sharing and I want to do more with this, and I think a pockets is a great medium for that. And he said, I'm looking for a host and I'll facilitate whatever you need, right? It's going to be your vision and I'll help facilitate that.

So that collaborative aspect was there from the very start. I don't think I would start, or I might have started, I mean, it's easy to say. Now I might have started, I don't think I would start basically if it was just me because as I mentioned, like, I see an uphill battle. And the road is long and Starting is the hardest thing but because he said, I'll facilitate whatever you need.

I was like, okay, I have an idea, I have a vision, this is kind of the things we need and all of a sudden, he said, okay, I have an intro music and I have the first guest and we have a date now and it's scheduled and these are kind of the things we can think of. And all of a sudden that ball started rolling and it rolled real fast. Now that person is kind of more so out of the picture but I mean this is going to be like I think this is episode 95 or something.

Like now I have it down to a science. Just it's basically a habit. Now, I wake up. I know exactly when an episode airs as know exactly what needs to be done. Still and I make it happen but he had the beginning is so hard. Like, even when I have and I have lots of ideas in the things I do day to day, I love software engineering, but I also love more, so the business aspects.

So when I have an idea and I have to write a business plan to convince people or like collaborate with people and allowing people, then I just see an uphill battle. But when I sit down and actually do the stuff, Oh, I'm rolling. And I'm like, okay, this I love doing this, and it's never going to end until it some, at some point. It does end and I'm really proud of the things I do.

But just starting things is really hard for me. I like finishing things and I like the middle of the road, but starting, it's like one of the hardest things. Do you start easy. Are you more of a starter or you more of a finisher? A wonderful question. And I know I wish we could, you know, pull or that. You know, it's interview people that know me because they'll all tell you I'll tell you that starting whatever you want screaming and as many things as you is Fountains of, you know

started. But the that the thing is like this goes back to a lot of Learners that have occurred in the last year because of my ADHD diagnosis is I like starting is like number one. You know I should put that in my LinkedIn profile of like aptitudes and skills like best starters, you could possibly imagine. But then the other aspect is, you know, the war of attrition of like kicking through the Middle of getting to the end. Yes. And so that's the thing is like,

okay. So we're people aren't aware of, you know, ADHD stuff is a normal brain or neurotypical or whatever, you know, you can have an idea, you know, and there are people that are plenty creative and they have different ideas about different things. But in my case, in my case, what happens is not with every single idea, being being a lot more trouble or anything. The idea is accompanied by its very good friend, Wonderful friendship impulse.

So that the idea comes in all of a sudden the feeling of and now I'm going to start doing this. Forgetting that I have all these other things and I've already started that I were going to be neglected and in my head estimations, I'm if you read like Cal, do have you read anything by Cal Newport finally time management stuff like that? I don't think it's pretty cool.

So, here's this whole thing by Deep work about, you know, how we live in the age of the attention economy, and Solitude, deprivation, not being able to focus, Focus. But his point a here, that's that I want to mention. It's like that estimations in general are off by at least 50%. So like, if you think or, you know, up to under like, if you think this has got to take one hour, trying to take two. Yeah, so when I'm starting something, it's like, oh no,

this can be super easy. Just going to do this is this and you were like, oh, what do I get involved in? So yeah, like I said, that process of self-discovery is help me get a wonderful person to work with me. Who's a screen writer by trade. So, very used to organizing film And yet so his organizational skills are very helpful for me. So he's been a big part of me being able to get to where I am right now and also where I hope to get in the future.

But yeah, so like I said with I could learn a lot from you about how to maintain and finish things. What are your secrets? Yeah, I don't know.

Maybe, I don't know where it comes from. I feel like when I have a flow, I can just go on endlessly. Like, I've done video games where it's just, you know, those gotcha games on your smartphone where you just grind out stuff and it's a it's the same thing or same thing. Aish. It's still challenging, but it's over and over and over again, if you like podcasting is similar, like I love doing it but yeah, I can do this endlessly and I don't know where that comes from.

I think I'm in the middle, I don't see an end, I don't think there is an end. Some boy, my video game stopped or I started working and I didn't have time anymore. So I had to make a decision there, but it's always been like that. I like grinding out a lot of stuff. And I really don't like kind of the start hurdle of kick-starting things and getting things into motion because I think when I'm sailing it,

Smooth sailing. But getting up a sale and hoisting everything and like figuring out, I'm going to say bye to land and going on. See, like that's really hard for me. I feel like but I love that you. I feel that go ahead. No, sorry, I love that you found

kind of a collaborative aspect to kind of. How do you say that balance the facets that you really good at and the fastest that you're less good at right? And I think that's that's first of all really healthy and obviously that like synergizes really well, if you have to get stuff done, Yeah and that no I completely agree.

