A Zone Media.
Welcome to the final episode of Better Offlines coverage of the Consumer Electronics Show. I love you all, all right, so we've made it everyone, we're on. The final day is Saturday, January eleventh. We have all we conferenced ourselves out a bit. We had a wonderful positive masculinity day, went out and got brunch, we went got massages. Tonight we're going to go get dinner. But we're here for kind of a kind of an epilogue episode because yesterday I thought was going to be less of a close,
but it turned out to be a real finale. So really this is just about what we've learned at the CES. So Phil, what have you learned at the CS? What is it?
It's an ergonomics thing.
Okay.
So we just got massages, and man, I feel so much better than I did five days standing on my feet on marble in my multi decade career of gambling in this fine city, and it's many beautiful slot machines that we've previously discussed. I've gotten a sample a lot of rooms, a lot of decor, and one of the things that I've picked up is the more high end your room is, the less carpet you get, so you get a lot of marble to stand on, which is
awful on your feet. And I came back and I earlier today I went looking at the pit bosses and the dealers and realized they're standing on marble too. I cannot imagine trying to work an entire day standing on that outside.
So what was the lesson you learn?
Though, Auci, the richer you are, the more you're going to hurt for style.
Hm hmm. Yeah. The problem is people keep thinking about rich and hurt a little too much at the moment, and I don't really want to fuel that conversation. So the thing is more comfortable shoes. I guess you need. Possibly, Yeah, we need to get you like a little kitchen pad. Actually that might I'm saying that facetiously when that actually might be the solution to the problem. Because Phil has
been tending bar. If you're for some reason choosing the epilogue episode to start with, right, you're my kind of freak. By the way, I am joined by, of course, health physicist and bartender Phil BroadOn, who has been I think you've served well at least one hundred drinks this week.
Oh well, based on the stacks of my cups well more, we're probably in the two hundred range.
Yeah, and you've seen most of the tech media. It's been lovely. Phil has been working his ass off and we're all very grateful. And most of the tech media is grateful. I say that as if some of them wouldn't be, And well, maybe.
Like at eighty six from my bar, if they were.
Yeah, that's true. I don't think that's the case. We've had like an unrelenting horde of very pleasant, lovely people. And talking of that, mister Edward and Grazo Junior joins us for our last day here. Hello, Hello, how you feeling ed fighting the itis? You got the itis?
I mean, I have an unconscionable amount of food in my belly.
Yeah, we fed, we fed. Just to be clear, I fed the boys up being gorged and we're only doing more of it tonight.
This morning and more. Yeah, you can do it. Did Yeah. I woke up with heartburn in a slightly collapsed look to inflate again.
But other than that, you know, average better offline lessener, just one step closer to the end. I just want to be clear, by the way, I feel great. My Masseuse told me that my body is actually doing pretty well and that I need to keep doing yoga. So the answer here is that the more you speak on the mic, the better you feel, more powerful you become, the more power you accumulate over it over the course of this. But I think it's been a very It's been my favorite CS ever, and Phil at this point
has been to eight with me. It's the eighth YEP. And I think what was really fun about it, other than the fact that I got to just do a weird radio show for like thirteen hours, is that it's given me a lot of hope about the tech media. And not that it was like blackpilled or anything, not that I was like, oh, this is all bad, but you talk to people, the people d Gadget. We have three people from n Gadget or that Max Journey from Reuter's and all of these people who are like so
passionate and actually rave. They gave a shit, and they gave a shit, and they were strategic about how they gave a shit and the way they talked about it. And I think you listeners can kind of agree with me. It's it's really heartening to hear others talk about this because I feel like the byelines that some people arounder they kind of rob them with that passion.
Yeah.
The actually some of the best talks talks interviews for our reporters that came to visit to talk about the things where you I'm not going to say you crowbarred out of them for tell me the best thing you saw, the thing that made you happiest when you were on the floor. The thing they saw that invariably made all of them happiest seemed to be when they found a presenter on the floor with a booth who also gave a shit. Yeah, so it's not people do love tech.
Yeah.
If you have come here and you hate what you're offering, uh, we're gonna notice.
And we're going to talk about it and we will talk about it.
But we love tech, yeah they if you're selling it, you need to love tech.
Yeah.
And I think it's easy to give into the kind of cynicism of the moment because the people run in the tech industry and no edge. You feel this strongly. It's like the people running it don't give a shit about tech. Mark suck Book doesn't give a shit about Facebook. He's talking about how oh yeah, we need more masculine energy, just mescalin, mask escaline. I'm sure masculine.
Pushing mescaline down there.
And it's just sad because it's this kind of repressed, toxic masculinity where it's about dominance, even though his platform only dominates by being a monopoly of sorts. It's just very sad, and I realize we've been very male weighted this week. It's like it's been positive masculine experience. We've had good friendships here, but also just people have all
genders who have been here. I've had a great time because it's been about hanging out and actually talking about the stuff that intrigued or made you happy or made you very angry of course, and I think that it's cool that we got to encapsulate that. It feels like collecting years of cs into one.
Yeah.
So traditionally, everyone who's come to get a drink, I've always asked them, tell me the thing that scared you. Tell me the thing that you thought was dangerous to see if I needed to call the fire marshal or more likely, in the case of this show, drop a line to the FDA. But the thing that I had never asked, and I'm glad you were asking everyone on the podcast is what what made you excited? What made
you happy? Because that's something I never did, and I realized that may have been not great energy I was bringing to the bar in past years.
I think within the and as the real ED heads, No, the real Zitron Law people, they'll know. But the previous form of this was a p offen thing. Me. Look, Kevin, what we'd come out here, would have journals over, wouldn't do any pitch in, but we'd have them in and have a good laugh with this. It felt like we were actually building something cool and so Ed you had fun?
Right, mm hmm?
