The State of Tech Journalism with Kylie Robison and Mike Isaac

Alone media, nobody say anything weird.

Than me.

Hello, Ande, Welcome to Better Offline. This is the second episode of Better Off Live, the life to tape show that I do whenever I travel, and I pick up wonderful people like my good friend Mike Isaac from The New York Times, who joins me today, and of course Kylie Roberson, the one for Kylie Robison from The Verge. Thank you both for coming, thanks for having me, Thank you. And today is and I'm definitely checking the date on my phone Friday, the nineteenth of July. So nothing big

I'm just waiting for them to be useful. Does that make sense or like, like I don't know, Like it feels very I mean you tell me, like we're like super steeped in it, but like it feels very like everyone I have decided this is the thing we have to build, or this is the thing we're moving towards, and like the utility of it almost comes later, like they're sort of like ahead of themselves.

A little strange.

I'm surprised, but I'm also steeped in it, and I try to get my friends to use it to see if it's helpful. My civil engineer partner has started using it for seismic projects, which is very very niche thing, but obviously it's not accurate.

Yeah, no, orever, that's not ever. That's the thing though. They keep saying, well, it hallucinates now, but it won't in the future. And then you say why and they go, oh, sorry, how even and they go, well, we will get to that. Yeah after right, answer this phone call in the other room.

So it's like five miles down the road.

Because watching the last few years with the metaverse and Crypto and all this, this is kind of beginning to look like I realized there's a product. No, but I remember back in twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, there were these roadmaps you get. You get the roadmap for like the Border Yacht Club, and it would be like the first thing would be whatever they launched, and no, you're a big investiment.

Please don't try. That's a joke. Just to be clear.

New York Times editorial part. If they do, it's my joke. You have these roadmaps, it would be like, yeah, step one, we released the apes. Step two, we will have a special chat room for the apes. Step eight.

Step one release the apes. Good you can swear, okay, just check.

This is a cuss fill podcast. You can say fucking shit and all the words, okay, but on the rub and then step eight would be like a real life club in Miami for apes, And I'm actually being serious that is on the roadmap, and they've promised this like metaverse where you can play as your apes in the computer, and all of that seems more real than steps two through five of the open AI reasoning thing. But it's almost like to your point, it's like everyone is just committed to this bit now.

I feel like for me a lot of the time and I'm thinking about it just feels like constant fomo across the industry and like always keeping your eye on like what your.

Competitors are doing.

And like part of this I think may be legitimate because of people are always like, oh, we missed the smartphone right, or we missed like the next platform play that we shouldn't have and that's instructive and because Google

Me and Edward just talking about this about the generative distinction. Yeah, I don't know. I do kind of buy the hyphe a little bit. I guess I don't know it's good.

Ed knows this.

But did you guys see the lighter model. Do you guys have some opinions about that.

I don't have opinions that tell.

Me, oh god, the lighter model is cheaper.

Uh. They say it's smarter, but technically it's supposed to be you know, less computing power for cheaper, so people can build whatever shit they want that they couldn't because it was way more expensive with a larger and more capable model. And you don't need to like build a shitty little bot with like a giant model anyways, a little model exactly.

Okay, I get the sense in that.

Yeah, so but they did that because you know all of these Mistral just released a lighter, tinier model, Anthropic has a tiny model, Google has a tiny model, and people developers are more likely to go to those models whether I build something, and Chat did not have anything of the sort.

So yeah, So my biggest problem with that is everyone is racing to the bottom, and a race to the bottom is not traditionally something associated with good outcomes. And so it is good that it's cheap or whatever, but also this company is still not profitable. This company is still not particularly useful, and so you've got this situation where everyone's like, well, on top of not being profitable and on top of not being super useful, we're also

No, I'm really interested in that. I mean, there's the was it six hundred billion dollar problem, right, yes.

And then the trillion dollar Goldman Sax problem.

Yes, exactly.

It does feel that way that there it's just like, let's just keep dumping money into this thing that it's it's not useful now, we hope it'll be useful in the future.

You know. It all just feels kind of disingenuous as well, because they're not even dumping six hundred million dollars into AI because Google has had AI initiatives. In fact, Google deliberately avoided the metaverse. Yeah, incredible one move by Sun Dar Well done, mate, But they've been piling money into AI like over a decadic quite deep mind every time, but like this is the one you put the money into, like this is this is your king and it's just

Yeah, oh I get it.

Yeah, I get why people have to say, like, oh yeah, the five magical layers of reasoning, even though the logic with that and by the way, for the listeners and just skipping over a thing you should I should have told you about. There was a story that came out in Bloomberg and it was saying open AI now has five levels of reason, of steps towards of artific intelligence towards superintelligence, and step one is like chat bop. Step two is like agents agents, and it's just very vague.

Yeah, crypto is instructive, I think there. But I totally agree with you that it it sort.

Of becomes a self fulfilling or like it it becomes like weighty because of the attention it gets, and it gets more attention because of that. I do think that like there is a way of covering it, and hopefully a way that media learned from a lot of the bubble around crypto, A lot of the bubble around I think self driving again is like another instructive case, just because like everything was five years away for twenty years basically, and I I think it's like I think you're right.

I need to read my own pero, but.

I really don't read my own bo But but so you can't ignore the money. But at the same time, I do think you can. You can at least introduce a level of which I hope we're getting better at, which is like, Okay, this is like a thing. Everyone thinks it's the thing, but like, can we please take the temperature down a little bit? And I do think that like Goldman, Sachs and Sequoya notes that you're referencing, which poor at least some cold water on it is getting there is moving us towards that.

Sekoya one though, because he's just like, yeah, it's no real problem being solved, super expensive and yeah, but you know, I still think it's good.

It's just the way you gotta talk to your book.

There's a great bit in it as well where he was saying like, yeah, the new the new B one hundred processes man video that they're like twenty five percent better, but only like twenty five percent more expensive. It's not like he's saying, look more efficient, because that's if video came up with something which Jensen Wong is incapable of doing, that was more power efficient rather than more powerful, that would actually be significant because look, I would hate to

Because we're in front of Mike's.

But also I wouldn't have brought you on here if I didn't like it that otherwise I would just be like in trouble, you fucking But it's it feels like the rest of the media is kind of flubbing it as well, because there is a level on buff you do this whis good. There's a lack of context any of this shit, the sheer amount of money this costs, and the way that people look at the tech industry outside of pech is souring so badly because of this,

Yeah, oh yeah.

It's really important to have that distinction. And this is a really good advice that I got from one of my favorite podcast hosts, is that you should write about You should write about what you're what they're doing today and not what they're saying they're going to do later.

Most of today's kind of.

Boring research safety mechanisms that they're deploying and very like tiny tiny, tiny little steps to the large language model. But it's not like we're going to solve the climate crisis and also destroy the climate and physics.

Yeah, it's it's wild.

I feel like some of the problem around coverage and I don't think everyone does this, but I think like this is all happening at the same time the media is getting destroyed as and so like institutional knowledge goes out the door a long time. Like I feel like I mean, just speaking for myself, I feel lucky that I've had a tech job for fourteen years or covering tech for fourteen years, so like still like a drop in the bucket as far as like the history of the valley, but like I've.

Been through a few of these cycles, so I can at least.

Rattle off shit that I know, like from whatever. And I feel like when Google is no longer servicing news in the same way it is, Facebook has pulled out of news completely, like it's it's killing everyone, but the like really big players and even the really big players are getting hit.

So I think it's just like it's not there are a few things going on there. I guess what I would say, Do.

We think that the Perplexity incident changed anything?

So the Perplexity incident for listeners is.

For me, it's no I have.

