00:00:00 Ken
With a vast knowledge of architecture and a love for craft beverages, Harold combines his love into a career of building craft breweries. Harold talks about his other ventures, including religious and medical buildings, his love for building everything he uses, including his boat and what he likes to do when he relaxes. If you're looking to start or buy a brewery.
00:00:20 Ken
This is a must listen to episode as we go over the dos and don'ts. Many people don't realize when building out.
00:00:28 Intro
Whether your beer is in a bottle can or glass kick back and relax, it's better on draft.
00:00:45 Ken
Welcome, everybody. Episode 326 of the Better on Draft podcast. My name is Ken. Thank you so much for joining us. I truly appreciate it. Just a reminder, we will be off next week as we will.
00:00:56 Ken
Be at the UP Beer festival. At least I will.
00:00:58 Ken
Be there so.
00:00:59 Ken
Feel free to come by and say hi, but let's go around and see what everybody is drinking, starting with Wendy. Wendy.
00:01:06 Ken
What do you got?
00:01:07 Wendy
I have got picked up one of Robb's.
00:01:11 Wendy
Blow bears lemon wood bars from eastern market. It is deliciously tart. I hope that he thinks it does. His mom's favorite dessert justice. And just to keep my bases covered. I also have a juicy bits from woodworks.
00:01:29 Ken
Daniel, what do?
00:01:30 Dan
You got all right. Going hard with my own stuff today. I've got a bottle of my Bolshevik Baltic Porter.
00:01:37 Dan
And my go to gulag Russian imperial stout.
00:01:41 Ken
Getting ready for a show tonight.
00:01:43 Ken
I see. What are you going to see tonight?
00:01:45 Dan
Pantera and Metallica.
00:01:48 Ken
We do have.
00:01:49 Ken
A guest host with us today. Gary, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us what you're drinking and a little bit about yourself.
00:01:56 Gary
Hey. Hey, guys. I'm Gary. I'm down here in Pooler, GA, outside Savannah. I'm drinking a little seed right now.
00:02:04 Gary
Continental little baby crusher cause it's hot out here. Still 92 degrees today. Yay. Just ready to rock a little.
00:02:13 Gary
Have some fun today.
00:02:15 Ken
Alright, for myself I have an Alaskan amber from our great guests from.
00:02:22 Ken
Was it just last week?
00:02:23 Ken
Two weeks ago and then I also.
00:02:24 Ken
Have a milkshake.
00:02:25 Ken
Stout from the.
00:02:26 Ken
Now RIP Rochester Mills brewery production facility. At least we should still be able to get these beers over at the Brew pub, but no longer in stores.
00:02:36 Ken
With that in mind, we do have a guest to join us a little bit different than our normal type of guest. Why don't you go ahead, introduce yourself, tell us what you do, and of course, what you're drinking.
00:02:47 Harold
Hi. Good afternoon or actually evening here, old Brentlinger design team plus I'm the principal architect.
00:02:54 Harold
And we are a brewery architecture firm. We've done 18 projects through the state of Michigan, various stages for breweries. And what am I drinking? Well, I'm going for my my favorite type, which is a triple L from well, which is the final absolution from Dragon made. And then in my little ice bucket behind me.
00:03:13 Harold
What you can't see I have a Thunder kiss 65 from warm water up in St. Clair, MI. And then if we get a little bit too crazy, I got some happy refresher to go non alcoholic.
00:03:25 Ken
Always good to balance with the non alcoholic beer especially.
00:03:28
With some of.
00:03:29 Ken
The the ABV's of the beers that we're getting into on these shows sometimes. So you are a brewery architecture firm while you work for a brewery architecture firm, you are not a physical firm yourself.
00:03:42 Ken
What are? Let's let's start with the easy softball question. What are some of the breweries that we might have seen your work?
00:03:50 Harold
OK. So real quick we got starting from way back when this will go back before design team plus which is my current firm. I worked on the Great Baraboo Brewing Company in Clinton Township.
00:04:03 Harold
That's going back to late 90s, early 2000s. Fast forward about 10 years, 2010. The Multi Dog Brewing Company, which is a little nano brewery and home brew store in Southfield. And then we took some major steam in about 2014 to today where we did draft.
00:04:23 Harold
Force rustic leaf stigs up and blowing drafting table. We've done work for Cadillac, Straight Supply, House and Brewery, Sheboygan Brewing Company. We have currently right now permitted and under construction heights coming to downtown.
00:04:38 Harold
Clinton stumblebum coming to Troy, MI and then a couple of unbuilt projects for loaded dice and blacktop.
00:04:48 Harold
Things you have a couple of distilleries that we've we've helped master plan and one that right now we're kind of talking to but can't say who it is in location because it's.
00:04:48 Ken
Awesome, baby.
00:04:58 Harold
Not for your knowledge.
00:05:00
Well, other than.
00:05:01 Ken
Breweries and distilleries, I guess maybe tap rooms, bars, restaurants. Do you do any other design work?
00:05:07 Harold
Yeah. Yeah, we're.
00:05:08 Harold
We're we're. Yeah, we're very diverse. We we we basically don't try to do one type of architecture. So we do Officer models, office build outs, obviously restaurants we do medical.
00:05:20 Harold
We've done currently that was just opened up downtown Ferndale. We did a fair park for a therapy center that works with children, with learning and mental disabilities. So we created an outdoor therapy park so that they can, you know, have active bodies to get healthy.
00:05:39 Harold
Things we've worked on religious institutions, the Catholic Orthodox Church, synagogues, the United Methodist Church, so Lutheran Church as well, so pretty much across the board. And then we do do some small amount of residential, but we still do some residential.
00:06:00 Ken
Well before I pass it off to to Wendy, because I know she's got some questions that she wants to.
00:06:06 Ken
Ask you what?
00:06:08 Ken
When when we think about breweries, you know we're trying.
00:06:11 Dan
To figure out what.
00:06:13 Ken
What's going to keep you in, and obviously you need an aesthetic. You need to look not just for it to be feasible, like workable, like the ability to brew in there and serve customers as a person who I am assuming also goes to breweries for fun.
00:06:28 Ken
What are some of the more over like overlooked qualities in a brewery build out that you kind of see in a lot of other breweries that they don't take advantage of of because they didn't pick?
00:06:39 Harold
You a lot.
00:06:40 Harold
Of times I mean, not necessarily. They didn't pick me or they had a very tight budget or they try to do it on their own.
00:06:46 Harold
They're branding. How are they actually exemplifying their branding, which is, you know, on their cans, on their bottles, within the actual we call the built environment. You know, you have to, we want to reinforce their brand through every aspect of the project that you know and every aspect of the tap room or the actual.
