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Let's be honest, it's harder now than ever to find unbiased information. It's harder now than ever to find news that doesn't have a slant. So we have to have the skills to discern some of those things.
Welcome to Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev, a podcast on parenting business and living life intentionally. We're here every week to bring you thoughtful conversation, making your own path to success, challenging the status quo, and finding all the ways we're better together. Here's your host, Kosta Yepifantsev.
Hey, y'all, it's Kosta. Today I'm here with my guest, Dr. Elizabeth Lisic, Assistant Director of BIRTCH Professional Learning Center at branch alliance for Educator diversity, whether it's in your own family or a campus of 10,000 students, you're uniquely skilled in identifying, nurturing and maximizing the talent of those around you. Would you mind telling us a bit about your professional work and what it means to the everyday person?
Absolutely. So I love that that is absolutely my goal to identify, nurture, and maximize the talents of those around me. And I hope that's what I do every day. But, you know, when I think back over my professional journey, my career trajectory, I guess we could say it wasn't necessarily planned, I knew that I always wanted to be in a role where I could support other people. And so my limited experience led me to this idea that I was going to be a
counselor or social worker. And so I spent my undergraduate time majoring in psychology and really kind of digging in with the expectation that that would be the future planning, graduate programs and master's in social work, the whole nine yards there. And I spent several years actually working host undergraduate degree as a
support coordinator. And so support coordinators, the basically have the opportunity to go into homes of individuals with developmental disabilities, and really do exactly that coordinate request, coordinate the services that they receive, so that we can ensure that all of us have the opportunity to have the best supports and
services available. And so doing that, really, it continued to stir in me this idea that supporting others, and finding ways for all individuals to have access to high quality services and education mattered to me. And so I took a turn from what I expected then and actually enrolled in a Ph. D. program at Tennessee Tech. That program was an exceptional learning. And my concentration was in program
planning and evaluation. And so within that field, I mean, it can be very broad, but it does all center around education, and the supports that students and educational programs receive, and how do we use data to make sure those programs are evidence based and align with what our students, these kids, us our society really need? Right. And so, through that program, I had the opportunity to do a lot of really cool things work with some amazing people. I got to you know, I taught classes at
Tennessee Tech. And, you know, that really did affirm within me this idea that I had a place in in the education world, right that I wanted to connect with students that I wanted to understand where they were coming from some of my favorite experiences were teaching. I taught a lot of, you know, junior level classes, maybe where sometimes we had transfer students coming in from maybe a
community college. And I would always love when my class was the very first class they ever had a Tennessee Tech because that was an opportunity to say, It's all new to you, but you've got someone here, I'm gonna walk with you on this journey. I'm next to you. And so being able to provide that support was
really powerful. And during my time at Tech, I was able to work in the Center for assessment and improvement of learning, which was a grant funded lab where we researched the impact of the things we were doing in courses On students critical thinking, their ability to problem solve real world problem solving, critical thinking, creative thinking, these are skills that we all have to use every day in order to just be successful in
the world. And so as we studied those impacts, we were able to use that research to identify strategies to help students maximize their potential in those areas. So again, being able to support students throughout their journey. After I left Tennessee Tech, I moved into a role that the branch alliance for Educator diversity.
And that same thread has continued because in this role, I'm able to support not just individual students, but the educator preparation programs that prepare future teachers and work to ensure we partner with those programs to ensure that they are able to produce highly qualified, highly prepared diverse teachers to really impact, greater impact to go broader to go further and impact all of the pre K 12 students in communities all across our
country. And so when I think about how does that matter to the everyday person, I think the takeaway for me is that thread that's gone through that education matters, and educators matter. And that within that supporting education, is truly building all of our future, our kids future, our society's future. And we all have a part to play.
So as you're going through this research project, right, so how long was it?
So I worked there for about 10 years? Okay. Wow. So
that's a lot. As you're going through this research project, like what did you find are the main barriers or the main issues like we talk about education, and the problem with the education system? You know, we say there's federal problems, there's, it goes down to the state, it's a local problem, whatever it might be, you know, it's a lifestyle problem. It's a things that are happening at home, whatever it is, but you are obviously a person that's researched this
topic. So what did you find out that, you know, contributes to the issues in education? Yeah,
well, I think the biggest takeaway would be there is no one thing, right? And that's the most least interesting answer. But I really do think that when we think about education, and when we think specifically about this work, we were doing around creative thinking, critical thinking skills, real world problem solving. I think one of the greatest obstacles is this, I'm going to call it information literacy. It might be media
literacy. But this idea that we have to continue to train ourselves to promote the skills to approach all of the information we're receiving with this, this critical eye, not that we are critics of everything, but that we understand cognitive bias, that we understand how we may lean into certain things, because it's an invited inference. And as we do those things, we build the skills to be able to step back and be responsible
consumers of information. And I think if we understand that, when it comes to critical and creative thinking skills, I think we can train and prepare students for that ever changing
world. And I think beyond that, man, I think it part of it is realizing that we do all have a part to play whether you are a concerned citizen, you're a voter, if you're a lawmaker, if you're a parent of kids in the school system, if you're a community leader, if you're an educator, we truly do have to work together to advance these things. And it can't be about political gain. It can't be about what I need or what I want, because there's kids on the line, and those kids are
future. And so at branch Ed, which branch lines for Educator diversity, we go by branch Ed, oftentimes, and we talk about educational ecosystem, and that none of us are operating in education in isolation. And if we are, then we probably need to ask some questions about that. But really, representation matters, stakeholder voices
matter. And so it can't just be one person, whether that is the best intentioned person in the world, making those decisions about the education for all of our students, we really do need the voices of multiple diverse perspectives in the room to really understand what our students need to succeed. And
this may sound like a dumb question, but throughout my entire school career, all they talked about was obviously once you learn how to read and you learn, like basic arithmetic, all they talked about was, were teaching you how to critically think like, why do I need to learn
geometry? It's because you need to learn how to critically think, you know, why do you need to know all of the different dynamics of science because you need to learn how to critically think so if it's built into our K through 12 system, and based on your research, it seems that we still have quite a ways to go and more importantly, the practical applications of being successful in life. Why are we not getting there? If we say we are Why are we not quite bridging the gap?
