Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our [email protected]. I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. Only stuff that works There's been a lot in the news lately about teachers leaving the profession, even leaving the profession in the middle of the year. And you wonder what in the world is going on. Today my guest is one of those teachers who did leave in the middle of the year, and I'm very excited to be able to have a chance to talk with her and to find out a little bit about what her road was to leaving early. And talk about her experiences.
And so my guest today is Jene Tovar. Jene is a project manager for Oracle Guided Learning within Oracle University. Oracle University is one of the world's largest IT training businesses, delivering modern learning solutions to Oracle customer and partner ecosystem globally.
Janaye has worked with customers to deliver Oracle Guided Learning, an enterprise cloud platform that supports the creation of personalized, guided, and contextual user guidance and support, ensuring efficient adoption of Oracle Cloud applications. Janaye's career has been focused on training, adult learning, systems leadership, and change management.
She has her doctorate in organizational leadership from Pepperdine University and her master's in learning technology from Sacramento State University. For her undergraduate education, she attended the University of California, Davis, where she played basketball for four years. And she also had the good portion to play professionally for the club Olympique de Pau in Valais in France. And I'm sure I didn't say that well, and I'll have J'Nai repeat that.
So again, welcome our guest today, J'Nai Janay, it is so great to see you again. Now, I didn't tell you that I was gonna ask you this, but wanted to see what you had to say. Now, in the introduction mentioned that you had played professional basketball. How tall are you?
Oh now I'm safely about 6'2 but I was always listed as 6'3 when I was playing basketball at UC Davis.
Okay, so it's, so it was very clear when you were in front of a room, you were a tall person.
that's right.
And I want to think that I gave you the best opening you spoke.
Yes.
You remember what that was? You want it? Could you share that?
yes, I would say and I'll just, I said, I would say something to the effect of in case you were wondering, yes, I did play basketball. No, certainly. I mean, you were very instrumental in me having that opening line. That's for sure.
And you know what? And it always worked. Do you still use it? Although you're mostly online now, or do you?
funny, you know, what's funny is because I'll catch myself wanting to use because so much of my life, I think from an analogy perspective, in fact, it'll no doubt come up. Today or in this conversation, but it is through the lens of like sports analogies, or like, I just, I experienced things through the lens of being a former athlete.
And so when I'm online, I will say, actually, what I'll say is we haven't met, but when you, if you, if we did meet, you would see that I'm extremely tall and I would say, and I mean really tall. And that's how I, then I segue into, you know, the idea that I played basketball and different things like that. So,
Well, I, yeah I want to think that I have some, you know, contributing something that I've contributed that will last the rest of your career.
my gosh, sir. That I don't want you to worry too much about that. You can count on it. Heh.
So Janae, I said in the introduction that you were a teacher who left The classroom in the middle of the room in the middle of the room in the middle of the year. But could you bring us back a little bit your before you left the classroom? What your history was in public education in the K8
Yes. Yes. So, um, early on, I had the opportunity to be an intern where I was, while I was getting my credentials. So I did have time as a third grade teacher I was sharing a classroom with a mother, another more seasoned teacher. I. Surprised myself with a pregnancy that wasn't planned. So there was a little bit of a blip there while I and then my husband and I moved. So a lot of things.
Anyway, I, the reason I mentioned that is because when the district that we near where we were living was when is. The district that I applied to at the time when we moved. It's a little late from a hiring season perspective. So I did manage to get in at the district, but I was working as an English learner specialist at that point, English language development specialist for the district. So the position was kind of a district office position where it's.
Again, at the time it was, we would go to different schools and we would work explicitly with students who were designated as English learners that could be doing some low level admin stuff just from a in the state of California anyway, there's, you know, there's a little bit of reporting and different things like that, but also then primarily we were delivering small setting, small group kind of instruction at that point but With the intent that we were also resources for classroom teachers who had English learners in their classroom.
So we did a whole mix of things as district office employees, a mix of teacher support and education, but also delivering instruction to small group classes of students that maybe had, you know, that were lower levels of English proficiency, et cetera. So, in that, and that could have been from kindergarten all the way to eighth grade. It depended on the needs at the school. Then After a number of years of doing that, I pivoted back to the classroom.
Again, it was a third grade at that point at a school within the same district. So that's my experience in terms of classroom teaching or experience in the school district at that time.
day? And we met when you were working at the district level.
That's correct. Yeah. So you were, you know, contracted to work with one of the schools and a, one of my most cherished mentors at the time, Karen Contreras. She was the one that was largely responsible for bringing you into the district.
So it was because of that sort of connection that I. In fact, I was just reflecting on this because I was saying that I can't imagine what you must have thought of me because I just, I remember being just curious you'd done some trainings and of course I was like in love with with everything that you had brought in terms of, you know, explicit.