00:07:05 Harold
Blue house.
00:07:06 Harold
You know what is your focus and what are you looking at? And you know, if I gave an example of like draft horse that was, you know, regarding equestrian having rustic, but also they wanted to show how that they're having the the highest quality beer coming out of there so.
00:07:20 Harold
Tackling that's behind me, that's in draft horse brewery right there. So we brought in extremely durable materials that can remain clean.
00:07:28 Harold
Can be pristine at all times because it can be easily washed down. People view it from the tap room and they see that going wow, their beer must be good because they keep their tap room clean. So As for the equestrian side, we kind of made the space look like a a tap room inside of a horse stable and then to actually.
00:07:48 Harold
Totally reinforce the name which is draft horse. Going back to horses, which a lot of people don't notice unless somebody tells them or points it out to them. But every table and bar top in the space is made out of press straw.
00:08:01 Harold
So the countertop surface, the table surfaces, all press straw, and then you know the rustic comes in with the the background on their, on their, on their bar, back bar, the rustic barn wood that we had in there, the historic saddles that we had in there and their little fun fact they had sort of a cease and desist.
00:08:22 Harold
On the name from some brewery, which I won't name, but they use large horses to pull wagons around, and they agreed that you can keep the name as long as they don't advertise with horses. So we ended up getting the 1st.
00:08:39 Harold
Township approved in Oakland County A2 Horse horse parking space out front that people could ride, ride their horses to and then take selfies with their horses with the name of the book in the background. And I think the most they had at one point was almost like 15 horses showed up with riders. So again a little spin like that that we can do to kind of like heighten the brand name.
00:09:01 Harold
And things that people just don't think about, but they're there and they just keep reinforcing, you know, the, the, the name of the brewery. We always ask our Brewers give us 3 adjectives to explain your brewery and then we try to work those 3 adjectives into their project.
00:09:21 Wendy
Well, that actually leads into one of the questions that I had because I'm just interesting. When you started getting into this niche, what are some of the places that you drew inspiration from?
00:09:32 Harold
So we we try not to mimic or try to replicate somebody else.
00:09:38 Harold
Work. So we we focus specifically on the actual brewery and the owners themselves. If they have marketing material that they've worked with the graphic artists for all their labels and their menus and everything of that nature, their logos, we'd like to get a hold of those. What are the colors that they're using, the fonts that they're using, what is the message they're trying to tell?
00:09:59 Harold
And then we develop the brewery for them and them specifically, so Cadillac Straits. When we did that, it's all about Cadillac Straits or basically straits of Detroit. You know, the Fort Detroit, Cadillac himself. So.
00:10:16 Harold
Looking at the bar, when you walk in, you don't notice it, but if you look down to it, we actually have a very sharp point in the actual bar top, which actually replicates the actual sort of in Bunk mints or or cannon towers on the Fort Detroit. So we try to bring in some historic.
00:10:36 Harold
Nature or historic relevance to their project because they were using Cadillac Straits, really wanting to do that. We designed a wallpaper with the map of Detroit historic map Detroit with.
00:10:49 Harold
4 Detroit shown on.
00:10:51 Harold
Unfortunately, budget came into play. They did not put that in. It's still something that they want to do. So and then the other thing that they wanted to do, they wanted to be a teaching brewery. So your focus when you walk in the door was the brew house, right in their dining area front and center bar top that people could sit at and ask questions.
00:11:10 Harold
For the Brewer while they're working in there. So again, things like, you know, using what they intend to do to help drive the actual design but not copying off of somebody else as an inspiration.
00:11:27 Wendy
Do you feel that our brews are?
00:11:29 Wendy
Putting a little more thought.
00:11:33 Wendy
I'd say effort, but I think thought is probably the the better word for it into the design and build of their breweries than they have in the.
00:11:39 Wendy
Last 10 years.
00:11:40 Harold
I I am seeing a little bit more of a drive and a push towards that. I think some of that's coming from the lecture series that were coming out of the Brewers Guild at the conference from.
00:11:51 Harold
You know people speaking about marketing and branding and and those items to basically set themselves apart from somebody else because at one point in time, it's like almost every Brewer. You walked into our walked into the bar was made out of used pallets. They had used pallets on the wall, they had beer barrel or, you know barrels for table. It was the same.
00:12:10 Harold
The teeth, the same design over and over again. You know, raw concrete for the floors and it's like, well, that's great. But I can go down straight down the street and walk in another brewery and it looks just like you with a different name on it.
00:12:24 Harold
So how do you?
00:12:24 Wendy
And the exact same chairs.
00:12:26 Harold
And the same exact same chairs which all come from premier furniture for some reason. But you know there's there's 30 chairs. They do a good job. I mean, mine breweries have those in them as well. But yeah, I am seeing, you know, even with some of the breweries that we're not designing or working with. But I know the owners and they're going through redesign, I'm seeing that.
00:12:46 Harold
Come into it. So Sheboygan Brewing Company hired us because they needed to be known.
00:12:54 Harold
And they they weren't being noticed. And the first presentation that we did, I said, OK, here's my idea for the outside. I pulled up a rendering and I painted the building the color of their blood orange honey cans, that burnt umber and that burnt pumpkin and their jaws dropped went Oh my God, that's.
00:13:13 Harold
Amazing. And then we did an interior rendering where we designed this ball.
00:13:18 Harold
Paper that had the the the map of Michigan and on the map of Michigan was every off road trail, snowmobile Trail, River hiking trail and what brought us to that was I went to measure the place and there was four side by sides pulled up in front and they're inside, drinking beer going well.
00:13:38 Harold
Where's the trail to have a side by side out front at least?
00:13:41 Harold
More of them.
00:13:42 Harold
So we started researching it and actually the the Iron Belt Trail, which goes from Iron Mountain to Belle Isle and in Detroit, goes right by them. So we present that. And one of the owners goes I never thought about that. I actually promote and put give money to all these trail systems because I use them.
00:14:02 Harold
So now on their website, if you go on their website, they have all the trail maps as part of their website. So they fully embrace that idea of the outdoors in Michigan, which is one of their key sort of adjectives that they threw out to.
00:14:15 Harold
Us and then we just brought it back into it. We worked with our landscape architect to create a really cool outdoor space and within the first year of them completing the project, not only do they have good beer which is helping, but just because people could find them, they had a 52% increase in sales.
00:14:36 Harold
Their taproom.
00:14:38 Harold
In one year and the following year it was up 15% from the previous year. So they're doing a great job marketing and getting their beer out in the store, and they're making a really good, you know, amount of beer and tasting beer. But then again, here comes our design that just reinforced all of what they were standing behind and trying to do.