So I think there are several factors. I think one is intentionality, I think that we can intend to teach these skills. And this was part of what we tried to look at is just saying we're doing it or just asking certain questions probably isn't enough. But it's multiple opportunities to practice these skills in varied
contexts. And I think that's one of the things is, when we look at critical thinking only within one particular discipline, it can be difficult for our brains cognitively, to transfer that out to other disciplines or other things as well. So just because I understand how to think critically about this word problem in geometry, it doesn't necessarily mean that when I see a conspiracy theory on tick tock that I have the ability to really look at it from multiple perspectives, I think is the
groundwork. Sure. And I just don't know that we go far enough. And that's where that intentionality piece comes in.
So you have over a decade of experience in professional development, and student learning, specifically related to outcomes such as critical and creative thinking, as a parent yourself, how have you used this background to help your children succeed?
So I think that, first off that that experience that I had allowed me the opportunity to zoom out and really think about the impact of these skills on our society and see, with a little more clarity, maybe why it mattered to me as an individual. And I think it started there, I had to understand that. And so then, when I went to my students in my classroom, it was about teaching the value of diverse perspectives, and that the first answer might not be the only answer. The power of creative
problem solving, curiosity. It's some of these things. So I think as a parent, I want all of these same things for my kids. In full disclosure, that's not always as easy as it is in a classroom where I've built a syllabus, and I know what we're doing, partially because of my own, we'll call them toxic traits,
right? I'm a fixer. And so it's much easier for me, I want to jump in and fix it for my kids, even though I believe wholeheartedly in the power of failure, failing forward, learning from that, and really reflecting on it. And so that growth mindset, I have to hold myself back from stepping in. And so I don't know if anybody
can relate to that. But I want to let them fail and learn from that in this protected space while I still get to be their parent, for me as a parent taking what I've learned part of that is, how do I create safe spaces for that learning to happen, where you can fail, and it has no bearing on who you are as a person. Instead, we're going to look at it from that growth mindset of what did I
learn from this? I think helping them strengthen their creative skills and understand I mentioned invited inference earlier. And I think we all practice this. One of the examples I would use with students I've used with my kids, I think we all would benefit from kind of thinking about it is okay, so imagine there's a headline, and it says, increasing ice cream sales have led to greater shark attacks.
And the invited inference is oh my gosh, like we need to shut down the ice cream trucks, people are dying, because of the ice cream trucks. Get them out of here, like so what I would challenge my kids then if we see a headline like that is Could it be that ice cream sales increased during the summer, but also increases during the summer beach attendance, right? So it has nothing to do with the ice cream attracting the sharks, but instead, there's more people
there to attack, right? And so thinking about things differently, like that critical questioning that I think is important. So when we see headlines and news as a family, we invite them to question and think critically about that. Think from another perspective that maybe you've never thought of before, most frequently. My son, Evan, he's 13. And he was doing a research report. He was doing a presentation on missing
persons cases. He came and he was like, did you know these particular countries and these particular states have the highest rates of missing people? It's looking for everyday opportunities to step back and say maybe, maybe that is it. But could it also be that these other countries that you're talking about don't have any infrastructure setup to report
missing people? Or maybe you know, the news doesn't reach us the same way or so just thinking about different perspectives so as a parent, so far from perfect when it comes to this, but those are the types of things I try to take my professional experience and marry them with. That was parenting pieces,
but you have a full time job. They do and you're also your kids are homeschooling. And so are you the active educator in the home? Are they a part of like a program where they're able to do certain modules or work? Yeah, allow you to do your full time job? Yeah,
it would be? Yes. And is what I would say. So yes, primary educator, however, they utilize online programs that have real teachers, right, that are also able to provide that direct instruction. So I'm able to come alongside them in more of a support role to help further that understanding. And then we do extra things that I get to support them. And so right now we're doing something called Genius Hour, every week, they
have a different topic. And every day, they spend an hour researching that topic, and then coming up with a creative way to present it to my husband and I at the end of the week. So it's things like that, that allowed them to stretch, they're pretty independent in their schooling as well. And so that helps, but yeah, it's quite a bit some days more than others to manage. So
just finish this sentence for me, when my kids graduate high school, I want them to be what
I want them to be empowered to reach whatever goal they set for themselves. And so whatever that looks like, today, they believe the sky's the limit, and if they can graduate high school, still believing the sky's the limit, I will feel like it was a success,
where you homeschool. I was not. Okay, so how did you develop these skills in public school?