Direct instruction, you know, the fast framework and then thinking in terms of like how this was so beneficial for my background as an English, English language development instructor because, you know, I just was obsessed with the idea of efficiency and and all these things that you were bringing. So I think I just reached out to you at one point because I was curious about your own transition to from. You know, K 12, what have you, to being a consultant.
So I think, I recall, one of the first times I reached out to you was because I would, or not reached out to you, I can't even remember, but it was one of those things where I just like, was like, Hey, do you mind if I ask you? And you, of course, were very generous with what you, your experience had been. And that was the beginning of our friendship.
Well, I remember I don't know if you remember this, but I know I remember one of those trainings at the district office, and I actually can picture us being very near the rear entry door and you asking me questions. You were so curious. And I could tell from the very first time that I met you that you were very bright. And so I couldn't tell if your questions were to challenge me or if you were very curious, you know, and once I realized your sincerity about the questions.
That's when I was okay with us developing some sort of professional relationship because there are the, yeah, there are those people who just wanna, you know, get you, you know, they, they wanna get your question, but you were always you were always very sincere in that. So you went back to the classroom.
Correct.
And and tell us about that because you,
Yeah.
because that's a big theme today.
Right. Right. Okay. So, so, I guess, you know, one thing I want to just mention, I guess, as we're reflecting on my experience in the just with teaching in general, both of my parents are teachers. My grandmother was a teacher. I have so many memories of being teacher conversation adjacent. And so there's a lot of comfort to listening to teachers in my mind.
I associate it with like positive things like teachers talking about the problem solving that they have to do in the course of just running their classroom. Or, you know, I remember distinctly my mom and my grandmother. Talking about planning for a fifth grade social studies unit. So I have a lot of positive memories associated with that. My dad was a high school biology teacher, my entire childhood. Like I have no memories of him not being a high school biology teacher, obviously.
And so, and I grew up in the summers helping him clean his lab tables, you know, getting ready for the next school year. So I grew up on a high school campus. I just had a lot of really positive feelings around. Public school and teachers and campuses, you know, but I also remember thinking, I do not want to be a teacher and I don't want to be a teacher.
I've seen the dark side, you know, and but at the same time, there was this moment in my adult life where I thought, you know, I was newly engaged. I thought, you know, this would be a good. Career for me. I'd like to have kids. I don't know who came up with that myth that teaching is a great career for moms. I don't. It's a challenging career like any other career.
And so, anyway, the reason I mention that as a backdrop is when I went back into the classroom where I'd had my whole classroom, I had the blessing and the curse, really, of all the tremendous training I'd had. So I had seen I'd, I even recall participating in coaching cycles where you were doing the coaching. So I had, I knew what effective teaching looked like. I knew, like framework wise, how to approach a lesson. I actually have no problem being around any age of kid.
I don't know that I do really well with kindergarten, but you know, like all the way up till, you know, obviously eighth grade, high school, there was no, I felt, as I said, I felt very comfortable. In and around school campuses. What happened interestingly though, is that I think what I liked was I, well, I enjoy, I enjoyed it immensely. And I think I had a great rapport with the kids. Everything was positive.
And then I guess I think I should explain another parallel really quickly too, and this isn't to be dramatic, but I just think the way that life intervenes. And gives you those sort of moments to say, like, this isn't the right fit. So just coincidentally, the same year, actually it isn't coincidental, because part of my decision to pivot back into the classroom was the result of my husband being deployed to Afghanistan as a U. S. Army soldier.
And so he was gone for a year, and I had, at that point, I had three kids. My youngest was four years old, and so I had, that means I had a four, a six, and an eight year old. And I was working. a full time job, etc. And so I think I, looking back, I probably was dealing with some no, I know it was. There's no probably about it.
I was dealing with some mental health challenges as a result of all the pressure and just the experience of being the spouse of a, you know, of a service person deployed to a combat, you know, zone.
But I also kind of look back and realize that intervention in my life, if in my story, if you will, was just causing me to reassess kind of what, who I was and what I enjoyed professionally and like knowing that this, that wasn't really the right fit and I think the decision to go back to the classroom actually was because I wasn't acknowledging That it needed to be even more dramatic than that. I was, like, doing a job in the district office.
Again, I was, you know, working with kids, working with the, my, my colleagues in terms of, you know, professional development, lots of things, but so anyway, go back into the classroom and things are working fine, but they weren't working fine for me in, you know, inside, in my mind and in my heart and in my, you know, just with that misalignment. And so I just didn't there was a day where I realized this wasn't fair to the kids actually.
And it, looking back, it's actually, it was, you know, I have enough years. I mean, that was, that's like 2013, you know, I have enough years now on it. But at the time it was.