00:14:58 Wendy
That's awesome. So before I pass it over to Gary because I know he's got some stuff he wants to ask you, I read a whole bunch of different articles and it seems like volunteerism has been a huge part of your company culture.
00:15:10 Wendy
Right from the.
00:15:11 Wendy
Get. So I was just curious what are some of the ways that giving back is promoted in your firm?
00:15:16 Harold
So every year we try to find an organization, the 501C3, that we can actually go volunteer our time to or we can work with and give an in kind gift as part of our design fees to the.
00:15:29 Harold
So, Sherry Stein, my business partner, who she and I were introduced to each other in 2012 while teaching at Lawrence Tech. And somebody had, you know, asked us, which was a friendship circle, if we could help design A apartment for a 21 year old lady with cerebral palsy who's always looked with her parents.
00:15:50 Harold
And other efficiency apartment.
00:15:52 Harold
And Sherry reached out to me and said, would you be willing to do this? And I said, yeah, let's do it. So that's how she and I got together. We designed that we we called all of her friends in the industry from construction to IT to millwork. And they all volunteered their time. And we created this space for her.
00:16:12 Harold
To live in and be with their friends and everything else. So from that point forward, we had a nonprofit, not non nonprofit. The low profit entity.
00:16:23 Harold
Which is called team for Community design team plus absorbed it because we wanted to have it part of our core value. So last year during the harvest season, our whole office went to yada's for food pantry and we did a harvest with them. We actually harvested vegetables, washed them, washed them, packaged them for them to give out to their patrons.
00:16:43 Harold
That need their services and need the food. This year we're probably going to go to food pantry, which is through the Saint Mark, St. Mary, St. Philip Peter Parish, which is a part of the Coptic Orthodox.
00:16:57 Harold
Church and we're going to donate some of our time to there. One of our employees just did a backpack packing for, you know, our school with one of the chambers, you know, donated his time to do that. And then a lot of us sit on different commissions. I sit on a high school and a Community College.
00:17:18 Harold
Normal High School Macomb Community College for their architectural classes. One of their advisory committees and.
00:17:26 Harold
And another one of our employees, Joe alter, she sits on that on the Macomb Community College one. She also volunteers her time for the village of Warren Historic District. So we we promote this within our organization and every year we try to do something and then this past year we worked with Life Lab Kids, which is the.
00:17:47 Harold
European center I spoke to about what we did with the park and we did an in kind gift where we helped select the playground equipment that would be suitable for.
00:17:58 Harold
Their clientele and and patients coming to them. So it was safe and they could use it and it would allow everybody to enjoy the park. So and and our our firm enjoys that the the the employees just gravitate towards it and we it's just that really good feeling.
00:18:21 Wendy
That's fantastic and real quick though. Why is it important to you as a business owner to do that?
00:18:29 Harold
I think you know you you need to share your knowledge to organizations that sometimes don't have the means to help pay for the the work that they're doing or what they're they're trying to.
00:18:41 Harold
We also because we met this way, we always felt that we need to do it and this is something that goes way back in my history. I started in 1985 promoting car shows for Handicap Boy Scouts, and I did that for 21 years and to this day it is still part of the city of Warren's birthday.
00:19:02 Harold
Celebration with the same Boy Scout troop. So it's it just it makes you feel good. And I think that's the biggest reason we feel good doing it.
00:19:14 Wendy
That's awesome, Gary, I'm going to.
00:19:15 Wendy
Pass it to you.
00:19:16 Gary
Thanks. Real quick, dad, I'm gonna live Mike here.
00:19:20 Gary
Dad, I'm gonna laugh, Mike. Sorry about.
00:19:27 Gary
That was great. You work with the.
00:19:28 Gary
Boy Scouts as a.
00:19:29 Gary
Former member thank you for helping out. I appreciate.
00:19:31 Harold
You're welcome.
00:19:33 Gary
I think I have the best shoot number ever 11.
00:19:40 Gary
But I'm going to go a little bit different route here as I see you do fly fishing.
00:19:42 Harold
All right.
00:19:45 Harold
Yes, I did.
00:19:47 Gary
I have done it a couple of times. I just.
00:19:49 Gary
Love fishing in general?
00:19:51 Gary
Work like here. I see you're doing. You do 5 tying. That's an art in itself. Like, what do you like to do?
00:19:58 Gary
More when you do.
00:19:58 Gary
That, like, what's your favorite pattern? What's your favorite fish? You wanna go after?
00:20:04 Harold
So I love going after salmon and trout.
00:20:10 Harold
That's usually not something I can get to do most of the time, so here on the island where I'm at, we have a ton of panfish and bass and Pike, so I love using like a teeny nymph or even doing. Let's see what's the other one.
00:20:29 Harold
Royal Coachman works out really well. Some deer hair. Sponge poppers for on the surface for bass, some terrestrials doing grasshoppers from that surface for going after baths in the spring. Prince mints and little.
00:20:47 Harold
Beadhead caddis tenants are phenomenal for underwater for bluegill and coffee, and it's early morning on the canal just early spring before the weeds and the Lily pads come in non-stop. Just pulling out some.
00:21:05 Harold
Just monster gills.
00:21:07 Harold
UM salmon. We'll use some beadhead cattus. We'll use stone flies 4 under on the water. And then that's just the blast in the middle of the night. Standing knee deep in the river just and slammed by salmon. You know, at your legs and was taking you out as you're going upstream, that's just.
00:21:27 Harold
Fun as can be, and then I'm going to be going up in a couple of weeks to do a little bit of brown brook trout fishing, so those will be bringing out some really tiny.
00:21:36 Harold
Me. Yeah. Tape the wing caddisflies or we'll be bringing out some little hand patterns and and just put a scoop. Those across the surface of the water have them pick them up. But fly tying I. I love doing that because I have a little bit of a DD and I need to focus a lot of times.
00:21:57 Harold
Right over, hopefully focus on stuff. So just being able to put those blinders on, having a good beer, bourbon in your hand used to smoke cigars while doing it. But I gave that up in 2009.
00:22:08 Harold
You're no times 3-4 hours have gone by. Handful of flies have been tied, and you can just look at going wow. I created that. That's cool. I didn't start doing it to save money because there's no way you're going to save money tying your own flies. I find you start spending way too much money on material when you're spending.
00:22:27 Harold
$90.00 on a you know a a hackle or whatever. Like, that's like, yeah.
00:22:32 Dan
No, maybe not.