Yeah, I have wonderful listeners who are not in the tech indust trying to learn from me. Your mistake, not mine. This is the Perplexity AI. They're a company that lets you search using the power of AI. When they first announced it was like ship this is Google's dinner being eaten in front of them. Wow. And the latest thing they did was they do article summaries, which is just otherwise known as stealing, and they ripped an entire Forbes

But tech tsk is great.

And so you have this thing where it would generate this story and just rip it off. And they ripped off the Forbes story. And then when Forbes complained, John Pachowski is John and he just ripped them public and so Perplexity's answer was to add citations at the top to four or five places that had aggregated.

The yeah story.

And it's just like, this is the thing. I do not understand why the tech media is not more antagonistic to these people, because fucking how, come on, man, don't steal my shit. You've already been doing it. Yeah, And it feels at this point like some of the tech media are kind of like trying to kick that football at Charlie Brown. Yeah, they won't screw us over this time, And then they do and it's even worse than before.

But I don't know if it's like a level of complacency though, it's just like, I don't know. It just seems like people are so tired and everyone's getting fired and things are We're so over, you know, we're so cooked.

It's like it's like, what do we do ever been so bad? So I feel like that's a bit of it as well. At least that's what it feels like to me, is people are like this sucks. I don't know what to do.

Also, what's weird as well is everyone's acting like tech isn't fun anymore, and it isn't. When you look at what's in the tech media now there is. I'll send this to Max zep from tech Crunch. Lovely Fella used to be a Gizmodo. I was talking to him about this and it's like, take is this industry when you look at it that combines the best of sports journalism,

In diligence on as well, because he.

Did no inspection and like a coyote took up residents in his backyard, bloody to his house. It's like, I can't believe I lost money as he drives like a five million dollar ugly assed car.

Like, oh yeah, I didn't even know. I've never even heard of that car in my life. I mean, I saw THEE.

I'm not saying anyone should do this, but if someone let out the tires, very funny.

No comment.

No, I'm not saying anyone should do it, but if it happened unrelated to me, especially legally speaking, take picture easy better offline dot com, email me THEE.

I did say he was busy this weekend, so that makes sense.

Yeah yeah yeah, and it's it's definitely not just hanging out with my friend and drinking a bunch of beers. But the thing is, like that is great gossip journalism, Like that's just fun.

She gives a shit.

Katen the Topless BI has done a really good job at this as well, Like there's so much fun in this industry. I just bought this weird little thing called a GPD Win four and it's like a thousand dollars little computer. It looks like a PlayStation VT. You can run Windows on, it's playing Diablo four on it. That shit's fun. And you've got this weird crap being made in China. Now we can't possibly touch it compossibly. Weve got to talk about Sam Mortman's magic broken API. Thing

Tech journalists touch a lot of I mean, I think that's like a narrow vision of what we're talking about.

It's the most popular stuff.

I don't even know if it's the most written about. Though. It feels like we've gotten away from the time when we talked about the fun shit. Yeah when it talks, because it's like the money isn't there, and I think that that really is it. Like the money to your point, we have to cover open AI to some extent because even if they are building nothing, they're taking a lot of money to do so, and they're making potentially one hundred billion dollar deals with Microsoft to build a supercomputer.

I don't know if.

It was an episode, but it's just it's frustrating because there is real joy and really interesting ship, like even in the Valley. But it feels like there's less journalists in San Francisco these days. They still are here, but there's not as many. It's not like twenty fourteen twenty fifteen when you had weird indie go go freaks and hackathons, which is still happening. But they're not getting me attention. I wonder what is I think.

I don't know the people in San Francisco. The journalists I know.

I have like a twenty twenty five people deep group chap just young tech journalists, well not all tech, but journalists in San Francisco.

People in one chat yeah whatever the sms or.

Like wha, yeah, it's just a bunch of wack.

There you go.

But they exist.

I think they're still figuring it out and you know, but not to plug my own company. But it's the reason I went to the Verge is because it's just like, will you pay me to write weird shit? And that's all they do. I mean, they just did a bunch of posts on Legos the other day, like.

The yeah oh that I saw that ye yeah yeah.

I literally this morning and I work slack.

I was like, I sort of miss blogging, like it was very it's very yeah.

Posting just let me just let me say whatever, and they do, like I can really just go at it with any I love blogging. That's why I got into tech reporting.

So I feel like that is actually text salvation.

Hm, it's blogging.

Save the blog.

I'm not serious, because it's the thing I wrote today, which will become a script and you're gonna read it and then you're gonna hear it. You'd be like the newsletter and the podcast was similar, and you fucking do an episode anyway. But writing that up and being able to go at it, and I'd realize them in a

Industry totally, totally.

I haven't had that experience of writing analysis until I came to The Verge, and it was kind of beaten out of me in a sense, is that you're really not supposed to have an opinion, and you're really supposed to be, you know, just just very very neutral. And then I found a lot of the people who follow my work really liked when I said what I thought about a specific topic, which is I know, silly and kind of a given for many people, but I think it's it's valuable.

You know, did you come up in traditional orgs.

I came.

I started at BI so that was I was a software developer culture reporter. So it was like this software developer built this project and they're doing this ye know.

Which which was so fun.

But then it was like scoop City, Peloton stuff, so that's very you know, and then it just and then I came to Fortune and then it was all Twitter Fortune Magazine, so it was all Twitter reporting the implosion ex Twitter, and so then that wasn't so fun. I mean, it was really fun as a journalist, and then the audience is like, I'm really tired of hearing about this, honestly, So yeah, now I get to do more of the like analysis.

Just what sticks out to me is when you really take a step back, this entire industry is just what did Sam Oltman get up to you today? Oh my goodness? And he had a bit of that with what with w w DC. You have people taking a photo of him and then he did nothing, which is I love that Tim Cook humiliated him. I didn't see it that, no, no, no,

It was great.

I'm sure it was like a normal conversation, but I'd like to believe.

It was like okay here and I said, sit at the back, Samuel, I did I have heard more of the It's actually really interesting because like there was this period of like, let's I mean, this is in my head, but I feel like there was the like heyday of tech where it was like guys and hoodies and everyone was like, ooh, this is aspirational.

Then we went through like a correction of like more accountability journalism and like everyone's going after X company or whatever, and like I think that exists to some degree now still in a big way. But I also feel like there's maybe a push from some folks with the sentiment that you're giving, which is like can we is there like fun or interesting or aspirational things that we can write about or think about again that we miss hearing about, which I've.

Been I've been thinking about a lot more.

It's like it's weird, like to like historically I feel like I've done a lot more of the like critical stuff, but I like there are interesting things going on that maybe we could focus on. But it's also not like an either or you know, like I still feel like you can do both of those things. It's just figuring out who can do that and who wants to do that, maybe totally.

And it's advice that so both Kylie and I share the same mentor the wonderful Matt Weinberger. I see enough to this the guys sen say bloggers. And one of the things he said to me, and I'm sure he said to you is people come to you for your voice. And it's true, and it sucks because you have so many people like you, Mike. I'm not saying anything's wrong with the times, but it's not like your style comes through there is.

It's like a house style. Yeah I have to sort of yeah.

But also an interesting fucking fellow and it doesn't get to come through. And Fard we need far haadback.

Mike's sweets for sure.

Far had He did the thing about men not washing their asses, and I was like.

God, that was a good If you've not heard of him, he is a writer, is a Slate.

He's at the New York Times, and he would just a lot of his articles have just him going like the American Adrian chills, Yeah.

Adrian Childs, Yeah, guy who writes like I have a.

Urinal in my house and my guests are upset far had did and kind of what Kate in the Topless is doing business inside it. And I swear to God that is where tech finds its salvation because all of this financialization of everything is just fucking boring. I'm sorry, I will do I do my episodes about it, but I'm pissed off for many reasons at all times. But a lot of it is cutting through the financial stuff to say, what's actually happening. Why did Google Search get worse?

Wait, it was that huge chunky I had that too, because it was like a fat piece of shit.