And a lot of this pain I encourage people to do if you're not incorporating some kind of you know self-reflection and some point in your life it doesn't mean you have to spend five hundred hours a week thinking about deeply about where you're at and what you're doing. But think about the things that you use that you find frustrating and is when possible try to find ways to make them easier for yourself and really possible delegate them. And that's been a big process for me.

Like I said, it's very were the things I'm not good at, so, when Involved in projects always trying to make it as collaborative as possible. Going back to the like finishing stuff though. I think part of its, you know, question of motivations like later today I'm going to go with me with the editor, you know, and it's some stuff.

But then also in terms of things that I really like to do, like something I've done recently is like recording videos of me playing different instruments because I play different instruments like the base. You can see behind you electronic drum set, right here as well, nice and those things, obviously. It doesn't take a long time. And also I don't get obsessed over the quality because it's just something for fun to put out there. And those sorts of things. Yeah.

But I think I think a lot of its defining the parameters when you're attacking, when you're at your best when you're starting something is like okay, well, you know, classic thing, Stephen Covey, you know, the 7 Habits of Highly Successful People. You know, I maybe have, you know, half of one out of seven, but the other thing of start with the end in mind. So like, what is the end result look like, what's the definition

of success here? So, based on that, what are the steps that need to be taken in order to build towards that goal? And so I think that's why it's having a realistic Vision, anytime you're starting, Thing. And and also my problem to being impulsive is that it's like if I have this block but then on the way I realized who I can have this, I could do that. I always need to go back and make sure like, how is it going to affect my ability to hit deadlines like all those kinds of things?

Even if it has a lot of value, it's not was originally asked for. So stick to the plan and like I said, have a clear trajectory on that I guess.

Well, I don't question is well to you've talked to a lot of people with a lot of different profiles and I also like the fact of Blending not just like the technical stuff at the business side. Yeah, it's been your biggest learning since you got involved in this, for me. I mean, especially in the technical domain. It's like communication is key to a lot of problem solving.

And for some reason, we don't communicate enough or we don't give each other room to like voice opinions, or we don't even want to listen to the other person. Sometimes I feel like if a lot of people just step back, listen to what the other person has to say, and really listened, like, without an agenda or without like trying to voice your opinion or persuade someone, I think we actually hear each other then better, and because of that, the collaboration

aspect would be better. And because of that, I think the end result will then be better. Because I think somehow, like, even in a team, I feel like a group of individuals just comes together and the less they listen to each other. The less actual team forming happens. So the faster you actually like, put your opinions on the side and listen to what the other person has to say, and figure out how to do this thing together.

Like the collaboration aspect, I think the better your end result will be in the The more you will operate as a team and even as an organization for some reason we just don't give people the time and attention they deserve and time is it like difficult Factor because time and deadlines come from like a higher management and gets like puts strain on teams and they do weird things when shit hits the fan and when there's tight deadlines right?

So that's like I love that realization and that has come through both the technical side as well as kind of more of the business oriented episodes I've done.

Is that something you've seen Yeah. Oh no, I love that. I think that's a great Insight because like a lot of time with the technical stuff is understanding that if you don't have the non-technical things

established. And I want to take this point further about, you know, listening is that if you don't have those sorts of things, establish your technical stuff is not going to happen, you know, you do not because I worked in telling Management's. Like, if you do not, if you do not create environments where you know where people are, then able to actually use their technical skills properly.

Like you said, if there's an iron we're listening is happening, that's kind of create bitterness, that's going to create resentment. That's kind of create situations where people want to leave the company. A lot of toxicity and that ultimately is going to affect talking about your Roi, you're talking about your business goals. Well what kind of process is faces and procedures? Are you establishing so that people can genuinely be productive?

Not in the sense of like a part of a honey, you can think of it as a part of a machine but like, I'm not seeing as an exploited resource but to really do things to the best of their ability, I've taught a lot of Next week, I'm teaching a public speaking class. And I've done this a lot, but I always say, it's great to learn how to speak, but how many classes are offered about listening? Yeah. I mean, have you ever taken a class on listening just totally curious?