00:22:34 Harold
So, but yeah, those are those where I get. But you know, we get some monster vests here in Michigan by Harsens Island on the Bay on Muskingum Bay and all the tributaries around here.
00:22:46 Gary
Very nice. Haven't done much fresh water fishing lately. Hot water. But yeah, I can relate to that. And saving money, they can test full of lures. I've never used before. I mean, I've got the garage full of fishing rods and reels. Yeah, I.
00:22:51 Harold
OK.
00:23:01 Harold
OK.
00:23:06 Gary
Yeah, I get that.
00:23:07 Harold
Yep. Yeah, it's, it's, it's it's. It becomes an addiction. I mean, 1995 rolled around and I went, I need a drift.
00:23:15 Harold
Boat I don't.
00:23:15 Harold
Want to buy one? I'm going to design and build my own, so I, you know, read all the books on it, read all the books on it by Goujon brothers on both building and the West Systems epoxy. And next thing you know, I'm out in the garage.
00:23:28 Harold
Building a 14 1/2 foot stress skin, mahogany drift boat custom design, and I still have it to this day. I do have to do a little bottom repairment cause it took a little beating on some rocks and starting to get a little soft, but that's what it was there.
00:23:43 Harold
So but being able to hop in a boat and just go down a river and just be by yourself around the bend and just, you know, wildlife everywhere, you can't beat it.
00:23:53 Gary
That is so just kicking back. Relaxing I can't.
00:23:58 Gary
Very nice.
00:23:59 Harold
Every said it was cheaper than a therapist, but after time, I think I spent more on gear than on a therapist, probably.
00:24:08 Gary
Nice. Very nice. Yeah.
00:24:13 Gary
Can I get one more?
00:24:14 Harold
Question go for it.
00:24:16 Gary
Cool. Would you ever go do some saltwater fishing or just going primarily to stick to fresh water?
00:24:23 Harold
I would love to do saltwater fishing. I would love to be on a flax boat doing some bonefish or something like that. I would love to be out there doing that. Haven't had the chance to. Was hoping to when I was doing some work down in Florida, but I could. I never brought my gear down with me and never found somebody to Take Me Out, but.
00:24:43 Harold
Definitely. That's something I would that I would look at, look forward to doing.
00:24:47 Gary
Well, if you get bored, come to Savannah.
00:24:49 Gary
We got we don't have the.
00:24:50 Gary
Flat flats. But we do have shallow water, sea trout, flounder, drums. We can go up.
00:24:54 Gary
Nice. You have some real fun.
00:24:59 Harold
Awesome. I would love to.
00:25:00 Gary
Do that sounds good. Cheers.
00:25:05 Dan
All right, I want to go ahead.
00:25:06 Dan
And pivot back.
00:25:06 Dan
To the brewery tap room, that sort of built out. Have you ever had a project come across your desk that you were just flat out saying no to? And why did you say no to it?
00:25:10 Gary
Go port.
00:25:18 Harold
So within the brewing industry, we have not turned 1 down yet.
00:25:22 Harold
So we have worked with them. Typically all the Brewers that have come to us have been referrals from another brewery and that's the one thing that we love about the industry. Every owner of the breweries are friend with all the other owners of the breweries and they all support each other and it's to the point of where I actually bring.
00:25:43 Harold
The head Brewers and the owners of breweries too, into my projects to help mentor the entrepreneur trying to start their own brewery, so we have not turned any brewery away or distillery for that matter.
00:26:00 Harold
We've we've always had a great working relationship with them.
00:26:05 Dan
Alright, now it's kind of sticking with the same theme there. Have you had anyone be unhappy with the finished project and how?
00:26:11 Dan
Did you resolve it?
00:26:13 Harold
So, you know, we've had outside of the brewing industry, obviously, yeah, we've had some clients that may have not have liked the design as we're going through and working on it. You know we do have within our budget ample time built in to go through reiterations of the design to work, to a point to where we can get it to what they do like and it's within where they want to.
00:26:34 Harold
Go in the direction.
00:26:36 Harold
You know, a lot of times it's community.
00:26:38 Harold
You know, are they communicating to us their actual intentions or they're just saying what they think we want to hear, so we have to do a lot of upfront, just conversations with them as to, you know, what are you looking for? Do you have any inspiration photos that you like that you can?
00:26:56 Harold
Share with us.
00:26:57 Harold
It's hard to read your mind, but if you can put it together in an in.
00:27:00 Harold
Image sometimes you get like an image where somebody says they want to do contemporary, but then we get an image of something looks Victorian. It's like well, wait a minute. These are two and they go. Oh no, I like the door handles and the Victorian one only I didn't like the whole thing. But I still want to go the other way. So we have to do invest basically the investigators to to come down and and base.
00:27:21 Harold
And and basically you know, pull it out of them, but it's it's about communication. Having it open, you know, means of communication, providing them with.
00:27:30 Harold
You know, so let me explain the process of our design process. So if we we get a a bully that comes in, we talked to them about their, their size of the brewery, not only just the tap room, because we also get fully involved in doing the whole brew house as well distribution area of it. If they're doing canning or bottling, you know, how does?
00:27:49 Harold
That fall into place.
00:27:51 Harold
We we go through their program requirements as it's called and then we will get our contract together and then they sign the contract, we move forward. But first steps first is like let's look at programming, let's look at feasibility, let's look at adjacencies. You know what rooms need to be next to what rooms based on your program, how does that arrange within the building?
00:28:10 Harold
Space that you have and is it even feasible to do what you want to do in the building that you're looking on leasing so early on, we can come in and do test fits and feasibility studies.
00:28:22 Harold
On a lease base that they may have not assigned a lease yet on or have signed a lease but have a 90 day hundred day due diligence period. And if we find out code reasons or spatial reasons or even environmental reasons that you know what you need to get out.
00:28:37 Harold
Of this, it's not.
00:28:37 Harold
A good fit for you. They have that ability to get out.
00:28:42 Harold
After programming we go into schematic design where we start coming up with loose design sketches based on our feasibility and our programming, and we will give 123 iterations of what that floor plan is going to.
00:28:55 Harold
Like you know this, I'll say I'll one example was, you know, stumbled on Brewing Company. They they came to us and they wanted us to design A brewery based around the Scandinavian term, Hugo.
00:29:08 Harold
But in the meantime, their brewery was named Stumblebum, who was a bum that wandered the United States or wandered the world carrying his little sack on his shoulder that looked like a hop. But he was clean cut and dressed nice. He wasn't really a bum, he was just.