Yeah? Did you actually like finding? And it's okay if the answer is no, Did you actually find anything that gave you any hope? No, that's fun, I mean no, But talk to me about that, because there's nothing wrong with that. Answers just yeah, what was it?
I mean?
I think you know, I am not the market demographic for a lot of these things. I have little to no interest in filling my home with gizmos, gadgets or toys. I'm not really Also, as a result of that, in need of souping up the grid in my home, the appliances right, adding smart layers to them. I'm not too
interested in healthcare management. I mean, most of the things that I like and I'm interested in there are things that like I can make myself hands on, don't really require the intervention of smart or algorithmic enabled.
Wi Fi, various apps and such, you know, and so on that front, I'm not too interested.
And then there's the other you know, there's a part of me that though, is very interested in tech just to see what is being developed and offered to other people, especially people who are in need of things, people who are disabled, people who are makers, people are inventors, right, they are just interested in creating something and offering it to other people.
Cool.
But you know, I think CS is also not the place for me to find hope, and that because of how much of the tech either it simply does not exist or is in a prototype form that, as I talk to more people, is synonymous with like perpetual delay and times not even like a not even a release or release in a pair of back form. So I feel like it's more so I come here. I didn't come here looking for magic. I am surprised by how much offered just did not connect with.
Me, right because you weren't coming in here just as a po height. When we talked about this rich and that you were like, I don't know.
Yeah, I literally didn't like you know. I was like, I was like, okay, is the ces. How much of CS is, like here's an actual product I can pick up try, and how much of it is like we are selling so that another business can notice and buy it from us, or an investor can back us. And so learning that the division and the amount in which any many of these tech products fell or the category in which many of these tech products fell was interesting.
I mean the best part was for me just like conversations with people as a chance to both reflect on what we were being seen or what we were being shown and what we saw on the floor and one had been seen by other writers, and then also just talking about the tech industry and media coverage in general.
I feel like that was the part that actually having analogously gave hope in the sense that it's affirming to hear other people, even if they are excited about things that I'm not talk about the limitations of the shortcomings of something that you know, when I was presented it as an object, felt like something that was like a staple in the industry that everyone loved and came to and understood, had its own integral role that was not to be two nice too much.
Yeah, you know, it's a weird show as well, I imagine for the first time, because it's like when you don't know this format, this place is kind of insane. Just to map this out for the listeners. So we're in the Venetians, so we have one of the best places to be as far as the regular show goes in that we have a hotel, the Venetian that has the connected Sans ex Post Center, which is now called the Venetian Expost Center. This is where a chunk of
it is. Then to get to the LVCC, you have to either take an uber and then walk a mile. When your uber guy goes, I'm not dry, I'm not gonna wait, man, it's gonna be two hours. You then walk probably a quarter of a mile to a door and at that point you realize it's the wrong door, so you have to then walk another probably point one miles to the badge person who will then tell you
now you make it's the other badge person inside. Then so at this point you spent like an hour and a half getting there, and now you can get your badge of other places. Perhaps you arrived with it. Well, now you can walk through like a what's probably about three miles of walking a day just minimum in the main hole just.
To no, it's three miles walking just to get to it.
And then yeah, okay, but I mean like just spending the day in there. And so after this you just see like either the largest television or the biggest lie, depending on the room you're in. And it's I imagine it's kind of strange for me.
I think I'm just.
Kind of numb to it at this point.
Do you remember the advice that I gave you for you asked you've been You've done this before. I feel what should I go look for? And I haven't done this in a while, But just one of those when you see the hall of TVs unless you really want that, know that you've this is nothing but that keep moving through to look for something else. Because a giant TV is a giant TV. And we've talked about a human who exists only to wave behind the transparent one but
the odd take us back to erconomics. The thing that Robert Evans said to me at the bar for the best thing about the TV pavilion was not the TVs with incredibly cushy floor so that he could actually rest.
His feet from a pile carpet is pretty sweet. But just to give you an idea, if you have never done this before, a good.
Chunk of it feels like being in a best Buy on Black Friday.
Yes, that's actually it. But if no one's shopping, they're just loitering. Yes, yeah, and it's so weird as well. But I wouldn't have done it with anyone else. It's just interesting to see cees bounce off of someone, not because they're not trying, but because they've realized the edifice of cees, which is, hey, check out all the stuff we won't make.
I would have driven a test off the bridge if I had to come here myself with.
With like an outlet, yeah, you know, like a real person.
Oh my god, Especially because the mode of engagement to be much more different. I mean here had felt like I got the chance to kind of drift around each day.
I felt like I was focusing on a different part of the floor based on what I did or didn't get to do, based on conversations I have with people, They're like, oh, I actually was really interested in this, and I think coming in with less preparation than an outlet might have had for me in the sense that like wasn't honed in and hunting for and prepping over how to how to think about and how to engage with like the fintech. It was more like I stumbled
upon them. Oh, what a pleasant surprise. Oh they're talking about AI agents. Let's talk for a little bit.
You know.
It was it felt like I got to experience it both as like maybe a consumer might and also a bit as in my capacity as someone who's wondering, Okay, if the presentation of this is for the consumer, then like, if you're walking around in it and you happen to know a bit about the industry or various products, what would you think about it if you're also if your if your intention is not just to like reported back to consumers so that they can get like a repackaged form of what's been presented here.
This is one of the things I was really excited to hear yesterday from Cherylyn about the process that n Gadget does for how they prepare to go to the show, which right, it's fun with clean eyes to have none of that just to encounter it face first, smack into the wall. But that process from any gadget very cool. Y I had no idea, and I'm happy I heard it, and I'm happy that.