No, no, never, no. I don't know why. Like, I think a lot of people have said, you're a good listener first and foremost like at work and as especially now with the podcast as well, people feel heard. But I don't know what I do differently. Like I think it's maybe genuine curiosity. Real city, which is a hard thing to kind of train.

I feel like, but yeah, I do really like want to know where someone's coming from or where, that opinion is coming from, and I don't really care if I'm right or wrong, as long as we choose for the best result, basically. And I see that if I'm just a bystander, like a third party, and I see people arguing, I can clearly tell if they're not hearing each other, and I can call them out on that. And they'll be like, oh, yeah. Now that's not what I meant or. Yeah.

Well, why do you think that? Like it's just a Weird thing that people don't have it. And I don't know how to train for that, which is a hard thing as well.

But at the things, I think, I think there's actually a silent demand for precisely that kind of training and for people that have never been exposed to that are saying hey look you know, maybe this would be a good idea that we can think about how we can listen to each other. Better this relates to a point was mentioned a good friend of mine who's the CTO and a company in the Netherlands, probably I met.

Massive shout-out, is the importance of problem solving because problem solving at the end of the day is I want to say 99% of what we do. But you know the software it's like we need to To get this installed and we have these issues that are going on but in order to actually be able to tackle those things, there needs to be consensus before attacking

a problem. People need to agree what the problem is. And then, of course, the steps will have to be taken for it to be removed as as an issue.

But in order for people to have consensus, there needs to be spaces where people can get their ideas out there and aren't judged and that it's okay to be wrong and that's not a problem and so building those I don't know, human sociological Psychological spaces where people feel like they're not going to be judged or criticized things like that is absolutely

essential. And so I think there is like I said, I think there's a silent demand is very high in organizations, to create environments so that those conversations can happen so that people take a deep breath. Remember like it's a job. Not the end of the world and and perhaps the distance a little bit, the personal attachment to certain things egos, that can get involved.

And so anyway, I love, I love. What you shared their because I think that listening is such an undervalued skill and you don't just listen with your ears. You listen with your eyes with your body language, with your tone, with what something I am trying to improve is once again, ADHD being impulsive thinking about my response before, I just start putting out there because a lot of bad habits that I have engraved is just like the faster. Something is done the better,

it's not true. And sometimes the first thing you say, may not be the best things like taking that deep breath when I say deep. Not just physically breathing is like, getting into your head and be like, okay, what are you know, how am I going to stretch this?

How am I going to frame this? And so yeah, I think there was there was tons of, there's tons of, you know, room for improvement, regarding all things related to listening someone like they should have like a department in every like legal is Chief listening officers. Then being that. Yeah, because to get to empower other people inside organizations to have those skills means immense potential for lots of improvement and And better collaboration cooperation.

Yeah, I'm I'm thinking my gears are turning because I want to do more with conferences and I want to stand more on stage and I've had a really hard time figuring out like, what am I really good at and what do I like want to talk about? Like, I can pick a technical topic and, and figure out how we solved it and put that in a nice format, but I feel like everyone's doing that. And is it really going to be different? Hasn't it already been covered.

Those thoughts are there, but maybe an interesting take would be like, how to listen within a team and it can be in a small team or a bigger. Emo in organization. Maybe that's what I want to talk about. That's what I'm really thinking. No, I'd go to that conference. Yeah, really? Yeah, I think, I think like I said, is, and I think as you rightly pointed out with technical content, you can still, you can add those human

elements. You can incorporate that saying, like, how do we solve this problem? We'll use this software actually used really good listening, you know, before we started applying our solution, but then the other part of it, just like doing a deep dive. Dive particular on that topic, which of course will have connections with, you know, storytelling around technical projects but now I think there's definitely plenty of room for

that. And is there anything that you've done like you know is this a when did you know okay but with the podcast because you you talk to a lot of people and you're listening to things like that is is this something that you've noticed you know in your family as well like in my case like I would say both my parents are good listeners but depending on what kind of advice or feedback on In for like old consult one or the other, I can also post title taenia.