I think that many of these skills, I did not develop graduate school.
Okay, interesting. I think that the practical applications of life need to be more emphasized throughout school, to enlighten like you've said to navigate these different landscapes. Like, yes, it's important to learn how to critically think but critically, think for what purpose? Sure,
exactly. And it's the application. To me, it's the application because skills are only meaningful within the context of application. So one of the things that I used to say when I would talk to faculty is, you know, we have an opportunity, you're already teaching your students biology, your biology faculty member, you're teaching your students biology, they're gonna walk out of your class, and they know biology. But can they think like a biologist, because that's a little bit
different. It's so it's the application of information is really where critical thinking comes in. And so I think that oftentimes, if we separate those things too much, then we can dissociate the very application of the skills that we need to be successful.
So if you're educators in grad school, or maybe your educators in college may not have those skills, they obviously don't have those skills in public schools. So I mean, like what separates the educators that you're building through the birch Professional Learning Center, versus just I guess, educators that that don't go through the program?
Well, you know, I want to be really fair to educators. And the fact of the matter is, they are succeeding, they are doing an incredible job, and it is in no way a hit on them. A lot of times it is so beyond what they have been allotted the time and
the freedom to do. And so you know, when I think about the requirements that are placed on our educators, it is really not shocking, that they don't have a lot of of time, or freedom to go in and create, you know, these spaces where students can innovate, that they're still finding ways to do it. And that's what I love. I say, continuously. My kids are homeschooled right now because of our life and what it looks like. But our public schools here in Putnam County are next
level, they're amazing. And I have full confidence in our teachers. And so I think that all of the tools are there, all the ingredients of the recipe are there because we have these incredible teachers that all they want is to see our students succeed. There are barriers. And it may be curriculum. It may be you know, the way certain things are set up. It may be time, but they have found incredible ways to navigate within them. Can we push it further? Well, of course, that's everything. Yeah.
But in no way, is it? There's something missing in our educators. I think I have full confidence in our educators and they just
need more support. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. Speaking of your children, many listeners might know you as Ellie lithics mom, she was a 2023 cook the lifestyle mover and shaker and she's an actress that's worked with several Netflix and peacock productions. What's it like to have a child star?
Oh gosh, you know, parenting is always an adventure. I don't care what your kid does. Parenting is an adventure. And this particular adventure that we've gone on with the kids has been unexpected, but fine. l Hi. has really been been blessed to work on some incredible productions. She worked on pain Hustler's for Netflix, with Emily Blunt and Chris Evans. She worked on Gotham nights, which was a show on for universal on the CW
Network. And then she spent several months in Atlanta filming a friend of the family, which was on peacock with Colin Hanks and in a pack when Jake lacy McKenna grace, just like amazing people. And so I think, what's it like blitz new adventure every day. But that's just parenting. Right? I think that we've learned so much about this industry by walking through this with her, we knew nothing starting out, right. And so it's been full on learning for all of
us. And we really do have, you know, an incredible team and incredible village that walks through it with
us, you have agents, and like PR and all that stuff
they have they have an agent, and they have a manager. And so that really is incredible support system that, you know, probably dealt with a lot of really stupid questions for me along the way. Right? Well, I mean, you got to protect your child. Yeah. And that's first and foremost. And I will say, this is a side note, but there has been a lot of media attention lately on the dangerous like the Docu series that came out about Nickelodeon, things like that about, you know, the dangers of
the industry for children. And I will say what I have seen is the probably result of many of those tragic, horrible traumatic things that happen, but now, they really have revolutionized protections for children's industry. And it's very different world than it used to be. But even in that your mama bear like you're there, you're watching everything. So having that supportive team really does make a difference. How often do you have to travel? Well, for I travel for my job job, right.
And so usually, I don't know it with between conferences and doing professional learning at different universities, maybe three or four times a quarter. And then depending on the kids booking schedule, we we travel with them when they need it. And it varies tremendously. Right now we're coming off of a double strike, you know, the writers were striking and sag was striking. And so coming off of that it's a rebuilding time for the industry in many ways. And so it's been a lot quieter
lately. And so we've found other things to do to stay busy, right. But whenever they are working, we do and we my husband and I kind of trade out depending on our schedules, who's available to be with him on set, but we've enlisted family members, grandparents aunt, to go and be with them on set. Because I mean, that is no matter who else is there, they're always going to have someone there for them right advocating for them.