But it could hold five thousand song.

It's all good. Five thousand at the time is incredible.

Love that and it's weird.

It's like tech doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to do something. But the tech industry right now feels like it's not perfect, but it's also not good totally. It's just we need to get back. We need crunch gear back crunch gear. Crunch gear was the tech they did the gadget thing Neving called away. Legend met him in Canada about a month and a half ago. Legend just why about any old ship and it's fun and

Yeah, all the like real meaty stuff is kind of I mean, well, I think they have a lot at stake because everyone's sort of locked down and shut up because.

It's and they're making a lot of money.

Exactly, Like why would they they talk shit when they're gonna make it?

But open ai isn't know, but I think the verticals the reason so I actually I think about this a lot is like how can we how does coverage like change or how can like big.

Companies or big institutions like mine or like whatever like do that, And like a lot of it is down to Okay, a business desk needs a beat reporter for X, Y and Z companies because this is how you is how you do it or this is how we do it, and like it's a business desk, so it has to

On what the what is the mission here?

Are we saying this is a bad business because it's not making money? Are we saying it's a bad company because it's bad for the world in X, Y or Z way, you know, And the stories kind of feel schizophrenic or like at odds with one another, and like I don't know, I don't know if that's a you have to define that.

And then like just also like I can just speak with the times.

It's like very like this is what a reporter is versus an opinion person. And like coming from like blog land, I have less I like blurring those lines a little bit more. But I also work here, so it's one of those things, you know.

Yeah, Fortune was very much like that, where it's a very specific tone and we had discussed this before and at the verge it really is. I mean, like I just I barely get edited. It's just whatever I'm writing at any given time.

Which is fun because it feels like a personal thing.

And that's why Misato, for example, she rucks why she has been the one person getting se O right. Mea open invite to the show. Fantastic look at Misto the Verge, because she is one of the only people who actually got se O right, and she got it right like a year before everyone else, including myself totally Like she whipped my ass on that one. I've had to site. It works so much, it's great. That's because of the open remit of The Verge. Now I have my critiques

Who's great a talent.

She helped me a lot, and that's the thing, Like I go on Carrot a lot and I'll continue to do so come on the show, Carl, let's work this out.

That would be great, Actually, I would love it.

She not responded to my emails. I can't imagine why. But the one thing she did was she can't let you guys go loose. And that's why you had like Jason Delray, who was one of the best e commerce reporters. He's a fortune now Fantastic News. I didn't actually know that. And you, Mike, you got your start there, Jowski, I believe as well.

Like Pat's great. I can't remember, no it.

Was, but you he was a plastic writer early, one of the best mobile reporters. And also Kara Swisher was there. And but what made that good was it was kind of messy. People just went at some ship and it was good. It was and it was actually at the right time. It was not critical enough. But I don't think that that was. No one was critical at that time.

That's right. I think that. I think that.

I so, yes, A, I think Kars was really good at spot. I mean, just take myself out of it. I think she was good at like she did this recode later just like figure out who's hungry, who's like not been around and jaded for long enough and wants to like hit it hard and then go back to them and like fortunately I was twenty three at the time, so I had more energy than I do now, but or no, twenty five. Fuck, I don't know, but maybe

Yeah, I mean besides what you guys do all.

Things decreated some like just monster reporters and to.

Hear that you guys got that kind of freedom really early on, and like early in your career too, to be like, dude, you know this, you spend all your time working on this, like say what you think here in Yeah, And I think.

These conditions also created. And I'm not saying it's anyone in the media's fault, because it's not the media's job to stop them running shitty companies. But I believe that that period where and it's like the really the late twenty tens where the media just kind of was like, we trust these guys, right, and then we couldn't like we like And I'm not even trying to be nihilistic saying you can't trust the single te fun but I don't know. I wouldn't have trust Mark Zuckerberg. He's a

I watched Silicon Valley recently, and Cara's on that.

It really stands up by the way it's really good.

I actually disagree.

Oh, I thought it was so good.

It was shocking.

I watched it and all I could think, and this is because pr person I'll watch it went it feels like people only like it because it's like they're taking me seriously. I'll take lunch disruptors in it.

That real they did, Yeah they did.

That's great.

But that's the thing. I watched it, and I was just I think I was just an early cynic. Yeah, just like fresh off my first divorce, just like, fuck these people, but it's my first. But also it's funny because things have soured so quickly that I don't think anyone's had time to adjust the irony ears. I think

Oh yeah, totally good at that.

But we need more. We need more of the verge. We need more of this stuff. We need more four o four.

But four or four rocks, four or four rocks.

But also, come on, let the freaks out, let them dogs out. You've got you got Cobler over there, you got you got, you got coal, You've got all these people who can have just the most ass opinions.

Yeah, there's also like this insane distrust in media as well.

Come on with it.

So like if you've seen like you have an opinion, or if you vote a certain way or anything, it's like, oh, well, they're just like a plant.

I actually had someone ask me. I won't say who.

I'll tell you guys after the podcast, but who asked me if I believe that there's like Chinese spies.

And media, I'm not even kidding me.

Damn, you guys.

Definitely know who this is. But anyways, I actually.

Don't have Actually, so.

Anyways, there's like this crazy distrust.

And so when I was coming onto the scene, I'm like, okay, like I don't want anyone to think that I'm going to Jesus Christ. But yeah, so I think it's really banged into you at that point. It's just like, Okay, everyone kind of hates us and doesn't trust us, Like, so why should we get to have an opinion?

I do think there's some So I have to be careful anyways, just because of where I work and because I will get a handslap if I go too far. But like so I kind of know where my internal line is, if that makes sense. But like there is some element of strategy in holding back sometimes if it makes If that makes sense.

Like you have to say it.

You can let the reader like show them, you know, and let the reader have that opinions.

Yeah, well I.

Just think that. Like, look, I think there's two ways.

There's a few ways to go about just from a reporting sense, Like I know reporters who are very outspoken of their point of view, and that works as a sourcing tactic, right, Like they'll be like, okay, people will come to me because they really I'm not talking about the writing side. It's more like a like for me, like just in reporting, I'm like, all right, I can get a range of folks if I'm it's not really

I know guys who are just like yeah and whatever.

That's also a strategy.

Yeah, yeah, totally it is.

But also I don't get done Like it's not like you get random people from Google being like you should hear the ship. I'm like, great, what do I do with this?

Use it? Man?

I have with other people and went by the way, if I send you a story and you don't pick it up. Some exceptions there, of course, I will remember I'm not talking about anyone in this room, just to be clear. But the thing is, I think that there is a kind of a fallacy there, which is if you don't have an opinion, if you're objective, people are

I do think that putting each we all are very competitive, and like, one thing that actually really bothers me is when companies use this to their advantage and like play us off of each other, and like plant they know X Person's about to write this, so they're going to go to why person and plant it, and or like god, there's one person who I won't name, who does this a lot and gets spun by a different company to go after reporter stories, which is another great tactic that

Well, so if someone is doing that, honestly the best thing. And I know that no one would actually do this, but I'm a gremlin, so I would. If I heard that happening, I would just tell everyone. But that would that's the way to stop that.

That's how it all works. I don't think it's just it's not just one person.

It's how it all works.

Yeah, sure, yeah, the oppositional stuff. It's difficult. And I think the part of the reason I brought you in here was I kind of want the listeners to understan than the chaos of this stuff and how multi lad the problems are at the media face in tech because it's such a weird time and it's you've got tech crunch under new management. You've got fortune under basically old business inside of people at time a fortune.

Mink still owns fortune, right is that not even Jesus, let's get you up to dig.

Yeah, but that's the listeners. This is important to know. These are lets are being built and.

Sold owns time now.

And by the way, did you too read the Time And I'm doing air quotes listeners. Article about Ariana Huffington and Sam Ormond's new health.