It was a lot, it was a lot and I just had a moment, the kids had gone out to recess, and I just knew that I, this wasn't fair to them, I couldn't, I was, so, you know, again, I'd like to say too, that like, there was a significant portion of it that was, my mental health really needed to be addressed, I was really falling apart But I just also like, then I guess the blessing and all of it looking back was the realization was it's the kids deserve more, like certainly I needed to take care of myself, but I'm also recognizing that, you know, like.
This is, it's not a job you really can mail it in very well. You can't, I mean some people do, gosh. Ha! Sadly, you know, some people do. But I didn't, it didn't sit well with me to be that person in these kids lives knowing how important Effective instruction is for kids. And so like that day I went and talked to my principal. And I, I basically said I have, I can't do this. I have to go, like, I can't do this. Which was very challenging because you know, that's not done.
I mean, it's just, it's not often that teachers leave mid year it's you know, and so, you know, I felt yeah, it was really challenging.
So let's, so, so you were you made the right decision for yourself. You were convinced you made the right decision for yourself. And you came from this, you came from this family of educators, what was it like, what was it like telling your folks, did they, you know, because thinking, thinking about the idea
Yeah.
No, this is so, so how did that go?
It's so interesting. No. It's so interesting that you asked that question because you know, you have those memories that are so, so, so burnt into your brain. Just the clarity that you will always have of the memory. And one of the memories I have is going and telling my dad. And my dad is a lovely person, a wonderful person. And he was a high school, like I said, he's a high school biology teacher for like 30 years. And he taught in the same classroom for those number of years.
And, except for like one year where they had to move him out because they were remodeling the wing, you know. But when I went and told him, what I so distinctly remember was the sheer number of emotions that played across his face when I delivered the news. And, the, and all of them, like, and it was like, I don't know so much happiness, there wasn't any positive, let me say it that way actually, it wasn't positive emotions.
And I know if you, if we were to have him in this conversation and ask him, he would probably, Say that his primary concern was just was concerned was not so much fear, but you know, like, what are you going to do like what, you know, but there was definite like anger, like, it was like this, you know, like, it looked like anger, you know, and again, probably because he just knows that like, so disruptive to just things and just even just the idea that would be such a significant choice.
And I told him, and I mean, to his credit, it's not like he. He got a hold of himself, but I certainly saw all those emotions play across his face. And it's interesting because as you're saying that too, and I'm kind of, I know we kind of, you know, the idea of like the, what you experience when you make that decision.
You know, I remember even telling, I remember the look on my principal's face when I told her, you know, and people, adults are, you know, know, some people are really good at schooling their features, but you can still tell, you know, you can still see. And a lot of times, in the moment, it was very clear, like, okay, this, I've created an administrative problem for her.
Like, I've, you know, she now has to deal with the fallout, you know, communicate to parents, she has to call the district office. I remember the superintendent of HR coming over, like, that day, and wanting to talk to me. You know, to see if I had a different job or what to get this, get the sense for why I was leaving kind of thing.
So just that over and like, again, going back to my dad, I remember as I didn't stay long not because it was like I was smoke bomb and disappear or anything, but just, you know, like, it was like, so difficult to be to watch that play across his face. And again, understand that was his response, like, it's fine that he was feeling all those things, and I was feeling still very resolved.
I felt a peace around it, actually, but walking out of the house with my husband and getting in the car and just kind of, like, looking at him and him knowing, just, you know, just with a knowing look, like, that was really hard, you know. So, yeah, it's, it was, Whoa, gosh, sorry, one more. Because now you're generating, you're kicking up all these memories. I also then, there was a staff meeting. Where it was announced. Oh gosh. You know, what's funny is
Were you there at the staff meeting when it was announced? Oh, okay.
And cause this this is actually very interesting, Jane. Cause this is actually, it's touching on a lot of emotions for me. Those teachers I had so much respect for, do you see what I'm saying? This wasn't because I was in a bad situation. I am, I still consider many of these people, like I send them holiday cards, you know, like there's, you know, there's people that I still care.
I have so much appreciation and respect for the school I was working at and the, you know, my colleagues and, but I just knew it was not the right fit. And so having to sit in that room while, and the tone of the announcement was not, didn't feel critical or judgment. It just was, it was me. Being there where the decision was being, you know, like my decision was being announced.
And I just, people's faces look, I mean, they were, they trusted me enough to know that like, and I was, you know, apologizing, like it was, But this was, I would say this is, this played out the way that it did because of the really, the relationship I had with these people. You know what I'm saying? But it was still, it was painful.
It was painful to feel like I was letting them down, you know, and to know that like, I wanted to give them all this explanation, but really, no explanation is really gonna, I mean, what are you gonna, what are you gonna say? It's just not, this is not where I'm, this is, I just, I'm not supposed to be here, I guess, I don't know.