00:29:25 Harold
Eccentric. So we go through the whole exercise for huga and we really went towards Scandinavia heavy and he's like this is kind of missing the point for like the bomb. He's supposed to be like traveling. And I go. So I'll bumps travel on like, rail cars. So I did a quick sketch of the bar face making it look like an old rail car.
00:29:45 Harold
And then that's it. That's what I'm looking for. So we changed some other stuff. So again it it's it's getting, you know, what is it that you really want to have and how do we actually express it? So he was kind of like, I'm not, I'm liking it, but I'm not liking it. You're missing the mark I want. But in the end, we turned it around. It's under construction right now.
00:30:05 Harold
We were so afraid they were going to value engineer out the the rail car because it was so intricate in building it and he said not value engineering that out that's getting built. So he's moving forward with that. But so back to the.
00:30:19 Harold
Process schematic design. If we have to go in front of the Township, the city for site plan approval because it's, you know, looking at parking, looking at landscaping, are they expanding it as a new build? Are they changing the exterior colors? We'll take it through that process. We'll, you know, we'll work with them on that once that's approved.
00:30:39 Harold
They love their schematic design. We move into design development where we bring in all of our consulting engineers, electrical engineers, Mechanical Engineers, structural engineers if needed.
00:30:48 Harold
That we've created a sort of a conglomerate of trade, our engineers and professionals that we can support the brewery to any extent. We have business consulting agents that can write the business plan and help them get investment packages put together and get financing for the brewery we have.
00:31:09 Harold
The commercial insurance provider we have Web page marketing and menu design that we can provide to them and and you'll give them the name of the referral.
00:31:19 Harold
To we have the biggest one is legal, getting that MLC license or brewery license in any state you you need a.
00:31:31 Harold
Knowledgeable legal team that does this day in and day out because a lot of breweries just sort of linger waiting for that license to come through. Whereas if you have the professional.
00:31:42 Harold
You know, or hire all the professionals you can focus on what you need to focus on your recipes and your beer. Let us do the work to help your brewery get facilitated. We'll have a handful of meetings with design development. We'll start doing interior design at that time. Selecting colors, materials finishes for the tap, room for the blue.
00:32:03 Harold
We'll start showing pros and cons. We'll give adults and deduct alts like you know, if you put this in, it's going to cost more. But if you take this out, it's going to cost less. So we give options within our drawings and then once they approve that, we move into the actual, you know, nuts and bolts or the construction documents.
00:32:22 Harold
Which goes for the contractor to the city for permits, the health Department for Health License.
00:32:28 Harold
I mean, which is really just the afterthought or the product of our knowledge that we bring to the table and we stay on board during construction to do site visits. Right site reports, are they following the documents? Have there been any unforeseen conditions, you know, draft horse?
00:32:48 Harold
You know, we ended up taking a look at the floor with all the fermenters we're supposed to go and realize that the existing floor needed to come out because it would not be able to support A20 barrel.
00:32:57 Harold
Fermentor on three legs and we don't want to see a domino effect happening, so we we work with the with the, the owner and we work with the contractors throughout the whole construction process till it's approved, permitted and open for business.
00:33:14 Dan
All right. Now keeping with that theme, you don't have to name any names if you don't want to. But what was the most?
00:33:19 Dan
Difficult design that you were.
00:33:21 Harold
Ooh, most difficult design that we worked on.
00:33:26 Harold
I want to say I'll name names because it's an unbuilt project and that was black hop because it was a very small building. The three adjectives was crazy sexy. Cool.
00:33:39 Harold
And the the building that they were looking at purchasing was like an ice cream or pastry shop that was painted pink and purple and teal.
00:33:49 Harold
With some very ugly ethos on it. So we have to figure out how to get rid of that, make it crazy sexy, cool. Be able to get a tap room in there to Max out the occupancy as close as we could to 100 without having to put in fire suppression and sprinklers. But then in the brew house, get a three barrel.
00:34:08 Harold
System with five fermenters, A distillery and therefore doing craft distillation.
00:34:14 Harold
In a kitchen with a turbo chef conveyor oven for doing flatbreads and sandwiches, I mean it was a tight fit and it's like we squeezed every inch out of this project and it turned out absolutely cool. And then funding could not get handled obtained.
00:34:34 Harold
And the project did not get built.
00:34:37 Dan
I'm actually with the words they gave you to work off of. I'm surprised you didn't make it themed off of the.
00:34:42 Dan
Band TLC. I think that would be pretty.
00:34:43 Harold
Well, we, we did, we did. We did catch that, but we didn't want to like go that route. You know, we did some really cool things with their awning because they were black hopped and it was, you know, had the hop motif in there and the city would not allow you to do graphics that had the name of the building in it. So we took their graphic and exploded it.
00:35:06 Harold
And broke it up on the awnings that if you looked at the awnings and you knew their logo, you knew it was them, but it didn't say blackout. So we did some cool things with the awnings we did, you know, punched Windows in areas, open the space up because again you'll one thing I learned being in this industry and doing a lot of restaurants I.
00:35:26 Harold
Mean you want to.
00:35:26 Harold
See and you want to be seen. You know, if you're in a cool restaurant, you want people walking down the street going. Hey, look, there's Dan having a beer. Let's go say hi to him, that he's in a cool place or you want to have Dan going. Hey, friends. Come over here or, you know, have a beer with me because you could see them walking by.
00:35:43 Harold
Right. Well, the, the, the worst thing you can do is just board it up and not let anybody see what's going on inside, because if there's excitement and there's movement inside, more people want to come in and see why is there excitement and movement going on inside or if you get a band, then they're playing. So we open that place up and the city loved it. They approved it immediately.
00:36:03 Harold
Unfortunately, like I said, it didn't get built, but it it was. You know, we brought in for like the the the sexy we brought in like iridescent. So your descent ceramic mosaic tile for the exterior elevation around the entry.
00:36:18 Harold
Or we brought in a lot of lighting that was very glitzy. We brought in a lot of really high gloss finishes on the interior. Again to exemplify what a cool space, somewhat crazy patterns in it. But it just was damn right sexy.
00:36:36 Dan
And one more question here.
00:36:37 Dan
Before I ask enough to.
00:36:38 Dan
Kind of staying on the same.
00:36:39 Dan
Thing theme, what is?
00:36:41 Dan
The weirdest request you've received from a brewery?
00:36:44 Harold
Ohh weirdest request crap. What would be the weirdest request?
00:36:50 Harold
I don't think anybody was weird.
00:36:55 Harold
Sheboygan was pretty straightforward. Cadillac Straights didn't have anything. They just let us drive it.
00:37:03 Harold
Stigs well stigs, I mean, I think one of the odd things there is I don't if anybody knows, Stiggs Brewery company, he's a.