The listeners had it as well, because gone back to the black pill thing, like, it's very easy to get cynical about the tech media, and I have been extremely critical of the tech media, but then you look at the people we've brought in. We had Kyushanod from Las Vegas some for example, such a delightful surprise, that guy, young guy. But also getting into the labor stuff, the fact you've got someone who writes about tech because they're
not because they're a tech report. But then you look at and Gadget, a place that people myself, it was just a gadget blog, and they actually really tried, and it's interesting to see them. There's so much personality in the tech media that just we had no I really I knew some of these people, but I didn't know how bad they cook. A lot of them, like all of we didn't have one bum guest.
Also in terms of the eight years we've done this from my point of view, in terms of providing respite two journalists journalists, and indeed it's sketching, had journalists getting respite in the suite for a chance to breathe.
Yeah, that's it.
For the first time in all these years, I had had people one saying I'm so happy to be back. I'm so happy to get another drink for you. The five years of COVID, I've missed you. And also Gere just.
Relaxed and get I just want to say I can get. Evis is just insanely talented. I am so happy we got them on so many episodes.
I saw geras fairly high energy you might have noticed from some podcast, But I watched Garrett just sort of take a breath and slump into a chair for a moment.
They could be off and I think that's nice, and I think of better Offline is such a bizarre podcast. Looking at Mattasowski's like, yeah it is. My producer heard one from Mattasowski. It's funny. This show started off as a joke and then it became something. You know, It started off as a thing where I was talking about how pissed off I was about wet brothers like the
winkle Uses or the rot economy and everything. But as we get to see, well, well, well if it isn't the winkle Us brothers, but it's it's interesting how it's growing because I've been thinking about CEOs quite literally for a year. So Robert Gare and I were sitting around at Spego where we were actually going tonight taking my boys out. Got to treat them. That's the one thing, like, I'm lucky enough to have this podcast. I've been treating them,
treating everyone. It's lovely. But in all seriousness, I was sitting there with ROBERM and Get and just kind of like slightly worried both about the podcast. But I got that done. We don't need to belabor that. I really should stop repeating that. In fact, anyway, I sat there
and like, shit, how am I gonna do? Cees? And I spent the year in phil and I have talked about this many many many times, and the thing that I think that we needed to do, which I think we mostly did, was not just be like, hey, here's all the shit that you see at the show. Your hogs but it also try and capture, even though people kind of hate it, try and capture the fact that there is a week long thing in the tech media where everyone comes to one place kind of parties together.
Then does journalism ostensibly, but like there's this whole thing that's been virtually uncovered. It's just this is like Aspen for tech media, except you. Really, I don't think as many dark thoughts when I think of it, and it's and I think we successfully got that. And listeners, I would love to hear you feedback. You've been quite generous with it so far. Nineteen nine percent of it loved it,
one percent Calm down. But it's in I think we have successfully captured phil what we have always captured here, which is, hey, here's just one fucking place you can sit down and like try and like process the things you have been hit with over the last week.
Oh yeah, Also, I just remembered it as I took a sip of black Ludden Energy courses through me Again. I want to take a moment to give special thanks to someone who almost never gets thanked, that has made sure that this suitet worked.
Mothers give it up.
Thanks mom, But also twenty eighth floor housekeeping staff at the Venetia and Venetian. Big up, particularly Alice. Alice, you have made sure that I've been able to keep the filthy pig style that I keep making of the place and people walking through look nice. I could not have done this without you, Alice.
Thank you.
Alice is that who wrote the note?
No, that was okay. There was a note in here that said their old dead head run and that would be Robert Evans the the like like the tricks to God that I work for, mister Mixey is the world? Yeah, actually yes, Robert has missed the world exactly like a Crisp and Glover figure that shows up to be like podcast time.
Now.
Alice is the one who gave me the extra ice bucket. Alice gave the welcome note to this room.
Okay, because it said because I noticed it, it said Alice.
That's because I wrote her name down, okay, to make sure I did not forget right.
Please don't kill me, Alice. But in all seriousness, now the Venetian's been lovely. It's been so weird as well, just like standing up this thing. I don't know if everyone listening to this is like, look at my Instagram or my Blue Sky. I hope you have I need attention, but also I want you to know how great this setup has been. We've had this recessed area in the Venetian and honestly, it's just been extremely heartening for two reasons.
One having some solidarity in this fucking tech media. It has been such a rough year for so many people. Twenty twenty four was an insane year. But also right now the tech media feels and I say this having done a thing where I yelled at them, but Lord almighty, I've never seen less solidarity, but I kind of saw it this week. Everyone seemed happy to see each other when they got on the mic together. They were generous with their time. They were excited to vibe off of
each other. There was no like vacuous competitiveness or anything like that. Everyone was so giving with their time, not just with me, but with each other. They were shooting the shit. They were happy to see each other. It was great, And I think that this is a time where as things get a bit rough with big tech and within society, this is the time to pull together. And I'm happy that whatever this week has been, which
is insane, by the way, just the entire idea. I hope that that has created that, and I hope that you the listener have heard that. And I was about to say, you appreciate that, I don't believe. I mean, I hope you've got that vibe.
So you you talked about the vibe people together here, talking and happy. So effectively, I'm with the bar, I'm running the green room for what you're getting to hear over here. When people leave here and the next crew rotates in for your listening pleasure, the old crew does not immediately bolt for the door. They actually sat down with each other and they enjoyed each other's time.
I did notice that, And it's cool when we like cycle out people like ed like you go back to have a chat with them, and I realized, like, you've been like somewhat unimpressed with the actual stuff, but you seem to have had a good time with everyone.
Oh yeah, I had a great time with everyone. Yeah, I had a great time with the people.
Yeah. And I think that it's it's about the people, but it kind of is like I'm here to see
the dude AD's gizmos and the apps. No, it's to pull together the tech media to have a conversation with people and try and actually talk about what happens here, because as of what was kind of getting earlier, this place like Vegas is a fascinating place in and of itself, so we see us even if the stuff is kind of the same as last year, even capturing that mood is kind of important and bringing you fresh was I'm really happy.