I didn't read it, now. How is that he really.

Liked it, Charlie Warzaw, I haven't finished the article, but he like lee paragraph.

Have you read his read up?

I have?

Okay, I'm sorry of your opinions. Yeah, I read like the for two paragraphs. It feels like he rips them.

Yeah, paper Machette thinking of But it's good article and he also has a smart point about the belief and I'll include links. Don't worry listeners, Jesus Christ. But the problem with that was was he was in front of Sam Altman and asked him the limpest questions I've ever heard in my fucking life. Charlie, go for the fucking throat, choke him out. Maybe he likes it, don't know. But it's this article, which was a press release.

Or something.

Yeah, dog shit, it was a joint written between Arianna Huffington and Sam Ortman and the secret version of chat GBT. That's even worse, and it just sucked. And it was all of these made up things about how like AI and healthcare will into play, and it was a disappointing moment for me in the media. Though Charlie did a great job doing what he did, and there was a guy at Slater also did a good job, but everyone was just there was a bunch of other people just

You're fully in it. You have a podcast.

It's just I don't think people realize at some point a racist tech publication is going to pop up. Pirate Wires is not going to get be it because it's so poorly written. Do not read it is so bad unless you want to laugh, and also turn on ad blocker, don't subscribe, don't give them any data. But at some point this whole techno fascist movement into the whole techno optimist, which just means fascist when you're quoting Nick Lan, Fuck

Very curious if they can You remember Andrews and Horwitz put that put publication together, Yeah yeah, and then it no one published because like they really realized that, Like I mean, getting people to write is hard, getting them to like commit to do it and have like a regular cadence on doing it, and like turn in your copy is hard, and like I think they.

Media is hard. Yeah, Like I think.

They got ahead of their schemes on that. Like people can riff or whatever, but like it's just I am waiting to see what that looks like. And I think that's why they bet so big on substack, because their whole thing is like, all right, if we don't do an in house thing, then maybe we'll get a legion of people to do it on their own, and then like they can sort of like aggregate that in like

I don't know.

So let me ask you a question. What is a podcast? Miserable little pile of secrets? But nevertheless, how about you have an ad break and we're back. We're back with Better Off Live episode two, which is like episode thirty two of this show, Good Lord, And of course today is the crowd strike situation, and there's an episode about it. We'll get to it, but this feels like to me, at least, we're not gonna get into the technicalities don't worry,

On rad this is where we are.

It feels like we're in a situation where organizations just fire and hire people so goddamn much that this has to happen again, Like there's something something like this is inevitable, especially when you've got generative code, You've got more less software engineers generating more code, and the people above and below them are being fired at random. It's the first time I felt scared in this industry. And I moved to America in two thousand and eight.

Wow, yeah, good time.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to do with it. And also I mean other than the three thousand word news but it's I'm just a bit scared because it feels like every tech company is wrung just in this very messy way, like they're still in the startup mode but also huge.

I don't know if it like I don't know the thing.

Maybe this is naive, but like I often like think about things in the window of what is it called Handlan's razor, which is like, don't attribute to malice, which could be more often chalked up to stupidity or incompetence, right, And like I feel like there to be clear, there are very many bad people in the world doing bad things, but like a lot of the time it's just like

Right, So like I don't I don't know.

I don't know if that's like better or worse than people maliciously doing things.

But if I'm sound it, I don't think someone at CrowdStrike was like, right, I'm gonna crash every window computer. Excellent bit that would be I mean a good bit. Yeah, yeah, just to see what I was doing a bit. No, I think that the problem is Hanlan's razor here is that just tech companies like we must grow, we must grow, and if something breaks, will fix it. Right Mmm, totally, except they don't seem to have fixed it yet still broken, might still stuck at the airport.

I'm glad you flew in early, I guess, yeah, and I.

Was nearly delayed due to thunder in Vegas. I don't know. But also this feels like a situation where the tech media is going to have trouble covering it because it's so complex.

Yeah, I bout out early this morning.

Yeah, I don't know.

I no, I mean, I do think that's where tech reporters, if they're super into it, can like shine. And I don't think cybersecurity reporting is like as much of a specialty at mainstream publications. It's like like it's like random, Like the guy Brian Krebs is like his independent dude who he used to work at the Post but now he's just a hardcore security researcher guy who has his own blog and everyone in the security industry trust him. Basically, and like but yeah, like that, I mean, yeah, yes,

Fault, yes, because they Microsoft runs Windows. But also the reason the CrowdStrike managed to fuck up so much is because Microsoft could have built this themselves and indeed have

A we can talk about it in an abstract.

But also just giving it making it clear that I can say the crazy shit. But it feels like that aren't. And Duron's argument is not put them all in chains. It's these consequences should exist.

And consequences should exist.

Yes, the back of them is why these things keep happening. Because, Okay, an FDC find that finds Facebook four billion dollars is bad for the homogenous lump. That is meta, but it isn't like Mark Zuckerberg has any fear there.

And it was pretty good when he had apologized to the families stood up in court.

But I don't think that's real consequence, you know.

Slightly embarrassing for the man without feelings and it's it's just Sachy Nadella should have a criminal a criminal inquiry here. There should be an actual Department of Justice investigation into this. With both CrowdStrike and Microsoft, there will not be. I had one hundred percent of they might be a Senate hearing if we're lay. But it's all of these CEOs. They operate in this weird kind of bubble where oh, it's a corporate thing. We don't get angry at people

I think that's right.

I think that the fines point is really important because I think they just price it into their budget.

You know, there was a great Times article about training data and how these like meta executives in their boardroom were.

Like, we that was so good. I talk about it all the time. These have you seen this?

I have not these meta executives in their boardroom or wherever. They were like, we need training data and we don't care if we breaked a law because we need to be first.

And it's so explicit, like we don't care. It's priced in. We need to be.

First, and we don't care if we're stealing content, which is crazy.

And I will say this, that's where The Times did their job the best.

That was a really great article people, But the fact.

I didn't read it is my fault. But also that should have been fucking CNBC TV every day. That should have been a bigger story. The fact that these companies can operate not just without concern for safety, but basically being like, oh, it's not a fine, it's a fee. M it's insane. But if Mark Zkapa could go to prison, I mean I wouldn't lost a day.

I do think a lot of the.

I have frustrations just because of how I wonder how deep you can go in a mainstream publication on pretty technical stuff before losing people, and like even like i've uh, I've been super interested in the open source debate, which is, like, you know, in short, just like should all the code for these things.

Be out there or not?

Some people believe it's very dangerous, some people are I think that's over exaggerating it.

I don't I don't know which one is.

Right, by the way, is why I've not done an open source episode, right, I don't know, And.

Yeah, well it's yeah, and like I find that whole thing very interesting, and like I've been trying to write about it a lot, but like I'm like, a lot of this ship is very dense and very and heart not just for and there's no like actual answers to a lot of it and trying to like get that out to a mainstream audience while saying, here's why it's important, here's why you should care about it, here's why you

But I don't, you know, and that's not to insult the general public.

It's just sort of like these things that require a lot of attention and reading just to like break into where the argument starts.

I've been cut I don't know how many times from writing articles because they're too technical or and a thing I've had to do lately.

Which is so funny.

I'm like, okay, if it's really highly technical or just kind of a waste of space, like tokens, how much does this model cost for input output tokens? And I didn't include it in a Verge article recently, and the comments were like, well, how much does it cost? I was like, God, durmit guys, so I replied, I was like, I will add it next time, but like, who cares about the tokens anyways.

I actually see where the readers are coming from.

If they want it, I want to deliver it to them.

But if they don't want it and it takes up space in their mind and they can't comprehend the material, then it's not helpful. So like figuring that out for readers can be hard well.