We can't neglect to mention your son, Evan Lessig, who is an equally talented and accomplished actor. How do you balance both the schedules, rehearsals, schoolwork and expectations? And what's your advice to parents who have children interested in acting or media of any kind, when
we talk about balance, I mean, life is full, but it's full of the things that we love. And it's full of the things that we choose. And as long as it's full of the things that I'm choosing, I'm good with it, I can I can make it work, right? That is like my Alex's life motto is like, we'll make it work, you know, and we figured it out, you know, so practical things, like, get that color coded Google Calendar and make it work for
you. Right? Share it with the people that need to see it, find your village of people that can be there with your kid when you can't, right. Because whether it is a, you know, work, travel, or being on set with one kid and somebody else needs to be at rehearsal, or whatever it might be like, we all have those things, find those people that
support you. And then I think for me when it think about like schoolwork and things, making those expectations really clear to your kids, whether it's their in travel ball, or they're an acting or they are a competitive dancer, whatever it is, is we can do these things. Because we also do these things, right? We don't sacrifice one in order to do the other. And I think that making those expectations really clear as has been pivotal for us. I mentioned that we
homeschool now. And that was a choice for us in this season. Because, you know, l had to miss several months of school because she was on set. And it was challenging to go back and forth between being in the classroom and being out and getting work set. And all our schools, like I said, best schools in the world here. They are. They're fantastic, amazingly, but we felt like a stressor to everyone else involved to you. Right. So we wanted to make it the best experience for our kids but also
for our educators. And so for us right now, it looks like that. But with that it does give us some flexibility with school and so if they are in tech week for a show, then maybe work is a little lighter that we could pick back up and it's even heavier the next week to make up for it. So that flexibility is a pretty Shadid for us, but even without that, I think those clear expectations matter. As far as for parents, a big thing
for us was training. We all hear those stories about, you know, a kid who was singing in the grocery store and was discovered and launched there. That's not real life like that is like maybe point 00 1% of this world, right? What it actually looks like is going to class after class and having classes on Zoom and followed by a dance class in person and doing training, but only because they want to be there. And that is a regular question we asked in our house. This so she want what you want
to do. We're doing it because you asked for it. You know, so funny thing about Evan and L. Like they've been doing stage acting. So Evan really started. And they did the Cookeville children's theater, summer camp, amazing, amazing camp. He did it before his kindergarten or around his kindergarten year, and ended up just discovering how much he loved being on stage. And so we did his first stage production and was like,
when's the next one? Right, so we started looking for more opportunities, and l jumped right in. And they both started performing regularly at the Cumberland County Playhouse. And we spent a lot of time on the road between here in Crossville. With that, but then they came to us in it was at the end of 2021. They came to us and they said, We want to try on camera acting. So really what led by them. And I think that would be my first advice for parents is it's got to be led by them, because it's
not easy. And it requires a lot of them. And if they aren't in it, it's not going to last and it's going to be painful for everyone involved, right? Yeah. But then be ready to immerse yourself in this world learn everything, because they're going to need you to know, if you're going to submit a self tape audition, what's your lighting going to be like? What's your setup at home to film like, it's things I never knew I needed to know. But now I know, right?
never acted, right? No. I mean, like in high school, or anything, maybe
like play here and there. My kids are doing way more than I ever did. Right? So nothing to that level. Right? And so yeah, I had to learn right alongside them. And Alex as well. And he has a lot of technical video production experience, which came in very handy when it came to, you know, taping some of these things and getting the right setup in our
home. But we've both I mean, I've listened to enough acting lessons now like, scene study that I know the questions to ask I had, but if I don't learn, I can't walk with them through it. Well, I
want to ask you one more thing before we move on to parenting. Specifically, I want to talk a little bit more about schools. So we've obviously established Putnam County has great schools, and the educators are phenomenal. You know, my kids went to all good and it was a great experience my kids went to Capshaw was a great experience. I've seen what Tina Francis has accomplished a Jerry Whitson, you know, all of these, all of these educators are doing a
phenomenal job. And you've done a lot of background research on our education system. This essentially is why I want to ask you this, when I listen to some of our lawmakers describe our education system as a whole. Right. So, you know, I think there was a state of the schools conversation that was had, and then some of our lawmakers came in, attended at the Chamber of
Commerce. And they said that we are not able to compete with other countries around the world, in terms of how we educate our children and prepare them for adult life. And so their solution is to, you know, essentially give school choice to everybody universal school choice, for that matter, and to give those $7,000 vouchers. Now you and I both know, and I'm pretty sure everybody listening on this podcast knows that $7,000 for private school is not going to cut it. Absolutely not
even a little bit. And, you know, obviously, there is a lifeline that's being taken away from our public schools, and in all honesty, reducing the support and then going in the opposite direction of what we need to do for our teachers. So you've done a lot of research on this topic. I know that was a really long winded question. But with the research that you've done, why do you feel like this is the direction that the state of Tennessee wants to go?
Well, you know, I think that there are some things that I do think on the surface sound like why not? Right, like, parents can choose, we're all about choice, right? And it sounds good. The issues I think often come when we start drilling down under the surface, and what does this mean not just for my kids, but for all kids? And so, to answer the why I think that there is not an easy answer to address, you know, some of the challenges that we
face in education. And I think sometimes, a response like this can seem like number For one, it can make parents happy. Right? And it can give them the power for this money, delineated for education give me the power of where I want to spend this for my kid. So on the surface, I think it can sound like a
possible a good possibility. But my hesitation, my concern, my reservations really do lie in the fact that when we give school choice in this way, we are primarily giving choice to students that already had choices. To me what that means is, if I am a student in a home, where my parent or parents are available to drive me to school, wherever they choose for me to go, then that probably means they're home when I'm getting ready. They're preparing breakfast for me, they're doing
these things. And so these are oftentimes children that are in more, I'm gonna say privilege homes. And I don't mean that in a political way. I just mean, they have the opportunity to have that support every single day. And so if I want my kid to go to the school and the next county, and that's my school choice, I can drive them there Right.