Yeah, No, I'm really happy you brought me in. I mean, this was definitely an imprint experience. It's definitely left its mark on me.
Would you have even dreamed, coming into the getting on a plane coming to Las Vegas that you were about to meet the cryt readers for two of your favorite authors.
No, a lot of crazy.
Yeah, that was.
That was such a wild turn of events for listener who don't know they are. Father Gabriel and Phil are krit readers for Christopher Rock Casino and Charles Strauss, who are two of my you know, favorite writers right now. Charstrusta sci fi Christopher Rock Casino does is doing like a science fantasy series Sun Eater, which you should definitely
check out if you are interested in romans in space. Yea, but yeah, space romans that are in the deconstruction of Dune and Star Wars, and also without like the turgent pros of Foundation and the Foundation series.
These are the happy surprises that happened when you just sit down start talking.
There was a great moment where Robert Evans and Father Gabriel and Edim graz So Junior was sitting around for like twenty straight minutes and they were having the They were like, yoh, but hegel and they were like, no, naming all these philosophers. And I was just sitting there and I think I understand what Babo my cat feels like when I can talk to it, because I was just looking at it, just like wow, I know these names, but they're connecting them in ways that clearly involve knowledge.
And then after twenty minutes, I just said, fuck, is this what is like? What's it like being smart? Anyway, that's the experience I bring to the sweep. But honestly, it's been kind of fun watching everyone just talk. I want this to be and I want you the listener, to be pulled into this and to kind of feel this because putting aside the very obvious and well documented side of CS of that it's full of shit that never goes anywhere, and everyone's kind of annoyed. The taking
full of people. It's also full of people sorry for you were there. No no, no, I'm yeah. Ed is a well drank and well fed as we all are. But also we have had five straight days of just like our brains being punished.
No really, I think this might be a massage recovery as all the tensions holding me together, they removed it. And I'm feeling real.
Good being my stomach for five hours and I was rubbing into thought you.
Were just accumulating wealth.
I ran to this like the Buddha booth. I mean I ran to the sweet last night because I was gonna because.
No, there was a crisis. It had to be addressed.
Moving on, we're talking about how nice the solidary where no, no, no, no, no, there was solidarity there.
No, I will not.
I was just about to do a whole thing about how like We've had a bunch of guys in the suite, and I think for the most part we've done good positive masculinity without talking too much about our bowel movements. I've got in his way talk beginning and then the
beginning with the vulnerable. I'm glad that we've got rotors quotation on the Horny check like, but also I'm tired of people on the Reddit asking to well for one, but I think for the most part, we've I hope we've shown like a bunch of guys hanging out have don't don't have to be like nasty assholes. Just we've
not been tearing each other down. And I want this because this industry is very male dominated, and something we do want to do better next year is I want more woman in this more diverse voice is like this thing. And I know some of you have brought this up, and it's a fair criticism we had. We really only had like three woman on there, and it's not enough. And so we're going to do a much better job next year. And we've already like making plans for this
twenty twenty six. We are going to improve this show on that level. But also I think we are going to try and in as much as we can sync up on coverage with these outlets and actually bring them in. Because the big thing is is like better Offline's pretty big. Now I can't even say how big because I am told not to, but it's big. We have a real audience now. And the thing I think we can do with this show is, first of all, show you, the
wonderful listener, what's going on in the tech industry. And what's going on in the tech industry is not just the thing you see on the page. Even people have criticized those people behind the byline are held by these restraints of editorial bullshit. But on top of that, there's only so much do If you're like writing about laptop, how much we know about that person. So I want this show to be that now. And when it comes to things like CES, I don't know where else they go. I'm not going to.
South By, No, yeah you will. You gotta do it. You gotta see how Crypto's taking it over.
Don't want to That sounds awful, It is awful. My friends aren't there. It's the people.
Wholly white will go.
Maybe Molly White's great, but I would rather just like fly to Boston or whatever. Yeah, but nevertheless, this show is important to the tech industry. Yeah, and yet it's completely uncovered what actually happens here. There's a lot of stuff about this robot does this, and this vacuum has an arm now, but not the actual vibe, not the actual feel, and it's interesting to finally capture that and put it in a bottle. Yeah.
No, that's interesting because when I was trying to look over covered to get a sense of what to expect, it really was just people talking about past products and not like actual morale, energy, enthusiasm, lack thereof impact too.
Larger society and programs.
As well, But even then, the tech industry and the tech media, it's full of these weird, wonderful people we've had all week. And I feel like, and if you the listener disagree with this, please let me know, but it feels like people have responded really well to just hearing the people behind these bylines and actually talking about this, and that.
Those people got a chance to expand on what they saw and what they felt in a way maybe they even constrained from doing for a while, and not.
Even for malevolent reasons. It's just that, Yeah, if you are writing a gadget blog and you write about gadgets, there's not really much space for editorializing someone. We didn't get on with. Michael Fisher, one of my favorite YouTubers, and he has done a really good job of expanding his YouTube I sound one hundred years long. He's got one of those YouTube channels with the videos now Utebliss. One of the light boxes captures his form. But he
was here. Sadly missed him going to see him for dinner. I think next week. Nevertheless, he has done a really good thing of explaining kind of the effema around his travel, how like travel weighs upon him, how there are emotional contexts to places he goes, the societal parts. He did a great thing where he was in India talking about
the smog, for example. You can do more with this medium, and I think that there's so much more interesting things that we could do even with this show, because let's be honest, you've got I don't actually know how many actual reporters are here because the list includes every single possible person who could ever mention words. But I would say there's at least one hundred members of the tech media here, like died in the Wall, actual tech media.
And the fact is there isn't a damn place where other than like Twitter and Blue Sky, whether actually you're actually able to get to know these people. I want better offline to be that on some level it's not just going to be that it's not just the kind of mix of stuff, but I think it's a helpful function of what the show could be in the future.