So as someone went, like the average better offline and listener is like most of their days taking up like holding people up at gas stations, stealing Catholic converters stuff in that and these people, I'm so sorry. But what I've found is because my listeners are because of I think iHeartRadio because of the way they is. I get a lot of people who aren't the traditional listeners, and I do love them. And you don't steal Catholic converts unless you do.

And shout out them.

Shout out to the wrong.

Uns are cadmium.

It's it's what I'm funny is that people actually want things explained more, even the technical stuff. Robert Evans, Surphie Lichten and wonderful people run calls. The all thing is to like break it down. Whatever you think is too simple, go simpler. And I think people in the media for good reason overestimate how difficult something is to get. And I because when you start explaining stuff and planning, it's just like tokens, for example, very confusing and offuscated things.

Yeah, exactly, a character? So it is it's it is very simple. But how many times do I explain that per article? Every time? I'm like these you know, it's kind of a it's like algebra that you have to do when you write so many of these articles. If the audience wants me to do it, that's you know, that's what I told them. I will do it. But it's you know, something Weinberger told me is like, if you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it,

Down early days of the newsletter. I'm just gonna admit that definitely happened.

I did that when I was a young reporter. I still am a young reporter, but.

Still still though it's and I think it's because it's just media is kind of hot and take. You do actually have to understand a lot of shit. Y Yeah, like especially with the general Avai I said. And it's funny because as much I bang on about people not doing it right, it is extremely annoying to explain yes.

Every single time.

It feels like you have to include so much context and it's like when is this helpful for the reader and not kind of like X formerly Twitter all the readers really please just stop saying formally, Twitter.

Stop my epic based website, Please stop stop dead naming. I do feel like.

It's it's very I think they're a different challenges.

Okay, Like I'll explain it just in terms of like the Times challenge, which is like who are you trying to reach? Who's reading this? Uh, what is the like format for what you're writing sort of thing? And like I I like to what you were saying, I definitely don't I think readers are can be smart and curious about what's happening in the world, and I don't think treating them like idiots is the right way to go.

Is always the case.

Yeah, Oh, I think in the media industry, like someone's like, we dropped a five thousand word piece, and I'm like, eh, I think they could be like a two thousand word piece throught that, but like, and that's not always a case, but like, I just think that you can probably do it in different like formats or different like story packaging ways that that I don't know that and but it's like a challenge for me constantly because I'm like, all right, who am I talking to? Am I talking to someone

It's every time I don't explain something, one of the listeners I assume, in between holding a knife to a granny is will be like, you didn't explain that clearly enough, And actually I like that. I like explaining it because also this whole thing about like word counts, I do not have that problem with my newsletter. I put on even thousand words.

Just like just like completely go at it.

Yeah, just fuck it. But also people get so.

Angry when they're like Jesus christad in all.

The funniest one was I did like a four thousand word one and someone sent me an email being like, yeah, that was too long, And the next one was eleven thousand words and.

Relationship your audio, I know.

He was planning to bomb.

A bank, like thousand words quickly.

Yeah, this helpd me up.

Your general if a I think was a great soundtrack to me chasing a man down the street with a hatshit. I'm so sorry.

I know you guys on all criminals, just a large majority. Maybe it's funny because you've really crystalized the problem here, which is what the fuck does the tech media actually do?

Like what is the actual job here? And it doesn't even feel like the various bulkanized outlets.

No, can I say what I think it is? I don't know.

I am the most junior person in this room. Let me say extremely good thank you. But I think you do more work than I do, so you guys, But I think like what I want to do is bring information that they want or didn't have, like love a good scoop, Like, look, I'm giving you information you've never seen, and I want to give it to you in a way that's like that's helping you understand the world better.

Yeah yeah, look on oh, I.

Was like, I fully agree. I think the thing that I really enjoy too is just like it makes me feel good when someone who may be like intelligent but unfamiliar with a topic came away from a piece that I wrote and says that was interesting.

I probably wouldn't have read about that before.

But like now, I like, even if I don't dig it into it anymore, I enjoyed reading about that. Yeah, you know, and like that's ideal for me, just in some form of like why are we doing this?

Why are we doing this?

Yeah?

And I think it can be really corroded by so many things, money and egos and like any other business, And that's what I think we see, like kind of that pressure at the top for a lot of us journalists and maybe why they're really tired. But I think, you know, the best journalists really just want to do their job for the reader the best that they can.

You know, it's not but it's not easy, and we're tired.

We need more fucking nerds.

We do need more nerds.

I agree with that.

We need more little goblin freaks like myself like that.

Yeah, And it's enough about my festival for nerding out on this stuff is good, Like it's just like you understand the topic, you want to get in the weeds of it.

That's a good thing.

But also a list that is in between brewing poisons, they love it though, and the crimes explained of your audience. No, but in no serious my non criminal listeners and indeeds some of the criminals. They like the fact that so my last Step episode that went out and it's a weird timeline when I'm recording this. But the episode that I think really changed my show was did you read this paper? Chat GBT is bullshit?

Now?

It s there's this paper by these three academics in Glasgow called chat gbt's bullshit? But it's based on the Frank thirty and definition from on bullshit defined bullshits. Oh I remember that, and so I cannot remember what the definition is. Just bullshitting myself, I guess. And I get on the call thinking this is going to be like three starchy academics and they're cracking beers and they're having a good time and we had the funniest chat for an hour and I came out there being like, it's

I loved it so much.

I went into weird communities. And I think the tech right now is saturated by stories about everything and everyone for good reason. By the way, just with sympathy here there is everyone wants it, everyone wants the traffic. You have to write, Kylie about the jupt for Minie like h Everyone has to cover these things because it's your beat, but it's getting in the way of the weird fun shit. Like I ran a pr from at day job and I write like eighteen thousand letter words I don't know,

But too far, too far.

Jason Jason calacanis very damp anyway, dampness aside. The positivity is that and I myself have found myself falling into this kind of I don't want to say doomerism because I think it's a fucking stupid term, but the doom and gloom that everything, and we do need to cover these companies messing up. But I think what the problem is and where my anger comes from, and I think you'll share this is all of the bad stuff's getting in a way of some really funny shit TikTok and

That, right.

TikTok has given birth to some of the funniest and sweetest posts. There is a growing community of zoos on TikTok and Instagram, whereas just they put like a camera on a spoon and I feel like worms to and it's like there is still magic, there's still joy within this industry. And I think that the return to blogging that I am so sivorously suggesting and the wider head zychron empire that I dream of one day is genuinely like a return to this, a return to this kind

I get No, I do think that there's an element of I mean, honestly, there's corollaries and tech of like oh this person dropped this story or like this is I mean, Twitter and media probably played into it for a while, but like I heard mentality, mentality around what people should be caring about or writing about, and like that actually like even though I have a I guess I have a beat, but also like I get away with pitching a lot of non beat stuff.

But I think the the thing that.

Maybe that keeps it interesting for me, but also I think can probably help just my job and maybe my career is like trying to zag when other people are going after zigging or whatever line it's very is that, oh god, I sound awful, really like genuinely watch where everyone's going and then like go pursue not just for the sake of it, but because there's something interesting there, you know, And like I think that can really it can distinguish you just from a career perspective, but also

Yeah, no, totally.

The reason I know ed and Weinberger shout out is because I tweeted when I was in college I want to read about weird software developer culture shit, and then he hired me that way, and then that's when I wrote a bunch of I wrote a bunch of weird shit.

I wrote about furries. That was awesome. Yeah, I love those like niche communities.

Oh my first article, one of my first articles was about tech talk. So it was just like all of these technologists. It was a bunch of develop helpers who like software developers who make informational or like parody tiktoks about software development. It was very tech talk, Yes, tech talk like TikTok. It was actually in my pitch like when I was my my exam. When you get hired. Anyways, Uh yeah, I think that's really important to find those like fun stories.