Well, the big thing that's different about your story than some of the stories that you hear these days is that, you know, somebody leaves Thursday night and they're never heard from again. So this was not like that. Now you, so you had you had to talk to your parents who were. Educators and you faced your staff at a staff meeting like that Was there any anybody tried to guilt you about this try to make you feel guilty about this try to change your mind or
You know, maybe it's a testament to who I am. Just in the same way that you were trying to discern like, is she coming for me or is she really just curious? , maybe I just give off a vibe that nobody's gonna try and come for me. I don't know. No, but you know what I felt like. You know, once I did that, it's not, I don't know, I don't think anybody was ever trying to be intentional, but it was definitely like, you're not one of us anymore. And again, it wasn't a mean thing.
It was just definitely like, you've left the family. Like, you know, you might bump into the ex husband of, you know, a cousin and you're like, Oh, how are you? You know, But you're not part of the family anymore. So I don't think it was anything where anybody was trying to actively trying to Nobody tried to guilt me, nobody tried to make me, you know, I don't know, but it just definitely felt like you've left, you know,
Yeah, well, I don't mean to say that, you know, teachers leaving mid year is a good thing you know, and like you talked about the, you know, you had to, you had an assistant sup come talk to you that day and all the issues that there are and especially if the kids like you and you're, and the parents
I had parents liked me. Yeah, it was hard. Yeah
all, you've got all that, but then I think of things that, Just the way that we look at the teaching profession, I mean, one and when I talk about being guilt, we guilt people up front. I mean, you know, you know, you know, you know how many, you know, it's a joke now when somebody says, Oh, what's your why? What's your why? And you know, Oh, it's about the children and it's not about, it doesn't have anything to do with you. And so that's part of it.
And then we make, we've made the job so difficult that you have to be a hero. You know, it's like the teachers are heroes. If the teachers are heroes, then we have to do something with how we, with our systems so that they don't have to be heroes. So that you could come and do a job and have good mental health. And I mean, you know, there are always going to be other things, but that shouldn't be a major contributing. factor to detraction from your mental health.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree.
And you know, one of the things that I think contributes in addition is the way that You know, for a lot of people in At least in, you know, and at least, okay, so in terms of the U. S. K 12 system, let's say, you know, you're prepared with some sort of license or certification, you know, if that, right, whatever that looks like, and then you get assigned a classroom and you get anywhere from 30 to 100 or, you know, whatever it is, 180 kids that now you're just responsible for. All right.
And, you know, you are maybe given some curriculum and then you kind of just have to survive on your own to some extent, you know, obviously there's like going to be you know, the requirements of the school, but I think the nature of the job also encourages people to develop these independent.
Survival skills, you know, I mean, you might have a, you might have a grade level that you collaborate with, but at the end of the day, you go, or not at the end of the day, every day you go and you close your door and you deliver, you know, you teach these kids on your own. And it was really striking, for example, how uncomfortable it made people when.
We would go and do coaching cycles on a campus where, you know, in my head, I was showing up being like, and you know, some people would recognize that some people would be like soaking it up just an absolute sponge. What a cool opportunity. Somebody's coming in here. They're giving me, you know, they're we're co planning and then they're giving me feedback on my lesson.
Some people loved that other people that was extremely hard because Their whole posture, their whole everything, but they've developed those survival skills because they have to be by themselves. And I think so that's another challenge about it is just the physical aspect of how you get a classroom. You get so many kids. I think for some people too.
You know, to your point about the idea of being a hero and taking care of all the things, the socio emotional, you know, needs of kids, and you've got parents, and you've got the demands from your district, and your site leadership, and there's a lot of extra things, and then you're in a classroom all by yourself.
You know, you're dealing with this on your own in a lot of ways, and I think that just reinforces, too, that you really just have to, it's, you're figuring out coping mechanisms that are going to reinforce you being all alone, in a way, you know?
Yeah. Well, let's move on. Okay. So, so you quit. And then and we were you know, we had the mutual friend, Karen Contreras. And I don't know if Karen was Karen working with me at the time that you were going through this or she was still with the district.
She was still at the district and so, I started out actually so, because I pivoted at that point, so now I'm like trying to figure out what my next chapter looks like I thought I would start I don't know, go back to school, but I thought I would spend some time, I was Able to utilize some of my husband's GI bill and get some, go to the community college. And I was actually working towards a certificate in geographic information systems, which sounds so random, but it just sounded like fun.
And I love learning. And so I thought, why the heck not? It's just, you know, something to set my mind to. And so that's what I did. But then along the way, I had no plan. I had no plan. I just knew I wanted to pivot away from education. And again, that's sorry. Cause I, I do feel like I was getting pretty sounding, I know I don't want to sound negative. About education at all. Like I said, it has a very precious place in my heart and in my family's history in terms of for myself.