So something I've while I don't go to the floor because I'm attending something that I do get to do at Defcon and at Photonics West is watching for governmental entities that are actually attending the show as well. And it's a tradition at Defcon to play the game spot the Nark, which is if you can find the member of a given government agency and they've started playing with it and actually having official booths and saying, can you guess which agency.
I work for?
If you do, they'll give you a challenge coin or a pin. But conversely, the deaf Con people will give them a shirt for the narc Right to wear. But our governmental agencies, our regulators are actually just like me, interested in what's coming that I should be prepared for. I like finding them and seeing what are you looking for? If I could find on one willing to represent the agency.
That we talk to the FEDS inside here, though we don't let them in here. I mean I will not allow we're not having the government agencies in here. I will not You can talk to them outside. But if you if you remember, if the Feds, please don't come to my show. I don't think that's going to be fun. Now, if they turn up, I'm gonna have a word with them and then say please don't, please, don't keep me well.
Actually, the hard part is the ones that are actually doing the things that are of interest. They can't talk. They're constrained by a public affairs office.
Perfect, wonderful. Then they have no reason to be here then, but but.
Their their interest is actually the public interest.
I should listen to the show. Then they do.
Well and are generally happy.
Okay, I hope they are, because at least the ones I talked to, I really don't want to get a put in the goo lag, but putting aside the FBI's clearly active interest than me, that's a great phrase to say out loud. I do want this place to be without the feeds, an actual place where journalists come. And I know that there are some people who've reached out to me and they've said they weren't able to make it as such, We're going to remove We're going to
move stuff around next year. I want to make sure there's more room for people, and mister Anguezo Junior sounds like he will come back.
Yeah, I would love to.
Mister Roth will as well. I will be here and Phil is stuck with me. But I think that the thing I want to do differently as well is I want to really plan out the groups because and I must be honest to the listeners how much of this came together in real time. But also I think you'll indulge me because what an insane thing I did here like this has been very crazy and I cannot believe that. I cannot believe how well it worked, and it's thanks to you guys, And of course i'll produce in Matasowski
who built this whole setup. But it's interesting because something like this could actually be useful for people to understand the mechanism power within tech, because I want people to
realize how much of it's bullshit. Sure, but how You've got journalists coming out here who are actually trying to find a way to cover it within the boundaries of journalism, which can be quite difficult because most people can't come on here and say, yeah, most of the shit I saw was bullshit and that was broken and this is shit not necessarily because of the byline, but also how do you write that story? How do you actually put that together? How do you actually say CS was full of dog shit?
And please read the rest of my words after this.
And I'll tell you the way you don't do that. Being sponsored by Delta Airlines, I will I will voice my displeasure about mister Nilla, mister Nilla Pattel.
He is a dirty, dirty man.
Some management questions aside, Nill had a chance to do something interesting at CES and somehow I did the more interesting thing, which is disappointing. But also if you're being if you bother SEO of Delta Vacations, who what are you doing? Like? Or sorry, you're interviewing them to what end? To what point? And I feel like the people covering this show have got such a shit deal. But the ones with the largest microphones other than my own don't seem to be.
Full disclosure as a Platinum medallion member for Delta Man. Those are the emails the delete the fastest.
It's just frustrating because people at the Verge. And I'm not attacking the writers because Victoria's song was amazing on this it feels like the people covering this show. Some of them have potentially given up a little. The Verge should not have a live show where the summation of it starts with a fucking interview with the CEO of the worst part of the Delta experience.
The Mini CEO.
And I saw people covering the Delta stuff just blandly, and it's.
Like, did you check out the interview? What was the interview itself?
I have not listened to the Verge cast in some time.
Well, I think, how you can cover that excitedly?
I think that No, actually, let me check my notes. I did listen. It was let's see, it was James Tayklett, the CEO of Lockheed Martin and who said that I love the Verge. It's my favorite publication. And then they were surprisingly joined by Handword chairman Sung and Kim, who said, how the Verge is the best place to find out about bombs. That is all the joke. I apologize, but nevertheless,
it's I've had that written down for a week. It's just frustrating because it's like Leapatel, he can fucking do a better job, And honestly, they could be better things done at CES. The thing we've proven in the last week. Not trying to put myself on the back or anything, but I don't even need to say that. The people who have come on have been really interesting, and I
think there's more that we can do. I don't even know what whether to call myself part of the tech me You're on a fucking pr film during the day, write a newsletter where I regularly make typos that really shouldn't be there. I just I don't know, man. But nevertheless, it's like, there is more to be done, and there's more to be done in the next year. And I think the way everyone needs to go right now is this move towards the question we've been asking a week,
which is why does this have to exist? Who is it for? Why is why? And I think ed your frustration with this place is that question is so often not answerable somehow, Yeah.
Yeah, deeply so. I feel like or it is a constructed individual that's not necessarily real as the tech industry is.
Like so far, Yeah, they're solving for an imaginary or are that.
Search for an investor? The product is them?
I mean, I think you know, the the tech industry has got and better in the years of constructing the constructing the image that there is the person that wants what they are offering. I mean, I think the most recent example of this that was pretty bloigant was the construction of the crypto voter, as facilitated by fair Shake, and they're pretty massive lobbying campaign to punish any candidate
that seemed remotely anti crypto, to resounding success. I think, like almost like a ninety plus percent hit rate for winning races where they put up ads against or against anti crypto or obstensibly anti crypto or insufficiently pro crypto candidates.
And that latter one is the really dirty one. You don't love us enough, kiss the.
Boot in the imaginary customer, and.