Well, and like I, I, I imagine everyone in this room and maybe if you are really into caring about tech, probably there was probably at least some time and maybe still now like where you enjoyed being a part of it or enjoyed understanding it or right like I, I definitely consider myself like a nerd at heart and like grew up building computers. I don't know if I could do it now, but like I used to and like it.

That are but a double past is just that me? Was that say again, thermble pace you could just get could you have it?

Just like.

Ummy, but like there has to be an element of like caring about this stuff, enjoying this stuff, Like there's a reason why I still enjoy fucking around on the internet, Like like, yes, there's I have criticisms of maybe like the homogenization of how products develop because other companies are looking at how this person is doing it and we

Bad thing totally.

You know.

I think The Times is going to bring back bits.

Dude. That's where I started in twenty Do you know what bits is? Oh dude, twenty joined twenty fourteen, and we used to have long before my gosh, ten years in June it was ten years.

I'm a millennial, so I should be hopping around jobs.

But it's good.

I know.

I know now I can't leave, but I but we It was a blog. It was literally The Times had a tech blog called Bits and it was it was kind of a function of like everyone's blogging at the time, and like, you know, we need to be blogging. And I'm not sure they got rid of it because I'm not.

I don't really know why. The exact reason is probably because it doesn't they Yeah, I think now.

I think now it's like and even now they're still in like a transition period where they're like, we do either huge heaves or now they do like live blogs on like the big breaking thing they do, and like this sort of in between sort of.

Things are going away, is what i'd say.

The like, yeah, five hundred to seven hundred word articles they don't care about as much. And there's probably internet traffic reasons for that. There's probably just like what readers want from a Times article. But Bits was amazing because it was a blog where I could just dump random shit that I that we found interesting and bits.

And the funny thing is, I'm sure of the arguments that be well real reporting. That's where we get right except if you remember, and I do because I'm nine hundred years old in like Mike's age, there was this little guy called Evan Spiegel who Nick Bilton, in a remarkable act of journalism, wrote about for the first time in Bits. It was like one of the first one

Oh my gosh, yes, yes, that was before I started. That was so good.

Didn't get back to me what I mean, very very hurtful, very unfair. I actually forget his name and will now look it up like when I'm talking. But it but stories like that, But that one's slightly different because that was a heavily report. So yeah, but it was good because it was dear. It's a bit weird. Yeah, I want and I hope someone does a story about an airport, like a regional airport that got shut down by CrowdStrike.

Oh yeah, look something like that.

Free story idea right.

There, free story is Actually it's pretty good.

Go for it please, because it's like that is what the big failure I think of the tech media. The biggest is assuming that tech is not and Taylor Renz made this point as well, that tech is not.

Real life, that it's not a human problem.

Yeah, that it's just the thing that happens. The Internet is over here and the real people are over here for sure, when it's not been that for like fifteen years, and it's just the stories like this, I think, like the free story idea of giving away because I do not have the time, but like a regional airport that got fucked up because of the Windows update, that.

Is the reas' going to talk to the humans.

Yeah exactly. And also this is the practical implications of this. We talk about tragicta what have you, but like, when you get down to it, what does this actually do for real people? What's an actual fucking thing happening? And I want like I want bits.

Back my boss?

Who's your boss? Email them now?

I actually don't talk to.

Year mister. That's it with your news prepper fuck ship now. It's it's frustrating as well. And the joy of this show is the I get to do a bit of that, but even then I don't get to go like I don't have the time. If they bade me like three million dollars a year, which is what I demand. No, but if I had more time, it would be like sending people out to do that. It could happen here, which is a sister show a better offline. I guess

Well, I feel like that the.

It's funny because there's like models. That's the thing about media now that I feel like is being hauled out is like either there's the big players who have a very specific model of like, Okay, these are our reporters, these are our opinion people.

Reporters go out and do this.

There's a lot of overhead in that because reporting is expensive and you're not going to produce for weeks or a week or whatever, and then you have the one or two person shops or whatever on substack or something that can riff.

But like.

Either, ay, you need to produce like regularly to live, no, and you don't have the bandwidth to like fly to to Wyoming and talk to you know, the airport that got fucked or just like or it's not your thing and like you do a different sort of thing. And I'm like it would be ideally, And I think The Times even did a push for this where they were doing like a newsletter when everyone when everyone in media was doing like a newsletter thing.

Funny, the idea is like, all right, now.

We can sort of everyone gets subscribed to a newsletter, it can riff or whatever.

I don't I don't know where we like net out there, you know, like I just don't know.

It was like a classic manager who doesn't write thing. It's just like, why is this newsletter big? Because it's a newsletter, right, Like, damn, that's so smart. Let's pay a million dollars in salaries to people to do the same thing they're already doing, which we were already emailing people.

I can get a million dollars just in emails.

It was just the aggregate spend there. And I think the problem is that it's I go back to my point I just clunkily made, which it's like the people at the top are not fucking writing, They're like pell whatever.

This is what I was going to say, is that when I came to the verge, as you're going to say, like I did not expect he is like really in the newsroom and he is writing all the time, like we have this little thing that says like someone published an article this in the articles have been published today, And he is always on there publishing.

Stuff, which I've never had that at a newsroom, which is crazy for him. I know he's a unit.

He is and I have my problems with him, and one day we'll hash it out. But otherwise he's going to come on, I know, love that yet to email me back either. I don't know why. It could be the things I say in all seriousness is the Verge is actually a great example of Yeah, the top person should be writing all the time, because if you're not writing, how the hell do you know what writing is? What do you don't even know what good writing is? You don't even know where You can't even have the same

Yeah, the Virgin Boxer fire at this.

Sorry to say gen z terms, but they're really really good.

They're busting. Moment came out of my mouth. I was like, oh God, don't worry. When I say it, it sounds.

No cap.

But I think, like, that's that's why I came is because they let you write weird ship. They give their weird writers like all the bandwidths to do whatever they want, and Neili is in the trenches with you writing. He actually was the one who pointed me towards the Google glue story. He was like, this is fucking crazy, and it was like my first week and he's just got like, I'm sorry, I agree with that's fair enough.

Stay out of it.

We don't know it's too much you write.

You remember Google AI overviews. They if you say, oh the pizza thing, yes, fuck yeah.

Blue story, and that was like, yes, that was awesome, but yeah. So having someone who's like in the trenches with you is so cool because you get to learn from them and he can tell me like, hey, like there's a story over there.

I know it.

You know. It's one of the reasons Wineburger was so great. He didn't write once, and I'm gonna just chotting at Matt Weinberger the entire show. By the way. He did write, he did a little, he didn't write enough. One of the greatest he was running so much, which is a great tech story but also a classic Weinberger story, is he did a review of the latest Madden at the time without understanding the rules of football. So the whole thing is just to be like, Okay.

Why is this very funny?

But honestly, I actually think that kind of stuff's extremely It's good. I would love to like get like a line cook chat, GPT and just record what their thoughts, like someone just disconnected for whose regular job is a real job which actually like sucks and like involves them having to deal with people like not like a.

Party, I actually but again free.

Ideas the whole show. I would love like a We're currently in a big studio and I would love like a tech like a tech radio show, and I could live in here be very damp keyword damp and no cap. But also that's in the site. By the way, the Internet cable story is Josh Diseaser dz I easy a. I will put that in the notes as well. Incredible story and also scary that the Internet is run by

What crime do they commit?

I was actually just thinking of what guy currently writing. No, no, no, no no. It's a fair thing. They say, I'm not critical enough of Apple. But the one story I want to do, and I think this is one that everyone needs to be honest. Have you used the app store recently? It's extremely bad. It is so bad, It's so very bad. The apps that chart in some sections are just flat out dog shit, ad filled nonsense. The discovery on there is nakedly corrupt. The people in the app store editorial

That's weird. That's like a featured thing and not like a charting.