See ya, my partner's obviously a good source of of listening as

well. But who have been like influences on you that it helped you grow as a good listener? So we could listener. That's that's a hard one. I think the thing is, I don't know if that's like a late realization, but right now if I'm talking to someone and I can see like I'm not really being heard like, I see that more often now than I did before, and when I do, You see someone that's actually listening. When I just stop talking they don't immediately jump in because they're actually

listening to what I'm saying. Then I'm like, okay, this person is actually listening to what I'm saying. So those perceptions I now saw more see but when it comes to actually developing this skill, I don't know what it's always been like, like you I think I need to hide. You say that stimulate my brain in a way that I feel comfortable with it. That's a weird phrase but I'm going to take it a step back. What I used to do a lot is Deal

gaming. And at some point, again, you get quite skilled at the game you're playing, but it's still entertaining to a point where you want to get better and you want to get good at it but for me it was more. So I go into auto mode in. This is more so churning. So what I used to do, a lot was just listening to podcasts. I've done that for, I don't know if it. So it's not a decade. Is it a decade? Is 10 years? A decade? I forget the word in Dutch. Last time I checked it is, right? Yeah.

And I forget the word in touch. That's why I get confused but it's In over a decade. Yeah, I think I can help you all very much. It's very limited, and donkey very difficult language pronounce correctly. Now, that's cool though. But I think like, I think people should be thinking about, you know, role models of her like, positive influences of like good listeners. You know what I mean? And, and I think another thing

that I've been trying to employ lately regarding listening is It because also once again, in public speaking. Powerful silences, right? You? Give this a little bit of an extra gap between a couple words here and there or before you started another sentence. Yeah. And it helps out a lot and same thing with listen to me. So when somebody tells me something and I really want to show them that I care.

I will not. I'm trying not to fall into the Trap just like immediately coming right back and I answer and sometimes too because like you said, when you can tell people are really listening is that you say something Me. And then they're not responding to what you said, which means they're not internalizing it and they're only focusing on their thing and it's like, well, you're not really listening.

Here is being polite enough to wait until I finish the right back with your, with your speech, with your, with your

dead dog with you. Whenever and so when someone more and more, when somebody tells me something and I really want to show that one that just want to show, but what I'm really focused is like, I want to wait a little bit and honor what they've said with a little bit of space so that that sentence That last point that they made its kind of hanging in the air and we're appreciating it. We're giving it time to absorb and thinking about the different different things that we can do with it.

And it's really I really encourage people to do it because for me, at least it's, it's quite fun. I yeah, but like I said, I think thinking about, you know, role models for listening and like I said, listen to podcast is helpful. It's such a great format to and not say, I'm not wonderful to see on video, of course. It's a it stimulates different parts of your brain.

I don't know. There must be Neuroscience around this, and because it's audio, but there's still a visual component to listening because at least in my case, it's like I'm sort of creating a, I don't want to. It's almost like the podcast is the soundtrack for a film that I'm like, directing in my head in the same way that sometimes music will have that effect for me as well to that, you know, different kinds of music gives me different.

Kinds of booths. Might make you like imagine Situations are memories or stuff like that. And what I love about podcasting is like, that's the thing is that you get to you, get to become like I said, sort of empowered, as a as like I said, almost as if you're writing the story too. Because it's how you're perceiving it in your head and it was a lot of fun.

So the podcast, do you listen to I used to listen to there's one and that's from like the the old Call of Duty era I guess especially on YouTube. It's called PK a pain. Killer already think it was like one of the perks of that. Video game, but they talked a lot about first and foremost, their own personal lives. And they're all YouTubers as well as video games and just what they do on a day-to-day.

And that show has now evolved. And has like, I think 600 plus episodes, I haven't listened to it in a while, but the first time I think 200 I've listened to all of the episodes probably about three or four times because also, I would have favorites and I would just put it on repeat and there weren't any more episodes back in the day back then, that was a big

one. Then I Coverture Rogan, which so, obviously one of the biggest pillars in the podcasting community and as of late, I've listened to less and less just because of TimeWise on traveling less. But what I do think is that podcast is interesting because you can speak but no one's going to hear you, right? Because you're listening into a conversation, you're a fly on

the wall. And the only thing you're doing is listening in, and sure you can have your thoughts and you can vocalize them but no one's going to hear them. So I think listening to podcasts in and of its own, that might be kind of the way you You teach yourself or you train that listening skill, that you have because there's nothing else you can do. You're just in listening there, it'll just like when you're reading you're training yourself to process information through Reading.

I think it's the same with podcasting and that might be actually how I got better at listening. Now, that I've thought about it, you do you have that as well? As you mentioned, you listen to a lot of podcasts as well. Yeah, and different kinds in and in some ways, you know, to for kind of stuff. So like I listen to a Two studies podcast because they've talked about. I always they go deep on like Niche topics.