The imaginary customer there's this is the idea of a crypto voter. Someone who is motivated by a desire to have a safe home for their crypto assets. They wanted bank with, they wanted in a bank that they would typically use. They want their dollars to be more easily transferable between or to these things. They want to have more assets that can be you know, that they can
trade in their dollars or their tokens for right. And I think similarly, sometimes when I see, you know, I think about, like especially the Global Pavilion for Crypto right where it's like these people are sitting here talking about how you know, for your brand, one way to increase its authenticity has objectified, the company said, is to offer a limited edition goods that will add an air of rarity to your brand.
Yah.
Yeah, they're all tokens right and you know these The idea here is also when you listen to them closely, they're not saying like they're not actually saying there's any use value. What they're saying is that we realized we have a use case for justifying our service, which is that you can make it more your thing, more exclusive in partnership with us if you cut us a fee
and you generate a useless token. I feel like there is a lot of this where, you know, solution in search of a problem, or a business in search of an opportunity to cut to extract a.
Fee rather than solving a need.
Someone once asked me if I was willing to do limited n F n FT coded release labels on Black Blood of the Earth bottles so that they could have someone could have their very own NFT run of Black Blood, and that would be an email I would delete it.
I would I would take such pleasure from watching you enter the blockchain.
That was the point they wanted black block, black blockchain, coffee.
Block, Blood of the Earth.
I hate you.
So slightly different, slightly different direction. Do you actually like any technology? I don't mean this in like anything. You seem to enjoy your phone and such, like you enjoy connecting with people.
Yeah, I mean I like, I like my phone, computers, screens. But most things I'm just like, I'm not really a cool Yeah, trains are cool. I mean if we're talking about, for example, non digitally mediated, I mean, of course we're talking about digitally mediated. I really have to be because I'm not interested in like productivity hacks or saving time person Yeah, you know, for me, like it's like the things I'm interested in software and programs you know that
have helped me. I'm interested sometimes in you know, I have a friend who I you know, I have a friend who I learned coding with the you know what was in there like maybe ten years ago. What in like, Well, I don't talk about it because I don't like, uh doing it, because I don't really care for much and because of the reason I don't talk about it is because it's always fun when I have when a tech and gets a little mad at me, and I was like, why is this guy who doesn't even code? And I'm like,
what about me makes you think? I can't tell me? That's cool though, So, you know, especially with the more the more recent wave of tools of generative tools for coding supplements, I mean, you know, I've kind of been inspired by like writing from like Brian Eno and you have getny more is off to try and create like small applications that help us learn other languages because I've been trying to learn Mandarin for a long time, right, you know, And so stuff like this is fun and interesting,
like little trinkets, little little you know, short desktop apps or you know, all small little programs that helped me in my daily life. But I do I'm not really interested in like some overhaul.
It feels like what you're describing is the purest form of technology, which is why do we use the computer to connect with people or connect with ourselves a bit more to actually true love what we want to do more to enhance ourselves. Because the reason I'm asking these questions is because there are some fucking idiots I'm just gonna skip to that part. Who would just be like, well,
it's just a hater. Yeah, and I've got the same thing as an heir to his hatter m Otherwise, can I say a terrifying that he might finish his point and then we'll get to you. Don't worry I am a hater in that.
I think that a lot of times.
The greatest hate is love. Yeah, right, please continue.
When someone is talking to me or trying to convince me to integrate some algorithm or digital program into my life, what they're usually talking about is a way to like offload some of the cognitive burden and not actually cut through a stupid task or to not come up for example, like you know, me and my friend we've you know, you've getting more is an inspiration for this what he talks about in one of his essays about how he uses generitive tools to try to create a group of
language programs so that he'll try to talk in another language or answer questions another language, and then based on the weaknesses, it will generate kind of questions and exams and stories that will test what he has shown a deficiency in.
You know, there's like elements of how one structure is a sentence.
Maybe, yeah, grammar, sentence structure, ambiguities of descriptive language. I mean, and this is stuff that interest us more than the way in which we typically have been trying to learn the languages, especially you know, because I'm doing I'm trying to do Swahilia as well, so Swahili and Mandarin, and he's doing Spanish and Pastrin, and so it's like there are a lot of the apps that are offered in a lot of the programs, a lot of the methods, or we simply either don't have the time to do them,
or the the gamification that's presented is bullshit.
Will do a lingo style, you know.
So I'm if you can figure out a way to do it that is more closer resembling how a human human interaction does it without trying to convince me that I need to offload onto some sort of platform and or some ecosystem. Sure, I mean, I'm interested, right, but most of the time you have to make you have to make the case, and it has to be a convincing case for why an algorithm needs to be introduced
into something that I'm interested in using. And I think that most of times, if you actually spend time talking with the people about it and interrogating it, it doesn't past the sniff test.
Right.
This is where the solving the language problem and the human interaction level. This is where I have to say the terrifying words. I love Uber mm hmmm, because it did one thing that they are not proud of, that they do not tout as a thing they can do. In general, Uber is tals and to regulated right environments. It destroys taxi networks, never mind adoption of tech technology that taxi should have done to approof service. Uber obliterates
that good ecosystem. However, in unregulated markets or ones that are highly corrupt and barter based where I don't know, such as such as Ukraine and most of Eastern Europe.
Now your experience with this was pre war, though right.
It was pre war in Kiev. I do not speak Ukrainian, although my feeble language skills of I speak English. I have technical Spanish, I can have commerce Spanish, but don't ask me to talk about poetry and art.
If you make two Spanishes, I call back to another anyway.
But when I got done playing in the Great Patriotic War Museum, and it was snowing, the first snow of the season in Kiev, and I did not feel like doing my normal thing of walking all the way across the city just to enjoy and absorb the city and on international data rates. I downloaded Uber on the principle of I just want to get back to my hotel. Uber was able to, within its app allow me to arrange a ride negotiate. Well, I didn't even negotiate set price.
Yeah, then negotiating for you.