It is the first thing when you open the apps. Next Amazon Music, Top apps right now, TikTok Max, Disney Plus, Snapchat, Amazon Music. Next one.

I went to one of their south By Southwest parties and sud Group love there. That's my only the.

Most useful part of Amazon Music.

It was, Yeah, the most useful part of Amazon Music is an offline. Next thing up is Toka Bocal World. That's a they make at least one hundred million dollars a year. Next one up Squadbusters, which is a game by super Cell Multimer millions of dollars. Every single thing on here is just making the rich Richard. The next is Bluey, which is literally worth billions.

Isn't that a dog?

I saw?

I saw Bluey at a Clippers game. Drunk Off is asked, leering at the cheerleaders. They kicked him out for being too drunk. Didn't even make it to the half anyway. Jokes about blueish side. That's a that's a real problem. That is a real algorithmic problem that everyone is facing. But everyone's kind of in the tech media for good reason. Folks in the open AI focused on AI AI AI AI.

What they would get?

I mean, there's no fifty there's no infrastructure. I mean, tell that to the media executives. That's what I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying you're wrong, like what you know, what you're describing is the actual problem. These executives don't want to invest in that. But if the argument is what's important, yeah, then this is important. It's more important than anything else like Google search, app stole, These are the things that matter. But it feels that the media is engineered towards clicks, which is then engineered towards pleasing Google, who is currently fucking up the news media. It's just we're in this

It's really funny because I would always, like very vociferously fight back against the like clickbait sort of argument, but like, I don't.

I think it's harder to depend against these days because of how how traffic has declined and how like I do think metrics play a role across Like every outlet has an SEO person who is like paying attention to what is trending or whatever, you know, and I don't. I don't think it's and and I'll I will make the distinction that I don't think are outlet and I don't think most out it's our only driving traffic as

And you know what's also happening. Immediately after I stopped talking, You're going to hear an advertisement. And when you hear that ad, you're going to be like, damn, that is so thematically relevant. Everything it says that wasn't embarrassing to add ed didn't feel really annoyed. It didn't make a specific rule on his reddit so that people don't talk about it. That ad was so well placed. An eye, a new customer of this perfect company will love it.

You like it, right, Yeah, Like m Coca actually has riffed one this before is like that the idea of like you made that headline for people to only click, like you want people to be interested in your story, like there's gonna be. There isn't an art to it, right, It's not all.

A thousand words and you know a couple of words.

You gotta figure that out totally.

Yeah, And it's funny as well because I actually think that the take media really needs to realize that other than chasing clicks. It's like tech stories get a shit ton of traffic. That alone should be a sign that there's magic to be found here. And it's not from doing the same thing, and it's from I think that there is a way of dressing up like software communities.

Oh that's what That's what I did for almost two years. That was my job, was talking about software developer communities and it was rad.

Yeah, I don't know.

I think The Verge is actually the first time I've worked at a publication where there are no KPIs or like traffic goals or sub schoals. No, no, no one bothers me about that. So it's it's sick, yeah, because you know a lot of people experience that, and people get yelled about that, like you you you could get fired over not reaching traffic. So I don't have to worry about that, which is great, and I think that's really healthy for writers. I wish more writers had that experience.

It's does the times have stuff like that?

No?

No, I mean, like I think it's like general vibes, right, like if I fucking didn't put anything out in a month, then like whatever, then I might get a phone call. But like, as far as I can tell, or at least, I don't get called about it.

But I don't. I don't wait, like I've never seen yeah exactly, but I which time, yeah, short time.

I do think that like yeah, I do think there is more attention to paid to like metrics now, but like and I, oh god, I'm just thinking back on like my super earliest days of writing, and they.

Have screens back then where they showed like ranking authority. I heard that when I first started journalism.

I was like, what, you have a tyrodactyl that used to do the typing for you and turn to your living Mike is the same age exactly.

Sorry, I know I get to be resident old guy but like it now. Even then, you know, I was still having to churn out more, but now it's just

I'm trying to complain about it too much.

I was in the trenches when I was in college, so I would I was doing all my college classes, and then I was also writing for BI and they have famously and well publicized very stringent goals about what you're supposed to reach. And I was in the trenches, but at least I was writing stuff that was really fun. And also it was my first job in journalism, so I thought that was the norm.

Just get them all through.

But I think, like speaking to why isn't the tech media getting stuff right? They have really really, really really rich and powerful people who own their company, and then trickles all the way down to people breathing down your neck and like, have you written ten stories this week?

The Messenger is a great example of this.

The poor messenger gone, I forgot all about that.

Now company forgot until just now, Horri.

You're not dead yet, which is not an actionable threat, but the Messenger is a great example. I think of a problem that faces the tech media, which is, again, the people making the publications aren't really the ones touching them. Fink le Stein, formerly of The Hill, a hundred million dollars off selling The Hill to I assume a private equity firm. I did say it in a previous episode. I forget everything I say the moment I say it,

I love them so much.

It's so cool to get to see them succeed in the way that they have and just completely smash it and deliver the best fucking reporting.

What Samlely, Cole Cobbler. They're all fucking brilliant, and they're brilliant because they're all Internet weirdos. Yes I mean that affectionately.

Yes, Well, on the Motherboard DNA exactly, Sarah Derek, they all used to work on Motherboard and that was like mother Board was one.

Of the real good and weird internet sites before Vice killed it.

But yeah, all those people at the top.

Host I wanted to be them so bad.

They're great too, super great, No, seriously, like one of my heroes Edward im Guiso Junior.

Yeah, good guy.

I wish he wrote more. I love his work, but also another I don't know. He's a logic. I believe now he's gonna be on the next Better Off Live.

Oh that's cool.

He's so cool.

That's right.

But it's it's like guys like that having an opportunity a place like Motherboard is so good. I want to see like more of these clustered publications because if you really look at the old school tech Crunch, and I know people have fairly very negative views about Michael Arrington. I'm not talking about him as a person because all of that sucks. However, the original days of tech Crunch resemble four oh four media so much more than they do tech Crunch today in that it was a bun.

I forgot the creamery like a black or the ghost of it is a black from here and he.

Would just like hang out. They'd be like, you'll never believe what I And it's great This is why I say gossip.

Because this is what it is.

Is what it was in the oldest, Like ooh, I've heard that Inside Partners is going to do this. It's inside Partners. Is that one of the VY people, one of the big vcs, he'd hear some ship and and that would be an even poor cars dirty but even he did the same thing. Sarah lazy but it's okay, that's a bit me and she did some good ship. But nevertheless, she.

Did a really good book, actually the once You're Lucky Twice You're good. You should read that.

That's the thing, shouldn't.

I need to learn way more about this old school.

I mean, we've fought a lot over the years, but she has ship. Some of her reporter is really good.

But also, this is what my longer term vision I'm just saying it on the pod is. I want to rebuild solidarity within the tech media. It's a very lonely industry. Everyone's very much an island. Even the Virgin which I love. The Virginal podcast is the Virgin people talking to the Virgin power stuff every four and four. Same deal. I love four and four, but the same deal, and it's everyone's bulkanized a bit, but also it will allow for delicious beefs and gossip, and I think that people love that.

I just had this conversation today. Actually, grumm.

I do think that we It's like journalists can be often very catty and insecure, and that is.

Like the biggest culture shot. Getting into this.

I was like, fuck, this is like like throwing elbows. I feel like I got like literally elbowed in the teeth so many times by people.

I'm like, fuck God, but it isn't.

Yes, sorry, I was more agro I think when I was younger, and I get it, Like I think I'm also like because I work at the times, there's a whole weirdness around that and like people often with good reasons in the past, like we didn't used to like not link a lot. Now I think we're way I will spend time that. Yeah, I mean I get it all the time. But I think I was trained, probably because I came up and blugging to like link and like credit and I think our desk is very good

I think it's a nice thing.