Like we're going to look at the arrival of this particular religion and this island and the 1600s. It is just these random things you get exposed to. And and then also what I think that I want to mention another point to is that for a lot of people that are thinking about, oh, I'd like to start a podcast, right? It seems like everybody wants to do it. So lightweight format, It's relatively easy to get started, you know, in terms of setup costs and stuff like that.

The really important thing about listening to good podcast or

ones that have a lot of you know, people that are a lot of listeners. Let's download etcetera. Why are they listening? All right, and I really don't want to say this in a negative way, but if someone like I said, when I had my first YouTube channel and stuff like that, it was just an absolute disaster. It's because we weren't thinking enough and getting feedback, you know, be feedback.

Obsessed about what are people actually interested in watching, you know, what's in it for them, going back to this thing of the attention economy. I highly recommend people to check this out because there's a lot of really good insights as to why is someone going to care about your content? I like, for example, this is this conversation right now? Who knows how many people are going to listen to it and what they're going to get out of it. You know, what's the value prop?

You've really got to put yourself in other people's shoes and think selfishly for them. Why are they going to Care? Chances are, when you're starting out, you're going to make lots of mistakes unless you're focusing on a super mega Niche where you have a lot of very detailed Val. On a particular subject. Yeah, but to stand out it's really hard because so many people are doing it. So you got to be thinking about what's going to be. You know, what's the hook? What's in it for this person?

Don't ask offer, what are you offering your listeners? And so with different podcasts, different things that you get offered. Like I said with the religious studies thing I get to reconnect with my University experience. If you like my degree was worth, something that was worth going into lots of student loan debt. The way with other podcasts, the

one that I've listened to you most loyal lie, For the last five years and is actually it's been incredible. Because I've been able to meet some of the founders sound Engineers people that have been involved in it, it's called ear hustle, and it's a, it's a podcast that's produced by incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people in San Quentin prison in California, and it's become. Now nominated for a Pulitzer Prize, like I said, they've created a book, like, they're now on.

I feel bad about not knowing exactly how many seasons are then, but like nine or ten, the Will host was released from from prison some years ago and now others are also getting out and I was able to meet in person, wonderful human being goes. By his artistic name is Maserati. He shout out to him. And so being able to connect with them, because the stories are so powerful. And it's also from people, whose voices, we never hear and who deserve to be listened to and it's extremely powerful.

It's not for every audience has a lot of similar stories are Very hard, but at the end of the day, it's an extremely Human Experience. And so that's the value that I get from it there. A lot of other things that people might, but it's the reminder that incarcerated people in formerly incarcerated. People are people and they have emotions and stories and successes and failures just like the rest of us and there's just a lot that can be learned from

that. So anyway that's that's been like one of my go-to ones and the now I'm listening to an anyway but I like I'm the technical side with with crew.

That is when I got into the daytime, cabernets Community, I was absolutely terrifying. Like, yeah, I've been working in Tech. I'm not a developer, I'm not a devil. Obviously, I don't have that those technical chops and so I was crushed by imposter syndrome. Like I gotta start listening to stuff and I don't care what it is and I run. So when I go for runs, listen to kubernetes podcast and then I would stop when something interesting comes up, I send

like a message. I have a dock and so I just like, write down names or stuff like that. Look at the show notes, that's been very very helpful for me. So I do recommend amend people, no matter what field you're getting into. There's somebody out there who's creating content around it. Yeah. And if they're not, maybe that's a niche that you could feel.

I like that a lot. I was smiling pretty with a big smile because I recognize myself in there when I used to run and listen to audio books or podcasts and it's something interesting with pop-up I would stop and make a note. I do jump roping as well, and that's it makes it easier to stop and be like, put it away and make a note, just for thoughts. And I mean, writing it down gets me thinking and I can beat back to it later.

I write a lot more notes than I read back, sure, but it does help me in it. Yeah, yeah. Information because you don't have the stress of like, oh, I hope I don't forget this do no, it's right down the you have to worry about it. Maybe like you said, maybe won't look at later but it but it's very helpful to be more proactively consuming that information and then putting it putting the information to some kind of actions. However small they might be but I definitely read it very, very

useful. To do that, you know, for sure. I mean, you mentioned like, this was one of my thoughts.

I had as well coming from a non-technical background and finding yourself in a technical space. I think imposter syndrome is going to confront you at some point. Did you like through researching? Did you kind of figure out how to deal with it by gaining the knowledge that you thought you were unaware of initially? Or you were actually unaware of initially or what has helped you kind of face imposter syndrome?