It negotiated for me for a set price that is firm, and get my destination correct with a driver. Neither of us spoke each other's language, and it was seamless. That is a thing they never tout, they are not proud of, but they do everywhere in the world, and with time, I did that in twenty sixteen. Their language translation on either end of their app has only gotten better.
But the problem is that you're completely right, except for the fact that Uber also had a bigger opportunity they didn't do, which was if they'd have grown sustainably and set real labor rates and demanded benefits, Uber could probably be a fifteen trillion dollar company.
Oh you mean, actually be profitable.
No, I mean beyond that. If uber had slowly grown and done it more than minimum wage and use their scale to actually commit themselves to getting real benefits rates for employees and grown like that, they could have actually grown to be probably the largest employer in the world and actually given people benefits. So they chose the other.
And what sucks is that the reason they did what you just described, which is genuinely good, is so that they could find new people that spoke other languages to extract from.
That was the first time I called an uber of my own.
I remember, and it sucks that they didn't do it to make sure that you could do the thing you did.
It was just like we had to get that extracion. Fuck it makes me mad with the sign of the simultaneous You made a human experience I couldn't have otherwise had.
But is this not CS A lot of ideas that are made up that could could be for ostensibly good reasons, But I've really done for the investor, for the theoretical customer. Everything we've describing that's good here is about actually connecting the smart cane as glib as I might have been about it. People genuinely will find good in that I'm excited about.
The medical devices. These are all good. And I mean, and we've also you know, we've talked before about huh. There are lots of algorithmic things I have nothing to do with the consumer that are helpful, you know, that are on the back end of helping test things or discover or do trials for various compounds. Right, as long as you don't put you know, I'm very skeptical of the generative tools that are being deployed for this, but you know, more traditionally, when they're done for this, this,
you know, is something that's interesting. I mean, there's a host of applications that we wanted to sit down, we could talk about. But you know, for me, the thing I don't hate, I mean, the thing I don't like and the stuff I just like kind of informs my
my antipathy towards it. My ludism is like, you know, usually when we have a venture capital firm, a private firm, or well capitalize individual, hedge fund, whatever pushing a certain type of technology innovation, it's because they're interested in prioritizing the startup form, which itself already closes a lot of doors because you have to adopt a certain product, you have to adopt a certain value structure so that you can pay the software tax or the you know, the
cloud tax, or you have to you have to figure out a way that you're going to you know, organize labor so that you can have contractors and employees and all of these limitations. There's more energy being spent on or the barriers to maximizing potential valuation and profitability in market share instead of the actual technological innovation itself.
So we are at the end, I'm afraid, And yesterday you got my kind of teary goodbye to everyone, and to give you an idea of what the room was like yesterday, it was full of people and everyone was yelling and it was very fun. That's where you got the yes chef from. We have had an insanely cool crew of people, of course led by mattis Houski, our producer here, but we've really gone through a lot of the tech media and the thing I'll say for next
year is I'm going to have more of them. We had twenty guests on this damn show, including the people in front of me as well.
I have more liquor to serve.
Indeed he does, and it's fun. It's also it seems like the listeners. I want this to be an active conversation with you. You're on the redditch, you email me. I love it. Please get in touch on Blue Sky, you get in touch on Threads. I am not listening like I just want to be clear, like I look down on you, Instagram, DMS, Absolutely, Threads not so much why I'm a hypogram. Anyway, this has been an amazing show and I want to hear from you. But next year we're going to be a bit more structured, but
also it's probably going to be the same format. We're going to have what diverse voices, and we're also going to get into more definitive subjects. I think the one thing I could have done, but there are a few things I could have done better. One thing I could have is subject matter and having the subject matter experts. We have people like Max Cherney and Da Vinda Hardware who really knew their chips, for example, we can wrangle
that coverage far more specifically. But also there was something fun about having the Slop of the Week just kind of wash over us because I wanted all of you listening do kind of get an idea of how obtuse a conference is. And I know some of you go to a weird conference is and such and thus you have this experience. But Phil, thank you for being up bartender, thank you for serving everyone. I'm I really treasure your hard work. And let's do nine next year.
Hell Yeah's something I'm very proud of that I started trying to kick in the sixth and seventh time we did this was making sure I had non alcoholic options available for people. I had more than ever available this year, and I'm glad I got to give it to people.
Who yeah, because this is not a place where you have to drink.
Because most people who don't drink can't drink.
Yeah.
They usually feel very asked out when they go to events at conventions like this, and I want people to feel welcome.
And you are here, like, I don't care if you don't have any substances. Maybe you don't even have food.
You don't need even gas station mushrooms.
Want to say thank you Robert for the gas station mushrooms you bought. And I didn't take them because I don't just eat food.
Off the floor or gas stations.
I mean, but it was that I introduce you to some of my friends. Yeah, I drug of freakins. We would call some of them.
Okay, that's that's a new term. That is a series of words that I will be unpacking for some time.
But a pleasure. It's real fun.
And this is kind of the I was about to say, the end of the rope. It's quite the opposite, the beginning of something cool, because Phil and I have been doing this for so long and some of you have got in touch and like asked, it's this was a sweet where we brought our friends in from the tech media, and now it's turned into something really cool that I look to grow and turn into something weird and fun
every year. If you're a remember of the tech media who was not on here listening to this, get in touch. If you're in New York, for example, we will be doing what you heard this week very regularly. Every other week. I would say, get in touch. Maybe it's not the next episode, but I want a chunk of the tech media on there. I want I want this. The tech media is full of such insanely fun and weird and wonderful voices, tons of people so good on the mic
that you wouldn't know. I want to help with that. I want this to be something Phil.
And if you're coming to the Bay Area for some reason, I'm always happy to give the Phil Broughton Tour where I point at Manhattan Project things that aren't there anymore.
Oh you're on the bay.
Yeah wow, wait died how many hours and we just didn't reveal that?
Oh yeah, well yeah, I live in the Bay Area and I work at a university that is somewhere in the Bay Area.