00:37:10 Harold
Whole comic strip about stigs.
00:37:12 Harold
He's a lumberjack that saves the world with beer, freighting people like sneaky squirrels and you know, like the other ones are kind of their whole series of it. So anyways.
00:37:24 Harold
Bringing in that whole lumberjack thing into the design of the build.
00:37:28 Harold
And that building was historic preservation. So the cool thing it used to be an office for a lumberyard that burned down in late 1800s. Then they moved it to downtown Boyne City, rebuilt it, put brick on it, and made it the offices for the Boyne Alpena Railroad. And then it was a historic district. So we did full historic preservation on that building.
00:37:48 Harold
Kept everything crazy idea that I did is we did a bottle cap.
00:37:54 Harold
Mosaic and the sun setting Overlake Sheboygan on the bar face and we ran Lake Sheboygan down onto the ground in front of the bar on the floor. Then everybody asked why we did that and I said well, it's to basically yes. There you go. So the the tile on the floor is supposed to emulate what's known as a running Splatoon.
00:38:15 Harold
Your water would flow down and it goes rough and wild bars of the North Lumberjack company and you could either spit in it or you could just stand there and your urinate in it while you're drinking your beer. So that was my crazy idea that I brought.
00:38:29 Harold
Into that.
00:38:33 Ken
How do you go about?
00:38:34 Ken
Cultivating all of these bottle caps, like curating, I guess, would be the.
00:38:38 Harold
Right word. They ended up we end up buying those. So they're not used bottle caps because they use bottle caps, are always bent and we hated it. So we end up finding a source to buy unused fresh bottle caps.
00:38:51 Harold
So we actually collaborated with an artist out of Ferndale who did when I betties I think it was or in Fern.
00:39:00 Harold
Well, and she created that on three or four plywood panels that we then shipped up to Boyne City and it got put together like tile work on the on the wall of the bar.
00:39:13 Ken
Well, continuing with breweries, a lot of breweries like to focus on sustainability and lessen their carbon footprint. What kind of design aspects can be included to help reach their goals, whether they're doing a remodel or a new build out?
00:39:29 Harold
Yeah. So, so one of the things we look at.
00:39:33 Harold
From the beginning is materiality. You know what? What is the material that we're putting in there. We try to source stuff that is predominantly Michigan based or based within the state we're doing.
00:39:44 Harold
The work in.
00:39:45 Harold
That way we're cutting down on delivery costs and using, you know, fossil fuels for having material.
00:39:53 Harold
Brought in from thousands of miles away or shipped in from Europe or whatever it is. So we look at items like that. We also look at items of sustainability in the form of durability.
00:40:06 Harold
You know, what are we putting in there? How? What is the longevity of it? Is it meeting the standards of commercial grade material? Is it going to wear well? Are you going to have to replace in three years, five years or 10 years? We want something that's going to have some longevity to it. Stigs the bar top, we source from a local sawmill.
00:40:27 Harold
So again, we're keeping it local. We're using waste product like from a sawmill draft horse, obviously the press straw table tops and countertops. So again, we're taking agricultural waste product and we were using that lot of the the the back.
00:40:46 Harold
Bar, which was would laugh all that would laugh, was recycled out of homes in downtown Detroit that were being demoed because they were vacant and they were, you know, a blight on the city. So now we're using recycled material, but we're using in our way that we know it's going to be durable. It's going to last, and it's going to, you know, again.
00:41:05 Harold
Be reused. I have not yet had a brewery be able to come in and do solar energy or solar power on their roof to help with their electrical costs. A lot of these buildings have been small roof.
00:41:20 Harold
Prints facing possibly the wrong direction. A lot of mechanical equipment on the roof that would, you know, basically not allow for the solar panels to be installed properly in the array that you would need to do on the roof. I have a background with doing solar energy and solar design. I got a project in Treasure Island, FL with 14.4.
00:41:40 Harold
AW.
00:41:40 Harold
The roof. So I have that knowledge and I taught sustainable design at Lawrence Tech. So we I would love to be able to get one of the breweries go, hey, we really want to, you know, try to do all our lighting and what we can, I mean. But a brewery is very much energy intensive.
00:42:01 Harold
It consumes a lot of energy and you you can if but use the solar for what you can use it for lighting. You know smaller appliances, things of that sort.
00:42:13 Harold
The only thing with Michigan, you know, we get 4 1/2 hours of good sunlight on average per day. Obviously our summers have longer or winters have shorter, so it averages out 4 1/2 hours, which isn't too bad because Florida is 5 1/2 hours average. But.
00:42:30 Harold
You know, it's the the payback.
00:42:33 Harold
Over a course of years, usually gets value engineered and they're cut out of the project because it doesn't pay back in time. They're spending a lot of upfront costs. And again, as everybody knows, breweries are very expensive to get up and running by time. You buy your boost system by the time you get your. If you need a boiler, if you need a chiller.
00:42:54 Harold
You know, coolers, you know, all that that goes in the keg washers. And you know if you're doing a kitchen, a full kitchen that becomes very costly.
00:43:02 Harold
So there's a lot of just upfront cost within the actual brewery itself to where they're focusing on that, but selling would be one of them. If you have a large property, we can do geothermal for heat, I would love to do geothermal on projects. I've done it for residential projects. I have not had a commercial project due 1 yet.
00:43:22 Harold
We do look if it's a new build and it's a flat roof, we do bring in light color, roofing materials. So it reflects the sunlight. So you're not having to cool your building.
00:43:31 Harold
As much so because again, you have a lot of heat and latent heat from the steam within the brewery that we got to get rid of. So you're typically cooling all the time. So that type of ideas we do look at them glazing, make sure the energy performance on the glazing, any of the walls we make sure that we're meeting or exceeding.
00:43:52 Harold
All the energy codes for walls and ceiling insulation.
00:43:56 Harold
So those items we do and it's it's part of our our core.
00:44:02 Harold
Of our of our office and our design, we always want to be sustainable. We always want to think about the environment. We want to always do the holistic approach to a project regardless if you're a brewery. If you're a medical office, if your retail facility, if you're a cannabis facility, we always want to bring in that holistic approach of bringing in.
00:44:23 Harold
Making sure that the highest performing building as we can get for the use in which you're using it.
00:44:31 Ken
Well, thank you for that answer. Obviously, I know a lot of people the, the upfront cost to a lot of these projects sustainability, solar carbon dioxide reuse like a lot of that is extremely expensive. And as you said, breweries are expensive to start. But what about for?