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dot com. Listen, growing up all I wanted was for my parents to drive me to school, but they were like Sorry, bro, you
got kids, right real life, bus all the time. A lot of students, that's not feasible, right. And so they're going to continue to get bused to the schools that they're zoned for. And so they don't have that choice in the same way. So to say it's choice, I think is a misnomer, because I think it's choice for some. And so we just need to go into this with our eyes open. And I think that that is a reality of it.
And I think with that, too, then oftentimes, what may be a unintended repercussion is that those students that don't have the same choice, are now in lesser funded public schools. Right. And we have to be real about that then. And so we can say, we're trying to fix a problem. But in all honesty, we are pulling funding away from schools that are already severely underfunded, right, and we just need to be real about what we're doing. Yeah,
I think one of the major tenants of being an educator that whenever I talk to teachers, one of the things that they always tell me is I just need more support, I need more money, you know, and we just have to, you know, call spade a spade, they need more money, correct? Because you can't take care of anybody else, you can take care of yourself. Absolutely. And you know, even in, I think, 55,000, if I'm not mistaken as a starting salary for a teacher, maybe a little bit less, maybe a little more,
but in that range. And nowadays, like it's hard to make ends meet, especially if you're a one income household on $55,000, in Cookeville, you know, that's not going to go very far. And
then you think so then what happens is what we see, and one of the things that we talk a lot about in our field is then we begin to lose those high quality teachers. And what does that then do continuation of our edge? So it really has got to look at the future. It's not just about today, it's how are we preparing teachers, but also creating schools that they can
be successful in. And whenever that underfunded, underpaid teacher walks into their classroom for the first time, they are responsible for so many costs within their classroom. So then, that can lead to further disparity in, you know, what some students receive in their classes versus others. And even more so than that. Oftentimes, our teachers that have the potential maybe they're great teachers and they're going to go on then they may move into another field, simply because
they can get paid more. It has nothing to do with their heart for kids. It has nothing to do with their desire to improve But they can go either work in another district or in another field and support their family better or just themselves like themselves? Absolutely. And what do we then continue to see schools that don't have enough teachers, schools that don't have enough funding, you know, at schools that don't have the resources that they need? So it feels a little backwards,
right? Osuna? Backwards, since you've done the research, why would we not want to pay I mean, like, as a business person, I'm thinking to myself, like, if I want to attract the best talent, I'm going to have to pay, you know, not just comparable to market rate, but above market rate, you know, because I want to bring people from other organizations to my organization, because they're obviously not going to make a lateral move most of the time, they want to make a move
or to make more money. So why would we not just say, you know, what, if we want to improve outcomes, we need to pay for
that. So instead of spending four months debating how we're going to effectuate the problem from all these different angles, you know, not directly, but indirectly, why don't we just directly fix the problem by paying these teachers more money and attracting more individuals that are well prepared not to say that our current educators aren't but just more, more than a more, maybe more and peeling back from those fields that they went to? Yeah,
I think, you know, I think you see some states that are really are pushing forward legislation around some of this and trying to make the environment more hospitable. It's for retention, teacher retention, because we've seen those high attrition rates. I don't know how to answer your question, because I don't know why. No, I
don't I just didn't work. I maybe saw something in the research.
I think that the answer is yeah, why right. But I think it is nuanced. Is that the only thing we need to fund teacher salary will? No, so there is other pieces to it as well, there's curriculum, there is, you know, really thinking about that there's so much money that goes
into that right there. And so really thinking about that, thinking about the partnerships between the programs that are preparing our teachers and the schools that they're going into thinking about how we, even in that, a lot of teachers potential teachers don't even make it that far, because they can't afford to take a semester or a year off for clinical
teaching. So we see programs in Tennessee has done a great job of trying to rule out teacher apprenticeship programs where teachers can be paid as they're going through that process. And we see that with apprenticeships and residencies in many other states as well. But that in and of itself also, isn't the only answer. It really is nuanced. I do think that the reason we struggle sometimes is because we do want one answer to fix our problem. And this is not a one
answer problem. But you know, my vote is let's start with what's working. That's always where I'm going to come back to is an appreciative inquiry stance where we say, what is working in our school systems. And let's double down on that. Let's push into that. Let's lean in there, because oftentimes, we can replicate the parts of it that are working, and where are those pockets of good? Where are those pockets of success, and I don't just mean success and test
scores. I mean, success in developing humans that are good citizens that are responsible. So as we see those things, then let's lean into those things. Instead, when we only come at it from a problem Focused Inquiry response, I think that we can really get depressed fast and feel defeated fast and just go to the easy answer. And I think our students deserve more. Yeah,
we don't need to blow it all up. Yeah, yeah. We can just fix starting with the good spots.