So I was like, I know that this is not where I need to be, that I need to go do something else. And I. I was in such a state, and I was like, you know what, my husband had suggested it because he had taken some classes. We enjoyed talking about it. That was as much analysis as I had at the time. Then, in the course of doing my semester, I, you reached out to me, and you actually started, because I feel like, I know, at that point we were still talking, we would just have conversations.
about, you know, about instruction and different things like that. And you had actually contacted me about doing some like content development for you. And I think also it pivoted into a little bit of like website cleanup and just things. And so. That was really just reconnecting with you from a professional perspective was really just because we'd had developed the friendship but also because you were like, Hey, I've got this basically like gig work.
So it's like, you sucked me back in thinking about instruction and everything. And I, and so at that point it was like, it just felt like gradually I got back into sort of the K 12 realm. Because at that point I was. you know, working with you around, you know, to be a consultant, I guess, you know, but it started out just me helping you clean up some PowerPoint slides and stuff for, you know, your presentations, which was probably great, you know, considering I'd kind of had this.
major sort of break with this, you know, life path, if you will. And then it really was this beautiful way of you allowing me to carry forward some things that I still enjoy thinking about. I still enjoyed, you know, grappling with, and even the idea that I would be helping other people.
With the same things that you were like, that I remember being so in love with when you would present when you presented to my district that I, you know, that I loved, I thought, you know, shoot, like, if that's something, I mean, genuinely, I remember, you know, like, if that was some way that I could like help teachers with the same kind of cool insights and efficiencies and, you know, confidence that I was like, that sounds really cool.
You know, I should have said this earlier, you know, now we'll do the full disclosure that you did end up, you did end up, we did end up working together for a number of years, and you know, you talked about going back to community college, but I was from the very beginning just impressed with your intellect, and I told and I saw you as somebody, you know, you need to go get your doctorate. You are the type of person who needs your doctorate.
And and then you went back, you got your master's because you found out every, you know, all the programs with masters.
I had to get one. That's right. That's right.
yeah, and I, and then I remember just trying to convince you, Janae, just, you don't have to work this hard, you don't have to work this hard
You know what? You know what? Preparing to, or, you know, knowing that putting my mind to the idea that I was going to come to this conversation. I had so much fun thinking back to conversations that I again, still recall there was a time we were driving back. from working at a district in Southern California. And so we were chatting because we had a long time in the car, right?
And I remember talking out loud with you about like, well, what, you know, which masters and you were giving me your thinking. And I remember that too. It's like, Because I was also complaining about, why do I need to do this, you know, like, I just want to get my doctorate, and you were being very patient with this, like, spoiled kid, you know, that was, like, Janae, you know? And and also just to be your point, like, you're overthinking it. Just go do it. Just get it done.
And you did it and I don't know if that was the if that was the time coming back from Southern California, where I had an encounter with a teacher, and Janae, you were the only witness to the only time that I yelled at a teacher, No, I didn't.
Oh, yeah. That absolutely was the same weekend. That's so funny. And I was brand new, so I had tagged along to kind of shadow. And it was like, it was great because we got to talk about, you were like, that is not all the time, but that was, she was being over the top. And I can vouch for poor Jean. She was being over the top.
Well, and then the irony is the next day She went in and did the most dynamite lesson and it was as if the whole thing never happened, you know Is this the it was if our whole encounter difficult encounters? And so, and so I didn't enjoy it at the time and I could tell in your face. You weren't enjoying it
No, I was like, how do we slink out of the room? Yeah
But it was a great learning. It was a great learning and in 20 years of doing this work. It was the only time that I've ever raised my voice with a
you actually it's funny that you recall it that way because I recall it as speaking With your authority voice, which is what my dad used to refer to, you know, like the voice a coach uses when they want the team to stop messing around and get on the line kind of thing. So that's kind of funny. You recall it as yelling, but yes, you definitely had to speak sternly to get it back on track.
So, so you did it. It's interesting. You know, I tell I talked to so many people and it's interesting that we're talking to you now and we want to talk about, you know, a little bit about the work as a consultant and you making that transition because just last week and I had a person who works for public and works in publishing Because there are two things so many teachers want to do they want to get a book published And they want to be a consultant
The checklist. Yeah.
so so you became a consultant and you know working with me We're working in explicit instruction and we worked the big thing is coaching cycles. And for those of And for those of you who have purchased my book, Teach Fast, you can see Janaye one of Janaye's coaching cycles. There's some content in there that she provided. But what did you think it was going to be? How was it? What were the challenges? What was good? You know, just the whole any comments about becoming a consultant?