00:44:51 Ken
Like say for instance, there are people out there who aren't necessarily doing a a new build like you talked about stumble bum. Maybe they're trying to go into a brewery that's move in like, say, Fort Street Brewing down in Lincoln Park. That's the sale. What are?
00:45:07 Dan
It's a thought.
00:45:09 Ken
Ohh it just sold.
00:45:10 Harold
They they auctioned off all of the brewing equipment a while back and the building just sold, so I'm trying to get an invite or invitation or a a an invitation, but basically introduction to the owner. So I have somebody who sits on the DA down there and there possibly trying to get me to come and do a quick lecture to the DA.
00:45:30 Harold
Find restaurants and design to see if somebody will bite.
00:45:35 Harold
Think about doing something.
00:45:36 Harold
With that place.
00:45:38 Ken
So obviously now that my example is not necessarily a current, what? What about like a a brewery that maybe a has been not brewing for the last few years they've been out of business. Like what is something that someone going in or even for a restaurant like what are the?
00:45:58 Ken
Things that they should look first.
00:46:00 Ken
For structural wise that you know because you don't want to go and buy it and then there's $100,000 bill that just lands on you. Like what? What are some tips you would give to new restaurant entrepreneurs who are trying to get into a turnkey restaurant?
00:46:17 Harold
Got got a great examples on that you know.
00:46:20 Harold
Some of some of the ones I mean say it's been sitting for a while, I mean.
00:46:24 Harold
You know, if it's a restaurant and we had a lot of fog, fats, oils and grease is going down that drain. You know, one of the first things is get those drains scoped, have your your grease trap inspected. Is that grease trap actually working? One of the other things I suggest First off is get a hold of the city engineers because some communities.
00:46:45 Harold
Will not allow you to connect the brewery up to a municipal waste.
00:46:48 Harold
System because if they have a small community and they have a private treatment facility, they may not be able to handle the BYOD's that you're sending down in your waist, your bioorganic demand. And we've had Lion Township is a perfect example of that with draft horse and the first words out of their mouth.
00:47:10 Harold
You will not connect to our sewer system. You will. You will contain, pump and haul all your waste off your site. And we went no.
00:47:19 Harold
So we had to teach to them because they didn't understand that Bill was still 98% water or whatever it is they thought we were putting all this waste down the drain. We had to tell them that we're doing side straining, you know, taking us to spend grains, spent yeast, true, getting rid of that before we start flushing stuff down the drain.
00:47:39 Harold
But we've had a.
00:47:43 Harold
Distillery that when I moved in that Township and I said go talk to the engineer and he called me up afterwards said Oh my God, they were like lecturing me like I just broke their law and I was already operating. And all I wanted to do was get some advice from them. So city engineer number one, talk to them. What can you send down the drain? What are they going to make you do some cities.
00:48:03 Harold
They have a like a tariff or an additional cost on your waste because they're in industrial use and your industrial waste, they have to pre treat it so they'll charge you extra for that.
00:48:15 Harold
So that waistlines, grease traps rooftop units are the rooftop units functioning? Get a reparable mechanical contractor to look at them and fire them up to make sure that they're operating. Also, have them check your hood. You know, has that hood been cleaned? Does the Ansel system work for it? If you're doing something with grease and.
00:48:36 Harold
Flying underneath it, if it has an Ansel system, if it's existing in the space, make sure that's up and running.
00:48:43 Harold
Do you have the proper water line coming into the space? Because again, breweries have a high water demand. Can you have the proper pressure to do what you need to do to brew your beer? And then the other thing is is you know, try and get the you know the the specs on the water from the city. I mean if it's coming out of the Detroit municipal water.
00:49:03 Harold
System. You know, your water's pretty darn good. But if you're coming from somebody that's pumping it from a well, treating it themselves, putting it in a storage tank and pump it to you, can they supply your demand or, you know, are you going to get rusty water coming at you? And now you gotta put a full RO system in?
00:49:20 Harold
Which is cost that you didn't think about.
00:49:23 Harold
Trench drains. Are they in the proper location flooring? You know if it is an existing restaurant they're going to put your your brewery equipment in. Does it have epoxy on it? Is it the proper epoxy? It's not going to get broken down by the cleaning agents for your brewery. Tanks are the trench drains in the epoxy.
00:49:42 Harold
Done right, because that has been always the biggest, you know, maintenance item for any brewery that I've seen is the epoxy cracks right by the trench drain. And then you're constantly preparing and patching it and redoing it and it becomes nice.
00:49:53 Harold
There the other things too on on that is if it was an existing say bar or restaurant, they had an existing cooler for beer and they have tap lines. How old are those tap lines? How old is the equipment? You know, do you want to risk cleaning it or is it better to just to?
00:50:13 Harold
Pull it all out and redo it.
00:50:15 Harold
So again, that's one of the items to look at. How long has this building been sitting?
00:50:21 Harold
Because again, that is going to, you know, become an issue. We've had restaurants and breweries go in that or brewery that go into an existing restaurant that had the proper size, hot water tank and when they filled it, they found out that this $9000 water tank leaked like a sieve because the previous owner.
00:50:41 Harold
Over drained it and it froze because they shut the heat off to the building for three years and it it broke seals everywhere. So those are the items that start taking. It's mainly the mechanical systems.
00:50:52 Harold
You know, walls, roof structure, flooring. Take a look at what's your flooring? We just went through with the distillery that wanted to take over and purchase a building and it had a basement. It's right where the.
00:51:07 Harold
You know, fermenting tanks would go to get their low lines where the distillery was going to go and everything like that. And this building was built early 1900s. It was supported by two by eights. It's you're not putting any load on that other than people walking back and forth. So that became like a $40,000 cost.
00:51:27 Harold
Just to rebuild this small section that was maybe 300 square.
00:51:31 Harold
Feet of floor.
00:51:32 Harold
To be able to support the load and the weight that was.
00:51:34 Harold
Going on.
00:51:35 Harold
Top so those are the items to start taking a look at. Those are the usually the larger ticket items, finishes walls, stuff like that. Those are usually your lower and those can be worked out easily. But the the bigger items structural is root structure is it wood is it metal.
00:51:53 Harold
Hit a supporter chiller if you're putting a chiller up there, or two chillers up there can support the fans for your hoods. If you have hood.
00:52:01 Harold
Especially if you have an open boiling ton or louder ton, I mean the seat just going up. You got to have a hood over that. So you got to put equipment on the roof and fan everything else. Do we have the capacity to support that way? So that would be from a structural component.
00:52:21 Harold
It was about the items I.
00:52:22 Harold
Could think about.