Wow. Yeah, this is something I've talked about a fair amount but now looking at today in the conversation that we're having, it's interesting. The different things we talked about, I'll probably give a slightly different from more nuanced.

I suppose, you know, the math quite often and I'm very, I'm very open about it. Like I've never written a line of code in my life and I thought about different times and now there's actually a thing to do with programming that relates to music and I want to check that out more. Because if I can find something more related to something that already like it's going to be easier.

But in the beginning was really hard and And but I it's interesting too is that I had also confronted it when I started working for that for your software development companies and and and so I probably needed to give myself more credit, but the problem was that in the in the beginning of doing interviews, with really talented, extremely experienced database, Engineers Sr, he's people with very high profiles in both vendors and in the user organization.

And so I get in there. I'm like, well, what am I supposed to ask this person? And I mean, I, and now I can kind of, you know, I can run with it because I know enough of the different areas and and Trends and pain points and things like that. You know, that even if I'm not understanding, I know, full disclosure sometimes 70 to 80% of their answers because they're getting lots of technical details. I can follow along and of the

buzz words. Yeah, but my abilities are like, obviously I can't say, oh, the same thing happened to me when I spun up that cluster, And so I have to then look at other

angles. It means two different things in my case getting and I want to do this more, getting a co-host, have those technical chops because they're going to be excited about talking to this person and they will be able to dive deeper than on those areas that the other person would like to go deeper on with me than it might be a little bit limited or I can contextualize until the beforehand.

Like hey just so you know run wild with the technical stuff as much as you want or tell me questions that you would like me to ask you if that's what we have in our our speaker form is like what questions would you like to be asked? And And then also, you know, sourcing questions from

different people. But for example, like you get different kinds of acronyms in in like with kubernetes, whether it's, you know, Cube CTL The Logical State could cuddle or, you know, like, At first, I was like, rbac and I got everybody says are back from whoops learning learning by doing a failing. Yeah. But that's, you know, it was really, really hard. I would say for a lot of folks, though, too is just that it's

Important. If you can get feedback from people that can be gentle, but also to remind you, this is the big thing, right? I've been my own worst critic, like number one. Worst critic is me of me. And you know something, somebody asked me the other day but you know, like is there someone who's telling you that you're

really bad at a lot of stuff? I like, well, there is, yeah, it's me that, but apart from that, I don't have like And I don't say it's in the center saying, oh wow, I'm so good at whatever. But but it's, but it is that I think we're just too hard on ourselves. Very often. It's that's why getting

feedback. I waited too long to ask other people in the community space, like, hey, I have no idea if this is going well or not, like, can you please like, let me know a little bit of either a, you know, how I'm doing well, or how I'm doing on these particular areas and then be much, more importantly, how I could improve them because that saves you

time. I am in suffer like, I suffered so much because of not knowing and and I and also in the beginning to like, okay, vanity metrics obviously everyone's to see more, subscribe to more downloads more this more that.

And then there's also, you know, qualitative things about how many and you know how many people from our community are creating content to bring other people, you know, to the community like you know, how many conversations are we having with top-level people and then use organizations? And it's not just a number, but just the fact that you do Doing it or like consciously aware of it? I would say if I could go back in I definitely would have reached out. Use the once again, leveraging.

My network of people that I know that could have said like hey like you know I think just so you know when I did this I did it this way or that way. So I would say feedback and also the importance of mentoring, which is another way of

guaranteeing feedback get in touch with. Somebody asked, if they're willing to meet once every two months, you have a document where you can put down and outs

and things like that. So a lot of it can be done asynchronously and you can meet like a Once a month, once every two months for a 30-minute call, even a 15-minute call, it's like hey this is where I'm at. I just want to check this in this not and for your mentors as well to if there's anything you can offer them in exchange, you know, in my case like hey I can make a video or we can do this or do that. I can contacts networking and whatever you put anything like

what is it, how can I help you? And I think there's always a way that you can get some kind of an exchange there but I mean, in your case have like what kind of feedback do you seek out? Have you ever thought about having a mentor do you Have a mentor without knowing that was actually a mentor to someone who gives you advice what's your experience there?

Yeah, I mean, especially early on right when you were in that place and you don't really feel comfortable in those conversations or those meetings or even though sometimes the work environment especially if you're new and early on, I would ask someone. I trusted that was in that conversation or in that environment like and tell them. This was a difficult conversation for me. Like what how did I come across for you? And I would ask that to some people.