Yeah. So first of all, I would say if anybody is considering being a consultant, get yourself an excellent mentor like Jean Tavernetti, because I still to this day I swear to you, Jean, I still to this day have recollections of things that you said to me that have served me even in my career where I'm not a consultant currently, right? One of the things you talked about early on was, yeah, I have that opening line. Definitely that, you know, I love that one.
But then also another thing that you had said to me was All you have to do is tell them one thing they didn't know, and they'll listen to you.
And I felt like, because one of my concerns, I remember also talking to you, since I wasn't like young from an age perspective, but in teaching anyway, everybody wants to tell you, anybody who's anybody's going to tell you how many years they've been in a classroom, how, you know, all the grades they've taught, you know, it's, it is a badge of honor to be teaching for years and years. And I. I didn't have that.
And it's not to say that I didn't feel confident that I could go in and like have a conversation with somebody. I was, I remember being concerned that I would have enough experience so that I would be taken seriously because again, I know how much that's meaningful to people and I understand why.
But you helped me stay focused on the idea that as long as you can give them one new thing, they're going to be open to additional kinds of conversations where they can continue to You know, learn and grow with me alongside them. The other thing that I really loved was truly Jean, I could go on and on. So I'm trying to rein myself in, but that I really loved about the consulting the model of consulting that I was taught under you was how powerful.
Models are in the sense that not only modeling, what is good look like, like physically giving people a model, but also models of how you're going to engage, you know, the idea that you were very clear with me from the beginning about, you know, you keep it to no more than three, or you'd say, here are the questions I pose, or you would say, you know, here are the way here's the way that I even would.
Set up the room and I mean, part of that is just who you are, like in the way that you are reflective and curious and you learn more about being an effective consultant, you know, an effective coach, but also just the idea that you had.
You impress upon me the idea that if you can have some predictability in the relationship that actually accounts for, that minimizes the degree to which it keeps the conversation focused and it minimizes the unknowns a little bit more, you know, I mean, I can also thinking back, I can remember being, this isn't funny, but it's funny because I'm thinking about myself sitting in the room being like, Oh my gosh, because I would have, you'd have a day where, And I'm not laughing at anyone's distress, but, you know, I'd have a day where somebody was just having an off day and they come in to do a coaching conversation, you know, a reflection, post lesson conversation, and all of a sudden I've got a woman.
Who's crying, and I, like, I'm heartbroken, she's having a really tough day, but in my brain, I'm like,
Yeah.
Yeah, your lesson went fine, I'm so sorry, like, you know, so I'm saying that's what's going through my mind, but You know, that kind of stuff where the more that you can equip yourself with those structures And with that sort of consistency, not because you're trying to be a robot It actually, again, provides that sort of comfort and confidence for the relationship, for the interaction Because you're, like I said, you're minimizing some of the unknowns and you're keeping the conversation focused.
I really just, that was my experience with consulting as well as also just having so many stories of, you know, the individuals, the personalities, you know, the situations where I genuinely was like. Okay, what do I actually do right now? Because the kids are low key mutiny and this poor teacher is getting eaten alive. Like, how, what do I call somebody? Like, you know, situations where they felt like they were kind of tough. They were kind of wild.
But, I mean, even for all of those, I had so many instances of just, of sitting in the back of the room being in awe of what teachers can do. And being so in love and my heart just being full watching six year olds. Just so pumped up because, you know, they're successfully adding, you know, you know, adding with this new condition kind of deal. So, it was an
yeah. Well, two, two, two things I want to bring up is because when you began consulting, you know, with me you still had your three kids
Yes,
that and it included some travel. And that was one thing that I always tried to do, and that I'm trying to give a little advice to people who want to become consultants is that the way that we, contracted with schools.
yeah,
I would say I would develop the contract with the school and then I would say Janae is going to work with you. She will call you to schedule the day. So you had some some power over when you to calendar and I think that was an important thing. Did I say I was going to say two things?
I think you did but I've also lost track.
Yeah but I think that's important because, you know, initially I think teachers who want to go out and become consulting to become consultants, that's one of the things I always ask. I said, do you have kids, you know, because this is going to be hard and it's not just females. It's, you know, I was talking to somebody the other day who's just started consulting and he didn't realize he wasn't going to be there for Halloween.
It's funny you say that. I have a memory of a school trying to schedule with me on Valentine's day, which is not, you know, I know some people don't have the most, they don't care about Valentine's day, but it was, again, I mentioned my husband is in the military and he, we've actually been apart a lot. And I mean, just, you know, not excessive, but a lot, a significant amount.
And so it just happened that, that was a, I was looking forward to spending with my husband cause I was, we were both, you know, I shouldn't have been traveling kind of thing. And I remember reacting like, Oh, I wanted to be home for Valentine's day. And the school was like, that's too bad. You know? So, you know, yeah, exactly.