I'll be I'll be there twenty eight to thirty first. Also, if you're in the Bay Area twenty to thirty first, you should come to my co host Jathan Sadowski's book launch at City Lights.
Jathan Sadowski, of course, the inventor of the Habsburg AI term.
Yes, I got the air appand of the Absburg embardy yell at him and say this is a stereotype.
A man. I am so jealous of that that happened. I am so upset that I've not had like AI and and AI very nice. Those are my two favorite kinds. Right but also ed on Gwaiso Junior, thank you so much you have battled through this week for your first ces in. I would say the conditions have been chaotic, but I made it. He made it.
My stomach made it.
He cooked. But also you're going to see in the next year exactly how much mister Gwayso Junior does. He is incredible and we've been so lucky to have him.
Thank you. I got to meet one of my favorite writers.
Thank you.
I've been enjoying your work for so long.
I really appreciate that.
It's been awesome.
And I will say this as I say every time when I meet you. Man, I also got to have drinks some of my favorite writers. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a genuine pleasure, I imagine for the listeners, but selfishly for me mean too.
I wouldn't have done it with anyone else. Guys.
Hell yeah, and this is the thing, like this has been very guy way too. But also I want all the fellows to listen to remember that you can love your male friends and talk about how fucking rockin they are and how much they've supported you all week. You don't have to be so fucking self conscious. You fucking cowards compliment each other. Also, Ed is like the best dressed man I've ever fucking every fucking day. I'm just swearing too much. Ed looks just amazing. I look pretty
good too. Don't say it jealous of a suit. Yeah, he actually has like the most wonderful I wish I was this cool, but nevertheless, we've had an incredible crew
of people. I want to start by thanking Jared Newman the Freelancer, Henry Casey of CNN underscored Ednie Demeyer of the Autono Cast, Father, Gabriel Mosher of course of the Church, Jesse Ferra and Michael Hale of your Kickstarter Sucks, Tom McKay of It Brew, of course, David Roth of Defecta, Matt Binder of Mashable, Max Journey of Reuters, Gara Davis, and Robert Evans of course if it could happen here, Phil Broughton, who's sitting across from me, of what I've
just written as miscellaneous, Devendra Hardowa, Carissa Bell and of course shirln Lowe of ng Gadget Victorious Song of the Verge, Kyl Shnard of the Las Vegas Sun, and of course Mattasowski are incredible. God damn producer, you have been an
absolute legend this entire time. We couldn't have done it without you, but we also could not have done it without iHeartRadio, Sophie Lichtermann and of course Ian Johnson, who has been He is literally dealing with the wildfires at the moment, and he is we like, we didn't hear from it. It's like, oh crap, shit, And actually I want to do a shout out to Miles Gray of the Daily Zeitguy's the iHeart Radio show. He literally lost everything.
I'll be dropping a link in there. Don't feel obligated to, like many people going through many things, but if you can donate, please do and thank you for me. This has been a very personal podcast, a little too personal, and I have no idea if it's good or bad. I really don't know. You seem to be happy, but nevertheless, this is you've all kind of witnessed my own personal journey with technology and technology has been part of my
love since I was ten. I think and you've all been wonderful, and I think you like this and I like doing this. I love doing this. We will be back in a year, and I'll get to that in a second. We'll also be back next week. We're going to have better offline radio in New York. I get on a plane to New York on Sunday. It's going to be a complete nightmare, but no exciting. It's an adventure,
it is, and I just love cooking. I could probably do another hour of podcasting, but you're thinking, please, please, no more, no more. So we've had too much. But in all seriousness, we're going to be back immediately with Paris Martineau and of course Jeff Jarvis of twit and their various associations. But we are going to be back in a year. And I've learned so many ways to
do this. But the biggest lesson I've learned, and that's right, it's friendship, is that everyone came together to support this show. Every single goddamn person who walked into this suite walked in here in ten I'm actually discussing what happened, and everyone was so fucking wonderful. And I think now, of all times, it's really easy to be kind of cynical and definitely pessimistic about the tech industry and say that there's nothing to redeem it really and everything is growth
of all costs. But I think that's reductive. I think it's something where you can look at the most powerful people and the things being talked about and lose the magic, which is as fucked up as the algorithms are making things as detached as we might be from whatever social networks. This week has proven, at the very least, that there are human beings that truly love the computer and love the things that they can do with it and the
people it connects with. I hope I've given you something in this week, and that's proof of solidarity with your fellow human being and seeing that within this extremely boring, arduous show, at times where most people are lying to you or thinking about ways they could put you in a position to lie to you more egregiously, there are people coming in here who are slightly excited or very excited about a smaller laptop because they're able to use the computer in a different place, so they're able to
do more with their lives. And as Ed said, the algorithms he used it he could potentially use for more accurate linguistics, he could learn more about a language. There are many wonderful things that technology can do. And I've been quite emotional, and I think you like it, and I fucking love him, but I'm emotional because I'm surrounded
by people who really give a shit. Emotional because every single person that's come through this door, that people running, even the people visiting, have shown that there's not a single half asser in them. There's not a person that I've spoken to who has not deeply and meaningfully cared about something in technology. And there's nothing wrong with you if you truly love what technology has done for you. Nothing about this podcast is about trying to fracture you
from the things that you love about it. If you're pissed off, I'm with you about the way it's being done. But what I hope I've shown you in the last week is that there are people that care as much as you do, if not more, people that love it as much as you do, and people who share your frustration with the way things have gone. We will be back next week, and we will be back in twenty twenty six for the Consumer Electronics Show. If you listen this long, I do love you all, and I'm so
grateful for you listening to Better Offline. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com m.
A T T O.
S O w Ski dot com. You can email me at easy at Better offline dot com or visit better offline dot com to find more podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's youreaed dot at to visit the discord, and go to our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so much much for listening.
Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.