I trusted some people I really Have a connection with yet, and that brought us closer together and they gave me honest feedback, they were like, well, these are the things I saw. And these are the things I then responded with and they were like, oh, I didn't I didn't see any of that, right? Because your perception of yourself is a very critical one, very harsh one. I 100% recognize that and I agree with you, right? That puts a burden on you, that

is stress innate stress. And if someone can load off that burden and be like, well, these are the things you do really well. And these are the things, I think you can focus on. On and sometimes they won't even say what you can focus on because they only saw like the

positive things. Even though you have all the negative things in your head, I think that's such a relief, listening to the someone's say that and giving you that feedback, you also have to be like a little bit as harsh on yourself when someone give you criticism and critique, right? Because that is feedback that comes from a good place. That means they care and they can see you do better with the

things they have in mind. And with that in mind you can be less harsh on yourself and Focus on something you can work with and work towards. I think that's a way more healthy mindset than just being in isolation and trying to figure out. If you're doing the right thing just taking that step and asking for someone to give you feedback I think is going to be very very much a relief in your career Journey. Much much agreed and I think

that's, it's a simple as saying, this is my perception and that's the thing. We have to tell ourselves like a perception is just a perception bounce that off. Somebody else. A do you would you agree or maybe I'm off here in my case. Been very off about a lot of things, but I needed that confirmation from someone external who I trust and respect. And, and sometimes, you know, in from multiple angles and multiple sources. I would also say, culturally

speaking. Dutch people, People are better equipped to get and give feedback because Dutch people, I didn't compare to Americans but for direct so and I love that. And same thing, I can work with an amazing person. So, long kailash is French for French people. Nothing is ever good enough. Everything is always shit, but that's really healthy because it pushes you to do better.

Also, once get, respect yourself and can election stuff when I say about that is because being American Americans are classic for like dancing around, you know, something that's And say, oh, it's phenomenal. And it's like, oh if you hear that means probably awful. Yeah. Are they, it's interesting. I've heard that one. It's different. Oh that's that's interesting. Total crack. And so that's why it's like but I understand they do have the intention to offend you.

So terrified of offending you that at the end of offending you more by not telling you the truth and once again I'm generalizing to Country 323 million people don't get in and I do not do. I completely do that because I don't want to. I don't want to hurt somebody's feelings, but if they're genuinely asking, you can see it in a nice way. And once again, this is just my

perception. Here's my feedback as somebody else, you're going to get a different answer but I think it's really important to build that into any process that you're doing in your life so that you don't beat yourself up too much more realistic. And so, that's why a lot of people stop their ideas because they're expecting too much in the first two episodes of the first, you know, three podcast

or whatever they're doing. Yeah, it just takes time and most the time you're First thing I'm probably not going to be very good at least my case but that's just part of the process of getting to the next step. Yeah, your case. You were very lucky that you just showed up and that's but it's great and I'm really happy for you. It was your case. So yeah, this is great stuff. Absolutely. I have one final question, which I still had in mind of asking because you're one of the few

people that actually puts their can only link somewhere on their social media. Like I saw it, it's on your Twitter. I don't know if I'm your LinkedIn but people can reach out to you and schedule something and have a conversation with you. First of all, do a lot of people do that because I assumed like a lot of people would and the second of all like what is the most interesting conversation you've had through that.

Oh, that's really good. So yes, my calendar link is on my Twitter actually, probably should put up my LinkedIn. One of the things that I'm working on, in terms of organizing, myself, better is having very specifically blocked off times for specific things. I imagine you as well, with podcasting, you know? Like, all right, do the recordings on Fridays. We do on Mondays, whatever.

And and so for me, once again, the part of the past was like I'm available at all hours to do everything that I do really bad idea that's hard and it's paid and And a it's a big learning. So now it's like okay these calls and these things happen on these days, there will be exceptions because Global you know, you talk to people all over the world and I do too. And so I was got India's either three and a half or four and a half hours ahead, depending on the time of the year.

California's, nine hours behind except for one part of the Year where the eight. But so, yeah.