I and I think I would say too, in terms of my ability to do consulting at the time that I did was because I had an aunt who She had, she was retired, recently retired, and she was willing to throw herself into you know, bridging any childcare gaps. You certainly, while my husband was gone, you know, she was just in hugely instrumental my parents also, because at one point they were retired, you know, so they were available. But yeah, it was. It was not always easy to be gone.
It certainly, I didn't ever enjoy being apart from my kids, but from a logistics perspective, you know, it's, it wasn't, it was work. It was challenging, you know?
I remember the other thing that I was going to say, and
Oh yeah.
One of the things that is so different about consulting versus being, you know, in a K 12 system is that you don't have, you don't see people every day. And I try to reach out to folks. Who are consultants, who are fairly new to consulting, and I'll say, you know what, I know it's lonely, call me if you just want to chat, because it was so fun, it was, it's so fun talking about the stuff,
I know. I know. Yeah.
and the other thing is, it's a multiplier effect, you know, if I'm in six classrooms today, and Janae's in six classrooms, all of a sudden we can share, and we can vicariously, we've had 12 experiences,
that's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah.
so I want to share that with people. So you got your master's, then you started working on your doctorate and then you had to move and we didn't see each other and so you couldn't
that's right. That's right. That's right.
you couldn't continue to consult, but you completed your master's. And I mean, your doctorate. And how is that? Because that's another thing that I see, you know online you'll see advertisements for people Oh, you've got your doctorate, but you don't want to be in education. What are you going to do? We've got a job for you. So so how is that? How's your doctorate? Served you
so I guess I want to, yeah, I want to, I guess I want to just say to that I wanted my doctorate because I wanted my doctorate. I mean, I'm, I don't know. I think a lot of, that is one thing where I think I know people have done it for better reasons. I guess if you need a reason, I mean, certainly the decision to justify the expense. But I, this was just something I wanted for myself. So in terms of how it serves me what's interesting is in my current.
Career. Well, actually I'll tell you this too. Because I remember us having a conversation about this too. The notion of, you know, people referring to as Dr. Tabernetti or, you know, Dr. Tovar. I do love it. Like, I love being able to put that on the part where it's like asking, are you Mr. or Mrs. Miz? And I say doctor, you know. But I actually only until recently would put Edd after my name. I think because I'm. It's not that I, like, am embarrassed or anything.
I just always felt like, I don't want you to think that I'm trying to, I don't know lead with somehow my status. Do you know what I'm saying? I'd like you to just figure out
It's like, it's like i'm vegan You
Yes!
up
I don't want it to be my personality. That's a great point. Yes, I don't want it to be my personality. But I have found that well, so with my career, I'm working in an arena that's more like adult education at this point, you know, like, you know, I mean, very basically, there's a new tool, like there's a new database, there's a new software, and people need to learn how to use it. And so the tool that I work with, it helps people learn how to use the software. Very fundamentally.
Interestingly, in that context, a lot of things get spoken about in terms of, quote, training. And, you know, we have, you know, in K 12, we have a lot of conversation about strategies and you know. Design and all these different things.
It's the same with adult education, you know, you get a lot of people who have maybe delivered a training with a, you know, a curriculum that was packaged, and now they're an expert on adult learning, you know, and so I have found now that I enjoy bringing out the three letters after my name, if only just to say, like, I do know what I'm talking about, you know, I have spent a fair amount of time learning about learning and and so, because a lot, interestingly, a lot of what people know about learning or education is because they went to school, period.
Do you know, like, I know about learning because I learned at some point. So, anyway, that's where I found that I appreciate having my doctorate, not because I'm trying to. Like, be a bully in the conversation, but at least to sort of have the, to me, the integrity around if I'm claiming expertise. It's like, because I did put some time in the seat, you know?
know I can't tell you how good it is to catch up with you and I appreciate you, you know, answering all of these questions and taking a little trip down memory lane. Let me ask you this. Do you have any questions for me?
It's funny that you started out joking about how the things people want to do is consult and write books and I actually wanted to ask you about writing a book and mostly because I think, you know, I know that when I moved you were still working on your first book and then it just felt like, and then you just had a second book right away and I am wondering what you feel like, you know, Gene, who is writing your second book would go back and say to Jean, who was writing the first book, like, what do you feel like you learned?
Because you just seem to produce it that much faster. So, you know, it just makes me wonder, you must have, like, found the, you must have hit your stride or hit your groove or whatever. So, I'm curious.
here's what happened in the first book, is I probably wrote that book five or six times, and the reason that I wrote it five or six times is because I didn't know that you could write something once and revise it, make it better, And so I just, you know, I just continued to revise it, you know, our, here. friend and mentor, you know, Dr. Olson, Randy I would send it to him. I would send it to people to get feedback. And I was driving myself crazy.