Let's start there. Yeah.
So I want to talk about critical thinking and creative development for kids, especially in the digital age. We hear constantly that this generation has no critical thinking skills. They aren't creative, and it's all because of phones. Is this true in our kids today? Different? No? Sure.
They are. Sure they are kids in every season are different. Kids in every walk of life are different. But that doesn't mean they're worse. Don't get me started on call it like labeling kids is bad kids are worse generation or Oh my know that. Yes, they are kids. The world is different. So sure. You know, our kids are living in an age where there is an absolute explosion of information. There's more information at our fingertips than we've ever had
possible. And so, we are as parents, as community supporters, as educators, we are tasked with teaching them to be responsible consumers of that information. And that is critical thinking. And so does it look like what I thought it would have looked like when I was a kid? Well, who cares? We got to move on. I think you know, there is A great deal of critical thinking required to sort through information and make decisions. I think about
kid kids are doing this. And this is where I'm saying, oftentimes, we lead, when it comes to kids, especially we do this with a deficit perspective. And we start looking at all the things that they're doing wrong.
I propose, like, let's focus on like an asset based perspective, where we look at, you know, the great things that are happening, we look at the kids that are learning how to digitally create art in a beautiful way, and how to, you know, push forward using these skills that are going to help them be successful. I think about you know, our kids, maybe it looks different than what we
thought it would. And maybe that's where we've got to come to terms with but think about a kid who wants a new bike, or wants a new gaming system, they have an opportunity, the critical thinking they're going to do is looking at reviews, read about it, look at what the different options are, and consider based on my context and my constraints, what is the best bike for me? Do I want to ride it on the trail? Or am I going to ride it on the road? Do I know how to use it yet? without
training wheels? Do I need it to be adjustable height? Do I want speed? This is taking in all that information? And it's figuring out how to make it work for the situation that they find themselves in? And so does that look like what maybe classically, people have considered critical thinking? I'm gonna say we need to expand our definition a little bit. And it's not just classical, you know, this is the way we
logically think. It's not just logic statements, and being able to, you know, be successful there. I think we got this expanded contemporary definition where it's really taking information, learning and applying those things. And so are kids different sure that we're adults? Yeah, it was the world.
I mean, I think a lot of times, we don't give enough credence to the fact and I interact with most of the times, like kids that are either in high school or fresh out of high school, you know, or into their 20s. And one of the things that I've realized, you know, because, yeah, I mean, it's hard to understand them, because we didn't grow up in the same generation that they did. But that doesn't mean there's
anything wrong with them. What I have found is just like, when we were growing up, and you didn't write with, you know, pen and paper all the time, you had access to a computer, and people that were born in 1960, were probably like, you know, why are you using that kids can't write anymore, you know, they don't use, they don't have proper penmanship, or they're not, you know, their writing isn't pretty, or whatever it might be, and other similar things that they said, We have to change how
we interact. So like, we're going through this AI revolution, and kids my age, in your, in your age, are going to be very comfortable in using AI and it's going to optimize the role now, it may create a mismatch. And I think a lot of reasons why as people that are employing younger individuals, why we can't quite break through to what makes them tick, is because we're talking in a different language. And most businesses operate in like the 20th century, these kids are like, they're in 2050.
Absolutely. We're still in 1985, you know, in the DeLorean. And
I think a lot of the systems that we've set up, whether it's a business world, or whatever, the education system is not caught up, right? I think that, you know, there's some some interesting research around, and it posits this idea of digital immigrants and digital natives, and the communication between so a digital immigrant who maybe didn't always have access to all
these digital pieces. And so they have to learn, and or not, there's a choice to learn or not, versus a digital native, who has always known right, they didn't have the experiences without and so is one better than the other will know. But do we need to try to imagine the perspective of the other and build systems where either can be successful? Right?
Absolutely. And I think that's where we miss it sometimes is we say, we don't care how you've learned or what you've experienced, or the world you've grown up in, it needs to fit in the world I grew up in. And that doesn't work, I think we're gonna continue to feel like we're beating our head against the wall, if we don't make some adjustments to those systems. And so I think that the tools that kids need to be successful
are different today. And the skills that they need to be successful are different today.
If you could give one piece of advice to parents on how to encourage curiosity and critical thinking for their children, what would it be,
I would say, look for opportunities to engage them and deeper thinking. I mean, they go back to what I said earlier, information literacy, media literacy. The fact is, there is so much information out there and that means there's really good information. And there's misinformation, you know, and disinformation which is differentiated in that it's intentionally misleading, right?
And so when we think about that, I think one of the biggest roles as parents but also just as adults in this society as educators, as fellow citizens is to really say, how do we become responsible consumers of all of this information? I think I said it earlier, but like, I don't just need to accept the conspiracy theory on tick tock, I need to dig in. I don't just need to accept grandma's post on Facebook, I need to dig in. Because there is a lot of
information out there. And I always would tell my students that because they would say, Well, you know, I heard this and this, and I'm like, Where'd you hear it? Well, I researched it. A search does not equal research, right? And so just because you searched enough on Tik Tok, or even Google whatever, it doesn't mean you research it ever is your evidence. Where's your credible sources? How
do you uncouple people though? Like, how do you uncouple you know, we had that Q anon thing, and it was just a pandemic of disinformation. How do you uncouple people that so, I mean, it's almost like it's, um, when they say things that are so just unreasonable? How do you bring them back to reality? And I was going to ask you about history. And it's a good time to ask like, do you think that maybe the reason why we have this outrage culture is because we
can't look back? Because we don't know what happened, because we never learned our history.