00:52:23 Ken
All right. Well, as we end each and every show, we all ask one final fun question to get to know you a little bit more before we send you on your way. Starting with Wendy, Wendy, what is your final question for Harold?
00:52:37 Wendy
Well, I am pretty sure that you've been to.
00:52:40 Wendy
A barrier too.
00:52:41 Wendy
So I'm just curious, is there a brewery out there that you have been to that you did not get to design that you're?
00:52:48 Wendy
Like man, this place is cool.
00:52:50 Harold
Ohh wow, there has been a couple. It's gonna be 1 down in Houston, TX and I remember something Buffalo. I can't remember the full name of it, but it was a really, really cool space. The entry was really neat.
00:53:11 Harold
When you walked in, it was two or three stories you could look down into the brew house had a massive outdoor seating area. It was just a really.
00:53:21 Harold
Neat space.
00:53:22 Harold
So that one it would, it comes to mind the most.
00:53:27 Ken
Buffalo Bayou. That's it. Thank you.
00:53:32 Ken
Gary, what's your final question for Harold here?
00:53:36 Gary
If what we'd like to build next.
00:53:39 Harold
What would I like to build next?
00:53:42 Harold
Ooh, I want to get.
00:53:46 Harold
I'd love to do a brewery or distillery that's larger than 20 barrels.
00:53:51 Harold
I like to get into a very large facility and be able to do something like that.
00:54:01 Dan
All right, we'll keep this one really simple. What is your favorite beer currently?
00:54:05 Harold
So my favorite beer style is going to be Belgian triple and anytime I see a one on a menu, I'm going to go ahead and try it. If I had to say the favorite of that type would be dragging me currently, but I do have sort of favorites at each one of the breweries that we designed. Sneaky squirrel.
00:54:25 Harold
Stigs 18 hands high over a draft horse, silverback and rustic.
00:54:32 Harold
The evil Penguin at Sheboygan Brewing Company, or I'm sorry, called Straight Brewing Company the blood orange honey at Sheboygan.
00:54:46 Ken
That's the one thing.
00:54:47 Ken
I do. I I don't get a chance to like, drink and not drive. So I always have to go with the lower ABV beers these days and Belgian triples are never available.
00:54:58
So I'll if.
00:54:58 Ken
If I get final absolution at home or unibrew.
00:55:02 Ken
Lucinda mun. I'll bring that home.
00:55:05 Ken
So I I prepped you for.
00:55:07 Ken
And while we go tonight, back when we had John Mallett on the show, he talked about a brewery in Southfield called Etouffee, which was a brewery and restaurant over above. I believe the Star Southfield theater.
00:55:23 Ken
Yes, Brewery was put in and then basically bricked in to the point where I believe it was impossible to get out and was still in the facility as of when Star Southfield closed in the year year 2020. So my question to you is.
00:55:42 Ken
Whose idea would it be to have done something that crazy? And how would they have gotten it out after the fact?
00:55:49 Harold
Oh my God, I have no idea who I thought doing something like that. Who would want to sit there and build in a, you know, equipment that you could never remove? Never replace, never service. That's just nuts.
00:56:02 Harold
I think the only way you're going to get is out is when they demo that place completely and redevelop that site. I know it's been shut down now since 2006 is when A2 fake closed and then I know the the Star theater shut down the theater during COVID in 2020.
00:56:22 Harold
And then never reopened it. It's still just sort of dead.
00:56:25 Harold
There. So yeah, I don't know. I would never design something that you can't service. You know you and this is that's a challenge sometimes, especially when you get very complicated buildings as to how do we get something in and how do we get something out. And knowing from the brewing industry.
00:56:45 Harold
Out of the equipment suppliers, they just drop your equipment at the curb. It's up to you to get it into.
00:56:51 Harold
Your space.
00:56:52 Harold
So I mean at that point?
00:56:55 Harold
That was that was stupid.
00:57:01 Wendy
That and it's.
00:57:01
Well, we've, we've.
00:57:02 Wendy
Mechanical. So it's going to fail eventually.
00:57:04 Harold
It's going to fail. Yes, something is going to go wrong and something you're going to need to replace. I just don't understand why anybody would have done that.
00:57:15 Ken
Yeah, I.
00:57:16 Ken
I don't know.
00:57:17 Ken
Cause the the lore of the brewery has has grown since 2006 because obviously I actually was trying to research it earlier today and all I could find was a cranes article about it opening and the cranes article about it closed.
00:57:35 Ken
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Steven Johnson talked.
00:57:39 Ken
About it in his Detroit beer book.
00:57:41 Ken
As like a little blip.
00:57:43 Ken
But that was about it. So I was I.
00:57:45 Ken
Was just curious about if you knew anything about.
00:57:49 Ken
The physical site itself, if it was still there.
00:57:52 Ken
If there's, you know, anything.
00:57:54 Ken
Going on. But yeah, as you said, if something goes wrong and you have to replace something like, you can't even replace it like you have to fix it or you're done. So I.
00:58:03 Harold
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's maybe that's why they closed down. It's cause the beard just sucked.
00:58:09 Ken
I didn't say that.
00:58:10 Harold
I don't know. I don't know. I will be honest. I've never been there and I've never been to that star theater. So I I have never personally stepped foot in that location.
00:58:11 Ken
Who am I gonna?
00:58:13 Ken
From 17 years ago.
00:58:24 Ken
I I I wasn't old enough to drink by the time they closed, so I will definitely age myself young there. Harold, how do they find you? Someone wants to open up a brewery. A restaurant needs some architecture help. Where?
00:58:37 Ken
Can they get?
00:58:38 Harold
A hold of you where they can get a hold of that. OK, we have our web page which is www.designteamplus.com.
00:58:45 Harold
Which is all spelled out.
00:58:46 Harold
In Word, we do have the design team plus Facebook page. We do also have an Instagram page and then we also have our YouTube page where we have some of our renderings and animation walkthroughs and some of our religious, you know, facilities that we've worked on. So those are the areas phone number 2.
00:59:06 Harold
485591 thousand it would be where they could call to get a hold of us and love to talk to anybody looking on or expanding or thinking about doing a brewery distillery.
00:59:20 Ken
What about a winery?
00:59:21 Harold
I'll do a winery. Yeah. Anything. Craft beverages. Just put it that way. I'll even do something that does. You know, non alcoholic beverages. That's like, up and coming.
00:59:30 Ken
Alright, Harold. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. That is going to do it for this episode. Stay tuned, we will be back with the craft Beer News segment, but no matter what you think of.
00:59:33 Gary
Welcome.
00:59:43 Ken
Your beer, we think it's.
00:59:45 Ken
Better on draft. Have a good night.