And the other thing that I did, the other thing, you know, as you're writing a book, you know, you're writing it in. You know, you're writing a Word document, and you just got pages and pages of Word documents, and if anybody knows this about Dr. Tavernetti, it's Dr. Tovar, and that is, I don't know how to put, you know, images in the text, and I don't know how to, you know, create it. So,
did, I wouldn't have been doing your gig work. So it was
Yeah, right. So I had pages and pages. And so what I did, I had a friend who had worked for McGraw Hill and he had done, and he had done he was a graphic artist and he had done all the design work for all the standardized tests.
Wow. Okay.
So I sent it to him and I said, could you make it look like a book?
Yeah.
And so he created chapter headings and that sort of thing. And so I felt like I had, I, you know, I, now I just have to finish it because I am so close. And so, and I got to where. I kept writing and editing and revising. And one day I couldn't decide whether the word should be anyone or anybody. And then when I Googled it and it said, it doesn't matter. I realized, you know, I'm done. I got to be done. Cause this is driving me crazy.
Send it to a publisher, and it is Mark Combs, who is the person who, who would have been on before this airs and he said, Wow, you have a whole book, because most people don't do that. It's not like writing a
Ah, they do the proposal.
You do a proposal. And so, because it was, you know, it was so complete in a way. I mean, it still needed to be edited and,
Certainly. Certainly.
you know, but so got that done. And then so it went quickly.
Yeah.
And then, and it was all about the only thing that I'd been doing for 15 years.
Sure.
So, so that was that. And then my second book, which was, so the first book was about instruction. Second book was about coaching, but it could have been one book,
Oh, I see what you're saying.
You know, so so it was just a continuation of that second of how to implement how to coach around effective instruction. And so to do a call back to something you said earlier about a teacher crying. There's even a piece in there about what to do when a teacher cries.
Oh my gosh. I might, I don't think I've read that whole book. I've skimmed it, but I'll have to go back and find that section now and just giggle. Yeah. That's wild.
So that's what I learned. And for me, I was able to do them quickly because I didn't have to do a lot of research. You know, it's all. evidence based, but I didn't put the references. People who know the research can go in and say, Oh, I see that so and so. I see that so and so. Of course this works. So, that's how the second one, that's how the second one happened. And it's a lot easier to get the second book published because you already have a publisher.
Sure. That makes sense. That's very interesting to know. I appreciate that. Cause I guess I'm just being very cliche, but I know, and it's not even about, it's not about teaching actually. I, but I will tell you the book I have in mind is, cause I, again, going back to something I said earlier, A lot of the things that I learned while working for and with you really were like the sort of origin of the sort of like wisdom, I guess, would have been working as a consultant.
And even if I'm not doing that now. So many things that I learned just in terms of operating with dynamic, I mean, I'm saying changing audiences, you know, different people all the time, meeting across different things, different you know, cross organization, different things. I feel like they're all. You know, rooted in some way in the way that I cut my teeth as a consultant, you know. So, I have another question for you though,
okay. Okay.
another thing that I remember you talking about with respect to your book when you're right, when you were envisioning it, you know, you were talking about your goal to do it, is you had also said that writing a book is a way to That people can validate. I mean, you weren't being so, you know, callous about it, but it is a way of validating your expertise in a way, right?
And so, and that it would effectively, it's a, well, how do I say, like, you know, if you're up doing a seminar, you're doing a workshop or whatever, and you've got your book at the back of the room, like, that makes people sit up and take notice a little bit differently. How has that played out for you?
It's just an extension of your doctorate,
Okay. Okay.
Oh, you have your doctorate. Oh, good. Oh, did you write a book? Yeah, you wrote a book. Well, then the other thing that was happening to me is that after about, oh, eight or nine years consulting, people would say, Do you have a book? No, you need to write one. So so that was validating and then I always felt like a weenie because I just hadn't sat down to do the
To do it. To do it. Great. I'm at that phase. I'm at that phase of my life. The feeling like a weenie because I just haven't sat down and do it. So, okay. Okay. But I guess you feel like it's played out.
It's It is exactly like doing your doctorate. I mean, it's just okay So, you know and i'm going to put you i'm going to put you in touch with mark combs You know to talk about and he could talk you through it But I remember when when I did my doctorate we had our first meeting we had a cohort I think there were 13 of us and we all met at at this one place and the director of the program said you did the hardest thing. That's getting in the program. Now. All you need to do is the work
This is a work.
and it's the same. It's the same. It's it's the same. It's the same thing. And so
Okay. So I, okay. I'll just, you know, put it on the 2025 bucket list.
there you go. And it's yeah. Yeah. So Janae, I can't tell you what a joy. I can't tell you what a joy it's been.
Yeah. Likewise, Jean. This has been such a gift.
yeah, and we will we will talk. If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky.
Tesscg. com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles. Talk to you soon!