And well, I think we've learned sometimes I've learned a version of our history. And I think that that sometimes can contribute to that. Absolutely. Man, there's a lot in what you just asked, I'm going to try to unpack it a little bit, because I do have thoughts, what's new? But I think that around this idea of how do we navigate these very strong, closely held beliefs that are troubling, because perhaps they're not based in evidence? There's a lot of
research around that. And I think if we had it all figured out, I would be doing a different job right now. Right. But I think that there are so many pieces to it. But you know, one of the things on a more practical level that I have found in our work was that whenever people had those very closely held beliefs, it's very challenging. If you question that, it's very easy to become defensive. And so one of the things we practiced in our work, it's some research called
latitudes of acceptance. And the idea around latitudes of acceptance is that, we're going to start by talking about something that the very non threatening, and so we're going to examine it, and we're going to practice those skills, those critical thinking skills to really think about multiple perspectives, to think about the evidence to unpack what's really happening, we're gonna practice this on something that maybe I don't really care that much
about, right. And so we're going to talk about shark attacks and ice cream, right, we're gonna talk about some of these things that I'm not gonna get outraged and up in arms about, and it's only when I can use those skills there, that I can even begin to think about applying them to another setting, I taught a class at Tennessee Tech, and it was my favorite class to teach is called information literacy.
And we kind of did that we practice starting with, like some really fictional ideas, headlines that weren't, you know, necessarily real, or they were real as in they were in, I mean, I would pull them from NPR and pull them from wherever, but they didn't have real impact on the students, right? So we would talk, there's there, I remember, there was the headline that would come out, and it would say, girls that play soccer do
better in STEM. And it was like, Okay, maybe, but maybe it's also because soccer is kind of expensive. And they probably have parents that are available to drive them to soccer practice. Or maybe they have the ability to have tutors and have these additional supports and resources like eight can't sometimes doesn't look again, like the invited inference. So you start by talking about things like that, that I don't have a closely held belief about
right. But then I'm going to ask you to think critically about those things that you do. And I want to be clear, you know, I am a person of faith. And so there are some things when it comes to that, that I have had to say, this sits within my understanding sometimes, but that is a conscious choice that I make. Right, right. It's not just I'm going to blindly believe it is a conscious choice that I make. So I think there's
room for that. But what I think is problematic is when I'm going to say simply because of who said it or who didn't say it, or whatever it may be, what side of the aisle it came from that I'm going to believe this simply because of that, and I'm not going to check it for myself.
The actions that you're describing in a classroom is essentially what people use as an argument to say that they are essentially incubators for liberal institutions. Because yeah, you know, it's fascinating to
me, and that's interesting. And I think that's where we have to separate our fear from because if what we're saying is, what are we afraid of, if we're challenging students to really learn look for evidence to back up the things that they believe, and that they're going to stand behind and they're going to put their name behind, then what are we afraid of? To get them to lean in to researching it for themselves not
afraid of anything. But the people that want to keep the system the way that it is, they are afraid that enough people are going to wake up?
Well, I think that there is this this level of control that we lose, here's the thing is, at the end of the day, I can talk about these skills, and you may go out and most likely many, many will still not believe like I do, but I'm not afraid of like, that's okay. Don't have to believe like I do, right? I just want you to know why you believe what you believe, and that it be based in real infirm like real information that is evidence based. And that I think, is the
challenge. And let's be honest, it's harder now than ever to find unbiased information. It's harder now than ever to find news that doesn't have a slant. So we have to have the skills to discern some of those things.
And programming. I think it's a I think it happens at a very young age. And it happens in little snippets and tidbits. And that's what I want to talk to you about next. Before we wrap up. I want to talk about social media and your thoughts on children with social media, both of your children have a parent manage social media account. First, what does that mean? And what's your advice to parents when their children asked to be on social media?