In that sense with the calendars that and I'm really going to add more Focus to it because of, you know, started interview folks that are the He's based interviewing folks that are in the ADHD space so that everything's very well targeted very well explained and that also on every calendar Link in order for me to be better prepared for the call to get as much out of it is informing the person can you please send over these three and three answers to these questions before we have a

conversation to be as productive as possible for me as well as for them. And that way I can prepare, I can be thinking about, okay, these are the different things you can do here. So, going back to your question about, like, what kind of conversations am I having? I do a lot of mentoring. Done with young people that are in the kubernetes face and they need mentoring for guidance on how to get started contributing to open source projects that

kubernetes. I've had so many conversations about this, that I'm actually going to create some videos that I want to share with them before we meet. So that then they can already be prepared because when you see that you're answering the same question all the time, it's okay. It's not a problem for me, but to make it easier for others out there to get to the next step. It's like don't worry I just took care of the first few steps

for you. Yeah you just you just gotta watch these fall of action points and then we'll move. Move on once we have a conversation and will actually be talking about something that's more of an advanced phase, right? So I do a lot of calls around that and also, you know, as by extension, everyone's always thinking about, you know, how can I get a job, internship,

stuff like that. Some, like, favorite things that I've done in, in my professional experience, been working with working with younger, folks, and also, unemployed people and being able to be a part of like those situations, even if the smallest step where like, you see that you can have an impact to make a Friends, those things like I would pay to have those opportunities, so like those are those like I said, most of the things are around that, but I learned a lot because the

questions and doubts that people have, and I've learned that I can provide a space where it's because I always say it like this. It's like a doctor or psychologist. If you don't tell me your problems I can only. I can only help you as much as you're willing to share your difficulties because if I don't know them, I can't possibly propose anything and perhaps Apps. I may know somebody an extensive

network spend a lot of time. Connecting people with different initiatives into the more information. You give me in the more precise. It is the better. This is going to be for everybody and like I said, a lot of conversations are around that. I'm definitely excited to branching out into other areas and in in and I love what you're doing of, you know, talking to people that are in a technical or business space.

But then you also involve lots of other elements, not same track and might want to try to help you, but But but no is that I think these kinds of conversations are wonderful and to do it in public and even better. Because not only is it good for your own Learning Journey, but it a lot of other people. It gives them lots of different opportunities to connect with different elements, and I think

that's an amazing. So, yeah, I'm hoping to have like, and then the now, like I said, with the ADHD, think I'm going to come, you know, having more conversations with people. First, we just do like an intro call as you do as well, which I think is great because then it's going to guide you a little bit more like, yeah. Yeah, I do have a standard format with ADHD think with ADHD people, you don't need any format because we can be talking about Jurassic Park and then we

can talk about the stock market. So it doesn't matter in the same sentence and but still, I think it's helpful for the audience and we're always tackling certain things. Yes, there's going to be room to go around to different areas, also, from a Content organization perspective. In my case, then I know that I can separate these things into chunks. You can have quote, videos things like that. It makes it easier because it is someone's home. 45-minute reporting.

That's a big ask. And I don't want to make it easy for him and show you the highlights. So anyway, these are the conversations that I'm having and looking at more. I like that. I'm thinking about that myself as well. I think that could be an interesting experiment just to see what conversations and what problems people have and why they come to me in the first place with those.

I think just it's an interesting experience in a learning for me, but I've Loved this conversation so far but I'm going to round it off here. I love talking about podcasting listening everything to do with kind of your career. Are in your perception on things. I could do this all day actually, I could go on for hours but at some point we actually have to end of the

episode. So that was what that's what I'm going to do. Is there anything you'd still like to share with our audience before we round off? Um hit me up. I think I like talking to people of all different kinds of backgrounds and what's one of the cool things while to about being a freelancer is that I'm going to touch so many different areas and in four different

positions. Some people may not have that kind of Freedom, that's like I could be doing this over here and one moment and I could be doing something else in another area. But I love talking to people, I love learning from people. And so, yeah, just in particular, as well too for non-technical folks that are in Technical spaces. That's something that I'm really interested in doing more as well.

And so yeah but people can see all the different things I'm involved in. If you like that, something might be interesting to reach out and see what's going on. Be more than happy to do. So I'll be in Amsterdam in April. I don't know when this will be coming up for this in the past and the future. But but anyway, I hope to be able to hang out with you in person. Absolutely. And yeah this is wonderful. So I think so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Awesome. Thank you so much Bart. Feel free to hit him up. I mean, this is a scandal, he's on the LinkedIn, so that'll be fun. See, how many people hit your from the podcast. But in any case, thank you so much for listening and make it up. I'm gonna put all Bart's socials in the description below. Check him out. And with that being said, I will see you on the next one.