That's something I do with lots on this show, because like I really am, I've got and it's.

Easy to like shoot on someone's stuff and then they fucking they'll remember that, right. I remember, you.

Can't do one you have to do like, okay, you can't do just being nice. I realized that is an option.

That I it's down here on the low road.

You think I've gone lower, I will, but there is a degree here of like, of course I'm like, I will criticize Jesus, fuck that word up. But there's so much good there and I think the like four or four. The reason I bring them up so much is they're the're fucking like they are, Like, I love sharing their work. Yeah, Defecto, which Irillas is outside of tech David Roth. Most people like Ray Rato, like you've got really like specialized reporters,

Did I think that The Times is uh? This is my personal view.

I think that they can be ambivalent on personalities, like in one way, like it serves them a lot to have columnists who like people will go for you know, this is a different generation. But like David Brooks or Tom Friedman or these folks who have been coming there and drive a lot of traffic or talk to the president and like are important in some capacity. But at the same time, I think Times folks are Times. People at the top are always like the brand is first, right,

Do think there's a tension there.

But in this one thing that I think have expressly said outwardly is like in an age of Ai producing mountains of bullshit, one advantage we might have is knowing that our reporters are people and explaining that they have expertise and like going into them. So like it, I do think there's like a tension there. I would love if they let us be a little more free.

But like that is the tension, and we all see it.

And I think that's kind of what you give up for the Times, is what it seems like as the outsiders, like, Okay, if you want to work for the Times, you're gonna have to give that up. And that's it's not just the Times. The it's like you know, like a lot of of the top publications. You you're not gonna have that voice because of what they do.

It's different.

What's funny, though, is I'm old enough to remember that this was the model. David Poge at the New York Times, Eric Benderoff, I think it was at the Tribune here was a bray. I think at the Boston Globe you had tech colonists and they were insane. You still got like Jim Rossman, I think that that was morning use mixing up with someone. Nevertheless, you have a few, but regional tech columists used to get paid insane money. M

I remember that. I don't even remember.

I've heard Felix Salmon stories.

This is like passed down from older journalists to me through generations.

So the Fusion days, Oh that was great?

What was this? We need to tell you?

Oh my god, Well do.

You remember the Fusion Do you remember Fusion?

Does that?

I remember? Like the logo?

I mean you shouldn't because it was literally like a production of Telemundo that wanted to do is tech company Olsen.

Or h ship.

There was a bunch of cash Hill there. Kevin Russ work there, and what they did was uh uh And they hired Felix Oh like just magical. So what they did though was like come in and throw like money

No, Gizmoto got bought by Telemando.

Media is not just fun anymore.

Fucking human centipede of shit that is media industry.

Again. I will have drinks every city I'm in. Everyone will get drunk together, and then everyone will be mad at each other and then we'll have stuff like this. But it's I think it is partly also the remote work movement.

And I've only been a remote journalist, which is crazy.

You're are going to an office.

I will, but like, I've never had a newsroom never.

Oh that's a that's a bummer.

Whenever I say that, people who are journalists before COVID or like that sucks.

I feel like, also though that is somewhat romanticized though, because.

You're because you're anti you're anti.

Oh, it's not even a remote work thing. It's just the newsroom of Future Publishing when I work there. Eight shit, don't live in England anymore. Future Publishing there was there was just a mood of depression in that books. It was a depressing place to work run by us White.

Sure.

And so then you go into the BBC one or the Bloomberg one, you're like, Okay, I fucking get it.

Like I would be, oh, yeah, the Bloomberg one sounds awesome, but the BBC one, at least the old one.

I haven't been into the Big Tower too, And I feel like that it'd be cool if a tech newsroom exists like that. It just in the world, just practically speaking. But also I don't know if one. I guess all things that you kind of had one.

I mean, we had like a we were like weirdly remote hybrid. We had like a work space or something in Soma, but I think that like, like, look, it's we are romanticizing it. But I do like and I fucking work from home literally all the time. But but my the thing that I miss about working at headquarters in New York was just like you walk around run into people bullshit.

I know.

I actually do sometimes come up with interesting things or like share tips and whatever just because you saw someone.

And I do think there's.

Value there, No, there is, there is definitely. And I was to say box as a New York office business insider does fortune does.

I just have always lived in California my entire lifests and I'm not moving to New.

York updated long term a heads that I was recently releasing the psychiatric Ward for example, That's where we met those people. Like they may remember, I was very pro remote work and I still am. I've never been his anti office at all. Yeah, and that is like the reason I do these in studio ones is because remote is fine. But this is cool. This is energy, Yes,

Right, Well, I think the thing that gets lost from like again, I'm older than you and like I came up in like where remote work was not a thing, not really, and like now I am very much a remote per in a lot of the time.

But like I do at least appreciate the.

Time that I had in I think it means something very different when you're when you're younger in your career rather than you're older in your career, and I forget that. Like I was in the Times headquarters from twenty fourteen twenty sixteen, and that was super valuable for me because like just the whole like fucking face time with who you should know or what everything is real? You know?

And I will like again, I'm like missed the remote work. But my first job was at Pcson Magazine with Future, and as miserable as that place was, it was because of the management, yep, not because of people like Will Porter and Steve Hogatine, people I work with who were there to tell me to stop playing World of Warcraft

Oh, that's awesome.

But actually it was really valuable because I then went and had coffee with Steve Hogerti, who then said he's right though, and that also hurt. But it was also the fact that I could go back to Will and actually have a conversation about what the fuck he meant. He's a wonderful edity, genuinely like and having that experience and then kind of like having the moment being like, oh my spirit, but not having that on my own at home, separated from the world, I actually think was

We have that solidarity.

I think, like physical physical I have adapted as a journalist just fine. I would have loved a newsroom that would be great, but I adapted. I went to tons of events, I've met tons of and then I've also like reached out to like more established journalists a ton I'm like, hey, can I get your advice on this? All the time, and people my age, I think, like I definitely have that as harsh as it is, like especially in San Francisco, like, for instance, people on my beat.

I guess maybe it's more defined. I'm just trying to find, like an excuse to throw a party.

I think I would go to your party.

Yeah.

The last time I saw Mike at a party actually there was a thing in December.

But let's wrap this up though. So I've really enjoyed having you both here. Thank you so much. Mike. Where can people find you?

I mean, I'm writing occasionally at The New York Times, where I work for my full time job, and then on Twitter, but more on Instagram too now just like google my name and then you can find on my show. So I wrote a book which if I would love to plug. It's called super Pumped The Battle for Uber And if you don't like reading, you can watch the show, which is on Netflix.

Right off the show, Thank you very cool.

Yeah, I'll just say I love that show so much because I had such a huge crush on Jesseph Gordon Levitt was growing up. And then I also didn't know Travis Kalenick was such a dick. That show is awesome.

J g l is also a lovely human being, but.

Oh my god, I love him, so you.

Can be yeah, doubly secure.

And problem with that show was it felt like they cost the wrong guy as Travis. There's a guy who just looks exactly like Travis Kalenick who plays like coming.

Oh yeah, it was funny.

A lot of super employees were like, they should have Kyle Chandlers.

So good. I ate that up.

Okay, you can find me on Twitter x at Kylie Bites. I'm on threads at Kylie dot Robinson not Robinson with an N in the middle, no en And then I'm right the Verge full time about AI and tech stuff.

And you can find me, of course on the Better Offline podcast. Ask your parole officer to listen to you one podcast. I'm so sorry, I promise I don't think all of you are criminals. I love you all. I'm saying it like I love you all, like the menu if you remember that. Don't know if they let you watch that clink, but thank you so much for listening everyone, Better offline dot com. You'll then get the same liner that plays off every episode. Thank you for listening, Thank

Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

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