That's a can of worms. So for us parent managed social media means exactly what it sounds like it means it is logged in on my phone, mine and my husband, we are the ones that field comments and messages and things like that. Because in all honesty, people suck. And like there are really terrible people out there, right. And so you have to go in with your eyes open. Now, I'll say, for me, technology is not the enemy. I want to empower my kids to have the skills to navigate it, you talked about AI
is not going away. I want to teach my kids the skills to use it responsibly and use it effectively. We talked about this in teacher prep too, because, you know, people are like all teachers can go get an AI generated lesson plan, okay, that's probably not going to go away. So let's teach them the skills to then look at it and see what it still needs to itemize it to make it fit for
their context. So I say all that to say when it comes to social media, Alex and I as parents, we are the gatekeepers, in a lot of ways. Right now we're the adults. And so when our kids got phones, we create a technology contract that they had to agree to, and stand behind. And my kids not going to have an app or social media account or anything like that, that that I don't understand or know, they're still young right now. So my kids are 11 and 13. Okay, so they are not, they don't have
independent social media yet. I know a lot of kids that do. And this is a part it really is a personal decision. But for me, I have seen the comments that come in. I've seen the the posts. Oh, yeah, it's a crazy, you know, it's interesting, because they like will do like Final reels and stuff like that, that they'll film and they had one that for whatever reason, it wasn't like, you know, you get to pick the reels that like people start watching, right. And it was not the one we would
pick, right. But it all of a sudden shot about it like over a million views that came with all the comments, right? Like, you must have the worst parents ever. What's wrong with you? Why do you look like this? All these things? Just stupid stuff, right? Because people suck. Yeah. And so why would I put my 11 year old in a position to have to feel that? Because I know, there are developmentally appropriate times for some of those conversations. Now, does
she know that? Yeah. Does she know that people say things online? Absolutely. We talk about it. I do let her and Evan as well, because he's a little older, but he still doesn't have it on his phone. But you know, if we have a post, and there's comments, they can get in, they can read, you know, though, after I've read them and talk about what they want to respond and things like that. So they're
involved in that way. But it is still something that I feel pretty passionately about guarding while they are developing those interpersonal skills to differentiate. This online person doesn't know me, they don't know anything about me, you know, and they don't get to speak into my life.
Right? Yeah. And it never used to happen on MySpace, you know, right. I mean, that's probably everybody's best ways. Right? He only said nice thing only.
I'll say and I'll say when we do choose to use technology, even beyond the on social media, we do use like bark like diagrams like that and help manage that. So we I highly recommend those things to parents. And I feel like I've said I have 17 Life mottos today. But one of them is clarity is kindness. And so to me, what that means is the expectations need to be clear.
Because if we're going to, like have good conversation around it, and we're going to continue this close knit relationship that we have with our kids, they need to understand the expectations needed to be clear. And that's certainly true when it comes around technology,
what age are you going to set him loose?
There's not a magic number for me. And I think that much to their frustration, I'm sure. But I think that it really depends on the platform. It depends on I think how things evolve, I will say, I am not afraid of technology. And I don't want to be afraid of social media, I think there's a lot of power that can be leveraged there. And I think that there's a lot of community that can be built there. Again, it looks different than the way we may have built community 2030 years ago, but
that's okay. But there are lots of challenges in navigating the developmentally appropriate level. And I think it's different for every case,
terrified, but once you set them loose, you don't know what's going to happen. And I think the anxiety comes from if you do too early, what are the negative ramifications? If you do too, we now see, you're just like, you know, you kind of like in between a rock and a hard place. You know what I'm saying to time it. So I
think you have to know your kid. And I think with that my strategy would be gradual release, we'd started these social media accounts, not because they want they needed social media, but because of the industry they were in, it was part of the process. But it wasn't something we were going to just let them loose on. But I think the next stage would be, you are at an age where you can manage your
own. But I'm still logged in. So you're not getting messages I'm not seeing you're not getting comments that you know, so there's that level of gradual release. And then ultimately, you work to that place of you now have the skills to discern, you know, these things you have this understanding of the strengths and the benefits, but also the pitfalls and dangers, and you're ready to be let
loose. Yeah, the last thing you want is, they move out of the house and they go to college, and they finally get Snapchat and go crazy, right? That's the goal, right?
I've told that story before. We're not gonna say who it was. Anyway, we always like to end the show on a high note, who is someone that makes you better when you're together? Well,
I would say without a doubt, my husband, Alex. So we started dating when we were 14 grew up together, right? And so we have now we're at a point in our life, we have been together more of our life than we've been apart, right? We were married at 19. So Young, so not for everyone. But we made a decision at that time of like, we're going to grow together versus grow apart. And it's
worked well for us. Because I think that, you know, we decided we're always going to be each other's biggest fans, we're going to find things to do together. We are executive pastors at a price point church, and we are able to work in that together, we get to do that part of our lives side by side, you know, building community, focusing on bringing people together. And so I'd say we're better together because we made a decision early on, not to pull
each other in the pit. I don't know if you know what I mean when I say that, but we can't both be down on the same day. Right. And so what we found is, you know, if I was having a day where I was just like, Ah, my job, I'm so tired of it. The last thing I need in all honesty, while it may feel good for him say yeah, you're right, that sucks. When it's really the last thing I need. What I need is for him to remind me of the the decisions we've made around practicing gratitude and lifting
each other up. And I know I know today it was hard, but remember that when you had last week or whatever, and not in a patronizing way and not in an annoying way, but just in it. You're not alone. And I'm not going to jump down there with you because it's not going to be good for us, you know, in the long run so our family always says we love first we're not perfect by any stretch, but we are I think we're close to each other needs. I think we're better together.
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Thank you for joining us on this episode of Better Together with Kosta Yepifantsev. If you've enjoyed listening and you want to hear more, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcasts. Leave us a review or better yet, share this episode with a friend. Today's episode was written and produced by Morgan Franklin post production mixing and editing by Mike Franklin. Want to know more about Kosta visit us at kostayepifantsev.com. We're
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